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hugheses · 8 months

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literally years ago i started transcribing this and then never got around to finishing it but finally did with some help from oomf. pls tell me if you notice any errors!

below the cut:

5-3-21

AJ: We are so excited to have Ellen Hughes hop on the bus with us today. So Ellen, welcome. And to give a little background, you grew up in Dallas, which, a long time ago before the Stars, there were not- it was not a hockey hotbed, as maybe it is now. Played a lot of sports. You ended up playing soccer, hockey and lacrosse, three sports at UNH, made it to the NCAA semifinal game in Lacrosse in 1987, inducted into the UNH Athletic Hall of Fame in 2012. You ultimately pursued a graduate degree at UNH, and while you did that, assistant coached for both the soccer and hockey teams. Ultimately, you made Team USA for the 1992 World Championship, where with Cammi you won a silver, named to the tournament All-Star Team. Two years later, at the Worlds in ‘94, you served as an ambassador to Norway's national team, went on into broadcasting. You were in the booth for when Cam and I won gold in 1998 with CBS and then a sideline reporter for the 1999 World Cup of soccer. Your husband, Jim, is a former hockey player and coach, has worked for the Maple Leafs organization. And of course, you are the uber matriarch, hockey mom of North America because you have three superstar sons. You've got Quinn, drafted number seven overall, plays D for Vancouver. You've got Jack, who is number one overall with the New Jersey Devils and of course, Luke, eligible for the draft this year. So welcome, Ellen. We can't wait to catch up with you.

Ellen: Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for the nice intro. I know, AJ, you see Jack here and there with the Islanders, could you remind him of some of those things, that I actually had a life? And Cammi, I know you've been nice enough to have Quinn over for dinner, not this year because of COVID, but maybe you could give him that whole intro again that, I did something other than just being their mother.

Cammi: Well, you know, it's funny. There is probably, I don't know what it was, maybe four or five months ago, you had sent me a video that you guys found, which we have to post on our social media channel here. But it was you as this little cute, blond, tiny little voice hockey player being interviewed in Texas, of all places, for hockey. Right? A woman, a female playing hockey, let alone kids playing hockey in Texas is so rare. Right? And I remember Quinn texting me and being like, said something about your skating, how bad it was. And I was like, little do all your kids know is that their talent comes from their mom. I've nothing—taking away nothing from Jimmy, because Jimmy was a great athlete himself. But you and Quinn play almost identical. And I'm going to keep reminding him of that.

Ellen: I love it. I love it. I usually get like just one word, dust[?] with things like that.

Cammi: Yeah, well, thank you for being here.

AJ: Yeah, yeah. But I want to start back with the fact that you grew up in a nontraditional hockey market. I know. According to USA Hockey, we’re not supposed to say that anymore because there are all—they don't really consider that anymore. There are so many with the Coyotes and the Stars and the two teams in Florida and Southern California. But when you grew up in Dallas, hockey was not a mainstream sport. I can imagine you had to have been playing on the boys team. Can you tell us what it was like growing up in Dallas then?

Ellen: Well, it's so funny because you see, you know, it's so exciting to see where the women's game has gone. And, you know, you forget how old you are and you kind of forget like, wow, that was pretty unusual what I was doing back then. And, you know, I'm even older than Cammi, so Cammi's older than you, AJ. Sorry to age you there, Cammi. But you forget that what we were doing in those times as young girls and how… you know, unusual it was, because we were fortunate enough to have parents that encouraged us and led us and pushed us and created those opportunities to play with the boys. And it's amazing to think that we did that and it seemed so normal to me. And my dad's been gone a long time, like he used to coach us. But I think about the fact that as a young girl in Dallas, Texas, a nontraditional market, to have a father that said, “Oh, you want to play hockey? Okay, you can play with the boys and you can go do those things.” And just how lucky I was to have a father that created those opportunities and supported those opportunities. And so it's pretty great. But we used to play down at the fairground. So, so people that know Dallas know that, you know, there's a fairgrounds downtown and the Cotton Bowl is played there every year. And there used to be a CHL team. So the old CHL. And so for us, it was very normal. I have an older brother that played and then went off to prep school and played at Deerfield Academy and then played Division three college hockey at Bowden. He could have played Division one, very academically oriented, and that's what he chose to do. So you want to do everything that your brother did. So when we were really little, we moved from St Louis to Dallas, and when I was in St Louis, all I wanted to do was play hockey. But in the state of Missouri, and I may have this factually not correct, but this is what my parents told me, that the girls weren’t allowed to play on boys’ teams in the state of Missouri. So when I knew I was moving, it was on my eighth birthday and my dad said, Well, it'd be great because you can play on- you can play hockey when you move to Dallas. So that's when I was so excited about the move. Like I could go play on a boys team because there was no girls’ teams to play on. And so there's only one team, if you're good enough, you play on the best team. And we would travel to St Louis, we would travel to Kansas City, we would travel to Colorado a couple of times a year and we would go play the best teams that we could possibly play. I just didn't understand at that point that was the world that I was living in, that that was unusual or different. So every once in a while I look back on it and think how fortunate I was to have parents that really not only supported it but encouraged it and let me really sow my own oats.

Cammi: When you were in St Louis, you saw the game of hockey around you. You wanted to play, you couldn't play. Did you play off ice then to be ready for when you moved and were like able to play or did you just start fresh when you moved to Texas?

Ellen: You know, I don't even remember. I was eight, so I don’t- I don't- it I must have been- I must have learned how to skate, but I wasn't playing. I don't really remember playing, like I remember running around the rinks with your brothers. I mean, you know how that is. You play mini sticks at the rinks, y’know. But I always wanted to play. I wanted to play everything. So, you know, I was just… and then off I went and I just started playing and I loved it. And I was fortunate because, you know, Cammi, you never went to Bob Johnson’s hockey school in Colorado, did you, in Aspen?

Cammi: No.

Ellen: I know, because I know you have a close relations with that whole Wisconsin crew. But every summer we spent the month of August in Aspen, and I would do the Bob Johnson Hockey School. So I actually think I did that like, at seven, before I ever moved, and they would always let me play. So it was Bob, it was Grant Standbrook, it was Jeff Sauer, all these people that, y’know, were so supportive of the women's game, Art Berglund who just passed away. And so I would spend my summers there playing and being groomed by the players that played with Tony at Wisconsin. It would have been their generation of players that were the camp counselors and that was right around the ‘84 men's Olympics. And a lot of those guys went on to play in that. So I think culturally that was exciting for me and that's where my passion grew.

Cammi: And you played soccer as a young girl as well.

Ellen: Yes. So soccer: really competitive. You know, we won youth nationals. And I was, I mean, it's crazy to think that I'm going to be 53 years old. And when I was being recruited to play women's soccer, there were 31 Division one schools across the country offering scholarships. And so Wisconsin was one of them. And I really wanted to go there because of my allegiance with that. But they had no women's hockey. So when we— [...]

Cammi: That's where I- me, too. I wanted to go as well. We would have been teammates instead of rivals.

Ellen: Right, at least for one year. I think you were a freshman my senior year. Is that right?

Cammi: Either junior or senior. Yeah. Yeah.

Ellen: [Laughs] So anyway, so the soccer side of things, you know, if you were an elite player, you wanted to go to UNC. My very best friend on the team growing up on my youth hockey, my youth soccer team was Carla Werden, you know her as Carla Overbeck, who became the captain of the team in the first World Cup team. Mia Hamm, I played with on my state team, so we were really good in those days. Brandi Chastain was my roommate at my first youth national team camp for soccer. So that was my, you know, generation of players. And I wasn't recruited by UNC, but I was recruited by some of the other top schools and I had this like, crossroads, where am I going to go to a school like UNH, where there are startup women's soccer programs, but yet I can play two sports. And they were offering me a full scholarship. And the crazy thing is there was no school in the state of Texas that was playing Division one Women's soccer. Think about that. Not a one. I mean, there was 31. I think there's 360 some odd schools, Division one programs at this rate for women's soccer. So that's how the landscape changed and that's how the lack of landscape really drove my next move.

Cammi: So you chose UNH. You played soccer and hockey, but then you also added lacrosse.

Ellen: Yeah. And the interesting thing about hockey is here I am, this girl coming out of Dallas and nobody knew about me. And as you know, Providence at the time, so all the Ivy Leagues were playing hockey and then we didn't have a lot of programs back then that were playing. So it was all the Ivy- it was the ECAC. So it was what, maybe 15 teams playing? How many, 22?

Cammi: Yeah, roughly 22.

Ellen: And so there weren't a lot of options. So there were so many girls playing that wanted to get on those teams. So I remember reaching out to Russ McCurdy who was the coach and saying, “You know, I'm being looked at by UNH for women's soccer, but I'm only coming there because I want to play women's hockey,” and he was like, “Oh, you know, you're probably not going to make the team. You know, we're a fully funded program.” I mean, you know how that goes, right? Right, right. Why would you take a girl out of Dallas you knew nothing about, playing in these, he asked if I was playing women's hockey at that time. And so I had- you know, I wasn't guaranteed a spot, but I'd watched them play, and my mom and dad watched them play. And I really, in my heart of hearts thought I'd be able to play. And they were a fully funded program and my scholarship was coming from soccer. And so, I decided that I wanted to do it. And he said, and I remember having Bob Johnson at the time call on my behalf. He called, he was at Wisconsin still, and he called and said, you know, she can play, she’s been with me every summer, and I really think you should give her a shot. So he said, okay. So the deal was, I was going to play soccer. Well all the women start with hockey, probably—when did we start, in the fall, like in mid-September. And they had the whole training camp, while I was still playing soccer until Thanksgiving. And so I said, when you get done with soccer, just come see me and I'll give you a week to try out, to get up to speed. So he really had no thought of me or like, there was no, like, ‘she's not making this team.’ So we finished soccer and then I went over to hockey and I remember after my first day he said, “What size states do you wear?” So that was like, that, that made me happy. Like that was it. I was on the team, so it was pretty good.

And then our women's soccer coach, Marge Anderson, was one of the most decorated women's lacrosse players in those days. She had played at UMass for soccer and hockey, and she was on the World Cup team for lacrosse. So she would take a couple of athletes a year because in those days you needed female athletes to play more than one sport, to really round out your depth of your programs. So she had encouraged me to come out and play lacrosse. I knew nothing about it. So our first year they had just won the national championship the year before, believe it or not. Did you guys know UNH won the National Women's Lacrosse championship? Different landscape in those days. So they had won the national championship. None of the Southern schools were playing. Nobody across the country was playing. It was a real Northeast-driven collegiate world. And so I walked onto this field and, um, let's just say… I wasn't very good. I could run, but my stick skills- and I learned and I did everything, and it was great, and we went to the Final Four, but I was out at that point. So everybody always says I played three sports like, I was on the team. I was, you know, three sports at that level. I was done at that point and I stuck with soccer and hockey after my first year. But it was a really cool experience.

AJ: Well, a kudos, too, by the way, to go back to something you just said, that McCurdy asked what size state you are. Kudos to UNH for giving you guys skates back in the 80s. I didn't get skates in college until my senior year, which was the fall of 1998. That was the first time I got skates bought for me. So that's, that's pretty good on UNH, I give the Wildcats props.

Cammi: Well, Ellen, you know what? So, Russ, I actually- I was. I was the same, a kid coming from Illinois. So, such a similar story where nobody wanted to talk to me really, until someone saw me play when I went out to the East Coast, I just played with a girls’ team for one game and I got seen by Providence. Other than that, I called Russ. Same thing. No interest, but I got to say, Russ, and I know what he meant to you, when I look at all the coaches that I've been coached with, he coached us at the — at the ‘92 World Championships where you were named best defenseman of that tournament. He taught me a lot, not about, not just about hockey, but just like how to organize yourself off life, how to make your bed every day. Like, there's things that stuck with me from Russ from that one or two, I think, seasons we had him. He was a special guy, you know. You know, I just— he never gets any recognition. He's very unknown. But did you remember that about him? Do you have that same sort of view of him that I do?

Ellen: Totally. And I'm still really tight with him and Sheila. And, you know, when you think about it, for what he did as a male player, you know, in that generation, he was a heck of a hockey player. And then, I don't know what he did, but he left the game and did something, you know, I'm not really sure what he did and came back to the game, but for his stature to come back and coach the women and do what he did, and he coached tennis as well, and he cared so much. He was so passionate about the game, and teaching the game, and teaching away from the game. And he cared so much about the people, you as a person. And I always laugh because, you know, Quinn had Donnie, you know, your brother, at the NTDP. And he reminds me a lot of Donnie. I don't know if you feel that way, but-

Cammi: I totally feel that way because as you say, first of all, from a mental standpoint, they're both like, they help you so much with the side, the mental side, and also the skill based stuff that Russ taught us. He goes beyond the game and I feel, yeah, it's really interesting that you say that because I can see that as well.

Ellen: And it's just the, you know, some people have their skills and then some people like, have different skill sets. And I feel that the best of the best try to cover all the different skill sets and really get to know the different human being and try to push the buttons. And it doesn't work for everybody. Not everybody would feel that way, but he was an amazing man and still is an amazing man. And I also think it's funny because one thing that, you know, I don't know how you are with the kids, but this sticks with me. And I don't know if you remember this, Cammi, but the interesting thing is, I've seen my boys be taught that same lesson from coaches at a younger level, and I can particularly say the NTDP level is: get up every day and make your bed. You've accomplished one thing. Do you remember that from him? And then it was either Donnie-

Cammi: No! Always.

Ellen: Or Wroblewski that I remember had Quinn and Brady, like, make your bed every day. And then I saw with, with Jack and Luke. Like, “we got to make our bed every day because that's orderly” and like, little things like that.

Cammi: Well, I got to say, Ellen, that stuck with me for— still to this day, I think of Russ when I make my bed. I'm not kidding. And I tell the kids the same, like if you just… and it resonated with me. So like, I don't know, it stayed with me. It resonated with me when he said it. And then his… just his stuff about practicing skill. And we hadn't really done that so much, as an, I guess where we were at Providence. Like we would just go practice, but like, he was working on skill-based stuff. He’s a very smart man. So I'm happy to hear that you're still in touch with him and you felt the same way. But I love that we're both making our bed because of Russ McCurdy. You taught your kids that.

AJ: I obviously didn't have Russ, I obviously didn't have Russ McCurdy, you can see behind me in my hotel room here. So I do not make my bed every day. And I know the value of it, but yeah, no, never had a coach who told me that.

Cammi: He was pretty special.

Ellen: Then. AJ, I was thinking about when you said about getting skates. I don't know how you guys were, but how would your shot be today? Like when I was playing, like, of course I couldn't shoot the puck because we would take the old men's sticks that were wooden and they would cut them down for us. Like, how would I have any flex on the stick?

AJ: Right? Right. So stiff. And it's like, it's crazy when you think about that, and the technology. And even when I did get a pair of skates, when I came back after the Olympics and played at Harvard, they were so much lighter. They were just… the material and everything, and then you look at the sticks and it's crazy. I mean, I never played with the one piece that they have now, that was just coming out when I was at the tail end of my career. But I remember I tried them, but the puck was all bouncy and I didn't like them. But you think about how quick the release and all the kick point on those sticks, that technology's insane.

Ellen: Right? You also think about how great the women are and where they're at. Like we didn't go in the weight room. We did not go in the weight room. The weight room was not for women's sports.

AJ: Our coach actually, my first year at Harvard before Katie Stone took over, he actually thought weightlifting was unbecoming for women. He didn't, he didn't book us. He wouldn't let us go in weight room. It was a, it was sort of an off limits thing. So he was a lovely man. But it was… not appropriate.

Cammi: Well, our Providence College coach, John Marchetti, who I love, I have always loved him as a coach. We had to beg him to just get us to get in shape. He thought women, that was just the way it was at the time. He was old fashioned and women would skate from the blue line in, so we would have half ice practices. And I was like, “We're out of shape. Like we got to skate!” “You guys don't need to skate full ice.” And it was literally all great intentions. Wonderful man. But that's what he felt. And I mean, think about that. Like I tried- it blows people away to think that that was the way it was. But that's how we were viewed as women. We can't exert ourselves the same way as men. And we were begging him to.

Ellen: Okay, now I know why we won, then. Why we beat you? Because we skated. [unintelligible]

Cammi: You didn't. You didn't beat me. Did you beat me when I was there?

Ellen: I don't know.

Cammi: We won. We won. I think we went the last year. You remember freshman year. I think you beat us in the finals. I think we[...]

Ellen: I think we met four years. Was just super cool, but I only — I was there five years. Much shorter. One year. But we went three years.

Cammi: Okay? We went three years. So we must have crossed over. And you beat us once? Yeah, you beat us. Let's get into the hockey mom stuff because I think a lot of moms are interested in the landscape of sport. Our kids that are passionate about anything. And it typically it's like, well, we know the sports world, but I mean, nowadays it's, it's everything. Like, whether it's music or some sort of non-sport, a passion that someone has. We're always trying to get our kids to pursue excellence. And AJ and I have talked a lot on this podcast, how sometimes things are flipped a little backwards and we're a little bit out of skew right now with the way we push our kids and just how fast they're put through the system. And you had three boys that you raised with Jimmy, who are now… two are NHL superstars. One's on his way. How, what was it like in your house? How did it start with the kids? What were you like as a mom and Jimmy as far as like, having, cultivating that for them?

Ellen: You know, it all seems like a blur. You know how that is, right? You're in the middle of it, both of you with young kids. So you're just day to day. I mean, you're day to day, right?

Cammi: Survival.

Ellen: Right? It's survival mode. So for me, you do things that you enjoy or you- you teach them things that you feel like you can teach them, Right. So it's kind of a slight on me that I wasn't more worldly and wanting to take them to museums. Or maybe like I felt like I had do those things because like, ‘Oh my God, what am I teaching them?’ But you tend to do the things that you - you're trying to find activities. Jimmy was off coaching a lot, I had three young boys that were really close in age. So what do I know? What can I do to pass time and keep them active? It was kicking a soccer ball. It was throwing a ball, it was doing rollerblading, it was passing the puck, it was taking them skating. So for me, those were mommy and me activities, right? And then every once in a while I'd be like, you know, I'd be like, ‘uh, we got to do Kumon, we gotta do like - we gotta read.’

You know, academics was really important to me because I felt like I was so driven the other way that like, I didn’t want to miss out on the other. So for us, it was never this grandiose plan, and I'm sure you guys were the same way. It was more like, ‘be the best at whatever it is you're doing, work your hardest at whatever it is you're doing.’ Working the hardest didn't mean scoring the most goals. It was playing the right way, whatever it is, being a great teammate and working really, really hard and we always felt like the other would come.

AJ: Do you feel like with your boys having you as a mom, Jim as a dad, did they feel pressure to perform on the rink?

Ellen: I don't think so, because we never put pressure on them. We would put pressure on them to work hard and play the right way. I mean, there were days I can remember with Quinn when we moved to Toronto, we were like “Ah, he’s doing pretty good, he’s a pretty good little hockey player. This is good.” Like, hmm. And we were coming from New Hampshire and Jimmy taking the job up in Toronto and we got there and I remember Jimmy going somewhere and he's like, “He is not even in the top 300 players in the city.” Do you know what I mean? Like he was, this thing was not—

Cammi: Was that what age? What age is that?

Ellen: He probably would have been… I'm trying to think when we moved. So Luke was born six, seven, eight, maybe? He was in first grade. What grade are you in first grade?

Cammi: Yeah, about seven or seven. Seven.

Ellen: And we thought he was doing great, but we never cared. What we would just say to him, like, and he was on a good little team and we would get beat by Ryan McLeod, who just played with Edmonton in and, and, Strome was on that team, Matty Strome, the youngest of the Stromes. And those two were like, I mean, I mean, they would score five, six, seven goals and I would be in awe how good they were at a little age - at a young age. So what we would do is we would just put them up against the best in the spring and in clinics and have them chase, try to be the best you can be. It was never like, “why aren't you that good” or “why are you scoring” or - and, you know, Jack was a little bit different. He came in and he was playing up a year with the older kids, you know. And Luke, we didn't even think about, like, third child, he's probably benefited the best because we were just trying to get the other two other places and we didn't even know how he played or what happened. And, and I think that was the other thing with them. You know, Jim was so busy working that we didn't watch ‘em practice. We didn't, you know, I might drop one at a the game and try to get to the other one to the game, to get to the other one to the game. So they had to self evaluate at a young age and really decide how they played. You know, you guys are probably the same way with your busy schedules.

AJ: Yeah, it's interesting. I look at it like I'm at the Nationals right now with my daughter Jamie, and talking to some of the parents last night and they were asking me like, what did you think of the game? And we were talking about it. But they don't watch far more than I do because I travel. So, you know, they're asking me, knowing that I have a hockey background. But it's to your point, I love coming to watch my kids play, but I really feel like I can just watch them and enjoy. I'm not coaching this year and it's a really- it is fascinating because I do feel like my kids have sort of they'll tell me how they played and, you know, usually they're tougher on themselves. I mean, I think most kids or most athletes are probably tougher on themselves anyway. But when- like as a hockey parent, I'm surrounded by people and you see all the studies about the low percentage of players that will make it from youth hockey to even D-1, let alone the NHL. You have three kids, three boys, two that are gone first round. Luke obviously is on his way to the NHL. So at what point did you think they were going to make it? Like, was there a time like you're talking about when Quinn was seven and you guys were just trying to have them compete? But was there a moment where you were like, wow, our - our kids are legit?

Ellen: You know, there was a point where I said, All right, this is good. Like, they're going to get to Division one college hockey. Like, I was pretty pumped. And at the end of the day, there's a point where you say you can only provide so much information and now they have to have their inner drive. Now that's gotta kick in. And I think for each one of them, that was when they got to the program. So for junior hockey, I guess, would be the equivalent. And I think it's the every day focusing on getting better, doing I mean, living it, eating it, not liking it, loving it. Y’know? And there's kids who get better from 18 to 20. There's, you know, you got to keep getting better. Doesn’t matter if you're the best at 16 or 15. So I saw my kids take different paths, you know, and just staying to have fun and having fun. Having fun is everything, as you know. You know, I mean, it's got to be fun. I mean, Cammi, you have two sons who are elite little soccer players, but if they're not having fun, that changes their drive for wanting to get better.

Cammi: Fully and if it's not cultivated as well, I mean, you have to have the right people above you and leading you and coaching you to believe in just playing and not just playing for- to be this best. There's a lot of pressure on kids these days and I think about your boys and knowing your boys and, and getting to know Quinn better since he's been out here as a person. Your kids are such great people. They're so well-balanced. They're such they get it. Like when they met Reese and Riley, my sons, they get it. They look kids in the eye. They joke around. They look adults in the eye. I mean, there's- they're just great kids. The other thing I noticed about them and and before I let you comment is when they play, when things are not going their way, they go straight ahead, like there's no pouting, there's no emotion. I mean, of course, we get emotional about the game, but as far as like, you know, what you taught them, like, where did that come from, that confidence and that humility and then that just that drive inside to just keep going?

Ellen: Well, you are awfully kind. And, you know, it's like, up and down. You know how parenting is right. And, you know, for me, it's the competitiveness. You both were uber competitive, Olympians, got to the highest level, accomplished so much, gold medals. So you know, that competitiveness. So you instill that in your children. You don't realize that you're doing it, but it just organically happens. Right? I'm sure. And AJ I see some of the fun things that you do, but I'm sure it's competitive at dinner, whether it's, you know, Boggle that you're playing or - I aged myself. But you know what I mean? Or Jenga that you're playing or if it’s a race, or- everything is a game at my house! Like, Luke and Quinn this summer. We had a lot of time together and they're creating a game out of nothing in the pool. We're like - Jack and I are looking at each other like, ‘What are those two doing?’ Like, it's games and there's a winner and there's a loser. So for me, I think it's more about they really care about winning. They really want to win. And in everything’s a team sport and they wanna - They take it personally. They want to be the best that they can be to help their team win. You know, whether it's giving something up and feeling bad about that and wanting to get it back. And that's probably the same mindset both of you had as Olympians. Is that fair to say?

AJ: Yeah. I mean, I think that that is, you know, the ultimate drive to compete is something that I'm not sure can be cultivated. Right. I mean, I think you but what what is so impressive about your boys is that the balance that Cammi’s talking about. Right. That confidence and that drive to compete coupled with the humility and on seeing them being interviewed, seeing the way they carry themselves at a very young age, that that's what I think is, you know, you and Jim should be very, very proud of. But I do think that that drive to win and it's not win at all costs, but it's win whether it's the right way or as a part of the team. I think that that is something that can be very unique. And obviously they come from two very competitive elite athlete parents. So they were, they were given that at a young age. I was just reminded while you were- we were talking about Quinn, last year in the playoffs, do you remember getting a text from me Ellen, when I talked about in on the broadcast, I talked about Quinn, he was so relaxed playing the power play that it was like he was playing shinny hockey. S H I N N Y and I got blown up on Twitter that people thought I said he played S H I T T Y hockey. That I was like, ‘oh my God, the Hughes family hears me on NBC telling like’ and it was a compliment. I mean, it was like the utmost like, this is amazing how great he is that, you know, as a young player in the NHL playing with this sort of poise but also like freedom, he just plays with his freedom. And I'm sitting there thinking and my producer was like, “You can't use that term. That's such a hockey term.” Like, who doesn't know shinny hockey? But anyway, that was just so.

Ellen: So I laughed at that when I got your text and I think I wrote back like, “it's okay if you ever want to say he's saying the other - the S H hockey too.”

AJ: I would never say that.

Ellen: You know the game, you're allowed to say that and we would be just okay with it. We would probably agree with you.

Cammi: So when you're watching Ellen, when you get to watch your kids and I know I've texted you before, I'm like, I wonder if she's still up. But of course, you're watching the games when you're on the East Coast and you're watching them and watching the West Coast games, probably late at night. Right, with Quinn. And... can you relax? Like, are you feeling like now? Like you can relax? Is it still, like, feel intense? Like, what's the feeling that you get as a mom? You know, I know Luke’s on his way, but like, do you get to see you get to enjoy it all? Do you get to sit back and enjoy it?

Ellen: Let me ask you this. When you watch Riley play and it's a big game and [unintelligible], how do you feel?

Cammi: So do you feel like at every game - do you feel like that every game?

Ellen: Well, your logic tells you it should change.

Cammi: Yeah.

Ellen: But I think it's just your competitiveness. But I can tell you this. Now my oldest two are at a level where I don't get involved in the hockey anymore, I just really try to be a support system. They don't need to hear from me when they get to the next level. You don't know how many people are badgering them or bothering them or sending texts[?]. And you know, they got here because this point, they got here and they're driving their own business. They don't need to hear from me. Now, do they… Do they lean on Jimmy with hockey? Do I know a lot about hockey? But I just need to be a different support system for them. You know, I need to be an outlet for them and someone that's not going to talk about hockey unless it's something specific. Does that make sense? Like when I talked to Quinn today, it wasn’t about last night's game. It was about other things, you know, he's got enough of last-

Cammi: That makes sense.

Ellen: And he's got this - he doesn't need to hear from his mother, that that ship has sailed. Does that make sense? And I don't mean that in a negative st-

Cammi: Totally, because.

Ellen: It's just that's not what they need and, and that's not what I want to be that - be there for them. That type of support system.

AJ: I don't know how you got away without having one of them play goalie. I'm just going to leave it out there.

Ellen: Well, Luke. [...] Luke in net. and I was telling this to someone the other day, I mean, I got funny stories, like when you say, oh, you guys were great parents. I'm like, Oh, really? Like the time I showed up for this massive tournament with Jack and Jimmy's taken everybody's skates sharpened and I got everybody’s skate sharpened and he was off somewhere. I was going to meet him at the university. I'll tell you one story. So this is just typical. So their cousin was playing for B.C. and we wanted to go to a college game because we want to expose these kids that were growing up in Toronto to what college hockey was, so that that could be an option. So we took ‘em to see B.C. versus Michigan, their big cousin. We're driving down and Jack had this massive tournament, which we thought was massive as a you know, you always think these youth tournaments are massive and have grandiose importance, sorry, because you are at nationals and that is important with your daughter AJ. So Jimmy had said, I think Quinn was going to play in Michigan. And I said, okay, I'll bring the boys down I’ll get the skates sharpened and then Jack and I will leave after the game. We won't tell his coach that, like, we're getting into a hotel in London at one in the morning to drive around- around the lake to get to Buffalo for his 9 a.m. game. So I'm driving to Michigan first so he can see his cousins. And then whereas all the other parents are in Buffalo for that 9 a.m. game spending the night getting a good sleep right. Well I let him come watch his brother play. I left two hockey bags with Jim, of Luke's bag and Quinn's bag and I, Jack and I left after the game. We got into London at like one in the morning. We went to sleep. We got back up at six and off he goes for his game. When we get to Buffalo, I'm like, ‘This is great. I did it.’ And they're playing. I think they're playing Shattuck St Mary's and Oliver Wahlstrom is on the other team just to give you a few names. Right. So because he's an Islander, right AJ?

AJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had a goal last night.

Ellen: And it was a non parent coach. So you don't talk to these coaches. I don't think I had a conversation with them and they're young they’re- I don’t know Jack was an underager so he's playing up a year. And so the coach calls me. He's like, “ Umm... We've got a problem. Can you come back to the locker room?” So I go back to the locker room and he goes, “Ummm Luke skates are in Jack's bag.” You know what that means? Where are Jack’s skates? In Luke’s bag or God knows where, right? So I'm like, agh and they're like, “Where are Luke’s skates?” And like, I think he - I left his bag in Toronto. So at this point. So I look at Jack, I'm like, “What you want to do?” and he goes, “Find [buy?] me some skates.” and I'm like, “Okay, what size are your skates?” So I go around, I find the Chicago mission, and if he was in CCM some guy had a Bauer of a size four and a half or five or six or whatever he was in, and they're like, You can borrow these skates, but our game is offset from yours so you can only play until we need the skates back.

Cammi: Oh my God.

Ellen: Right?

AJ: I'm like, my stomach's dropping listening to this. I know.

Ellen: So he’s in these random skates and sorry to go off on a tangent here, but you saying you were great, You know, we do the same things that everybody else does. So it wasn't a completely tightly run ship. So. But maybe that's the adaptability. So Jack goes out and he plays two great periods, and all of a sudden I see this guy walk around and you see them take Jack's skates off. And this is a tight game and it's a big tournament. And he sits on the end of the bench with no skates for the third period. So here you are. We both have - we all have husbands. So Jimmy’s like, “How was the game?” I'm like, “He played great for two periods and let's just leave it at that.” He's like, I was. [unintelligible] But so anyway.

AJ: Yeah, I think that's building resilience. I think you're right. There is something to be in moment. It's- that's the worst feeling possible. But in retrospect, it's a great story, right? And it's one period of hockey that-

Ellen: [unintelligible] five like that running down the coach whenever Jack's hockey bag and his helmet was sideways like, I hope you guys have stories like that.

Cammi: Oh, man. You know what is funny is, those- that's just part of sport and part of the life where you have that happen. But I do as a kid, remembering, feeling like there was nothing more important. And I remember my brother Tony had just got his license. He was driving me over to a friend's house that was going to take me to an away game. It was about 45 minutes away. He went through a stop sign with just skated through a stop sign, hit the front of another car. I'm in the front seat. No seatbelt at that time. Right. And the first thing he goes, “You okay?” and the first thing I said is, “I'm not going to miss my game, am I?” And sure enough, we had to drive home. Somehow we got home. My mom is pregnant with my younger brother Joey, eight months pregnant, and I somehow cried my way into making my mom get in our trans van massive truck with Tony in the passenger seat, driving through snow to get me to the game, which I got there in the third period. But it was to me it was like, I know that feeling like it's- you cannot miss, you cannot. And I see with my kids too. So yeah, those are the best. Some of those are the best memories actually, right?

Ellen: I'll give you one.

AJ: We spent about five and a half hours driving down here to Philadelphia. My daughter, I think, checked nine times to make sure her stuff was in the bag because I had to. She was at school and I had to get it. She does not trust me at all. I'm like, okay, yeah, you just make sure you got two- a right and a left skate in there.

Ellen: I'll give you one last story. To just - to say, like, like here I am, a hockey mom, thinking I’m going to teach my kids to skate. So when Jimmy was coaching in Boston with Robbie Ftorek, I didn't have Luke yet, so Jack... Quinn must've been three. So I wanted to have some one-on-one time. You know, with your first child, you feel like you have your second child and you just need some one-on-one time. So there was free kindergarten skating at the Reading arena. And so we were living in.. in uh.. oh my god I can’t even remember - right around the corner from there. So anyway, so every Tuesday I would take Quinn to skate and that's how he learned to skate. Like it wasn't like I was teaching him strides, I was teaching him to skate. I was getting him on skates. So I was really proud of this kid. He’d gotten off his crates that he was pushing and blah, blah, blah, blah. And at that point Robbie's parents were still alive. Steve and Ruth and they were amazing. And we would go to the games and, and so they didn't live far from there. So they wanted to come watch little Quinn that they see at the Bruins games skate. And I was so proud that I’d taught this kid to skate y’know, he was standing up on his own, he was pushing, the whole bit. So Steve comes out who had taught Robbie how to skate and Robbie was a great skater and I'm like this particular day, Quinn is terrible. He must have been three. Like he just looked like he had two left feet. I’m like, “he's not skating like, I swear, like he could skate, like, something's not right.” And Steve goes, “Ellen, I think his skates are on the wrong feet.” And they were! Do you know how little skates are? Yeah. How would you know? Like [unintelligible]. So we laugh about that story. So, Quinn doesn't know. He can't communicate to tell me that his skates are on the wrong feet. We sit him down, like literally in the doorway. We switch his feet and off this kid goes. And he's pushing and like a little three year old and he's doing great. So that's one of my many [unintelligible] stories.

AJ: But just to make you feel better, I did that to my son Sam, when he was however old, probably five. We went skiing. It was ski boots on the wrong feet. He kept telling us his feet hurt. And we basically were like, You're fine. It's just ski boots they hurt. And the end of the day I was like, Oh yeah, no, they really hurt. That's actually a legitimate point. So been there!

Cammi: Before we wrap up here and get to our rapid fire, I just wanted to ask you about the couple of times where I've seen the boys play tog- Well they played together on the World Junior team and it was in Vancouver. Jack and Quinn played together. What was that like and what was it like when they played their first NHL game toge- against each other for the Jersey Devils and for the Vancouver Canucks? Can you take us through those two times and what it felt like?

Ellen: Yeah, that's great. I mean, the- we had the fortune of them playing together at the World Junior Showcase up in Kamloops the summer before, leading up, kind of the tryouts. So I think that was my first experience. It was great. It was great. Really competitive. They played together. They were on the same PP that was a ton of fun. They were on the ice together a lot. Then the World Juniors that- in Vancouver, that was great too. But Jack was injured, so he was kind of in and out of the lineup, but it was just really great for them to be able to, as- they're so tight, they're best of friends, all three of them. So I think it was more letting them have that experience together and you know, you're disappointed for them in the way that the outcome was because they were so close to winning a gold medal. But it was super cool. It was a lot of fun. And then when they played against each other it was super special, I think for our family, just because it was the first time we got to share something like that with our whole family, we had a huge crew there. The Devils were nice enough, they were amazing. They had a box there and we were able to have all Jim's extended family there from the Northeast, which is a huge group of people. And Jack happened to score his first goal that night. So that was a relief and great and exciting. And then the next time they played together Cammi we went with you. You had the boys and Ray, and that was a great game, too, right? That was a lot of fun. I think the biggest thing is I like it better when they're not on the ice at the same time, especially with one being a D and one being a forward. I prefer, and it's hard to watch them. I don't know who you guys are, but AJ, your daughter right now at Nationals, is a stay at home defenseman so you watch all the D and you have a good feeling. It's really hard to watch two positions let alone two teams play.

AJ: I agree with that when I think about what you're, what you went through, with that and it's not even allegiance of which team you want to win. It's more what they're doing individually and you can't focus. I think that must have been so cool. Was there added pressure on the boys? Did you notice any nerves that night playing against each other?

Ellen: No, but I don't know what kind of side bets there were. Like. I'm going to need [unintelligible] Haha I could have used a girl so I could get a little more information, a daughter y’know they’re a little more forthcoming. I think it was exciting. They were both very young. I mean, it's crazy to think they entered their rookie year together. I think as they, y’know, hopefully have a really long, sustained career. That's your greatest hope for all of these players that play in the professional sports is to be able to stay healthy and have a long, sustained careers. So I think as they age and- it'll be more and more fun to watch it evolve.

AJ: Now we're talking about Quinn and Jack. Is there. Do you think that there's added pressure on Luke right now because of the successes that his brothers have had?

Ellen: You know, it's funny because I always worried about that with Luke, like, you know, as a parent, you know, I want them to all be successful in their own right. I want them all to have their own passion. I want them to care about school and do well in school and so, you know, you're always like, which one needs what someone will, you know, whatever it is you want to try to support them. And so Luke was really small for a while and he was playing against kids that had already hit puberty. And- and you know, I know you dealt with that Cammi with Riley and then he took off and he blew them like his whole game was a new you know, as soon as that- the playing field was evened. And that's a hard thing to try to nurture them through, you know, like, “just keep going” and “it's okay,” and “you’re gonna have your man strength,” and “you’re gonna have more separation speed because of that,” so Luke was really young and I mean, it took him a while before he grew. And so I wondered in my heart, like, is there pressure on him? Does he feel bad about himself? Like, I didn't know, you know what I mean? So then he made the program, which he just kind of started to take off.

Never in a million years did I think he was going to be 6’2” like you could’ve- I would never. I mean, he was who would have thought he was going to tower over his brothers? He was so late. So we used to talk to him about it, you know, and I used to try to ask, but it's hard to get information. But he drove his own bus and he had his own inner desires and his own inner strengths. And it never seemed to faze him or bother him, which, you know, was- we tried to communicate about it like you guys would as parents.

Cammi: It's so wonderful. I just love your whole family. I love everything you guys have instilled in your boys. I love watching them. We're such you know, we've grown so much closer. We get to see each other more often. And I just yeah, I commend you and totally appreciate all the insight that you've given us today. We've kept you a long time on, but we have our not so rapid, rapid fire, if you don't mind answering some rapid fire questions you can answer ‘em slow or fast. It's up to you. AJ and I seem to go the slow way sometimes with our long questions. But let's put you in the hot seat.

AJ: So, yeah, this means you're coming to the front of the bus. So I don't know if that in the bus or trips that you went on that meant you were in trouble. But I'll say that just.

Ellen: Time out before you go. Where were you guys on the bus?

Cammi: I was in the back on the right, about maybe three seats from the bathroom, two or three seats from the bathroom, and AJ was up front.

AJ: I was more like middle, but on the other side. So it was like.

Cammi: You were like two rows ahead. Yeah. Yeah, where were you?

Ellen: Cammi. I think I was right where you were.

Cammi: Yeah. Okay

AJ: Not quite far enough back for, like, all the crazy card games and everything like that, right? That was always our bus. There was a lot of shenanigans in the way back of the bus. Actually maybe our rapid fire should be called Go to the back of the bus. That might be a little I don't know, might be a little different. All right. So here we go. Let's start. What is your favorite youth hockey, or any sports since you played a lot of sports, memory?

Ellen: Probably winning the national championship with the Dallas Sting in soccer, which still today is one of the premier club teams in the country.

AJ: Oh, that's a good one. How old were you?

Ellen: I was probably 15. And then one other thing is we went to China when I was 15. That was a pretty cool experience. Before women's soccer had a national team and they were playing, they were having their first international tournament. And since we had won the club championship they sent us, which is amazing to think they sent a bunch of women to China to play in an international tournament. You know.

AJ: That’s very cool.

Cammi: How’d you guys do?

Ellen: We won it.

Cammi: You're kidding.

Ellen: There's actually someone that's trying to, I just get the emails, that’s trying to make a movie about it, because it's pretty unheard of.

Cammi: It's amazing.

AJ: That is amazing. So we didn't really get into this. The one thing we were carrying our time up for is that you had the good fortune of having all of your boys home during COVID. Maybe a silver lining to what was going on in the world. Everybody got to be back under one roof. But when everyone's home, what's your go to family dinner?

Ellen: Oh, our go to family dinners, steak. They are all about steak. So steak and pesto pasta with a spinach salad is the go to. They would eat steak every night.

AJ: Oh, that sounds good.

Ellen: Cammi, Quinn’s cooking [?]. Believe it or not, [unintelligible]. When they're allowed to go places next year in Vancouver over you and Ray should-

Cammi: I can keep him honest for that?. Yeah, I know I will definitely. If I know that now. What is he cooking in these?

Ellen: Cooking steak and lots of he cooks some, tuna ahi tuna and lots of peppers and veggies and that's a good thing about COVID. Is that most of these young kids have learned to cook, which is amazing.

AJ: That is amazing. That's actually that is another- that's a good silver lining. I know. Speaking of your three boys, Quinn, Jack and Luke, which one was most mischievous as a kid.

Ellen: And I mean, you know how it is, it's a three month cycle like, just like one needs your attention more than the other when they were little. But um… Quinn and Jack together? This is not rapid fire, but I can remember when they were really level and I don't know. And I've already taken up too much of your time. But I remember Jimmy had taken off to Toronto and, oh no, then he must have been littler than this and Jimmy and I, Luke was just born, maybe six months old, and we heard this rustling. You know, you have that in the baby room, on the other room. And I don't know if this has happened to either one of you. And I'm like, it was like six in the morning. You're trying to get sleep, and I heard something. I mean, “Jimmy, what is that?” You know, So we listen to the voice and they had this grandiose idea that they were going to throw the baby out of the crib, Jack was inside the crib, picking up Luke to hand him off to Luke- to Quinn, who wasn't big enough, it was going tobe a drop outside the crib. So let's just leave with that. Right?

Cammi: How old were they? How old were they when that happened?

Ellen: Luke was under one because he couldn't get out, right? I mean, it was not a great plan. Then. Thankfully, we rescued them.

Cammi: So if you would have had that nanny cams that are the baby cams, that would have been brilliant to have that on video.

Ellen: Right.

AJ: Good. Some Hughes boy mischief. I like it. Now, of the three, who is the most competitive?

Ellen: Probably, I don't, I can't.

Cammi: Can’t choose, you’re a mom.

AJ: Yeah no I actually we were just talking about the drive to win and everything. I understand that. But it's all three, I guess. Now we you, you mentioned being nervous still, when you watch your boys play, what can you remember being the most nervous you've ever been as a sports parent?

Ellen: Mmm that's a tough one. Probably for me, it's not about the kids. It was more about the team. So, you know, having your kids go through the NTDP you want them to win these big tournaments. So you’re nervous for the group because you want so well, they're representing their country so the World Championships, the World Juniors, I mean, Cammie, you've sat with me and seen me between periods at the World Juniors, so that might be a fair one you can attest to, like, you're like, Really? You probably walk away from meeting with the boys between periods and me. Like, she's a little wacky over there. I don't know.

Cammi: Oh, they love you.

Ellen: You're stressed. Not for your kids. You're stressed for the team in your country. And you want so well, you want them to win! Their competitive side and they're tight. And you’re just on the edge of your seat. More like a fan, I would say, than a mother. So much too. Is that fair to say?

AJ: Yeah. Did you ever coach any of them?

Ellen: Yeah,

AJ: I think they're so close in age. You. Oh, you did?

Ellen: Yeah. So I coached them in soccer. I coached them in lacrosse, but they played box lacrosse. I didn't coach them in hockey. They would do a lot of spring hockey. What I would do is get on the I would just buy outdoor ice like and I would run the skates. But when I say I would run the skates is, I would get out of the way. I would turn the nets. Three on three, three on three, three on three, no direction, just let them. And then it was more, you know, just playing, like the environment, the competitors setting up the competitive- competitive mini games. So that type of stuff as extras.

AJ: The last question we have for you is what advice would you have to hockey parents out there or what kind of motto did you guys, would you say you followed?

Ellen: You know, who gave us really good advice, especially as they got older were Keith and Chantal Tkachuk. They were amazing role models for us. Quinn was fortunate enough to live with them and, and Keith always. They always said it, just be a great teammate, be a great human being, great- be a great person and work hard, be one of the hardest working. Get out there and have fun. You know, I know it's easy to say, but there's so many great things you can do in this life. There's so many greater things you can do in this life. You know, you find your passion, find lots of passions and be you and follow your heart in whatever it is that your [passion is like, live it, eat it, drink it and be it. I mean, I think those are the same advice that both of you as past Olympians give your own children.

Cammi: That's wonderful.

AJ: That is, that's awesome. And you are so awesome. I love hearing the sort of inside scoop from the first family of hockey, the Hughes family, and everybody's favorite hockey mom, Ellen Hughes. But at the same time, I love also taking that little walk down memory lane to make sure everybody remembers what a stud you are.

Ellen: Well, I so appreciate it. And I'm having so much fun listening to you two on your podcast. It's amazing what you're doing. I think you're amazing human beings. You both know how I feel about you and my admiration for what you've done for the women's game and what you're still doing in the game of hockey is so cool and you're both trailblazers. And I love this podcast and I love the guests that you have on. I take myself out of that like I don't fit in the realm of guests.

AJ: Yes, yes you do.

Ellen: I'm just saying that in the heart of hearts, I love the guests you've had on, and keep rocking it. You two are amazing and I'm lucky to have you as friends. And AJ, I laugh. I think about watching you at the Olympics and Cammi and I already had a relationship because we played together. And then I think about you today. And it's incredible.

AJ: And you are. I do remember you paved the way for us, but I do. I'm glad. I think you're buttering us up just in case I say, I will say anything negative about your sons on the ice, which so far I haven't had to because they're such superstars. But, you know, don't hold it against me if I do.

Ellen: You know, And then and hopefully things will get back to normal and we'll be traveling and I'll see you guys one day.

Cammi: Well, Ellen, thank you so much for being here. We were so happy you joined us and we'll have to have you on again at some point. And when the whole quarantine is over, well, I'll be looking forward to when you come to watch Quinn in Vancouver here.

#thank you to leo without whom this would just be sitting unfinished in my google drive for eternity #ellen weinberg-hughes #jack hughes #quinn hughes #luke hughes #transcript

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Mojo, April 2021

Is Lana Del Rey – the Springsteen-approved laureate of L.A. darkness – lightening up? In 2021, a new album opens a sunnier chapter in her controversial roman-à-clef, and folk legend Joan Baez advocates her acceptance in the pantheon. But while serenity seems almost in reach, some wounds still burn and grievances rankle. “Fame can put you on the peripheries,” she tells Victoria Segal, “where the vultures can pick at you. It’s dangerous on the edges.”

IT’S MIDNIGHT IN MODESTO AND LANA DEL REY HAS swung into the backyard, pulled up in her fast car. “I told my boyfriend I was going to go out and sit in the car because I hate it when people listen to me talk,” she says. “I’m at his parents’ farm, so we’re in, like, the guest house. It’s pretty idyllic: Northern California, pretty cold, 40 degrees and a little fireplace. We had a sweet little night singing all the old Disney and holiday songs – not what I expected after a long car ride, but everyone was in a good mood.”

Tomorrow, Del Rey will hit the road back home to Los Angeles, preparing to spend Christmas Eve “with my sister and brother and just two girlfriends.” After the holiday, it will transpire she fractured her arm while spinning on her “beautiful skates” through the “twilight of the desert”: that’s why she’s wearing a sling in MOJO’s cover photograph.

Ever since she studied philosophy at New York’s Fordham University in the late 2000s, there’s been a question lurking in Del Rey’s mind: what if something happened to make the world stop? “So when it did,” she says, “I was kind of shocked.” The pandemic has inevitably hampered her movements – festivals cancelled, studio time with producer Jack Antonoff truncated – but it hasn’t slowed down her creative jumps (or her willingness to crash into social media).

September saw the publication of her poetry collection, Violet Bent Backwards Over The Grass. In November, she covered Summertime as a fundraiser for the New York and Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestras; covering all bases, she also recorded You’ll Never Walk Alone for a documentary about Liverpool FC.

The most significant landmark, however, was the completion of Chemtrails Over The Country Club, the album she has been promising (sometimes as White Hot Forever) since the release of 2019’s Norman Fucking Rockwell! Bruce Springsteen, who knows a bit about the flipside of the American dream, loved that album: “She just creates a world of her own and invites you in,” he said. The cover showed Del Rey standing on a boat, one arm around Jack Nicholson’s grandson Duke, the other reaching towards the camera as if to save the viewer from the water. Behind her, the Californian coast is on fire. The Greatest, Norman Fucking Rockwell!’s defining song, was the cover’s aural analogue: “Hawaii just missed that fireball/LA is in flames it’s getting hot… Kanye West is blond and gone/Life On Mars ain’t just a song/I hope the livestream’s almost on.” But where do you go after burning America down? Did she know what was next?

“No,” says Del Rey lightly. “I felt totally fucked.”

YOU’D HAVE GOT LONG ODDS, IN 2012, on the internet phenomenon of the previous year’s Video Games becoming the decade’s most remarkable and provocative pop star. Back then, Lana Del Rey was more think-piece cipher than Boss-approved songwriter: “a young fiction,” sniffed the Los Angeles Times, “daughter of a domain-name magnate.”

The record states that Elizabeth Woolridge Grant was born in New York in 1985; as a baby, she moved with her parents upstate to Lake Placid. Music was around, but not unusually so. “From what I was told,” she says, “I sang verses before I spoke words, but I don’t think that necessarily meant I had to, or was going to be a singer.” Much else in her supposed biography, she says, is misinformation.

“People said I came from money,” she recounts. “It was really tough to get over some stigma of this idea of having my dad buying my album and giving me a record deal and us being some rich white family when we fought over money constantly when we were young.” Later, she says “I was not from the right side of the tracks, period.”

Sent to boarding school to address an alcohol problem – a period she captured in This Is What Makes Us Girls from her Born To Die album of 2012 – she “was made fun of mercilessly for being white trash. It was so hard, every minute of it was super-tough, not having come from Greenwich. Being super straight-edge in college was just, like, crazy. It’s been the road less travelled the whole time.” She has no interest, she insists, in properly telling her own story, “beautiful” though she says it is: “I don’t give a fuck about people knowing [mocking little voice] my inner thoughts as a third grader.”

Early detractors, chasing down a narrow idea of “authenticity”, were bothered by her musical prehistory – stalled experiments and false starts that might once have been called “paying your dues”. In 2006, she made Sirens under the name May Jailer, spindly alt-folk with a Linda Perhacs wobble that was never officially released. Her next ‘first’ album, Lana Del Ray AKA Lizzy Grant, was removed by her managers from the internet in 2010, preparing a clean slate for the post-Video Games era.

Yet as the plausibly deniable satire of Brooklyn Baby from 2014’s Ultraviolence indicates (“Well my boyfriend’s in a band/He plays guitar while I sing Lou Reed”), she put in the hours on New York’s grottiest stages.

In 2008, Del Rey was living in the Manhattan Mobile Home Park in New Jersey. She would also take the light rail to record with producer David Kahne on Gansevoort Street in the Meatpacking District – sessions that would ultimately become her first EP, Kill Kill, and the since repudiated Lana Del Ray. She had a deal with David Nichtern’s 5 Points Records; Lady Gaga’s manager Bob Leone secured her some classes at the Songwriter’s Hall Of Fame; her senior year of metaphysics at Fordham was ending. Odd little paths opened up: she auditioned for Spider-Man: Turn Off The Dark, the musical scored by Bono and The Edge, and “maybe thought about Broadway. You’d get like a hundred dollars for singing background on records that would lead to nowhere. There was this company that emerged called The Orchard that was taking submissions for, like, toilet paper commercials and I probably did one, like, under a pseudonym. Definitely the happiest I’ve ever been. Stay in the middle, no dog in the race, people would even hire me for background stuff. I tried to act so cool on every sofa I sat at.”

It was only in 2010, when she met her current manager Ben Mawson at the CMJ Festival in New York’s Chinatown, that gears shifted and she glimpsed a significant future for herself: “Then I moved to London with him that week and he got me out of my deal that day.”

Success was not immediate. “I lived in a shitty flat with no heat, it was so awful – but they told me it was on Camden Road near where Amy Winehouse used to play at the Roundhouse, and I loved Amy.” Her voice softens dreamily. “I loved Amy.”

Fed up with trying to write songs for other people, one day she “just said ‘fuck it’” to her collaborator Justin Parker: “‘I’m going to write what I want to write now.’” In a Dolly Parton-style fit of productivity, within 72 hours she had Video Games, Born To Die, Blue Jeans and Ride.

On July 23, 2011, just under a month after Video Games appeared on the internet, Del Rey was on a train to Glasgow when Mawson told her she had received her first review. “I had 10 seconds of the most elated feeling,” she remembers, “and then the news everywhere, on all of the televisions, was that Amy had died on her front steps and I was like no. NO.” She breathes in sharply. “Everyone was watching, like, mesmerised, but I personally felt like I didn’t even want to sing any more.”

TEN SECONDS OF ELATION seems to be as much pleasure as Del Rey has ever taken from her press. When she covered Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood on 2015’s Honeymoon album, it was not casually chosen: anger at the way she feels she has been misrepresented surges through her conversation, despite the four billion streams, the four UK Number 1 albums, and the validation of famous fans from Stevie Nicks to Courtney Love.

Even Norman Fucking Rockwell!’s ecstatic reception was no antidote. “I knew they were going to like Norman… because there’s kind of nothing not to like about it,” she shrugs. “Norman…’s just cool, it’s easy to cheer for that.” She doesn’t, however, believe people are cheering for her: in September, she declared she still felt like an “underdog”.

“When I’m in London I’m reminded of what other people think of me in a great way. Being on the cover of MOJO – I fucking love MOJO. It’s crazy to me, crazy to me, crazy to me that I could be on the cover of MOJO but it’s a little different – ha! – over here,” she says, ie, in America. “I mean, I guess I’ll never forget my first four years of interviews. They just fucking burned me.”

There was the one where the journalist “made fun of me mercilessly, for like, five hours about how I adopted a New York City accent and that everyone knew it was fake, so just give it up. It was embarrassing – he humiliated me. So by the time he asked me about feminism, I said I just wanted to talk about aerospace travel.”

A 2014 Guardian interview headlined “I Wish I Was Dead Already” is another thorn in her psyche. “I didn’t say I wanted to die because of the 27 Club – I said I was having, like, a fucking hard time. The way people talk about mental health in 2020” – she makes the noise of an explosion – “mind blown. Talk about a different world compared with five years ago. You said anything remotely like you’re not feeling so good that day and it’s like, ‘Woah, you’ve set women back like 200 years.’ Or ‘Witch!’ It was super-hard to be a real person.”

Instead, Del Rey continued to build her musical world, creating a reality nobody could dismiss. ‘Evolution’ suggests dramatic Bowie-like shape-shifts; instead, her six albums have been a process of refining her core material – the palette of upcycled hip-hop, vintage Hollywood glamour and Laurel Canyon classicism. But Norman Fucking Rockwell!’s widescreen dazzle was a dead end of sorts – “I had to turn back inward,” she says – and Chemtrails Over The Country Club appears to reveal a more vulnerable Del Rey: lighter on the LA menace, more innocently emotional: “We did it for fun/We did it for free,” she sings sweetly on the song Yosemite, “we did it for the right reasons.” It’s an album that looks at the road ahead, but also, back to where she’s come from, making her strongest connection yet with her antecedents.

“I’ve been covering Joni and dancing with Joan,” she sings on Chemtrails…’ Dance Till We Die – and it’s all true. In October 2019, Del Rey duetted with Joan Baez on her 1975 song Diamonds And Rust at Berkeley’s Greek Theatre; a night of non-stop dancing with the 80-year-old folk hero followed. And as promised, Chemtrails… includes a Joni Mitchell cover from Mitchell’s 1970 album Ladies Of The Canyon. Reprising their October 2019 performance at the Hollywood Bowl, Del Rey shares the verses out with Arizonan singer-songwriter Zella Day and Weyes Blood’s Natalie Mering. A bittersweet commentary on the value of art, Mitchell contrasts her “velvet curtain calls” with a busker’s purity – it’s a song, says Del Rey, that means “everything” to her.

“The way things started off for me in the way I was portrayed was that I was feigning emotional sensitivity. I really didn’t like that,” she says coldly. “Because I didn’t even get famous ’til I was, like, 27 and until then, I sang for less than free. And I loved it. I really was that girl who was pure of soul. I didn’t give a fuck.”

For one, Natalie Mering doesn’t doubt Del Rey’s investment in For Free. “I think the verse that Lana sings – “Me, I play for fortunes” – it’s her story too,” she says. “She understands the ephemeral quality of music and that it can’t be completely commodified, even though she’s done such a great job of doing that. I think Joni is very similar.”

BAEZ AND MITCHELL, DEL REY says, are “like unicorns”. “Joan, Bob, Joni Mitchell, Jimi Hendrix, it’s less the albums and more the songs – the single perfect songs. Like Diamonds And Rust or Woodstock.” She rummages on You Tube to find a “staggering” 1962 coffeehouse performance from Baez. “I see a lot of people now wanting to be like other people – and hey, it’s not like I don’t want to be like other people too – but I think there were so many less options to look at in the ’60s, so you kind of just got what you got. You got a Janis or you got a Joan or you got a Jimi – it wasn’t like there was Jimi One, Jimi Two, Jimi Three. When I’m producing things alone, it’s impossible for me to sound anything other than a singer-songwriter. Actually, that’s not true,” she corrects herself. “I’ve got my own little ways about me.”

Mering, comparing Del Rey to Peggy Lee “if she was, like, I’m just going to write everything myself,” agrees. “She’s very free and she’s loose. What she goes for in terms of when she’s writing and working, it’s very magical and intuitive and it’s not very calculated – even though I think maybe she’s been accused of that in the past.”

That looseness – a willingness to wander – feels more present on Chemtrails… than previous albums, yet she insists it has been “so much harder than any other record I’ve made.” Covid separated her from Antonoff – also a collaborator with St. Vincent and Taylor Swift – in the final stages of recording and she missed him. “Everything that could be terrible is hilarious in Jack’s world. I think that’s why he does so well. It’s a rare quality for a man to have that softer kind of side – all hilarity and no inappropriateness.”

She says she finds listening to the new album “a fight”, conceding that she’s offering a pre-emptive critique. “It wasn’t so much that I thought the songs fantastically fit together with like seamless, sunkissed production – but you know, there’s a life lived in there.”

Del Rey has long used Los Angeles to colour and contour her songs. But Chemtrails roves further – Tulsa, Nebraska, Florida – a fitting backcloth for a record about freedom in a world where everything has a price. Not All Who Wander Are Lost – a song whose sky-high trill reminds Del Rey of “Cinderella in the movie where she’s holding the bluebird” – romanticises wanderlust. Wild At Heart and the title track (“I’m not unhinged or unhappy/I’m just wild”) hint at something untameable. If For Free is the record’s presiding spirit, you can also feel the vibrations of Mitchell’s Cactus Tree, a song that acknowledges the hard work of “being free” – shedding compromise, swerving control.

It’s a struggle Del Rey maps onto her folk and country influences, most explicitly on Breaking Up Slowly. A mournful lament riffing on Tammy Wynette and George Jones’s notoriously turbulent relationship, it was written with Tennessean singer-songwriter Nikki Lane, who supported Del Rey in 2019. In a hotel room, Lane mentioned that somebody told her she was “breaking up slowly”. Del Rey immediately sang “…is a hard thing to do”.

“One of the most incredible things about being around her is like, she is a song,” says Lane of Del Rey. “It’s just coming out of her at all hours of the day.”

They have written four more originals; there is also, says Del Rey, “a cover album of country songs” and one of “other folk songs”. Del Rey expects “scepticism,” but explains her father and uncle Phil Madeira (one of Emmylou Harris’s Red Dirt Boys) exposed her to country music in her youth. Her tastes are “stark and blue, somewhat outlaw”: Hank Williams, Bobbie Gentry, Patsy Cline, Wynette. “With a little Marty Robbins and Johnny Paycheck. I went back and listened to Ride [from 2012 EP Paradise] and Video Games and thought, you know, they’re kind of country. I mean, they’re definitely not pop. Maybe the way Video Games got remastered, they’re pop – but there’s something Americana about it for sure. So let’s see how these things come out – I’m not going to have pedal steel guitar on every single thing, but it is easy for me to write.”

A YEAR OR SO AGO, DEL REY attended a party with Jack Antonoff and St. Vincent at the house of Guy Oseary, manager of Madonna and U2. “Something happened,” she says, “kind of a situation like – never meet your idols. And I just thought, ‘I think it’s interesting that the best musicians end up in such terrible places.’ I thought to myself, ‘I’m going to try my best not to change because I love who I am.’ I said, ‘Jack, it’s dark.’ And he said, ‘Well, it’s dark – but I mean, it’s just a game.’”

The incident inspires a song on Chemtrails… Dark But Just A Game mixes Portishead, Ricky Nelson’s song Garden Party and Allen Ginsberg’s poem Howl (“The best ones lost their minds”) into a potent statement of defiance.

“Dark But Just A Game is so her to me,” Antonoff will tell MOJO: “fly down the rabbit hole and smile in the same breath.”

The game, however, takes its toll. As Del Rey talks, it frequently feels as if she’s dusting herself down from past humiliations, brushing off old slights.

“People are constantly inferring that I’ve done so much to myself, when I’ve never even been under anaesthesia or whatever,” she says unprompted, apparently still stung by 2012 speculations over the size of her lips. Occasionally, she makes grand statements: “I wanted music to change in the early 2000s and I wanted it to be better than it was. I think it is and I genuinely think I had a hand in it for female singer-songwriters.” They don’t land like shots from a weaponised ego – more the affirmations of someone who still feels as if she doesn’t say it, nobody will.

On a Chemtrails… song called White Dress she sings in a breathlessly rapt whisper of being “only 19”, working as a waitress, listening to The White Stripes and Kings Of Leon. “Look how I do this,” she sings with trembling innocence, “look how I’ve got this.” Then comes the fall: “It kind of makes me feel that I was better off.”

“I’m sure the grass is always greener,” Del Rey says, looking back on her waitressing days, “but I had a lot of fun dreaming about what was going to come next. Also, I really liked being of service and I still do – I do lots of little things in my spare time that put me back sort of in that service space. How I kind of grew up was to be a man amongst men and a grain of sand on the beach and I preferred to stay in the middle of the boat in that way. Sometimes I feel, with fame, it can put you on the peripheries, where the vultures can pick at you. It’s dangerous on the edges.”

“It’s not that I aspire to be the girl next door,” she says later, “but it’s just that I actually was and I think what some people don’t understand is that the girl next door has things going on, too. A lot of these other people who I see portraying that image are not that way at all – they’re like the biggest bitches who live in, like, insane mansions and who rip people off. This is not bitterness speaking at all. It’s literally just kind of just the facts, ma’am.”

In May 2020, Del Rey posted a “question for the culture” on Instagram. In it, she expressed her belief that artists including Beyoncé, Cardi B and Kehlani were applauded for portraying their sexuality in all its messy complexity, while she was accused of “glamorising abuse” in songs like Ultraviolence, where she quoted the title of The Crystals’ Goffin & King classic He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss). The culture’s answer was not sympathetic: Del Rey was held to account for appearing to single out artists of colour, and criticised for asking feminism to save a place for “women who look and act like me… the kind of women who are slated for being their authentic, delicate selves.”

“I wasn’t saying white like me,” she insists, emphasising that the women she mentioned are artists she loves. “I was saying people who are made a joke of like me.”

SHORTLY AFTER SPEAKING TO MOJO, Del Rey issues another pre-emptive social media strike, pointing out the new album’s artwork – a photograph of the singer surrounded by her friends – does feature women of colour. Three days after that, she posts a video railing against magazines suggesting she told Radio 1 DJ Annie Mac that she didn’t believe Donald Trump meant to incite the Capitol riot. In fact, she says, she was accusing him of sociopathy – a subject, she tells MOJO, she studied for six years, along with “psychopathy and narcissism and delusions of grandeur”.

“When Trump became President, I was not surprised,” she says, “because the macrocosm is the mirror of what goes on in our bedrooms. In our inner lives.

“A lot of the things I was writing [songs] about, people shamed me for,” she continues, “but I like to think now I was actually writing about what thousands of housewives were experiencing and no one ever said a thing from Brentwood to Boca Raton. I just dyed my hair black and talked about it and I got a lot of shit for it.”

She declares that “It takes a more dignified-looking person with a better reputation to call out the world, or the President or some guy who runs a restaurant. I’m going to be the person who corroborates that story, the blonde at the end of the bar… The reason why I can’t be a person who starts certain movements is because of what people have written that isn’t true. And that’s too bad – because I know a lot.”

Does she feel she’s been discredited?

“I was discredited for seven years,” she says, her voice rising so fiercely it’s briefly unclear whether she’s laughing or crying. “There’s no other way of looking it.”

In the poem SportCruiser from Violet Bent Backwards Over The Grass, Del Rey wonders if learning to fly could help her navigate life, if learning to sail would show her which way the wind was blowing. Then she realises writing is all the adventure she needs.

“I certainly have to circumnavigate the globe quite a few times to come back to the fact that what I do is that I write, that I live here in LA, that I know who I am,” she says. “I think I’m very hopeful that I’ll feel more and more serene, because that is an objective for me. I just like the idea of waking up peacefully, rather than waking up in a sweat, throwing my feet down on the ground and being like, ‘Oh, what’s going wrong today!’”

Talking earlier about her whispery vocal on White Dress, Del Rey said it was not only close to unedited “journaling” but “also, not too afraid about being kind of stupid. The way I sound in the chorus – because I know it’s… not great, you know,” she laughs.

It sounds perfect for the song, though – trembling, awestruck. The voice of somebody on the brink of something. She agrees – not because it catches her teenage perspective, but because it speaks to her now.

“I actually said to a friend the other day I feel something brewing,” she says. “And that’s the first time in a long time. I have no idea what it is. But I know that it’s good.”

Originally published in the April 2021 issue of Mojo with the headline Wild at Heart.

#2021 #Chemtrails Over the Country Club #Mojo #Victoria Segal

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