#tfp character analysis

[soyu2001]

I think this is why (some)ppl are not satisfied with RiD2015?

Cuz of all nuances shown in TFP and PR pushing him into an 'archetypal Strascream story' feels... ehh?

I've been in this fandom for several moths now i think that many of its promblems stem from TFP Starscream.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Why is Starscream never really redeemed? I know of one instance and it's the Armada show. I might be new and not know a lot but I know of more times that Megatron got redeemed than Starscream. Why is Megatron redeemable but not Starscream? I feel like this is a pot calling the kettle black. Maybe it's just me. I also see that like as soon as Megatron is outta the picture Starscream becomes the main bad guy which I understand but it's practically every single time. There are so many other characters they can do stuff with. I just wanna see Starscream be something more than a scumbag, a traitor and a horrible person. Ted Talk over.

[novafire-is-thinking]

This short exchange says so much about each of them.

Ratchet: I love Optimus, but my hatred for Megatron is bigger. Both blind me to any consideration for Arcee’s and Bumblebee’s safety.

Arcee: My love for Optimus is more important than Ratchet’s hatred for Megatron, but doubts about my safety make me hesitate.

Bumblebee: My love for Optimus is more important than Ratchet’s hatred for Megatron, and my safety.

In no way do I fault Ratchet for falling back on his hatred, or Arcee for falling back on self-preservation.

However, I wonder if either of them had any regrets after the fact…or if Optimus was conscious during the exchange, did it affect how he saw them?

[myirlnameiscloud]

tw: mentions of abuse. nothing too graphic.

I really hate how Megatron treats Starscream in this episode. Well, in TFP in general of course, but especially in season 2 episode 24.

(Apologies for the slight glitches in the video, idk what happened there.)

I know it's already been discussed quite a lot, but I just hate when people act like TFP Starscream is this completely evil villain who deserved everything they received.

(Further explanation under cut)

Notice the way Starscream flinches when Megatron speaks. Already, in this scene we have signs of terror in Starscream.

Megatron has violated their privacy by entering their brain without their consent, for no good reason. Megatron claims it is to "see if his intentions are true," but I think that's bullshit. He's already seen enough of Starscream to be able to manipulate and bully and terrorize them with ease, so it was unnecessary for him to go into Starscream's mind to look at her private thoughts and memories.

When Starscream tells Megatron to just "take the keys and pretend they were never there," it is an attempt to flee, plain and simple. Starscream only wanted safety from this arrangement, trying to use the omega keys as a deal to regain his status as SIC, or simply as a Decepticon in general. He is scared, and completely gives up on his search of safety with the Decepticons in that moment. Megatron preys on that fear, not letting him leave. More signs of panic arise in Starscream when we see them start to hyperventilate. (Or the Cybertronian equivalent to hyperventilation)

It's just such an abusive thing to do, but I guess, what do you expect from the leader of the Decepticons?

To make things even worse, Megatron shames Starscream for having a "twisted little mind," which I assume is him trying to convince Starscream that he is too stupid and undeserving to disobey Megatron. He threatens to kill Starscream, and that is when it gets even more horrible.

Starscream says that "a good trouncing usually straightens them out," and afterwards, a montage plays of past times where Starscream is beaten by Megatron. This was not for war, this was just to abuse his power over his smaller and weaker SIC to bully and manipulate them. It makes me so sad to see Starscream offer herself up to abuse in order to avoid death. It's just what she's gotten used to over the years.

They could never hurt Megatron in a way that would be equivalent to the pain he has forced them to endure for so long.

And yet, people STILL try to justify the abuse Starscream receives, saying that they are treacherous and cowardly, so they deserve it.

I hate this. I take it very personally, in fact, even when I know I shouldn't. Of course I can still laugh and make jokes about Starscream's self-absorbed personality, but it makes me incredibly uncomfortable to hear people laugh over Starscream being emotionally and physically abused by Megatron. Or worse; when they *romanticize* it.

The creators of TFP even thought it was funny when Starscream was hurt because she "screams like a girl." So I think that, whether people realize it or not, when they laugh at Starscream being hurt by Megatron, it is for somewhat misogynistic reasons. I also think that when people ship Megatron and Starscream (specifically in TFP) that it is not just toxic, but it is abusive. I would consider it a proshipping thing. (Proshippers PLEASE dni)

I've had similar experiences with victim-blaming, so I can't help but get a little defensive when people attack my favorite character for being "deserving of abuse."

Obviously, do whatever you want. This is simply my analysis of the situation, and sharing what I think. Of course I know that Starscream has also done some awful stuff in TFP, but I do not consider them to be 100% evil. I could list reasons why for days, honestly. Regardless, they did not deserve to be abused. Thanks for reading.

[smolstarthief]

So, my TF: Prime S2 Finale observations I made in regards to Optimus' expressions, a small analysis!

But context first: So throughout about the 2nd half of S2 the 'Bots and 'Cons are trying to find a set of Omega Keys which if gathered and hooked up a device, can restore and bring life back to Cybertron. They could finally go home. It ends up being a struggle for both sides but the 'Bots managed to grab the keys before Megatron to use them and activate the machine... But unfortunately, their foes were one step ahead of them once again as, due to a grave error and poor communication, their 3 young human companions ended up being found and held hostage. If they don't lower their weapons and give up the keys, they will exposed to Cybertron's toxic atmosphere and they'll be forced to watch the kids die in front of them.

Naturally, having truly cared about the children, they give up without a fight... And that's where things get really horrible for them as despite the kids being safe with them, Megatron's thirst for power isn't satisfied with JUST Cybertron... He wants Earth as well; all life be damned with it. That's where Optimus is forced to make a choice: Either just let the Decepticons do what they want and restore his home planet but then Earth would be wiped of all life in Megatron's attempt to try to rule it himself along with his home planet... Or basically destroy the device capable of restoring said home planet, dooming his home of being lifeless for good and risk having him be demonized for it but Earth is safe from suffering the same fate and history repeating itself.

Now one key subtle thing I notice with Optimus is his facial expressions. He's often criticized for being too stoic but honestly, it's all in the expressions and body language with him. Eyes and eyebrows especially. Even with his face mask on, one can pick up subtle details if observed closely. Basically, he IS capable of expression and emotions despite supposedly keeping them in check.

And he gets put through the absolute wringer this season and one can tell he's nearing his breaking point. He even outright SCREAMS in frustration in one episode which seemed to startle/surprise Ratchet and Bulkhead.

But hoo boy, this finale here... Like his expressions hurt! Like he seems calm at first when Megatron taunts him until he looks back at the understandably panicked children begging the Decepticon leader to leave Earth alone.

Then his eyebrows are raised up a bit when he looks back at the laughing 'Cons, eyes/optics looking more worried now. You can tell what he's thinking. The gears are turning and he's struggling to figure out what to do. He seems almost at a loss on the best way to handle it.

Hell, you can even say he's almost scared. He doesn't want history to repeat itself with Earth. He and the others already had to deal with so much pain and trauma the war caused, some of which he no doubt blames himself for. He does want Cybertron back but at what cost?

Then, in an instant, it shifts to steely resolve and with a clenched fist proceeded to reclaim the Star Saber. He knows the risks but he will NOT let another innocent planet suffer like his did. It seems shaky still but he makes his choice as he destroys the Omega Lock, dooming his home for good.

Granted there might have been a better way but what else can he do at the moment? It was damned if he do, damned if he don't and time was running out. He makes his choice and there's no turning back... Even if he can't go home now.

And when Ratchet calls him out for his decision, he briefly turns his head to the side before shaking it and looking back at him while defending his choice. Like he seems almost unsure of it himself but there's no turning back at this point and he knows it. It was necessary to him.

Then there's the ending where he decided to stay behind to destroy the Ground Bridge controls so that his comrades and loved ones won't be followed. He feels like this will be the last time he'll see them as he believed that he will be captured and interrogated at best, executed/killed to make an example at worst. He's already been demonized and branded a traitor by Megatron as well. When he makes the declaration to Ratchet that he'll stay, it's his usual serious expression.

But once Ratchet is gone... It drops and it's sad. Almost like a mental outer mask is cracking. Once again, it's almost shaky as he looks at the controls and his clenches his fist again in resolve. It's now or never with him.

"I... never imagined it would end like this." "Neither did I, old friend."

Even when he's readying his swing, you can feel the shaky resolve still. But he definitely didn't think that Megatron would outright reduce the base to rubble but god damn!

But yeah, it just feels like that in both moments... Optimus felt lost and even helpless and it shows in his expressions. They all show how much of his serious emotions were almost a mask he put up for everyone else's sakes even at the expense of his own feelings. He seemed to struggle with what to do and even seems unsure of his decisions but also feels like he made the necessary ones, even though they were painful.

But yeah... TF: Prime Optimus needs a hug so damn badly!

[dragqueenstarscream]

hey, its me again, back with more Starscream thoughts, so you just know things are about to get uncomfortably real and introspective! Again, prefacing by saying that a lot of my analysis is based on my own eerily similar experiences to Starscream, so I'm not 100% sure how much of this actually rings true and what is just me projecting.

I have entirely fallen down the StarOp rabbit hole thanks to you, at a speed I never could have expected. When I first finished TFP and started browsing the tags, I'd see the occasional StarOp post and at best be like "alright, sure" and at worst a little confused on where it was coming from, given the infrequency of interactions between the two after like, early season 1. But since I sent that first ask in it just clicked and like.

Before, I was always of the opinion that Starscream joining the autobots was something that could never really work from a character perspective, not just because of his dependency on Megatron like I talked about last time, but like, even if Megatron was completely out of the picture I never felt like the full on redemption and becoming a functioning member of post-war society that becoming an Autobot would entail would particularly be desirable to Starscream (if even possible for reasons both in and out of his control.)

I sorta felt like any good ending for Starscream would have to entail him moreso escaping the narrative than anything else, given the extent to which he's stuck in this cycle almost on a cosmic level, with how he's unable to escape it in any universe, any continuity, which of course ties into wider thoughts on how this franchise seems uninterested in letting Starscream ever escape that cycle. A sort of El Camino style ending, where leaving behind everything you know and running away to Alaska is considered a good ending, all things considered. That naturally led to me shipping him with Knockout, given their chemistry and the fact that they were this close to running away together, it just felt like the most compelling option, narratively speaking.

But now that I've caught onto the StarOp agenda, I've sorta cracked the code and realized that you can make a compelling and believable path to Starscream becoming an Autobot by having him getting together with Optimus initially be on a subconscious level an outlet to recreate the cycle he was in with Megatron purely because he's used to it and doesn't know how to live without it.

Outside of the obvious ideological and moral differences, Optimus and Megatron have a lot in common, especially from the perspective of Starscream. They're both big, strong, masculine figures, and natural-born leaders that effortlessly compel those around them to fight for their respective causes. They both radiate power in a way that I imagine you can almost feel when around them (and in a way I know it, because that's often how it felt being around my personal Megatron, it's why it was so easy to fall back into his arms over and over.)

All this to say, when Starscream gets with Optimus, he's not escaping the cycle, he's changing his target. If he became an autobot he would instantly become the most dedicated autobot, not out of any ideological reasoning or particular desire to be good, but out of an intense loyalty he effortlessly placed in Optimus. But of course, the loyalty phase is only half of this cycle.

This next part I'm heavily basing on what I've realized about my own experiences, so bear with me for a second, (I also doesn't think it exactly applies to TFP as much as it does some other continuities, G1 maybe but I haven't seen much of G1 so idk for sure) but I feel like sometimes Starscream almost tests Megatron in a way when he feels like Megatron's priorities are drifting away from him, (since remember, he needs to be the most important bot in his life, Starscream is desperate for Megatron to be as obsessed with him as he is with Megatron.) so Starscream will sort of do something stupid, maybe he comes up with some harebrained scheme that's probably not gonna work, or he makes some tactical or administrative decision entirely based on what he's feeling on an emotional level, to see "will Megatron back me on this?"

because Megatron does stuff like that all the time, he's far from being a better tactician than Starscream, (notice how the moment Starscream leaves in season 1, the decepticons stop winning like, at all until he comes back?) and he makes rash decisions out of anger all the time, and Starscream goes along with all of it, every single time, so it's only fair that Megatron lets him get away with doing something kinda stupid this once. and when Megatron inevitably doesn't, either because it would work against the Decepticons own goals, or purely because he doesn't want Starscream to think he has power over him, (and despite how good he is at hiding it, Starscream does have power over him in a lot of ways, I might talk about that some other time.) Starscream lashes out, betrays Megatron, and leaves, because once again all the loyalty he gave to Megatron got him nothing in return.

and let's be clear, Starscream doing this is toxic as fuck, but at the same time of course it is, it's almost impossible not to become toxic in an environment like this. And that really comes back to bite you when you get out of that environment, but on a base level still have these habits and base level impulses that might have helped you survive back then but are terrible for the actually decent people you've surrounded yourself with now.

With that, we cut to today, where Starscream is an autobot and he tries to pull one of these "tests" on Optimus because the honeymoon phase is over and Starscream is instinctually ready for things to start getting worse, maybe they had like, one minor argument and Starscream instantly assumed the worst. and I imagine Optimus "fails" the test, says "no, I'm not backing you on this, I'm not gonna let you do that", but unlike Megatron who does so while prioritizing his own ends and his control over Starscream, Optimus is saying no for moral reasons. And I imagine he tries to explain that to Starscream, but that answer isn't hitting him properly because again, Starscream's only thinking in loyalty.

Everything Optimus thought was progress on Starscream's part in living up to autobot ideals was really just newfound intense loyalty to Optimus, his growth was really just him doing what he thinks Optimus would want him to do and what he thinks would gain him Optimus's loyalty in return. and, from Starscream's perspective, it didn't work, so he's thinking "obviously Optimus doesn't care about me at all, fuck him, I'm out of here." so he makes this big display of betraying the autobots and running away.

and from there, it's the question of if Optimus sees through what this is really about. The other autobots are probably no help in that regard, they all probably fall into one of two groups, the "At no point in time was I not 100% sure that this inevitably was going to happen" group, and the "I mean, I had hope for him, and it seemed like he was doing good, but I'm still not that surprised" group.

But of course, Optimus isn't Megatron, he does care about Starscream and wants him to know that, so I imagine he actually tries tracking down Starscream to have an actual conversation with him to try and figure out where his mind has really been at these past few months, and if he catches on to even a little bit of the subtext of what I've been saying here, he's gonna be like "oh shit, there is a lot more we need to work on than I thought."

and yeah, Megatron fucked up Starscream in ways that its gonna take years to properly unpack, so Starscream is lucky to have found quite possibly the best person to help him through it in Optimus. It's gonna be a rocky road, but Optimus is in for the ride.

and I do think this relationship could eventually become healthy, and I like reading fics where they've managed to make it healthy, but I do think at first it really wouldn't be, and as someone with the autism that makes you obsessed with themes and motifs and subtext, the process of seeing it become better, of seeing Starscream have to unlearn these old harmful defense mechanisms, THAT is really what makes my brain vibrate, especially because I've had to go through that same process myself after finally getting away from my personal Megatron for what I'm thankfully certain now is the final time.

also kinda realizing a lot of this kinda sounds like borderline personality disorder, which. that might be something I have to look into in regards to myself, damn. anyways, yeah, thanks for letting me kill the vibe again, appreciate it! I'll probably try and keep these shorter in the future, I imagine it's kind of a lot to suddenly have 1500 words of deep character analysis with hints of traumadumping suddenly thrown in your askbox lol. If this actually was a bit too much then I'm sorry, you can tell me to dial it down a little if you want.

and this, right here, is why starop is my favorite transformers ship.

you really hit the nail on the head with this one. when done well, it's not only cute and fun to explore, but it's also a deep dive into starscream as a character and what could possibly lead to a redemption arc. sure, you don't need starscream to fall in love with optimus to redeem him, but how that would actually play out is so fascinating.

sure, i love aus where starscream is an autobot spy the whole time. yes, i love aus where they were in love in the past and got separated. but the idea of starscream replacing megatron with optimus in his mind fits him so well, because, as an abuse victim myself, it's easy to find yourself drawn to people who remind you of your abuser.

and that's where optimus' kindness sets him apart, because when starscream pushes back on him, optimus doesn't do what starscream expects. he doesn't lash out or hit him or verbally berate him. he responds with honest concern, trying to figure out what's wrong.

and that kindness, that sincerity, is something starscream doesn't even realize he's been missing the entire time.

i do believe they have the potential to be healthy, but the fight towards them actually becoming healthy and helping starscream get out of his toxic mindset is part of what makes these two so damn compelling.

always happy to have another starop fan.

(also you don't have to worry about toning it down lmao, gods know i ramble like a maniac about my favorite things. i'm not gonna be the one to judge)

[novafire-is-thinking]

@cadet-songbird

[dat-lil-shark]

I found more TFP Characters Stats and they are VERY Interesting

So over a week ago I found out that in the Japanese airing of Transformer Prime, they put up these commercials in between episodes that displays the characters stats. Back then I only found Soundwave’s, but now I’ve found almost everyone.

Again, I have no guarantee that these are canon enough, cause it's made by Japanese, who made Airachnid a yandere.

But it’s fun to assume they are.

(SPOILERS ALERT)

First of all. MEGATRON ACTUALLY HAVE HIGHER INTELLIGENCE STATS THAN OPTIMUS!!!??? (Op got 8 and MT got 9)

Not only that but also higher speed and firepower TOO (OP got 7 speed and 9 firepower, and MT got 9 speed and 10 firepower).

Sure Optimus got bigger courage and skills but in battlefields if MT is not so dr**ed up he might just win a lot more.

And speaking of unexpected intelligence.

Compared to Arcee, Airachnid also got WAY higher intelligence (AH 9 and RC 7) and slightly higher strength (AH 5 and RC 4) AND FIREPOWER (AH 5 and RC 4).

I was at first surprised how Airachnid could be so smart but then it did made sense since she was able to always lure Arcee into her fun cave to beat her up and was able to easily kill Breakdown.

(And I know technically this was supposed to be the Japanese yandere Airachnid but— let’s just ignore that— maybe let’s pretend it’s the normal Airachnid okay? Please?)

But Arcee got 9 on courage.

Airachnid might got the cunning but at least Arcee got the feral.

And the way Arcee only got 7 on the intelligence out here is breaking stereotypes that the only girl in the group has to be smart.

Luckily not all Autobot and Decepticon rivalry ends in a Decepticon topping the Autobot.

For example.

Bulkhead is a lot— AND I MEAN A LOT better than Breakdown is.

He’s got higher strength (BH 10 and BD 9), intelligence(BH 5 and BD 4), courage (BH 8 and BD7), rank (BH 6 and BD 4) AND firepower (BH 7 and BD 6)

Bruh Breakdown is competing with Bulkhead just because he is insecure 😂😂😂😅😅

Bulkhead can actually sweep the floor with Breakdown if he wanna!

also I think Breakdown got the lowest stat in intelligence and rank than any other characters here.

This actually does explain how Breakdown could be killed so easily by Airachnid, honestly, since Airachnid got more than twice as much intelligence as him.

Well at least we know Knockout married him for true love.

And speaking of Knockout.

He’s SO WEAK!! 😂😂😂😂

Dude Knockout is an absolute LOOSER!! (At least according to the Japanese)

He LITTERALLY GOT 5 SKILLS, ENDOURANCE, AND 4 COURAGE!!

THAT IS ALMOST THE SAME ENDOURANCE AND ALMOST HALF THE COURAGE AS ARCEE (who is about only 1/2 of his body size btw) (his buff armours are just for shows) AND HALF THE SKILL OF RATCHET!!

HOW DID KNOCKOUT EVEN MANAGED TO BE A MEDIC!!

He is only a bit good on speeds. Now no wonder he loves racing ITS THE ONLY THING HE IS GOOD AT!! Bro litterally covers himself in makeups cause he’s too self aware 😂😂😂!

I wondered how he managed to lie so perfectly on his job resume.

And speaking of medics.

Ratchet is WAY better in everything than I expected.

He’s more than twice the medic Knockout would ever be.

He actually got EIGHT endurance which is surprising, cause that is only one star lower than Bulkhead!

The doctor might be old but he’s still got armors and bones as strong as boulders.

No wonder he kept getting beaten up in this serie but just got up fine and never snap his back once like my own grandpa after standing up from his chair.

Wheeljack on the other hand is also not bad at all.

He got 9 skills. I guess that’s what got him to be able to make all his terrorist toys.

Also it’s funny cause he’s only got 8 endurance, that’s 2 stars lower than Ratchet.

Could you just IMAGINE Wheeljack and Ratchet fist bumping as hard as they could but it was Wheeljack who ended up having to grab his fists in pain??

Also he only got 6 intelligence?? That’s honestly far lower than I excepted tbh. That is only one star higher than Bulkhead.

No wonder Ultra Magnus has such a bad time.

(it’s also funny how Arcee criticized Wheeljack for impulsively going to avenge Bulkhead when she herself is only like, one stat smarter, and does that with Airachnid on a daily basis (sure she didn’t drag any humans in but she is still barely better).

(Also by the way, speaking of Ultra Magnus, he doesn’t have a stat page unfortunately cause the Japanese TFP never got a season 3, it just ends at Optimus breaking the Alpha lock and that’s it, which means Ultra Magnus never appeared, and neither did Shockwave (beside that one Arcee flashback) and Predaking unfortunately).

Oh and the Dreadwing Skyquake twins are over powered.

Just look at them!

They are almost the exact same in stats except Skyquake got more endourance and Dreadwing got more fire power.! If Megatron had both of them at the same time they could just deep fry the Autobots in episode 10!

RIP Skyquake you had SO much POTENCIALS man. And to think that even the PRIME HIMSELF ALONE can’t take you out without major help from Bumblebee.

And speaking of Bumblebee.

HE MAXED OUT ON COURAGE.

Listen no one else in this whole list got courage 10 except Bumblebee.

Not Arcee, not Optimus, not Ratchet, not Smokescreen, and not even Wheeljack.

HE IS FERAL!!

Damn it man now thinking back I don’t think I recall a SINGLE MOMENT in the entire show, although it wasn’t obvious first time through, that Bumblebee actually considered for his own safety before doing anything. And it’s not even in an “I am willing to sacrifice my own safety for the greater good” way but a “Oh I’m gonna lose a leg for this but it’ll be nice? Sign me up!” Way! “Psyc link into Megatron? Count me in!” “Jump on top of Skyquake? You bet!” “Run straight toward Silas when you can litterally wait for 5 more minutes but then you can get your t cog back for five more minute earlier? I’m coming!!”

If it’s not for the fact that Bumblebee got a good dad that he’s happy to listen to he will be a bigger disaster than Wheeljack is.

The other kid, Smokescreen, is just a tad bit weaker. But he’s way better than I expected since he only just joined this war. (*cough cough* way better than Knockout).

However,

on the other servo.

Starscream is OVERPOWERED.

Bro has got EIGHT STRENGTH despite his skinny arms (same as Skyquake & Dreadwing), NINE SPEED (faster than Megatron), NINE FIREPOWER (same as Optimus) and TEN FRAGGING SKILLS (same as RATCHET)

Honestly. If it weren’t for the 3 courage, DUDE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE TAKING OVER MEGATRON!!! He

is

strong.

He honestly doesn’t even need the apex armour tbh! And there are countless times he got defeated probably only because he froze in fear or else he could have absolutely fought back and won!!

That 3 courage ruined him.

Also they don’t have Cliffjumper too and that is very unfair tbh cause Skyquake also appeared for only one episode but got his, and pretty unfortunate cause I really wanna see how strong exactly Cliff was before his death.

[quibbs126]

Yesterday I saw someone on Twitter mentioning the babyfication of Bumblebee in the fandom, and that's been somewhat of a thought in my mind before, so I figured "eh, might as well write my own thoughts on the matter myself". Though in a tumblr post, since Twitter has a character limit and I don't feel like doing a thread

So yeah, that's what this is

Why does Bumblebee get babyfied so much in the Transformers fandom?

Disclaimer though: I'm only really touching on the shows and movies and how they might contribute to the issue, and only the ones I've seen, so no Unicron Trilogy or RID 2015. And probably not much on the live action movies either since I remember them very little, just design things. I've also not read any of the comics, so they aren't weighing in either

I'm also not claiming I have the definitive answers, just some guesses based on my own understandings. I'm very socially inept, so I could be completely wrong. It's also why I'm not touching on the fandom side much

My friend told me to put a "read more" tab on this after showing her what I was doing, and yeah I probably should. Take note that this is an absolute monster of a post, this took me hours to write. So be warned

But yeah anyways, let's start this

Oh right, I should probably start with what I mean by "babyfied", so we all are on the same page here. The biggest things I think are making Bumblebee a teenager or child, whether in interpretations of canon material, AUs of official series, or people's own versions of the Transformers (though note the most damning one here is the first one, seeing a canon Bee as a kid, specifically when it is not shown that he is one. The third one is completely fine, it just is a symptom I think), and then also basically just making Bumblebee Optimus' son, or Elita's, or Megatron's, or a combination of characters; basically, just making Bumblebee someone's kid

I'll be tackling it in a general order of the shows/movies and how they contribute to the issue, starting with:

G1 cartoon

So in g1, I will admit, I think I can see Bee and Optimus having some sort of father-son relationship, at least in moments; like Attack of the Autobots which is where Optimus and Bumblebee have that iconic little hug

But I mean also, Optimus just kind of generally has paternal vibes in g1, he feels like everyone's dad. I think it might just get magnified with Bumblebee because Bumblebee is small and probably has the "cutest" personality of the Minicars, so it's just him from that group. And also, he's got a cute little Beetle car as his alt, which factors into it

He also does seem to have been written with the idea of him being younger, at least that's how the toy description feels to me

He was also Spike's best Autobot friend, and as I'm pretty sure Spike was supposed to be the young teenage human for the kids to relate to more, that probably helps with his youth factor

Though he is still functionally an adult. But I don't think the problem is as bad here, since let's be real, people mostly remember g1 for the nostalgia, iconic moments, and being the origins of the franchise; people aren't really making g1 AUs outside of that one person with the Orion Pax and Megatron knowing each other AU

So from the start, he's always had this, but I don't think we can call it an issue at this point. But it does bring in some of the main factors in the babyfication of Bee, namely:

He's small, which can give the impression of younger

He generally is one of the younger bots, even if he's still an adult

He tends to be the main friend of a human protagonist, who generally tend to be kids or teenagers

These will show up again, so keep them in mind. Now, let's move onto our next show, 23 years later

Animated

So in Animated, Bumblebee is yet again, one of the youngest members of the main cast, though this is specifically told to us, like how Sentinel, one of Optimus' contemporaries (and TFA OP is meant to be on the younger side of his variations too), was Bee's drill sergeant, as well as just Bee's general behavior

He is also the smallest member of the main cast, which can contribute to the feeling of him being younger

He is also friends with the human protagonist Sari, who is an 8-year-old at the start of the show, and the two of them tend to go along with each other's crazy schemes, rather than Bee trying to be responsible with Sari; that's more Optimus' job.

What I didn't pick up until way later than I probably should have was that Bulkhead is around the same age as Bumblebee, thus making him also one of the youngest members of the cast. Which honestly in retrospect, makes a lot of sense with how he's written, and him also being one of Sari's closest friends. I think why I didn't pick up on it while watching however comes from two things: 1, he's like the biggest member of the main cast, which doesn't immediately make me think he's one of the younger members, even though younger people being big is something they can be (I mean my brother's like 6 feet tall and he's not even 15 yet), and then 2: Transformers Prime Bulkhead, aka the one from the show that might be more popular than TFA, is very much an adult, and that was the Bulkhead I knew. So I didn't know he was supposed to be younger

We'll swing back around to Prime later, I think it's one of the main contributors to the issue, but keep in mind that interpretations from popular series tend to stay in mind and bleed over into other shows and their versions, even if that's not how they are

But back to Bumblebee, things generally aren't super different between this and g1, other than the fact that he and Optimus don't have much of a parent-child dynamic, and that this Bee definitely is on the younger side in canon, though probably still an adult? I'm not sure, but he can't mentally be more than like, very early 20s. But it happening again does reinforce these ideas of Bumblebee as a younger bot

In fanon, I don't know if the TFA side has this much of an issue, at least nowadays? I see him get shipped with Blitzwing and Prowl plenty, and I don't see him as Optimus' kid, other than like one time with the "9 months in my womb" meme, and him being an oplita kid, which might have just been for the joke and also TFA Elita was yellow, so eh. But I'm also not too big on the TFA side of the fandom anyways, so I could be wrong

So before we get to Prime, I just want to sidestep into the movies that were also coming out at the time

Bayverse/live-action movies

Now I can't say much on the writing front with Bee, since I have not seen any of these movies in a hot minute, outside of the first hour and a half of the 2007 movie. I will say though, based on what I saw of Bee there (aka mostly his car shenanigans), that is not a child, that is a sassy little bastard man. Though that could be because Bay was trying to market more to like, teenage boys and trying to make him "cooler"

But anyways, what I wanted to talk about was his design, and how it contributes to the babyfication issue

The Bay movies gave Bumblebee a redesign, looking pretty different from his original design (though that goes for pretty much everyone except Optimus)

The thing I notice most with these movie designs is how round they make him, specifically with his eyes, being so big and round, especially later. While it was probably originally just a reference to bug eyes, it makes him cuter looking, more innocent. I think by Bumblebee, they were trying to capitalize on that in the movie, making him seem cute and non-threatening in certain scenes so Charlie knows he's not a danger. Which makes sense, but it does contribute to the problem here

And in general, he's a lot rounder I think in his design. And while I'm not expert on shape language, I think I can gather that more round shapes leads to him looking more friendly and less threatening and cuter in our minds, and "cuter" leads to "younger". That's why I keep bringing up "cute" by the way, forgot to say earlier. Cuteness tends to be associated with youthfulness and thus younger characters more

And in general with Bumblebee, him being yellow, a bright color more associated with joy and optimism, and thus youth, and generally having a more optimistic and extroverted personality (though not necessarily in the Bay movies, though I can't say for sure) again leads into him being younger. Now it probably came from the fact that bees are yellow, thus he's yellow (and also black), and his personality came from that bright color. Actually the name probably also comes from the yellow color scheme, but you get it. His color scheme and personality lends Bee to being a younger character

Back to Bayverse, it did change Bumblebee's alt mode from a Beetle to a Camaro (again probably to make him "cooler"), and I think since then, Bumblebee's basically always been a sports car, outside of explicitly g1 referencing things. So it does tend to take away the "smaller" aspect of what makes him seem so young, as he's more average sized now. But the youthful connotations don't necessarily go away

This is also (I think) what started the trend of Bumblebee losing his voice, being replaced with either radio/movie clips, or just beeps that the characters can understand. Now while I'm not too sure how this affects him in Bayverse, as I haven't seen much of Bee proper in the movies in a long time (the first half of the first movie is pretty much just car Bee), and since I know he can still talk in some way, it does mean you focus less on his dialogue and how that characterizes him, and more on his appearance and actions (at least in robot mode). Or he just doesn't talk, and you can have your own interpretations of what he's saying. And as mentioned prior, his design tends to make him look cuter, adding to the issue. I'll get more into this in Prime, since I am familiar with Prime, and he doesn't talk at all there

He's also again, I'm pretty sure one of the younger bots, despite probably being an adult. We'll go over that more in Prime

I don't think I have much else to say on these movies, so to go over the general points, this seemed to cause a bit of a shift in Bumblebee's portrayals. He got a bigger alt mode, so he's not tiny anymore, but he got big round eyes that make him seem cuter, rounder features, and he lost his voice, which means you can fill in the gaps in what he's saying in your head

Now, let's get to the real meat of this, and I think the biggest cause of this all:

Prime

I hope I didn't hype this section up too much. But I think this is where all the things conglomerate into the main factors of Bee's babyfication

Bumblebee is not the smallest bot, but the smallest is the female motorcycle bot, as opposed to his sports car, so. He is the youngest Autobot, and bot in general outside of I guess the Predacons, until Smokescreen comes in in Season 2, who is also considered young. He and Optimus have a close relationship, that given their age differences, could be read as paternal. He's got the big round eyes of Bayverse and a generally round design, which we've already discussed as to how it contributes to the problem. He also does not speak at all, only using beeps that we the audience cannot understand, until the finale. His designated human friend is the youngest human companion here, and the most child of them, being only 12. All these factors combine to create the most "baby" Bumblebee so far

(I just added a picture since I felt like I needed to. But there's not much to talk about design-wise that wasn't in the Bay section)

First up, the age thing. I keep saying that Bumblebee is one of the youngest bots in the casts, even though he's technically an adult. This is true, in part because as far as we can see in canon, Transformers don't really have "child" stages, they're just born adults. And they don't really age; or well, they do, it just takes millions and millions of years to do so, so they're functionally immortal. So, they don't really age like us humans, physically and probably mentally too, given they skip the young child years. So I mean like, technically speaking, Bee's an adult, it's not really clear where that translates into our perception, so maybe he's more mentally a child? I don't think I'm making sense here, maybe ignore this section

But he is younger, and particularly in Prime, he's in a team of bots all much older than him. If I were to put them in mental human years, I'd say he and Smokescreen are probably somewhere in their early 20s, while everyone else is probably like, 35+. Bee is notably younger than his peers, and we are made aware of this fact. And this makes him appear even younger than he is

If I were to make a comparison, and maybe this is a bit random, but take Mouthwashing for example. I may never have been super knowledgeable of the fandom, but I am aware that Daisuke is like, 22, while everyone else on the Tulpar is 35+, and that makes him feel so much younger by comparison. He's only just started his adult life, compared to the far more experienced adults around him. And while I didn't see it, I do think I remember seeing people talk about how people kept portraying Daisuke as younger and more innocent than he is when he's a 22-year-old man. I also remember someone comparing the portrayals of Daisuke in the fandom with another character from another series (I think it was Omori?), who was the same age as Daisuke, but because that character is the oldest of the protagonist group, everyone else being children or teenagers, he was portrayed super differently to Daisuke. The other character had to be responsible and make mature decisions, while Daisuke is allowed to be silly and reckless. The point I'm trying to make here is that age, and how a character is portrayed and interpreted, is relative to the characters surrounding them, with the characters on the extremes sometimes getting exacerbated because of it. This is true in real life too, but for the sake of analysis

Bumblebee is the youngest member of the Autobot team (at least until Smokescreen), and thus, he feels even younger as a result. This is probably also helped by the fact that there's no Decepticons around his age either, everyone around Bumblebee is a full-grown adult by comparison. And his close relationship with Optimus, who is meant to be one of the older bots in the group, feels very paternal, which serves to make Bee feel again younger, like he's Optimus' son. Which I like here, but it furthers the issue

And on the topic of him just feeling younger, let's bring up Raf. Bumblebee is again a friend of a human protagonist, but in Prime we have 3 main humans, ranging in ages but all in grade school, and each one has an Autobot they're paired with. And Bumblebee gets Raf, the youngest member at around 12. Due to Raf's youngest member status and technically not being a teenager, he is, as I said before, the most "child" of the group, even if they're all technically children still. I thought he was 10 until I double checked and saw he was 12, and honestly, I feel like he feels younger than Sari did, who was only 8 when we met her. Probably because unlike Sari who had no human friends, Raf does, both of whom are older than him and treat him as such. It's the relative age thing again

But back to Bee, unlike with the other humans and bots, Bee doesn't act as the responsible adult, but more of a friend for Raf, though not nearly as chaotic as TFA Bee and Sari. They aren't causing trouble; they're just having fun and cute moments. There's again, the cuteness factor that probably contributes to the young feeling he brings, but it also serves to make Bumblebee not feel as much as an adult. Arcee is definitely an adult with Jack, and Bulkhead particularly gives me responsible adult vibes with Miko, at least on some occasions where they aren't indulging in fun, reckless behavior and Bulkhead has to get serious with her. They're responsible with the kids, even if they slip up at times, and help them learn things. But Bee doesn't have that with Raf, probably because Bee can't talk and give him the lesson. Raf also doesn't cause much trouble on his own and has Ratchet for that

Which segues me nicely into Bumblebee's lack of voice in this show. This was a carryover from Bayverse, since Hasbro was still trying to have synergy with the movies at that point. But instead of radio clips, he just beeps, with the other bots and Raf just being able to understand him, even though we the audience don't. And because of this, we never know what he's saying, and he also just straight up doesn't have a voice for us to gauge his age with. Thus, it's up to us the audience to fill in the blanks in our imaginations. But with all of the discussed factors of him being cute and young, we can just end up interpreting him as younger because of it. It's also again, probably because he doesn't talk. It's like R2D2 and BB-8, who only speak in beeps, but because they're cute, we see them probably as much cuter than they would be if we knew what they were actually saying (R2 especially)

To maybe go off on a weird tangent, I think child characters tend to be seen more as objects than people, or I guess objectified more, since they don't have fully developed brains and personalities and are less likely to be able to hold their own in a fight. They're things to be protected and loved and angst over, while all they need to do is be there and be cute. I think the lack of voice ties into this in a way, I just don't know how to explain it, other than like, because they took away his voice, we can see him as even cuter and child-like instead of the grown adult he is. Infantalization, that's what I'm trying to say. I think that's term for all of this, but you get what I mean by "babyfication"

Especially because at least for me, when Bumblebee did get his voice back, I started seeing him more as an adult, because he could actually talk and had an adult voice. Yes, him learning to take more of a leadership role in Predacons Rising is also a factor, but him having a voice now is part of it too. But he only got it back in the finale and the movie, so you spend pretty much the entire show with voiceless Bumblebee, and what comes with that

I think that wraps up everything about Prime Bee's portrayal, but now let me get into why I think overall, it was what really caused this baby Bee thing to stick

Like I said prior in the Animated section, the more something's repeated, the more it sticks, and these traits of Bumblebee being the youngest have been consistent throughout the series we've covered. Not to mention, I just think personality wise, this Bee feels the youngest/child-like, though again, it probably has to do with his company and lack of voice. And also, the fact that he's well-behaved, like how people want children to be

So, by this point, this interpretation of Bumblebee is stuck in our minds as how he is, younger than the rest of the team

But I think another big thing is that Transfomers Prime is probably the biggest series in the fandom, at least show-wise. G1 was influential and Animated is still popular, but no show comes close to the amount of popularity I see for Prime stuff, particularly their brand of megop or for their Decepticons in general. The only thing I've seen come close is Transformers One, which is also the newest one and what brought new people in during this wave, so who knows if it'll stick forever. I'm not sure where IDW stands though, because I know that was big too

If I had to attribute Prime's success in the fandom to things, I'd say it's because plenty of people around my age (20s-ish?), who are definitely online and on social media, grew up with Prime (though I will note that Transformers tends to have an older fandom than I'm used to), the fact that for a long time, Prime was easily accessible in its entirety on Netflix, long before the streaming wars (and this is how I watched the show), it generally has good writing and animation, it feels like it had a complete story, unlike Animated which had Season 4 cancelled, and Frank Welker and Peter Cullen were back as Megatron and Optimus, making them feel more "definitive". Among probably other things I'm missing

But the point is, Prime is big, and it'll take a lot to dethrone it, outside of possibly some TF One sequels sticking the landing after the first movie. But that's not certain at the moment

And like I said before, popular interpretations tend to bleed into other series and interpretations, even when they don't entirely fit. There's a reason when people want Knock Out in another show, they basically want more TFP Knock Out, design and character wise, or why Breakdown was in Earthspark without the other Stunticons. Or why people basically try to recreate the g1 backstory when making Skyfire and skystar for their stories, even when I'm not really sure versions of Starscreams would ever be scientists. Why Functionism will show up in fanfics despite something like TF One not really having a place for it outside of the cogless thing. Why people will instinctively ship megop across continuities despite it not working as well in some (*cough cough TFA cough*). Why Megatron and Optimus have largely had the same backstories for ~15 years, with One being probably the most different, but still the same general beats. It happens both in canon and fanon, but it definitely happens

So when Prime Bumblebee is portrayed as young, and probably intentionally, it sticks in our minds that Bumblebee is very young and usually will be. He's like Optimus' son here, especially since he explicitly is younger than him. He's cute and friendly, even if he can get into trouble sometimes. He's just a little guy

And by this point, the franchise was like, 30 years old. There's been a number of series, and a lot of the general staples of the series had been set and remain today. I'd argue Prime is the last of the "foundational" series in this franchise, at least where we are now with it; we could end up going in another direction in the future. So it's gonna be hard to just change how we see the characters here

The shows after

I won't go into each one in detail after this, because let's be real, this is long enough already. And again, I don't think at this stage, anything other than One has left as much of an impact on the fandom/series

We're skipping over RID 2015 since I haven't watched it, but I do think it's one of the shows with the least of this problem. Probably because he is at least initially surrounded by characters his age or younger, so the age relativity isn't a factor

Cyberverse actually has Bumblebee around the same age as Optimus here, not being notably younger, but that holds true for everyone in that series; basically everyone here is the same age, outside of like, Cheetor. I don't interact with the Cyberverse fandom enough to know how it fares with Bee there, but given he's a main character, probably more than Optimus, he's probably doing fine?

Though I have to admit I personally find it weird when Bee gets shipped, because surprise, I too have some amount of the babybee influence on me too. I mention it here because there's genuinely nothing wrong with shipping Bumblebee and Windblade here, if anything it makes so much sense; it's just that I can't get out of my head that Bee is supposed to be younger, and thus, shouldn't be shipped

I know nothing about the War for Cybertron trilogy

Earthspark Bumblebee is another case of being hit with the baby beam the least, which I think is attributed to his role as the Terrans' mentor. Once again, he is put as an older character instead of younger, and even more so than RID because he's the main adult teaching our young child protagonists. The age relativity is working in his favor this time. Most you're gonna get is him being called megop's child of divorce, but those two are old anyways

So far, canon wise, it doesn't seem that bad

But then we get to One, which is where I think the problem is really rearing its ugly head. See, B-127 is never said to be younger than the rest of the quartet, he's assumed to be the same age as them. Heck, you could maybe even see him as a bit older, given his odd knowledge and having been in Sublevel 50 so long. But B is constantly portrayed as younger than the rest, being the child of divorce, but actually more "child" this time, him basically being Optimus and/or Elita's son (Megatron is another parent too), despite no indication of such a bond in the movie outside of just being friends (even less so with Elita, whom he has the least screen time with of the group), or just straight up being made into a child or baby for the rest of the group to parent, despite it taking out a member of the group, especially when again, he is not said to be younger

But it keeps happening to him because it's the new popular series and some are coming in with prior expectations and knowledge of B and his relationships, that Bee must always be baby, and probably because he's very energetic and hyper and probably neurodivergent, which has a history of getting characters infantalized. Not saying everyone who sees him as younger is problematic or ableist for doing so, just that this probably contributes on some level to why it's so widespread

I think I've covered all my points at this rate. Are we finally done? Can I go do my schoolwork? Sorry, just random, I've been here for a while

So, to summarize, why does Bumblebee get babyfied so much?

Because Bee has a long history as being young, he's put around older characters who make him feel younger by comparison, he's got a design that lends him to be seen as cute and young, especially in the most well-known depictions (I mostly mean g1, Bayverse and Prime here), the fact that the show were all of these traits are at their biggest is also the most popular show, and thus influencing people's minds going forward that this is how he should be, even when it doesn't fit so well

And I don't think this mentality around Bee is going away anytime soon, and it isn't necessarily wrong to make Bee a young bot, but I think we should acknowledge that sometimes it's trying to fit a square in a round hole, it just doesn't fit as well, and we need to be mindful of that

[novafire-is-thinking]

No worries. When I sent the ask, I expected to be waiting I while. I know you’re busy.

Anyway, this is so very interesting to me. I have thoughts…

Note: I neither remember, nor care enough about TFA Shockwave to comment on that version of him, so I’ll take your word for it and focus on TFP and IDW. Cyberverse is another Shockwave I like, but I don’t think I’ll get around to him.

Shipping

All canon characters are asexual by default, but for the sake of this post, I’ll assume sexual attraction in Cybertronians is possible.

So…my personal headcanons for both:

TFP Shockwave: Aroace

IDW Shockwave: Sapioromantic + Ace

Except for Pre-Shadowplay IDW Shockwave, I have difficulty shipping Shockwave with anyone, romantically. But if I ever do, verbally affectionate, doting Shockwave is a huge no for me as well. (I make an exception for Pre-Shadowplay Shockwave though. He’s special. But still…no excessive gushy stuff. Bleh.)

As for everything else you mentioned, I agree 100%. That’s exactly how I think TFP or IDW Shockwave should be written in a ship-centric story, if the author is aiming for accurate characterization.

Everything Else

This part of your answer was particularly interesting to me, since I see IDW and TFP Shockwave the other way around.

IDW Shockwave

Pre-Shadowplay: Deeply emotional, but externally distant—except for when one of his personal values comes into play (his passion for science, his rage at Proteus’ actions, etc.)

Post-Shadowplay: Emotionally detached. Emotions rarely reach his conscious awareness. I could see him experiencing mild anxiety or frustration on the rare occasion he’s unable to anticipate a challenge in his plans.

After Dark Cybertron: Emotional, but still remains detached. I say this because, after Shockwave is thrown back in time, he literally says, “…and my newly reborn emotions stirred.” I highly doubt he had his full emotional range back, but I like to think it was still a struggle for him to maintain control over whatever emotional depth was restored.

To me, IDW Shockwave is similar to Nikola Tesla. I’ve obsessively studied Tesla’s life, and when I read Shockwave’s story, I see some similarities.

Asceticism is another significant trait of his [Tesla’s] mysterious personality. This extraordinary person managed to steel himself to become a less emotional person and channel all of his life potential and energy towards one goal: to discover new things and create new work. (source)

There are a few other interesting similarities between Shockwave and Tesla, but I’m saving those for another post.

You mentioned Shockwave and anger. And while I also think it was one of the few emotions he was able to feel, I believe he was primarily motivated by fear.

All this to say, how I prefer to see IDW Shockwave written depends on which stage of his life the fic takes place during.

TFP Shockwave

In the IDW Aligned comics, Shockwave is described as, “The Decepcticons’ master scientist, as ruthless as he is emotionless.”

I have trouble seeing TFP Shockwave as anything besides cold and ruthless (not to be confused with cruel; Shockwave is never unnecessarily cruel.)

To me, he always was, and always will be detached. Any emotional experience is dull/diluted, except anger at those who mess with his work.

“. . .Shockwave, always dispassionate and detached, always following his only passion—knowledge…” —Alpha Trion, The Covenant of Primus

“Shockwave, you would bring down all of creation just to satisfy your own ambition.” —Alpha Trion, Transformers: Retribution

It’s interesting that Alpha Trion uses the word “ambition” here, because TFP Shockwave doesn’t strike me as ambitious in the same way IDW Shockwave does.

TFP Shockwave is different from IDW Shockwave in that he has no higher ambitions outside of discovery for personal satisfaction.

from Transformers: Exodus

TFP doesn’t believe in some greater good like his IDW counterpart does. He’s there to play with discoveries like toys, while IDW is out there working toward his greater vision for “saving the world.”

So, yeah—this is how I prefer to see my top favorite versions of Shockwave.

Thanks for taking the time to share your preferences. It’s interesting to see how other fans see him.

Inspired by your recent tags…

How do you prefer to see Shockwave written, and why?

(I’m especially curious about IDW and TFP.)

Sorry I've had like 3 asks sitting in my askbox for forever now bc school has been kicking my ass 😭😭 but that post came up on my dash again and reminded me to answer this--

BUT UHHHH, so tbh I very strongly see Shockwave as either aroace or demiromantic & demisexual... like. Pretty much all iterations of him, ESPECIALLY IDW and TFP. TF:A is pretty much the only exception to this in which I could see him being closer to just allo... but still somewhere on the demi spectrum... and a loooot of ways I see him written in fanfic makes him very uhh... hmm how do I explain... doting?? Or very Affectionate or... well, all the things people like in a fluff fic.

And yanno that's fine, maybe that's some people's cup of tea but it's not mine. To me, Shocks is very very stoic and dry, even in relationships. I don't even like seeing him in the "stoic person who is soft with their s/o" trope because I just don't think Shockwave is a soft person, in any meaning of the word.

I could see him maybe, like... being slightly less stoic and more introspective and TALKATIVE with someone he likes... and LESS RUDE skdndks and more willing to spend time with them and LISTEN. That's how I prefer to see him written. Someone who is still very quiet and introverted and keeps to himself, even around the people he loves. Like, you know, sometimes he'll have days where he just... needs to be alone and needs you to leave him alone and if you want to be his partner you gotta be okay with that. But he'll also give you more time, speak softer, ramble about the things he's working on, have MORE PATIENCE with you, and... I think he would be more touchy in a very gentle way, like he's studying you.

But outside of that, any kind of gushy or lovey shockwave that says anything even somewhat adjacent to affectionate that isn't something ridiculously stiff like "I find you less miserable to be in company with" just rubs me the wrong way and gives me ick. I think the most affectionate thing I could see him saying is in whump. Like, a moment of desperation that could make him say "I need you", but I think "I love you" is not something he's ever going to be comfortable saying - he shows it, not says it.

TF:A Shockwave is the only one I can make an exception for but it's just because that boy is fucked up. TFA Shockwave is not capable of a healthy relationship SKDSJJDBSKSNS. He's either going to be controlling and possessive in a snakeish and insidious kind of way, or absolute unquestioning devotion. I just don't think TF:A shockwave is... like... as a PERSON capable of being in a healthy relationship unless he went to fucking therapy or had some kind of redemption arc in which case I would place him back in demi territory that is similar to the other descriptions I was talking about earlier.

Writing in GENERAL, without shipping involved? IDW shockwave is fucking insane. He is so so manipulative. He has a million equations and plans going on in his head at all times and he can and will save everyone for better or for worse - and he doesn't care what it takes to get there. That man isn't capable of any emotion except for pursuance of a goal, and maybe anger. Or, if he does feel emotion, it's very very dull and diluted. If he had it restored I think it would destroy him. I read a fic once where Rung accidentally restored his emotions and that one is very very good, I like that shockwave quite a bit.

TF:P Shockwave I think experiences emotions very much, but has a tendency to hide them because he's a very internal person. I don't think he will ever verbally express it, though, unless you REALLY piss him off. For the most part he's very stoic and blunt, and doesn't sugarcoat things... so he will be rude sometimes, but won't go out of his way to be. Some people write him way too cruel and it also rubs me the wrong way... but I also don't like seeing him written too nice either. He's doing his own thing and could really care less about what's going on around him, except for maybe Soundwave who I think he could work well with because of the matching intellect, and Megatron who I think he honestly just works with for the reliable material and the praise (and to piss off Starscream, who annoys him.) I think he can be petty, but doesn't go out of his way to be. I think he values his experiments very much, though, and sabotaging him is a surefire way to get him to try and kill you.

Basically, overall: unless we're talking about TFA Shockwave (who is goofy and cruel), I like a shockwave who is aloof, dry, passionate about what he does to a fault, doesn't talk a lot, respects those of similar intellect, does what he does either for knowledge or to pursue some "greater good", and isn't needlessly cruel. He can show some emotion but not too much, and expresses himself mostly through body language and actions, not words.

[isi567]

Ok so I really need to talk about Transformers Prime Starscream and some crazy stuff he did

One thing about him is that he almost killed Optimus Prime in the first season ( Season 1 episode 14) , used warriors Megatron forgot about (Skyquake and Makeshift) killed Cliffjumper, almost found coordinates of autobots base(makeshift situacion) lived on his own without his T-cog, was ready to operate on himself (forgot what episode was that, I think one with red energon), took Omega keys from autobots (he is only bot that made Optimus lose his temper and scream) found autobots base coordinates, really resourceful ( he is using everything that can be used, Makeshift is best example) and my favorite thing about him is he is pretty durable (He can handle Megatron's beatings, serious injuries and more).

So overall when we list what he has done we can see why Megatron wanted him as his second in command. Not to mention his actual military experience as a seeker before the war. He is a character worth respecting, some people often says his plans fail but it's usually because of others (if vihecon didn't get closer to Wheeljack he wouldn't free himself and makeshift would be successful,he would even kill Optimus if Megatron didn't intervined and if Skyquake listened to him he would also be able to fight Optimus and Bumblebee). I think he gets unfair treatment from fandom because of this and if you actually start peeling layers of his character you would see his real worth. Just wanted to say this because I really love this character and he is my favorite transformer.

@emperor-kumquat @cosmics-beings

What are your opinion on Transformers Prime Starscream?

(please be respectful because I want a normal debate not an argument)

[lets-try-some-writing]

Can doing little discussion about tf prime ratchet that not knowing at all about human medicine?

I meant from ratchet situation even he and other stuck on earth he not having humans around so he feel O need learning human medicine at all, but when Jack, raf and Miko came to base, he still not learning about human medicine. Sure he probably thinking that the kids will be fine because they still in base but of course the kids again getting involved in battle , again he not learning human medicine for childrens even after they getting involved in battle, sure they are fine but sometimes they are not so lucky.

And well raf is the victim of dark energon, even ratchet hopeless to help raf again it was a luck he can help raf.

I know ratchet annoyed by humans and frustrated with war and all but really I think it's very reckless and irresponsible that ratchet not starting learning human medicine when he have human childrens around.

So what do you think about this tf prime ratchet behavior?

Honestly, I may be fought for this assessment, but I think Ratchet's lack of knowledge on human medicine is to be expected.

Think about it this way. You get a pet mouse, and to take care of it, you learn what it needs to survive. Food, water, shelter, and sufficient enrichment. The average person doesn't end up learning much more about his or her pet because they don't need to. The pet in question, generally speaking, especially if kept in a habitat, will be fine 95% of the time. Sure, the pet may have its quirks, resulting in special adjustments to environment and necessities. But overall, all needs to own a pet is a basic understanding.

Do you know every possible disease that could befall your dog? Do you know about possible treatments for skin cancer in rodents? How about potential genetic issues in snakes? Ratchet isn't a vet, he's a doctor. And for a majority of the show, let's be real, the kids are like pets. Ratchet can keep them fed, keep them safe, and patch up minor injuries by throwing Band-Aids at them. But up until the dark energon incident, there really wasn't a ton of reason for him to learn more about the children because, again, generally speaking, pets in a solid habitat don't tend to get hurt in weird ways. And even when they do, that's what an actual vet is for.

And guess what? June is a human doctor. She is, essentially, a vet. Ratchet had no real reason to learn more than necessarily. Additionally, there was the issue of time, tension, and his sheer size. For him, learning delicate human medicine would probably be the same as a human trying to conduct life saving surgery on a carpenter ant. It would be nigh on impossible due to size and anatomy differences. Sure, even if he learned HOW it worked, that wouldn't directly translate to skill.

With the war, the team constantly getting injured, and a thousand other things happening, I doubt Ratchet had the time or the patience to learn the intricacies of the class hamster's biology.

Maybe he learned some of the simple stuff and rolled from there and we just never got to see it really showcased. I don't know. But this is my assessment.

[novafire-is-thinking]

“I will NEVER side with a Prime!”

I find it interesting that Skyquake specifically says “I will never side with a Prime.”

He could have said, “I will never side with you,” or, “I will never side with the Autobots.”

But he didn’t.

When Skyquake looks at Optimus, he doesn’t see him as an individual. He doesn’t see the ideals Optimus represents, separate from the title.

All Skyquake sees is a Prime—a symbol of the old ways he swore to destroy.

When Optimus extends his offer to work together towards a better future, Skyquake can’t accept this because he’s locked in his view of the past.

Optimus is running towards a future he wants to see.

Skyquake is running from a past he never wants to see again.

An alliance never would have worked.

[theangrycomet]

TFP's designs reflect the writer's decisions regarding character direction very well.

It's not as though I don't like the designs on their own; on the contrary I actually love the less-action-figure-and-more-extraterrestrial art direction they took with the Transformers.

But a lot of the designs push certain aspects so far to the point where their barely recognizable from the characters they are supposed to be.

Somewhat Coherent Ramblings below on the 3 biggest "victims" with my (admittedly limited) transformers lore knowledge.

is that a stickbug or a snake?

Starscream got a bad back from carrying the entire Decepticon cause on his shoulders while Megatron's snorting up Satan's crotch dust so forgive his poor posture.

Like it's a solid design for a for a sniveling backstabber- being able to look like a pathetic little bug one second to a ruthless killer the next.

And I love how he's rigged and animated- forget Predaking most of the animatign budget went into Starscream's theatrics-

Honestly he's probably the least "problematic" for lack of a better word for me because he can be fixed with giving him a paint job and maybe a helmet- probably styled along the lines of RID!Starscream's helm and he'd be fine.

A bigger part of my problems with his design now that I've ruminated on it is more how he's not allowed to feel like a proper, competent threat on his own after the first half of S1- and in turn, how he's not allowed to be intimidating more often.

the Sleeping Beauty Dress argument

Seriously tho- like she looks good but why did they make her blue specifically? Just make her a dark magenta to go with the muted color scheme of the show if your worried about her standing out to much (she's a $30k sports bike in bumfuck nevada- she's already flunked the "in disguise" part of the class)

I get the "oh the she's only girl she shouldn't be pink" argument but you know what would address that? HAVING MORE FEMALE CHARACTERS.

Getting off track...

Again, Arcee's design on it's own, even with the whole "female transformers must be motorbikes so we have an excuse to make them slender" trend, it's really cool.

It reflects her tough-love approach, and how the war has left her sharp around the edges so she doesn't get hurt again. But she doesn't really feel like an ARCEE design.

Like I've said before, it feels like at times the writers couldn't get permission to get the characters they wanted and decided to write the characters they could get to fit the story they wanted to tell, and that reflects in their designs at times. She takes charge of the team because she's best suited for the job, just ask her.

Arcee even is the one to take out Shockwave and allow her and Cliffjumper's escape- similar to how another blue-femme rescued a similarly named friend from Shockwave's clutches back in G1.

With this design and writing direction, it would have been better suited to another spiky blue femme; Chromia. She even comes with an established red love interest to kill off (sorry Ironhide).

Hell if the writers REALLY wanted they could have even still had her Tailgate Event happen with her favorite sharpshooter (sorry Moonracer).

Arcee girly pop

boombox gone eldritch cyber horror

I love this design so much, but where the HELL is Soundwave supposed to store his minicons??? That's his whole thing! Yes he has Laserbeak- but there should be SOME indication of where his lost Cassettes used to go even if they are dead (which in all likely hood they are but again- SEPERATE post).

It's very interesting to me how stripped down he looks, as though with each cassette he's literally lost a piece of himself.

Give Soundwave his Full-Grown Children Back Damn You.

Rumble and Frenzy would have had a fucking BLAST messing with the Jasper team- humans and bots alike.

Bonus:

I will admit when I found RID Drift's design and how Jetstorm and Slipstream are docked on him, I am curious if Soundwave's had his Cassettes on his arms too.

Because if that is the case Soundwave does have room on his arms for at least two- maybe four on the shoulders.

[witchofthesouls]

https://www.tumblr.com/witchofthesouls/784396488484732928/the-soundwave-technical-data-where-his-courage-is?source=share

Are you willing to elaborate??

Oh, for sure.

Personally, I think that his lower- than-average courage score is tied to his telepathic abilities and how he specifically deals with fear, especially with his history as a gladiator in the Pits.

Short version, TFP Soundwave acts like a mirror to others and his own fears. Fear of death. Fear of the unknown. Fear of pain. Fear of the supernatural.

Megatron may have taken up the epithet of Slagmaker, but Soundwave had deliberately shaped himself to become his shadow.

Unlike Starscream, who retreats, Soundwave will plant himself as he uses fear to drive himself forward. Soundwave cannot afford to freeze, so he fights.

[robby-bobby-tommy]

It's once again a nighttime and I'm once again here with scene/character analysis.

As it's prominent from the last few post I'm a quite Ultra Magnus enjoyer, and I'm very upset at how people see him as heartless nerd. I see him as a person very damaged by the war. So here's some of my thoughts.

Ultra Magnus has a great problems with fitting in, because he forgot how to be in this kind of relationship and it's just depressing. For at least a century he has been in a war that took all his time for friends and especially family. And part of me thinks it is because Ultra Magnus is used to communication with orders. In "Evolution" we can see how he really tries to start a conversation, but all he knows now is orders and missions. And the next problem with him is he doesn't belong. He doesn't know what a family is, Wheeljack sends very clear messages that he is not welcomed to the Wreckers. Magnus felt completely isolated and this inability to make deeper connections than commander-soldier doesn't let him comprehend familial relationships. And I have some proofs.

The most important one is this line.

"The members of team prime are not cogs in a machine."

Why would Optimus use this particular line? It felt very meaningful and even as a non-english speaker, I felt it was very important for Ultra Magnus' character. So I went to Internet for the answer and I found this..

This one line opened a lot abt my boy. UM considers himself and team Prime through this war prism. "You are important,but we know how war is. Everyone can't survive. Sometimes you have to sacrifice something for a better outcome. Magnus doesn't think he's better than the rest of Team Prime, quite contrary, he holds himself by the same standards. I think Ultra Magnus sees himself as this metaphorical cog in a machine. He is important now, but if he isn't important in great scheme of things. This sounds like a very army type of mentality. He's prepared to die for a mission and sees little value in himself apart from weaponry and missions. So when Predaking had him and Wheeljack cornered he accepted it fairly quickly, yet was saddened with a thought of joining the allspark, especially with Wheeljack, whom he is to protect as his subordinate.

After Ultra Magnus wakes up, he's met with a lot of pleasant developments. Now he is fully accepted, Team Prime is by his side, and even Wheeljack drops this very meaningful line "Magnus fought like a wrecker"(=you're accepted in our group). And after finally asking OP about what was a Team Prime, he found out about a new concept, that basically breaks all his perceptions.

Family.

It isn't the army, or the elite guard where you are easily replaceable and aren't important. Now Ultra Magnus is family. And, forgive me for cliché, but you can't replace a family. They all are accepting each other and won't willingy leave someone behind for a brighter future.

I think if Ultra Magnus had more screen time his arc would be about relearning to care/connect in a deeper way and finding your own and others' importance, showcasing hardships of a soldier, trying to become more relaxed and closer to a people he knows and loves.

Or mb I just overanalyze one line¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Also UM and OP have this so sweet bond. Former is, being as socially awkward as he is, still being honest about his feelings and asking smt he doesn't understand. And Optimus completely trusts his lieutenant with the team family and is able to see when the other's uncomfortable/sad. I dunno, they're so brothers/friends. They're very close without having much interactions on screen.)

[smokescreenimusprime]

Hi, it's me again, here to tell you about a random thought I had one day about this lil' bastard boy. Why? Why not lol, I know you want a chance to ramble about your lil' blorbo at any chance you get. 👁️👁️

Well, it's more of a crack "AU" idea I have, which can be simplified as, "TFP Smokescreen meeting either his G1 or IDW counterpart (IDK how different those two are, I haven't gotten myself into those yet and I usually see them being 2 differenct categories).

Like- imagine you, meeting a version of yourself who's younger- like probably WAY younger, so exhibits more childlike behaviours and actions than what you would do. Also he's part of the Elite Guard somehow, is the personal Guard of Alpha Trion, and was once offered to become Prime after Optimus?? Like damn kid, what kinda life have you led.

Also hey isn't this technically Hot Rod's role-

Meanwhile here you are, face to face to a version of you from another universe, who's way older--probably as old as Bulkhead or Arcee--so he's like a more mature version of you. Apparrently he's not a Guard, which is weird but whatever. And he's part of some intelligence unit in the army (I'm not sure if this is canon or fanon)--actually nevermind that, he's part of the army. That means he's fought in the war until it's end. That means he hadn't gone to stasis for most of the war.

As the resident Smokescreen expert, I'm curious on how you think about this little idea. Don't gotta think on how they even managed to meet eachother, just- imagine. :)

A U G H

god how do I absolutely love how much of a tragedy TFP Smokescreen's life is. I admit I don't know as much about his IDW or G1 counterparts beside a few clips and looking over the wiki page, but I still Love him <3

I will admit my brain is RAPIDLY bouncing back and forth between the angst and crack options because just. THERE'S SO MUCH TO DO HERE!!!!!

because on one hand, there's the absolute havoc I know these two will wreck if left unsupervised for any allotment of time. There is going to be a lot of racing around, and gambling, and probably several laws being unintentionally and intentionally broken

but on the other hand, the way these two look at the other as some twisted, warped mirror.

G1/IDW Smokescreen looks at this kid. Sees all of his accomplishments, all of his history, but also sees how lonely he is. He's undoubtedly skilled as a warrior, but he lacks the experienced edge every other veteran of the great war has. He sticks out, shiny in a way that almost seems new. He's accomplished so much in so little time and he doesn't even know where to start. Is this what he could've been like? In another world, in another life, could he have kept this innocence and naivety and joy? But at the same time, he can't help but question how? How has he stayed so unstained by everything they've been through? How has this other version of himself come out so- so clean? Was it a moral failing on his own part, or is he missing something here?

and TFP Smokescreen looks up at this other version. Sees his clever words and friendly smile, how everyone seems to love him. How he has the same stride, the same weight as Bulkhead and Arcee and Bumblebee, the weight of a warrior. A real one, one who's fought in the war. He was there for it, and Smokescreen can't help but wonder how many people he's saved, how much of a difference he made to those around him. He's undoubtedly lost people, but he was able to actually do something about it instead of sleeping the war away. He was there to experience terrible, awful, scarring things, but he experienced them yes? He was able to live a life, no matter how difficult, and he was able to bond and grow because of it. Step in step with the people at his side, carving out a place for himself in the world that nobody else could fill

there's so much to be done. These two are so very similar, but they are also so irrevocably different. Cut from the same cloth, at their core they have so much alike, but it's their experiences and lives that have molded them into who they are now