#they were like parents shouldn't yell because they chose to have a kid but siblings had no say so its fine

[trans-xianxian]

just saw someone say that older siblings are allowed to yell at their younger siblings because they had no say in them being in the family and it's "preparing them to be yelled at in the real world" girl what the fuck are you talking about

[horizon-verizon]

Isn't it like wrong to call Viserys a rapist? He groomed Aemma and Alicent but he didn't rape them in a sense he didn't go like Aegon with Dyana. There are many types of rape of course but like it seems wrong

*EDITED POST* (4/13/24)

Ask comes in response to this reblog/post. This is about the show, yes?

No this isn't like anything with Aegon raping Dyana, taking her surprise and her yelling at him to stop. BUT I'd say that seeing that your wife doesn't want you to touch her means she hasn't given consent. Alicent was very obvious in her lack of desire to have sex with Viserys.

We have no scenes of show!Viserys marrying and living life with Aemma before episode 1, right? So we have to assume that in HotD, he also married Aemma at the ages in the original story/the bks. Age is definitely a matter we can look at here to determine grooming or no grooming, but since this is a world where:

most noble marriages are arranged and those marrying often do not actually get to choose their legal partners

where the marrying AND consummating persons can be under our (American, idk abt other nations) legal age of 18

we need to see who pursued who before the betrothal (not the marriage, the betrothal) AND why they did so? Because there is a difference b/t:

someone trying to preemptively make their future spouse more comfortable with them so the eventual consummation isn't awkward or a "failure" or stressful or something else I add below about the anxiety to perform one's duty

--AND--

them claiming they are doing such only to get the target to fuck them/be more vulnerable to their influence.

There's no strong proof of him wanting a sick sense of control or influence over Aemma before they married or betrothed. There's no proof of Viserys asking or pushing for a marriage with her for the express purpose of fucking with a child, because he wanted to have that type of control over her or any child. And they were arranged to be wed. He was around 16 to Aemma's 11 when they married and they consummated their marriage when she was 13.

Under this context, the 2 years of waiting might have been seen as "too long", as much as it shouldn't have been, but for whoever were willing to marry Aemma off at her 11 yrs of age are probably those who also applied some pressure to said couple to consummate, EVEN IF the couple actually liked each other, too.

Even without some external entity actively or purposefully making that sort of pressure--either maliciously or impatiently, like ordering a consummation versus constantly asking about it--the couple themselves could have both felt anxious to perform their "duties" to & for their parents/authority figures/families. But we simply don't know for sure and it wouldn't be mutually exclusive.

The couple lived & grew up in a world with little concept of a strong "legal" age, or a boundary for girls that was also enforced by laws. A world where doing your duty to your families, to your "God", to the authority figures around, to oaths you take you were often held as higher ethical standards than doing what some of us moderns would think is an ethical duty to "humanity".

Adult!Viserys expressly chose Alicent, though. And with Alicent being very obvious, I don't see how he couldn't have seen Alicent's reluctance or hesitance in all the times they had sex (at least 4 for each child)? From what little we see, they don't seem to be a couple where they (really Viserys) at least watch for each other's cues or signs of desire in bed. AllegedlyLola on TikTok says it best of HotD!Viserys (but much can the same shoudl be said for his book version): he says he loved Aemma, that he will always love her, etc. and pedestalizes Aemma to the degree that Rhaenrya could never be Baelon, her siblings can never be her, and all to never really give us a real picture of who Aemma was so he does not have to divulge how some of his actions have ruined Aemma's life. Helaena not having kids or at least stop having them before Rhaenrya becomes Queen/he dies would have even helped Rhaenyra...smh. He doesn't ever think to not let his daughter Helaena marry at 13 & have TWINS not long after (as Aemma died in part bc she started having children WAY too early after they consummated their marriage); he forces his daughter to marry Laenor to fix a problem he created instead of actually thinking about what would be better for her claim and position--which is not to marry a gay man!, esp when everyone knows he is gay; I mention Alicent already...this is the same guy who marries a 15 year old but gets angry with Daemon for seducing his 19 year old daughter and saying she is just a "girl"...bro...Add on the fact he allowed a faction against his heir and be lead by his second obviously hostile Hand & wife exist in court instead of properly intervening and diminishing Otto and Alicent's influence over Rhaenrya so she wouldn't have to escape to Dragonstone...no self reflection, just constant deflection, ignoring, placating the wrong people, putting his foot down at the wrong moments, not pursuing certain avenues or voids of information like in the Vhagar claim incident AND allowed the same thing that happens to his first wife happen to his next wife and his two daughters...ugh.

Getting back to Alicent, remember, consent is not a one-size-fits-all. You need to constantly ask for it and confirm it.

Keep in mind that this is an HotD Watsonian reading/analysis. The writers chose to make show!Alicent so vulnerable and defenseless to introduce something that modern viewers would easier think of her with their no-under 18s (and in certain age gaps, really under 25s) rule without making them really think about what these people themselves were going through. It's easier to assess a medieval setting or circumstance with the rules of conduct that we follow and know and then apply to them as if they would 100% understand how we think INSTEAD OF us FIRST trying to understand how they would think & react to what they have had to live with or learned so that we may expose how/where the double standards are.

I'm not saying that we should go back to marrying 15 year olds, I'm saying take a breather and assess how these people will think & act and assign the "fault" of such to the world instead of just them. Where it's appropriate. I am also not saying that you shouldn't feel uncomfortable, either. I'm saying do the activity fiction requires of us and see through the characters' eyes to understand them instead of trying to enforce you own views right away and all the time to find the nuance.

Example, this Youtube commentator perfectly describes Alicent's mindset within the lens & contextual vocabulary of what the feudal world asks of its people, acknowledging her victimhood but still holding Alicent accountable/showing/implying how wrong she isr:

[paisholotus]

Chapter 1

January 4th, 1996. New York City

Lana's Pov

My alarm started blaring as I sighed and rolled over, burying my face in the pillow. I'm not a morning person; I don't understand how folks can get up ready to go with smiles on their faces. Don't get me wrong, I'm an optimistic person, but I can't handle mornings.

 

I hit my alarm and sat up on the edge of my bed, staring at the wall. I need to sit on my bed for at least five minutes to collect my thoughts and make sure this shit is real. I finally get up and stretch, making my back snap. I swear, my body shouldn't sound like I've worked all my damn life at the ripe age of 15.

 

I normally have to get up about 7 a.m. for school, which starts at 9. I attend a private school in the Bronx and live in Brooklyn Brownstone. It normally takes about 30 minutes, although it can take longer on bad days.

 

But today, I wasn't going to school because it was my best friend's birthday. My best friend Jack Dawson turned 16 today, so I decided to surprise him and spend the day with him. He lives in Manhattan and attends a Catholic school, which I hate for him. Not because it's a Catholic school, but because it's simply a bad school. The school is packed with perverse teachers and asshole kids.

 

We've been best friends since I was four and Jack was five. He has a sister named Summer, who I am also best friends with. Despite the fact that they don't have as much as I do, I still treat them the same. We tell each other everything, particularly what happens within their home.

 

Their father is really abusive to them; I mean, the guy is a fucking dick to his wife and children. Mama Marry is like a second mother to me; she is very sweet and caring. She and my mother are also best friends. But Harry, that's that fucker's name, hates my family. He despises me every time I visit. So I try to come over when he is not around. 

 

Harry supposedly lost his job and is now completely out of control. I mean, he was always a little mean but never disrespectful to me or my family; now he beats Jack and Summer, and occasionally Mary when she intervenes, which happens all the time.

 

When I'm there, he'll curse at me and tell me, "to take my ass home." He's called me fat before, and my father and him had a fist fight about it. So now he'll just yell, "Go home," since he doesn't want dat ass whooped again.

 

Mary is a registered nurse at the hospital. She practically makes all the money, plus has to come home and cook for her kids and a ain't shit ass husband who would hit her if dinner ain't on time. 

 

The many times I'll sit on the phone with Jack and Summer listening to them cry or yell, shit anything they feel like, all because of their sorry ass dad. Harry has even told them that he hates them, and that shit breaks my heart. Because, what parent says that to their kids? I honestly think Mary is scared to put him out because, even though she's making the money, his name is on everything. So he has the right to that apartment, so if they choose to leave Mary wouldn't have anywhere to go. 

 

I stepped out of the shower and changed into my clothes, thinking about what I should do with my hair. I want to get braids soon because I'm tired of doing my hair every fucking morning. Every time I remove this bonnet, the back of my head looks like a flat ass pancake. Having thick, curly hair is both a blessing and a curse.

 

I chose to go half up, half down, slicking my edges and adding a few curly strands beside my head to frame my face. I know my family is already downstairs. Not gon hold you; I'm always the one who takes the longest to leave the house. But, hey, that's not my fault. Because who finna leave the house, looking like nobody cares about me? Shiid, try someone else. 

 

I have two older siblings and a baby sister. My older brother Trey, then my older sister Ciara, and finally my baby sister Stella. They were all eating at the table, and I went around it, kissing Stella's head while looking at the food they had saved me.

 

"Dang, big back community, y'all gave me the crumbs." I said, fixing my plate and laughing. "Then, give me your plate, since yo little ass wanna complain." My mother said, playfully, attempting to take my plate.

 

"Right, because who are you calling big?" My father asked, causing everyone to stop. "You big nigga that's who." Ciara said, making us bust out laughing. He poked his finger at her, trying not to laugh, and said, "Aye, watch your damn mouth!"

 

"Lana, are you going to see your little boyfriend?" Trey asked, making me glare at him. "Sir, how many times do I have to tell you that he is not my man? Okay? We are just friends, best friends." He stuck his hands up, backing off, and went back to eat his food. 

 

"Lay, how long are you going to deny your feelings for that boy? It's not like he'll reject you. You know that boy likes you; y'all have been up each other's noses since y'all were kids." My mama said, putting her plate in the sink.

 

"Ma, I'm not trying to ruin the relationship we already have. I mean, what if he doesn't see me like that, and I tell him I have feelings, and then it'll become weird? Jack trusts me as a friend, and I'd rather value that than mess up something great." I said quietly, looking down at my plate. 

 

She nodded her head and crossed her arms, smiling at me. "I respect that. But you honestly never know until you try. And I have a very strong feeling that he feels the same." She said, kissing my head. "Ight, y'all, I gotta go to work, behave at school, and love you all." She says, kissing my dad and blowing us kisses. 

 

As my dad finished his food and set his plate in the sink, "Okay, Lay, I'm going to head out too. I have to take Ella to daycare, I would take you to Jack's, but I don't want to be late." He picked up Stella and got her ready so they could go.

 

My father is a doctor who works at the downtown hospital. My mother runs Flavor Magazine, her own magazine publishing company, as an editor and publisher. My aunt runs the other one in Chicago. "It's okay, he's not that far anyway." I stepped away from the kitchen table and placed my dish in the sink. Ciara and Trey have already left, so, I'm going to leave the house now. I grabbed Jack's presents off the sofa, walking out the house.