#topic sansa stark stans

[fromtheseventhhell]

I'm not sure how to get it into people's heads that Arya is a female character. She's not a boy, not nonbinary, trans, agender, or genderless. I don't intend this in a way to be negative or wanky, but her girlhood is imbedded within her character. The problem isn't that Arya stans are missing the point by overemphasizing her femininity and wanting her to be a barefoot tradwife baby making machine, but that we're stating it exists when the majority of fandom and the show itself have gone out of the way to minimize the relevancy of her gender. I'm fully convinced there are a lot of people who think Arya would be the exact same character had GRRM created her as a male character named Arry instead, perhaps they'd do a better job at acknowledging her importance.

What's most ironic to me is how these same fans will gush and coo over the sisters being more alike than we think, but only if it involves giving Arya's characteristics to Sansa. Well acktually, Sansa likes to ride horses just as much as Arya does! They're so alike uwu! But dare acknowledge that Arya has traits and aspects commonly associated to Sansa then not only does that get accusations of wanting Arya to become Sansa, but that it's solely about showing Sansa up and wanting her to grovel in Arya's shadow and superiority 🙄 Hypocrisy and projection showing itself.

Somewhat of an aside, but I recently saw a post on reddit complaining about the fact that all four of Daemon's children survived the Dance specifically focused on the fact that both Rhaena and Baela lived. According to the OP, one of them should've died and their post-war roles in the story should've been given to only one of them. Which at its core is really the main conflict between Sansa and Arya stans, no matter how much the Stansas want to cover their ears and play dumb. It's not about Arya stans projecting their sibling squabbles onto the two of them but simply the fact that it's not possible for two characters to fulfill the same role in the story, specifically when it involves two female characters. The existence of two Stark sisters is an inconvenience for the people who want the story to revolve around Sansa.

I have to believe there's some bubbles that they don't want to admit will burst if TWOW will ever be released and that's why they cling to the idea that Arya stans are the delusional ones. They have to believe that the parts of Sansa's seasons 5-8 storyline they like came from GRRM instead of D&D or else their Jonsa and QITN fantasies will fall apart. I have no idea how someone can watch the scene where Sansa tells Arya she couldn't survive what she had while Arya can only sputter out that she was training and believe 1) it makes sense for their book characters and 2) D&D didn't blatantly favor Sansa and Sophie over Arya and Maisie.

This ask came literally seconds after I drafted a post talking about this exact topic and it's so wild to me that we were both up thinking about Arya + her girlhood and wanting to discuss it 🥹

As for this ask, you really hit the nail on the head. Arya's gender is an essential aspect of her journey but fandom ignores that because they've decided that there's only one "right" way to exist as a female character. Arya's self-esteem issues stem from her being a non-conforming Lady in a misogynistic society, she has to disguise herself as a boy in part because of the threat of sexual violence, in Harrenhal she is assigned gender-specific tasks/labor, political matches are made without her knowledge/consent, she is threatened with sexual violence multiple times, and even her role within the FM is influenced by her gender. Her being non-conforming doesn't mean she's the complete antithesis of everything feminine. The obsession with propping up Sansa has ruined people's ability to perceive complex female characters, ironically including Sansa herself. They genuinely would've respected Arya more if she had died passively rather than fight for her life and you can't tell me that isn't misogyny.

That Reddit post is a great example of how people genuinely can't (or refuse to) comprehend the idea of two female characters occupying the same space. Cause you're right, that is the root of the issue. I think the only reason they bother with the fake "Stark sisters uwu" crap is because they've backed themselves into a faux-feminist corner and they don't want to look hypocritical for disliking Arya. So instead, they pretend to care all while rewriting her to serve as Sansa's prop. This is also why so many Queen!Sansa truthers are also anti-Dany + think that Sansa becoming Queen depends on Dany's downfall. They desperately cling to the show as canon, when D&D have openly admitted they changed the story because they favored Sansa/Sophie. They're fine with how show!Arya is written because to them, that's exactly how she should be; a subservient lapdog for Sansa. TWOW is definitely going to ruin that illusion, and one of the reasons I'm optimistic about it being released is getting to see fandom's reaction.

[katy-89]

Discussing Rhaegar Targaryen in this fandom is boring. More than discussing Dany or Sansa.

Rhaegar Targaryen is literally the devil.

Reading this fandom discussion you would think Rhaegar is on par with Crastor or Ramsey. Sometimes the takes about him are literally at odds with the text of the book, subtext, and the main themes explored. I don't know why people are so hypercritical of this character, we have virtually no reliable information on his motivation or actions. I guess it's easier to blame one person for all fallout of the war than to accept it's caused by a Veriety of factors. I really think we could use a moratorium on "Rhaegar Targaryen kicked my dog" posts.

Character are supposed to fuck up and create conflict, their actions are a way for the author to explore a theme. Every single character in this book makes mistakes that have horrible unintended results.

Reducing what Rhaegar and Lyanna means for the narrative, and Jon's themes of love vs duty in particular, to just "Rhaegar Bad" is just a bad faith way of engaging with the story. It's also possibly a less interesting way of reading it but for some people outrage is fun so that's clearly up for debate.

I truly don't give a fuck if "Rhaegar fucked up", but I'm incredibly tired of seeing the character vilified just to have people shouting the same talking points over and over with out any deeper reading of the situation or speculation about alternatives. Until WOW comes out to add new information to the pile, I just think this topic is boring and doesn't justify the 50 bashing posts per week we get.

And I'm incredibly tired of seeing the age stuff being an issue ONLY when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Y'all doesn't care about age gaps, you just have an agenda. Or you would care about Oberyn, Cersei, Renly, Robert etc fucking teenagers. You don't.

Also....Shout out to the Bobby B Stans who refered to Lyanna as Roberts property and Rhaegar is wrong for stealing her. Thank you for strengthening my conviction that Lyanna Stark could have personally burned westeros to the ground and been justified. I'd support her.

[jackoshadows]

Hi! I'm new to the asoiaf fandom (ik too late .. but better late than never right??) . So I'm a Tumblr girly and before even knowing about all the plot points, I knew too well about the fandom discourse - particularly sansa, Arya, Daenerys and Jon. And i wanna say why I get so many people are mad at hardcore sansa fans. Like only today I found out about the original leaked letter of grrm in 1991 and was fascinated about it, so I was reading everything related to it and finally ended up reading a discussion on asoiaf.westeros.org

Someone posted a long post about how grrm's original plot points have remained more or less the same and I was nodding along and i kid you not - the very next post was about how Arya will be a child at the end of series so many plot of hers will be Sansa's now given that she'll be a woman by westeros' standards. And I was like "weird but at least this person was polite and stayed within the topic of discussion" . Then not even TWO posts after that , there's a long post about how sansa and Jon are meant to be together (like quotes from books and their supposed interpretation - spoiler alert: totally wrong btw). Like the first quote is "poor Jon, he gets jealous because he's a bastard" and the poster is like " Poor Jon, he is jealous because he's a bastard and won't be marrying blushing redheads to make them queen of all the realm... but what if he isn't a bastard and is the crown prince?" (This is cp btw) . Like you just called your fav character a gold digger.

Jon is a bastard now so he will not be making anyone queen .. BUT when he is the prince? Lets make a PowerPoint of stupid connections that is clearly meant to be taken seriously as a proof of the never-will-happen-relationship. I may be new to this fandom but I've been in enough fandoms to know self insert ships. The Hunger Games for example, I've read crackpot theories of how Katniss should forgive Gale for playing a part in the plan that ended up killing Prim because she has killed people in the games too. For whatever reason they have the hots for Gale so they want Katniss to end up with him so they run loops trying to make that happen.

Like , I wanna read about things that matter - I was trying to read interpretations of the blocked paragraph. I want to read an absurd theory of how Tyrion will be the king at the end . I don't wanna see a ridiculously long post of a crackship in a place where nobody asked for it !! Why do they have this behaviour of promoting their ship everywhere? I mean literally everywhere ??

Like literally the entire basis for Jonsa is taking away everything GRRM has written for Arya - in terms of political arcs, importance in the North/House Stark/Winterfell, relationships with her siblings, with her parents etc. - and giving to Sansa because she's beautiful and fits into the tradfem standards of femininity. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's why anytime there is a discussion of Jonrya or Arya becoming Lady of Winterfell or a leader of the North, it starts pivoting to Sansa because they can only see her as leading the North because she's the right kind of girl - this in a region where Robb got his support after Greywind chewed off the GreatJon's fingers! The dissonance is real.

Also them using the leaked OG outline for Jonsa is so frigging hilarious and ridiculous. Worms for brains.

So yeah, it is annoying and frustrating but unfortunately that's fandom sexism for you. The ASoIAF/GOT fandom is incredibly sexist and bizarrely most of this nonsense is from women stanning a sexist character while holding her up as some kind of feminist icon and bullying other fans if they critique that character's sexism and bullying.

[rise-my-angel]

And I'll admit that the previous ask was about something specific that I saw from someone specific - But the issue I was ranting about is nowhere near exclusive to this one case.

I have seen attitudes like this from almost all Jonsa bloggers, and even though my consistent reaction was "Alright, at this point you guys are starting to get into headcanon territory with how disproportionate your readings of the text are." I never really said anything about it as those blogs were my only access to asoiaf meta written by non-Targ fans back then.

The problem isn't even that these people have such interpretations, they can make House Stark as 'savage' as they want in their headcanons, I don't give a fuck. But people like this have decently big platforms to showcase their readings on, which influences a non-small group people to immediately switch to the same view as the blogger - Without any hint or crumb of acknowledgement that these interpretations are bordering headcanon - since anyone who knows enough Big Words to write a meta piece is seen and treated as some kind of thought leader in this fandom. (And depending on the niche you're from, you might get branded as politically incorrect for... daring to disagree with their readings.)

You also hit the nail on the head of something that bothers me, the way they word things. I've noticed that too, that they write in a way that is very intellectually structured. Sometimes I've genuinely struggled to follow because it feels like I'm reading something from a textbook. Long, big worded, high vocabulary posts that make it hard to argue against because the way they write their arugments is so complicated to disect sometimes. Which is intentional.

It's almost like a debate strategy. You speak so much and on so many topics that the other side cannot possibly respond to all of it reasonably, and thus you look smarter and right by proxy. A lot of those posts do that, and I have never really enjoyed that style of analysis. Especially when you look at their blogs as a whole and you realize they are coming from a very biased perspective, normally when it's either a targ/dany/jonerys stan, or a Jonsa. It feels like you're just trying to speak to someone who is looking to dismiss you before you can even say you disagree.

I don't need something to be canon to accept people ship it, but a lot of Jonsa's get very defensive when you point out the lack of genuine evidence for any kind of possibility of a ship. They do not like being told there is no proof for their ship, so they go on long, overly complicated meta analysis to back up points that they don't have.

Very typically these people do not care about Jon as a character, the only care about him as a vehicle to expand Sansa's story (i.e a lot of Jons scenes are apparently full of Sansa subtext but none of Sansa's scenes have anything to do with Jon what so ever because she is her own character whose life doesnt revolve around him). They dislike that her story is not heading towards any kind of leadership, so they interpret everything as bad faith as possible to put forth the idea that Jon is wrong for leadership because he represents the part of the North that needs to change.

I know some people that ship it that are mostly normal, but so much of that shipping base is full of people who are just using Jon and the North as props for making Sansa's story go in the direction they want, rather then the direction her story is actually headed.

Which makes me thing there is a degree of Jonsa shipping that is doing a lot of self inserting rather then interacting with the Sansa that actually exists.

[asoiaf-source]

Fighting Hate with more Hate. That always works, right?

“Sansa’s fans are so defensive of her because of the rest of the fandom demonize her and hate her for no reason.” - helenakey

So then the answer is to demonize the other women characters for no reason?

Of course there are going to be ‘fans’ that hate on a character for no reason, I’ve seen people post unnecessary and unreasonable hate on many of the characters, not just Sansa, and they can be as annoying, but they are not representative of the entire fandom. Not ALL fans are hating on her, and some are just looking at the character critically. I’m new to the tumblr metas (avoided for a long time due to the toxic reputation), but i’ve been on ASOIAF forums for a long time and there are plenty of Sansa supporters, even if she is still quite a polarizing character due to how people wish to interpret her... but Sansa stans on tumblr take it to the next level!

I’ve never seen this side of her fans before, or at least so much nearly every day, and subsequently the many rebuttals! And how often they like throwing other characters under the bus, often for hypocritical reasons. Like the OP yendany said, they ignore the trauma in other characters or dismiss it as not as bad, when it is often much, much worse. They criticize and attack other female characters to prop up Sansa ‘better’ survival skills, or attribute qualities to her she doesn’t possess (I see this a lot in fanfiction, before I realized the self-insert aspect), or use her age as excuse when all the main characters are young or even younger than her. The line porcelain to ivory to steel... can really apply to any character that has to grow up and face the harsh realities of the world... so it is really hypocritical to think Sansa is special in some way for overcoming her situation, all the characters are going through the same struggle, and many have it much worse. That is where I think so much of the anti-sansa stans come from, the hypocrisy and the tearing down of other just as deserving of sympathy/empathy characters, especially other women characters. It is a weird juxtaposition, that anyone with a reasonable sense of objectivity can pick up on and often do.

I mostly see it done against Arya and Dany, the two more prominent female characters in the books (thus the 2 who draw more focus than #3 Sansa?). The two female characters GRRM is telling a lot of his story through and spending a large amount of the text (right from book 1) to develop their growth as characters and showcase their strengths, intelligence, determination, fortitude, agency, cleverness, resilience and so much more. It’s as if because the other women are not ‘pure’ or see themselves that way and stronger in personality and character that somehow their suffering doesn’t affect them as much because they are tougher and didn’t let anything that happened to them stop them from growing stronger. They aren’t dwelling in victim-hood too long before they pick themselves back up and move forward.

And yet, they cheer when Sansa starts to grow stronger... Sansa’s growth has been much slower, we are moving into book 6 and she is just starting to gain a bit of agency, but she is still heavily under the tutelage of Baelish. We will see how far she gains in the next book and if she will break with Baelish by the end of it and be a fully independent player. But her development isn’t nearly on the same scale as Daenerys and Arya. That isn’t to imply that she isn’t going to be important, but it is clear from the text that she is not one of the main focuses for GRRM, or he would have developed her faster and given her more to do. We will see how much ground he can cover in 1-2 books, but there is only so much he will be able to accomplish and have it be believable, especially with so many POVs and story lines that he needs to develop.

I actually think their attempts to (over) defend her backfire, as so many feel the need to point out the falsehoods and misinterpretations, especially when they are wildly mean-spirited and completely refutable by the text. As I traverse through the ASOIAF metas I often come across fans metas writing rebuttals to other posts, to ‘correct’ their conclusion or ‘facts’. I’ve read so many of these they are starting to get repetitive, I also read some of the Sansa-stan posts they are rebutting and, yeah I can see why so many get upset. If you don’t like it when others tears down or dismisses Sansa, why do you think fans of the other characters wouldn’t comment when you go after their favs, especially so mean-spiritedly.

I don’t think I ever felt so much negativity towards the Sansa character until I had to read so many skewed and biased metas turning her into some kind of saintly YA Disney princess type that is just too good for this cruel world. That kind of character has no place in a series like this. You can’t help but want to point out the wild inaccuracies, and it makes me feel a negativity towards a character I didn’t feel negative to before. And I don’t want to feel negative towards her, she is a Stark and I root for the Starks, especially the kids. I often defended her against those who (I feel) just don’t understand what it is like to be a preteen girl, I relate to a lot of Sansa’s weaknesses and how she feels, especially at that age, and that is her appeal (to me) - the fact that she starts off very weak.

Sansa is weak both physically and mentally, she cares too much about rank, privilege, and what others think about her, her desire to conform, for everything to be proper, and properly in their place. She has the luxury to think that way because she is a rich, pretty, noble girl who ranks at the top of society, of course she sees life as great and never questions it... she is already at the top and winning from birth. This is why (I think) she is so hard on Arya, she messes with her idea of what is proper/good/right.  Arya isn’t pretty and doesn’t try to be, she acts more boy than girl, she plays with dirty, smelly, poor children, etc... Those are all an embarrassment to Sansa and go against what a proper lady of her rank should do and care about. Once they head south, all the things Arya gets away with at home will stand out even more and reflect badly on Sansa, by association. So, she criticizes and distances herself even more, because she wants to join the elite glamorous world of the nobility.

The other girls don’t have those weaknesses, that is why they are seen as better able to cope than Sansa does.  They grow quicker and stronger faster because they are not as inhibited by what the ‘rules’ are. This isn’t a criticism of Sansa, this is an observation and I think it is the entire point of including a character like her in the story. GRRM could have followed the original outline for her, but he wanted to ‘reform/rescue’ her character and give her (I hope) a better path back to her family and happiness. I think it is GRRMs way to show how young girls should NOT romanticize noble life or being pretty will lead to a ‘perfect’ life. That thinking of yourself as a lady or being a princess/queen isn’t what is important. That marring a ‘title’ (lord/prince) or a handsome face is not enough to lead to happiness. It is what you do with your life, and how you care about others and who cares about you - that is what is important. But some Sansa fans seem to miss that and want her to have all those thing and more... they want it both ways, her to learn all those things, and yet still get all those things... a beautiful princess life clear of the harsh actions to gain it and also a happy family married to the best, more heroic and honorable man - a fairy tale ending. And that is not ASOIAF.

They are reducing her entire arc to becoming a nicer, more pure, and pretty, prize for a man to love, marry and make their queen. If so, GRRM will botch the ending of his series and all the points he *seems* to be making thus far.

A major theme (to me) in Sansa arc is her lack of value in her home and family. Sansa (to me) is like the small town girl who can’t wait to leave her family / Winterfell behind and to move to the big glamorous city (King’s Landing) and become royalty. But once she got there wasn’t able to accumulate with its more complicated and corrupt realities of the court. Even setting the cruelty of Joffrey aside (he is an aberration, not a normal example), how everyone else ostracizes or ignores her (except the hound, and to some extent Tyrion - although he isn’t all that great). The way the Tyrells treat her before and after her wedding is much more representative of how typical court life and nobility behaves normally (I think). Sansa never saw the true value of being surrounded by people who love and care about YOU and whom you can trust and rely upon - until that is all taken from her. She slowly sees how the people at court are corrupt and deceitful under all the beauty and glamor she so aspired to only after being fooled more than once, and (to me) no longer wants any part of it, but is forced to play, thanks to Baelish.

This is a point I find many of her fan miss, they think Sansa is going to learn to play the game, destroy everyone with her cunning and beauty and rise to the top to be queen or a ruler - a path which will ultimately lead to down a very dark and cynical path... but somehow they think Sansa will be different, and her rise will be more like a Disney princess story, one where she will gain power without having to sink low to do it. That is NOT the kind of book GRRM is writing.

”I’ll make them love me.” - another childish statement, you can’t make people love you, you earn love and respect. And Sansa hasn’t done that once the entire series, she hasn’t made a single friend. No one is looking to follow or fight for/beside Sansa, save Baelish, and we all know that plan is doomed to fail, as he isn’t to be trusted or relied upon and wants to use her. I would even question her friendship with Jeyne Poole as it is clear she never saw them as equals, and that is not real friendship... more like Jeyne was a companion/lady-in-waiting type.

The few people who care about her (other than family) either are working on behalf of an oath to Catelyn, or have their own ambitions/sexual desires/pity for her and not necessarily care about her for herself because she was a good and loyal friend to them. Maybe this will change in the next book, but with Baelish keeping close tabs and guiding her, who knows how well she will be able to make any genuine relationships with others given all the secrets she has to keep.

Her only realistic path to leadership is through marriage and that is hardly giving her agency as a heroic rise to a leader of a men... more like sleeping her way to the top.  Not something I want for Sansa, and I hope her ‘marriage’ to Tyrion works as plot armor against her being used like that.

Besides GRRM has kinda stressed that ‘real’ leadership comes from understanding people, observation, and experience, and not just from strategics marriage (Margaery, Cersei) or inheritance (Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei - she could prove the point all on her own :). Every leader in the book so far has to make compromises, make hard decisions and even make harsh, sometimes very bad decisions and live with those consequences. None of the characters in the series have escaped this as much as Sansa has, since so much of her story thus far is about her lack of agency, and being a pawn used by others (and to some extent she still is with Baelish). For her to make it to the end w/o doing anything and staying ‘pure’ and that is how she ends up on top, by essentially not taking many large personal risks, allowing others to do all the heavy lifting morally, mentally and physically. If winning means standing on the sidelines watching everyone else do the WORK, and just giving suggestive nudges here and there to have things turn out in your favor so you can just coast to the top (that is the Baelish way)... well, that is kinda the worst message GRRM could leave us with.

If GRRM wants Sansa to become a leader, she will have to get her hands dirty too, she will have to take great personal risks to gain power and accept the consequences good or bad that result, learn from them and move forward... otherwise it defeats one of the main points of his series and turns her into a simplistic cliche version of a character.  Every character with a POV has gone through this, it is one of the major themes in ASOIAF, a more realistic, less easy way of looking at how you obtain power and learn by experience and a series of victories and defeats. Thus far Sansa has also avoided examining her actions and how they have affected her, she either never thinks about them, changes the facts to suit her better, or blames others without seeing the part she also played... I’m not blaming her, but her action did contribute to the situation... she never seems to realize this and I feel it is going to eventually hit her hard, she has to mature and grow out of her ‘unreliable narrator’ eventually, and it must lead to something for GRRM to make it such a large part of her narrative of coping with her trauma. I assume he wrote her this way for a reason and is going to do something with it.

I’m looking forward to a darker more realistic Sansa who has more agency and understanding, and I expect her to make her own mistakes and moral compromises (well she already has, but there was some coercion - but it also means she is capable of doing so) just like all the other POVs have had to do. I also look forward to her finally owning up to her past actions and how they also contributed to where she is now. If she can’t take some personal responsibility she will never grow. That is a part of having agency, understanding how your decisions and actions affect you and others.

I wish all the back and forth would stop, cause I’m tired of seeing it in my feeds, but I guess it has been going on for years - the same arguments/rebuttals - so I guess it will continue, even after we get the next book... I think only the completion of the entire series will end some of these arguments, but who knows - after some of the meta I’ve read, there will probably be even more, lol.

Well, I wanted to comment and give my two cents, but it ended up being longer and I guess for me all this is still new and offsetting.  I guess I had more to say that I thought, even though I edited A LOT out because I wanted to keep it focused. I’ve just started to dip my toes into this crazy platform, so I’m sure this is just the tip of the toxic metas that I heard can be found here... can’t wait to read the anti-dany metas... that is sure to fill me with a sad rage as well, i know the show did her no favors, sigh....

[stardyng]

I don't understand what's wrong with Sansa not blindly trusting Jon's judgment. She's one of his advisors and the Lady Of Winterfell, her role isn't to agree with everything he does, but to vouch for what she thinks is best for her people and to lead him to the right path. Cersei had a bunch of ''yes mans'' in AFFC and look how that turned out. She literally put King's Landing in a troubling area. If Sansa blindly followed Jon, they wouldn't have even started a rebellion, and if they did, they wouldn't have won the Battle of the Bastards.

[starksinthenorth]

Hoster’s gradchildren won’t have equal claims through him because male-preference primogeniture also priorities gender and birth order. Boys before girls, and elder siblings over younger, children of the elder child before uncles/aunts.

For Riverrun the succession at the start of the series would be: Edmure > Cat >Robb >Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya > Lysa > Robert Arryn > Brynden.

If you take out ruling lords and people who are dead or believed dead, the current succession at the end of FeastDance is: unborn baby Tully > Sansa > Brynden.

BUT once people appear on the board again, it’s something like: unborn baby Tully > Rickon > Sansa > Arya > Brynden.

Rickon is heir to the north until/unless Bran has kids and Sansa has the whole “married to one possible claimant for Lord of Casterly Rock and betrothed to the heir of the Vale” dilemma and the throne likely won’t want her claiming two of the greatest castles in the realm.

So from a legal perspective Arya would be the best one to try and push her claim to Harrenhal, if she ever wanted to leave Winterfell.

Are the self proclaimed ASOIAF "experts" even aware Arya was at Harrenhal? That Arya was able to get the Northern prisoners free and rebel against the Lannisters? That her actions were very political in nature? That both Arya AND Robb spent a lot of time in the RL? That Robb died there?

It doesn't seem like they do. I see people claiming no Stark has a stronger connection to the RL and Harenhal as S*nsa despite her hardly spending any time there. And the fact that the connection they claim is stronger then anyone else's, being a child of a Tully and the granddaughter of the Lord Paramount, can be claimed by ALL of Catelyn Stark's children.

Which reminds me- I've seen so many comments that S*nsa has the strongest claim to this title or this land or this castle because she's the daughter/ niece/ cousin of so and so. A while back I was told that S*nsa had to get WF because she was a Stark and Ned and Cat's child and no one else in the books could claim that. I figure its a good time to remind people how siblings work. Sansa has the same parents that Robb, Arya, Brandon, and Rickon have. That means they also share the same grandparents, aunts, uncle, cousins, etc. So if you're claiming that S*nsa has the best claim to RR because she's Hoster's grandchild, all of his other grandchildren have an equal claim because he is their grandfather too.

[saintshigaraki]

☕ + sansa stark I beg

SANSA STARK!!! THE NORTHERN GIRL!!! WINTERFELL'S DAUGHTER!!!!

she is soooo important to me mao. probably THE fictional character of all time for me right alongside katara and azula. her vale plot is so important to me. so overhated lmao but really what were we expecting. it amazes me that people genuinely believe that sansa's story will end anywhere but the north. she's getting back to winterfell where either yes, i do believe there's a chance she'll end up queen in the north, or in some place of major political power after she takes out littlefinger (which she will! she will slay the giant!) idk it just annoys me so much when certain stans discredit her bc she's not part of the '''''key five''''' which was in the DRAFT of asoiaf. the same draft that involved a love triangle between arya jon and tyrion and the same draft where sansa is dead before the end of the first book. so idk why ppl keep acting as though it is in any way relevant to sansa's importance to the story.

anyway <3 sansa my most beloved. the future slayer of savage giants and the blood of winterfell <3

send me a ☕ and a topic and i'll give you my opinion <3

[chispas-and-broken-bindings]

What Dany stans do with Dany , you do the same thing with Jon and Sansa .

Okay, nonny...I’ll admit it. I have a bad memory, so by all means pass on receipts, but in the mean time let me try and find all the times I've written about how Jon or Sansa's feelings and intentions excuse their actions (since I'm assuming you are referring to this post here).

Let's start with Sansa. 

Outside of fan-fiction, which is totally separate than canon analysis, I’ve written about Sansa Stark in the context of the books exactly once. 

While she is great and all, she’s not all that exciting for me to analyze...her potential is there, and I think her chapters are sad and lovely to read, but we’re five books in and she’s yet to have much of any power, and power is largely what I’ve been interested in examining when I have the urge to write. That being said, there is a meta or two hanging out there, written by others, about what Sansa does with the little agency she does have, and I found them to be interesting reads. Perhaps a kind soul will drop some links. 

But I digress. This is about me...and what I do with Jon and Sansa, right? 

Even in my tiny nothing post about Sansa, did I use her feelings to justify her many crimes? (Since, again, I’m assuming that is what I’m being accused of. Your ask was a bit vague, nonny. Please work on your specificity next time.) 

Well, what are her feelings? Oh yeah. She’s very upset about being forcibly married to Tyrion after spending months as a prisoner of war. What a baby. 

What are her actions? Minimizing Garlan and Leonette’s concern for her well-being by putting on a brave face and telling them she is well. Jerk.

What was my conclusion? Let me just quote myself: 

I’m sorry, but who reads passages like this and thinks, “ugh, Sansa…what a conniving villain”. I re-read the chapter where Sansa is married to Tyrion and the whole thing makes me want to cry. Also, all the kudos to Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, Leonette for making an effort to comfort a traumatized child.

I don’t know, nonny.

 If you want to use that post to write an essay about how Sansa’s courtesy is actually a cover for her great crimes of poisoning Sweetrobin and killing Mycah...by all means go for it. 

Now on to my boy, Jon. Let the evidence of favoritism commence!

I’ve definitely written more about our sad bastard in the North than I’ve written about Sansa, so I’m sure we’ll find some fruitful returns on your accusation here. 

How has one currently dead Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch fared beneath my pen? 

Well, there is the post that I cannot find because Tumblr is a black hole and I’m bad at tagging, where, if I remember correctly, I said I’d never forgive Jon Snow for what he did to Gilly and her baby.

But, without evidence, I suppose that isn’t admissable in a court of fandom discourse, is it? 

All is not lost dear nonny. Do not fear. I apparently can’t shut up about the topic. 

First, I have this ask where I must totally defend Jon because he’s obviously my fave, right? Wrong. I accuse him of hubris and abuse of power. 

Regardless of his noble intentions with the baby swap, Jon displays a lot of hubris in thinking that he can control what happens to either child afterwards, that the greatest danger is Mel’s zealotry, and that his intentions make his actions excusable. I think he is wrong on all three counts.

He abuses his power over Gilly and meddles in a situation he has no authority over because he knows he has no such power over Stannis or Mel.

Hm.

I also used this ask, about a totally different subject, to wax on about the same topic, because as I said, I can’t shut up about it (or Daario). Surely, in this one, I talk about how flawless and awesome Jon is, right? 

Oh yeah, I call him an utter ass, a potato, a manipulative little shithead, and a coward. 

But please, go on about how I give Jon a free pass. 

I’m bored now, nonny, but if you want to make this interesting with an actual rebuttal essay, where you point out all the times I’ve forgiven Jon for his misdeeds because of his lonely bastard vibes and plain-at-best looks, I’ve made the endeavor easier for you by linking out to my other mentions of Jon Snow. 

Have at them. 

Jon and Dany foil ask

What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

Qhorin and Jon by the fire

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. I and it doesn’t even mention Daario

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. II - Let’s Build a Fire & Make Speeches!

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. III - Murders & Miracles! Yay!

Thanks, I guess, for giving me an excuse to make a master post linking to my “metas” about Jon and Sansa. If you choose to return, please bring me something more interesting to chew on. I bore easily, but love to play. 

[istumpysk]

omg can you explain me why there is a conversation around about sansa & motherhood?? like i've seen some sansa antis talking about how sansa would be such a bad mother and i've seen as well a sansa stan talking about this topic and OMG 😭 sansa is 13 years old and people are already discussing if she will be or not a good mother. like, she's 13yo she - obviously - will commit mistakes when it's come to child because she - herself - is a child LOL

I totally get it, anon. It's icky, uncomfortable, and you have every right to hate it.

Unfortunately George has backed himself into a corner, and he's committed to executing storylines originally meant for a 19-year-old Sansa.

I presume the majority of us hate the idea of her having a child at 14, but are resigned to the fact that it's likely to happen. She is the future matriarch of House Stark, and there’s a lot of evidence that suggests it won’t be saved for the epilogue. :\

[dreadwulf]

I know a lot of Jaime stans don’t think Bran is particularly relevant to Jaime’s redemption arc since he already paid karmically for it, that Jaime’s redemption is in living a better life, that getting forgiveness or scorn from Bran & the remaining Starks would give too much of a definitive answer to if a person can be redeemed, and Bran’s story is headed in a completely different direction. However, I would feel weird if there isn’t some kind of second meeting or closure between the two since

Jaime pushing Bran was one of the precipitating events of the War of the Five Kings and both of their arcs arguably began with crippling. Maybe I want it because I’m intrigued by symmetry, I love stories of forgiveness, maybe because I feel a lot of Jaime’s redemption must be a failure comes from ppl who are unable to forgive him for Bran (which fair, but don’t pretend the redemption arc isn’t there. Someone said it well on Twitter that there would be a lot less denial over the redemption arc or that Jaime’s doomed to failure if the Valonqar prophecy wasn’t there). What do you think? What would you want to see out of a Bran and Jaime interaction? Am I nuts for wanting this?

I think it would be a pretty definitive capper on whether or not we’re supposed to consider Jaime redeemed if Bran meets him and says he’s forgiven, and for that reason I doubt GRRM will explicitly do it. 

Note here that as far as prognosticating for Jaime according to the fandom you have two choices - either the Valonqar prophecy refers to Jaime and he’s going to go back to King’s Landing and commit murder-suicide, or his weirwood dream comes true and he goes North to fight the Others with Brienne. Due to the timing required for Jaime to kill Cersei before someone else can, these are mutually exclusive. Now, since the weirwood dream pretty clearly puts Jaime and Brienne fighting wights together, and Valonqar prophecy could be referring to someone else entirely, the choice for me is pretty clear. BUT these are pretty literal reads of both bits of foreshadowing and quite possibly wrong. Jaime could for example kill Cersei to save King’s Landing and live afterwards. The weirwood dream could be metaphorical and not a prophecy. Anyway my point here is that these two bits of prophecy map pretty clearly onto Team Redemption Arc versus Team Failed Redemption Arc. The Valonqar prophecy is a pretty convenient plot point for those who don’t want to see Jaime be forgiven and keeps him well away from Bran, who in their view is the only person who can give him forgiveness.

I sort of resist this. I don’t think think a redemption arc requires Bran, and I also don’t think we’re seeing a traditional villian-to-hero redemption arc. Jaime was never a traditional villian, for one thing. He’s somewhere in the middle and always has been. He is someone who has done great AND terrible things, and has the capability to do either in the future. He’s on the precipice which is what makes him fascinating. I think ultimately he will undergo tremendous personal change and will accomplish some important things for humankind in the next War for the Dawn, and I think it will be ultimately up to the reader whether that earns him forgiveness for his earlier sins. For the readers, the story arc is when someone could or should be forgiven. Which means Bran telling us whether or not we should forgive him would be cheating, and I also don’t think Bran will consider it relevant in his new role in the story.

I do think a final scene is called for, but that could work out a lot of ways. If Jaime does die at some point, I would not be at all surprised if he becomes aware that Bran is watching it happen. That’s not an explicit meeting, but it would be a full circle kind of moment. Jaime lying on the ground broken and Bran looking down on him. That’s the sort of thing I’m expecting.

I think what a lot of readers are waiting for is Jaime to show some regret. He’s already suffered the karmic retribution of the loss of his hand, and he directly refers to it as the hand he pushed Bran with. But he didn’t beg anyone for forgiveness or angst about it at length, so they consider his punishment unfinished. The thing is, due to Jaime’s peculiar psychology, it would be out of character for him to beg forgiveness for anything. If you’re paying attention to his chapters you do know he regrets pushing Bran, but he doesn’t spend a lot of time angsting about it because he tends to put those things away and not think about them. What those readers need is an opportunity for someone to confront him with it in a way he cannot avoid, and see him express remorse. 

Brienne already accepts him for all that he is and she won’t be the one to confront him with this, but she might lead him to it. If there is a situation where SHE is being made to suffer for Jaime’s sins, I think that would provide what those readers are waiting for. Because Jaime’s not going to plead on his own behalf, or ask for anything he doesn’t deserve, but Brienne? If Stoneheart or Sansa or some other Stark is passing judgment on Brienne for being associated with him, I think he’d have a lot of remorse for that. I think that would make a lot of his regrets come spilling out, because it’s one thing if he’s being punished but Brienne doesn’t deserve to suffer. In that circumstance and possibly only that one, I could see him pleading with a Stark for forgiveness.

But for that note of ambiguity, I don’t think that scene will happen with Bran.

(Sorry this is all over the place. It’s a big topic! And I didn’t even answer your question - no, I understand why people want Bran and Jaime to actually meet and talk. I’m just not sure it’s going to happen. I think the story will provide the resolution in another way.)

[queenaryastark]

George RR Martin: dragons are weapons of mass destruction, they're symbols of destruction and not of rebuilding, it's why the targaryens lost their power because their rule was built on fear and when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I Yall: i cant read suddenly i dont know

LMAO! I can’t even call that paraphrasing since this jumble of out of context gibberish completely misinterprets GRRM’s words and intent. 

First off, no one said dragons weren’t weapons of mass destruction. Them being powerful weapons is pretty obvious. Them being weapons does not erase the violence and cruelty of characters who do not have them. The mass destruction the Starks and Lannisters have wrought against the Riverlands and Westerlands was done without the aid of dragons. So was the mass destruction the Greyjoys and Boltons wrought on the North. The Tyrells were able to commit mass murder by cutting off food supplies, which led to mass starvation, which was their specific intent. 

Dragons are dangerous. Obviously. So are people, as George R. R. Martin goes out of his way to tell us in every chapter of his work. The man literally depicts Robb, Stannis, Balon, and Joffrey as equally as violent toward the common people and the land of Westeros. He even gives Dany this metaphoric image of the four of them:

“In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.” -- A Clash Of Kings

And that is far from the only time he frames them in an equally negative light given their level of mass destruction.

when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons

You think Dany should read Fire and Blood? I agree. I hope she gets a copy once she arrives to save Westeros from the warlords, opportunistic politicians, and the Others. Though you should probably try to find someone who can read it to you and explain what all the big words mean. If you look in that book, you will see that the Targaryens became extremely popular and loved. They decreased the amount of war and destruction, they streamlined the laws, they established roads, and they removed a couple of the abuses that were the norm. They were far from perfect. But in that imperfection, Dany could learn from them too. 

As for a “small spark” causing a rebellion as soon as they didn’t have dragons... *sighs* If you don’t know about a topic, that’s fine. Not everyone can be an expert on every topic. But you Sansa stans (yes I know you’re a Sansa stan and you probably have that hideous image of ST with her trademark vacant expression and that ugly ferret crown as your icon) should actually fact check yourselves before trying and failing to present yourselves as an authority on anything. The last dragon died in 153 AC. The Targaryens were overthrown in 283 AC. Even before 153 AC, the dragons that lived either weren’t under their control, were pretty young, or were deformed. In other words, they continued to rule Westeros without dragons for a significant amount of time. In that time, not only did they rule, but they were able to bring Dorne into the realm peacefully. 

Even the wars they had were far fewer than the amount of constant wars that happened while the kingdoms were separate. The Blackfyre Rebellions were sparked by Westerosi racism and xenophobia against the Dornish, as well as the greed and opportunism from the Andal/First Men supporters of the Blackfyre claimant. Notice how in those rebellions the people of Westeros supported either the Targaryens or the Targaryen blooded Blackfyres? No matter which side the lords took, they were supporting a Targaryen because they support that family. Like in real life civil wars, they just supported different members of that same royal line. It wasn’t because they feared them. They wanted their rule. They just wanted the rule of a specific claimant over another based on their own values or what they thought they could gain from a change in Targaryen leadership.

Even with the Baratheon rebellions, they were still Targaryen blooded claimants. With Lyonel Baratheon, he felt his family was insulted when an engagement between the crown prince and his daughter was broken so the prince could marry a peasant. This might seem like a “small spark”, but this would have been considered hugely offensive by the classist nobility. Note how this rebellion was resolved incredibly easily to the point where I don’t even think it warrants being labeled an actual rebellion. It seems more like it was set up for the next Baratheon rebellion since it resulted in that House gaining even more Targaryen blood than it already had. That’s the thing, the nobility wanted their children to marry Targaryens. Doesn’t sound very fearful, does it?

Robert’s Rebellion wasn’t set off by a “small spark”. The kidnapping and rape of the Lord of Winterfell’s daughter and the betrothed of the Lord of Storm’s End is not insignificant. It also didn’t set off the rebellion. The murders of multiple lords and their heirs is also not a small thing. It didn’t set off the rebellion either. What set it off was the combination of those two events with the demand for the executions of the new Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Storm’s End. Those events taken separately are not small sparks and they certainly aren’t small when put together. It took something HUGE to make a big part of the realm turn on the Targaryens. Even still, the rebels were in the minority since most of the other regions either stayed out of the conflict waiting to see how it played out or stayed loyal to the Targaryens. If Tywin had continued to stay out of the conflict, the Rebellion could have lasted indefinitely with either side winning since the Crown’s forces outnumbered them and occupied the Stormlands. 

You also seem to miss the fact that quite a few people in Westeros are still Targaryen Loyalists and want to restore them to the throne. You even miss the fact that Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen’s claim comes from their Targaryen blood. 

So no, the Targaryen rule was not based purely on fear. They clearly retained loyalty and love without the benefit of dragons as weapons.

daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I

It’s funny how you can try to quote the book while having no understanding of the passage you’re quoting. Here’s the paragraph you’re referring to:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought.Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?I am the blood of the dragon, she thought.If they are monsters, so am I. -- ADWD

This takes place in Dany’s second chapter of A Dance With Dragons after she has captured and chained two of her dragons and failed to capture the third. Why is she trying to chain them? Because Drogon killed one (1) child. That’s right. Not only is Dany compensating the people for the sheep her dragons were eating. She has no tolerance for them killing innocents. The quote above is not her glorying in the destructive power of the dragons. Nor is she going around without an ounce of guilt for terrorizing, maiming, and murdering innocents the way Robb, Balon, Stannis, Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, and every other leader in Westeros does. That is what this passage is PROVING. Seriously, using the “If they are monsters, so am I” quote is proving that Dany has guilt over the life her dragon has taken and that she has taken steps to prevent that from happening again. Compare that to Tyrion’s complete lack of care when it comes to the mass murder his family is causing:

"A lordling down from the Trident, says your father's men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants."

"I believe they call that war." -- Tyrion, ACOK

While Dany is trying to preserve lives, the mass murdering leaders of Westeros see murder and rape as the norm and completely acceptable. Even the noble Robb Stark tried to move the carnage that he and Tywin were inflicting on the Riverlands into the Westerlands and was upset that his plan to do so was partly thwarted by Edmure. His issue wasn’t with the common people suffering and dying. He just wanted the suffering and dying to happen to the common people of the Westerlands (the ones who hadn’t been forced into service as arrow fodder by the Lannisters yet) instead. Yet, you’re trying to use Dany’s guilt at one (1) child being killed by her dragon as proof of...something?

As for Dany not planting trees, yes, she fears that’s something Targaryens can’t do. But the text shows that her ancestors could and did. Dany is also planting trees in ADWD and was in the process of making Vaes Tolorro bloom in ACOK before she was invited to Qarth. The Golden Company (who wants to put her and Aegon on the Iron Throne as a pair) are even upset because they think she’s only interested in planting trees in Meereen.

When analyzing a literary work you have to understand that what the characters fear and the guilt they feel are not signs of their permanent situations. They’re signs of their internal obstacles that will be overcome in their arcs. Dany fears her dragons and fears herself and fears that she won’t be able to achieve peace and positive societal growth. Its good that she fears these things because this shows she acknowledges these issues so they can be overcome. The current Westeros leadership don’t see the issue in their mass murdering, which is an issue all on it’s own. 

Its alright if this series is above your comprehension level. There are books out there for you to read that are better suited for your capabilities, like Hop on Pop or Green Eggs and Ham. It’s probably best if you stick to those.

[alinaastarkov]

why do you and arya stans care so much if sansa fans think sansa will become queen in the north? no one writes essays on why bran won't become kitn, why rickon won't become kitn, why arya won't become qitn... you people are obsessed lmao! i don't get why people speculating on the future of their favorite character affect you all so much

They literally write essays on why Arya and Bran won’t be king or queen all the time, I’ve seen my fair share of “Rickon is going to die” metas too, so we can file this under “do your research before you start spouting nonsense in my inbox next time”. Stansas write essay upon essay about Bran and Rickon dying, Bran giving up his title. Arya’s ending being the same as the show, all so Sansa can be queen in their minds when someone points out to them that all the other Starks have better claims than her. Plus, we have to battle against the show’s ending when Stansas don’t have to. Even if they don’t write essays, they do come onto other people’s posts and inboxes to tell us all of this, just like you’re doing right now. Most of what we say on the topic is defending our favourite characters from their toxic nonsense. When people speculating on the future of their favourite character involves bashing and discrediting other characters, and requires they say it directly to people that don’t agree with them, then you’re goddamn right it’s gonna affect me. As soon as they stay in their lanes, then I’ll stop talking about it. Until then, sue me 🤷‍♀️

[elegantwoes]

Arya stans should stan Sansa if they want Arya to have every part of her arc. Now suddenly Arya's more "naturally" feminine than Sansa, is actually more beautiful, has a romantic arc (lol at this one), will become a queen and not a warrior one but a lady queen (yep training to be one with assassins), is more maternal (who cares for Sansa being a mother to her 8 yr old cousin or actually wishing for kids), and is politically more important (Sansa's betrothals or her training, what's that?)

I know I should find this situation amusing, and part of me genuinely does, but at the same time I am also angry. In the past nine years I have been part of the ASOIAF/GOT I saw how Arya Stans teared Sansa apart for everything. Her beauty: to them the only good thing about her was how beautiful she was, beyond that, Sansa was nothing. Her desire for romance, marriage and children: this one I remember vividly. Years ago on the Westeros.org site there was this discussion about what kind job would the ASOIAF characters have, and somehow the topic stumbled unto Sansa and how unambitious she would be in a modern setting. Girls like Sansa end up as a pathetic housewife whereas girls like Arya will take over the world by going into the STEM field and have a career. I got so angry reading that thread. I had to take a step back from the fandom and that site for at least a couple weeks after that. Her political arc: to them Sansa's arc was boring. Nothing interesting ever happens with Sansa. Why can't she go on exciting adventures like Arya?

To see them suddenly respond like this is mind blowing. They simple can't see Sansa being celebrated for traits and skills that Arya doesn't have. To them Arya must be superior than Sansa in everything. It doesn't matter if Arya's characterization as whole is destroyed in the process. They don't care or value Arya as an individual character. To them loving Arya means hating Sansa. Arya Stark doesn't deserve fans like these. She deserves better fans.

[stardyng]

This argument doesn’t make sense. 

There is nothing wrong with Sansa daydreaming about a possible future with a husband for starters. I don’t like how this post seems to be subtly shaming her for that. Then, the whole issue with using Ned Stark as that figure that has warned Sansa about the Lannisters is that he has not truly done that. After the whole event at the Trident, Ned Stark has left Sansa alone to figure out how things work and what to do, rather than talk to her about the situation and guide her in the right directionn. The biggest reason as to why she ended up with the idea that ‘’life is like a song’’ is because her parents have been negligent in having a conversation with her about how the world truly is. 

Then, in King’s Landing, while Ned goes in and have a long one on one conversation with Arya about how things are now, he decides to not have a similar conversation with Sansa who was currently divided in her loyalties and was struggling with her identity and her views on life (and you know, was currently engaged to the prince). Then, much later, he suddenly ends up telling her to pack her bags and that they are going to leave giving her barely any explanation as to why they are. If he even revealed a little bit more to her about the situation, she would have acted completely different about it, but all he stated was:

‘’Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.” - Sansa III, AGOT

Where is the quote of him telling her that the Lannisters are bad people and that there are doing some suspicious things right now. Where is the quote explaining to her that Cersei isn’t a good person when Sansa idealized her. Where’s the quote telling her about the plots that the Lannisters were making? He doesn’t tell her anything besides the fact that she wasn’t safe nor gives her any worthwhile explanation as to why it is better for them to leave. Then, Arya who was also against the idea of leaving gets what she wants whereas Sansa doesn’t even get to have a meeting with her literal fiancee. Obviously she is going to be bitter about this. When she asks for that, here is what they tell her:

‘‘Sansa looked up from her food. “If she can have a dancing lesson, why won’t you let me say farewell to Prince Joffrey?”

“I would gladly go with her, Lord Eddard,” Septa Mordane offered. “There would be no question of her missing the ship.”

“It would not be wise for you to go to Joffrey right now, Sansa. I’m sorry.”

Sansa’s eyes filled with tears. “But why?”

“Sansa, your lord father knows best,” Septa Mordane said. “You are not to question his decisions.”,’’- Eddard XIV, AGOT

If her father bothered to compromise with her, and let her see Joffrey once last time or at least actually give her an actual reason as to why she couldn’t meet him, she would have listened but he left her in the dark while crushing her biggest dreams and wishes. Then, when she ran away from the table, this is what Lord Eddard Stark who supposedly tells her all about how evil the Lannisters are does:

‘‘,“It’s not fair!” Sansa pushed back from her table, knocked over her chair, and ran weeping from the solar.

Septa Mordane rose, but Ned gestured her back to her seat. “Let her go, Septa. I will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell.” The septa bowed her head and sat down to finish her breakfast.’’- Eddard XIV, AGOT

He canonically stated that he ‘’will try to make her understand when we are all safely back in Winterfell,’’ because at the end of the day, none of the things he told her at this point have been an actual substantial reasoning as to why all of this is happening and why she has to go back to Winterfell. Of course Sansa is going to be surprised that the family she idealized so much wanted to hurt and use her, because at no point in the story before she was abused, someone warned her about these people and that’s including Ned Stark. I know most of you Arya stans only speed read Sansa’s chapters and anything that has to do with her that doesn’t fit that ‘’Sansa is a dumb broad who was evil to Arya’’ narrative is ignored and forgotten so facts are often very unimportant to you especially when it doesn’t fit this narrative, but you can’t just create events out of thin air. Sansa was not warned about the Lannisters and that’s that on that.

All in all, in conclusion, Ned Stark has done the bare minimal when it came to parenting Sansa and has actually been a bad father to her due to how negligent he has been of her. He doesn’t spend the time to explain the situation to her. He doesn’t even try to tell her the truth of the world. When she needs him and Septa Mordane the most, he just leaves her on her own like he did for most if not all of their stay in King’s Landing. 

Now, let’s talk bout the Tyrells because that is a completely different situation. First I have to specify. Saying that someone is a quick learner is not the complete opposite to ‘’they never make the same mistakes twice’’. Sansa learns quickly but she is not a perfect individual. She still makes blunders that she made before and that’s normal, because she’s human, and barely anyone, even these who learn fast, never makes the same mistake twice. That is especially true considering her age. Some of you Arya stans will claim that Arya is a fast learner, but she’s still make extremely impulsive (and rather thoughtless) decisions even one year an a half after the start of a story. That doesn’t change the fact that she learns a lot of things quickly. 

Now when it comes to Sansa, her reaction and thoughts surrounding her engagement to Willas Tyrell is quite different to these of hers with Joffrey. I’ll like to state once again for starters that Sansa trying to imagine a future with her betrothed is not a bad thing. Now moving on from that, Dontos is not exactly the most reliable source. He is Littlefinger’s employee and his involvement in this situation was specifically what led to her not ending up in Highgarden. It’s certainly true that the Tyrells are schemers, but their plan to wed Sansa with Willas in secret wasn’t something that would involve Sansa being mistreated in any way, and for Sansa, it was also a plan that would efficiently make sure that she was safe and away from King’s Landing and the constant abuse and threats she receives there. So her desiring to see this happen is definitely not proof that she is a slow learner when the plan was one that had more advantages to Sansa compared to Dontos’s which she not only knows a very limited amount of details about, but has been stalling for quite some time. 

Now, this quote of yours makes no sense:

(Dontos Hollard: *warns her the Tyrells are no good and arranges to smuggle her out of the city for her own safety*). 

I’m sorry but are you implying that Dontos/Littlefinger are way better than the Tyrells? None of Sansa’s allies were completely reliable which is why Sansa didn’t blindly follow any of them. Dontos was equally if not more ‘’no good’’ than the Tyrells were, and the Tyrells also wanted to get Sansa out of the city. Also, your statement ‘’for her own safety’’ also just goes to show that you aren’t paying enough attention to what was happening in Sansa’s chapters. It’s been stated in the text that Dontos had helped Sansa because he was Littefinger’s employee who Littlefinger employed in order to get her to him. It wasn’t about her own safety, as he much like the Tyrells had his personal motivations. So...using  Dontos as the ‘’voice of reason’’ that warns Sansa about potential dangers is not efficient when he is as much of a danger to her as they are. 

Now, Sansa has definitely not been slow when it came to the Tyrells and that makes itself evident in both the chapters that she has to deal with them. When she receives a letter from them, this is her first thoughts...

‘‘The invitation seemed innocent enough, but every time Sansa read it her tummy tightened into a knot. She’s to be queen now, she’s beautiful and rich and everyone loves her, why would she want to sup with a traitor’s daughter?’’ - Sansa I, ASOS

and...

‘’Does she want me to love her too? She studied the invitation, which looked to be written in Margaery’s own hand.Does she want my blessing? Sansa wondered if Joffrey knew of this supper. For all she knew, it might be his doing. That thought made her fearful. If Joff was behind the invitation, he would have some cruel jape planned to shame her in the older girl’s eyes. Would he command his Kingsguard to strip her naked once again? The last time he had done that his uncle Tyrion had stopped him, but the Imp could not save her now.’‘ - Sansa I, ASOS

This goes to show that Sansa didn’t blindly trust the Tyrells. In fact, she has observed with attention a lot of what they do and some of their potential motives. She doesn’t assume the best out of Margaery because she is beautiful and graceful, she thinks about all of the reasons as to why the girl would want to meet her, and the possibility that she may not be completely good does cross Sansa’s mind multiple times. This is a far reach from the girl who loved Joffrey without ever meeting or talking to him before. 

Then, when she does start to spend time with them, she has a much better grasp of their character than she had of Cersei and Joffrey at the beginning of AGOT as shown with:

‘’Margaery was different, though. Sweet and gentle, yet there was a little of her grandmother in her, too.’‘- Sansa II, ASOS

In here, we see that Sansa definitely likes Margaery and has a very positive opinion on her, yet is still capable of seeing that there’s much more to Margaery that than that. Showcasing that there has in fact been growth compared to the first book on her part. She is also rather critical of their plans as well, as shown here:

‘‘ Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does . . . the realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be warinside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red. Sansa was surprised that Margaery did not see it too.’‘ - Sansa II, ASOS

She doesn’t blindly see the Tyrells as completely unfaillable. Of course you also have to consider that Sansa’s rather uncertain about whether her own viewpoint is valid due to how she internalized the idea that she is stupid, so she often dismisses her ideas, regardless of how valid they are due to that as shown here:

‘’ She is older than me, she must be wiser. And her father, Lord Tyrell, he knows what he is doing, surely. I am just being silly.’’ - Sansa II, ASOS. 

Sansa has grasped that there is something wrong with the idea that Joffrey and Margaery will wed, and that the Tyrells must know of the vile nature of the boy, and of what could potentially happen if they were to wed (a disastrous conflict), and she has been right as Littlefinger much later confirms her earlier fears. However, this is not the only thing that showcases the fact that Sansa didn’t blindly follow the Tyrells.

While the idea that the Tyrells might want her for her claim has not crossed Sansa’s mind before it was suggested by Dontos, it makes perfect sense that she hasn’t put much thought into that. Sansa is simply not used to the idea of having a claim, because through out her life, she had never been in a situation before where her claim was remotely important. She had three brothers that came before her, and upon the death of two of them, her first thoughts obviously won’t be that she has more chance to inherit Winterfell because power is not what she desires. She values her family so her thoughts simply lingered on the fact that her brothers were dead and the other one (who should in theory have Winterfell after the war) was in fact fighting a war. That being said, her reaction upon Dontos’s warning versus hers upon her father’s warning (if you can even call them that) are quite different. 

Due to the fact that there is more legitimacy to Dontos’s warning and she has grown as a person, she factors them much more into things than she did with her father’s as shown here:

‘’Even if Dontos was right, and it is Winterfell he wants and not me, he still may come to love me for myself.’’ - Sansa II, ASOS

and...

‘‘But she had not forgotten his words, either.The heir to Winterfell , she would think as she lay abed at night. It’s your claim they mean to wed .‘‘ - Sansa II, ASOS

Here we are shown Sansa considering the fact that Dontos may have been right about certain things and molding her plan based on that. She decides that she is going to make sure that Willas starts valuing her for her. This proves that she has grown much less dismissive of others warnings and even if she might not agree with the way they would deal with a problem or how they view life, she does take what she sees as useful to her in order to mold her viewpoint on life, people or even what she plans for the future. Therefore, she has not ignored the warning against people that aren’t even half as vile as the person dontos is employed to, she just didn’t blindly follow everything that he says because she is no longer the kind of person who does that for anyone anymore.

Also, you mentioned that Sansa was surprised when Sansa found out that the Tyrells have discarded her after her engagement to Willas was annulled. However, in the text, there has been no lines that suggest that she has been surprised. Case in point here:

‘‘ None of the Tyrells are here , she realized suddenly.’‘ - Sansa III, ASOS

and here...

‘‘And here Sansa found the Tyrells. Margaery gave her such a sad look, and when the Queen of Thorns tottered in between Left and Right, she never looked at her at all. Elinor, Alla, and Megga seemed determined not to know her.My friends , Sansa thought bitterly. ’‘ - Sansa III, ASOS

She definitely was bitter, but there is nothing to prove the idea that Sansa was as wildly shocked as she was when she realized that the Lannisters weren’t as good as she once did. This is because she started to understand the Tyrells more than she did the Lannisters in the first book. She realized that Margaery may not be as candid as she once thought, she considered the idea that they may want her for her claim thoroughly, she was rather suspicious of their actions when she received the letter from Margaery, and she has been critical of their plans. So, while Sansa may have made one or two mistakes when it came to the way she dealt with the Tyrells, there is a humongous growth in her attitude and a clear improvement in how she acts and thinks regarding them compared to the first book when she had to deal with the Lannisters. 

So all in all, Sansa is definitely not a slow learner, as much as she is a fast learner who makes some mistakes sometimes like every other actually well-written characters (which arya isn’t which is why she never makes any mistakes ever and arya stans are so critical to characters who are actually flawed and well-written like sansa) in a story. In her situation with Ned, not only did her actions make sense considering her age and the information she knew, but Ned had failed to be a proper father to her and concretely explain the situation to Sansa making what followed after is his fault and not the one of his 11 year old daughter. In her situation with Dontos, not only has she shown clear growth and improvement when it came to dealing with suspicious families wanting to use her for her claim, but it’s important to remember that Dontos himself has his own selfish goals and motivations to hand Sansa to one of the most immoral men in Westoros for money making any argument that Sansa should blindly listen to what he says invalid, while also considering the fact that growth in a person doesn’t mean that they are incapable of still slipping. So in conclusion, Sansa is a quick learner who improved massively from book one to three. Thank you @faerunner for making that more clear to me than ever before. 

Sansa Stark worked hard to meet the expectations that were bestowed upon her. She had to develop a wide range of skills her whole life and remember a ridiculously long list of names (heraldry, major/minor families, people in power, etc), and be the perfect lady. These were all things her parents wanted her to learn. But they never prepared her for the political side of things. She came in King’s Landing unprepared for a lot of the things that she was going to have to face. She had to learn and adapt on her own in order to survive, and she had to do it quick, which is why it didn’t make sense when the show-writers acted as if Sansa was a slow learner, because one of the reasons why she managed to survive was because she was able to quickly adapt to her new environment and learn new skills. It was even stated that she was able to be a proper lady at three years old, but yeah sure she’s such a slow learner. 

[tgrlmls]

WHY HER?

Game of Thrones, some over-analyzing scenes, characters and ships

Alright then…

I know that I am a little late to comment on the hot topic that was the Game of Thrones series finale extravaganza and anything that is “jonsa”. I have been very angry about the last two seasons for a long time, but it looked like everyone has said what needs to be said one way or another. But I love analyzing and I have loved and loved this show and its characters for so long I have the right to over-analyze it to hell… ok? Good.

So… let’s go to my beginnings. GOT shippervise beginnings. I have been waiting since Season 1 for Jon and Deanerys to meet. I was sure their story arcs would come together ok? And Kit and Emilia had some really cute pictures that were taken for magazines etc. Fan arts, theories, anything jonerys, I was all into them. Incest was the only thing that kept me openly shipping jonerys but I was intrigued and I was ready to accept that “well… they don’t know they are aunt and nephew…maybe that will cause them to be star-crossed lovers? The tragic but beautiful love story? Or maybe knowing the Targeryen traditions they will say “you know what? Never mind that related thing bygones “and be a power couple? I was open to all options.

Then came season 6 episode 4… THE REUNION…of Jon and Sansa…what? That scene was so beautifully acted and shot and the music oh my god feelings. But I said to myself that is sibling love. It is normal they have both been through a lot. It was poetic, in a platonic way. But that scene and a lot of scenes that season between them were so very well done. I found myself saying “oh please don’t ruin this by making Sansa trust Littlefinger and wanting more power please.” To their credit…they didn’t. But they toyed with this idea too much too long for my taste. Anyway, yay jonsa have platonic relationship and some Starks are content for a change so I was happy. But the big thing was coming right? Jon and Dany.

Then came season 7. Started nice enough. I liked the differences between Jon and Dany and their first encounter. Dany was interested that was obvious. She was curious about Jon. Jon was not on his knees by her beauty or her dragons. BUT then she kept him as a prisoner…and the annoying “bend the knee” scenes came. I mean this woman accepted Iron Islands to be independent over a conversation. And she was not helping thousands of people, unless they bend the knee. What was “Breaking the Wheel” exactly? That is a question that I still can’t find the answer to. Dany wanted to break the Wheel of great houses ruling the people, by coming there demanding they bend the knee to HER because SHE IS FROM A GREAT HOUSE?

Ok that is for another discussion but all these things and lack of emotion for me in Jon and Dany scenes made me a Jonsa shipper in season 8. And lack of wit and general lack of IQ from other characters like Tyrion made me a big Sansa stan. My girl was wise. She was right. But what broke my heart the most was the treatment of Jon.

My Jon, had a character. He was a leader. He didn’t want it, but he was good at it. He was a natural. He always tried to do what was right, by his conscience. My Jon, even if he was head over the heels in love with a woman would not be a doormat. He would not sit idly by when  anyone is being burned alive. He was honarable, he was brave, he was just. He made mistakes, he failed but his intentions were always for the best. He left the woman he loved before because he was trying to do the right thing. And it was the right thing.

Anyway these issues aside, there are very interesting dialogues and acting choices in season 8 that does not make sense with what the writers were trying to sell us. And many scenes were analyzed in many great tumblr posts, probably this one had been too, but if I may, I want to over-analyze and ask my questions too.

That scene will be the “Why her?” scene or “Sansa betrays Jon’s trust and tells Tyrion his secret” scene and I can’t believe how the latter discussion can even be an issue with the way this scene was acted and shot.

So it begins “WHY HER?”

Let’s start with the beginning of the scene, shall we? Jon is leaving with Dany literally going to war, Tyrion -as it seems- seeks and finds Sansa, but she is so distracted and lost in her thoughts she doesn’t have have time for small talk she gets right to the point “Why HER?”

A very important thing to note here is that this is happenning very soon after Sansa learns that Jon is not her half-brother but her cousin. Of course we didn’t see her or Arya’s reaction to this. Hell we didn’t even properly see how Jon himself feels about this. Why would we care about these characters we loved for years learning such an impactful truth right? Sarcasm on. I mean they learn that truth right after they say they only need each other, we see the pack all together one last time and the scene cuts. Ok, sure!

But where I am getting at is that these characters are not robots and of course this information has someway affected them.

Sansa is watching the dragons all mighty powerful and scary here. But she is not afraid. She seems conflicted, and asks Tyrion why he is following Dany. She is trying to understand why Jon is following her as well maybe. Because Jon never gave her, or any of the Starks or the Northmen for that matter any reason other than Dany helped them with the Army of the Dead. Yes, but that doesn’t mean she’ll be a good queen. She didn’t help them because she is a great leader who cares about them and help them survive. No.

Tyrion:She loves your brother

Sansa:That doesn’t mean she’ll be a good queen

That is the thing that must be bothering actually. She agreed to help the North because she loves Jon.

And if it were not Jon and someone she wouldn’t fall for, she was going to refuse to help until that person bent the knee. Or maybe even after that. But again that was the stupidity of Season 7. So moving on to the scene at hand again,

Sansa looks sad here. Not plotting, not scheming, not angry…sad.

Tyrion: You seem determined to dislike her.

Yes she does and why is that? What reason Sansa Stark has to dislike Dany? Well, she made them bend the knee and took their independence? But that aside why is Tyrion and Jon are determined to like her? We will get to that in this same scene.

Tyrion talks about how a peaceful relations between North and the Iron Throne would be best for the people.

 Sansa: Jon will be Warden of the North so good relationship seems likely.

 She cuts Tyrion’s sentence as it looks like the “good relationships” part has triggered her somehow.

Tyrion stops and looks the other way almost apologetically

 Tyrion:I don’t expect him to spend much time here going forward…

 And Sansa cuts him again, more triggered and even more irritated than before

Sansa:Well I suppose it’s up to him.

Ok this one is really interesting, Sansa is very irritated about the relationship of Jon and Dany, this irritation right here is not about the North. She is angry at Jon. But this one, this anger right here is not because independence or anything political.

She says it’s up to him. Well the way the scene was acted,really leans into Sansa being jealous about Jon and Dany. She knows what Tyrion is implying. Jon will be in King’s Landing with Dany because of their relationship, the North and the IT will be in good relations because of that said relationship.

Sansa is very disturbed. It catches Tyrion’s attention, he asks her if she is alright, I mean look at her. She is on the verge of tears.

Many people argued Tyrion misreads this, I am not sure, it is possible but it also feels like he is somehow trying to console her, telling her she will be the real power in the North, that it is her word he is seeking of in this arrangements. He is trying to make sure Sansa has accepted these terms. BUT it is not for Dany’s claim. Tyrion is not afraid Sansa will oppose Dany and Dany will lose supporters. No he is afraid but for other reasons. Which we will come to.

Even Sansa realizes this, and asks him why he is concerned. Dany has everything right now.

She still has her armies, the northern armies, her dragons ...and JON. 

Tyrion: She is your queen too!

Tyrion: You don’t have to be her friend, but why provoke her? How is that in the best interest of your family or the North..

Sansa: You’re afraid of her.

Tyrion is afraid. For Sansa, for the Starks. This is the first time Sansa realizes even the supporters of Dany are afraid of what she is capable of.

She comes clean to Tyrion, tells him what’s really bothering her.

Sansa: I don’t want Jon to go down there…the men in my family don’t do well in the Capital.

While it is true that North men were not able to fight with the schemings of southron Capital. The bigger part in this is “Sansa doesn’t want Jon to go.” She fears for his safety. He is going to the Dragon Queen’s war. It is dangerous. Cersei is dangerous. Dany is dangerous. And Jon is a big player in this game even if he doesn’t want to. He was born into this. Even if he was Ned Stark’s bastard he was still important he was made The King in the North, of course he was still a big player even after he bent the knee. But there was more. Jon was not a big piece in this game. He was the BIGGEST because of the truth of his lineage. So when Tyrion unknowingly brings this up, Sansa gets that there are even bigger things at stake here.

She doesn’t want Jon to leave but there is also something more on the line here. Jon is the true heir. Her expression is full of worry and sadness as she turns her head looking away.

Tyrion notices this of course asks her if she is alright. But he doesn’t get it. He starts to tell her about how he believes in Dany, trying to convince Sansa or maybe himself. Because how can you possibly believe in someone making the World a better place, with constantly fearing she will snap and burn people for some reason that is justified in her head at the same time?

She thinks about her options. She KNOWS this game, she saw first-hand. She lived the ramifications “when you play the game of thrones you win or you die” 

And she decides to play the game actively. Trying to keep this secret was not going to protect Jon. Her father tried it. But Jon was sent to the Night’s Watch eventually. Now he holds so much importance even without this secret. And more importantly. Dany knows the secret. Her hand, Tyrion is even afraid of her, warning Sansa not to oppose her. How long will she be kept from unleashing her anger. How long till before someone calls Jon a King? How long till Jon opposes Dany because of something he doesn’t agree. We know Jon. Sansa knows Jon. (I mean real Jon, until he became a doormat, he must be there somewhere) trying to be passive will not have. They are in this game whether they wanted it or not. Ned tried to refuse to be in, he lost his life for it. His family almost lost everything. Jon tried to refuse to take a part of it but anywhere he went, anthing he did people followed him, chose him, put him in the game all the time. There is no middle ground.

Yes she betrays her word. She swore an oath and she broke it. Because “what is honor compared to a woman’s love” Or a man’s for that matter.