#topic sansa stark stans

[fromtheseventhhell]

I'm not sure how to get it into people's heads that Arya is a female character. She's not a boy, not nonbinary, trans, agender, or genderless. I don't intend this in a way to be negative or wanky, but her girlhood is imbedded within her character. The problem isn't that Arya stans are missing the point by overemphasizing her femininity and wanting her to be a barefoot tradwife baby making machine, but that we're stating it exists when the majority of fandom and the show itself have gone out of the way to minimize the relevancy of her gender. I'm fully convinced there are a lot of people who think Arya would be the exact same character had GRRM created her as a male character named Arry instead, perhaps they'd do a better job at acknowledging her importance.

What's most ironic to me is how these same fans will gush and coo over the sisters being more alike than we think, but only if it involves giving Arya's characteristics to Sansa. Well acktually, Sansa likes to ride horses just as much as Arya does! They're so alike uwu! But dare acknowledge that Arya has traits and aspects commonly associated to Sansa then not only does that get accusations of wanting Arya to become Sansa, but that it's solely about showing Sansa up and wanting her to grovel in Arya's shadow and superiority 🙄 Hypocrisy and projection showing itself.

Somewhat of an aside, but I recently saw a post on reddit complaining about the fact that all four of Daemon's children survived the Dance specifically focused on the fact that both Rhaena and Baela lived. According to the OP, one of them should've died and their post-war roles in the story should've been given to only one of them. Which at its core is really the main conflict between Sansa and Arya stans, no matter how much the Stansas want to cover their ears and play dumb. It's not about Arya stans projecting their sibling squabbles onto the two of them but simply the fact that it's not possible for two characters to fulfill the same role in the story, specifically when it involves two female characters. The existence of two Stark sisters is an inconvenience for the people who want the story to revolve around Sansa.

I have to believe there's some bubbles that they don't want to admit will burst if TWOW will ever be released and that's why they cling to the idea that Arya stans are the delusional ones. They have to believe that the parts of Sansa's seasons 5-8 storyline they like came from GRRM instead of D&D or else their Jonsa and QITN fantasies will fall apart. I have no idea how someone can watch the scene where Sansa tells Arya she couldn't survive what she had while Arya can only sputter out that she was training and believe 1) it makes sense for their book characters and 2) D&D didn't blatantly favor Sansa and Sophie over Arya and Maisie.

This ask came literally seconds after I drafted a post talking about this exact topic and it's so wild to me that we were both up thinking about Arya + her girlhood and wanting to discuss it 🥹

As for this ask, you really hit the nail on the head. Arya's gender is an essential aspect of her journey but fandom ignores that because they've decided that there's only one "right" way to exist as a female character. Arya's self-esteem issues stem from her being a non-conforming Lady in a misogynistic society, she has to disguise herself as a boy in part because of the threat of sexual violence, in Harrenhal she is assigned gender-specific tasks/labor, political matches are made without her knowledge/consent, she is threatened with sexual violence multiple times, and even her role within the FM is influenced by her gender. Her being non-conforming doesn't mean she's the complete antithesis of everything feminine. The obsession with propping up Sansa has ruined people's ability to perceive complex female characters, ironically including Sansa herself. They genuinely would've respected Arya more if she had died passively rather than fight for her life and you can't tell me that isn't misogyny.

That Reddit post is a great example of how people genuinely can't (or refuse to) comprehend the idea of two female characters occupying the same space. Cause you're right, that is the root of the issue. I think the only reason they bother with the fake "Stark sisters uwu" crap is because they've backed themselves into a faux-feminist corner and they don't want to look hypocritical for disliking Arya. So instead, they pretend to care all while rewriting her to serve as Sansa's prop. This is also why so many Queen!Sansa truthers are also anti-Dany + think that Sansa becoming Queen depends on Dany's downfall. They desperately cling to the show as canon, when D&D have openly admitted they changed the story because they favored Sansa/Sophie. They're fine with how show!Arya is written because to them, that's exactly how she should be; a subservient lapdog for Sansa. TWOW is definitely going to ruin that illusion, and one of the reasons I'm optimistic about it being released is getting to see fandom's reaction.

[katy-89]

Discussing Rhaegar Targaryen in this fandom is boring. More than discussing Dany or Sansa.

Rhaegar Targaryen is literally the devil.

Reading this fandom discussion you would think Rhaegar is on par with Crastor or Ramsey. Sometimes the takes about him are literally at odds with the text of the book, subtext, and the main themes explored. I don't know why people are so hypercritical of this character, we have virtually no reliable information on his motivation or actions. I guess it's easier to blame one person for all fallout of the war than to accept it's caused by a Veriety of factors. I really think we could use a moratorium on "Rhaegar Targaryen kicked my dog" posts.

Character are supposed to fuck up and create conflict, their actions are a way for the author to explore a theme. Every single character in this book makes mistakes that have horrible unintended results.

Reducing what Rhaegar and Lyanna means for the narrative, and Jon's themes of love vs duty in particular, to just "Rhaegar Bad" is just a bad faith way of engaging with the story. It's also possibly a less interesting way of reading it but for some people outrage is fun so that's clearly up for debate.

I truly don't give a fuck if "Rhaegar fucked up", but I'm incredibly tired of seeing the character vilified just to have people shouting the same talking points over and over with out any deeper reading of the situation or speculation about alternatives. Until WOW comes out to add new information to the pile, I just think this topic is boring and doesn't justify the 50 bashing posts per week we get.

And I'm incredibly tired of seeing the age stuff being an issue ONLY when it comes to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Y'all doesn't care about age gaps, you just have an agenda. Or you would care about Oberyn, Cersei, Renly, Robert etc fucking teenagers. You don't.

Also....Shout out to the Bobby B Stans who refered to Lyanna as Roberts property and Rhaegar is wrong for stealing her. Thank you for strengthening my conviction that Lyanna Stark could have personally burned westeros to the ground and been justified. I'd support her.

[jackoshadows]

Hi! I'm new to the asoiaf fandom (ik too late .. but better late than never right??) . So I'm a Tumblr girly and before even knowing about all the plot points, I knew too well about the fandom discourse - particularly sansa, Arya, Daenerys and Jon. And i wanna say why I get so many people are mad at hardcore sansa fans. Like only today I found out about the original leaked letter of grrm in 1991 and was fascinated about it, so I was reading everything related to it and finally ended up reading a discussion on asoiaf.westeros.org

Someone posted a long post about how grrm's original plot points have remained more or less the same and I was nodding along and i kid you not - the very next post was about how Arya will be a child at the end of series so many plot of hers will be Sansa's now given that she'll be a woman by westeros' standards. And I was like "weird but at least this person was polite and stayed within the topic of discussion" . Then not even TWO posts after that , there's a long post about how sansa and Jon are meant to be together (like quotes from books and their supposed interpretation - spoiler alert: totally wrong btw). Like the first quote is "poor Jon, he gets jealous because he's a bastard" and the poster is like " Poor Jon, he is jealous because he's a bastard and won't be marrying blushing redheads to make them queen of all the realm... but what if he isn't a bastard and is the crown prince?" (This is cp btw) . Like you just called your fav character a gold digger.

Jon is a bastard now so he will not be making anyone queen .. BUT when he is the prince? Lets make a PowerPoint of stupid connections that is clearly meant to be taken seriously as a proof of the never-will-happen-relationship. I may be new to this fandom but I've been in enough fandoms to know self insert ships. The Hunger Games for example, I've read crackpot theories of how Katniss should forgive Gale for playing a part in the plan that ended up killing Prim because she has killed people in the games too. For whatever reason they have the hots for Gale so they want Katniss to end up with him so they run loops trying to make that happen.

Like , I wanna read about things that matter - I was trying to read interpretations of the blocked paragraph. I want to read an absurd theory of how Tyrion will be the king at the end . I don't wanna see a ridiculously long post of a crackship in a place where nobody asked for it !! Why do they have this behaviour of promoting their ship everywhere? I mean literally everywhere ??

Like literally the entire basis for Jonsa is taking away everything GRRM has written for Arya - in terms of political arcs, importance in the North/House Stark/Winterfell, relationships with her siblings, with her parents etc. - and giving to Sansa because she's beautiful and fits into the tradfem standards of femininity. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's why anytime there is a discussion of Jonrya or Arya becoming Lady of Winterfell or a leader of the North, it starts pivoting to Sansa because they can only see her as leading the North because she's the right kind of girl - this in a region where Robb got his support after Greywind chewed off the GreatJon's fingers! The dissonance is real.

Also them using the leaked OG outline for Jonsa is so frigging hilarious and ridiculous. Worms for brains.

So yeah, it is annoying and frustrating but unfortunately that's fandom sexism for you. The ASoIAF/GOT fandom is incredibly sexist and bizarrely most of this nonsense is from women stanning a sexist character while holding her up as some kind of feminist icon and bullying other fans if they critique that character's sexism and bullying.

[saintshigaraki]

☕ + sansa stark I beg

SANSA STARK!!! THE NORTHERN GIRL!!! WINTERFELL'S DAUGHTER!!!!

she is soooo important to me mao. probably THE fictional character of all time for me right alongside katara and azula. her vale plot is so important to me. so overhated lmao but really what were we expecting. it amazes me that people genuinely believe that sansa's story will end anywhere but the north. she's getting back to winterfell where either yes, i do believe there's a chance she'll end up queen in the north, or in some place of major political power after she takes out littlefinger (which she will! she will slay the giant!) idk it just annoys me so much when certain stans discredit her bc she's not part of the '''''key five''''' which was in the DRAFT of asoiaf. the same draft that involved a love triangle between arya jon and tyrion and the same draft where sansa is dead before the end of the first book. so idk why ppl keep acting as though it is in any way relevant to sansa's importance to the story.

anyway <3 sansa my most beloved. the future slayer of savage giants and the blood of winterfell <3

send me a ☕ and a topic and i'll give you my opinion <3

[asoiaf-source]

Fighting Hate with more Hate. That always works, right?

“Sansa’s fans are so defensive of her because of the rest of the fandom demonize her and hate her for no reason.” - helenakey

So then the answer is to demonize the other women characters for no reason?

Of course there are going to be ‘fans’ that hate on a character for no reason, I’ve seen people post unnecessary and unreasonable hate on many of the characters, not just Sansa, and they can be as annoying, but they are not representative of the entire fandom. Not ALL fans are hating on her, and some are just looking at the character critically. I’m new to the tumblr metas (avoided for a long time due to the toxic reputation), but i’ve been on ASOIAF forums for a long time and there are plenty of Sansa supporters, even if she is still quite a polarizing character due to how people wish to interpret her... but Sansa stans on tumblr take it to the next level!

I’ve never seen this side of her fans before, or at least so much nearly every day, and subsequently the many rebuttals! And how often they like throwing other characters under the bus, often for hypocritical reasons. Like the OP yendany said, they ignore the trauma in other characters or dismiss it as not as bad, when it is often much, much worse. They criticize and attack other female characters to prop up Sansa ‘better’ survival skills, or attribute qualities to her she doesn’t possess (I see this a lot in fanfiction, before I realized the self-insert aspect), or use her age as excuse when all the main characters are young or even younger than her. The line porcelain to ivory to steel... can really apply to any character that has to grow up and face the harsh realities of the world... so it is really hypocritical to think Sansa is special in some way for overcoming her situation, all the characters are going through the same struggle, and many have it much worse. That is where I think so much of the anti-sansa stans come from, the hypocrisy and the tearing down of other just as deserving of sympathy/empathy characters, especially other women characters. It is a weird juxtaposition, that anyone with a reasonable sense of objectivity can pick up on and often do.

I mostly see it done against Arya and Dany, the two more prominent female characters in the books (thus the 2 who draw more focus than #3 Sansa?). The two female characters GRRM is telling a lot of his story through and spending a large amount of the text (right from book 1) to develop their growth as characters and showcase their strengths, intelligence, determination, fortitude, agency, cleverness, resilience and so much more. It’s as if because the other women are not ‘pure’ or see themselves that way and stronger in personality and character that somehow their suffering doesn’t affect them as much because they are tougher and didn’t let anything that happened to them stop them from growing stronger. They aren’t dwelling in victim-hood too long before they pick themselves back up and move forward.

And yet, they cheer when Sansa starts to grow stronger... Sansa’s growth has been much slower, we are moving into book 6 and she is just starting to gain a bit of agency, but she is still heavily under the tutelage of Baelish. We will see how far she gains in the next book and if she will break with Baelish by the end of it and be a fully independent player. But her development isn’t nearly on the same scale as Daenerys and Arya. That isn’t to imply that she isn’t going to be important, but it is clear from the text that she is not one of the main focuses for GRRM, or he would have developed her faster and given her more to do. We will see how much ground he can cover in 1-2 books, but there is only so much he will be able to accomplish and have it be believable, especially with so many POVs and story lines that he needs to develop.

I actually think their attempts to (over) defend her backfire, as so many feel the need to point out the falsehoods and misinterpretations, especially when they are wildly mean-spirited and completely refutable by the text. As I traverse through the ASOIAF metas I often come across fans metas writing rebuttals to other posts, to ‘correct’ their conclusion or ‘facts’. I’ve read so many of these they are starting to get repetitive, I also read some of the Sansa-stan posts they are rebutting and, yeah I can see why so many get upset. If you don’t like it when others tears down or dismisses Sansa, why do you think fans of the other characters wouldn’t comment when you go after their favs, especially so mean-spiritedly.

I don’t think I ever felt so much negativity towards the Sansa character until I had to read so many skewed and biased metas turning her into some kind of saintly YA Disney princess type that is just too good for this cruel world. That kind of character has no place in a series like this. You can’t help but want to point out the wild inaccuracies, and it makes me feel a negativity towards a character I didn’t feel negative to before. And I don’t want to feel negative towards her, she is a Stark and I root for the Starks, especially the kids. I often defended her against those who (I feel) just don’t understand what it is like to be a preteen girl, I relate to a lot of Sansa’s weaknesses and how she feels, especially at that age, and that is her appeal (to me) - the fact that she starts off very weak.

Sansa is weak both physically and mentally, she cares too much about rank, privilege, and what others think about her, her desire to conform, for everything to be proper, and properly in their place. She has the luxury to think that way because she is a rich, pretty, noble girl who ranks at the top of society, of course she sees life as great and never questions it... she is already at the top and winning from birth. This is why (I think) she is so hard on Arya, she messes with her idea of what is proper/good/right.  Arya isn’t pretty and doesn’t try to be, she acts more boy than girl, she plays with dirty, smelly, poor children, etc... Those are all an embarrassment to Sansa and go against what a proper lady of her rank should do and care about. Once they head south, all the things Arya gets away with at home will stand out even more and reflect badly on Sansa, by association. So, she criticizes and distances herself even more, because she wants to join the elite glamorous world of the nobility.

The other girls don’t have those weaknesses, that is why they are seen as better able to cope than Sansa does.  They grow quicker and stronger faster because they are not as inhibited by what the ‘rules’ are. This isn’t a criticism of Sansa, this is an observation and I think it is the entire point of including a character like her in the story. GRRM could have followed the original outline for her, but he wanted to ‘reform/rescue’ her character and give her (I hope) a better path back to her family and happiness. I think it is GRRMs way to show how young girls should NOT romanticize noble life or being pretty will lead to a ‘perfect’ life. That thinking of yourself as a lady or being a princess/queen isn’t what is important. That marring a ‘title’ (lord/prince) or a handsome face is not enough to lead to happiness. It is what you do with your life, and how you care about others and who cares about you - that is what is important. But some Sansa fans seem to miss that and want her to have all those thing and more... they want it both ways, her to learn all those things, and yet still get all those things... a beautiful princess life clear of the harsh actions to gain it and also a happy family married to the best, more heroic and honorable man - a fairy tale ending. And that is not ASOIAF.

They are reducing her entire arc to becoming a nicer, more pure, and pretty, prize for a man to love, marry and make their queen. If so, GRRM will botch the ending of his series and all the points he *seems* to be making thus far.

A major theme (to me) in Sansa arc is her lack of value in her home and family. Sansa (to me) is like the small town girl who can’t wait to leave her family / Winterfell behind and to move to the big glamorous city (King’s Landing) and become royalty. But once she got there wasn’t able to accumulate with its more complicated and corrupt realities of the court. Even setting the cruelty of Joffrey aside (he is an aberration, not a normal example), how everyone else ostracizes or ignores her (except the hound, and to some extent Tyrion - although he isn’t all that great). The way the Tyrells treat her before and after her wedding is much more representative of how typical court life and nobility behaves normally (I think). Sansa never saw the true value of being surrounded by people who love and care about YOU and whom you can trust and rely upon - until that is all taken from her. She slowly sees how the people at court are corrupt and deceitful under all the beauty and glamor she so aspired to only after being fooled more than once, and (to me) no longer wants any part of it, but is forced to play, thanks to Baelish.

This is a point I find many of her fan miss, they think Sansa is going to learn to play the game, destroy everyone with her cunning and beauty and rise to the top to be queen or a ruler - a path which will ultimately lead to down a very dark and cynical path... but somehow they think Sansa will be different, and her rise will be more like a Disney princess story, one where she will gain power without having to sink low to do it. That is NOT the kind of book GRRM is writing.

”I’ll make them love me.” - another childish statement, you can’t make people love you, you earn love and respect. And Sansa hasn’t done that once the entire series, she hasn’t made a single friend. No one is looking to follow or fight for/beside Sansa, save Baelish, and we all know that plan is doomed to fail, as he isn’t to be trusted or relied upon and wants to use her. I would even question her friendship with Jeyne Poole as it is clear she never saw them as equals, and that is not real friendship... more like Jeyne was a companion/lady-in-waiting type.

The few people who care about her (other than family) either are working on behalf of an oath to Catelyn, or have their own ambitions/sexual desires/pity for her and not necessarily care about her for herself because she was a good and loyal friend to them. Maybe this will change in the next book, but with Baelish keeping close tabs and guiding her, who knows how well she will be able to make any genuine relationships with others given all the secrets she has to keep.

Her only realistic path to leadership is through marriage and that is hardly giving her agency as a heroic rise to a leader of a men... more like sleeping her way to the top.  Not something I want for Sansa, and I hope her ‘marriage’ to Tyrion works as plot armor against her being used like that.

Besides GRRM has kinda stressed that ‘real’ leadership comes from understanding people, observation, and experience, and not just from strategics marriage (Margaery, Cersei) or inheritance (Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei - she could prove the point all on her own :). Every leader in the book so far has to make compromises, make hard decisions and even make harsh, sometimes very bad decisions and live with those consequences. None of the characters in the series have escaped this as much as Sansa has, since so much of her story thus far is about her lack of agency, and being a pawn used by others (and to some extent she still is with Baelish). For her to make it to the end w/o doing anything and staying ‘pure’ and that is how she ends up on top, by essentially not taking many large personal risks, allowing others to do all the heavy lifting morally, mentally and physically. If winning means standing on the sidelines watching everyone else do the WORK, and just giving suggestive nudges here and there to have things turn out in your favor so you can just coast to the top (that is the Baelish way)... well, that is kinda the worst message GRRM could leave us with.

If GRRM wants Sansa to become a leader, she will have to get her hands dirty too, she will have to take great personal risks to gain power and accept the consequences good or bad that result, learn from them and move forward... otherwise it defeats one of the main points of his series and turns her into a simplistic cliche version of a character.  Every character with a POV has gone through this, it is one of the major themes in ASOIAF, a more realistic, less easy way of looking at how you obtain power and learn by experience and a series of victories and defeats. Thus far Sansa has also avoided examining her actions and how they have affected her, she either never thinks about them, changes the facts to suit her better, or blames others without seeing the part she also played... I’m not blaming her, but her action did contribute to the situation... she never seems to realize this and I feel it is going to eventually hit her hard, she has to mature and grow out of her ‘unreliable narrator’ eventually, and it must lead to something for GRRM to make it such a large part of her narrative of coping with her trauma. I assume he wrote her this way for a reason and is going to do something with it.

I’m looking forward to a darker more realistic Sansa who has more agency and understanding, and I expect her to make her own mistakes and moral compromises (well she already has, but there was some coercion - but it also means she is capable of doing so) just like all the other POVs have had to do. I also look forward to her finally owning up to her past actions and how they also contributed to where she is now. If she can’t take some personal responsibility she will never grow. That is a part of having agency, understanding how your decisions and actions affect you and others.

I wish all the back and forth would stop, cause I’m tired of seeing it in my feeds, but I guess it has been going on for years - the same arguments/rebuttals - so I guess it will continue, even after we get the next book... I think only the completion of the entire series will end some of these arguments, but who knows - after some of the meta I’ve read, there will probably be even more, lol.

Well, I wanted to comment and give my two cents, but it ended up being longer and I guess for me all this is still new and offsetting.  I guess I had more to say that I thought, even though I edited A LOT out because I wanted to keep it focused. I’ve just started to dip my toes into this crazy platform, so I’m sure this is just the tip of the toxic metas that I heard can be found here... can’t wait to read the anti-dany metas... that is sure to fill me with a sad rage as well, i know the show did her no favors, sigh....

[stardyng]

I don't understand what's wrong with Sansa not blindly trusting Jon's judgment. She's one of his advisors and the Lady Of Winterfell, her role isn't to agree with everything he does, but to vouch for what she thinks is best for her people and to lead him to the right path. Cersei had a bunch of ''yes mans'' in AFFC and look how that turned out. She literally put King's Landing in a troubling area. If Sansa blindly followed Jon, they wouldn't have even started a rebellion, and if they did, they wouldn't have won the Battle of the Bastards.

[chispas-and-broken-bindings]

What Dany stans do with Dany , you do the same thing with Jon and Sansa .

Okay, nonny...I’ll admit it. I have a bad memory, so by all means pass on receipts, but in the mean time let me try and find all the times I've written about how Jon or Sansa's feelings and intentions excuse their actions (since I'm assuming you are referring to this post here).

Let's start with Sansa. 

Outside of fan-fiction, which is totally separate than canon analysis, I’ve written about Sansa Stark in the context of the books exactly once. 

While she is great and all, she’s not all that exciting for me to analyze...her potential is there, and I think her chapters are sad and lovely to read, but we’re five books in and she’s yet to have much of any power, and power is largely what I’ve been interested in examining when I have the urge to write. That being said, there is a meta or two hanging out there, written by others, about what Sansa does with the little agency she does have, and I found them to be interesting reads. Perhaps a kind soul will drop some links. 

But I digress. This is about me...and what I do with Jon and Sansa, right? 

Even in my tiny nothing post about Sansa, did I use her feelings to justify her many crimes? (Since, again, I’m assuming that is what I’m being accused of. Your ask was a bit vague, nonny. Please work on your specificity next time.) 

Well, what are her feelings? Oh yeah. She’s very upset about being forcibly married to Tyrion after spending months as a prisoner of war. What a baby. 

What are her actions? Minimizing Garlan and Leonette’s concern for her well-being by putting on a brave face and telling them she is well. Jerk.

What was my conclusion? Let me just quote myself: 

I’m sorry, but who reads passages like this and thinks, “ugh, Sansa…what a conniving villain”. I re-read the chapter where Sansa is married to Tyrion and the whole thing makes me want to cry. Also, all the kudos to Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, Leonette for making an effort to comfort a traumatized child.

I don’t know, nonny.

 If you want to use that post to write an essay about how Sansa’s courtesy is actually a cover for her great crimes of poisoning Sweetrobin and killing Mycah...by all means go for it. 

Now on to my boy, Jon. Let the evidence of favoritism commence!

I’ve definitely written more about our sad bastard in the North than I’ve written about Sansa, so I’m sure we’ll find some fruitful returns on your accusation here. 

How has one currently dead Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch fared beneath my pen? 

Well, there is the post that I cannot find because Tumblr is a black hole and I’m bad at tagging, where, if I remember correctly, I said I’d never forgive Jon Snow for what he did to Gilly and her baby.

But, without evidence, I suppose that isn’t admissable in a court of fandom discourse, is it? 

All is not lost dear nonny. Do not fear. I apparently can’t shut up about the topic. 

First, I have this ask where I must totally defend Jon because he’s obviously my fave, right? Wrong. I accuse him of hubris and abuse of power. 

Regardless of his noble intentions with the baby swap, Jon displays a lot of hubris in thinking that he can control what happens to either child afterwards, that the greatest danger is Mel’s zealotry, and that his intentions make his actions excusable. I think he is wrong on all three counts.

He abuses his power over Gilly and meddles in a situation he has no authority over because he knows he has no such power over Stannis or Mel.

Hm.

I also used this ask, about a totally different subject, to wax on about the same topic, because as I said, I can’t shut up about it (or Daario). Surely, in this one, I talk about how flawless and awesome Jon is, right? 

Oh yeah, I call him an utter ass, a potato, a manipulative little shithead, and a coward. 

But please, go on about how I give Jon a free pass. 

I’m bored now, nonny, but if you want to make this interesting with an actual rebuttal essay, where you point out all the times I’ve forgiven Jon for his misdeeds because of his lonely bastard vibes and plain-at-best looks, I’ve made the endeavor easier for you by linking out to my other mentions of Jon Snow. 

Have at them. 

Jon and Dany foil ask

What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

Qhorin and Jon by the fire

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. I and it doesn’t even mention Daario

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. II - Let’s Build a Fire & Make Speeches!

Chispas Does a Meta, Pt. III - Murders & Miracles! Yay!

Thanks, I guess, for giving me an excuse to make a master post linking to my “metas” about Jon and Sansa. If you choose to return, please bring me something more interesting to chew on. I bore easily, but love to play. 

[istumpysk]

omg can you explain me why there is a conversation around about sansa & motherhood?? like i've seen some sansa antis talking about how sansa would be such a bad mother and i've seen as well a sansa stan talking about this topic and OMG 😭 sansa is 13 years old and people are already discussing if she will be or not a good mother. like, she's 13yo she - obviously - will commit mistakes when it's come to child because she - herself - is a child LOL

I totally get it, anon. It's icky, uncomfortable, and you have every right to hate it.

Unfortunately George has backed himself into a corner, and he's committed to executing storylines originally meant for a 19-year-old Sansa.

I presume the majority of us hate the idea of her having a child at 14, but are resigned to the fact that it's likely to happen. She is the future matriarch of House Stark, and there’s a lot of evidence that suggests it won’t be saved for the epilogue. :\

[buttercuparry]

Every essay from a Sansa Stan about the Trident incident starts with: The adults are at fault/Cersei is at fault/Joff is at fault!! No way can anyone blame Sansa...I mean the girls!! No one should blame Sansa....and Arya.

And they end with the conclusion...it is the adults! The adults!! And yeah honestly?

That's fair.

But what they do between the beginning and the end is lose me with their "well if you gotta blame someone...then that should be Arya because she chose not to maintain the class divide...doesn't she know how dangerous it is for a highborn to befriend a commoner???" And I am like:

(Translation: this is shit)

They are like (and I am paraprashing because more or less that's what they say): the rules are there to keep everyone safe

?!?!?!

No...no they are not. Do you not see the real world around you???? The class division is for the rich and the rich only. So that they do not have to deal with us. What even are you...ahsjfkgkkl

You saying at one point that it is not Sansa's fault or Arya's fault and then bending back, contorting and going: well actually if you have to blame the girls...there's Arya...

Like how?! Why?!!!? How did you just do a 360?

Arya not following the "rules" isn't the cause of Mycah's death! Her not being classist is not the reason Mycah died. Joffrey's lack of empathy, his total disregard for everyone and assurance of the power he holds is the cause of Mycah's death. And yeah Cersei just reinforced his "invincibility" by calling for Lady's death.

Like Arya being classist would not solve anything. Rather she would be adding another name to the list of highborns who do not give a shit about what happens to the smallfolks. Another one who cares not if the people go hungry in the middle of the war. Another one who won't bat an eyelash while supping on swan while the people outside eat rat's meat. Another one who would brush off a death and just gush about some Tourney. In fact, horrifyingly so as Arya observes...none from the Stark household, be it a family member, a daughter of a minor house, or an employee cared about Mycah's death. Because how important is a butcher's boy, right? So what if he was cut into pieces?? That's just another topic of gossip soon to be forgotten in favour of a glorious tourney.

Like what the hell people??? Did you all not read those lines?!

Also just tell me one thing. Suppose during the war, a lord decided to give shelter to his people because the Lannisters were burning everything. Should his fort fall...would you all be like: well he should have maintained his class. Now every commoner would die because of him. Is that how you all would react if this happened? Or would you have been like: the lannister soldiers are the murderers. The war is a tragedy that ravages all. That it is a tragedy that the Lannisters or other highborns (Stark/tyrells/baratheons) cannot be held accountable. Somehow I think you people would sing a different tune than the one you are used to taking with Arya.

And god does it show.

So yeah...I would like to end with: you people are right. The girls are not to blame for the Trident incident. And by "girls" I do wholeheartedly include Arya in reference to the term.

[weirwoodking]

I have a genuin question but do you think that Sansa will become Queen in the North? I'm not sure anymore what her endgame will be in the books (the show doesn't count for me)

This is kind of a… sensitive topic, because there are certain people who will call you “anti-Sansa” if you answer anything less than “absolutely” to this question. The only reason this is a touchy conversation in the first place is because of the show.

So… I have not seen the final three episodes of the show. I only found out about the endings through other sources. The show doesn’t count for me either. None of the show endings for the characters made sense.

I dislike all of the show characters, and that includes Show!Sansa. I don’t like the storyline (something I share with GRRM), I don’t like the personality, I don’t like the costuming, I don’t like the way the actress was directed, I don’t like the ending. I hate how people say that “Sansa got the only good ending”. ?????? That ending is a horrible ending for Sansa. Alone in Winterfell, completely separate from her family? How the fuck is that a good ending? No. “Sansa becoming Queen in the North no matter what” is not the only “good ending” for her. I talked about this here.

And this isn’t to say I think it’s impossible for Sansa to end the story as QitN, I just think it’s improbable. Based on the current text, this is my ranking for who’s most likely to be ruling Winterfell/House Stark at the end of the story:

1. Bran (Will most likely be king, but we don’t know what exactly that means. What state will Westeros be in after the Long Night? I talk about that here.)

If (and that’s a big if) there is a separate leader of House Stark who isn’t Bran:

2. Arya (Already has an extensive amount of “leader of wolves”/”leader of the pack” symbolism. Her direwolf is named for Nymeria, a famous queen. Arya, through her wolf Nymeria, is a “queen of wolves”.)

3. Rickon (Bran’s heir, next male in line.)

4. Sansa (Eldest trueborn child. Has a line that people believe is foreshadowing for her show ending happening in the books.)

5. Jon (Named by Robb as his heir, although the will was written under the belief that Bran, Rickon, and Arya were dead. But just don’t think it would fit his story.)

(Also, we could definitely see a Pevensie siblings style ending, where they are all the Lords and Ladies/Princes and Princesses. Wish more people would talk about that. Could definitely see GRRM being inspired by that.)

So, the line that people refer to the most for “Sansa will be queen” theories is this:

"The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. (Sansa VI, ACOK)

It bothers me because people tend to ignore the real importance of that line, and what it’s actually saying about Sansa as a character, as a person. The purpose of that line is not to “foreshadow that Sansa will definitely be queen”. The line ties into how Sansa believes “everyone wants to be loved”, and is hopeful in love, despite everything she’s gone through. It shows that Sansa believes more in the power of love than in the power of fear. She is not letting herself be influenced by what Cersei is trying to teach her. She doesn’t want to be like Cersei.

Which is not something that show!Sansa does. It’s been a long time since I saw the show, but a moment that sticks out in my head is where show!Sansa tells show!Jon that wildlings “have to fight for them because they owe Jon their lives”.

……..

Jon’s plot in ADWD involves him becoming the leader of the wildlings over time, as he earns their trust and support. He becomes their leader at the end of Jon XIII because they follow the man, and he has proved himself worthy. Not because they “owe” him something. Show!Sansa uses fear rather than love to secure loyalty. “You owe me your loyalty” rather than “I’ll earn your loyalty.”

Show!Sansa is a completely different character than Sansa Stark from A Song of Ice and Fire. Show!Sansa became the QitN, and that means absolutely nothing for the real Sansa.

Basically, I, as a book fan, feel no obligation to say that Sansa will be Queen in the North just because I want to stay on good graces with toxic show stans.

And no, I do not predict that Sansa will end the series as the Queen in the North. That doesn’t mean I’m against it, it just means I don’t see it happening. And if the show had never happened, this question would not be nearly as controversial as it is. Like, I feel the same way about saying “Sansa won’t be queen” as I do about saying “Rickon won’t die” or “Jon won’t be exiled beyond the wall” or “Cersei won’t be killed by a brick”.

TL;DR: I never thought about Sansa being queen until season 8 happened and everyone made it a debate. I don’t think she’ll be queen, the books don’t give me that implication.

(Also… Sansa would still be royalty, btw, she’d still be a princess. I don’t know why people treat it like she’d be a nobody if she isn’t queen at the end. She’s still a goddamn princess. She’d still be wearing a crown.)

[dreadwulf]

I know a lot of Jaime stans don’t think Bran is particularly relevant to Jaime’s redemption arc since he already paid karmically for it, that Jaime’s redemption is in living a better life, that getting forgiveness or scorn from Bran & the remaining Starks would give too much of a definitive answer to if a person can be redeemed, and Bran’s story is headed in a completely different direction. However, I would feel weird if there isn’t some kind of second meeting or closure between the two since

Jaime pushing Bran was one of the precipitating events of the War of the Five Kings and both of their arcs arguably began with crippling. Maybe I want it because I’m intrigued by symmetry, I love stories of forgiveness, maybe because I feel a lot of Jaime’s redemption must be a failure comes from ppl who are unable to forgive him for Bran (which fair, but don’t pretend the redemption arc isn’t there. Someone said it well on Twitter that there would be a lot less denial over the redemption arc or that Jaime’s doomed to failure if the Valonqar prophecy wasn’t there). What do you think? What would you want to see out of a Bran and Jaime interaction? Am I nuts for wanting this?

I think it would be a pretty definitive capper on whether or not we’re supposed to consider Jaime redeemed if Bran meets him and says he’s forgiven, and for that reason I doubt GRRM will explicitly do it. 

Note here that as far as prognosticating for Jaime according to the fandom you have two choices - either the Valonqar prophecy refers to Jaime and he’s going to go back to King’s Landing and commit murder-suicide, or his weirwood dream comes true and he goes North to fight the Others with Brienne. Due to the timing required for Jaime to kill Cersei before someone else can, these are mutually exclusive. Now, since the weirwood dream pretty clearly puts Jaime and Brienne fighting wights together, and Valonqar prophecy could be referring to someone else entirely, the choice for me is pretty clear. BUT these are pretty literal reads of both bits of foreshadowing and quite possibly wrong. Jaime could for example kill Cersei to save King’s Landing and live afterwards. The weirwood dream could be metaphorical and not a prophecy. Anyway my point here is that these two bits of prophecy map pretty clearly onto Team Redemption Arc versus Team Failed Redemption Arc. The Valonqar prophecy is a pretty convenient plot point for those who don’t want to see Jaime be forgiven and keeps him well away from Bran, who in their view is the only person who can give him forgiveness.

I sort of resist this. I don’t think think a redemption arc requires Bran, and I also don’t think we’re seeing a traditional villian-to-hero redemption arc. Jaime was never a traditional villian, for one thing. He’s somewhere in the middle and always has been. He is someone who has done great AND terrible things, and has the capability to do either in the future. He’s on the precipice which is what makes him fascinating. I think ultimately he will undergo tremendous personal change and will accomplish some important things for humankind in the next War for the Dawn, and I think it will be ultimately up to the reader whether that earns him forgiveness for his earlier sins. For the readers, the story arc is when someone could or should be forgiven. Which means Bran telling us whether or not we should forgive him would be cheating, and I also don’t think Bran will consider it relevant in his new role in the story.

I do think a final scene is called for, but that could work out a lot of ways. If Jaime does die at some point, I would not be at all surprised if he becomes aware that Bran is watching it happen. That’s not an explicit meeting, but it would be a full circle kind of moment. Jaime lying on the ground broken and Bran looking down on him. That’s the sort of thing I’m expecting.

I think what a lot of readers are waiting for is Jaime to show some regret. He’s already suffered the karmic retribution of the loss of his hand, and he directly refers to it as the hand he pushed Bran with. But he didn’t beg anyone for forgiveness or angst about it at length, so they consider his punishment unfinished. The thing is, due to Jaime’s peculiar psychology, it would be out of character for him to beg forgiveness for anything. If you’re paying attention to his chapters you do know he regrets pushing Bran, but he doesn’t spend a lot of time angsting about it because he tends to put those things away and not think about them. What those readers need is an opportunity for someone to confront him with it in a way he cannot avoid, and see him express remorse. 

Brienne already accepts him for all that he is and she won’t be the one to confront him with this, but she might lead him to it. If there is a situation where SHE is being made to suffer for Jaime’s sins, I think that would provide what those readers are waiting for. Because Jaime’s not going to plead on his own behalf, or ask for anything he doesn’t deserve, but Brienne? If Stoneheart or Sansa or some other Stark is passing judgment on Brienne for being associated with him, I think he’d have a lot of remorse for that. I think that would make a lot of his regrets come spilling out, because it’s one thing if he’s being punished but Brienne doesn’t deserve to suffer. In that circumstance and possibly only that one, I could see him pleading with a Stark for forgiveness.

But for that note of ambiguity, I don’t think that scene will happen with Bran.

(Sorry this is all over the place. It’s a big topic! And I didn’t even answer your question - no, I understand why people want Bran and Jaime to actually meet and talk. I’m just not sure it’s going to happen. I think the story will provide the resolution in another way.)

[queenaryastark]

George RR Martin: dragons are weapons of mass destruction, they're symbols of destruction and not of rebuilding, it's why the targaryens lost their power because their rule was built on fear and when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I Yall: i cant read suddenly i dont know

LMAO! I can’t even call that paraphrasing since this jumble of out of context gibberish completely misinterprets GRRM’s words and intent. 

First off, no one said dragons weren’t weapons of mass destruction. Them being powerful weapons is pretty obvious. Them being weapons does not erase the violence and cruelty of characters who do not have them. The mass destruction the Starks and Lannisters have wrought against the Riverlands and Westerlands was done without the aid of dragons. So was the mass destruction the Greyjoys and Boltons wrought on the North. The Tyrells were able to commit mass murder by cutting off food supplies, which led to mass starvation, which was their specific intent. 

Dragons are dangerous. Obviously. So are people, as George R. R. Martin goes out of his way to tell us in every chapter of his work. The man literally depicts Robb, Stannis, Balon, and Joffrey as equally as violent toward the common people and the land of Westeros. He even gives Dany this metaphoric image of the four of them:

“In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.” -- A Clash Of Kings

And that is far from the only time he frames them in an equally negative light given their level of mass destruction.

when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons

You think Dany should read Fire and Blood? I agree. I hope she gets a copy once she arrives to save Westeros from the warlords, opportunistic politicians, and the Others. Though you should probably try to find someone who can read it to you and explain what all the big words mean. If you look in that book, you will see that the Targaryens became extremely popular and loved. They decreased the amount of war and destruction, they streamlined the laws, they established roads, and they removed a couple of the abuses that were the norm. They were far from perfect. But in that imperfection, Dany could learn from them too. 

As for a “small spark” causing a rebellion as soon as they didn’t have dragons... *sighs* If you don’t know about a topic, that’s fine. Not everyone can be an expert on every topic. But you Sansa stans (yes I know you’re a Sansa stan and you probably have that hideous image of ST with her trademark vacant expression and that ugly ferret crown as your icon) should actually fact check yourselves before trying and failing to present yourselves as an authority on anything. The last dragon died in 153 AC. The Targaryens were overthrown in 283 AC. Even before 153 AC, the dragons that lived either weren’t under their control, were pretty young, or were deformed. In other words, they continued to rule Westeros without dragons for a significant amount of time. In that time, not only did they rule, but they were able to bring Dorne into the realm peacefully. 

Even the wars they had were far fewer than the amount of constant wars that happened while the kingdoms were separate. The Blackfyre Rebellions were sparked by Westerosi racism and xenophobia against the Dornish, as well as the greed and opportunism from the Andal/First Men supporters of the Blackfyre claimant. Notice how in those rebellions the people of Westeros supported either the Targaryens or the Targaryen blooded Blackfyres? No matter which side the lords took, they were supporting a Targaryen because they support that family. Like in real life civil wars, they just supported different members of that same royal line. It wasn’t because they feared them. They wanted their rule. They just wanted the rule of a specific claimant over another based on their own values or what they thought they could gain from a change in Targaryen leadership.

Even with the Baratheon rebellions, they were still Targaryen blooded claimants. With Lyonel Baratheon, he felt his family was insulted when an engagement between the crown prince and his daughter was broken so the prince could marry a peasant. This might seem like a “small spark”, but this would have been considered hugely offensive by the classist nobility. Note how this rebellion was resolved incredibly easily to the point where I don’t even think it warrants being labeled an actual rebellion. It seems more like it was set up for the next Baratheon rebellion since it resulted in that House gaining even more Targaryen blood than it already had. That’s the thing, the nobility wanted their children to marry Targaryens. Doesn’t sound very fearful, does it?

Robert’s Rebellion wasn’t set off by a “small spark”. The kidnapping and rape of the Lord of Winterfell’s daughter and the betrothed of the Lord of Storm’s End is not insignificant. It also didn’t set off the rebellion. The murders of multiple lords and their heirs is also not a small thing. It didn’t set off the rebellion either. What set it off was the combination of those two events with the demand for the executions of the new Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Storm’s End. Those events taken separately are not small sparks and they certainly aren’t small when put together. It took something HUGE to make a big part of the realm turn on the Targaryens. Even still, the rebels were in the minority since most of the other regions either stayed out of the conflict waiting to see how it played out or stayed loyal to the Targaryens. If Tywin had continued to stay out of the conflict, the Rebellion could have lasted indefinitely with either side winning since the Crown’s forces outnumbered them and occupied the Stormlands. 

You also seem to miss the fact that quite a few people in Westeros are still Targaryen Loyalists and want to restore them to the throne. You even miss the fact that Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen’s claim comes from their Targaryen blood. 

So no, the Targaryen rule was not based purely on fear. They clearly retained loyalty and love without the benefit of dragons as weapons.

daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I

It’s funny how you can try to quote the book while having no understanding of the passage you’re quoting. Here’s the paragraph you’re referring to:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought.Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?I am the blood of the dragon, she thought.If they are monsters, so am I. -- ADWD

This takes place in Dany’s second chapter of A Dance With Dragons after she has captured and chained two of her dragons and failed to capture the third. Why is she trying to chain them? Because Drogon killed one (1) child. That’s right. Not only is Dany compensating the people for the sheep her dragons were eating. She has no tolerance for them killing innocents. The quote above is not her glorying in the destructive power of the dragons. Nor is she going around without an ounce of guilt for terrorizing, maiming, and murdering innocents the way Robb, Balon, Stannis, Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, and every other leader in Westeros does. That is what this passage is PROVING. Seriously, using the “If they are monsters, so am I” quote is proving that Dany has guilt over the life her dragon has taken and that she has taken steps to prevent that from happening again. Compare that to Tyrion’s complete lack of care when it comes to the mass murder his family is causing:

"A lordling down from the Trident, says your father's men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants."

"I believe they call that war." -- Tyrion, ACOK

While Dany is trying to preserve lives, the mass murdering leaders of Westeros see murder and rape as the norm and completely acceptable. Even the noble Robb Stark tried to move the carnage that he and Tywin were inflicting on the Riverlands into the Westerlands and was upset that his plan to do so was partly thwarted by Edmure. His issue wasn’t with the common people suffering and dying. He just wanted the suffering and dying to happen to the common people of the Westerlands (the ones who hadn’t been forced into service as arrow fodder by the Lannisters yet) instead. Yet, you’re trying to use Dany’s guilt at one (1) child being killed by her dragon as proof of...something?

As for Dany not planting trees, yes, she fears that’s something Targaryens can’t do. But the text shows that her ancestors could and did. Dany is also planting trees in ADWD and was in the process of making Vaes Tolorro bloom in ACOK before she was invited to Qarth. The Golden Company (who wants to put her and Aegon on the Iron Throne as a pair) are even upset because they think she’s only interested in planting trees in Meereen.

When analyzing a literary work you have to understand that what the characters fear and the guilt they feel are not signs of their permanent situations. They’re signs of their internal obstacles that will be overcome in their arcs. Dany fears her dragons and fears herself and fears that she won’t be able to achieve peace and positive societal growth. Its good that she fears these things because this shows she acknowledges these issues so they can be overcome. The current Westeros leadership don’t see the issue in their mass murdering, which is an issue all on it’s own. 

Its alright if this series is above your comprehension level. There are books out there for you to read that are better suited for your capabilities, like Hop on Pop or Green Eggs and Ham. It’s probably best if you stick to those.

[alinaastarkov]

why do you and arya stans care so much if sansa fans think sansa will become queen in the north? no one writes essays on why bran won't become kitn, why rickon won't become kitn, why arya won't become qitn... you people are obsessed lmao! i don't get why people speculating on the future of their favorite character affect you all so much

They literally write essays on why Arya and Bran won’t be king or queen all the time, I’ve seen my fair share of “Rickon is going to die” metas too, so we can file this under “do your research before you start spouting nonsense in my inbox next time”. Stansas write essay upon essay about Bran and Rickon dying, Bran giving up his title. Arya’s ending being the same as the show, all so Sansa can be queen in their minds when someone points out to them that all the other Starks have better claims than her. Plus, we have to battle against the show’s ending when Stansas don’t have to. Even if they don’t write essays, they do come onto other people’s posts and inboxes to tell us all of this, just like you’re doing right now. Most of what we say on the topic is defending our favourite characters from their toxic nonsense. When people speculating on the future of their favourite character involves bashing and discrediting other characters, and requires they say it directly to people that don’t agree with them, then you’re goddamn right it’s gonna affect me. As soon as they stay in their lanes, then I’ll stop talking about it. Until then, sue me 🤷‍♀️

[elegantwoes]

Arya stans should stan Sansa if they want Arya to have every part of her arc. Now suddenly Arya's more "naturally" feminine than Sansa, is actually more beautiful, has a romantic arc (lol at this one), will become a queen and not a warrior one but a lady queen (yep training to be one with assassins), is more maternal (who cares for Sansa being a mother to her 8 yr old cousin or actually wishing for kids), and is politically more important (Sansa's betrothals or her training, what's that?)

I know I should find this situation amusing, and part of me genuinely does, but at the same time I am also angry. In the past nine years I have been part of the ASOIAF/GOT I saw how Arya Stans teared Sansa apart for everything. Her beauty: to them the only good thing about her was how beautiful she was, beyond that, Sansa was nothing. Her desire for romance, marriage and children: this one I remember vividly. Years ago on the Westeros.org site there was this discussion about what kind job would the ASOIAF characters have, and somehow the topic stumbled unto Sansa and how unambitious she would be in a modern setting. Girls like Sansa end up as a pathetic housewife whereas girls like Arya will take over the world by going into the STEM field and have a career. I got so angry reading that thread. I had to take a step back from the fandom and that site for at least a couple weeks after that. Her political arc: to them Sansa's arc was boring. Nothing interesting ever happens with Sansa. Why can't she go on exciting adventures like Arya?

To see them suddenly respond like this is mind blowing. They simple can't see Sansa being celebrated for traits and skills that Arya doesn't have. To them Arya must be superior than Sansa in everything. It doesn't matter if Arya's characterization as whole is destroyed in the process. They don't care or value Arya as an individual character. To them loving Arya means hating Sansa. Arya Stark doesn't deserve fans like these. She deserves better fans.

[tgrlmls]

WHY HER?

Game of Thrones, some over-analyzing scenes, characters and ships

Alright then…

I know that I am a little late to comment on the hot topic that was the Game of Thrones series finale extravaganza and anything that is “jonsa”. I have been very angry about the last two seasons for a long time, but it looked like everyone has said what needs to be said one way or another. But I love analyzing and I have loved and loved this show and its characters for so long I have the right to over-analyze it to hell… ok? Good.

So… let’s go to my beginnings. GOT shippervise beginnings. I have been waiting since Season 1 for Jon and Deanerys to meet. I was sure their story arcs would come together ok? And Kit and Emilia had some really cute pictures that were taken for magazines etc. Fan arts, theories, anything jonerys, I was all into them. Incest was the only thing that kept me openly shipping jonerys but I was intrigued and I was ready to accept that “well… they don’t know they are aunt and nephew…maybe that will cause them to be star-crossed lovers? The tragic but beautiful love story? Or maybe knowing the Targeryen traditions they will say “you know what? Never mind that related thing bygones “and be a power couple? I was open to all options.

Then came season 6 episode 4… THE REUNION…of Jon and Sansa…what? That scene was so beautifully acted and shot and the music oh my god feelings. But I said to myself that is sibling love. It is normal they have both been through a lot. It was poetic, in a platonic way. But that scene and a lot of scenes that season between them were so very well done. I found myself saying “oh please don’t ruin this by making Sansa trust Littlefinger and wanting more power please.” To their credit…they didn’t. But they toyed with this idea too much too long for my taste. Anyway, yay jonsa have platonic relationship and some Starks are content for a change so I was happy. But the big thing was coming right? Jon and Dany.

Then came season 7. Started nice enough. I liked the differences between Jon and Dany and their first encounter. Dany was interested that was obvious. She was curious about Jon. Jon was not on his knees by her beauty or her dragons. BUT then she kept him as a prisoner…and the annoying “bend the knee” scenes came. I mean this woman accepted Iron Islands to be independent over a conversation. And she was not helping thousands of people, unless they bend the knee. What was “Breaking the Wheel” exactly? That is a question that I still can’t find the answer to. Dany wanted to break the Wheel of great houses ruling the people, by coming there demanding they bend the knee to HER because SHE IS FROM A GREAT HOUSE?

Ok that is for another discussion but all these things and lack of emotion for me in Jon and Dany scenes made me a Jonsa shipper in season 8. And lack of wit and general lack of IQ from other characters like Tyrion made me a big Sansa stan. My girl was wise. She was right. But what broke my heart the most was the treatment of Jon.

My Jon, had a character. He was a leader. He didn’t want it, but he was good at it. He was a natural. He always tried to do what was right, by his conscience. My Jon, even if he was head over the heels in love with a woman would not be a doormat. He would not sit idly by when  anyone is being burned alive. He was honarable, he was brave, he was just. He made mistakes, he failed but his intentions were always for the best. He left the woman he loved before because he was trying to do the right thing. And it was the right thing.

Anyway these issues aside, there are very interesting dialogues and acting choices in season 8 that does not make sense with what the writers were trying to sell us. And many scenes were analyzed in many great tumblr posts, probably this one had been too, but if I may, I want to over-analyze and ask my questions too.

That scene will be the “Why her?” scene or “Sansa betrays Jon’s trust and tells Tyrion his secret” scene and I can’t believe how the latter discussion can even be an issue with the way this scene was acted and shot.

So it begins “WHY HER?”

Let’s start with the beginning of the scene, shall we? Jon is leaving with Dany literally going to war, Tyrion -as it seems- seeks and finds Sansa, but she is so distracted and lost in her thoughts she doesn’t have have time for small talk she gets right to the point “Why HER?”

A very important thing to note here is that this is happenning very soon after Sansa learns that Jon is not her half-brother but her cousin. Of course we didn’t see her or Arya’s reaction to this. Hell we didn’t even properly see how Jon himself feels about this. Why would we care about these characters we loved for years learning such an impactful truth right? Sarcasm on. I mean they learn that truth right after they say they only need each other, we see the pack all together one last time and the scene cuts. Ok, sure!

But where I am getting at is that these characters are not robots and of course this information has someway affected them.

Sansa is watching the dragons all mighty powerful and scary here. But she is not afraid. She seems conflicted, and asks Tyrion why he is following Dany. She is trying to understand why Jon is following her as well maybe. Because Jon never gave her, or any of the Starks or the Northmen for that matter any reason other than Dany helped them with the Army of the Dead. Yes, but that doesn’t mean she’ll be a good queen. She didn’t help them because she is a great leader who cares about them and help them survive. No.

Tyrion:She loves your brother

Sansa:That doesn’t mean she’ll be a good queen

That is the thing that must be bothering actually. She agreed to help the North because she loves Jon.

And if it were not Jon and someone she wouldn’t fall for, she was going to refuse to help until that person bent the knee. Or maybe even after that. But again that was the stupidity of Season 7. So moving on to the scene at hand again,

Sansa looks sad here. Not plotting, not scheming, not angry…sad.

Tyrion: You seem determined to dislike her.

Yes she does and why is that? What reason Sansa Stark has to dislike Dany? Well, she made them bend the knee and took their independence? But that aside why is Tyrion and Jon are determined to like her? We will get to that in this same scene.

Tyrion talks about how a peaceful relations between North and the Iron Throne would be best for the people.

 Sansa: Jon will be Warden of the North so good relationship seems likely.

 She cuts Tyrion’s sentence as it looks like the “good relationships” part has triggered her somehow.

Tyrion stops and looks the other way almost apologetically

 Tyrion:I don’t expect him to spend much time here going forward…

 And Sansa cuts him again, more triggered and even more irritated than before

Sansa:Well I suppose it’s up to him.

Ok this one is really interesting, Sansa is very irritated about the relationship of Jon and Dany, this irritation right here is not about the North. She is angry at Jon. But this one, this anger right here is not because independence or anything political.

She says it’s up to him. Well the way the scene was acted,really leans into Sansa being jealous about Jon and Dany. She knows what Tyrion is implying. Jon will be in King’s Landing with Dany because of their relationship, the North and the IT will be in good relations because of that said relationship.

Sansa is very disturbed. It catches Tyrion’s attention, he asks her if she is alright, I mean look at her. She is on the verge of tears.

Many people argued Tyrion misreads this, I am not sure, it is possible but it also feels like he is somehow trying to console her, telling her she will be the real power in the North, that it is her word he is seeking of in this arrangements. He is trying to make sure Sansa has accepted these terms. BUT it is not for Dany’s claim. Tyrion is not afraid Sansa will oppose Dany and Dany will lose supporters. No he is afraid but for other reasons. Which we will come to.

Even Sansa realizes this, and asks him why he is concerned. Dany has everything right now.

She still has her armies, the northern armies, her dragons ...and JON. 

Tyrion: She is your queen too!

Tyrion: You don’t have to be her friend, but why provoke her? How is that in the best interest of your family or the North..

Sansa: You’re afraid of her.

Tyrion is afraid. For Sansa, for the Starks. This is the first time Sansa realizes even the supporters of Dany are afraid of what she is capable of.

She comes clean to Tyrion, tells him what’s really bothering her.

Sansa: I don’t want Jon to go down there…the men in my family don’t do well in the Capital.

While it is true that North men were not able to fight with the schemings of southron Capital. The bigger part in this is “Sansa doesn’t want Jon to go.” She fears for his safety. He is going to the Dragon Queen’s war. It is dangerous. Cersei is dangerous. Dany is dangerous. And Jon is a big player in this game even if he doesn’t want to. He was born into this. Even if he was Ned Stark’s bastard he was still important he was made The King in the North, of course he was still a big player even after he bent the knee. But there was more. Jon was not a big piece in this game. He was the BIGGEST because of the truth of his lineage. So when Tyrion unknowingly brings this up, Sansa gets that there are even bigger things at stake here.

She doesn’t want Jon to leave but there is also something more on the line here. Jon is the true heir. Her expression is full of worry and sadness as she turns her head looking away.

Tyrion notices this of course asks her if she is alright. But he doesn’t get it. He starts to tell her about how he believes in Dany, trying to convince Sansa or maybe himself. Because how can you possibly believe in someone making the World a better place, with constantly fearing she will snap and burn people for some reason that is justified in her head at the same time?

She thinks about her options. She KNOWS this game, she saw first-hand. She lived the ramifications “when you play the game of thrones you win or you die” 

And she decides to play the game actively. Trying to keep this secret was not going to protect Jon. Her father tried it. But Jon was sent to the Night’s Watch eventually. Now he holds so much importance even without this secret. And more importantly. Dany knows the secret. Her hand, Tyrion is even afraid of her, warning Sansa not to oppose her. How long will she be kept from unleashing her anger. How long till before someone calls Jon a King? How long till Jon opposes Dany because of something he doesn’t agree. We know Jon. Sansa knows Jon. (I mean real Jon, until he became a doormat, he must be there somewhere) trying to be passive will not have. They are in this game whether they wanted it or not. Ned tried to refuse to be in, he lost his life for it. His family almost lost everything. Jon tried to refuse to take a part of it but anywhere he went, anthing he did people followed him, chose him, put him in the game all the time. There is no middle ground.

Yes she betrays her word. She swore an oath and she broke it. Because “what is honor compared to a woman’s love” Or a man’s for that matter.

[annes-andromeda]

What do you think of Theonsa? Since I feel it is nearly as bad as Jonsa in devaluing the importance of adopted sibling relationships and ended up catching flack for making a post about how shipping Sansa with her adopted brothers was sad.

Firstly, just wanna let you know that I love getting asks from you and all of them are valid. They also give me stuff to do and are just overall fun so thanks!

Well, to be honest, I’m actually ok with Theonsa. It’s never really specified that Theon was actually adopted into the Stark family, but more or less he grew up with them. It’s fine if Theon saw people like Ned and Robb as a father/brother figure. That doesn’t mean they were actually his family, he just thought of them as such.

There’s even a point in the books where Theon said that he thought he’d marry Sansa one day. While I do lean more towards Sanrion (a much more controversial ship than Theonsa tbh), I don’t see the harm of Sansa being shipped with Theon.

And Jonsas can’t really talk cause the moment that Theon reunited with Sansa, some of them started making posts hating on the ship and saying that Jonsa is the only ship endgame for her that makes sense. And when the Sanrion crypt scene came out, they did the exact same thing. They go on to say how Theonsa and Jonerys are incest but then go ahead and try to justify Jonsa. The hypocrisy, I swear.

So, I wouldn’t worry about them too much. While I enjoy their hot takes on Danielle and Joneriice, they can be just as delusional and hypocritical as the Jonerys and Dany stans. I refuse to believe some of them have been shipping Jonsa since the books. With Jonerys, sure, but Jonsa? No way in hell.

Sorry if this got off topic, but I went off a little bit. And hey, you’re allowed to have an opinion! If you don’t like it, that’s totally ok!

Thanks for the ask!