#vetinari for democracy

[pratchettquotes]

"One has to move with the times, of course," said the Patrician, shaking his head.

"We tend not to, over the road," said Ridcully. "It only encourages them."

"People do not understand the limits of tyranny," said Vetinari, as if talking to himself. "They think that because I can do what I like I can do what I like. A moment's thought reveals, of course, that this cannot be so."

"Oh, it is the same with magic," said the Archchancellor. "If you flash spells around like there's no tomorrow, there's a good chance that there won't be."

Terry Pratchett, Unseen Academicals

[skyofdarkmatter42]

Ok I feel the need to give y'all my full take on ankh morpork future patrician and city watch commander so here we go

Vetinari retires not when he feels it's right for him, but when he knows it's right for the city. He fakes his own death and goes to stay in Uberwald to hang with lady margolotta, Drumknott comes with him. The only other person who knows for sure that he's still alive is Leonard, who gets a proper goodbye and an invitation to come with (haven't decided if he takes it or not). Moist and Vimes strongly suspect.

Vetinari leaves Moist in a position of power and he succeeds him, though perhaps not quite as patrician but in a newly presented process more similar to democracy. Vetinari has been planning this and only leaves when he knows for sure Moist has the elections secured, which isn't that hard to achieve but is nevertheless hindered by some wild shit because this is ankh morpork after all.

Vimes finally gives in to old age and resigns when he realizes he truly and honestly cannot give chase anymore. Angua becomes Commander of the watch. Carrot remains in pretty much the same position, helping her carry the load, it takes her way too much effort to convince him to not call her Commander or Sir. The two have dinner with the Vimes family quite often, and Vimes is still much too heavily involved in watch business for someone who's retired, but he knows it's in good hands.

At some point Vimes visits Uberwald on a diplomatic mission, he may not be commander but he's still a duke. He's always suspected, and sure enough Vetinari shows up for what is perhaps their last conversation. He asks how Moist is doing. "He drives Angua up the damn wall" Vimes says, "So just right by your book, I reckon"

[toddchavezwatchescartoons]

My toxic trait is that despite being a strong believer in egalitarianism and the rule of law irl, I really like when fictional despots like Lord Vetinari or Princess Bubblegum turn to the villain and say “this isn’t a democracy you absolute fucking imbecile.”

[helenvader]

Two quotes about darling Havelock from Unseen Academicals. First is partially hilarious and partially "he's amazing". The second is all "he's amazing".

And were I not disqualified, I would most definitely vote for him! Because, well, he IS amazing.

1.

Technically, the city of Ankh-Morpork is a Tyranny, which is not always the same thing as a monarchy, and in fact even the post of Tyrant has been somewhat redefined by the incumbent, Lord Vetinari, as the only form of democracy that works. Everyone is entitled to vote, unless disqualified by reason of age or not being Lord Vetinari.

And yet it does work. This has annoyed a number of people who feel, somehow, that it should not, and who want a monarch instead, thus replacing a man who has achieved his position by cunning, a deep understanding of the realities of the human psyche, breathtaking diplomacy, a certain prowess with the stiletto dagger, and, all agree, a mind like a finely balanced circular saw, with a man who has got there by being born.

2.

‘And he is a Tyrant even if he has developed tyranny to such a point of metaphysical perfection that it is a dream rather than a force. He does not have to listen to you, you see. He doesn’t even have to listen to me. He listens to the city. I don’t know how he does, but he does. And he plays it like a violin’ – Ridcully paused, then went on – ‘or like the most complicated game you can imagine. The city works, not perfectly, but better than it has ever done.’

[virovac]

Honestly I hope any seeking to be successors of Pratchett can avoid his problem of making authoritarianism look too much like the best form of government (this is a side effect of Vetinari being just too fun to write)

a good way to handle this would be to remember the saying “democracy is the worst form of government…if not for all the others”

Dive into both the lunacy of it as well as how it’s the local elections that can be the most important

How the citizen whose complaints seem insane actually have a point when you look at it from their point of view

Show how say the government of fairies or interdimensional beings is much more insane by comparison

[beboped1]

Men At Arms

A bit longer of a delay between finishing and writing here. I had to chew on this one for a bit. And even then, I didn't figure out where I was going until I got there with this review!

Men At Arms

First Read: High School

Verdict Then: I want more Vimes! Where's the next one?

Verdict Now: A well executed detective story, with great characters and some of the best moments of catharsis in the series so far. But Pratchett gets a bit lost in the nuances of the theme he's pursuing, and so this misses the clarity of his very best work.

Men At Arms is a hard one. To get the straightforward bits out of the way, it's a mostly well executed classic mystery, with a great cast of characters and some really amazingly cathartic moments. It's been long enough since I read this that I remembered the shape of the story, but not all the details, which was great. Detritus and Cuddy are just a perfectly executed enemies-to-friends story. Angua is overly submissive in the end, but represents a big step up in the "writing love interests" department for Pratchett. Vimes is a perfect demonstration of how to evolve a character arc from story to sequel, honoring what came before while not rehashing it. Ventinari is slowing turning into a better and more interesting character. Gaspode is back, and just as wonderful as ever. Carrot...let's get to the hard part.

Men At Arms is a story about Power. It weaves this tapestry from a vast diversity of threads. You've got anti-discrimination, the philosopher king (for and against), anti-gun stuff, corruption, anti-ableism, shared vision, charisma, certainly more I'm forgetting. But the heart of its message is deceptively simple - power should lie with those who can do the most good with it. I think this message is most clearly seen through 3 characters - Carrot, D'Eath, and Cruces. Carrot has power - power given to him willingly by others, power that comes from building trust. D'Eath is obsessed with power, but doesn't actually want it or know what to do with it - he has strong & very wrong ideas about where power comes from, and it's those ideas that doom him. Cruces has some power, but isn't satisfied with it, and so is easily seduced by the gonne.

And yet, for all the consistency of theme here, and despite the emotional heart of the story being one of Pratchett's best so far, I'm left feeling dissatisfied. Some of it is in a couple places that really didn't age well, like Gaspode's bit about Carrot being Angua's "master". But more fundamentally, the book in the end feels deeply ambivalent about the things it's actually saying. The gonne pieces feel like a total indictment of power based in violence - but maybe only easy violence that anyone has access to? Carrot choosing to hide the proof of his lineage is a rejection of divine right, but also, given his charisma and the support he garners, it's also a critique of democracy? Oh, but definitely, those who seek power shouldn't have it, well, except for Vetinari? It all comes through muddled in the end. I get the feeling that Pratchett wrote this book partly as a way to work through some of these concepts for himself, but ended up in a deeply ambivalent place about it all. The only thing that's certain in the end is Vimes - he's the right man for the job of leading the Watch, and Pratchett is careful never to put that into real question. Everything else is contextual.

Perhaps that's the final lesson of Men At Arms - there is no single or certain answer to how to allocate power, and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is selling something (and that something is probably fascism). Unless you've got a Vimes, then just put him in charge. All generalities are wrong, after all. Even that one.

[argumate]

kind of weird that one of the later books (Unseen Academicals?) featured Vetinari being sarcastic about democracy, like oh, of course Sto Lat voted themselves a bunch of tax breaks, haha, well tell the mayor he can ask me if he needs any pointers

most of the books portray tension between Vetinari and the guild leaders who would represent big business oligarchs today, with the common people merely a force to be harnessed and/or pacified as needs must.

[germality]

excerpt from Going Postal by Terry Pratchett

"Being an absolute ruler today was not as simple as people thought. At least, it was not simple if your ambitions included being an absolute ruler tomorrow. There were subtleties. Oh, you could order men to smash down doors and drag people off to dungeons without trial, but too much of that sort of thing was bad for business, habit-forming, style-lacking, and very, very dangerous for your health. A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least he could tell people he was their fault."

[discworldquotes]

Ankh-Morpork had dallied with many forms of government and had ended up with that form of democracy known as One Man, One Vote. The Patrician was the Man; he had the Vote.

Terry Pratchett, Mort

[sorenthestoryteller]

Being an absolute ruler today was not as simple as people thought. At least, it was not simple if your ambitions included being an absolute ruler tomorrow. There were subtleties. Oh, you could order men to smash down doors and drag people off the dungeons without trial, but too much of that sort of thing lacked style and anyway was bad for business, habit-forming and very, very dangerous for your health. A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least they could tell the people he was their fault.

Terry Pratchett,            Going Postal    

[pratchettquotes]

Vetinari walked over to the window and stared down at the city in silence for a moment and continued, "What can a mere jobbing tyrant achieve in the face of the even greater, multiheaded tyrant of public opinion and a regrettably free press?"

Terry Pratchett, Raising Steam

[pendragyn]

[...] Being an absolute ruler today was not as simple as people thought. At least, it was not simple if your ambitions included being an absolute ruler tomorrow. There were subtleties. Oh, you could order men to smash down doors and drag people off to dungeons without trial, but too much of that sort of thing was bad for business, habit-forming, style-lacking, and very, very dangerous for your health. A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault.

~Going Postal, by Terry Pratchett

[subliminalsilence13]

Terry Pratchett / Going Postal

[helenvader]

"Technically, the city of Ankh-Morpork is a Tyranny, which is not always the same thing as a monarchy, and in fact even the post of Tyrant has been somewhat redefined by the incumbent, Lord Vetinari, as the only form of democracy that works. Everyone is entitled to vote, unless disqualified by reason of age or not being Lord Vetinari."

🤣

Were I not disqualified, I would absolutely vote for him!

[aeshnacyanea2000]

A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least they could tell the people he was their fault.

Terry Pratchett - Going Postal

[moreterrypratchett]

a thinking tyrant

Being an absolute ruler today was not as simple as people thought. At least, it was not simple if your ambitions included being an absolute ruler tomorrow. There were subtleties. Oh, you could order men to smash down doors and drag people off to dungeons without trial, but too much of that sort of thing was bad for business, habit-forming, style-lacking, and very, very dangerous for your health. A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot vote-yourself-rich system like democracy. At least he could tell the people he was their fault.

Terry Pratchett, Going Postal