#you know that cersei quote where she says that joffrey was all she had at one point before myrcella was born | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

jackoshadows · 1 year

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can you tag your sansa stark posts as anti sansa stark? I’m not telling you to remove the main tag but just add the anti one

Just block me and move on.

It’s weird how fans of the character feel that canon Sansa quotes from the books is anti Sansa. Meanwhile Arya and Jon stans have to deal with murder baby Arya and incompetent Jon or unrelated quotes randomly put together to rewrite relationships. Maybe that's why the Arya and Jon tags are so full of headcanon Sansa that most of the time feels like an unrecognizable OC.

And then in the comments there is someone who has ‘not read the books in years’ telling me that I lack reading comprehension 😂

And this is while there is so much racist Arya fanart from Sansa stans on the Arya Stark tag despite repeated requests from poc to stop doing this.

It's honestly so depressing to go on the Arya Stark tag and see fanart on the tag or sidebars - because racist art is so popular in fandom!! - where canonically white Arya is differentiated from her more classically beautiful sister by simply drawing her in darker skin tones. At this point it's clear that artists are aware of the racist implications of doing this and still continue to do this because they don't care.

And yet using a Sansa book quote is supposedly 'anti Sansa' and needs to be tagged as such. I guess the tags should only be used for headcanons of racist caricatures of ‘ugly’ Arya and beautiful blue eyed, whitey white Sansa being the best sisters ever and nothing else.

I think the problem for many Sansa stans is that they stay in their echo chambers with their made up headcanons so that when they do venture outside that chamber to posts by other readers on the tag using the books, they are shocked and think there is some sort of unfair crusade going on against their fave.

I am not saying staying within fandom spaces is totally wrong btw. We all curate our fandom experiences on Tumblr. This app in particular allows us to block out ships or opinions we don’t particularly like. I am sure my group of mutuals and fans, including me, who reblog and follow posts have a similar kind of groupthink.

However, what’s fascinating with Sansa stans in particular is that Sansa is so much of a self-insert at this point that 90% of the character is headcanons. Her most popular ships are crackships, her relationships with her siblings has been re-written, she is now the underdog and outcast etc.

This has happened to me so many times - I make a post, a Sansa stan responds saying I am wrong, I don’t know how to read, I am a hater etc., I respond with book quotes and ask them to read the books, I am called uncivil and then immediately blocked (they just have to get that last word in!) Rinse and repeat.

Take the post that got me the above message for example.

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me.” - Sansa, AGoT

This is really not what happens in that chapter at all. Sansa does not really think of Arya, admits to forgetting about her at the end and it’s only in the next chapter she thinks that Arya may have gotten away on the galley Ned had arranged for them (Which does not happen thanks to Sansa’s tattling of Ned’s plans and Cersei placing Lannister guards on the galley).

At this point Arya is still trapped in KL trying to get out and it’s only been 3 days since Ned has been arrested. However, as per this person, Sansa is begging them not to torture and kill her and therefore names Arya, who she thinks is already safe in Winterfell, 3 days after the Starks and their men are taken down....

In the OP, I have used the most basic quotes, but in the actual chapter it’s far worse. Sansa is actually still dreaming of marrying beautiful prince Joffrey when she is taken to meet Cersei:

That night Sansa dreamt of Joffrey on the throne, with herself seated beside him in a gown of woven gold. She had a crown on her head, and everyone she had ever known came before her, to bend the knee and say their courtesies.

“Sweet Sansa,” Queen Cersei said, laying a soft hand on her wrist. “Such a beautiful child. I do hope you know how much Joffrey and I love you.”

“You do?” Sansa said, breathless. Littlefinger was forgotten. Her prince loved her. Nothing else mattered. (---)

“She is a sweet thing now, but in ten years, who can say what treasons she may hatch?”

“No,” Sansa said, horrified. “I’m not, I’d never … I wouldn’t betray Joffrey, I love him, I swear it, I do.” (---)

“And yet, I fear that Lord Varys and the Grand Maester have the right of it. The blood will tell. I have only to remember how your sister set her wolf on my son.”

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey’s loyal and loving wife.” - Sansa, AGoT

And then at the very end of the chapter:

It was not until later that night, as she was drifting off to sleep, that Sansa realized she had forgotten to ask about her sister. - Sansa, AGoT

So yes, Sansa is scared of not being able to marry Joffrey anymore, frightened of being accused as a traitor like her father and therefore throws out Arya’s name as the traitor - when as far as she knows Arya is in KL and Lannisters could have Arya, the same as her.

Next,

This is the funniest part! - ‘I haven’t read these books in a few years, however, it’s you who is very much lacking reading comprehension’ 😂😂😂

Make it make sense please. And then we are back to the usual Sansa is just a child, she’s 11 goddammit! She’s a teeny tiny baby! It’s totally justified for her to throw her even younger 9 year little sister under the bus as a traitor to be tortured or killed by the likes of Joffrey and Cersei instead of her.

And then finally, the predictable conclusion:

And block!

Because of course made up headcanons are ‘alternative interpretations’ and if we point out it’s fanfiction then we are being uncivil.

I can only say that I am glad that my side of the fandom don’t engage in this much fanfiction, projections and headcanons. It’s frustrating as a book fan to be told that I lack reading comprehension because I don’t accept their ‘alternative interpretations’ of how Sansa thinks Arya is safe in Winterfell three days after the Lannisters massacred all the Stark men and imprisoned Ned stark. And while Arya herself is still stuck inside KL unable to leave.

At this point I really do think there is no point in engaging with these stans because they are not doing this in good faith. Just block rather than waste time discussing. They seem to think that we need to accept their headcanons as book canon and if we don’t then we are simply anti Sansa posting anti Sansa stuff on the tags. It’s certainly a fascinating fandom aspect of a self insert fan favorite. It’s the reason she wins polls above more complex and well written characters in the books, the popular version of her is entirely about what fans project onto the character rather then actual written version in the books.

#asks

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kimwexlers-brownhair · 3 months

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Hello Kim ! I love that you're a Sansa fan, I was wondering what your favourite Sansa quote is? And why do you think she is so hated compared to characters like Jon, Dany, Arya, etc ? Thank you xx

Thank you for asking about my favorite child! It's hard to narrow down a quote as my absolute favorite. I love it whenever she's sneaky about manipulating idiots like Joffrey without ever dropping her armor of courtesy. "He is a fool, you're so clever to see it! He'd make a much better fool than a knight" about Hollard, and "“They say my brother Robb always goes where the fighting is thickest. Though he's older than Your Grace, to be sure. A man grown” are perfect examples.

They're also examples of why so many fans dislike her. She's too subtle for them, and too nuanced (maybe the most nuanced character in the series?). The dislike started when she was framed in the very beginning as Arya's foil, when her motives were easy to read: marry the prince and live like in romantic stories of chivalry. Now we're all obviously supposed to be frustrated with her, as we would be if our little sister or daughter fell for such an obvious douchebag but had a head too full of fairy tales to listen to reason. That frustration doesn't mean we hate them; in fact, it's usually so frustrating because you love the little twits. Yet because Sansa was set up as a foil to Arya, the underdog tomboy to cheer for, most viewers projected those affectionate feelings onto her and Sansa was left as the antagonist.

In season 2, we get nonstop action, with Arya, Jon, and Dany slicing through folks and burning them....and Sansa just seems to sit there sad and mealy-mouthed in King's Landing? Weak!

So many fans were attracted to the pageantry and sensory overload Game of Thrones gave them, and to take the time to understand someone as quiet and diffident as Sansa appeared was just not going to happen.

Ultimately, Gillian Flynn said it best: “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.” People watched GoT and decided for a woman to be equal, she had to commit violence, just like how men assert their masculinity. This hurts both Sansa and Arya in the show, I think. Sansa, with her subtlety and traditionally feminine interests, combined with the self-centered streak she showed in season one because God Forbid a teenager be self-centered especially since Arya isn't, was deemed too weak and annoying. Arya is the badass little ninja, but in the books, her descent into her darkest impulses because of the hell she's been through is...Not Good. Not empowering. She's a child. Sansa is a child. But because the way Arya survives and loses much of herself is cool and masculine-coded in the show, it's okay to rally around her. With Sansa, it's weak.

Unfortunately, a lot of Sansa fans go too far in the other direction, which I think is important to note. I've said this in another post, I know, but I just gotta repeat a distinct memory from when the show was at its height. More people were getting into Sansa, and her popularity was rising. Someone dared post their artwork of Sansa in armor and holding a sword. The reaction was ridiculous. "You're missing the whole point of Sansa's character if you give her armor and a sword!" First of all, Sansa is the most adaptable character in the series. Much like Elizabeth I, she would absolutely do that to boost morale at the very least. Second of all, people love to put women in boxes; to quote Succession, a lot of fans can't "hold a whole woman in their head."

Sansa is a an example of "safe" femininity; she'll always be good and sweet and pure, a nice escape from mean women like Cersei, butch Brienne, tomboy Arya. Suddenly all the women just become these traits and aren't allowed to grow past them or learn to love other things. Maybe Sansa does learn to pick up a sword willingly, and finds out it's...kinda fun! Empowering, even!

No, there's nothing wrong with loving to sew, sing, and dream of romance. However, there is harm in internalizing that as the only things women can and should do. There's just something so infantalizing about the treatment of Sansa by some fans: "Our little Sansa always behaves like a lady".

I love Sansa because she isn't always likable. She has a lot of internalized misogyny, and she takes it out on Arya. She's so self-centered in her desires that she tells Cersei about Ned. She's also a child who we can safely assume was more strongly discouraged not to end up like Arya than, say, Arya was. This is her arc. I hate that it happens because of trauma, but her growth stems from Ned's death because it shows that deep down, this child wants home and family more than pagaentry. But because she couldn't say it with a sword, fans missed this.

#sansa stark #asoiaf #game of thrones #got #arya stark

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aegor-bamfsteel · 2 years

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Why do you think Grrm mentioned that Sansa shared responsibility in Ned's death? Especially when he wrote it in a way that Sansa had no idea about things going on and she had no agency.

I’m not a psychologist, nor do I know GRRM personally, so I’m not the best person to ask about what motivated him. All I can do is analyze what he’s said in interviews (gathered by the tireless butterflies-dragons) about Sansa.

The first time he mentions Sansa with ties to Ned’s death is a 1999 SSM: “The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned’s downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her. But it would also be unfair to exonerate her.” because she knew about the ship she and Arya would be sent on. I’d really like to know what the original question was, to see if he was correcting the asker’s interpretation or going along with it. He concludes the passage by saying “It’s gratifying to know I have readers who care so much, although if truth be told sometimes I get the scary feeling that you people know these books better than I do…” which (while complimentary to the meta writers who comb over each word) does point to the idea he doesn’t always remember what he wrote and instead leans on a popular fandom interpretation. Further evidence of this is when in 2001, a fan asks if Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey’s sword was intentional; and he says it was, meant to foreshadow a bigger lapse in her memory…but all along, it was Arya who had misremembered the name in the text, and GRRM forgot what he wrote.

The last time GRRM says Sansa shares blame for Ned’s death was a 2000 interview promoting ASOS, in which he says “She has become more sympathetic [than in AGOT], partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father’s death.” I don’t remember the part (or what part), but I do remember her being beaten in front of the court by the Kingsguard for the crime of being Robb’s sister. I think we should also take note of the dates in which GRRM said these things. 1999 and 2000, so over 20 years ago; it’s so long ago, I doubt he remembers these quotes (and if he does, circumstantial evidence implies he regrets it). Because much more recently (and with more impact on the franchise), he wrote the Season 1 episode 8 “The Pointy End”, in which Sansa going to Cersei is omitted entirely. Instead, it’s made clear she was manipulated into writing the letter to Robb, and she makes excuses for Ned to Joffrey, getting a promise that Ned will be spared if he bends the knee. If GRRM wanted to keep Sansa telling Cersei, he could’ve, but instead adds a scene where Sansa gets Joffrey to promise (in the books she just thinks about it). I think the adaptation change indicates that by ~2011 he didn’t want people to blame Sansa at all, and the part of the fandom that hates on her to the point they consider her irredeemable is blowing things out of proportion. While Sansa is blamed for helping Cersei in the text in ACOK and AFFC, that comes from Cersei herself who is an unreliable narrator and very full of herself (she claims in the ACOK passage that Ned and Renly were plotting together, when…no; and I’m sure sending Loras to Dragonstone as in the AFFC passage will backfire). I’m just saying, unless I get more recent interviews where GRRM blames her, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt (which is rare for me, so you know I’m serious) that he just forgot what he wrote so went with a then-popular fan interpretation, but later regretted it when he saw how it was used to hate on Sansa, and wrote an adaptation wherein she did everything she could to help Ned.

#ask #opinion #sansa stark #grrm critical #fandom critical

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horizon-verizon · 1 year

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We can’t fault Alicent for disliking bastards. She has been taught that they are inherently untrustworthy and bad for being born out of wedlock. As modern viewers we know that isn’t true, but Alicent the character does not. From her perspective, bastards are going to inherit the throne over her own trueborn sons that she dutifully bore the king. Viserys treats his literal trueborn sons poorly and favors his bastard grandsons. That is very offensive to Alicent, understandably.

The Mormon book at one point teaches its followers to regard black people as "stained" and people designed or fit to be eternal servants of white people from this life until the next. The Roman Catholic church actively contributed to the missionaries and conquistadors conquering and enslaving native populations.

No.

Alicent doesn’t “dislike” bastards. She despises them and is fine with them dying horrible deaths. QUOTE #1 and QUOTE #2.

She refers to Blood and Cheese with Jaehaerys and Maelor…as if her own son Aemond didn’t intentionally kill Lucerys Velaryon.

As if the Blood and Cheese episode–harrowing and immoral as it was–didn’t happen as a response to Aemond killing Lucerys.

As if Alicent herself didn’t call for Lucerys’ eye after Aemond lost his in the same principle of eye-for-an-eye before Rhaenyra called for the Aemond’ “sharp” questioning/torture for accusing her sons for being bastards, which would endanger their very lives:

Afterward, King Viserys tried to make a peace, requiring each of the boys to tender an apology to his rivals on the other side, but these courtesies did not appease their vengeful mothers. Queen Alicent demanded that one of Lucerys Velaryon’s eyes should be put out, for the eye he had cost Aemond. Princess Rhaenyra would have none of that, but insisted that Prince Aemond should be questioned “sharply” until he revealed where he had heard her sons called “Strongs.” To so name them was tantamount to saying they were bastards, with no rights of succession…and that she herself was guilty of high treason.

(Fire and Blood; A Question of Succession)

Gyldayn (in-universe writer of Fire and Blood) says “mothers” as if it was just Alicent who ignored Viserys and pushed first for a child’s mutilation.

Rhaenyra did not call for torture and she did not call for Viserys to punish Aemond. She demands that he be questioned on where he heard the info, for Viserys to be firm with him, disciplined him.

And she doesn't do this because she always hated Aemond. She does it because Alicent wanted Lucerys’ eye, no real fair judgement, and to shield her own child (when he deserved Viserys' admonition).

As if she herself did not encourage her son to hate the Velaryon boys, which lead to Aemond’s hatred of the Velaryons boys. Which lead to Lucerys’ death.

Despite what Alicent says about Rhaenyra's sons dying at war, Lucerys didn’t actually die in a real battle because he didn’t engage or meet with Aemond, trying to escape and persisted in trying to avoid Aemond. Jacaerys was the one who died in the Battle in the Gullet.

Joffrey, after Alicent says what she says in the above quote, died when he tries to ride Rhaenyra's dragon Syrax and literally fell to his death trying to stop the King's Landers from destroying the Dragonpit and killing all the dragons in it.

By the way, anon, by this argument, are you yourself for or against the incest that the Targs practice? Did you know that the same religion that Alicent is devoted to allows first cousin marriage, which we (some of us ASoIaF fans) modern Westerners still count as incest?

Many Lords come from first-cousin marriages. An example is Tywin Lannister and his cousin-wife Joanna Lannister, Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion’s mother.

Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are all incest babies. Cersei and Jaime only took it one step further.

In the north, Serena Stark married her half uncle Eric and her sister Sansa married their other half uncle Jonnel. So any and all their kids are incest babies. Yet the Faith or any of the members within never once protests that the Starks are all abominations.

And we see by the very existence of framing, language, and circumstances of Jon Snow -- how GRRM writes about him -- that ASoIaF is very critical of the very concept of bastardry.

This idea of “dutifully bearing children”....anon, are you a ult-conservative? Do you want to restore feudal patriarchy?

Do you also find it acceptable that women’s bodies are pushed into this role of children-bearing? And have you not read the same ASoIaF texts that I have that show the consequences of such pressures and social assignments?

Aemma Arryn?!

You: “Viserys treats his literal trueborn sons poorly and favors his bastard grandsons. That is very offensive to Alicent, understandably.”

HERE is why Viserys protects Rhaenyra. Aside from the fact that he just ses her as worthier and doesn’t let her gender define her worthiness in the exact same way as most fathers do (not the best dad, but better if only in this one way).

Meanwhile, Show!Alicent believes she should usurp the King’s chosen heirs because Rhaenyra doesn’t act “womanly” and that her own kids have penises.

Meanwhile.....she is going against the law and the precedent of King’s word is law....while saying she is for customs. And Book!Alicent does it more for power than anything, still going against the law and custom while using the her sons’ gender towards power.

No, she is not for customs so much as what customs can do for her, her children’s, and her house’s power and ambition.

It’s “offensive” for Alicent to be this hypocritical and think herself in the moral right. This is a sinister, “subtler” type of evil.

Alicent knows her religion, but sure fucking doesn’t know her history. And you obviously don’t know either medieval or ASoIaF history:

In real life early medieval history, what determined a child’s legitimacy, even with their parents not being married to each other, differed in different regions at different times in medieval history.

Wales–before the Norman conquest of it and its incorporation into “England” around 1093–had “bastard” meaning a child whose father doesn’t acknowledge and all children acknowledged had equal legal rights. That included the right to share in the father’s inheritance.

before the 1200s in France, England and Spain, it was being born to the right parents–whether they were married according to the Church’s doctrines and rules–that made a child seem more worthy of inheriting their parents’ lands, properties and titles.

several early medieval kings – Charlemagne as an example– had concubines, mistresses, etc. who mothered children that were very much a part of these kings’ lineages.

there was also a real concern behind this was that kings can marry and annul/divorce a lot easier or how their parents’ resources could provide for the child’s future vassalages.

it wasn’t until more and more medieval lawyers used Church doctrines of marriage to draw up reasons for some illegitimate children to not inherit some lands and rights, such as the Anstey case of the 1160s (if you doubt this wiki page, look through its references listed below).

“There is very little evidence to suggest that an interest in keeping illegitimate children from inheriting noble or royal title outweighed political or practical considerations in the same way that the policing of illegal marriages sometimes did.” (The Wire)

This post by @theblackqveen HERE.

c. Other Traditional Rights, Ideas and Practices of Westerosi Lords

dishonest about their own origins (Andals) to make as if Westeros was their “promised land” whereas it was most likely to escape Valyrian dragonlord families (one of whom would have been the Targs)

right of the first night practiced openly... girls had to run away from home (and never come back) only likely to suffer even more to make a living for themselves and frequently sold themselves into slavery because of it –> out of the belief that these lords were “blessing” these girls and their families with their “spirit” and any child born out of this rape –> Ramsay Bolton –> despite this being contradictory to their Faith of the Seven official tenet compelling mutual fidelity between the two genders (yes, rape is not consensual sex, so one does not cheat if they rape -> that's another knock against this society, to consider rape as "cheating" on either the victim or the perpetrator's end)

ironborn kidnapping young girls and women from their homes to take as sex slaves and “salt wives” out of this belief that it made their warriors “stronger”

Bastards like:

William the Conquerer

Elizabeth I

Jon of Gaunt’s children

Benedict Rivers/Benedict Justman

and the (rumored) Orys Baratheon

...all history-making, culture-shaping illegitimate persons (one definition of “bastard” or another)

Finally, read this POST by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.

#asoiaf asks to me #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #Fire and Blood #alicent's characterization #alicent hightower #fire and blood comment #westerosi bastards #the faith of the seven #asoiaf religion #the andals #westerosi history #medieval history #westerosi society #westerosi politics #westerosi nobility #medieval bastards

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melrosing · 2 years

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I don’t agree with that other Sansa fan’s interpretation of Arya but I was curious what you made of this quote:

Joffrey walked toward him. "Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?"

"She ast me to, m'lord," Mycah said. "She ast me to."

Sansa had only to glance at Arya and see the flush on her sister's face to know the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen.

I thought Arya flushing was GRRM pointing out that she felt uh, guilt here because she was behaving out of the norm for someone of her station and this seemed like the set up for why Sansa holds her responsible for Lady’s death. Cersei and Robert are the ones who are directly responsible, but I thought GRRM took pains to talk about how Sansa perceived Arya’s nonconformity incomprehensible and also something that makes life difficult for Sansa (because Arya is rude at times which embarrasses Sansa in front of the royal family and won’t listen when Mordane wants Sansa to make her behave) and then Arya’s nonconformist behavior leads to this scenario which results in Lady’s death. It felt like he lined up the ducks for why Sansa would blame Arya and I don’t think the reader is being asked to take either girls side as much as understand why they both behaved the way they did. I guess I didn’t find Sansa as unreasonable after Lady’s death as it seems like a lot of people do. It seemed a very natural fallout to me.

I think for the most part I agree with you here? Like, I can see how Sansa got it in her head that 'if it weren't for Arya none of this would've happened', because she just can't stand for it to have been Joffrey and Cersei who were truly responsible - her world would come crashing down. And yes, it needed to, we wish she'd let herself believe the truth then rather than when it was too late... but she didn't (at least we get asoiaf out of though lol).

Still that doesn't change the fact that Sansa knows the truth, even whilst she rejects it. She went with the 'it all happened so fast' excuse because she knows what truly happened, and it is, imo, an active choice she makes again and again to blame Arya.

But like, it's interesting that she does this. And again, I think it's realistic: to get weirdly personal again, I remember my younger sister used to be criticised a lot for various reasons when we were kids, to the point that, like Sansa, I would regurgitate a lot of these criticisms, and think and become very impatient with stuff about my sister that I shouldn't have been. I'd see her as a little chaos agent lol. It really twists your perspective of someone, and it's a difficult thing to undo, especially if you're only eleven and rely on a parent/guardian's perspective to interpret the world.

So it's easy to see how Sansa cast Arya in that role, found she fit, and ran with it. It was wrong, though, and her resulting behaviour is deeply unfair on Arya. Meanwhile, Arya's anger that Sansa did not defend she and Mycah before Robert is more understandable, though it does fail to take into consideration the complexity of Sansa's position - but she is only nine, so.

So I would say it's easier to take Arya's side, though I agree it doesn't help to do so. And I do think Arya's side is made easier to take throughout AGOT because of that childish realism Sansa's afforded that she doesn't get as much of, but again, truly think it's a hopeless exercise pitting them against each other.

But yeah I find their fall out really interesting, and I understand where Sansa's got lost in her head, it's well done.

#ask #sansa stark #arya stark #asoiaf

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vivacissimx · 2 years

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There are three specific plotlines where three characters are put in positions of authority with impossible tasks set before them. I mean Tyrion as Joffrey's Hand in ACOK, Daenerys as Queen of Meereen in ADWD, and Jon Snow as Lord Commander in ADWD.

Tyrion is facing war on three fronts, with Joffrey and Cersei inside the Keep

Daenerys has the slaver alliance against her with the Sons of the Harpy & the pale mare within her walls

Jon has the Wall, the free folk, Stannis, incoming Winter, and the Others to worry about

All three of them occupy impressively credentialed positions that in reality are joyless to navigate and bring into being relative stalemates with opposing factions. All three are unfairly despised for their roles, although they are each doing what they consider necessary to survival and dignity. Still they persevere even if/when they find their efforts fruitless, but it does make them angry, hopeless, mistrustful. They have to dig deeper into themselves as the world around them becomes more isolated.

And in doing so, they all turn on themselves, become harsh so as to self-motivate.

"Don't you see the jest, Lord Varys?" Tyrion waved a hand at the shuttered windows, at all the sleeping city. "Storm's End is fallen and Stannis is coming with fire and steel and the gods alone know what dark powers, and the good folk don't have Jaime to protect them, nor Robert nor Renly nor Rhaegar nor their precious Knight of Flowers. Only me, the one they hate." He laughed again. "The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I'm all that stands between them and chaos."

-ACOK, Tyrion X

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

-ADWD, Daenerys II

A rebel and a turncloak, aye, and a bastard and a warg as well.

-ADWD, Jon III

These are... the most uncharitable things they could possibly say about themselves, and they're saying them because they believe it's how they're perceived. These aren't moments of self-realization (i.e. I'll be what I have to be), they're more like resigned to what they can't change: the opinion of others. Then they wonder if maybe it's all true.

But Tyrion goes on to put up a valiant effort to defend King's Landing, Daenerys sues for peace, Jon attempts to save thousands of wildlings from death. That they aren't kind to themselves doesn't mean they're not trying or that they no longer believe in themselves. It's just that the taste of failure on such a large scale is bitter to the point of being a choking hazard.

What I want to say is that treating these three situations and the reflections within them as defining (Tyrion shouldn't need affirmation, Daenerys should know she's a monster, Jon's ambitions should be stamped out because he's a man of the Night's Watch) isn't right. These three plotlines are learning curves, they're designed to end in disaster. This is the Tyrion who slaps Shae for playfully mocking him, the Daenerys that puts on the tokar she wished to ban, the Jon that sends all his friends away. They're not fully realized versions of themselves.

Moreso in Dany and Jon's case but the use of these quotes as examples of enlightenment is popular. For Tyrion, "I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be," is more common but it's the same issue: they're all just being cruel to themselves in those moments. Tyrion is berating himself for ever caring or trying to be good - Daenerys feels guilty because innocent people are being murdered - Jon is fighting uphill both ways barefoot. This isn't proof that the dragons are evil, or that Jon is content being a bastard, or that Tyrion has 'finally learned his proper place.' It's more like the opposite: they are not satisfied and they're not willing to fulfill what's expected of them.

And they're not going to stop doing what they're doing. Just like #some are not going to stop using these quotes as if they're the sum total of Tyrion, Dany, and Jon's character arcs.

#asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #text #tyrion lannister #daenerys targaryen #jon snow

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chispas-and-broken-bindings · 3 years

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Lmao 🤣 I know to which post you are replying about them being besties . That scene always gave me more ominous vibes than actually something that would ignite friendship . Also the title of " Usurper's Dog " isn't something @ry@ is going to take lightly .

Ha! I actually didn't have any particular post in mind. The Dany/Arya friendship is just something that I see float around the fandom from time to time and it drives me absolutely bonkers (not fanon. feel free to explore all your platonic dreams with these two in fanon. Go wild. You do you.)

If we are talking canon though, I can't think of a single character that has more anti-Targ foreshadowing in their chapters than Arya (even Jon comes in second place). I actually started pasting bits of Arya's chapters into a word document awhile ago, because I couldn't believe how much GRRM uses her POV to detail the horrors of fire and burning...it's almost comical how heavy-handed he is with it.

And yet...

After I saw this ask in my inbox, I looked at the Arya Stark tag and immediately found a post about Dany and Arya being best friends.

So.

Here we are:

A Storm of Swords - Arya I

Later they passed through a burned village, threading their way carefully between the shells of blackened hovels and past the bones of a dozen dead men hanging from a row of apple trees. When Hot Pie saw them he began to pray, a thin whispered plea for the Mother's mercy, repeated over and over. Arya looked up at the fleshless dead in their wet rotting clothes and said her own prayer. Ser Gregor, it went, Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei. She ended it with valar morghulis, touched Jaqen's coin where it nestled under her belt, and then reached up and plucked an apple from among the dead men as she rode beneath them. It was mushy and overripe, but she ate it worms and all.

That was the day without a dawn. Slowly the sky lightened around them, but they never saw the sun. Black turned to grey, and colors crept timidly back into the world. The soldier pines were dressed in somber greens, the broadleafs in russets and faded golds already beginning to brown.

Hot Pie opened his mouth and closed it. He did not fall off his horse. The rain began again a short time later. They still had not seen so much as a glimpse of the sun. It was growing colder, and pale white mists were threading between the pines and blowing across the bare burned fields.

A Storm of Swords - Arya III

That night they sheltered in a burned, abandoned village.

A Storm of Swords - Arya IV

The next night they found shelter beneath the scorched shell of a sept, in a burned village called Sallydance. Only shards remained of its windows of leaded glass, and the aged septon who greeted them said the looters had even made off with the Mother's costly robes, the Crone's gilded lantern, and the silver crown the Father had worn. "They hacked the Maiden's breasts off too, though those were only wood," he told them. "And the eyes, the eyes were jet and lapis and mother-of-pearl, they pried them out with their knives. May the Mother have mercy on them all."

A Storm of Swords Arya VI

"Please," Sandor Clegane rasped, cradling his arm. "I'm burned. Help me. Someone. Help me." He was crying. "Please."

Arya looked at him in astonishment. He's crying like a little baby, she thought.

Clegane tried to stand, but as he moved a piece of burned flesh sloughed right off his arm, and his knees went out from under him. Tom caught him by his good arm and held him up.

His arm, Arya thought, and his face. But he was the Hound. He deserved to burn in a fiery hell. The knife felt heavy in her hand. She gripped it tighter. "You killed Mycah," she said once more, daring him to deny it. "Tell them. You did. You did."

"I did." His whole face twisted. "I rode him down and cut him in half, and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your father's head off."

Lem grabbed her wrist and twisted, wrenching the dagger away. She kicked at him, but he would not give it back. "You go to hell, Hound," she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. "You just go to hell!"

(Okay, so she's not exactly sympathetic to the Hound's plight here, but still...another reference to burning, and a pretty graphic one at that)

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

Jack-Be-Lucky, Harwin, and Merrit o' Moontown braved the burning septry to search for captives. They emerged from the smoke and flames a few moments later with eight brown brothers, one so weak that Merrit had to carry him across a shoulder.

The septry soon collapsed in a roar of smoke and flame, its walls no longer able to support the weight of its heavy slate roof. The eight brown brothers watched with resignation. They were all that remained, explained the eldest, who wore a small iron hammer on a thong about his neck to signify his devotion to the Smith. "Before the war we were four-and-forty, and this was a prosperous place. We had a dozen milk cows and a bull, a hundred beehives, a vineyard and an apple arbor. But when the lions came through they took all our wine and milk and honey, slaughtered the cows, and put our vineyard to the torch.

A Storm of Swords - Arya XI

"Dead," he shouted back at her. "Do you think they'd slaughter his men and leave him alive?" He turned his head back toward the camp. "Look. Look, damn you."

The camp had become a battlefield. No, a butcher's den. The flames from the feasting tents reached halfway up the sky. Some of the barracks tents were burning too, and half a hundred silk pavilions. Everywhere swords were singing. And now the rains weep o'er his hall, with not a soul to hear. She saw two knights ride down a running man. A wooden barrel came crashing onto one of the burning tents and burst apart, and the flames leapt twice as high. A catapult, she knew. The castle was flinging oil or pitch or something.

"Come with me." Sandor Clegane reached down a hand. "We have to get away from here, and now." Stranger tossed his head impatiently, his nostrils flaring at the scent of blood. The song was done. There was only one solitary drum, its slow monotonous beats echoing across the river like the pounding of some monstrous heart. The black sky wept, the river grumbled, men cursed and died. Arya had mud in her teeth and her face was wet. Rain. It's only rain. That's all it is. "We're here," she shouted. Her voice sounded thin and scared, a little girl's voice. "Robb's just in the castle, and my mother. The gate's even open." There were no more Freys riding out. I came so far. "We have to go get my mother."

(heart: broken)

Look, there is a lot to say about fire and about rain in Arya's chapters, particularly in A Storm of Swords. I don't have the energy for it, so I'm just dumping quotes. Draw your own conclusions.

This collection is by no means exhaustive, and I'm sure there is someone more dedicated than I am, who has written something about this symbolism. (If anyone has it, send me a link).

All I'm saying is that GRRM isn't throwing all this devastation by fire and blood into Arya's chapters as positive foreshadowing for how she'll feel when a certain conqueror cross the Narrow Sea with her dragons.

#Arya Stark #dark!dany #my asks #dark dany #dark daenerys

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jeynearrynofthevale · 3 years

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Sansa Stark is a lesbian and here’s why:

So, in honor of sapphicsansafest, I’m making a meta master post about why I believe Sansa is a lesbian. This will include a few quotes and I’m going to separate it into a few sections.

Sansa’s descriptions of other women:

“The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.”

Even when Sansa hates Cersei, her descriptions of her are always focused around her beauty. The way she describes her eyes and cheeks is also similar to the way the men that are attracted to Cersei describe her.

“Twenty mules awaited them within the waycastle, along with two mule-walkers and the Lady Myranda Royce. Lord Nestor’s daughter proved to be a short, fleshy woman, of an age with Mya Stone, but where Mya was slim and sinewy, Myranda was soft-bodied and sweet-smelling, broad of hip, thick of waist, and extremely buxom. Her thick chestnut curls framed round red cheeks, a small mouth, and a pair of lively brown eyes.”

Similarly, her description of Myranda is very focused around her looks and specific details like her being “sweet smelling” and “extremely buxom” seem to point towards Sansa being attracted to Margaery. Once again Sansa’s descriptions of women mimic the way straight men describe them. Sansa’s interactions with Myranda are something I'll comment on later.

“Sansa had never been this close to the Dornishwoman before. She is not truly beautiful, she thought, but something about her draws the eye.”

Her description of Ellaria is also interesting as it helps show that the way Sansa thinks about women isn’t solely an aesthetic appreciation. She also enjoys the way unconventionally attractive women look.

“Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt. Her hair was black as a raven's wing, so short and shaggy that Alayne suspected that she cut it with a dagger. Mya's eyes were her best feature, big and blue. She could be pretty, if she would dress up like a girl. Alayne found herself wondering whether Ser Lothor liked her best in her iron and leather, or dreamed of her gowned in lace and silk.”

This might be the best example of Sansa’s attraction to women. She once again thinks about the beauty of a woman who isn’t conventionally attractive and she even comments on her eyes. She then contextualizes her attraction by convincing herself that she’s thinking from a man’s perspective. In reality though she’s thinking about how Mya looks her best to her and is unable to really think of that because it's not considered proper.

“When Margaery Tyrell smiled, she looked very like her brother Loras.”

This one is pretty self explanatory. She thinks of how lovely Margaery looks repeatedly and when Margaery is admirable and happy, she once again contextualizes her attraction by bringing a man into the picture.

My thoughts on her “crushes” on men:

Now, her 3 real crushes in the books are Joffrey Baratheon, Loras Tyrell, and Waymar Royce. They all follow a very similar template. Men straight out of the songs and stories that Sansa loves.

“Sansa did not really know Joffrey yet, but she was already in love with him. He was all she ever dreamt her prince should be, tall and handsome and strong, with hair like gold.”

And

“Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs.”

Joffrey is someone Sansa likes because he’s the prince out of songs, the idealized prince in the stories. And Sansa loves songs and stories so she thinks she loves Joffrey. When she comments on Joffrey’s beauty, it’s almost always in the context of songs or stories. He’s also the easiest crush, her betrothed who she has to learn to love.

“Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes.”

And

“Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful.”

Loras is also an ideal out of the songs. Sansa says it herself. He’s the hero she wants. She always thinks of him in that context. It makes sense that she crushes on him. He’s a safe easy crush. It’s like the asoiaf equivalent of crushing on some guy in a boyband.

Sansa’s interactions with Margaery

“You will love Highgarden as I do, I know it.” Margaery brushed back a loose strand of Sansa’s hair. “Once you see it, you’ll never want to leave. And perhaps you won’t have to.”

The way Margaery tries to appeal to Sansa and talk to her almost echoes a flirtation. Pushing a strand of hair behind someone’s ear is a textbook romantic move. And the persuasion relies on Sansa liking Margaery and is all about finding love.

“”Margaery’s kindness had been unfailing, and her presence changed everything.”

The way Sansa thinks of Margaery is quite striking and loving. It is as though Margaery was this big important force in Sansa’s life.

“Margaery was different, though. Sweet and gentle, yet there was a little of her grandmother in her, too. The day before last she’d taken Sansa hawking.”

Sansa also goes on what pretty much amounts to dates with Margaery. And the sentiment of Margaery being different is very similar to Arya’s thoughts on Gendry: “Only Gendry was different” and their relationship is often considered to have romantic undertones. It’s also interesting that gentle is used to describe Margaery when that is one of the words Ned used to describe Sansa’s future romance.

“She is so brave, Sansa thought, galloping after her.”

Sansa clearly admires Margaery immensely and her thoughts are always complimentary. She clearly crushes on her.

Sansa’s interactions with Myranda:

And you must be the Lord Protector’s daughter,” she added, as the bucket went rattling back up to the Eyrie. “I had heard that you were beautiful. I see that it is true.”

Alayne curtsied. “My lady is kind to say so.”

“Kind?” The older girl gave a laugh. “How boring that would be. I aspire to be wicked. You must tell me all your secrets on the ride down. May I call you Alayne?”

The complimenting of Sansa’s beauty is another common trope in flirtation. And the way she interacts is very sexual and ostentatious. It’s flirty. And asking to call someone by their first name is also a romantic trope.

“Randa. It seems a hundred years since I was four-and-ten. How innocent I was. Are you still innocent, Alayne?”

She blushed. “You should not ... yes, of course.”

Sansa is nervous around Myranda in a way she’s not around men. She even blushes. Myranda is also directly questioning Sansa about her sexual experience.

“Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl.”

She starts developing a crush.

“She is trying to make me blush again.

Lady Myranda must have heard her thoughts. “You do turn such a pretty shade of pink. When I blush I look quite like an apple. I have not blushed for years, though.” She leaned closer.”

Once again, this is super flirty and seductive. She’s complimenting Sansa on her blush and implying her own experience. This whole conversation is ripe with that stuff.

“She ate with Mya and Myranda. “So you’re brave as well as beautiful,” Myranda said to her.

“No.” The compliment made her blush. “I’m not. I was so scared. I don’t think I could have crossed without Lord Robert.”

Once again Sansa blushes at Myranda’s comments.

“By the time they finally reached her father’s castle, Lady Myranda was drowsing too, and Alayne was dreaming of her bed.”

This is some interesting word play. It might not be intentional but ships like Braime have similar lines.

And a few miscellaneous/bonus things:

“Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try.”

This is how Sansa thinks about Tyrion. She’s a child forcibly married to him so she’d probably judge him harshly regardless but this phrasing struck me. It’s very similar to the way lgbtq people are often told to try to love another gender even if they cannot. And the way Septa Mordane taught Sansa about attraction and gender obviously has a huge influence on her perception of her own sexuality.

“When a serving girl brought her supper, she almost kissed her.”

And this is Sansa thinking about kissing a girl.

“I am coming for you, Lady Sansa, she thought as she rode into the darkness. Be not afraid. I shall not rest until I've found you.”

The fact that the true knight Sansa wishes for, the hero out of the stories, the romantic trope is Brienne, a woman, has some awesome queer implications. Even if her relationship with Brienne isn’t really a romantic one, it certainly fits the idea of courtly love.

#asoiaf #sansa stark #lesbian Sansa Stark #sapphicsansafest #sansasource #sansaery #Sansa x Myranda #Sansa x Mya #asoiaf meta #my meta

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dontbipanicjonsa · 3 years

Text

Dutiful Sansa Stark

Plus some extra stuff about perceptions and POV traps

Read under the cut-

Tyrion

"No," Sansa said at once. "You . . . you are kind to offer, but . . . there are no devotions, my lord. No priests or songs or candles. Only trees, and silent prayer. You would be bored."

"No doubt you're right." She knows me better than I thought. "Though the sound of rustling leaves might be a pleasant change from some septon droning on about the seven aspects of grace." Tyrion waved her off. "I won't intrude. Dress warmly, my lady, the wind is brisk out there."

He was tempted to ask what she prayed for, but Sansa was so dutiful she might actually tell him, and he didn't think he wanted to know.

xxx

He wondered what Sansa would do if he leaned over and kissed her right now. Flinch away, most likely. Or be brave and suffer through it, as was her duty. She is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine. If he told her that he wished to have her maidenhead tonight, she would suffer that dutifully as well, and weep no more than she had to.

Littlefinger

A true daughter would not refuse her sire a kiss, so Alayne went to him and kissed him, a quick dry peck upon the cheek, and just as quickly stepped away.

"How . . . dutiful." Littlefinger smiled with his mouth, but not his eyes.

xxx

She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. "I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company."

"You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had."

"Dutiful and beautiful," said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders.

That's a lot of dutiful.

On the surface it seems like these two situations- one with Tyrion and one with LF- parallel each other; creepy, older men interested in Sansa think she's too 'dutiful' because she suffers through their attentions. However, when we dig deeper it becomes clear that the two situations actually contrast in subtle ways.

Tyrion

Tyrion calls her dutiful, but what duty is she fulfilling? She actually fails to fulfil her biggest duty to him i.e. having his babies (ew).

Or rather, she refuses to do her duty to him.

"On my honor as a Lannister," the Imp said, "I will not touch you until you want me to."

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, "And if I never want you to, my lord?"

His mouth jerked as if she had slapped him. "Never?"

Cue me falling ever deeper in love

This is a powerful scene. Tyrion is willing to give her an inch, but she goes and takes a mile. She could have just said "yes, I'll let you know when I want you" and then never let him know, but instead she said that. His plan was to postpone the consummation, but now she’s taken the opportunity to tell him that if she had her way, they would never consummate their marriage. He can still go through with it, but with this one statement (knowingly or unknowingly) she's put the onus of choice on him. He can still touch her, he can still consummate the marriage- but Sansa will never want him to. It’s still her ‘duty’ to suffer through it, but now any future sexual contact between them is undoubtedly in the non-con category.

That doesn't sound like Sansa is just reluctant to do her duty, it sounds like she's rejecting it.

In fact, Sansa is basically never shown to think about her 'duties' as his wife. Eating lunch with him may be her 'duty', but she isn't doing it for that reason. She's doing it because what other choice does she have?

Honestly I'm not sure where he even gets the idea that she's oh-so-dutiful, because as far as I can tell, she's really just doing the bare minimum she can get away with doing as his political-prisoner-child-bride.

Sansa does not, for a single second, give a flying fuck about her duty to Tyrion and I love her for it.

And yet, Tyrion's my-dutiful-wife false belief is what allows her to get away with planning her escape. Tyrion fails to be suspicious of her even when he absolutely should be re: that first quote.

So-

Tyrion likes to think Sansa is dutiful (for some reason).

Sansa is not dutiful.

Sansa doesn't seem to be aware that Tyrion thinks she is, but it works to her advantage nevertheless.

Littlefinger

Now in Littlefinger's case she really is playing the dutiful daughter.

This time, fulfilling her 'duty' as his daughter is in her best interest, because it acts as an excuse to avoid what he really wants from her. It's basically the reverse of the Tyrion Situation.

So-

Littlefinger thinks Sansa is dutiful because she is.

She's acting dutiful on purpose (to diffuse his sexual attraction (ew) towards her).

Clearly, it's working to her advantage.

Now, onto the extra stuff-

We have this-

Dontos chuckled. "My Jonquil's a clever girl, isn't she?"

"Joffrey and his mother say I'm stupid."

"Let them. You're safer that way, sweetling.

xxx

"The g-g-godswood, my lord," she said, not daring to lie. "Praying . . . praying for my father, and . . . for the king, praying that he'd not be hurt."

"Think I'm so drunk that I'd believe that?" He let go his grip on her arm, swaying slightly as he stood, stripes of light and darkness falling across his terrible burnt face. "You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you're taller too, almost . . . ah, you're still a stupid little bird, aren't you?

xxx

"There's to be so much, my lord. I have a little tummy." She fiddled nervously with her hair and looked down the table to where Joffrey sat with his Tyrell queen.

Does she wish it were her in Margaery's place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense.

Sansa goes under the radar so well in KL because people think she's too stupid to do anything. Again, we see Tyrion, an overall smart guy, fail to be suspicious of Sansa's very suspicious behavior nevermind that she IS a child you asshole because he thinks she's stupid.

So-

People think Sansa is stupid

She's not stupid. We also don't see Sansa actively encouraging that perception, which makes sense because-

she doesn't need to. They do that all by themselves and

she's too busy believing she really is stupid, poor kid

3. It works to her advantage anyway.

Which leads me to-

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

xxx

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf."

xxx

"The dwarf's wife did the murder with him," swore an archer in Lord Rowan's livery. "Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws."

So-

People thinking Sansa murdered Joffrey with her witchy wolf ways.

She didn't.

???

I am SO looking forward to see where this goes.

More extra stuff-

This entire post grew out of me obsessing over this post.

It got me thinking that out of the six core characters, Sansa is the most observed one. We see her in real time through the chapters of other POV characters the most. I counted. My count can be up or down by about one or two chapters, but I have Sansa pegged at around 15 chapters, followed by Tyrion at 11, then A*ya (around 9), then Jon (around 8), then Bran (4), and then D*ny (0). This is exacerbated by the fact that Sansa has some of the least number of POV chapters of the 'core six'. This means that-

We see Sansa more (or at more than others) from other POVs than her own. In other words, we get to be in Sansa's head less and in other characters' head thinking about her more (unlike most other main characters).

This plays a BIG ROLE in her POV trap, which is pretty much the opposite of D*ny's POV trap in terms of both what it is hiding and how

Perception and reality play a very obvious and direct part in Sansa's story, both her own perceptions and others' perceptions of her.

The Vale arc changes everything though. Now suddenly-

She's surrounded by an entirely new cast of people

She's the only POV character in the location

She has an entirely new identity with none of the same pre-conceived biases attached (though there sure are other pre-conceived biases that go with her identity)

This has happened with other characters as well (Tyrion in ADWD, Arya in every other book), but the impact it has on our perception of her is unique. It's basically reversing everything her POV trap was previously built on.

Now, she is her own worst critic. Now, the thoughts that other POV characters have of her (Tyrion, Cersei) are increasingly muddled. Is she a murderous sorcerer, or a stupid little girl? Was she dutiful, or a scheming traitor? The correct answer is-

she was none of those things. Everyone is just....trapped by their own PoV?

#sansa stark #meta #anti sanrion #anti littlefinger

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turtle-paced · 3 years

Text

Anon asked: What do you think about Jaime in ASOS playing the whole you can’t help who you love and saying “the things I do for love” then saying hiw he’ll marry mycella to Joffrey eventhough he knows how terrible Joffrey is, and how Robert was welcome to him, and later how he deserved to died eventhough being his son and around 14. How do you think Cersei would react pre ASOs if she knew how he felt towards Joffrey?

This seems to refer to several different passages, taking place at very different points of Jaime’s ASoS arc. Let’s put a cut in here for length. The shortest version: Jaime’s nonexistent relationship with Joffrey and lack of thought for Joffrey as a person is a deliberate thing, meant to show how Jaime’s terrible relationship choices have impacted the rest of his social life.

Here’s the first passage.

Perhaps Stannis Baratheon and the Starks had done him a kindness. They had spread their tale of incest all over the Seven Kingdoms, so there was nothing left to hide. Why shouldn't I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey's claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the Iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we've sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens.

- Jaime III, ASoS

This man still has two hands. He’s not thinking about Joffrey here, he’s thinking about himself. This passage is far more about what Jaime wants from his relationship with Cersei than it is a serious thought about what’s best for Joffrey and/or Myrcella.

"You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?"

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. And because he deserved to die.

- Jaime IX, ASoS

That second quote is brutal. Absolutely brutal. But it does go to show how Jaime’s reassessing his relationship with Cersei at that point, as well as a bit more consideration of who Joffrey actually was. The thoughts of marriage and superiority aren’t in that quote. On the contrary, Jaime’s thoughts on Joffrey here are sharply reductive. It’s the endpoint of Jaime’s ASoS struggles with the realisation that he doesn’t love his bio-kids.

Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. "How would it look?" his sister warned him when the women finally left them. "Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him." Jaime yielded with hardly a fight. The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts. Robert was welcome to him.

And now he's dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose.

- Jaime VII, ASoS

The Knight of Flowers had been so mad with grief for Renly that he had cut down two of his own Sworn Brothers, but it had never occurred to Jaime to do the same with the five who had failed Joffrey. He was my son, my secret son... What am I, if I do not lift the hand I have left to avenge mine own blood and seed?

- Jaime VIII, ASoS

This line of thinking, specifically how his relationship with Cersei has impacted any desire he might have had to build a family, continues through the end of ASoS into AFFC, mostly when talking about the still-alive Tommen.

"He is your son..."

"He is my seed. He's never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them."

"To keep them safe! You as well. How would it have looked if my brother had played the father to the king's children? Even Robert might have grown suspicious."

- Jaime IX, ASoS

"Tommen is no son of mine, no more than Joffrey was." His voice was hard. "You made them Robert's too."

His sister flinched.

- Jaime I, AFFC

Overall, I’m not sure how much Jaime thought about Joffrey as a person, full stop. When he says Joffrey was nothing to him, I think he meant it entirely. What we see at the end of ASoS is Jaime trying to deal with the realisation that he had a child and it meant nothing. His emotional commitment is entirely to his girlfriend, and no further. On the one level, wow uh okay a child is dead and Jaime’s thinking is all about what it means for his own character development. On another, the reflection on his lack of meaningful relationships with people other than his father and siblings is sorely needed. What sort of relationship is this where Jaime has a kid with his long term girlfriend and...nothing?

This is also a point where I don’t think Jaime and Cersei understood the other’s perspective at all. From those last two passages, I think it’s pretty clear Cersei didn’t understand that when she told Jaime not to cultivate a relationship with their kids, that he’d end up not having a relationship with their kids. On his part, Jaime never got the fear that drives Cersei. It doesn’t look like either actually communicated their worries and perspectives to the other. Like the relationship is unhealthy and deeply dysfunctional, or something.

#ASoIaF #valyrianscrolls #jaime lannister #cersei lannister #a storm of swords #a feast for crows

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jackoshadows · 3 years

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what i don’t understand is sansa stans who insist that she learnt from the best (cersei ans littlefinger) and so she’ll be an amazing ruler and player. first of all, when did she learn about the game from cersei? she was a hostage in kings landing, she wasn’t sitting in on small council meetings or anything and cersei definitely wasn’t telling her about all the moves she was making. the only time cersei really gives her ‘advice’ is during blackwater when she says that ‘tears/sex is a woman’s weapon’. regardless, cersei isn’t someone you want to be taught from, she makes terrible decision after terrible decision in affc. (since we’re on this topic, dany is the younger and more beautiful queen who foils cersei).

as for littlefinger, he’s definitely not a leader or ruler. he subtly manipulates things here and there and gets away with a lot of it because he stays under the radar. he’s not someone who inspires devotion for sure. nothing about the vale arc in affc puts sansa in an actual leadership position.

I agree it's best that no one learns how to be a ruler from Cersei Lannister, considering how much she messes up in AFfC.

And yes, it’s my opinion that Sansa's arc is leading towards outwitting Littlefinger and understanding how to play the game rather than ruling. And with two books left to go, she still has a lot of learning to do and being able to process the information available to her, analyze it and connect the dots and use the data to her advantage.

I just finished my ADwD and TWoW sample chapter re-reads so a rather long essay under the cut.

Sansa did acknowledge early on that unlike Cersei, if she were to become queen, she would prioritize getting the people's love over their fear - like the Tyrells did. But unlike the majority opinion of fandom, I think that this points to Sansa giving more importance to PR than to actual ruling. That it was better to be a loved monarch than a feared one.

It’s funny that Sansa stans often point the finger at Dany as being narcissistic, entitled and arrogant, when the few comments that Sansa makes about being queen revolve around her.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace. ” - Sansa, AGoT

“ If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.” - Sansa, ACoK

Compare her quotes to those of current leaders/rulers in the books:

A good lord protects his people, he reminded himself. - Bran, ACoK

“Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?“ - Daenerys, ASoS

“And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.” Davos, ASoS

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." - Stannis, ASoS

“I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord— what are these wildlings, if not men?” - Jon Snow, ADwD

The other leaders in the quotes are putting the people first, prioritizing the people’s needs first no matter how much it affects the rulers themselves. Jon’s decision to let the Wildlings through the wall is necessary, but highly unpopular among his men. And ruling is more than just being beloved by the people -

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same council that I one gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took the ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is the hard part of ruling be it in the middle ages or now. It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. - GRRM

In this context, Sansa’s quote about being queen comes off as naive, ignorant, fairy taleish, like the queens in her stories - where everyone loves the queens and that’s all that’s necessary to be one.

It’s easy for Sansa stans to nitpick and criticize each and every one of Dany’s decisions and then praise future best queen Sansa - who has done absolutely nothing as a leader and has instead thus far served as an uncritical narrator to events around her. We don’t know what kind of leader Sansa would be because she has never been put in those situations or even shown an aptitude for strategic thinking.

Let me use an example I came across while recently re-reading ADwD and TWoW sample chapters. TWoW spoilers - if you don’t want to be spoiled on TWoW, please read no further.

-------------------------------------------------------

In ADwD, Jon is confronted with food shortage if they let the Wildlings through the wall:

“If we had sufficient coin, we could buy food from the south and bring it in by ship,” the Lord Steward said. We could, thought Jon, if we had the gold, and someone willing to sell us food. Both of those were lacking. Our best hope may be the Eyrie. The Vale of Arryn was famously fertile and had gone untouched during the fighting. - Jon Snow, ADwD

I have already written extensively on Jon’s political know-how of the North and using it in his strategizing and planning of Stannis’ campaign. But here we see that his knowledge extends to the south, where, knowing that the Vale stayed neutral during the WOT5K and it’s geography of being fertile, he sees it as a possible source to buy food for the Wall.

Now let’s go to the Vale in book 6, TWoW, Alayne’s sample chapter. After being called a bastard by Harry the Heir, a hurt Sansa goes looking for Littlefinger and chances upon a scheme of price gouging:

Near the bottom, she heard Lord Grafton’s booming voice, and followed.

“The merchants are clamoring to buy and the lords are clamoring to sell,” the Gulltowner was saying when she found them. Though not a tall man, Grafton was wide, with thick arms and shoulders. His hair was a dirty blond mop. “How am I to stop that, my lord?”

“Post guardsmen on the docks. If need be, seize the ships. How does not matter, so long as no food leaves the Vale”

“These prices, though,” protested fat Lord Belmore,”

“These prices are more than fair. Wait. If need be, buy the food yourself and keep it stored. Winter is coming. Prices must go higher.”

“Perhaps,” said Belmore, doubtfully. “Bronze Yohn will not wait, ” Grafton complained. “He need not ship through Gulltown, he has his own ports. Whilst we are hoarding our harvest, Royce and the other Lords Declarant will turn theirs into silver, you may be sure of that.”

“Let us hope so,” said Petyr. “When their granaries are empty, they will need every scrap of that silver to buy sustenance from us. And now if you will excuse me, my lord, it would seem my daughter has need of me.”

“Lady Alayne,” Lord Grafton said. “You look bright-eyed this morning.” ” You are kind to say so, my lord. Father, I am sorry to disturb you, but I thought you would want to know that the Waynwoods have arrived.”

We are now in book 6 territory, this would be the point where a future queen/leader Sansa reflects on what she just saw - Littlefinger is hoarding grain and letting Royce and others sell theirs so that he can later increase the prices for demand from a starving populace and have the rest of the Vale Lords be dependent on him and with winter coming, there is currently much demand for the grain.

This would be where, if GRRM is writing for the future leader of the North, Sansa would wonder what is happening in the North with respect to the food situation since she just heard that merchants are clamoring for grain and winter is coming. Or she would think on LF’s scheme - is it a good plan or a bad plan? Does she think that Yohn Royce is right to sell his grain? What is her view on hoarding all the food for price gouging while people possibly starve elsewhere? What does she think of starving the populace for profit? Does she approve? Or does she think it’s ethically wrong?

We get no answers to these questions to give us a hint of what kind of ruler future best queen Sansa will be. It’s a blank slate because while Sansa acts as a narrator here and describes one of LF’s little schemes, she herself as no opinion on it. Instead Sansa’s immediate concern when speaking to Littlefinger is that Harry the Heir called her a bastard in front of everyone. Meanwhile Dany in ADwD:

Skahaz had been named Warden of the River, with charge of all the ferries, dredges, and irrigation ditches along the Skahazadhan for fifty leagues, but the Shavepate had refused that ancient and honorable office, as Hizdahr called it, preferring to retire to the modest pyramid of Kandaq.

Mounted men were of more use in open fields and hills than in the narrow streets and alleys of the city. Beyond Meereen's walls of many-colored brick, Dany's rule was tenuous at best. Thousands of slaves still toiled on vast estates in the hills, growing wheat and olives, herding sheep and goats, and mining salt and copper. Meereen's storehouses held ample supplies of grain, oil, olives, dried fruit, and salted meat, but the stores were dwindling. So Dany had dispatched her tiny khalasar to subdue the hinterlands, under the command of her three bloodriders, whilst Brown Ben Plumm took his Second Sons south to guard against Yunkish incursions.

The most crucial task of all she had entrusted to Daario Naharis, glib-tongued Daario with his gold tooth and trident beard, smiling his wicked smile through purple whiskers. Beyond the eastern hills was a range of rounded sandstone mountains, the Khyzai Pass, and Lhazar. If Daario could convince the Lhazarene to reopen the overland trade routes, grains could be brought down the river or over the hills at need …

The sea provides all the salt that Qarth requires, but I would gladly take as many olives as you cared to sell me. Olive oil as well."

"I have none to offer. The slavers burned the trees." Olives had been grown along the shores of Slaver's Bay for centuries; but the Meereenese had put their ancient groves to the torch as Dany's host advanced on them, leaving her to cross a blackened wasteland. "We are replanting, but it takes seven years before an olive tree begins to bear, and thirty years before it can truly be called productive. What of copper?"

Sansa does not come anywhere close to Dany and Jon in terms of leadership and that she’s so often pushed as this future queen in fandom, including by bnfs and so called asoiaf experts, is baffling, frustrating and hilarious.

What, if any, attributes does Sansa have to even be a peacetime ruler? After the war means rebuilding from scratch, making deals, hard bargaining, strategizing, using political tools, rebuilding the economy for war torn lands, get in the food, grow the food - precisely the kind of thing Dany is doing in Meereen. Or Jon thinking of building green houses in the Gift to grow food.

But Sansa building a snow model of Winterfell means that she’s the best qualified peace time ruler? Reddit dudebros and so called tumblr feminists united in wanting female characters who wield soft power and uphold the patriarchy as future rulers.

Even when it comes to personal growth, while Sansa has come a long way from her AGoT days, she still has some catching up to do with her peers. After getting hold of LF, Sansa complains that Harry is a horrible person for calling her a bastard.

Come,” Petyr said, “walk with me.” He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. “And how was your first meeting with Harry the Heir?”

“He’s horrible.”

“The world is full of horrors, sweet. By now you ought to know that. You’ve seen enough of them.”

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.”

Now, personally, this is the point where I would like some introspection from Sansa. Remember when Sansa called out Jon as a jealous bastard in front of her friends in AGoT and Arya defended him?

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he's a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

“Our half brother,” Sansa corrected, soft and precise. - Arya, AGoT

Considering the way Sansa ignored Joffrey’s attack on Arya, it’s a good bet that if Harry the Heir had called out Jon Snow as a bastard in front of everyone in AGoT, Sansa would not have an issue with it. Now that she is being insulted as one, she gets to experience the hurt that Jon felt everyday growing up in Winterfell as a real bastard.

But even here, she refuses to scrutinize the situation more than simply getting angry at being called a bastard. Sansa is often held up as this compassionate, kindest person, ‘beacon of hope for the future’, a queen who cares for the masses etc. But where is her questioning why the classist prejudice against bastards is in itself wrong?

She is angry that she is being called a bastard, she is not angry that bastards are treated as less than. She doesn’t question the societal prejudice against bastards, only angry that she has to pretend to be one and be insulted as one. She doesn’t spare a second reflecting on her bastard brother Jon Snow or question her low opinion of bastards:

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn’t been some mistake. - Sansa, AGoT

And that’s the difference I see between Sansa and characters like Dany, Arya, Jon, Brienne and even with Tyrion and Penny. While GRRM interrogates Westerosi society prejudices, feudalism, classism, sexism, slavery, ableism, bigotry, the effects of war on the small folk etc with these other characters, Sansa rarely reflects on these issues. That’s why it makes no sense when epithets like ‘embodiment of hope for the future’ is used to describe the character. Hope for whom? The small folk? The patriarchy? The feudal lords?

Sansa being nice to people like the stuttering Ser Wallace is held up as her being the kindest ever. But Jon is nice to Shireen, Arya is kind to Weasel, Jaime is kind to Tyrion. Why is kindness and compassion only highlighted for Sansa, like some unique feature of hers when many characters, even the villains, exhibit kindness?

This is Jon Snow in ADwD

“I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?” He laughed. “If you mean to kill me, do it and be damned for a kinslayer. Stark and Karstark are one blood.”

“My name is Snow.”

“Bastard.”

“Guilty. Of that, at least.” - Jon Snow, ADwD

This is Sansa Stark in TWoW:

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”

“Yes,” she said, “but why must he be so cruel? He called me your bastard. Right in the yard, in front of everyone.” - Alayne, TWoW

Sansa in TWoW is as hurt by the bastard moniker as Jon Snow was in AGoT when addressed as such by Tyrion. She’s emotionally where Jon Snow was in AGoT, while Jon has matured enough to not care for such insults anymore. And this is book 6! I guess it makes sense considering Jon is 16 -17 and Sansa would be 13 - 14 years old, making her younger than him in AGoT. But this is why the whole ‘Jon should take Sansa’s advice to rule because she’s the smartest ever!’ trash the show pushed to hype up Sansa is complete nonsense.

I don’t know how many chapters GRRM will be devoting to Sansa in the Vale in TWoW, but there’s still a lot of growth and character development pending for book Sansa. As I have always said, Sansa has a lot of information but she rarely if ever introspects on what she has heard and seen. She knows that LF last had Jeyne Poole but at one point wonders where Jeyne Poole is... Just ask LF dammit! She knows that Lysa had Jon Arryn poisoned on LF’s say so and knows that SweetRobin is being dosed with dangerous levels of Sweetsleep and that LF is banking on his death and yet thinks that SweetRobin will be okay. She needs to start putting two and two together to come up with four and I suspect that in itself will take up the whole of TWoW.

So will Sansa become any kind of queen or ruler? No. If she survives the books, I can see her being Lady of the Vale and be moving the chess pieces around. I can see her gaining agency and maybe even be the real power in the Vale aka Littefinger. Just like Jon, Arya, Bran and Dany I think Sansa will be a darker character in TWoW. The game of thrones cannot be played honorably and she will need to get her hands dirty to outwit LF and take him down at his own game.

The point where Sansa simply stops narrating what she sees and actually starts analyzing what she sees in her POV chapters is when the student will become the master and I am excited to see that happening.

#asks

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butterflies-dragons · 4 years

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Daenerys's heart is a dragon not like Cersei's heart who was Tommen has belong to someone else, and even Sansa's heart will be herself.

I got this ask in reference to this post that I wrote back in 2017, especially this quote:

Someplace no stag ever found … though a dragon might.

—A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

I don’t really get your message Anon, I didn’t mention Dany’s or Cersei’s heart in my post. So, I will repeat my point for anyone interested:

“Where?” Brienne slapped another silver stag down.

He flicked the coin back at her with his forefinger. “Someplace no stag ever found … though a dragon might.” Silver would not get the truth from him, she sensed. Gold might, or it might not. Steel would be more certain. Brienne touched her dagger, then reached into her purse instead. She found a golden dragon and put in on the barrel. “Where?”

—A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

From this last quote I want to rescue this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.” These words are talking about stags and dragons, not silver and gold, just the animals that the coins bare on one side. The stag is the sigil of House Baratheon and the dragon is the sigil of House Targaryen. And this makes me think about the Tourney at Ashford Meadow, where the first and the fifth of its final champions belonged to these houses. And according to this theory: “When you look at the names of the champions’ families and the fact they fight for a 13 year old maid, especially with the family Hardyng, we find out that they correspond strongly with Sansa’s suitors in A Song of Ice and Fire.” (*)

So, following the pattern established by the five final champions of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow, I believe that the stag in this line represents Joffrey Baratheon (Sansa’s first betrothed), while the Dragon who might find Sansa is Jon Snow, the Targaryen Champion (Sansa’s actual betrothed). This last idea is going to be developed throughout this post.

(*) I would like to make some precisions: 1) The events of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow developed in ‘The Hedge Knight’ novella. 2) The champions are the final five after the first day of jousting. We don’t know the results after the second day of jousting and the third day was the Trial of Seven. 3) The queen of love and beauty at the beginning of the tourney was the 13 years old daughter of Lord Ashford. The champions weren’t fighting for her, the final five champions after the third day of jousting would decide if they crowned a new QoLaB or not.

(…)

Let’s go back to this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.” In the text the word ‘someplace’ refers to where Brienne’s supposed “sister” is -the beautiful highborn maid of three-and-ten that has blue eyes and auburn hair-. But in the history of ASOIAF universe, the word ‘someplace’ could also refer to the heart of a Stark girl.

Joffrey and Jon, Jon and Joffrey. I have a theory about them, I called it the ‘JoJo Theory’. Maybe one day I will turn my thoughts on them into words. But for now, let’s talk about these two in relation to Sansa.

Joffrey and Jon are supposed to be the sons of two best friends: Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark respectively. But none of them are really that. And I think they both were living the other’s life. I mean, Joffrey took Jon’s real place in the world, as Jon took Joffrey’s.

Joffrey, who is supposed to be the trueborn son and heir of King Robert Baratheon, is truly a little shit bastard, the illegitimate child of Jaime Lannister. And he is the vicious, despicable type of bastard as well.

On the other hand, Jon who is suppose to be the baseborn son of Ned Stark, is actually the son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and the last Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne. And he is the very opposite of the vicious, despicable Joffrey. Jon is brave and has a noble heart.

Also note that the real fathers of Joffrey and Jon are the men who Cersei and Lyanna choose over Robert; that is to say: Jaime and Rhaegar.

So, reading again this line: “Someplace no stag ever found… though a dragon might.”, we know that in the past that line was true, as Robert Baratheon never found his way to Lyanna Stark’s heart unlike Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. And it could be true again, in the future, as Joffrey (no stag) never really found his way to Sansa’s heart, but Jon (who is also a dragon) might do. Let’s see:

His half sisters escorted the royal princes. Arya was paired with plump young Tommen, whose white-blond hair was longer than hers. Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

—A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon was obviously jealous of Joffrey, in the same fashion he was of Robb. Joffrey was ‘trueborn’, a royal prince, the heir of the Iron Throne, with a place of honor at the table just below the dais where the King and Queen were seated, handsome, taller than him despite being younger, and on top of all that, Joffrey got the beautiful radiant girl by his side. Jon just couldn’t believe why, while having all of that, Joffrey and his pouty wormy lips gave Winterfell’s Great Hall a bored and disdainful look.

You don’t believe Jon was jealous of Joffrey? Read this then:

“Then you saw us all. Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen, Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and Bran and Rickon, my sisters Arya and Sansa. You saw them walk the center aisle with every eye upon them and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated.”

“I remember.”

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” He leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

—A Storm of Swords - Jon

I know that in this scene, Jon was trying to convince Mance that he really wanted to join the freefolk. He was trying to deceive him and infiltrate into the enemy’s camp. Despite that, the things Jon said to Mance at that moment, rang true. So in the end, Jon did convince Mance and he ended up joining the freefolk, as a covert mission entrusted to him by Qhorin Halfhand.

Still you don’t believe me when I said Jon was jealous of Joffrey? Listen to Sansa herself then:

“What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He’s very gallant, don’t you think?”

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

—A Game of Thrones, Arya I

Now tell me that Jon saying ‘Joffrey looks like a girl’ is not proof enough of Jon Snow being obviously jealous of the crown prince.

But Jon Snow who knows nothing, except, maybe, that Joffrey is truly a little shit, has no idea that Joffrey was living his life.

And his sisters cousins, Sansa and Arya, unbeknownst to him, expose this truth to Ned while talking about Joffrey’s hair color (note that Ned always knew who Jon’s real father is):

“Father, I only just now remembered, I can’t go away, I’m to marry Prince Joffrey.” She tried to smile bravely for him. “I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.”

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

“He is!“ Sansa insisted. “I don’t want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We’ll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you’ll see. I’ll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he’ll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion.

"Arya made a face. "Not if Joffrey’s his father,” she said. “He’s a liar and a craven and anyhow he’s a stag, not a lion.”

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

"All three are Jaime’s,” he said. It was not a question.

“Thank the gods.”

The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon’s tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

“A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?”

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

I can clearly imagine Ned thinking about how he had to hide Jon Snow, the heir of the Last Dragon, as his bastard; while Joffrey, an actual bastard, was living the life that could have been Jon’s, had Rhaegar prevailed over Robert.

This kind of ‘switched at birth’ case between Jon and Joffrey and the possibility of Jon being Sansa’s fifth Targaryen betrothed, is actually foreshadowed in the Books. Let’s read this passage from Sansa’s first chapter in ACOK:

The morning of King Joffrey’s name day dawned bright and windy, with the long tail of the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds. Sansa was watching it from her tower window when Ser Arys Oakheart arrived to escort her down to the tourney grounds. “What do you think it means?” she asked him.

“Glory to your betrothed,” Ser Arys answered at once. “See how it flames across the sky today on His Grace’s name day, as if the gods themselves had raised a banner in his honor. The smallfolk have named it King Joffrey’s Comet.”

Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.”

“King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son,” Ser Arys said. “He is the dragon’s heir—and crimson is the color of House Lannister, another sign. This comet is sent to herald Joffrey’s ascent to the throne, I have no doubt. It means that he will triumph over his enemies.

"Is it true? she wondered. Would the gods be so cruel? Her mother was one of Joffrey’s enemies now, her brother Robb another. Her father had died by the king’s command. Must Robb and her lady mother die next? The comet was red, but Joffrey was Baratheon as much as Lannister, and their sigil was a black stag on a golden field. Shouldn’t the gods have sent Joff a golden comet?

— A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

See? From “Glory to your betrothed,” to “King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son” “He is the dragon’s heir” Every word from Arys Oakheart’s mouth evokes Jon, not Joffrey. Joffrey is not a dragon, far less the dragon’s heir; he’s not even a stag.

If Joffrey had truly been the son of Robert Baratheon, he indeed would have had a bit of Targaryen blood, because Robert’s grandmother was the Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, but that’s not the case.

And the red comet could never be ‘Joffrey’s Comet’ as Sansa correctly pointed out when she said: “Shouldn’t the gods have sent Joff a golden comet?” The servants were right; the red comet was related to dragons, just as the person who knows everything in ASOIAF stated emphatically:

Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season,” he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right.

Though Old Nan did not think so, and she’d lived longer than any of them. “Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.

Hodor said only, “Hodor.” That was all he ever said.

—A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Sadly the last part of this passage from Sansa’s first chapter in ACOK, also foreshadowed the Red Wedding. The Lannisters once more would take her family from her; this time Catelyn and Robb.

But let’s stick with the good part, the part where she is called the betrothed of the dragon’s heir, that is not Joffrey, but Jon Snow, her own Dragonknight, her Black Knight of the Wall, her dark haired prince hiding in the north. We can only hope that this time the betrothal will end in a real marriage, because Sansa’s betrothal record isn’t so good thus far:

Joffrey Baratheon (the Psychopath Bastard), the betrothal was broken.

Willas Tyrell (the Cripple), the betrothal was cancelled.

Tyrion Lannister (the Imp), the marriage was not consummated.

Harrold Hardying (the Arse), the betrothal still stands but the bride is Alayne Stone.

Jon Snow (is dead but on the third day he will rise again from the dead).

But against the odds, I believe Sansa will wear a Targaryen Cloak, and under that protection, she will slay her enemies.

***

I wrote this three years ago. I think it needs some adjusting here and there, but the main idea is there and I hope this time is clearer.

Good night.

#anon ask #jonsa

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elegantwoes · 4 years

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What are your top 5 Sansa moments?

In no particular order:

But when the septon climbed on high and called upon the gods to protect and defend their true and noble king, Sansa got to her feet. The aisles were jammed with people. She had to shoulder through while the septon called upon the Smith to lend strength to Joffrey's sword and shield, the Warrior to give him courage, the Father to defend him in his need. Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him. (ACOK, Sansa V)

I like this scene because it’s such a beautiful contrast to Sansa’s behavior earlier in this chapter. Even though she hopes Stannis would win she still wishes Tyrion well, despite him being mean to her Sansa hopes that Sandor finds peace, and she prays for the soldiers on both sides. This moment shows that there’s a limit to Sansa’s kindness. As much as I love and admire it when Sansa is merciful and kind, I also enjoy it, if not sometimes more, when Sansa is all unforgiving, vengeful, shows her anger, and unkind. It makes her more human and multifaceted. If only this fandom could accept she has such a side and still can be kind and a good person. Instead they condemn her and put her in the league of the worst criminals in ASOIAF.

"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.""I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me. (ACOK, Sansa VI)

There are no words to describe just how much I love this moment. Here we have Cersei trying to force her rather fucked up philosophy onto Sansa, and Sansa gives a beautiful and elegant no. It takes a special kind of bravery and inner strength to stand up to your beliefs while you face adversity. Sansa does this multiple times to both Cersei and Sandor Clegane and gives us several iconic quotes:

The silence went on and on, so long that she began to grow afraid once more, but she was afraid for him now, not for herself. She found his massive shoulder with her hand. "He was no true knight," she whispered to him. (AGOT, Sansa II)

and

There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies. (ACOK, Sansa IV)

Sansa is so delightfully stubborn and aggressive in her morals and beliefs in her ACOK chapters and more people should admire and appreciate her for that. Especially since she is doing this at the age of twelve. Adults twice and even trice her age in ASOIAF don’t have half the bravery and strength Sansa has. It’s moments like these that establish what kind of heroine Sansa Stark is.

As he moved behind her, Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won't. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?

I have loved this scene for a very long time and it’s not hard to love it. This scene is perfect. Here we have Sansa being forced into a marriage she doesn’t want and can’t refuse. This is a moment of defiance, a moment to show she doesn’t agree with this farce of a marriage. It’s a moment where she musters what little dignity she has left. The best part of it is that later in one of Tyrion’s chapters he ascribes this moment to her being a Stark and I love the very sound of that. Furthermore this is also a moment where Sansa’s kindness hits a limit, and like I said before, I love moments where Sansa isn’t nice.

Sansa went to Ser Lancel and knelt beside him. His wound was bleeding afresh where the queen had struck him. "Madness," he gasped. "Gods, the Imp was right, was right . . .""Help him," Sansa commanded two of the serving men. One just looked at her and ran, flagon and all. Other servants were leaving the hall as well, but she could not help that. Together, Sansa and the serving man got the wounded knight back on his feet. "Take him to Maester Frenken." Lancel was one of them, yet somehow she still could not bring herself to wish him dead. I am soft and weak and stupid, just as Joffrey says. I should be killing him, not helping him.

This is such beautiful example of Sansa being merciful and kind. She might not consider it a good thing because of the abuse she has been suffering, but there will be a time and moment where Sansa comes to realize there’s great power in being kind. That being merciful isn’t a bad thing. And I think Lancel could play a part of Sansa coming to that realization. Something tells me he will play a part in the annulment of her marriage.

It had frightened her then, and it frightened her now. “It is wider than it looks,” Mya was telling Lord Robert in a cheerful voice. “A yard across, and no more than eight yards long, that’s nothing.” “Nothing,” Robert said. His hand was shaking. Oh, no, Alayne thought. Please. Not here. Not now. ... Alayne took Robert’s gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. “Sweetrobin,” she said, “I’m scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you’re not afraid.” He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. “I’m not?” “Not you. You’re my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin.” “The Winged Knight could fly,” Robert whispered. “Higher than the mountains.” She gave his hand a squeeze. .... “Ser Sweetrobin,” Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them.

Several things happen in this chapter and I love everything about it. Little Robert was about to have an epilepsy attack but Sansa stopped that by grabbing to his hand and saying the right words for that moments. First of this shows that Sansa has very quick wits. If she was a moment too fast or slow both she and Sweetrobin would have fallen to their deaths.

Secondly this is such sweet moment between Sansa and Sweetrobin. I love their scenes in general, but this moment right here captures perfectly what Sansa has been trying to do for Little Robert in her AFFC chapters and the TWOW sample chapter. She’s helping him build his confidence and maturity so he can be a proper Lord of the Vale and Warden of the East. It’s also because of this why Sansa chose to give him sweet sleep earlier in this chapter. It was to preserve little Robert’s reputation as liege lord. It’s sad, but also expected, that this fandom chose to misconstrue Sansa’s motivations in regard to Sweetrobin.

Thirdly this scene right here is such a beautiful contrast to Catelyn in AGOT and, unlike Sansa, she didn’t have a small child who is prone to have epilepsy attacks along with her on the road. Now under no circumstances am I saying that Catelyn was weak in that moment, because we all know she isn’t. Catelyn is a source of strength for both Sansa and Arya. Catelyn has a lady’s strength, a woman’s bravery, and Sansa, who is very much her mother’s daughter, has shown multiple times in her chapters that she has both of these things. However this moment right here feels like a foreshadow. A promise that Sansa will give a whole new meaning to a lady’s strength and woman’s bravery in TWOW and ADOS.

#books-laughter-love #Sansa Stark #answering this question was a lot harder than I expected #I had to think long and hard before I chose these moments #that's why I took my time answering this #so sorry for the really late reply

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falconstarfall · 4 years

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Grrm made Sansa arya's foil in agot. Look how they like different things in that book. But he uses Sansa to prop up Arya n made Arya underdog. Jeyne Sansa's friend said Arya horse face implies that jeyne is bad n Arya is good for not mean to her bcoz jeyne is below station to Arya. He continuously using Sansa n jeyne to prop up Arya.

I’m taking the liberty of answering these together, so as not to spam people too much. I think two are from the same anon anyway, so I hope that’s okay.

My short answer is that yes, I think it’s perfectly clear that he did that. GRRM does seem to have a preference for the classic fantasy warrior-tomboy-princess-trope that I think is the reason why he makes readers sympathize with Arya at the expence of Sansa. But I also think it’s a mistake when people (*cough* antis) take this to mean that Sansa is a villain, or just insignificant and only in the story to support Arya’s arc.

GRRM indisputably starts out by POV trapping Sansa. She is also the only Stark POV that doesn’t get any Winterfell chapters. No interactions with siblings other than Arya (how about Bran who she seems to have been closer to? Or Robb, her much admired older brother?) to soften Arya’s biased description of her. And in her chapters with Arya - who is supposed to have the reader’s sympathy - he always seems to write Sansa as being in the wrong.

We don’t get insight into Sansa’s anticipation and fears about leaving Winterfell, or how anxious she is to give a good impression and please the people that are going to control her future - GRRM doesn’t spell this out, but just leaves it to the reader to figure out (or not figure out) that she must be feeling all these things (and this is how we get such enlightened takes as “Sansa doesn’t have any insecurities or self esteem issues, because she knows she is beautiful”). I think the one thing the show did better in regards to Sansa (and Ned’s character too) was showing that Ned was actually aware of the predicament Arya’s fight with Joffrey had put Sansa in.

GRRM doesn’t just use Sansa to set her up against Arya, though. He also uses her very deliberately to move some of his POV characters to where he needs them. I won’t get too much into this, but Sansa going to Cersei wasn’t necessary for Ned’s downfall. It was, however, a method to get both Sansa and Arya where he wanted them - a way that seemed more realistic than Ned just being so oblivious that he didn’t even try to get them out of KL at all. And GRRM spends a significant part of Sansa’s chapters on building up her motivations for this to happen.

I think that when antis talk about how Sansa is a foil for Arya, what they really mean is that this is the thing that defines her character, and that the only reason she is in the story at all is to be pitted against Arya and eventually loose. It clearly isn’t.

Even as early as AGoT, GRRM does put some effort into Sansa’s character development, especially towards the end. He shows the reader her courage in begging for her father’s life. 11 years old, and in a room full of hostile people. You think Arya is brave for fighting? This might be a different kind of bravery, but no less valid! He also shows us her anger and spite when she contemplates killing Joffrey.

And the thing is: GRRM always knew that there were going to be more books in the series. Sansa certainly seems to have grown on him more once he began developing her more a sympathetic character. But even early in AGoT it seems clear to me that he is laying the foundations for developing Sansa further (as a sympathetic POV character) in the following books.

Sansa clearly wasn’t meant to come across to the reader as the most sympathetic in AGoT. But least sympathetic among the four Stark children POV’s is actually a pretty high bar. If GRRM had really intended Sansa to be just the mean girl archetype - the evil step sister to Arya’s Cinderella that fandom seems to think she is - he could have easily written her that way. But then he didn’t.

There are so many examples of how GRRM - even when he is pitting Sansa against Arya or having her accidentally spill Ned’s plan to Cersei - is always giving the reader amble explanations to why this is happening. Explanations that have nothing to do with Sansa being mean or selfish. Let’s look at the following:

He could have written her being antagonistic with Arya in Arya I. But he didn’t. He made it into a textbook example of the POV trap instead. Sansa is nice to Beth, answers Arya’s (pretty rude) comments politely, tries to deflect. The only thing she does that can be perceived as... not so nice is call Jon out on his jealousy. The rest is all happening in Arya’s head.

He could have written Sansa trying to force Arya to “conform to patriarchy” the way antis say. Instead he gave us Sansa acting out the septa’s orders, rather annoyed and sure she is going to fail. And he showed us how the Septa is putting down Arya in front of Sansa to give the reader a very clear reason to why Sansa is thinking about Arya the way she is.

GRRM could easily have had Sansa be mean to Arya before Lady died. But he didn’t include Sansa when Arya thougt about Jeyne calling her “Horseface” (I’m still not sure about why he changed this later). Instead he used Lady as a catalyst to make their relationship worse, and the only textual examples we have of Sansa being antagonistic with Arya happened after Lady’s death when she was traumatized by the loss of her bonded “spirit animal”, and couldn’t bear to place the blame where it belonged.

GRRM put a lot of work into Sansa’s motivations for going to Cersei for help to stay in King’s Landing. Already in Sansa I we see how Sansa doesn’t understand that Ned isn’t correcting Arya the way her mother surely would have. We see how she loves life in King’s Landing, the tourney, going to court. We also see Ned wording his orders to Sansa in a way that never lets her know that there is any danger to them. We get the final - from Sansa’s POV - of Arya being allowed the things she wants, while Sansa is denied.

If GRRM meant for Sansa to be an antagonist in AGoT, I have to call Death of the Author, because that wasn’t what he wrote.

I think this is why antis are so focused on twisting GRRM’s words into meaning that he created Sansa as a villain (which is a word he never used about her himself - I think the worst he ever said was that she was “the least sympathetic”).

It’s hard to guess at GRRM’s original intentions with Sansa, because he is always deliberately vague when answering questions. But I have to say that if there had been no “original outline” where Sansa died, it would never have occured to me that he didn’t always intend to develop her in the way he did.

“But the outline!” The one about which GRRM said he was just making shit up to feed his publisher? At what point in the process was this written? Must have been pretty early, because already AGoT seems to deviate from it. Furthermore I’ve never really been able to grasp how people got villain!Sansa from that outline? Choosing her child over her family seems to me more like a tragic character that the readers would be supposed to sympathize with.

“GRRM said he came up with Sansa to create conflict!” I’ve never seen the actual quote where he said this. I have read it here, where it seems like someone is paraphrasing what GRRM said. The word “villain” (or “foil” for that matter) isn’t mentioned. To me it sounds like him describing how he was trying to create the Starks as a family with a realistic dynamic, not that he intended one particular child to be the instigating source of all discord.

GRRM might have overestimated his readers, especially the part of them that are used to reading more simplistic, tropey YA, but I think it’s a mistake to conclude that him POV trapping Sansa and using her as a tool to push the plot along in AGoT means that he didn’t already intend to develop her further at this point.

Of course it doesn’t really matter what he originally intended at all, so I can only assume the antis’ obsession with this is caused by a hope that if they can establish that Sansa was originally intended to end up evil and/or insignificant, then that must still be his intention. Nothing GRRM has said seems to indicate this. The show ending certainly didn’t indicate this. And isn’t that more important than what he said about how he developed his characters before he wrote them, or how he introduced Sansa in the first book?

#sansa stark #anti sansa antis #anti arya stans #anti arya stark #i seem to be calling her a fantasy trope a lot lately #i better elaborate a bit on that at some point #anyway grrm is a sexist old guy too #so no wonder if sansa wasn’t the first to catch his liking #i consider it rather a victory that she seems to have grown on him anyway #anonymous

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