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People holding the "How romantic it must be, to be imprisoned in a castle and made to squeeze out heirs" against Rhaenyra are... reaching.

First of all, the MOMENT she noticed Alicent's expression has fallen, she makes an apology. She holds Alicent's hand and gives her a softer look- because she didn't mean for her malcontent to harm someone, she was simply trying to express why she was so disillusioned she was with her courtship.

Yall forget that at this point, Rhaenyra and Alicent are still fully estranged. Alicent never told Rhaenyra that her meetings with and marriage to Viserys were her fathers plot. To Rhaenyras point of view, it was her best friend, who had only just before, dismissed Rhaenyras concerns of plots to remarry her father and supplant her (Alicent literally tells the NAMED HEIR that it isn't her place to question the plots of men. When it very much ENTIRELY is her place- as Rhaenyra proves when she settles the Dragonstone conflict without bloodshed or battle, in a way Otto could have NEVER accomplished.)- all whilst **being a part of one of those plots.** and we only see Viserys telling Alicent not to tell Rhaenyra after *six months* of meetings like that have passed. To Rhaenyra this looks like Alicent being a scheming traitor, like many people probably proved to be through her life- only caring about her in how they could use her to elevate themselves. And this was her best friend. The girl she studied with, the girl who comforted her after the loss of her mother, the girl who helped to give her strength before she was was named heir, the girl she wanted to fly across the skies with. She felt betrayed, and from her perspective, she has every right to feel so. (And she does)

Then for three years, Rhaenyra tried to have space from the people she felt had broken her trust, tried to act as heir and also to avoid marriage due to the terror of what happened to her mother. She isnt disrespectful or vitriolic in any scene we see- she just wants to be left alone to read books and listen to music, to continue to try and be heir even if she sees Ottos writing on the wall. And every opportunity they get, Viserys AND Alicent refuse to allow her that space. And we know from ep.2 that Otto likely took every opportunity he had to undermine her efforts as heir.

Alicent then has the boy that Rhaenyras mother was slaughtered for, and Rhaenyra is made to witness how the realm salivates for a child to replace her as heir all because of his genitalia. Hiw hard she has tried, whatever she has done or accomplished doesn't matter to the realm. Only her sex. At Aegons name day, Hobart Hightower calls Aegon 'second of his name' and 'the conqueror babe' literally SAYING how the realm sees him as their future king already- and no one does or says anything to correct him.

So her relationship with Alicent is strained. And Rhaenyra doesn't even know what we know as the audience, that Otto is actively whispering treason and conspiracy to Alicent and she at no point warns Rhaenyra or Viserys.

Furthermore, Alicent DID make the comment in the carriage on the way to the hunt of Aegons quick birth. I highly doubt she meant for that comment to come across as it did, but it doesn't change that the comment was a slap in Rhaenyras face, to the point even the maids looked judgemental. And there was no apology or effort made to soothe that sting.

Anyways.

Rhaenyra returns from her courtship tour, and Alicent approaches her. They have perhaps the first gentle moment between them that they've had in years. Alicent expresses how romantic she feels the tour was.

Rhaenyra, who has the pressure of having to choose correctly- because choosing wrong could result in a husband who uses her as a broodmare as her mother was, or in a man who only wishes to use her so that he can have power over the throne, who wishes to use her to elevate himself and would hope to use Westeros' patriarchal traditions to make her his puppet queen. And the options we are shown are.. a man old enough to have met her great grandmother, a child, and a slightly older snob of a boy who is promptly slain for insulting the child. Reminder, that Daemon was not an option, nor was Harwin, who Viserys mocked as an option in ep.3. Rhaenyra KNOWS these men only want her for her blood and the throne and she expresses her frustration with it. She expresses that the tour is anything but romantic- none of these men love her. None of them care for *her.* only her power. Only her blood.

And the MOMENT she realizes her comment hurt Alicent, she attempts to make amends.

Yall will do ANYTHING to make her seem like this spoiled rotten, nasty princess.... except pay attention to context and the reality of Rhaenyras position and nature.

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why do some people who don't choose team black or team green feel like they deserve a medal for staying neutral

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"tb's only argument is that rhaenyra was named the rightful heir" no, it's not, but you're really bitter we have that point don't you

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hotd as ao3 notes bc i was really bored at work yesterday lmao yes, i took some of them very literally

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call me dramatic but i would also come to die for the dragon queen

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why don't you get it? can't you get it? understand

they're gonna execute the mother to elevate the man

they're gonna propagate the killer, eliminate the youth

they're gonna blind date everyone until you love them too

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"alicent sacrifices her own interests and desires for rhaenyra's benefit" i know that misspelling happens but this is the weirdest way to write "otto" i ever saw / but more serious now:

let's not pretend that being rhaenyra's lady in waiting is some kind of punishment or nightmare job. in the universum we can see how only really highborn - and alicent is literally on the top as hightower if not counting valyrian houses - girls become ladies in waiting (apart of exceptions like eg dany's ladies who were more of lowborn handmaids or advisers) and it's a great way to find good husband and made connections. and that's usually the only way for girl to have good life - if she didn't want to join the faith - which is obviously not good thing but it apply to all lowborn and highborn girls, including princesses. otto used his position to give alicent that place at court and alicent, considering her possibilities and the fact all of it takes before her marriage, is in really good position, especially since rhaenyra treats her kindly. ofc there's power imbalance there but let's not act as if they weren't friends or as if rhaenyra were using her power over alicent. she did not sacrifices anything for rhaenyra as from lower class than princess and did nothing what didn't benefit her personally or her family but at the same time being good friend

okay so let's see what exactly alicent sacrifices in that relationship what rhaenyra doesn't:

- alicent teaches rhaenyra history - wrong, she has septa for it (they literally speak about septa in that very scene), it's also alicent's responsibility, as a highborn lady, to know history, they're literally friends in that scene, where one asks the other what she learned

- [alicent] dresses and crowns her for her investment ceremony - yeah, that's her job, unlike the moment when rhaenyra helps alicent to dress for her wedding... and talking about this power imbalance: rhaenyra as a princess helps person lower in hierarchy (alicent, not yet a queen), but alicent doesn't do the same when the power imbalance is reversed (when queen alicents doesn't help princess rhaenyra dress for her wedding with laenor). alicent being angry with her does not matter here, rhaenyra was also mad at her and yet still helped her

- [alicent] comforts her after her mother's death - we see more than once that rhaenyra cares for alicent's comfort, she notices and reacts when alicent's biting her nails, she comforts her when alicent is upset and we talk here about less serious subjects than death of a mother so we can be damn sure rhae was there for alicent when her mother died as well

- advises viserys against naming aegon heir - she literally spoke with her father and kids many times committing acts of treason because her point was to put aegon on the throne, one situation doesn't erase that and yet rhaenyra offers her to make helaena a queen, otto's blood on the iron throne (if i'll hear one "but she didn't want to risk helaena's life", she was bastardophobic, that what she was, as jace's wife helaena would be that much safe - besides the fact that she was never in danger, but we're in alicent's head let's say - cause why would rhaenyra get rid off girl, with obvious targaryen heritage in people's eyes, who would strengthen jace's claim? all danger was caused by the war and if not for alicent and otto there would be no war. lords like borros baratheon dgaf until aegon was crowned and lannisters wouldn't act by themselves)

- supports reconcilation between rhaenyra and viserys that ultimately gets her father and sole supporter fired - her father was fired because viserys finally realized that everything otto does is for his own power. but speaking about reconcilation, rhaenyra offered one to alicent and later was rejected. she had a reason? let's see, 15yo rhaenyra feels betrayed by her best friend and offers reconcilation 3 years later and she does that again after another 10 years. 19yo alicent feels betrayed and decides to torment rhaenyra to the point that rhae leaves king's landing for years

- seriously considers switching sides to her despite the severe risk to her own children - oh so she consideres not to commit a treason? good for her! rhaenyra AFTER being betrayed still considered to accept aegon's (otto and alicent's really) conditions just to keep the peace even though she know velaryon boys will be in more danger, dragon twins as well since they're daemon's daughters and nyra's supporters, and what more, after greens dared to ask for aegon and viserys to be send to king's landing... as hostages!!

- goes against her father to try and save her life - first thing rhaenyra offered in book was to pardon her siblings and anyway, only shows speaking, rhaenyra never showed any desire of killing her siblings, nor did any of her supporters say they will be killed (but perhaps daemon here who theoretically spoke about the possibility since the war was already ahead of them and treason already was committed)

it's really not that hard to watch the whole show and not only the parts that go with your narrative. their relationship was never of equals but rhaenyra never abused her power against alicent. the only moment it came close it was when rhaenyra pushed viserys to fire otto and it was not directed to hurt alicent but because rhaenyra felt - rightfully - threatened by otto

but when the roles were reverse we can see how alicent has no objections to use her power over rhaenyra - like when she sends for rhaenyra's babe (and basically drags her through the castle) while rhae is still in her labour

even just the way they address each other - in their youth they both use their names, alicent calls princess "rhaenyra", when she becames queen - she calls her "rhaenyra", she speaks about her - she calls her "rhaenyra". few times it happened alicent addressed rhaenyra as princess and it was mostly when they were surrounded by people like the council or when she speaks about her. but since alicent became queen rhaenyra mostly addresses her as "your grace", especially after 10y time skip. that's how they relationship works when power imbalance is in favor of rhaenyra and when the role are reversed (i saw some said rhaenyra as an heir was above queen, yet we saw rhaenyra explaining herself to alicent, receiving orders from her and not the other way around and the fact that alicent and otto was in charge of settling - of already settled btw - line of succession of driftmark and being here above the heir)

rhaenyra DOES NOT see alicent as her sidekick, in her dreams which she freely shares, alicent is by her side as her friend, though they both know it's nothing more than just dreams cause as ladies in westeros their future is already planned, although rhaenyra is more confident to speak against it especially after seeing alicent's life - when their balance is already reversed (though rhaenyra eventually also agrees to go with her future as planned, the thing is rhaenyra was in better situation thanks to her father, otto pushed alicent into viserys' bed - and both men are guilty for it - while rhaenyra had more control over it, it's not bc of their status, the status actually spoke AGAINST rhaenyra, she should have been married sooner in the eyes of many)

the real thing is it shouldn't be dispute at all, rhaenyra and alicent were never friends in book, alicent was aged down to make her more likeble and not power hungry queen who abuses child like she was in the book and to make their dynamic in the show "more interesting" while it pushes people away from main cause of the story which is rivalry about the throne between rhaenyra and aegon

Something striking about the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent that the show tries to awkwardly scoot past is that time and time again, Alicent sacrifices her own interests and desires for Rhaenyra's benefit, while Rhaenyra never does the reverse. Alicent teaches Rhaenyra history, dresses and crowns her for her investment ceremony, comforts her after her mother's death, advises Viserys *against* naming Aegon heir, supports reconciliation between Rhaenyra and Viserys that ultimately gets her father and sole supporter fired, seriously considers switching sides to her despite the severe risk to her own children, and goes against her father to try and save her life. The most Rhaenyra gives Alicent is a few hollow words of praise in episode 8.

Though the show doesn't seem to realize it, their relationship isn't one of equals, but of master and servant. Otto and Alicent are parallels in this sense - both are in a sense, servants of the Targaryens who do not wish to merely serve. But the show buys into the expectation of their service and Targaryen masterdom uncritically: the great crime of Otto and Alicent is their attempt to subvert the natural order of things rather than meekly serving their Targaryen masters. It's why Alicent is most sympathetic when she is loyal to Rhaenyra, but the reverse isn't true, because why would Rhaenyra be expected to do anything for a mere servant like Alicent?

Which really just goes to show the big class blind spot the show has. By presenting "goodness" as solely a function of how closely one can follow Viserys' orders, they're regurgitating one aspect of medieval social customs to oppose another. With this context, Rhaenyra and Alicent's relationship feels less healthy and a lot more like a premonition of Alicent's relationship to Viserys, with similar power imbalances. Rhaenyra and Alicent love each other, but Rhaenyra sees Alicent as a sidekick at best, doesn't take her seriously as someone with her own inner life and desires, and is sensitive to Alicent's perceived disobedience ("questioning my virtue is an act of treason.")

I think it also gives context to Criston and Alicent's relationship, given that Criston is *also* relatively low nobility, and a servant to the Targaryens, who feels taken advantage of by them, and whose great crime is trying to be something other than a servant, to *make* kings, not just to serve them.

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why do people watch the scene when lucerys says rhaenyra is perfect and their reaction automatically is "no boy, she isn't", yeah we know it and we should not care atm. it's luke's opinion. how much does it say about rhae??

she is so kind and loving mother. loves equally her sons from both fathers AND daemon's daughters. she taught them well and respects the children no matter for their age and gender, she supports them and helps with their future responsibilities

she clearly is good for people in the dragonstone cause her ladies were horrified and crying during her labor, every little scene we saw the people respect and like her, elinda massey is great example

she must be a good ruler, even if just on the dragonstone but we also know she was an active member of small council and has supports and sympathy of lords (those who are not against her just bc of her gender), especially those who know her personally like lord caswell or lord beesburry

she is perfect in the eyes of her kids and when luke says that, your instant reaction doesn't have to be "nah, she's not", bitch, did he ask for your opinion

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if you don’t like baela or rhaena that’s your problem take it up with god when he won’t let you in at the gates!

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the way some of tg says tb is boring cause they're loving perfect family who don't do anything interesting while greens is just better cause they're bunch of criminals but the moment anyone from tb commits any crime y'all like nope, i draw a line here, you're an awful person, nothing can excuse you and give a list of all terrible things tb did... as if seconds ago you didn't say they're "so perfect" and you prefer interesting flawed characters of team green who actually do something

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no because i hate aegon so much and i can't find him attractive, even though tgc is truly gorgeous and i thought well maybe it's because i'm biased cause aegon is little shit so i asked my sisters who didn't watch hotd what they think... "the actor clearly showers" skjdskskljadfs yup maybe that's it

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find the difference

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https://www.tumblr.com/lovl3igh/748217725348872192/team-green-in-new-promo-be-like-why-tg-should?source=share

These actors will literally be hated and bullied, what are you talking about? If you open Tom's interviews, he adores Aegon, Ewan adores Aemond. For God's sake…

appearances of actors aside cause they all are bullied for that, especially matt, ewan and emma and racists comments too (i'm saying that just to be clear, i will comment only on actors actions)

you mean the actors would be bullied for supporting tg and going against tb... like ewan for praising aemond? or tom describing how would he kill rhaenyra if he could? or olivia sympathizing with alicent? bffr

these are really some of least agressive tweets, but still negative towards tb actors:

calling real person a bastard for playing silly game (also harry was attacked for choosing maester over alicent but when ewan chose in one game daemon over alicent it was fine), making fun of their character's death, bethany was being eaten up for going tb while tgc did the same with tg and no one said a word, the insinuations that harry collett did sexual favors for the role of jace (mind you, he was 16!! when he landed the part and i'm not even gonna comment on harassing elliot that way, creating fanarts and ships luke x adult people with using 14yo elliot's face), being compared to animals, emma is being constantly insulted and misgendered by tg who hates rhaenyra and the same goes with phoebe cause they said one sentence in promo video...

i'm not saying tg cast don't experience that kind of behaviour, sure they do. while it's not true that they don't anymore speak praising their characters or tg cause they do, especially tgc. the truth is they didn't say anything here what would be worthy argument that aegon should be the king because it's simply not true. what could they say? "aegon is the man" doesn't matter, law of inheritance the crown doesn't work that way. "rhaenyra has three bastards" it's about her claim, not jace's. "daemon would be terrible consort, too close to power" sooo unlike aegon the rapist who actually would be a king? "rhaenyra slept with more than one man" you try to say it in 2024. what they can say?? the show and books clearly stated the greens are usurpers, the actors know their characters are wrong. ewan gave motives of aemond but the rest of them didn't even try that

i literally went on twitter to look for that kind of stuff and like i said - there's so many insults about actors' appearances but speaking only about their opinions about teams, what i see is team black that is being constantly attacked, especially the young ones and/or black actors. whenever they have their promo or speak well or team black there's always bunch of people who will attack them and i don't even count "they're boring" cause while it's stupid, it's not really an attack ig. while in case of bullying for appearance i don't go against one team, that's here it's very clear to me that tg stans many times crossed the line

actors still speak well on their characters and tg, so stop that bs, the problem here was that they didn't have anything to say. also sooo which one, they can't say anything to not be bullied or they show how much they love their characters? no mention that you can love a character and still see they're wrong lmao

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matt is just like me fr

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team green in new promo be like, "why tg should get the iron throne?":

tgc: idk the lease perhaps yeah my name is on the lease

fabien: no comment

ewan: *looking anywhere but not into camera* i have childhood trauma so maybe that

olivia: we have bigger dragons idk

i'm not saying they're all tb but they really don't try to support tg at all, it's giving "i'm aegon so i have to choose tg" so bad lmao

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sure you are free to leave your opinion, especially in such a kind and polite way

although you made few potentially right points (depends on interpretation of the show) I must disagree. firstly ep8 was not the first time when we see rhaenys going against lucerys' inheriting driftmark. 6 years before she declares she wants velaryon boys to be skipped in the line of succession knowing that if corlys declare it publically jace, luke and joffrey will be in bigger danger (and atm she was speaking about children all under 10yo!!). this is also the moment when she says they're not velaryons - does not matter it's only between her and corlys. she didn't threaten them publically but she tried and only corlys stopped her. when she speaks of luke as velaryon, she does that in front of vaemond reminding him they'd be dead if they say otherwise. it's the consequences against her that worry rhaenys here.

rhaenys absolutely has power to help protect the boys. viserys said it himself! the succession is settled, even if viserys didn't show up, the only way that otto could go against lucerys' right to inheritance if rhaenyra and rhaenys team up, would be to call out luke's legitimacy. otto would have to give a reason for giving driftmark to vaemond, what he'd say? "lucerys is not an adult yet"? - regency. "lucerys was not raised in driftmark"? - rhaenys/vaemond would be pointed to prepare him. they have no excuse. questioning luke's legitimacy is a treason and also even if people would not want to declare luke as their lord... there's still baela who was bigger claim than vaemond, has velaryon blood and is rhaenys' ward.

"i must stand alone" depends on interpretation exactly cause for me it meant that while vaemond has support of greens and luke support of blacks, rhaenys has no one to support her and baela's claim. but yeah it can mean that she doesn't want to go down with rhaenyra... except she also already declared to vaemond she will not go against corlys' decision so vaemond ending as the lord of driftmark automatically would mean she's in his disfavor. with luke as the lord she's still allowed to live in driftmark as well, but what more - luke is officially her grandchild, has nothing personally against her, rhaena would always support her, therefore it would be better for rhaenys to luke being the lord. and after her declaration against vaemond even if he'd have ended up with inheritance (as i said, really not possible) she'd have rhaenyra's grattitude. she can still live on driftmark AND is welcome on dragonstone. it maybe not comfortable for her but safe option and what matter for her is surviving.

also rhaenyra owes nothing to rhaenys for supporting the betrothal, simply bc it's not her decision to make, it's children's parents so nyra and daemon's. rhaenyra only seeks to calm rhaenys and wants her support for luke. yeah she says "let us betroth them" but they both know that she can give blessing and at the end of the day that's it. we betroth them, your granddaughters are in power, velaryon blood is still on driftwood throne. if that was the only matter, the blood, she'd accepte the proposal or even propose that herself years before (you can say there was fear that rhaena and baela would be in danger after marrying bastards. again - with daemyra's decision the marriages would happened anyway and the blood is not really a problem here. sure there are rumours but we saw in great council that the blood didn't matter that much, only the support - even saera's bastards sons showed up in the book for the council. and why would any lord support vaemond over next queen's son if they have nothing from it? so the circle is otto and lannisters at best, some from small council who want to usurp rhaenyra).

and ofc rhaenys doesn't fear corlys. but the chance that he'll come back - and as we know he does - are still pretty high. so what that vaemond would be called his heir? as soon as corlys is back he'd demand to change that again. and it's his law to do so, even otto can't go against it - AGAIN - because he would have to call luke a bastard and therefore die for treason.

rhaenys speaking with vaemond already showed she's against him - maybe not supporting luke but still. her supporting rhaenyra and luke before the hand only would play a favor to her and her granddaughters (my opinion) but she holds to her emotions against rhaenyra and daemon for killing laenor (also she wanted to change the line of succession before laenor's "death" so her decision then could not in any way be excused with her anger, and anyway it's still not luke's - or jace or joffrey - fault and yet she speaks of wanting to disinheriting him and therefore putting in danger)

her actions in dragonpit are actions in favor of rhaenyra - she wants it or not. rhaenys was asked to declare for aegon while she did exactly the other way. she's already on the warpath. dragonstone is not safe place for her or her granddaughters - because they're daemon's children, because they were raised by nyra and are loyal to her, because they're betrothed to luke and jace. the war started the moment alicent ordered to not inform anyone about viserys' death, when the greens decided to crown aegon, when they imprisoned rhaenys. killing greens - even with the kinslaying issue - is the only way to ensure everyone’s safety and book rhaenys would know that. that's why giving her that scene was senseless.

rhaenys really didn't give a shit that three boys will be in danger as long as driftmark would go to her / then baela didn't she? at least until viserys showed up so she changed her mind because;

1. she thought viserys gonna support rhaenyra anyway even if she'd say that corlys wanted driftmark to go to baela

2. if it was otto's decision she would be AGAIN dismissed bc she's a woman and driftmark would go to vaemond and then his sons instead of baela and with rhaenyra's offer at least rhaena would be lady of driftmark and then her line would rule for next years

3. even if she would won there's still would be daemyra against her and later rhaenyra on the throne, so people would still spread the rumours but ignore it officially so velaryon boys would still matter in the line of succesion, daemon and nyra would marry baela to luke so the driftmark would go with velaryon name thanks to luke anyway (in the matter of marriage it was daemyra's decision after all and twins were targaryen by name)

4. corlys would be pissed for ignoring his choice and also for endangering jace, luke and joffrey and there was still chance for him to come back

I'd give her points for announcing officially that jace and luke are betrohed to dragon twins so rhaenyra wouldn't back off but otherwise rhaenys was bitch right there. she does not have a prove that nyra killed laenor, the truth is it could all just daemon who after losing laena could see this as opportunity to be with rhaenyra

as far as rhaenys knows nyra was keeping laenor's secret and gave him sons he took as his own. if that was such big of a problem and rhaenyra was really so ruthless she'd killed him long time ago, before jace and then marry harwin (which now viserys would more likely agree to it, especially that harwin's status was better since his father was officially the hand and also nyra kept her part of a deal with marrying laenor and before that viserys let her choose her spouse). all rhaenys knows that laenor loved those three boys, corlys loves them and so the twins and she has a problem bc they're not directly laenor's blood. bitch. what those three boys did to you exactly to throw them under the bus dragon

rhaenys in books is so much better character, i don't like how creators made her inconsistent in the show (and looking at trailer, they keep going with that), how she switches and changes her mind to please anyone, mostly her husband, her killing people for badass moment but stopping at killing greens... if it was for kinslaying, she would take that to assure safety of baela and rhaena at very least, but it just wasn't her war to start and now we have consequences, while it was her in books who said to use dragons against greens. GIVE ME BACK MY BOOK RHAENYS

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"we needed her, we needed her army, her dragons" immadietaly followed by "i don't need many allies" must be the stupidest thing d&d put in arya's mouth through the whole series right after "i know the killer when i see one"