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I'm obviously not against the term 'transandrophobia' as a communal point of reference

But I think I do somewhat 'agree' with the idea it's a bad term / incorrect concept

I don't really think people are against / hate trans men, ie. transandrophobic, but I do think people are largely against / hate trans women

I do agree that trans men *theoretically* don't upset the patriarchy conceptually. But obviously I think there are practical reasons this happens anyway.

I don't think people are transandrophobic systemically, in a way that isnt just transphobia... But I do think there is a 'fear' of men losing power, or, more specifically of non-men gaining power.

No shit right. But idk I don't feel like I see this rationale in the topic much.

There's like... an event horizon, a schrodinger moment, where you are simultaneously One Of The Boys and also Human-lite Faggot.

Ultimately it's asking- Are you a threat to me?

It's not really about whether they see you as a man or woman, it's about the pecking order. Whose side are you on?

I don't empathise at all with trans men who talk about having male privilege because anyone a too faggy or too feminist gets that shit revoked the moment they speak up. You don't even have to be trans. You don't even need to be gay.

Isn't that exactly what some trans women mean when they say they didn't have male privilege before they transitioned? I don't disagree with that at all. That makes perfect sense.

You aren't playing by the rules, so you get disqualified, you forfeit your prize.

I couldn't give a shit about trans men who have male privilege. You're playing the game. You win your prize. Go fuck yourself.

Like, this concept doesn't have much to do with being a trans man. I've alluded to it before, but it's a more broad contradiction, a breaking of the rules- If a patriarchal system places men as oppresor, and non-men as oppressed, in order for it to perpetuate itself, non-men must not be able to gain power, and men must not be able to lose power.

Trans women exist? Well they're not men. Problem solved. Treat them like women- This is observed.

Trans men exist? Well either they are not men, and must be stopped from gaining power- the system breaks if non-men can just become men.

Or they are men– what happens then?

If they gain power, uphold the status quo, then they must be rightfully men and their power is deserved.

If they don't, but still have power, then they're taking away power from other men, by attacking the source of said power.

Patriarchy likes the theoretical perfectly passing always-stealth trans man, as another enforcer, and hates the more common, messy trans man

who threatens it by making manhood queer and non-patriarchal, who dilutes the position of power, who uses patriarchal power against itself, etc.

The hatred of trans men is less about transness or manhood inherently and more so about contradicting the system.

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Such a common bad faith argument about trans men vs trans women is to equivocate it to White vs Black. In reality, trans men's position here is more like being mixed race (Black and White in this analogy).

A mixed race person may benefit from colorism while their darker skinned relatives will not. That doesn't make them White. Being lighter skinned is a privilege, but it is not White privilege.

A mixed race person will face different kinds of dehumanization. A White person won't typically look at a fully Black person and ask them "what they are." White privilege comes without racist microaggressions.

We also cannot flatten a very diverse group into one box. The straw trans man that gets compared to White people is fully transitioned and perfectly passing. This is like using "mixed race" as a catch-all to mean people who can pass as White. Most mixed race people cannot pass as White and there are even some who appear fully Black (dare we even mention folks who are not mixed White at all?). Even a White-passing individual will face an erasure of their full identity; they are only White insofar as no one knows their family history. That is not White privilege.

Transandrophobes want to flatten every type of man into the oppressive group of Man™ even though that's predicated on being cis. They say that's "just transphobia, not misogyny", as though gendered oppression isn't about comparing everyone against cis men. From what I understand of transmisogyny, part of it is viewing trans women as a "failed men." By having been assigned female, trans men never live up to "true" (cis) manhood.

Saying trans men deserve no visibility is not like saying a White person should be excluded from a DEI program. It's like saying mixed race people should not be part of DEI programs because colorism exists. Colorism does not cancel out their need for support as a racial minority. Saying they need support should not imply that fully Black people do not need support, unless we're viewing this as a zero sum game where racism for darker skinned people can't exist unless we judge it against the privileges of the lighter skinned. It's a ridiculous notion when both of them are being judged by Whiteness and found wanting.

Much like we can call out colorism without accusing every mixed race person of benefiting (when many don't because again, this is a broad group of many differing individuals) and perpetuating it, I should think we could call out misogyny without treating trans men that way.

But what does any of this matter, to people who only care about the black and white.

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I dont really agree with or think some kind of, how do people phrase it, 'gender abolition' is possible or truly desirable, but much like peace and justice I think it is a worthy pursuit.

People would still be men and women in a gender equality utopia but it would also be not even noticeable or worth mentioning outside of a medical environment, because gender expression would be considerably more divorced from identity.

Idk how to explain. Like i do not fundamentally think there is a difference between men and women and i don't think anyone can actually tell what your 'true' gender is and I don't agree with any sort of idea of gender divination. I don't think people were odd about me because they somehow 'knew' i was a boything, I think I just wasn't conforming properly and that was noticeable. It is not surprising that being autistic and being trans has a lot of overlap.

You just... can't operate on a framework that says you can fundamentally tell the difference between men and women. Unless you also want to make pretty much every gay person stop being gnc, or every trans person to want to pass.

You can't even add a third category and ascribe traits to that as nonbinary, because binary people will have those traits too.

You've gotta cut the tree at the base and say and believe that we made all this shit up. It doesn't actually invalidate anyones identity. I think its actually really good to see even the most genderly cissest of expressions and have your brain say 'that could be a man or a woman or a nonbinary person or none of those things' not that I think you should *treat* people like that, but it should, ideally, (and I struggle with this so I'm not saying this is easy or possible for everyone) mean that if someone corrects you, you should be able to go 'that makes sense, I will see you as your gender from now on now that I know' and get back to what you were doing with that person.

The hardest part of getting people to respect you when you're trans, isn't the trans part. Most people are, at the surface, trans-positive. But getting them to actually, not just respect your identity, but to actually *see* it? Honestly, the amount of people who I feel do that is single digits.

They have never had to question their perception of gender before. They have no practice because they have literally never thought about it. It's not their fault. But it is a solvable, practiceable problem (that I struggle with still).

Some people at least add 'trans' to their internal categories, but this is still a problem because, what sorts of people 'look trans' to them?

You've gotta aim for complete dillution of what a man and woman is in your head. If you're ever corrected, the process of seeing someone as any possibility should be already done in your head. They just have to tell you and you should already be ready for them to be themselves. It's hard, but I really do think it's the best we can do. Because we cannot divine it.

There will always be people who look at me and misgender me by operating on defaults. But I would much rather this happen sometimes than for people to only correctly gender me because they're afraid to be told off or because they, well, correctly guessed my flavour of queer.

Neither of these 'correct' people actually see me as me. And that's what anyone really wants.

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Maybe an unpopular way of thinking, but I really don't mind when people, especially cis people, say things like 'if men had periods they would have gotten rid of them ages ago' or 'if men could get pregnant abortions and birth control would be legal and free'

I understand this can be dysphoric, and on bad days it can set me off. But I have rarely felt like people were saying this to me to be transphobic, in fact usually its more akin to solidarity– they don't mean it as 'youre not a man*', they mean it as something like... 'maybe theyll listen to you'.

Ie. I think it's implicit that people mean 'patriarchal / cis men' when they say men in these phrases. Arguing about the semantics is less important than going 'yeah, the patriarchys a bitch. I hope things get better *for both of us*.'

I'm sure people saying that men don't understand what women go through makes trans women dysphoric too, but that isn't (always) intended as transphobic. Sometimes when youre angry and frustrated, you choose your words poorly. And I think it's more important to understand that anger than to ask for clarification on whether they're mad at you or not.

Of course I think its good to advocate for more correct language that doesn't make anyone dysphoric. When things are cooled off and people are able and reay to listen.

I don't have much experience but most of the time people apologise if I point it out afterward or if its just an offhand comment they didn't think through, and sometimes it lets us have a good conversation about misogyny and transphobia and helps them feel listened to as well as feel like they're listening to me.

* I'm not a man but I am a trans man. Hell I can't even talk about myself without being a hypocrite, why should I expect women to be perfectly clear and intentional about their oppresion when I'm not even about mine?

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every time someone calls a cis man an egg because he decides to deviate even slightly from traditional masculine gender norms, an angel loses its wings

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im just so happy i live in a time period where actual meaningful biological transition is possible. even if we lose rights or the ability to exist in public, nothing can turn back the clock on that, and just by having any sort of access to that our lives are made immensely better. millions of our sisters throughout history would never have dreamed of a day where they could have what HRT does for us.

please don't lose the plot of this. if you're a trans person on HRT you're a living miracle, the dream of hundreds of millions of your ancestors. your lives are all deeply meaningful no matter what anyone says.

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I used to briefly call myself transmasc but I found it sort of wierd when I am undeniably so much more 'feminine' now. I dont really think of transitioning as becoming more masculine, masculinity is gender but I see (my) transitioning as, like, transsexual.

Instead of girl hardware running boy software its like... Adding boy drivers to my girl hardware and overclocking it. The software hasnt really changed. Its not even boy software I've got some linux alternative that like 5 people are using.

I Dont. Know how relatable that metaphor is

"I was a girl" doesnt mean my gender was a girl I have always been a genderless little rat that much is true. But I navigated the world on that premise. Its incorrect but useful like all models are

I describe myself as a trans man as its own thing separate to being a man because neither my gender or eventual sex is man. Trans man to me is like... Decompiling your man to run it on better machines.

Masculinity isn't really something that comes into play. Nor does femininity to be honest but I don't control how people gender corsets and thigh highs. I am agender and transsexual.

So yeah. Ironically being more nonbinary meant I didn't like the term transmasc. Idk how relatable that is but I like myself a lot more this way.

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I think its okay for trans people to have wierd gender hangups and think things that aren't good or are irrational about gender.

I think we should give more room for trans people to be a bit mean and awful actually.

Now I dont fucking mean being trans means its okay to be a raging misogynist but I am saying that some trans people are going to have irrational feelings on gender and the absolute worst thing to say, like any irrational thought, is that your feelings are irrational, baseless, insane etc. etc.

Trans woman hates men? Trans man hates women? Well no fucking surprise. Thats the cage and the whip and the chains.

I think trans people should be allowed to vent about their struggles with gender without the thought police coming around to make sure they aren't doing a misogyny or a man hating.

All it does is reinforce the thoughts and makes it so people can't get their feelings out. I know the internet is a public space but you have to not assume every post that upsets you is an attack on your identity.

The only reason I think hating men or women is not a healthy mentality is because I had a friend who listened to all my struggling and venting about all the many ways men and women have fucked over me and other people in my life, and instead of telling me I'm a sexist cunt, she made me feel heard and like I wasn't stupid or that my irrational feelings were wrong or bad.

Are you giving anyone struggling with these feelings that kind of time and space and understanding? Or are you seeing someones internet vents as public admittances of their intent to harm?

I think trans people should get to be cunts just as much any other person. If you can't stand up against a cis persons sexism and misogyny, then you're just doing a transphobia.

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Okay. I have seen enough posts and actual news articles being wrong about this.

Trans men are affected by the recent UK law bullshit.

Here is a link to the proposal, that was incredibly annoying to find.

Trans men are mentioned 39 times.

Let's be clear. This bullshit is fueled by transmisogyny. This is not a post about who has it worse. This is about informing trans people.

To summarise the (listed) ways this affects trans men:

About 1/3rd of the mentions is, to no ones surprise, about pregnancy, and defining trans men as women, so that trans men

Crucially this does not actually expand the rights of pregnant people, to, yknow, anyone of any gender. This is intentional. This reinforces that pregnancy only happens to women.

Before this, a trans man could be barred from pregnancy related healthcare on the grounds they are a man. Now, they are allowed this healthcare on the grounds they are a woman.

This. Is. Transphobia.

Do not speak about this as a privilege. The nectar of a venus fly trap is not a privilege to the fly.

The most blatantly negative effect of this ruling is that trans men can be discriminated against in women's sports, if they go on HRT.

This means that trans men who participate in women's sports cannot go on HRT. You see what that incentivises?

To be clear this was already basically what was happening. But now it's legal precedent! Yaaaaaay

There are some mentions I am not sure the meaning of. If I've missed something it's possibly one of those.

Now, a good few of these, I'll copy and paste the phrasing because I think they're self-explanatory, they "Transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men."

This is not because people love trans men. Again, do not speak of these as benefits. This is about treating trans men as women. About associating trans men with pregnancy. This is another hearing away from banning testosterone on the grounds of 'protecting children'. The taste of the nectar is intentional.

But these do explicitly strip trans women of rights, in favor of trans men. This post is not denying that. This is transmisogyny.

Again, this post is not a gotcha. It is about informing people. If you say some wierd shit about trans women hating trans men or vice versa I will block you.

I am just begging people to stop saying this does not affect trans men. This involves us.

If you are a trans man in the UK, you have a say, you are involved, you can do something about this.

Even if this was purely to trans men's benefit, we would still be involved, because we do not let ourselves be used to enact transmisogyny and stand by while our identity is invalidated. Right? Right.

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i love you bears i love you butches i love you trans men i love you transmascs i love you drag kings i love you masc queers of all persuasions the world is so much better and brighter for the existence of queer masculinity

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Don’t a let a little thing like being a boy keep you from being a girl

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Feel like I made a post about this. But i cant remember. Anyway.

One reason I dislike people switching pronouns for characters they think are trans / are trans-coded, is, the assumption that

1. if they're trans, they're gonna be binary

2. They will change their pronouns to the corresponding gendered pronouns only

3. That pronouns = gender and if you don't refer to a maybe trans character 'correctly', you're misgendering them / being transphobic

Yknow, just once I'd like a trans plot where they turn out to be nonbinary / multigendered. Why is transness super fucking binary in everything? Like nonbinaryness is less complex or emotionally dramatic a revelation? That being nonbinary is implicitly easier than being trans?

Like you get they/them pronouns and carry on with your life. That transness is some enduring burden, part of your story, while nonbinaryness is just an identity.

This is somewhat connected to egg bullshit. Like it's a spectacle. That you win some kind of points for 'saving' trans people. I feel like a lot of those sorts of speculations would be very disappointed if it turned out someone was nonbinary and doesn't 'transition'. Like trans people are pokemon youre levelling up to evolve, or a gacha to pop open.

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by the way, if you're weird about aromantic heterosexual cisgender men, i kill you. if that man wants a purely sexual relationship with a woman and communicates that with her, and she agrees, hell yes. good for them. you have no right to be a bitch about that. that's frankly none of your god damn business. he's not "emotionally abusive" for wanting a specific type of relationship. you're being stupid and weird. and weirdly misogynistic, by assuming that women are inherently these helpless victims that have no agency or autonomy.

you're literally being the "the myth of consensual sex" meme when you talk shit about cishet aro men in purely sexual relationships with women.

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It really shouldn't surprise me so much that 'men are human beings' pisses so many people off considering I myself was steeped far into into radical feminism enough at one time to be like, "Are they really, though?" but it is disappointing to see how the attitude has spread since I pulled myself back out of it.

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i dont really understand why people are so against ridding of the concept of AGAB/ASAB altogether in the name of "well, how would we define being trans then?"

a woman is "someone who identities as a woman." there is no other definition that does not exclude people who are women.

why does it make people uncomfortable to define trans people as "someone who identifies as trans"? trying to force it into some other definition will always exclude or include someone who either does or does not identify with the label. even if we are defining transness using AGAB/ASAB to say "someone who is transitioning away from/does not identify with their AGAB/ASAB", this is already true; there are GNC binary men who were AMAB who identify as trans and bigender women who were AFAB who identify as cis.

we do not need to keep around an oppressive concept that harms thousands of people in systemic and medical fashions because it would be harder to define some words. words that are used for identification are already going to be nearly impossible to define due to the complexity of human identity.

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Ruminating on Men as a social concept and nonbinaryness...

This is a wierd hot take but, not speaking in terms of identity, but in 'separation from patriarchal constructs of gender', I think more men are nonbinary than is thought, and this is an aspect of why it can be contradictory to discuss 'male privilege' and 'masculinity'.

The concept of being 'emasculated' does not actually make sense if sex / gender is immutable. If men will always be men, then taking away or threatening ones masculinity is not possible. Right?

In the same vein, women's masculinity being deemed unattractive, laughable, threatening, etc. does not make sense in terms of misogyny, without also considering that gender nonconformity is possible and undesirable in that framework.

Privilege under a patriarchy is a dangled carrot, not a categorical trait. There is... a distinction, between the Patriarch, and the Sons.

I think a lot of gendered violence stems from this... the dynamic of Power and Wanting Power...

I think it is true that a patriarchal system hurts men, but this is by design, a feature, not a bug... The incel mindset is equivalent to the temporarily embarrassed millionaire.

It's nonbinary in a sense. The punishment. I think this is also unsurprisingly why nonbinaryness is equated with femininity. It is emasculating to be further from the Binary.

Binaryness is not a given but a Worthy Pursuit, rewarded with Power.