#(i know there’s discourse about this and it’s very annoying)

[neosaidwhoa]

This reminds me of how the founders era sub fandom is the Naruto equivalent of the marauders sub fandom LMAOOO i love the collective creative power of fanon.

I really don’t think fanon is bad and I really don’t think death of the fandom is necessary though? And this is coming from someone who gets personally annoyed by some mainstream fandom mischaracterizations sometimes. Fandom and fanon is usually just a reflection of the kind of people who are in it. But I agree with your recommendation to not limit yourself to popular fanon trends.

I disagree with the statement that “the most authentic enjoyment of media comes from liking it for what it is and not what it *could* be”. I actually think imagining things beyond canon for “what it could be” is inherently an extremely authentic way to enjoy media. Transformative fan work that adds to or strays from canon is very important and meaningful for a lot of different reasons.

Also, I think context matters a lot for this conversation, maybe if I knew where you were coming from with these frustrations I would agree haha. I think for me, current mainstream Naruto fanon is very warped from the source material but I know that and enjoy some of it anyways, and I really enjoy the parts of fandom that think and write critically about both the source material and the fanon. Most of the people I choose to interact with also seem to enjoy both?

Ah, maybe my disagreement just comes from what I was thinking the definition of fanon is. I was thinking of fanon to mean “non-canon elements that are popularly accepted and used by fandom”, so it’s a given that fanon is not actually what happened. I realized maybe you were thinking of fanon to mean “non-canon elements that fandom popularly believes/insists is canon”? I would agree that I’d advise against trying to assert that fanon is canon. I’d recommend people not take fanon as truth and to study the source material itself if you’re interested in knowing what’s canon. I think this is what you were saying in your post, so I’m guessing you meant the second definition and I misunderstood you.

Anyways, all this makes me think of the Achilles and Patroclus top/bottom discourse that’s been spanning millennia (more specially discourse about their place in the erastes/eromenos dynamic) lol. The idea that they had sex or had this dynamic at all is fanon since it’s never said outright in the canon text they were referencing. But I’m glad all that fanon existed and exists and so much of the fandom activity around that particular element of fanon has been preserved for us to read about today.

death of the author yeah whatever but death of the fandom is so integral to enjoying legitimately anything like that is just a necessary step to take in ur head always. do not let them affect the text in any way exterminate them all with ur death ray. they r not real and cannot hurt u

[olderthannetfic]

I don't know how to tell you this but someone writing fixed t/b fics and saying they do that because that matches their lived experience is not erasing you or being rude to you.

People complain on their own fucking profiles about something they don't like in the current top/bottom discourse but y'all just wanna tell everyone how good it will be to have them switching.

Why are you in my replies? Why? Would you combust spontaneously if you don't say to a person who clearly ships fixed t/b that "it's so fun to have them switch from time to time though 😍😍😍"

I am in the patreon of an artist who has fixed t/b preference. It's on her profile in patreon. It's clear as day on her public social media profiles, she always draws only fixed t/b positions. And then she puts out a poll asking for ideas and people still come in and go "when will they switch?" "can they switch?" "it would be so fun if they switch!!" Is it harassment? No. But it's the equivalent of asking sushi at wendy's. It is the wendys! WHY ARE YOU ASKING FOR SUSHI??? Or it's just the artist draws them very beautifully and every other artist in our fandom ignores their height difference (like switch shippers by the way) and every other artist makes them both too buff even when none of them are in the canon and this one doesn't, so you feel entitled to their art and wanna make them cater to your interests? As if you're not the same people who yell about "fetishization" and "why are you tagging for t/b? That's fetishizing!!" Just like checks notes antis or other fixed t/b shippers who are too into their preference.

I am fucking happy you have your preference! But that's all there is - a preference. No one owes you making content for it. No one has to change their preference to include you. And no fixed preference shipper wants to hear how cool it would be if they make their content switch.

This is why people don't like you. Not because of some equality thing or whatever. Y'all are entitled and annoying as fuck.

--

[falmerbrook]

Thinking about that post from a few days ago about being too nervous to post fandom analysis type stuff out of fear of looking stupid... I think it's doubly so for old fandoms/media. Like, I got into elder scrolls (like, really got into it, not just running around in Skyrim every few months) about 3-ish years ago now. It's a 30 year old franchise. It says something about the series that we can still have interesting discussion and theory-crafting about it still, but that's 27 years prior to me of random lore tidbits being doled out in forums that don't exist anymore and fans theorizing about things that I wasn't around for. It can be quite a bit intimidating potentially interacting with other fans who have been here way, way longer than I have (hell, a rare few longer than I've been alive). Like, are there any original thoughts to be had at this point? Probably. But the question is how many of them am I experiencing.

[sweetmariihs2]

I was talking to @/camp-jupiter-demigod, only reblogged their post, unless that's your second blog and you two are the same person. I didn't read the other reblogs, only looked a bit through them and left, I don't really know what you said there.

"I haven't watched the video and idk if I want to 💀" but you probably saw the other 20 min one that someone made on YouTube saying those same things about the characters. This video is an analysis of that other one, debunking tons of biased statements that the girl from the 20 min video had made about Varian and Cass. It's alright if you don't wanna watch it, you do what you want, I just find it rather silly that you repeated the misinformation that a part of the fandom says, and a video debunking it is not interesting to you, to the point of adding a funny 💀. But okk...

Those "jokes" are getting old as hell. It's bad to a point that gets disrespectful lmao, people are still repeating stuff like "a grown woman who's dragging out a beef that has happened 2 decades ago", genuine question, do you guys understand how bad trauma affects someone's head. The conversation is not just about Cassandra anymore, it's straight lack of empathy w other people because wth

I'm soooooooooooooo tired of the "varian is a poor baby and cassandra is a monster" discourse, they were both good and did stupid things because of anger, end of conversation.

I believe that every joke carries a hint of truth. For example, when I hear someone making a joke about something disrespectful, even though it's a joke, I can only interpret that this person doesn't mind about the seriousness of the subject you know. The same way that, in this case, if you're making the "poor varian, annoying cassandra" joke (again, because it's all we hear in this fandom) this means you're not the one who's trying to go against the misinformation, instead you're giving it more reach. For example, I wouldn't make a sarcastic humoristic post about something I don't agree with, and then later say "guys I actually understand that, I get it, it was a joke...", it's very... contradictory?

The fandom is really tired of hearing that already, we need more analysis, fun posts, fanarts, pointing out details in the art of the show or in it's story, not just more misinformation and mocking jokes... guys we're past that already come on

*Varian, a 14 year old child who's in an intense amount of grief who has been wronged by a whole kingdom, commits several war crimes*

The kingdom: SEND HIM TO PRISON FOR LIFE!

*Cassandra, a grown woman who's dragging out a beef that happened over 2 decades ago and actively tries to destroy the entire kingdom several times*

The kingdom: Well, she's the princesses best friend, so she's kind of valid, I guess.

[moonchild-in-blue]

Massive thank you to you and everyone else who calls out how shitty it is to get mad at peoples interpretations. Sleep tokens music is romantic. Its also toxic. These statements can coexist. Its not your business if someone plays bloodsport or vore or hell even atlantic at their wedding. Youre not them, you dont know what the music means to them. If you see a weird take just roll your eyes and move on, its not a big deal. Absolutely sick and fucking tired of all these "why are you calling this romantic/sexy? Youre stupid and a terrible person!" takes like fucking relax. Media literacy is important yes. Respecting that this music is dark and personal to vessel is also important. Same goes for respecting how people relate to the music in dark ways. But as long as people are not saying things directly to vessel or fans about how their individual trauma is sexy then just chill out and respect peoples different interpretations. It sucks that i cant talk about how i view certain songs without being called horrible things and having really fucked up vitriol aimed at me. Yall need to grow the fuck up and get over yourselves. Im not thinking of your personal shit when i call a certain song romantic/sexy, i dont even know you, sometimes im thinking of my own trauma actually lol. Lets all discuss this music maturely where we respect each other and what each of us as individuals bring to the table for interpretation, stop making this fandom toxic as hell for anyone who doesnt agree 100% with your own interpretation. (Also the whole "youre not allowed to say this song is romantic/sexy" thing is very dismissive of some peoples trauma in itself, it ignores how messy someones feelings toward their abusers/toxic partners can be. Pretty fucked up to call a trauma survivor stupid or a terrible person because a song reminds them of their positive feelings towards someone who hurt them) Anyways yeah, just tired of people being so harsh because they refuse to see other peoples perspectives. I genuinely think one of the most toxic aspects of this fandom is the vitriol over different interpretations, people act like outright children at times with it im ngl, especially with more sexual discussions. It also feels infantilizing towards vessel at times, hes a grown adult who put romantic/sexy elements in his music and he doesnt need people trying to protect him from those themes. Im rambling but this stuff pisses me off so much, this fandom needs to do better

Context post for the clueless ones - regarding my tags/replies

Here's the thing - I've been in fandoms for many, many, MANY years. This type of discussion isn't anything new nor unique to Sleep Token, but it sure does make a comeback quite often. It's tiring to keep repeating the same things over and over, but that's what fandom is all about isn't it?

Someone needs to say something, and I am not one to shy away from uncomfortable conversations like these. Something something, build your own community, be the change you wanna see, etc etc.

I've said pretty much everything I wanna say already under that post, but for the sake of clarity, and because I can't keep my mouth shut apparently -

Under the cut for length - you know the drill:

Music is art. And art is subjective. Meaning, each individual will have their own personal connection and interpretation of a given piece of art, which in this case is Sleep Token's music.

Did Vessel write the songs with a certain intent or meaning? Most likely yes! It's not hard to connect the dots and guess what events/emotions might've transpired and served as inspiration for them (accuracy to personal life is irrelevant and none of our business, but it's also no rocket science to understand what's been said).

Can we establish a base meaning for any given song, or better, can we have a general consensus of what a song is about based on its lyrics and themes? Absolutely! Not every song is like that, but we can all agree there's a lot of recurring themes of past relationships and mental health struggles.

Is it wrong to diminish the songs to one basic element (eg. the sexual undertones) and/or completely disregard the bigger, more important theme? I'd say it is.

Giving Atlantic as an example (which as a lot of you know, is my most favourite song of them and very dear to me): this one has some very blatant references to suicide and depression. Regardless of whether it is based on irl events or not (none of our business!!!), it is extremely heavy and emotionally charged. I find it incredibly disrespectful when people say random stuff during the rituals when he plays this one.

Or for example, how certain people reduce Sleep Token to "baby making metal", instead of acknowledging the insane (insane!) variety of genres and the profound lyricism they present.

Should we limit our views, and by extension, those of others, to surface-level interpretation, without allowing room for different views and interpretations, either fictional lore based or not? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Vessel himself said to "not restrict ourselves to labels or genres because music transcends it all" (paraphrasing here). It's literally their whole thing. It's very hypocritical to be shouting from the rooftops about "media literacy" and assuming people are stupid or idiots for not understanding the basic, surface-level meaning of a song, when Vessel himself constantly writes in metaphors and half-truths.

I've touched on this a lifetime ago on one of my analysis, but if you *actually* look at the lyrics, you'll realise Vessel hardly ever says what he means. There's always something else behind his words, something he purposefully keeps hidden. It really sneaks upon you sometimes! I'm over a year in and I still find something new everyday on their music. That man has a way to weave in a hundred and one statements under a single sentence, that is just truly beautiful to study.

Is, say, The Love You Want, about a man (Vessel) mourning the fact that his love isn't reciprocated? Yeah! Is it about someone who, despite knowing they can never receive from their lover the attention and affection and care they want, will stay by their side anyways? It is!

Is it about bitterness, spiteful accusations aimed at the one person who should love you fully? Or a reflection of how little self-regard the singer has, so much that they are willingly and actively choosing to stay in a sinking one-sided relationship, because the alternative is too painful to bare? Can you flip the switch and see it as someone who is obsessively pursuing another person, and painting themselves as a victim? All of this, yes!

You can even eliminate the romantic aspect all together and apply it to a relationship with the self (past or future, or an alter ego), or a parental figure. The options are endless. There isn't one universal truth when it comes to music, and as such, all of these takes are 100% correct.

Many statements can be true at the same time - it doesn't make one more true or correct than the other. Simply different. The way we connect with music is very much dictated by our own life experiences, and no two people have lived the exact same life.

Can you prefer a certain way to look at a song, or completely disagree with certain takes? Absolutely! I know I sure as hell do! That's normal and expected and part of the fun in being in a community such as ours. More people means more ways to look at a song - isn't that just wonderful?!

Now, this is very obvious for most of us, but some people, especially in the younger rage, have been taught to look at things in a very black and white way. Not to be that person, but the truth is that the rise in awareness of social issues and "pc-ness", is slowly starting to eliminate the possibility of things being flawed and nuanced.

If you're wrong, you're awful. If you're right, you're obnoxious. Made a mistake? Get cancelled. Grow from your mistakes, but not like that. Learn from your actions, but change your whole personality in a day otherwise you're problematic.

You know what I mean.

Life isn't black and white. Art isn't black and white. Music isn't black and white. What may seem like a toxic, dark, obsessive depiction of a relationship to you, might translate to the deepest and most truest of loves to me. I can acknowledge something is Not Right, while still drawing my own conclusions.

Is Blood Sport a sad af song? Yeah! Definitely not the first thing I'd think of when in a happy relationship. But maybe that's the point. And maybe I do. And that's okay, and none of anyone's business. "Okay but The Apparition isn't a good example of a healthy and romantic-" TO YOU! Maybe that's what love looks like to me! Maybe I just happen to be into it! And what about it?

Maybe to me love comes with all the ugly sides too. The violence, the despair, the self-doubt. Who are you to dictate what I can or can't think? I highly doubt Vessel would go 🗣️ "WRONG! NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! >:::(", so why would you?

You can, and should, discuss the songs with others! Maybe some people do genuinely need a fresh pair of eyes to help them get to the juicy core of the songs - that's why we're here! To discuss, and exchange ideas! You can, and should, call people out when their engagement with the music is being harmful to others (joking and laughing during Missing Limbs? No bueno. Speculating about Vessel's personal life? VERY no bueno. Choosing a potentially weird song to walk down the aisle? None of your business + not your wedding + you weren't even invited + none of your business. Notice how I've been repeating that. Notice again).

You shouldn't, however, shame and ridicule others for having different views from you.

I think, rather than engaging in pointless discussions and start accusing people of being this or that, we should all exercise a little "don't like? scroll past". Is it harming you or others? No? Then scroll past! Is it an awful, truly horrendous take about something you're really passionate about? Okay! Disgusting! Scroll past! Good for them! 👍

Also - keep an open mind. We're all doing this living businesse for the first time, no one holds all the answers to everything. It's okay to change your mind. It's okay to say the wrong thing and backtrack. It's okay to make a mistake and learn and grow.

You know what's not okay? Being a dick to others because the thing you like is being misinterpreted. It's hard, I know!!! You can block people! You can scroll past! You can look at pictures of your favourite vessel and cleanse your brain!!!! I know I do!!!!!

And this is a last afterthought but - you don't get to complain about the fandom you're in if you're doing nothing to change that. I see many, maaaaany of you bitch about this and that, while having 0 engagement aside from the bitching. Like?? Maybe if you spent more time reblogging cool art or gifs and less time whining about literally everything, this would be a much more pleasant space!! And I DO get to be a little petty here because I sure do try my best to make this a fun and nice community. I am allowed a little bitching 😌

Anyways, tl/dr: don't be a dick; don't like - don't engage; keep an open mind; gaze upon the vessels. Peace and love yall 💙💫

[pyrosomatic-metamorphosis]

OH. okay so normally i dont touch discourse with a 20 ft pole, but this has been niggling at my brain tonight and i finally realized why

the people who are mad at qbbh for the memory loss and “dodging consequences” dont understand that he doesnt want to dodge consequences. Like they cant know that, they werent focused on him when he was literally feeding himself to the soul vultures and planning his eventual imprisonment and also. The Many Many Many hints he made towards suicide/sacrifice/Just Fucking Dying.

ccbbh is a subtle roleplayer, he’s been building this shit up for two whole months- it was day FIVE of the eggs going missing that he resolved to do whatever it took (hurting his friends) to get the eggs back. It was day three that he followed in dapper’s footsteps and started feeding himself to the soul vultures (and gaining a Massive headwound beneath his hood in the process- you can only see it if you go on namemc and remove the layers). He’s got impaired judgement. Even the memory issues arent a new thing- i cant remember exactly when they started, but one of the first big moments i remmeber was september 30th where he spent an hour falling into a delusional frenzy searching his base for cameras that he forgot he asked aypierre to plant.

The super murder of purgatory and the memory loss afterwards probably all feels very sudden for people who havent been following his story, but as someone who has been- all of this has been true to character. The only cheap swings he’s made have been combat-based in purgatory, and even the motive for those was built up in rp.

People are calling for consequences, but he has alrwady been experiencing self-inflicted consequences for months. The blue on his usual outfit is blood. This recent memory loss isnt a restart to get away with the atrocities - it is yet another consequence of his egg-protecting complexes and the ways he punishes himself for failing them.

he is NOT a moral character. he’s a demon hiding in plain site. he has eaten people. he has killed people. he understands the cruelty of his actions, and the consequences of them for the loved ones of his victims. but it matters when that harm is being done to his loved ones. he’ll still do it, because he will do anything for the eggs, but it matters, and that means that he has already started the process of self-inflicting those much-demanded consequences

[userautumn]

.

[danzafila]

i'm a petty bitch. if i see otherwise pretty art of a character i like spammed in unrelated characters' tags, i'll simply refuse to like/reblog it sry 🤷🏻‍♀️

[mint-mumbles]

Gonna make a list of queer characters that don’t outright state their queerness because a certain group of people complaining about the handling of a certain character’s arc from a certain game is pissing me off

“They didn’t make her say she was trans so that means that they’re giving us a ‘fuck you’/we need confirmation or it isn’t valid and transphobes will be transphobic/they’re queerbaiting!”

Shut the fuck up

The fact that we’re even at this point is a miracle in itself and needing every character to explicitly say their orientation and/or gender identity shows how ignorant you are, not just regarding media literacy, but also on queer history

By your myopic lens you’re discrediting a lot of queer characters that didn’t and/or couldn’t outright say that they’re queer

Characters shouldn’t have to outright say their orientation and/or gender identity for you to consider them “good rep”

That perspective is ridiculously narrow minded and downplays the importance of previous queer characters that helped pave the way to where we are now

Update: Here it is!

[purpurussy]

I'm probably actually just annoyed at something in my personal life but my brain is projecting it onto dnp. but that doesn't make it less annoying

[danielnelsen]

so if you romance and ascend astarion you can kick him in the balls when he tries to turn you and it’s just very funny, he’s so pissy about it. so much for the most powerful vampire of all time or whatever, he stamps around like a toddler and then leaves forever

[milfbrainrot]

trying to figure out if i'm on good terms with someone who rly is never online is so rough lol. maybe i'm being ignored because they hate me and want nothing to do with me. maybe i just haven't heard back bc they have a life offline.

[astralleywright]

really though like it was the same thing with ashton last month (and imogen several times before) where people's interpretations of their actions would be at best in deeply bad faith and at worst just blatantly incorrect. and when they got called out for villainizing a character while failing to understand even the basic facets of them they would be like "ugh stop coddling them you're allowed to admit when your favorite character has flaws"

[puhpandas]

I swear to god if Talesgames is canon I will be so mad-

It's not even about lore relevance-

It's the fact that Gregory is going to be like 14-15 by the time of Security Breach. This little twerp is 10. 12 tops.

You're telling me this kid can fit in a stroller at 15 years old!?

And what about Ruin!? You're telling me a 12-13 year old girl is friends with someone who's almost 16!? Seriously!?

I'm in denial.

I think that age thing is just gonna be a retcon/shitty writing regarding the books not knowing how to timeline their stories lmaooo. if THATS what the retcons will be then that's not too bad. better than what was believed when ruin was new when it looked like the entire mimic as a character was a retcon

also something like this could be easily disproved by just saying his age in the game or showing his birthdate or something

[britneyshakespeare]

what is incredibly annoying about the internet is that someone's argumentative-toned political vent post can circulate to a few hundred or thousand people and be generally agreed with by people seeing their broader point, and then be screenshotted and circulated again by ppl who mostly also saw it the first time around, but it's vituperatively disagreed with while picking apart the original post's wording to imply that the original poster meant something particularly stupid or wrong when what is being attacked is not the actual point.

[lemonandpie]

If I have to hear the discourse about a new thing before I've gotten the chance to hear about the thing itself, at least refer to it by name