#Anti Circe

[dootznbootz]

[tamaruaart]

I really dislike the Circe book by Madeline Miller, and one of the biggest reasons why is because Miller tries so hard to victimize Circe. At the expense of all the other characters we love. And it's especially frustrating when CIRCE is the bad guy in those situations. Like it's not feminism, it's the justification of wrongdoings just because they're done by women. She does bad things in the book, but it's noticable the writer wants us to forgive those things by giving her trauma, and by making someone else the big bad.

And like. Sometimes it's just too much. I might've missed an explanation for this, or maybe this is in a thing in Greek Mythology that I'm not aware of (please inform me if that's the case!), but why would Helios hate Circe's eyes? Because they're "piss-colored"? The children of Helios HAVE to have golden eyes, it's literally their thing. So, did Miller change the lore just to make Kirke more sympathetic (which, deletes the purpose of this wanting to be a story that "gives a voice to women", and "tells her true story", when this ISN'T her true story. And it's manipulating the original story to make Circe look like a victim. The Odyssey, a work told over 2000 years ago, does so much better than this so-called "feminist masterpiece" in my opinion), or did she purposefully make Helios a moron just so we feel more for Circe? And if that's the case, this is a PEAK example of the demonization of the other characters for Kirke's sake. Like I love Circe, but I love the other characters as well, and of course I'm not going to like the book if it just ruins all of them for her sake.

[1800naveen]

I hate Greek retellings.

I don't actually hate them like that. I have a few that I love (Percy Jackson, God of war, etc).

Shit like "a Hades and Persephone retelling!" Pisses me off.

Lore Olympus did some damage, fuck Rachel Smythe. Persephone is a self insert of her and Hades is apparently based on Mads Mikkelsen.

AND HOW SHE PORTRAYED APOLLO? He's one of my favorite gods and I don't remember a myth where he "assaulted" someone (correct me if I'm wrong!)

How did she see Apollo and go "I'm going to make him a rapist!" There are a bunch of gods and goddesses who are that, why him?

People had the sheer fucking audacity to attack pagans/witches who work with Apollo. Bitch, it's a real religion/belief that people have been following since the ancient times?

Is this a safe place to say I'm not a fan of Madeline Miller? Circe assaulted Odysseus and Achilles tries to assault Tenes' sister, murdered Tenes, and assaulted Troilus who is Apollo's son in APOLLO'S OWN TEMPLE.

Paris is an icon for putting him down🙏🏾

[blue-lotus333]

How it feels to hear a Circe fan talk about Odysseus

[corvid-ghost]

Its always so strange when people say they hate Odysseus because of tsoa - like bro those are 2 different characters, but also why? Like hes just a dude in that. Personally I didn't like the book and honestly my favorite parts were when he was in it. It was awhile ago when I read so I don't remember specifics, but as far as I'm aware, he's just a guy? Who shows up like twice? How did people decide to hate a character from a different peice of media because of this?

[bugwolfsstuff]

Didyoujustfuckingshootme

What do you mean I have to compare book 10 of the actual Odyssey to Madeline Miller

What do you MEAN I HAVE TO COMPARE THE FUCKING SOURCE MATERIAL TO A 'FEMINIST' RETELLING

WHAT DO I HAVE TO GAIN BY DOING THIS?

You already called Circe and Medea exceptional heroines in this classroom im already dead stop desecrating my body and everything that is sacred to me, Xenia goes both ways

They don't even write the rest of the source text after this its just (beautifully drawn) comic snapshots of what happens in the next books that give no context so its confusing AF to everyone else in this hell hole

[xjulixred45x]

Do you know something that honestly bothers me? that when they want to make retellings of Greek stories, they almost always go for the figures that really do not deserve their own story.

I KNOW IT SOUNDS BAD, BUT LISTEN.

Circe, for example, from this woman (who turned out to be quite controversial) Madeline, they try to sell you Circe's story as a "feminist" retelling and normally there would be nothing wrong with that.

The issue is that Circe (in the myths and from what I understand in the book) is not at all feminist.

I mean, she is a morally gray woman, I respect that, but is it really a good idea to use as an example of a "feminist" a woman who 1- killed a man who did not want to be unfaithful to his wife with her, 2- converted an innocent nymph in a MONSTER (Scylla) only for an unrequited love (again) and 3- in Telogony, after Odysseus dies (her supposed "lover" who in some versión she ENCHANTED, at the hands of the son they had together) she marries HIS ANOTHER SON.

Since when did a woman who tramples on men or hurts other women for her own benefit become a "feminist" or "girlboss"??

WITH SO MANY OTHER POSSIBLE SCENARIOS TO MAKE RETELINGS OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY AND THEY DECIDE TO GO FOR CIRCE?

"BUT JUlIx WHAT ANOTHER EXAMPLE DO YOU WANT THEM TO USE?? Circe is SUPER KNOWN, OBVIOUSLY it's easier to go for her"

other examples? let's see:

MEDUSA (old classic, a great allegory that still works today about how SA victims are re-victimized and blamed by the people who should be protecting them/they don't get justice because their attacker is more "relevant" and powerful than them). (Even if it's the Roman versión, You can't Say that a myth that reflects the reality of THOUSANDS of women and give streng to the víctims its not "feminist")

PENTHESILEA(Amazon queen who fought in the Trojan War, which she attended because she was depressed after having accidentally killed her sisters, but she did not leave without killing dozens of Trojans and fighting with Achilles himself. IMAGINE A BOOK ABOUT HER) .

THE AMAZONS IN GENERAL (Tribes of warlike women, daughters of Ares, whom he loved very much, who had a matriarchal system that existed without men, without competition, with a great sense of sisterhood and who participated in many velic encounters in mythology) .

HERMIONE OF SPARTA AND ANDROMACHA (the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus and the wife of Hector of Troy respectively. Both were married against their wills to Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, who was abusive (quite graphically) and they hated him. Imagine a story where the two become friends and team up to kill Neo, Hermione takes control of Sparta and Andromache is her second in command).

ATALANTA (The only woman of the Argonauts who, when the magical boar of Calidon appeared, was the one who managed to hurt him first and kept the home trophy (but FOR SOME REASON later there are myths that kill her in the stupidest way possible, thanks Aphrodite) )

In conclusion, let's give the spotlight to Greek women who genuinely deserve to be known about them❤️ (without trowing Hate to Circe, she DESERVES TO BE KNOWN, but not as a feminist story).

________

(ESPAÑOL)

¿saben algo que sinceramente me molesta? que cuando se quieren jacer retelings de las historias griegas, casi siempre van por las figuras que realmente no se merecen una historia propia.

SE QUE SUENA MAL, PERO ESCUCHEN.

Circe, por ejemplo, de esta mujer(que resulto ser bastante polemica) Madeline, tratan de venderte la historia de Circe como un reteling "feminista" y eso normalmente no tendria nada de malo.

el tema es que Circe(en los mitos y por lo que tengo entendido en el libro) no tiene nada de feminista.

digo, es una mujer moralmente gris, eso lo respeto, pero ¿realmente es buena idea usar de ejemplo de "feminista" a una mujer que 1- mato a un hombre que no queria serle infiel a su esposa con ella, 2- convirtio a una ninfa inocente en un MONSTRUO(escilla) solo por un amor no correspondido (otra vez) y 3- en Telogony, después de que Odiseo muere(su supuesto "enamorado", a manos del hijo que tuvieron juntos) ella se casa CON SU OTRO HIJO.

¿¿desde cuando una mujer que pisotea a los hombres o hace daño a otras mujeres por beneficio propio paso a ser "feminista" o "girlboss"??

CON TANTOS OTROS POSIBLES ESCENARIOS PARA HACER RETELINGS DE LA MITOLOGÍA GRIEGA Y DECIDEN IR POR CIRCE?

"PeRo jUlIx ¿¿QuE oTrO eJeMpLo QuIeReS qUe UsEn?? Circe Es sUpEr cOnOcIdA, OBVIamente es mas facil ir por ella"

¿otros ejemplos? veamos:

MEDUSA(viejo clasico, una gran alegoria que sigue funcionando hasta hoy sobre como las victimas de SA son re-victimizadas y culpadas por la gente que deberia protegerlas/no obtienen justicia porque su agresor es mas "relevante" y poderoso que ellas).

PENTESILEA (Reina amazona que peleo en la guerra de Troya, a la cual asistio por estar deprimida al haber matado accidentalmente a sus hermanas, pero no se fue sin matar a decenas de troyanos y pelear con el propio Aquiles. IMAGÍNENSE UN LIBRO SOBRE ELLA).

LAS AMAZONAS EN GENERAL (Tribus de mujeres guerraras hijas de Ares, a las cuales el amaba mucho, que tenian un sistema matriarcal que existia sin hombres, sin competencia, con un gran sentido de hermandad y que participaron en muchos encuentros velicos en la mitología).

HERMÍONE DE ESPARTA Y ANDROMACA(la hija de Helena de Troya y Menelao y la esposa ee Hector de troya respectivamente. ambas se casaron en contra de sus voluntades con Neoptolemo, el hijo de Aquiles, que era abusivo(bastante gráficamente) y lo odiaban. imaginense una historia donde ambas se hacen amigas y se alian para matar a Neo, Hermíone toma el control de Esparta y Andromaca es su segunda al mando).

ATALANTA(La unica mujer de los argonautas que cuando aparecio el jabali magico de calidon fue quien logro lastimarlo primero y se quedo con el trofeo de casa(pero POR ALGUNA RAZON después hay mitos que la matan de la forma mas estupida posible, gracias Afrodita))

en conclusión, demosle el reflector a mujeres griegas que genuinamente merecen que se sepa de ellas❤️(sin titarle Hate a Circe, MERECE SER CONOCIDA, pero no como historia feminista).

[memoryyong]

I am so anti Madeline Miller it is insane

(Sorry if it looks blurry, idk how to fix that)

[that-guy-in-the-chiton]

When Circe (Homer) Meets Circe (Miller):

[wanderingmind867]

God, Medea is so awful. She might be worse than Gaea, honestly. Gaea is like how Marvel portrayed Galactus. She's evil by mortal standards, but she's so immense that she operates beyond conventional morality. Just as Galactus needs to eat planets for life, Gaea is just trying to get revenge on her grandchildren for what they did to her children. Mortals don't even enter the picture in any sense. And we can argue morality all day and all night (personally, i think there's peaceful resolutions for galactus. If we can find a way to clone planets for him or leave him in the negative zone or whatever), but these beings are a little bit beyond conventional morality.

But Medea… Medea was mortal. And she is a bloodthirsty psychopath who killed her own children, killed her ex-husband's new wife, and now is trying to kill Jason and Leo, who are adolescents! Even from the fields of punishment, she ratted to Gaea about a vision she saw of Leo, and that led to Gaea killing Leo's mom. So if Gaea is like Galactus, Medea is like if the Silver Surfer was a bloodthirsty witch.

Medea and her aunt Circe are perfect examples of evil, and I wish them nothing but the worst. May their flesh be turned to mulch and their bones ground to powder, the psychos. And you know… Poison Ivy reminds me an awful lot of these two. She feels like she belongs in their insane charm speaking killers club. So maybe we should just let Hades/Pluto and The Spectre have their ways with these menaces. I hate them with every fibre if my being, and reading the medea chapters of the book really messed me up. Same way reading the Circe chapters in the sea of monsters made me despise Circe.

I still wonder how this'll affect my interpretation of Reyna and Hylla, when I get to them. Because they worked for Circe. And unless you really didn't know how sick Circe was…then you might be guilty by assocation.

[mot-hesbian]

Goodbye, my morally grey (or affably evil) sorceress who is terrible

[dootznbootz]

Hi. I'm cyberbullying a long dead poet because of his shitty fanfic. Enjoy. I'd love it if you joined me.

(Before you get mad at me, yes, I know Eugammon of Cyrene is an important figure and all that. I'm sick with some sort of flu. Let me cyberbully an ancient dead fanfic writer in peace.)

[tamaruaart]

Keep in mind this isn't me hating on Kirke, I love that fucked up goddess she's such a fun character. But goddamn I hate her fans.

It's all just people trying to push feminism where it wasn't 🙃 Yes, it's true ancient Greece was kinda shitty towards women. But goddamn that was 3000 years ago. We can enjoy these stories but it's important to not push modern perspectives and view points on these stories while also not condoning these actions. Not to mention we may very well experience this kind of thing with future generations that will come after us so it's important to simply stay humble. Civilizations and humans are constantly evolving and viewpoints are constantly changing so it's not exactly fair to history nor ourselves to take these ancient ideologies to heart. Grow up.

Anyways Circe/Kirke is not your hot little witch cutie 🥰 She's a goddess and the daughter of the Sun Titan. She's done terrible things and that's what makes her iconic. Istg if she wasn't so infamous no one would even know about her. She's morally gray and that's what makes her so neat >:D Now, is it unforgivable to paint jer in a good light? No, but I think if you remove ALL of her questionable morality she losses her charms. She isn't the same Kirke anymore. (Looking at you MM, your writing is good but holy shit.)

It's not unforgivable, but it's simply incorrect. If anyone wants to learn more about Kirke's original/actual character, I don't really recommend most modern interpretations- (MM's novel, Hades 2, DC, Odyssey Movies, my bbg Epic the Musical etc...) I'd say just read the Odyssey, reasurch some older mythos and read the Argonautica.

Can you still like these interpretations of Kirke? Yes. Of course. I love Epic's Kirke even though she is pretty inaccurate. You just have to acknowledge they aren't the real thing! :D That happeneds with most characters ngl, no adaptation nor interpretation is going to be 100% accurate to the original, but with Kirke it's always so... Apparent? So visible. They never make her at LEAST 50% accurate. Which 🤬

She was not a victim, she wasn't incredibly horny, she wasn't a girlboss, she wasn't love sick for Odysseus (it's hinted she only found him to be an 'interesting mortal' of sorts) she wasn't 100% cartoon villain of the week either. She's MORALLY GRAY 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

She holds Odysseus' men hostage, she turns Scylla into a monster out of jealousy, she turns a man into a woodpecker because he didn't want to sleep with her. But she ALSO helps out Medea and Jason (even though it's because Medea was her neice but STILL) and she gives Odysseus instructions on how to head home.

She does BAD things that shouldn't be forgiven and aren't at all justified, but she also does GOOD things that should be acknowledged. She's a goddess. She's a character. She's morally gray. WHAT THE FUCK IS NOT CLICKING???? 😀

I just don't like modern interpretations of Kirke and I'm a meanie so I made this ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

That's why I stick to my 3000 year old books instead of these puny ones that were written in my century 💪💪💪

Do not apply feministic messages or themes on Kirke. Nor any Greek mythology figure for that matter. This was 3000 years ago 😀 if you want to focus on feminism FOCUS ON WOMEN WHO ACTUALLY HAD TO STRUGGLE ABOUT THESE THINGS AND THAT EXISTED IN THE 19-21 CENTURY 😀😀😀😀 WHEN PEOPLE KNEW OR WELL WERE SUPPOSED TO KNOW FUCKING BETTER. OR JUST FOCUS ON MODERN FEMALE STRUGGLES THAT ARE RELATABLE??

Also, if I haven't already made it clear. LIKING A CHARACTER ≠ CONDONING THEIR ACTIONS. I'm just talking about all the people who either call her a girlboss, hate on other figures for being morally questionable but turn a blind eye when it comes to Kirke, and people who make fun of Odysseus and call him a man whore for sleeping with Circe and Calypso. (Despite the fact he's a literal victim)

And for the last time:

👏 THIS 👏 IS 👏 NOT👏 A 👏KIRKE 👏 THE GODDESS 👏 HATE 👏 POST. 👏 THIS 👏 IS 👏 ME 👏 SLANDERING 👏 SOME 👏 OF 👏 HER👏 FANS 👏 AND👏 MOST 👏MODERN 👏INTERPETATIONS👏 OF 👏THAT 👏TWISTED 👏MORALLY 👏GRAY👏 BITCH.

Also I made a typo in the meme. God damn it dyslexia. (It's should be 'transforming' not 'transformed')

[kurzler]

in my opinion, many modern greek retellings/stories inspired by greek mythology don't fail because they're inaccurate. they fail because they have nothing new to say.

i don't mind changes to the original myths, as long as they make sense and they have a narrative purpose! i understand that making changes is sometimes necessary to convey a certain narrative, especially to modern audiences.

is epic the musical mythologically accurate? hell no! but the changes serve to tell a specific story and to convey a certain message. also, epic the musical is self aware about its "inaccuracies". and the music just bangs.

is hadestown accurate? no! does it make the change that I always dread, removing the kidnapping from the hades/persephone myth? yeah. but hadestown is barely about them, and it uses greek mythology as a "narrative frame" to tell a certain story. it has a point. it has a message.

what are stories like lore olympus trying to say? what is the messagge of the hundredth persephone/hades retelling? what are we supposed to take from them? "don't listen to your mother she's a bitch"? "mothers are irrational and you should forsake her for a man"? very feminist.

why are we still doing the medusa "feminist" retellings? it's BEEN done. too many times. and they're ALL the same. it's a worse crime than being bad: they are boring.

i'm tired of retellings that are just "what if this very famous story was THE OPPOSITE and the protagonist was an ASSHOLE the whole time and the villain was MISUNDERSTOOD and the real VICTIM" okay but why. why would that be the case. what's the point of the story you want to tell. or do you just want to use shock value.

of course, i dislike retellings that are so different from the myth that they go AGAINST the spirit/message of the original, because in that case what's even the point of retelling the myth? just tell an original story. but i would take stabbed poseidon and capitalist hades any day over the same basic story of medusa being a girlboss or demeter being bad because of... reasons?

tl;dr: stop being unoriginal and tell a good story. or at least an entertaining one. i beg you

[blue-lotus333]

I’m gonna say it, but I fucking hate Circe☠️ like I can’t stand her, especially when it comes to ppl not acknowledging that she technically raped Odysseus and changed an innocent nymph into a monster just bc that said nymph was loved by a man who Circe was in love with. I’m sure there’s more, but she’s js…SO annoying to me.

Fuck Circe, all my homies hate Circe

[laundry-and-taxes]

The way 'feminist retellings' have become another name for multi-dimensional female characters being white-washed and reduced to misunderstood/wronged/abused woman who does conventionally evil things to protect herself/for the greater good will always make me want to hurl myself off of a cliff.

Often times, these retellings bear no respect for their original text, and simply write to be quoted on tumblr mood boards and praised by booktokers as 'subversive' and 'a new take on feminism.'

I need authors to stop writing feminist retellings until they understand that women can be

1. Evil

2. Ambitious

3. Cruel/unkind/selfish

And gender based violence against these women is not acceptable simply because of their actions. They do not need to be victims of earlier abuse, or extremely kind, or the chosen ones for violence perpetuated against them on the virtue of their gender to be condemned.