#Investiture Beings

[the-monkey-ruler]

I was reading some Chinese texts and stories, and I have seen that while the immortals have their magic, they despise sorcery. Why is sorcery seen as negative by immortals and why are they different? (like, I think it's mentioned that Shen Gongbao relied more on sorcery even thought he has an immortal teacher)

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the English difference of how 'sorcery' and 'magic' are different things let alone how the translator from what you read translated the original characters. I have never seen any king of cultivation in Daoism being translated as 'sorcery' so I can't say what really say what the original characters could be talking about. It could be talking about 巫术 which I think sometimes include blood rituals but never seen in stories as something ‘bad’ or even acknowledged in Daoist stories. If anything, I think they were more regarded as doctors with unusual methods and fairly good with technology. But I really only seen it to describe Western wizards/witches the most so I cannot say how mush it is used in Daoist stories.

As far as I have been aware Shen Gongbao uses cultivation just as any other immortal and I do not think that he has ever killed/taken his cultivation from any other living creature. That is the only thing I can assume would be 'bad' as it is feeding off another's life force or perhaps even just meaning 'using cultivation for trouble.' I recall that most of his 'evil' deeds come more from Shen Gongbao's ability to manipulate people are his words and being a vengeful man rather than anything dark with his cultivation.

The best guess I can give you is that Shen Gongbao in your translation is the bad guy of the narrative and thus the term 'sorcery' has negative implications in Western term and that is why it is used. Similar to how 'fairy' is used for 仙 when 'immortal' is more proper but this chance depends on whether the immortal is a woman or not.

You can take a read yourself but I think it is just a translation preference.

"Taoism branched from witchcraft. During the Jin and Tang dynasties, due to the participation and compilation of literati and the absorption of a large number of Buddhist scriptures and theories, the original religious form of witchcraft and Taoism became theorized, and Taoism developed a large distance from witchcraft. Taoism has since risen to the level of the upper ruling class, while shamanism has continued to flow among the people. Since the ruling class in history banned witchcraft and " obscene sacrifices" from an orthodox position, the survival of witchcraft has become very difficult. Therefore, witchcraft began to seek survival and a way out. First of all, it was to get closer to Taoism. So that the people also agree that they belong to Taoism. As this development continued, witchcraft and Taoism gradually merged, forming a form of shamanism consisting of both witchcraft and Taoism, and the "two gates of Taoism and Law", namely internal witchcraft and external Taoism.

First of all, shamanism must identify Taishang Laojun , the ancestor god of Taoism , as its leader to confirm that shamanism also belongs to "Laojun's religion" or "Laojun's sect". So based on the legend of Laozi , I compiled the origin of Taishang Laojun, thinking that witchcraft became the original version of Taoism. In addition to moving Taishang Laojun, Zhang Tianshi , Sanqing , Sanyuan, Sanguan, Wuyue , Sidu , Xuantian God and many Taoist gods were also moved into the witch altar, and they were named "Taishang Wuling Laojun" Or "The Supreme Three-Yuan Heart Zhengfa", "The Supreme Five Thunder Purple Micro Thunder Court" and other titles were listed on it, and they absorbed a large number of Taoist scriptures such as "The Supreme Sutra of Changing Purity", "The Supreme Xuantian Miao Sutra", "Tai Shang Zi Wei Treasure Repentance", "Tai Shang Laojun Xing Treasure Repentance", "Three Officials Sutra", "The Three Officials of Heaven, Earth and Water to Eliminate Disasters and Sinless Confessions", "Eleven Days", "South Dou Sutra", The Beidou Sutra and other sutras and confessions are enriched in the witchcraft and Taoist altar with Taoist rituals.

- "A Discussion on the Formation of Witch-Tao Culture in the Symbiosis Cultural Circle" by Ye Mingsheng

[bluntforcefem]

thinking about her (nightblood)

[ryin-silverfish]

So You Want to Read More about Chinese Mythos: a rough list of primary sources

"How/Where can I learn more about Chinese mythology?" is a question I saw a lot on other sites, back when I was venturing outside of Shenmo novel booksphere and into IRL folk religions + general mythos, but had rarely found satisfying answers.

As such, this is my attempt at writing something past me will find useful.

(Built into it is the assumption that you can read Chinese, which I only realized after writing the post. I try to amend for it by adding links to existing translations, as well as links to digitalized Chinese versions when there doesn't seem to be one.)

The thing about all mythologies and legends is that they are 1) complicated, and 2) are products of their times. As such, it is very important to specify the "when" and "wheres" and "what are you looking for" when answering a question as broad as this.

-Do you want one or more "books with an overarching story"?

In that case, Journey to the West and Investiture of the Gods (Fengshen Yanyi) serve as good starting points, made more accessible for general readers by the fact that they both had English translations——Anthony C. Yu's JTTW translation is very good, Gu Zhizhong's FSYY one, not so much.

Crucially, they are both Ming vernacular novels. Though they are fictional works that are not on the same level of "seriousness" as actual religious scriptures, these books still took inspiration from the popular religion of their times, at a point where the blending of the Three Teachings (Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism) had become truly mainstream.

And for FSYY specifically, the book had a huge influence on subsequent popular worship because of its "pantheon-building" aspect, to the point of some Daoists actually putting characters from the novel into their temples.

(Vernacular novels + operas being a medium for the spread of popular worship and popular fictional characters eventually being worshipped IRL is a thing in Ming-Qing China. Meir Shahar has a paper that goes into detail about the relationship between the two.)

After that, if you want to read other Shenmo novels, works that are much less well-written but may be more reflective of Ming folk religions at the time, check out Journey to the North/South/East (named as such bc of what basically amounted to a Ming print house marketing strategy) too.

-Do you want to know about the priestly Daoist side of things, the "how the deities are organized and worshipped in a somewhat more formal setting" vs "how the stories are told"?

Though I won't recommend diving straight into the entire Daozang or Yunji Qiqian or some other books compiled in the Daoist text collections, I can think of a few "list of gods/immortals" type works, like Liexian Zhuan and Zhenling Weiye Tu.

Also, though it is much closer to the folk religion side than the organized Daoist side, the Yuan-Ming era Grand Compendium of the Three Religions' Deities, aka Sanjiao Soushen Daquan, is invaluable in understanding the origins and evolutions of certain popular deities.

(A quirk of historical Daoist scriptures is that they often come up with giant lists of gods that have never appeared in other prior texts, or enjoy any actual worship in temples.)

(The "organized/folk" divide is itself a dubious one, seeing how both state religion and "priestly" Daoism had channels to incorporate popular deities and practices into their systems. But if you are just looking at written materials, I feel like there is still a noticeable difference.)

Lastly, if you want to know more about Daoist immortal-hood and how to attain it: Ge Hong's Baopuzi (N & S. dynasty) and Zhonglv Chuandao Ji (late Tang/Five Dynasties) are both texts about external and internal alchemy with English translations.

-Do you want something older, more ancient, from Warring States and Qin-Han Era China?

Classics of Mountains and Seas, aka Shanhai Jing, is the way to go. It also reads like a bestiary-slash-fantastical cookbook, full of strange beasts, plants, kingdoms of unusual humanoids, and the occasional half-man, half-beast gods.

A later work, the Han-dynasty Huai Nan Zi, is an even denser read, being a collection of essays, but it's also where a lot of ancient legends like "Nvwa patches the sky" and "Chang'e steals the elixir of immortality" can be first found in bits and pieces.

Shenyi Jing might or might not be a Northern-Southern dynasties work masquerading as a Han one. It was written in a style that emulated the Classics of Mountains and Seas, and had some neat fantastic beasts and additional descriptions of gods/beasts mentioned in the previous 2 works.

-Do you have too much time on your hands, a willingness to get through lot of classical Chinese, and an obsession over yaoguais and ghosts?

Then it's time to flip open the encyclopedic folklore compendiums——Soushen Ji (N/S dynasty), You Yang Za Zu (Tang), Taiping Guangji (early Song), Yijian Zhi (Southern Song)...

Okay, to be honest, you probably can't read all of them from start to finish. I can't either. These aren't purely folklore compendiums, but giant encyclopedias collecting matters ranging from history and biography to medicine and geography, with specific sections on yaoguais, ghosts and "strange things that happened to someone".

As such, I recommend you only check the relevant sections and use the Full Text Search function well.

Pu Songling's Strange Tales from a Chinese Studios, aka Liaozhai Zhiyi, is in a similar vein, but a lot more entertaining and readable. Together with Yuewei Caotang Biji and Zi Buyu, they formed the "Big Three" of Qing dynasty folktale compendiums, all of which featured a lot of stories about fox spirits and ghosts.

Lastly...

The Yuan-Ming Zajus (a sort of folk opera) get an honorable mention. Apart from JTTW Zaju, an early, pre-novel version of the story that has very different characterization of SWK, there are also a few plays centered around Erlang (specifically, Zhao Erlang) and Nezha, such as "Erlang Drunkenly Shot the Demon-locking Mirror". Sadly, none of these had an English translation.

Because of the fragmented nature of Chinese mythos, you can always find some tidbits scattered inside history books like Zuo Zhuan or poetry collections like Qu Yuan's Chuci. Since they aren't really about mythology overall and are too numerous to cite, I do not include them in this post, but if you wanna go down even deeper in this already gigantic rabbit hole, it's a good thing to keep in mind.

[3liza]

its really weird that two generations of middle class english first language speakers have reached their late teens/twenties without being able to conjugate SIMPLE verbs. i am constantly hearing 25 year olds saying shit like "drinked", an error my parents and early education had gently corrected out of me by the time i was probably 6 years old??? this is stuff that's so baseline to english that its actually difficult to screw up past a certain number of hours spent speaking aloud, which i think is exactly what has changed (on top of formal english grammar not being a public school investiture for about 30 years). the drunk/drank confusion is a lot more common but that one's pretty easy to screw up without formal instruction, the drinked thing is the level of error that every single spellcheck, teacher, adult, or even older child will correct you on until very recently

[deliveryboysomewhatequaltoheaven]

with Li Jing looking to be an important character in Season 5, I wonder if we will learn what happened with Nezha and Ao Bing

In the tales, Li Jing was angry with Nezha over the feud with the East Dragon Clan and tried to prevent his ascension to godhood

However, I think sources differ on who started the feud, and Ao Guang did not seem evil in S3. Peng also said something about how Nezha should "let the demon child out to play" in The Jade Emperor.

I'm not an expert, and I haven't read Investiture of the Gods, but yeah I am curious to see if Li Jing being here will help us learn about the LMK version of events.

[brongusthearcanist]

So we all agree that Space age Nalthis is probably not gonna be a fun place to be born. I have a feeling it's gonna be like a weird cyber punk dystopia where the government monopoly corporation is just farming people for their breath to maintain their status-quo of being the easiest place to get investiture.

[quitealotofsodapop]

me and @silverlycanthropelover have been discussing LMK Nezha x Ao Bing focused ideas in the notes of this post, and I'm obsessing cus of S5 going to be focused on Nezha's family issues and his tumultuous relationship with his bio dad Li Jing.

I just want Nezha and Ao Bing to meet again and chill about their terrible fathers.

And maybe fall in love.

One idea is that their legendary fight was orchestrated to pit the in-love kids against one another.

Mostly because the love match of the Jade Emperor's Grandson and a Dragon Prince would pose immense political unrest between the factions - they were all notably fighting during the Investiture Crisis/pre-Zhou Dynasty. The Celestial Realm wouldn't stand the next potential royal Consort/Empress being a Dragon, and the Royal Dragons did not wish for their lineage to be tied to the celestials that oppressed them.

So someone in the background stoked unrest that led to the two royal children destroying one another and themselves.

I love ideas of Ao Bing being alive in the LMK timeline, either in stasis in the Underworld, frozen, or confined to a wing of the Eastern Sea Palace. Mostly so he and Nezha can meet once more and confront their childhood mistakes.

We agree that "Utpala/Blue Lotus" would be the name of a fanchild - if not an au version of Mei. Mostly cus the Utpala flower is another sacred flower in Indian Buddhism, and is used to symbolise the "Cold Hells/Narakas" of the Underworld. A very appropriate name for a Divine Serpent/Royal Dragon combo with flower imagery and ice powers respectively. And for a pairing where both have technically died.

One idea we shared is that the "dragon pearl" that Ao Lie "destroyed" in his introduction in Jttw was actually him hiding a pearl-turned-egg Nezha and Ao Bing had unknowingly created together (via the Power of Love™), and refusing to snitch on his fave cousin to the Celestial Realm/Royal Dragons.

The baby dragon/celestial lotus-snake is lavender coloured, and contains enough power to bring gods and dragons alike to their knees (cus she's so cute). <3

[uhoh23]

Person A - I think he's a Wanderer

Person B - DEMON

Me - THE DRAGON KING HAS ARISEN MY BRETHREN

NGL I was originally leaning more towards the demon theory bc there's a lot of evidence for it, but the problem that I have with the demon theory is that it now feels TOO obvious, like the devs are trolling like how they joked about him being a vampire. All three main theories make sense tho - demon, wanderer, or dragon.

There's so many demon implications - 1. The N109 zone being a lawless place that apparently has little sunlight, hence why there doesn't seem to be many plants, making it sound like the underworld bc the underworld probably wouldn't have much life in it, its another version of Hell. 2. Sylus' flower is the Datura, sometimes known as the "Devil's Trumpet." 3. Demons love deals. They trick humans and according to Christian lore, hate humanity. Sylus enjoys using people, even with the good in him. He's always trying to get something.

Point is, it kinda seems TOO on the nose...but the dragon theory is less obvious for me. I would have NEVER thought he was one until I did my research on Chinese mythology 🤣 AND BOY DID I FIND some INTERESTING things. Let's start with the most IMPORTANT point - In Eastern mythology, dragons can shapeshift between human and dragon. There's TWO dragons in particular that stood out to me - Fuzanglong and Longwang.

Fuzanglong - Dragons of hidden treasure. They live underground and hide gemstones, golden nuggets, their most prized possession a magic pearl. Has horns, demonic looking eyes, and dark red is associated with them. Sometimes known as "Keeper of the Underworld." They can cause volcanic eruptions when awoken or when they leave the underground. Elusive to humans.

Sylus and the color red go hand in hand. Couple that with the "treasure" talk that reminds me of Nightplumes due to Sylus saying "A man's heart goes to where his treasure is." Just like a dragon protecting his treasure. Sylus also enjoys gifting MC gems as a gift 🥺 There's also that scene where it looks like MC is underground, blood on her hands, and lava seeping through the ground. This ties to the volcano aspect and the underground aspect of this particular dragon.

The Dragon King - IT GETS WILDER. A guy named Longwang could shapeshift from dragon to human at will. He was the source of rain. His human form had red eyes and his dragon form typically had red scales, but some artists would opt for other colors. Longwang was the king of all dragons, immortal, and eventually he became a God in the story of the Lotus Sutra. His dragon form had wings, claws, and horns. He had four dragon brothers who could also shapeshift, lived in a luxurious palace in the sea, and he ate gems. Longwang was benevolent usually, but he was known to have a bad temper and be intimidating. He also apparently had thousands of kids 🤣

Sylus - has red eyes, he's intimidating to most, gets annoyed easily with most, can't die (or so he claims), the gems thing again, and he's rich. He very well could be a God with his crazy healing abilities and apparent immortality. The Lost Oasis card specifically brings up God's and Longwang played a significant role in a Chinese literature piece called Investiture of God's.

Last, but not least, Sylus' zodiac sign...I find it FUNNY how COINCIDENTALLY this man is an Aries in the Western zodiac, yet in the Chinese zodiac the Aries equivalent? IS A DRAGON. Just search up "Aries in the Chinese zodiac" 💀🫣 The devs did their zodiac homework bc Sylus has MANY of the Aries traits, so who's to say they didn't purposely choose Aries due to it's ties with the Dragon zodiac?

Aries Traits - love the chase in romance and they view crushes as a conquest to conquer, domineering, competitive and hate losing, adventurous, natural leaders, very straightforward, dominant. Dragon Zodiac - natural leaders, adventurous, very straightforward, competitive, can be arrogant, impatient, impulsive 👀🤣 Granted, maybe none of this proves he's a dragon, but I think this stuff is super interesting nonetheless 🖤

[warwickroyals]

Sunderland's Royal Jewel Vault (36/∞) ♛

↬ King Louis III's Diamond Diadem

July 2nd is Federation Day in Sunderland, marking the anniversary of King Louis I’s oath of allegiance to the constitution and investiture as the first King of Sunderland in 1786. Created over 50 years later, King Louis III’s Diadem is not just an accessory but a symbol of the Federation. Therefore, it is owned by the Sunderlandian government, not the royal family, and cannot be moved from the country nor can it be inherited by other members of the royal family. Its government ownership also protects the diadem from being taken apart, sold, or altered by the royal family. Starting with Queen Caroline, the diadem has been exclusively worn by queen consorts for state events, such as investitures and the opening of parliament. The tiara features prominent rubies and diamond strawberry leaves, an emblem of fertility and righteousness that also appears on Sunderland’s flag. It is considered one of the most important and nationalistic pieces of jewelry in the country—the closest Sunderland has to crown jewels that are still in use. Creation: 1820 by an unknown jeweller Provenance: The Government of Sunderland Wearers: King Louis III, Queen Caroline of Sunderland, Queen Rosalyn of Sunderland, Queen Alexandra of Sunderland, Queen Matilda Mary of Sunderland, Queen Anne of Sunderland (never photographed), Queen Katherine of Sunderland, Queen Irene of Sunderland Commissioned/Purchased by: King Louis III Status: Currently worn by Queen Irene of Sunderland

[thekinglemingle]

Have I ever discussed my only semi-crack theory that Adolin and Maya are going to form a reverse Nahel bond.

I think Sanderson knows that making Adolin a Radiant would be a mistake. The whole point of his character is that in a family of amazing people, he is just Ken. Similarly RoW stresses the importance of Maya's decision to forsake the original Knight's Radiant. This hurt her deeply, but she still thinks it was the right decision.

It would betray both Adolin and Maya's character arcs to have Adolin become a Radiant with Maya as his spren. But on the other hand, there clearly is a bond between them forming, this was how Maya was able to speak in RoW, and both their character arcs need to go somewhere.

Throughout Stormlight, we are repeatedly shown that this new version of the Knight's Radiant is not falling into the same structures and rules of the old one. Lift uses Cultivation's investiture rather than stormlight. The Skybreakers are no longer allied with the other orders. The Lightspren are bonding Listeners rather than humans. And Renarin demonstrates that Nahel bonds are possible that put you outside the 10 traditional orders.

What do we actually know about the Nahel bond?

The Nahel Bond allows a cognitive being to maintain their mind while manifesting in the physical realm

The Nahel Bond requires cracks in a spirit web, which it fills with the ability to utilise investiture

Has it ever been stated in canon that the bond has to be between a physical being and spren? I think not. In fact while researching this post, I found this WOB, stating that a Spren could bond with another Spren.

There is a tendency to assume that the relationship works in terms of "Spren get anchored in the physical realm and in return humans get surgebinding" but it's not actually reciprocal like that. Neither side is giving these abilities to the other, they are a natural side effect of the bond. Syl can't control when and how Kaladin gets his powers, it's based on how closely their goals are aligned and she can't use them without him. And the hypothetical spren-spren bond demonstrates that giving a human/listener powers is not a requirement of a bond.

My theory is that the bond forming between Adolin and Maya will go in the opposite direction to the ones seen elsewhere in the Cosmere, filling the cracks in a Spren's spirit web rather than a human's. I don't have a clue about what this will mean for the two of them.

Will Maya get new abilities as a result of this? I suspect so

Will they be weird and warped versions of the normal Edgedancer powers in the same way that Renarin has distorted Truthwatcher powers? I expect so

How will this affect Adolin? Not a clue. Though the idea that Maya could summon him as a blade in the cognitive realm is too hilarious not to consider. And there's something oddly fitting in the idea that he loved swords so much he became one.

[riaaanna]

‘Brian’s grandkids call me "Nana Neet"’

Anita Dobson on her favourite festive memories, finding fame overnight and why she’s a homebody at heart.

Anita is step mum to Brian’s three children

The festive season is fast approaching, and it wouldn’t be Christmas without an onslaught of feel-good films. While many of us will no doubt be sitting down to watch Nativity, Love Actually or The Holiday, there’s a new corker coming this year too. Entitled Christmas at the Holly Day Inn, it’s a family-friendly, multi-generational romantic comedy about an over-achieving executive who quits her job just before Christmas and goes to her father’s country inn to try to find some balance. Her father is played by former Dr Who Colin Baker, while his love interest is played by ex ‐EastEnder, Anita Dobson.

“We all need dreams and a bit of magic in our lives, don’t we?” Anita (74) tells Yours. “This film is perfect for the festive season. I’m playing a lovely character called Molly, who runs a café in the village where Holly Day Inn is situated. She has a soft spot for Ben, played by Colin Baker.”

Back in the real world, Anita – or Lady May – is looking forward to sharing Christmas with her husband, Queen guitarist Brian May (76). She’s also excited to spend time with his grandchildren – and his children, James, Louisa and Emily, from his marriage to first wife Christine Mullen.

“I thoroughly enjoy being a step-grandma to Brian’s seven grandchildren,” she tells us. “They range in age from late teens down to about five. They call me ‘Nana Neet’ – Neet is what friends and family call me.”

Anita and Brian live in rural Surrey, but the star grew up in London and she says her most memorable Christmas was when she got a red bicycle. “I must have been about seven,” she recalls. “I’d desperately wanted a bike – a few of the other kids in our flats had one, but mum and dad didn’t have much money. I couldn’t bear not knowing if I was going to get one, and I needed to prepare myself for disappointment, so in the early hours of Christmas Day morning, I crept into the living room to see. There it was by the tree – my red bicycle. I can’t begin to tell you how thrilled I was. I went back to bed and when we got up, I pretended it was a big surprise.”

It’s hard to think of Anita and Christmas without recalling her iconic episode of EastEnders on December 25, 1986. Her character Angie Watts was served divorce papers by her philandering husband, Den, and the drama pulled in an extraordinary 30 million viewers. “If you do something that captures the imagination the way that EastEnders and Angie and Den did, you have to be proud of it,” says Anita, who recently starred in Doctor Who and a new series of Inside No.9. “I’m very proud of it. Thirty million viewers? Not bad, is it!”

Anita and Brian with family at his investiture earlier this year

While Angie and Den were famously fiery on screen, Anita says she and the late Leslie Grantham got along famously. “There was an instant rapport,” she says. “Leslie was amazing to work with because we never discussed it. He used to say, ‘Your mouth shuts, mine opens. My mouth shuts, yours opens.’ We knew exactly how to cover each other’s backs. It was remarkable.

“Playing Angie completely and utterly changed my life. I went from 0 to 100 practically overnight. Before EastEnders, I’d been a jobbing actress for a long time and then suddenly this gift of a role landed into my lap. Everything changed.

“The lady who ran the corner shop near where I lived in the real East End told me the bloke who lived across the road from me had been given a camera by the press and instructed to take a picture every time I opened my front door. I couldn’t believe it! It was like a rocket had taken off and I just had to hold on and wait until it landed.”

Which it did – to a certain extent – when Anita (74) decided to leave the soap in 1988. Her legacy lives on, though, and these days she says she is lucky enough to pick and choose her jobs.

“I don’t tend to do theatre tours which would mean me being away from home for prolonged periods, because I love where we live and our house and I want to spend lots of time there,” she reveals. “I always said that I would leave this life ‘in harness’ – as in still acting – but now I’m not so sure. I don’t plan on retiring but it’s true that these days, I only take jobs that interest me.”

Christmas at the Holly Day Inn is released November 6, 2023 on various streaming platforms.

From Yours magazine November 2023.

[ladystoneboobs]

on this tully tuesday, i'd like to complain about how much grrm ignores the other side of cat's family of birth, as in the late minisa tully née whent of harrenhal. her given name is used in the books so that's one step up from ned's mother, but otherwise she's almost as much a blank in the story. i don't just mean that catelyn can barely remember her, but how the connection between the tullys and whents is just never considered at all.

that recent marriage bond to their overlord should make the tullys' absence from the great tourney at harrenhal pretty glaring, and we know they were absent bc catelyn only hears second-or-thirdhand tales of ashara dayne and never recalls this historic event in her own pov, yet the absence is never addressed. we can say hoster stayed home in protest thinking jaime's white cloak investiture an insult like tywin did for how it ruined his plans for lysa, but why should fans have to come up with this explanation on our own? shouldn't a grand tourney which in hindsight could be seen as the seeds of the rebellion being hosted by one's own kin be worthy of some thought in-text? and when hoster joined the rebellion and started bringing fire and sword upon his royalist bannermen, what did it mean that his in-laws were so close to rhaegar targaryen? we'll never know.

fans enjoy the connection of sansa being rumored to turn into a bat to escape the red keep, or arya spending so much time in harrenhal, but idt grrm was thinking of the connection to their maternal grandmother's house at all. bran and jon can think of their great-grandmother being a flint, but there's no sign that any of cat's kids are aware or care about her mother coming from harrenhal. hell, not only does sansa fail to note a kindred connection when littlefinger says lady whent has supposedly died or think of her own claim/tie when telling him to give harrenhal to walder frey, not only does arya fail to realize that lady whent was her own mother's aunt/cousin/whatever when yoren first brings her up or even when considering revealing herself to lady whent to get help, but catelyn herself, in whose pov house whent is first mentioned, only notes lady shella whent as the last of the line and her father's leal vassal, not also his kin by marriage and her own kinswoman by blood.

source: asearchoficeandfire results for the name whent in the main tl. the late lady of riverrun is nowhere in those results bc her being a whent is only mentioned in the appendices. that's how much of an afterthought the last family to lawfully hold harrenhal and actually live there with their appropriately goth bats banners AND their blood ties to 4 of the original povs is to grrm.

[goodqueenaly]

Say hypothetically Jaime died or was killed while serving in the kingsguard anytime before Tyrion is convinced as a traitor. Who do you think Tywin would prefer to inherit the rock in that scenario, since he's made both his feelings on women's roles and on Tyrion very clear? Who do you think would actually stand a better chance (since Tywin cannot change the legal succession from beyond the grave)? Does it depend on where they are in the time line regarding Cersei's marriage?

A hypothetical covering the span of Jaime’s service in the Kingsguard “anytime before Tyrion is convinced as a traitor” is a pretty long period indeed; we’re talking about a stretch of time from 15-year-old Jaime’s investiture in 281 AC to Tyrion’s trial in 300 AC. (Let’s not even mention the numerous momentous events in Westerosi history in this period of time, much less the absence of Jaime at any given point would have had on these events.) So, all else aside, I think it would be very dependent on when specifically Jaime died in this scenario as to what Tywin might have done about his own succession.

If Jaime died prior to or during Robert’s Rebellion (again, let’s put aside Jaime’s very significant action at the end of the Rebellion), then I think Tywin would have had to consider whether he wanted to remarry. While Tywin IOTL never considered and would never have considered remarrying himself, he could take this decision secure in (what he believed was) the knowledge that he had his perfect golden heir, Jaime. However, without that perfect heir in his pocket, so to speak, Tywin may have felt more pressured to take a new wife, so that he could have a (male, able-bodied) heir of his own body. Would Tywin have looked to another wife, perhaps in particular another Lannister (like, say, one of Joanna’s younger sisters, or one of the daughters of Joanna’s brother Stafford, or his cousin Damon’s granddaughter Lanna, assuming any were the right age), in order to produce another perfect Lannister male heir? It’s at least possible. (How naming the son of a second wife as his heir would have been affected by the Widow’s Law is of course a completely unanswerable question.) 

Alternatively, Tywin may have looked to Cersei as the producer of his eventual heir. Admittedly, such a plan might have clashed with Tywin’s royal ambitions for Cersei, but between the throne and Casterly Rock, I think Tywin may well have chosen the latter. While I doubt Tywin would have seriously invested in Cersei as a future lady in her own right (any more than he did in Cersei as a queen and future queen mother and regent), I could see Tywin seeing Cersei as an acceptable Lannister broodmare, through which his own precious (to him) bloodline could be preserved and produced in an acceptable (read: male) heir. (Again, it’s far too speculative to determine whom Tywin might have chosen as Cersei’s husband, but I could see a Lannister kinsman like cousin Daven or even uncle Tyrek being selected to reinforce Tywin’s Lannister superiority.)

If Jaime died after Robert’s Rebellion but before the death of Joffrey, then I could see where Tywin would simply have seized Tommen from Cersei and raised him as a Lannister heir. There would have been some historical precedent for this, with Lucerys Velaryon being in his lifetime his “grandfather” Corlys’ heir as (ostensibly) the second son of Corlys’ late son, Laenor. With Joffrey assumed to inherit the Iron Throne, Tywin would have, in a sense, the large-scale Lannister political domination he had attempted to achieve in ASOS (notably expressed through the twin Valyrian steel swords made from Ice): the King on the Iron Throne and the Lord of Casterly Rock as the two heads of the Lannister family, inextricably binding the throne to House Lannister in perpetuity.  

If Jaime died in the short window between the Purple Wedding and Tyrion losing his trial by combat, then I think Tywin would have had to choose (or at least believed he had to choose) between versions of the above. Given that Tywin IOTL was ready to taking the new King Tommen back to the Rock to “learn to be a Lannister”, I could see Tywin perhaps simply naming Tommen his heir and installing him at an official or de facto new royal court at the Rock (something along what he had done during Aerys II's reign), fully merging the identities of the royal dynasty and House Lannister as he had begun to ahead of Joffrey’s wedding. Tywin may also have pushed the idea of Cersei’s remarriage even harder in this scenario, which he was already beginning to do IOTL (though whether he would have been so eager to wed her to Oberyn Martell, his preferred choice in ASOS, with Oberyn now poised to father the next generation of Lannister heirs is a more speculative question). Tywin may even have decided that when Tommen had sons of his own, the second son would inherit Casterly Rock - though this succession idea may have been too uncertain for Tywin’s taste, given that Tommen was probably the better part of a decade away from fathering multiple sons of his own (let’s put aside Cregan Stark’s apparent willingness to bet on a similar potential through the Pact of Ice and Fire).

About the only certain takeaway I think we can have in any version of this scenario is that Tywin would have done everything in his power to keep Casterly Rock out of Tyrion’s hands. While Tywin may not have gone quite so far as forcing Tyrion into the Faith, Citadel, or Night’s Watch - Tywin’s obsessive focus on Lannister exceptionalism (and the primacy of his own line within that) meaning that even the lowest and least of the main-line Lannisters, as he saw Tyrion, was superior in rank to every other aristocrat, and so unfit for a life of servitude - I very much believe Tywin would never admit that Tyrion had any right to Casterly Rock (much less the best claim as the most senior eligible legitimate male descendant of Tywin even IOTL). 

[ryin-silverfish]

Nezha the Demon Child: oh god not the discourse

…I promise, this isn't about Nezha's age. No, really, it isn't.

It's about this idea of pre-resurrection Nezha as a "Demon Child", and good lord that's just as discourse-worthy isn't it.

My short answer is "It's Nezha 2019 specific and doesn't quite work outside of that context, if you are using FSYY's version of Nezha's backstory."

My long answer is this entire post.

First, I must define what I mean by "Nezha as Demon Child". It's the popular fanon inspired by 2019! Nezha, who is the Demon Pearl incarnate as opposed to 2019! Ao Bing's Spirit Pearl, after 2019! Shen Gongbao switched the two around, and thus destined to be destroyed by divine thunderbolts in three years.

In the movie, Nezha's demonic birth and out-of-control powers makes him into an outcast, despised by the villagers, and he retaliated with some pretty mean pranks.

But whereas 2019! Nezha's parents still love him and try their best to give him a good childhood in those three years, in the "Demon Child" fanon of JTTW adjacent works, Li Jing is the one who despises Nezha and sees him as a demon from the moment of his birth, and sometimes Jinzha and Muzha too.

Now, I have made it pretty clear before that I'm not a big fan of Li Jing. However, if we are just looking at FSYY novel, how much support can we really find for the "Demon Child" idea?

Well, for starters: there is only the Spirit Pearl/Lingzhu Zi in FSYY proper, who reincarnated as Nezha, destined to become the Vanguard of the Zhou Army in the upcoming War of the Investiture.

When Lady Yin gives birth to a ball of flesh after 3 years of pregnancy, two servants report to Li Jing that she has given birth to a demon. Li Jing rushes into the room with a sword and cuts the ball open, and a little kid jumps out and starts running around, and this is Li Jing's reaction:

李靖骇异，上前一把抱将起来，分明是个好孩子，又不忍作为妖怪坏他性命。乃递与夫人看。彼此恩爱不舍，各各忧喜。

Rough translation: "Shocked, Li Jing stepped forth and lifted him up into his arms; such a fine child. He could not bring himself to harm the child as a demon. Then he passed him over to his wife, and the couple showered him with affection, despite their individual joys and worries."

The next day, Taiyi showed up to congratulate him, asked about the timing of his son's birth, and basically went "Ah, crap." See, because the child is born at the hour of Chou, he is destined to break 1700 prohibitions against killing. Right after dropping that bombshell, Taiyi named the child Nezha, took him as his disciple, and just…left.

Soon, Li Jing got a report that 400 vassals had rebelled all over the realms, because prior to this, King Zhou had summoned his four major dukes to the capital, killed two of them, imprisoned one, and only left Chong Houhu the asshole bootlicker untouched, at which point the two dead dukes' sons promptly rebelled.

As Nezha grew to the age of seven, Li Jing was still conducting drills in case of an attack by the new Duke of the East's rebel army.

So what does it all mean?

Well…it sure doesn't support the idea that Li Jing despised Nezha because he still thought the child was a demon after cutting open the meatball.

He could plausibly be unsettled by the whole "break 1700 prohibitions against killing" prophecy, but instead of being abusive, I think it's more likely that he just neglected Nezha due to his duties as a general, leaving it entirely to Lady Yin to raise the kid.

Which is still not the best parenting, but with different implications for Nezha's character. Like, FSYY's Nezha gives me the vibe of someone who just doesn't quite understand social norms, or human behavior in general, or what a healthy degree of fear even feels like, and being outright despised or abused as this "Demon Child" would have taught him to fear things very quickly.

If he was indeed feared by Li Jing, it's less "suffer not the yaoguai!" and more "let's keep our third kid happy and ignorant and never let him out of the house again."

To use a fucked-up analogy…Nezha is less this dangerous hound that must be chained to a wall and whipped into submission, but a fine, powerful weapon Taiyi had left to them for safekeeping purposes, much like the Qiankun Bow & Sky-shaking Arrows sitting in their backyard building.

Perhaps he still isn't seen as his own person or treated like a regular, flesh-and-blood kid, yet it won't make sense for Li Jing or his older brothers to do the equivalent of spitting on this precious weapon or kicking it off the stands.

(Since Nezha doesn't even recognize Muzha when they run into each other during the Attempted Patricide Arc, my HC is Jinzha and Muzha both left home to study under their masters at a pretty young age, and rarely came back for visits.)

Like, I can still see Li Jing being this stuck-up and emotionally distant guy who only interacts with his kids to "check on their homework", so to speak.

Or Lady Yin coddling Nezha, partially because she wants to make up for Li Jing's absence, and partially due to the vain hope that, by sheltering her youngest child from the world, she might be able to shelter him from his very destiny too.

...

Here's where I go off a tangent: on a meta level, Nezha isn't a demon or an aberration of the natural order (which yaoguais are often seen as) either. This is very much informed by a Chinese essay called 由哪吒看《封神演义》的天命世界 that analyzed the character in relation to FSYY's view of Fate.

It is very well written and has given me quite the emotional damage (/hj).

Specifically:Nezha is destined to violate 1700 prohibitions against killing, not because he is "evil" or demonic, but because he's born to be an executioner carrying out the Will of Heaven.

He is the very embodiment of the "Peril" that is the War of Investiture, and thus must suffer through his own perils, to be ritualistically remade in death into a demigod-like warrior.

Much like how the Chan 12's participation in the War of Investiture is, in and of itself, a Peril, something they must endure and survive as the consequences to their causes——failing to sever the Three Corpses and breaking prohibitions, Nezha's suicide served as his Peril, a death that shall cleanse him of his guilt and satisfy the karmic laws while also fulfilling his destiny.

Everyone he killed in battle follows the same logic: they have violated taboos (more true for the Jie Sect immortals), gone against the impersonal, ironclad Will of Heaven yet paradoxically playing straight into Fate's hands, as their deification through death has proven——a Peril as well as a consolation prize.

To folks that don't buy into FSYY's view of Fate and think it's bullshit, or don't understand the logics of deification: an alternate and more "modern" interpretation of Nezha's suicide may be an attempt at finding freedom.

After all, what's a weapon's biggest act of resistance, but breaking itself?

After this, I'll never owe anyone anything again. My debts are repaid. I'll never see my mother cry. I'll be no one's son, no one's disciple, a blade that will never be sheathed and left to gather dust in the attic, obstructed, then blamed for doing what it's made for.

It also isn't as simple as he thought. Death, as well as freedom.

Looking back centuries later, he'll probably cringe at his younger self too.

This? This is what you think your destiny, or freedom from it, looks like? Dishing out death indiscriminately without understanding what it means and lashing out in a fit of rage——it doesn't make you a good warrior, or even a good weapon, just a mad dog!

Like, I think Nezha can be rightfully pissed at Li Jing's Asshole Arc after his death, while also gradually coming to a more mature and nuanced understanding of violence and his purpose during WOI.

Namely, as ironclad and undeniable as Fate is in FSYY, attributing everything to it is just an easy way to avoid the difficult questions and personal responsibilities.

And I feel like there are a lot of interesting potential in exploring Nezha's post-war arc, of someone who is born to be a weapon, who finds comfort and certainty in that purpose, suddenly having to become something else.

Not necessarily in the "learning to be human again" sense, moreso the divine equivalent of a veteran adjusting to civilian life, exploring the boundary between executioner and protector, while dealing with both the funny and messed-up implications of working alongside everyone he sent into the Investiture.

[nightblood]

I think it's fitting that the Sunlit Man gave us a standard unit for Investiture and had Aux give measurements to Nomad since Sigzil complained about not being able to measure Stormlight precisely when they were testing Kaladin's powers.

[onlycosmere]

Diss the Chris: In Yumi, the outer edge of Kilahito and the Nightmares are being described as being completely nonreflective, and they drip with a black liquid that smokes. The same description has been given to the Midnight Essence and to Nightblood. Are these linked, and indicative of some kind of warped Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson: They are significantly linked. (There you are; we’ll use “significantly” in that regard.)