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When ppl ask why traditional men and women don’t get together the answer is literally so simple. Like these kind of women are all about misogyny until the disrespect comes. And I’m talking true degradation and disrespect; as in they want the man to make all the choices till they realize it’s ALL the choices. They don’t want to think until they realize they don’t GET to. It’s the same reason when ppl ask why ppl like Pearl don’t shut the fuck up since it’s not traditional for women to speak. Their entire view of traditional relationships is Pinterest Boards, Incel tweets, and 40s propaganda posters.
Like it’s all ‘why can’t I just stay at home and cook for the kids’ ok but what happens when you want to go out on a fun trip and he says no. What happens when kid A is sick with X and kid Z is sick with Y and there’s a parent teacher conference for kids L-P and once ur done with all that u have to have food on the table? Like these women don’t think it through at all, which is part of the problem btw like that bimbo resurgence shit is just another excuse for y’all not to fucking think, and then when it’s 30 years down the line and they’re stuck in loveless marriages (because these men don’t love them. They think it’s love but when they tell you to shut the hell up about something you were interested in before them it starts to click) they blame the whole damn world and it’s so sick.
#this isn’t anything new or revolutionary like I’m just sick of seeing the same shit everywhere#it’s not feminism fighting against the trad life btw it’s most definitely capitalism 🙏🏾#y’all (✋🏻) have to work bc we (🙏🏾) don’t do that for u anymore#anywayyys#it’s just so funny#like not funny haha#funny these people are so unserious#and it’s crazy how ppl get comfortable in their oppressions once the bank is affected#almost like that’s the point#sometimes I think we’re making so much progress and then it’s like. we’re back to chapter one#THIS is what 101 feminism should be btw#like idk not to bring up Barbie#but like THATS not even feminism 101#I already said this but like any class 101 plants the seeds of what you’ll be discussing#racism 101 WILL mention capitalism#even in passing#for example#any kind of feminist who doesn’t even glance at it right off the bat?#Idcccc#whatever this got disjointed#I’m not fixing it tho tgtgigi
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the barbie movie was, dare i say it, bad. for the following reasons:
Barbieland, a land ostensibly powered by imagination, is surprisingly stagnate and oddly authoritative: Barbies that cease to "function" the way they "should" are "malfunctioning." They have to go and be "fixed." Main Character Barbie isn't "fixed" because something different is happening to her, but it's already been established that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways to be and act in Barbieland that will socially Other you and repulse your peers ("Weird Barbie").
The movie seems to reaffirm reality as opposed to imagining something beyond the limited, oppressive systems we live under. The movie seems to want to say something about ideas, about the way imagination and ideas have real power over all of us, but then limits its own imaginative horizon. Barbieland is just as fundamentally incapable of change as reality. And that is just kind of a bummer, to me, personally. Not to mention the fact that if you're going to have your movie be about a literal mundus significans, it's almost antithetical to the very idea of signs and significations to have that world stagnate.
I actually think the Ken subplot is really narratively weak. Unfortunately, it's not really possible to make a cogent point about Patriarchy in a movie where the "patriarchs" are footing the bill for the film (and so it's not possible to actually criticize them) and where the Kens are reacting to what they lack as opposed to their own desires outpacing what they're entitled to by the social contract. Ken feels alienated because he is alienated; the movie's conclusion almost seems to convince Ken that he should simply accept that feeling rather than reach for more, like Main Character Barbie does. Ken doesn't really learn anything at all; and maybe that's the point. But I don't know if it was a point well made. Ultimately, the only Patriarchs we as the audience should want to see crushed are the Mattel execs, but they're redeemed through the narrative and are now rolling in money from this movie.
As a nonbinary TME lesbian, I actually felt rather alienated by this movie's portrayal of "womanhood." Throughout the entire movie, Main Character Barbie is constantly wondering about her worth, about what she should do. There are other Barbies who have jobs, but her job was to have a Perfect Day, Every Day. And at the end of the movie, you have this moment that seems to be leading up to Barbie going to a job interview. She's dressed nicely, in restrained colors and Birkenstocks, and approaches a counter and gives her name. I thought she was going to be there for a job interview - but no, her journey culminates in her going to the gynecologist. The thing which marks her as entering "real Womanhood" is to go and get a vagina check. And I don't like that, at all. It really seems to distill Barbie down to her genitals.
Overall, the movie is shot through with threads of gender essentialism that I found out of place. I think many of the problems of this movie come from trying to create a film that fulfilled all the desires of those making the movie (needs to cater to children and adults, but also needs to be okay'd by Mattel) and it led to a kind of messy ideological narrative. I don't know Gerwig, but I do think we all need to think a little more critically about how she portrayed womanhood in Barbie, and how that portrayal actually confirms and validates many patriarchal ideas. The opposite of patriarchy is not, btw, a "matriarchy." Patriarchy isn't just "man in charge" and that portrayal of patriarchy is acceptable in a Feminism 101 course at best. Patriarchy is one form of the assemblage we call Capitalism/Imperialism, which seeks to privilege not just "men" as a general category, but White, cisgender, heterosexual, able-bodied, Christian men. All people are judged in relation to their adherence to the standard of the Overdetermined, White Western Man as described by Sylvia Wynter. "Woman" as a category is judged lesser in relation to that Overdetermined Man, but there are degrees of judgment and social alienation. White Women, for example, will always be perceived as more "human" to the Overdetermined Western Man than, say, an Asian Man. This is because for the Overdetermined Man, race and purity of race is critical. So it's weird for the Kens, who are kind of diverse racially honestly, to be our group of "Patriarchs" to overcome, when the hypnotically white, Patriarchal Mattel board is right there.
Which leads to my last point: The movie is very obviously longform advertising for Mattel. The company had to approve the film, and its portrayal of their company; Gerwig would not have received permission to use Barbie otherwise. This movie cannot say anything worthwhile about Patriarchy because it was made by the Patriarchy. It was approved by the Patriarchs. Because it will make money. And it did. And it did so by privileging, in a really not-so-subtle way, a biologically essentialist perspective of womanhood.
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Can you please elaborate why it is considered problematic that SJM wrote that elain is uncomfortable around lucien? You mentioned in a previous response that it was not a good move for her to write elain being uncomfortable by a disabled POC but I’m not quite sure why that is a problem because she is not uncomfortable because of his disability or race- her discomfort has nothing to do with that.
Also, racism is not an issue in prythian the way it is in real life. You have high lords such as helion and tarquin (among others) that are explicitly POC and there has never been mention of any hostility towards them because of the color of their skin. The only discrimination I can recall is between high and lesser fae which is classist not racist.
I’m just confused why it is considered ableist or racist when SJM decided to write how elain is uncomfortable around lucien when it has nothing to do with his skin color or disability.
On another note- would it have been racist if amarantha (a known rapist) was written as a WOC rather than white? I’m just trying to understand your point of view and I’m a little lost. To me, acotar is a diverse world with characters of all races and some are good, some are evil but pretty much every character has done something morally grey at at least one point in the series. And none of that is not specific to one race vs another. There are white characters that are good, morally grey and downright evil. And the same can be said for other races.
I appreciate any further elaboration you can supply!
Hello! I will try my best. I don't mind answering questions like this! I recognize that I have had a lot of education about these topics and I have learned A Lot from Black women on Twitter over the years. I hope to share it in a way that is useful. I can maybe make a reading list if anyone is interested, but people should definitely ask around so that it's not getting filtered through just one person (aka me).
So the whole thing with talking about race in the fandom is that race does not function the same way in the acotar world as it does in ours. You are correct about that. You may have seen my post that attempted to break down various ways that characters access privilege in Prythian? Either way, yes. It is not a one-to-one correspondence with our world and the book world.
However, there are issues within the acotar world that mirror issues in ours, and the way that fans engage with those issues can reveal underlying prejudices. I mentioned in this post that we don't have to intend to do these things. (Also, intent versus impact is like diversity, inclusivity, and equity training 101. It's one of the first, and most important things you will learn. Even if you didn't mean to harm someone, they still feel hurt, and it's important to acknowledge that.)
The issue with the way people talk about Lucien - and I mentioned in another post that this is perhaps just as much on Sarah for creating this scenario as it is on the fandom for hopping on that horse and riding - is that there is a history of white women being painted as the victims of Black men specifically.
I'm going to put the rest of this under the cut because I want to show you some examples.
I hope that I don't have to explain why this is disgusting. There is a real-life example of this ^^^ if you google Emmett Till and read his story. This is by far not the only example of a white woman claiming that a Black man (or boy, in his case) was harassing her in some way, and often, that has resulted in lynching.
These are clearly older examples, and also really good examples of how people of color can be dehumanized, but these problems persist. The methods are just more subtle. More recently, it could result in police brutality. When that women called the police on a Black man in NYC last summer, it played into the long history of a woman claiming that she was being threatened or victimized by a Black man. As @gimme-mor explained in her post, the concept of white womanhood is often used as a way to uphold racism and white supremacy because it shows people of color as being violent threats, giving white men (and white women) a reason to retain their privilege.
You're probably wondering now what the fuckity fuck this has to do with Acotar and Lucien. I am getting there!
Because of this historical context, there are many slurs and stereotypes used against POC that on the surface, seem innocent. However, they have a deep, dark history of oppression and violence. It's not about the "one time" that someone said one racist thing, but generational trauma. I can't speak to what this is like as a lived experience, and so I would really appreciate anyone who does want to add on!!!
For example, just to take us away from acotar for a minute, there is a problematic, sexist and often racist trope in which characters get fridged. This is a term used to refer to the way that women, women of color, or characters of color (this could include queer and disabled people as well) are killed off to further a white person's story. This happens SO OFTEN. Nehemia was killed in ToG to motivate Aelin. Sorscha was killed in HoF to hurt Dorian. In a multitude of super hero and action movies, the wife or girlfriend of the main character is killed off in order to provide either pain or motivation to the white male hero.
Individually, these events are whatever. Taken as a whole, though... it shows a trend that the girlfriend of the hero is disposable. It shows that people who are not white, straight, able-bodied males are worthless, and only function to further someone else’s plot.
So that's what is sort-of happening here. After a long, long history of white women positioning themselves (or being positioned) as the innocent victims of brutish, violent, barely-even-human men of color, there are some disturbing parallels when people try to say that Elain is a shrinking violet next to Lucien's insistent attentions.
The context is everything. It's not about this one event, but that there is a history in the real world of this trope playing out over and over, and it has even been an explicit tactic used to perpetuate white supremacy.
This context influences the way that we interact with one another in fandom. The point of that post was not to critique the acotar series itself, but to expose some problematic aspects of the fandom.
I am not going to speak for anyone else, but I think that the original intent of pointing out this parallel between Elain/Lucien and white feminism was not that we want people to stop saying that Elain feels this, or Elain feels that, or Lucien is doing this or that, etc. The reason why this has been mentioned in the past is because there are some very uncomfortable, violent historical precedents set, and while people may not realize that those exist, they may be unintentionally furthering that stereotype.
There were many, many other points made in that post that I think bear repeating and further attention. I hope that this made sense. It's hard to condense literal centuries of racism like this, and of course I am only talking about the context in the U.S. I'm sure it's different elsewhere.
The main takeaway from that post, though, is that it wasn't about the world itself. It was about the way that the fandom engages with the world, and how they utilize some problematic tools to do so. Critiquing the world itself is a completely different issue, which... I will sorta touch on now!
One last point, since you brought up Amarantha and the potential of her being a WOC and a rapist - it could be viewed as problematic and racist, due to the oversexualization of Black women in particular (again, the context throughout history supports this). However, that would not be a fandom problem! That would be an sjm problem.
BTW - I do have serious problems with the way that Illyrians are portrayed in acotar, again because of the history of POC being portrayed as uncivilized, brutish, violent, and... that word that means someone isn't religious. I am getting tired and forgot the word. When sjm says that Illyrians are that way, and when she emphasizes the fact that they are a race... yikes. It's not racist of us to point that out, but it was highly questionable that she created them to be that way in the first place.
Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense, please! To anyone reading this to the end, first off RIP! But also let me know if I've gotten something wrong or if you see something differently.
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Lanque...why?
I wanna start off by saying three (3) things.
1. I am feeling much better now.
2. A few months ago, back in July maybe, I had a dream that I was still in high school (yikes!) and I had just moved to a new school (double yikes!) and Lanque went there for some reason and he was also the only troll there. Anyway he was very nice but all his friends called him “fingers in his ass Lanque.” Not kidding about this dream btw! Anyway I just wanna say r.i.p. to that perception of Lanque.
3. I wanna give a shout out to Diemen “I love putting drugs on my wiener” Xicali
This is gonna be an incredibly long post so I’m putting the rest under a cut.
So where do I even fucking begin.
I’ll start with Lanque’s life as a character, not his life within the canon of Hiveswap.
As we all know, Lanque’s design was leaked long before his official appearance in the trollcall. A lot of people thought he was a butch lesbian mostly because of his resemblance to Sailor Uranus who was a lesbian in the original Japanese dub of Sailor Moon and apparently he looked like a character from Utena but idk anything about Utena.
As we all know after Lanque’s official debut he was revealed to be a transgender man by infamous incest-shipping shithead Cohen Edenfield, (and one other person who idk anything about so I’m leaving them out of this) who also wrote Hiveswap and may I remind everyone that Dammek and Xefros’ relationship was marketed as wholesome and sincerely friendly and later it was revealed to be abusive. All I’m saying is that there’s a pattern here!
Need I also remind everyone* that after Cohen revealed that he shipped incest it provoked a trauma episode in someone who was formerly a big name homestuck blogger on here and they had to leave the site for months for their own safety. Shit like this does affect people, it’s almost 2019 and we should all have the mind to think about how our words and actions affect others.
Now I’m not trans so I’m not gonna speak too much on this but personally I don’t think they intended for Lanque to be trans but rather what happened was they seen that the transmale community latched onto him and confirmed him as trans because of that. After all the friendsims have been taking cues from the fans (Galora becoming canon is a major example along with Amisia and Chahut being friends). It feels like a mean spirited trick and I can only imagine how shitty it felt for transgender men and boys who were hoping Lanque would be an actually decent person.
Onto the “good” route.
I don’t even consider this route to be Lanque’s route. It’s a sequel to Lynera’s route. I don’t mind this because I’m always happy to see Lynera but wow I wish I had seen her under better circumstances.
I’ve seen some people saying that the flower crown Lanque is wholly different from the Lanque from the other two routes but I disagree. It’s well known that abusive people often seem very charming and kind at first. In general, if someone is too charming, too kind, and seems too good to be true then they probably are.
The whole reason Lynera asks MSPA reader to go with her to the party is because she’s scared of Lanque. She fucking admits it to his face in a fit of anxiety. Which is to say that Lanque is an asshole in all three endings, we just see it to varying degrees. Also Lanque’s poem sucks.
As far as the other two endings, what can I possibly say? What can I fucking possibly say? Honestly, what can I say? I’m speechless at what happened. As soon as Lanque called Lynera a bitch tears welled up in my eyes and I only halfway succeeded at holding them back. When men call women bitches it comes from such a vitriolic place and even though the friendsims have no voice acting I could practically hear the hatred in Lanque’s voice.
There’s really nothing else to say about those two endings.
It’s interesting to note that much of the dialogue in Lanque’s route is very tongue in cheek and breaks the fourth wall (”What about you? Oh I’m not real” “I mean I’ve had feelings for a girl before so it’d be really problematic if I liked a boy now.”)
And the reason I bring this up is because of that last quote. Literally what the fuck. What was the point of that. Best case scenario is that everyone ignores it and moves on but because I’m typing this right now we all know that’s not the case. Literally all this line is going to do is promote tension between lesbians and bisexual women. It feels very intentional and very much like a jab at how lesbians and bi women seemingly can’t get along. It’s insidious. If someone thinks of Lynera as bi then that’s cool I honestly don’t care but her interactions with Lanque shouldn’t be used to justify that. Here’s why.
1. She outright admits she’s SCARED of him. She admits this in a fit of anxiety where she accidentally reveals her true feelings. IF she did have a crush on Lanque she wouldn’t have said “and I’m scared of you” she would’ve said “and I secretly have a crush on you and I’m scared of looking stupid in front of you.”
Also it’s literally feminism 101 to listen to people when they express disinterest. It’s also feminism 101 to not call people sluts as shorthand for “provocatively dressed” or “scantily clad” but that happens in this route too so whatever.
2. When Lanque starts coming onto Lynera the reader states that they think she’s not into it. Yes you can be flustered around a crush but that should mean that you have butterflies in your stomach and are scared of making a fool of yourself in front of them not that you are literally fucking scared.
So, how could Lanque have been better?
Hear me out. In his original trollcall card, it says he “still has a livechurnal” (read: livejournal). So they could have made him super behind the times technology wise. Maybe they could’ve shown him having a busted old computer that still runs Windows XP because hey, it still works. Maybe his main pastime is playing minesweeper or virtual solitaire. Maybe he doesn’t even have a smartphone. The plot of his route could’ve been that his old computer finally breaks and he has to get a new one. Also, have him talk a bit about being trans and hire a trans sensitivity reader to make sure everything makes sense and isn’t offensive.
Also, there is literally no reason for Lanque to be so shitty. The reason why Vriska and even Gamzee to an extent are beloved characters is because they have a motive to o horrible things. Vriska was groomed to be a child soldier and Gamzee was a victim of child neglect. Lanque has none of this.
I’m also very worried for Wanshi and I hope she never finds out how terrible Lanque can be.
Also, fun fact: apparently Livejournal is very popular in Russia. According to Wikipedia, Livejournal is the largest social media site on the Russian speaking portion of the internet, and half of Livejournal’s userbase is from Russia. The more you know!
If you’ve read this far then I want to say thanks. I also want to provide a link to “Why Does He Do That?” by Lundy Bancroft. It’s a fantastic book that has helped me understand why my dad is the way he is and if you’re dealing with or have dealt with abuse in the past this book will almost certainly help you. It mainly focuses on abusive men and intimate partner violence but the information this book provides can be applied to nearly every abusive person. Here’s the free pdf: https://www.docdroid.net/py03/why-does-he-do-that.pdf
I’ll be writing a post about the Soleils tomorrow,
- Mod Jessica
#mod rei-mary#not tagging this with anything else because of discourse#i dont wanna get wrapped up in drama sorry
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Reacting to Orphan Black: 101-103
WHO IS TRYING TO KILL THEM AND WHAT IS THIS CLONE STUFF AHHHH!?
The Setup: Miri has seen all available seasons of Orphan Black and is lowkey obsessed. Liz has been interested for a while but has never watched an episode until now! Kris has seen the first season (and will eventually finish) and Marchae has seen everything.
As always, notes after the fact are in italics. Up next: Miri and Marchae react to Issa Rae’s Insecure.
MIRI: Ok, so what did you think about the glory that is Orphan Black??
LIZ: I think I have so MUCH ahead of me (I’ve watched 2.5 episodes as of now)! I also feel like I have more questions than comments, but don’t give into my thirst for spoilers.. I don’t really mean it, but DAMNNNN!
MIRI: Hahahah I will do my best not to give in
LIZ: Felix is amazing and I want to go to his apartment and paint with him
MIRI: because they really unfold the mystery of it all so damn well
Felix!!! ❤️
LIZ: Right, this is an interesting show to REACT to because I know that there is so much MORE!
MIRI: DON’T snap towels at me, Bobby! I had a very traumatic childhood!
LIZ: Maybe I should lay out my main questions to just get them out of my system/
MIRI: Do it
LIZ: 1. Sarah, how are you going to keep up this “pretending to be a cop” thing!? The second hand stress from this.. good grief.
2. WHAT’S UP WITH HER KID? I am mad at her, but I know something redeeming about why she had to leave (I hope) is coming...?
MARCHAE: Liz, you have no idea! She definitely redeems herself in many ways and it gets more screwy as the series goes on. I definitely think giving her a kid also makes her so much more nuanced!!
MIRI: Sarah Manning thrives on stress. Sarah Manning eats stress for breakfast. Sarah Manning also has poor planning skills
MARCHAE: @miri this is perfect!
LIZ: 3. I can’t see her being with that vick the dick.. she makes bad decisions, obviously, but she is smart and strong and to me, that didn’t add up, but I do appreciate his interactions with felix
MARCHAE: I felt the same way for a long time Liz and it is quite incongruent with the character that they create. But I think it definitely shows that strong women can make bad mistakes. I also think that Sarah thinks she wants to be bad… like it’s her default.
MIRI: This is genuinely just the tip of the WHAT’S UP WITH HER KID iceberg in many ways
LIZ: 4. WHO IS TRYING TO KILL THEM? HOW MANY CLONES ARE THERE? AHHHHH!
She clearly has poor planning skills
MIRI: 3) Honestly, that is a slight flaw in the show for me. They don’t make him appealing/charming enough to justify it
LIZ: The shit that Elizabeth Childs was into seems to be pretty sinister.. some dirty cop cover up stuff I suspect?
MIRI: 3a) But Sarah is wicked self-destructive, so that does make some sense on that score
4) HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA I’m not telling
LIZ: I feel like the clones and their vastly different personalities (btw.. she deserves ALL the emmys) are so interesting as far as the different types of femininity that one person could end up taking on.. does that make sense?
MARCHAE: **PREACH**
MIRI: Beth is a source of a lot of questions. They actually do an amazing job of spooling that out over a long stretch
That makes total sense!
LIZ: This is hard to comment on, because I KNOW that I don’t know the half of it and I don’t want to GUESS
MIRI: It’s one of my favorite things about the show
It’s inherently feminist by the sheer fact that there are so many different types of women playing significant roles
And Tatiana Mislay does deserve all the Emmys
Thanks, autocorrect
She has one from last season
LIZ: I know she has the one!
MIRI: Just wait, though--you haven’t even seen her being a clone pretending to be another clone that we already know as a character. It’s just incredible
She uses music to get into the headspace of each clone, which I find really interesting
LIZ: Wow!
KRIS: Everyone should read this New York Times piece from a few years ago, The Many Faces of Tatiana Maslany. “Stephen Lynch, the show’s makeup artist, told me that he is often asked what prosthetic piece he uses for a particular clone’s nose. (The answer: none.) Once, Maslany’s mother was on set watching her own daughter and wondered aloud when Tatiana would be back.”
MIRI: They also do some really cool production stuff to differentiate the clones--i.e. they use more expensive makeup on a clone with more money than they do when she’s playing Sarah
LIZ: Yeah, I should’ve done this after watching a full season! That’s amazing.. something I found refreshing (even in the lovely age of tv that we are in now) was that it has strong female characters that are flawed and driving the action (duh) and that it is unapologetically (from day 1) not putting any of them into traditional femininity boxes... even the soccer mom is a gun wielding bad ass and there’s no focus on her domestic role as far as the plot of the show is concerned (so far)
MIRI: There is an official podcast that I recommend for anyone wanting to know more behind the scenes info! (Don’t listen ahead of the episodes you’ve seen though!)
We can talk again after the first season!
Wine Mom Allyson Alison Hendrix! Love her
Her domestic life does come into play later, but it’s in really lovely ways
MARCHAE: I’m sorry Miri, I feel like our friendship has ended… HOW HAVE YOU NOT TOLD ME THERE WAS A PODCAST!!!
MIRI: OH MY GOD I’M SO SORRY MARCHAE PLEASE COME BACK I LOVE YOU
KRIS: I’ve only seen the first season but Alison is probably my favorite, maybe because I identify strongly with uptight characters whom everyone else thinks needs to Goddamn Relax. DON’T RELAX IF IT’S NOT RELAXING, ALISON, YOU DO YOU. I also had my own weird “which Maslany is this” moment when I caught myself thinking, later in the season when Felix and Alison have scenes together, that these actors had more fun chemistry than Felix and Sarah.
LIZ: Sarah’s role as a mother is so gloriously screwed up and we also aren’t concerned AT ALL about her romantic life and there are so many seemingly progressive shows that CAN’T HELP but make a romantic storyline at least a PART of the leading lady’s life!
MIRI: I love that she and Sarah both have fierce/protective love for their children but in SUCH different ways
Very true!
We all know that I am a SUCKER for sibling dynamics and the Sarah/Felix relationship is just killer
LIZ: I love how she slips into different accents. Each clone feels like an actual different person.. I am in awe of that
I agree!
So far, I think I’ve met the detective (right before she killed herself.. but i don’t even buy that), the scientist, the mother, the “whatever sarah is”, and the german (just because I feel like there will be more)
MIRI: Hahahahhaa
Just to get the names out there:
LIZ: Thank you! Hahaha
MIRI: The Detective is Beth, the scientist is Cosima, the mother is Allyson Alison, Sarah is basically a con artist (at least at the moment), and the German is Katya (though she mostly gets referred to as the German)
So you actually have not met one of my favorites yet and I will say nothing more than that at this point
LIZ: I am excited to meet her.
MIRI: I was actually talking with Andrew the other day and he brought up a really interesting point--the pilot is an amazing and effective standalone, but it’s also kind of a three part intro.
The pilot hooks you completely, but you don’t learn about some of the huge building blocks of this world until the second and third eps
It’s really interesting
LIZ: Oh another reaction I had was that these HUGE traumatic things are happening to and around these women, (seeing the german be shot in the head and having to bury her, seeing Beth die.. and more) and they aren’t crumbling and crying with some wine and ice cream (tv sad woman who CANT DEAL trope)but they kind of go into fight mode and become MORE active and bad ass, which I love.
MARCHAE: I actually hadn’t thought about it this way which I say is to the shows credit. We are introduced into this world where being a strong woman (even as an Alison Hendrix who you would assume is docile) is a given. I don’t expect them not to be badassess. I think it’s the set up. We meet Beth who offs herself and then Sarah’s already planning from that moment how to work this from the beginning. So the show assumes we already believe we live in a world where “them females are strong as hell” and strong can be different for each woman. Cosima’s strength is in her mind. Beth’s is physical and strategy, Alison’s is legitimately the personification of craftiness. It is awesome. ( I won’t spoil who has yet to come) but they all offer and personify these areas of feminism that are often overlooked or given a negative connotation when they are assigned to us.
MIRI: I was going to say that Cosima’s strength is also her love, but then I realized that is also true for Sarah. And Alison. And then I dissolved into a puddle of my feelings about Orphan Black.
MIRI: Yes!
LIZ: I agree.. the word clone isn’t used in the pilot at all!
I think not until the 3rd ep maybe?
MIRI: Exactly! Which you forget once you’ve seen it. They really string out the tension beautifully
LIZ: This kind of reaction to trauma is more realistic to me than the wine cry.
MIRI: In the interest of honesty, I have had a few wine cries in my life, but all of them have been related to the crushing existential dread of job searching after grad school, rather than major life traumas
MIRI: Totally! They get shit done when they have to
LIZ: The women I know in my real life get shit done when bad things happen
yesss!
jink
jinx
hahaha
MIRI: And then later on in the run, they are given the chance to fall apart
which is also realistic!
LIZ: Yeah, they need to at some point!
MIRI: Again, through the sheer presence of so many women (and having to work hard to differentiate them!) the show does so much showing of women as different
which is what I think we really need!
LIZ: It’s so hard to focus my brain to stick to the episodes I’ve watched and explore those thoughts because they build the suspense so well that i just want to know more and more!
MIRI: Well, put your questions out there! I won’t answer but they’re a nice reminder of what is revealed when and how well they raise all of those questions
LIZ: The more female driven amazing shows I watch, the more infuriated I get when I see more of the same from other shows (which is not really fair, but when you know that something like this is out there.. it’s so hard to accept stereotypes and weak or sexualized female roles which are still so rampant)
MIRI: It is fair! Keep your anger! Let it fuel you to make more amazing and female driven content!!!!
LIZ: My main question is WHEN IS SARAH GOING TO BE FOUND OUT TO NOT BE A COP AT WORK? Are they like the worst detectives or what? Then.... WHO IS TRYING TO KILL THEM AND WHAT IS THIS CLONE STUFF AHHHH!?
MIRI: It clearly can be done AND BE SUCCESSFUL so there are no more excuses for shitty 5:1 ratios, sorry
Are they bad detectives or is she just a super awesome con woman?!
Seriously, that sequence of her destroying the credit card and learning how to play Beth is amazing in so many ways
LIZ: She kept saying she needed the money mostly because of a domestic issue and her male partner didn’t seem to give a shit about her safety and that really upset me and lead me to believe that he is either so principled that it is his fault or he is bad news bears...that is kind of a question ha
MIRI: Oh Art
LIZ: She’s a good con woman, but she doesn’t know how to talk or act like a cop and she’s stumbled in front of them so many times that I am confused.
MIRI: That is fair
LIZ: I agree about the Beth stuff.. she did study how to be her in that way so watch some damn detective stuff so you know what the lingo is, girl!
MIRI: Hahahahaha
Sarah Manning does not do her due diligence of tv watching
That is a valid criticism
LIZ: She can’t be still
she may have ADHD
I also have questions about the science of cloning
MIRI: I may not have answers but let’s not let that stop us
LIZ: and about how easily felix faked her death and funeral, while being the closest person to her and obviously not sad that she is dead and doing things like taking HER call during HER funeral.. that was hilarious, but how dumb are people!?
MIRI: DO NOT INSULT STEAMPUNK BOB THAT WAY
(was that his name? I feel like I’ve gotten it wrong but the enthusiasm is what should be counted)
MIRI: His name is Rockabilly Bob and I am ashamed to have forgotten it
LIZ: Well, I have questions about how similar each of them are and the whole nature v nurture thing.. am I going to figure out that each of these drastically different ladies have the same core personality flaw that manifests in various ways ORRRRR are we meant to believe (seems like this is more likely right now) that their personalities are a product of their environment and they really are so different and it is creepy that they share the same genetic makeup and have nothing else in common?!!!?!
I am not sure, but AHAHAH about Bob .. so sorry
MIRI: Well my non-answer to that would be look at siblings
Obviously less closely genetically related than clones
But--even growing up in the same house!--can be very different while sharing significant portions of DNA
So every little change changes a lot, is my opinion
LIZ: Also, are any of the clones suffering from anything that is hereditary?
MIRI: I also think gene expression is a factor--even two genetically identical people will have physical differences because the same genes are not always expressed the same way
LIZ: Also, do you think the show is making any statements about anything I’ve grabbed onto from these first episodes, whether that is femininity, nurture v nature, family, crime, or literally anything?
MIRI: You see that with identical twins who have physical differences
Oh! Identical twins are a much better illustration of my earlier point
Same DNA, different people
LIZ: Yeah environmental factors can cause genes to mutate faster (if at all)
WE ARE SUCH SCIENTISTS RIGHT NOW
MIRI: SCIENCE, BITCHES
I definitely think the show is making statements
I will not comment on what they are yet
I will say that sometimes they find the statements as they go
LIZ: here to save the world with pure conjecture and a lot of blind confidence (that is the rest of the song.. SCIENCE BITCHES)
I have a lot to do today... but I must keep watching.. honestly, I’m shocked that i am not halfway through season 3 right now with my binging practices
I knew I saved this show (which I knew I’d love because I trust my friends and their tastes) for a great reason haha
MIRI: My favorite example of finding the meaning as they go is a clone you see in passing in one season and do not meet until the next season. She was designed as kind of a joke--how totally crazy a version of Tat can we put together--and then they took that very one dimensional person and went deeper to find a genuine character beneath her. It wasn’t necessary and it really works
Yay for the right show at the right time!
LIZ: Ooo I am so excited
is that your favorite character?
or is that just another
MIRI: Nope!
LIZ: how many clones are there?
MIRI: Although I do adore her
NOT TELLING
LIZ: ha
MIRI: Also i don’t think I know definitively yet
LIZ: This show must be a bitch to edit and to make in general, but I SO appreciate the efforts
MIRI: Yes!
Omg can we talk about the scenes with more than one clone in them
MARCHAE: Liz there is a great video out there where they show how they edit with TM dancing and they edit each one in and out of the scene :) it’s a delight.
KRIS: Here it is! There may be a mild to moderate spoiler in this about character allegiances but there’s no dialogue so I’ll leave it to Miri and Marchae to decide if Lemon can watch it (I haven’t seen this season).
MIRI: LEMON IS NOT ALLOWED TO WATCH IT, nor is anyone else who hasn’t seen OB yet. The relationships between some of the characters change pretty drastically between first meeting and this, and they play that change out so beautifully that I don’t want it ruined for anyone. Come back later! The video will still be here!
youtube
LIZ: of course!
MIRI: because the more you learn about how they actually do it the more in awe you will be
So there is an actress named Lexi Kathryn Alexandre
MIRI: Did I genuinely not question thinking that someone had named their child Lexi Alexandre? That is a comic book villain’s name.
KRIS: Actually I assumed you were thinking of Lexi Alexander, the director of Punisher War Zone and a few episodes of superhero TV.
MIRI: Oh no (pronounce that in your head like Phoebe on Friends for full effect). Now I am both forgetful and a little mean to Lexi Alexander/her parents. And of course you’re right.
And she is the primary stand in
So she acts as all of the clones too
KRIS: Here’s a profile of Kathryn Alexandre in Variety! (photo by Chris Woods for Variety)
LIZ: wow
MIRI: She and Tatiana Maslany have to sync their performances to such an insane level
And of course there are other stand ins for multi clone scenes
but basically they both act both parts of the scenes
LIZ: 😱
MIRI: and in different takes the camera (with a preprogrammed set of shots/moves) records both
LIZ: Does the other actress appear on the show? Imagine being an actress and never being seen but doing all that work!
MIRI: And then they digitally combine different shots
Yes! She has a small role later on
LIZ: continuity is a bitch when filming something super basic
their team is probably so good
MIRI: But the bulk of her work in never actually seen
LIZ: I always look at the makeup when I watch stuff (sorry, but can’t help it) and I am in awe of how that is used to create character and personality (or to enhance it at least)
MIRI: Gosh, I wonder why?
KRIS: Liz’s version of Marchae’s self-censoring is unnecessary apologizing.
MIRI: Tatiana Maslany brings that up in a lot of interviews--it is way more than just her own (INCREDIBLE) work
YEs!
LIZ: thats very nice of her
MIRI: They do such cool things with makeup and making it particular to the clones
Without it becoming cartoonish
LIZ: I’ve seen Tatiana be interviewed a lot and I really liked her before I ever watched
MIRI: She’s super charming
MARCHAE: Fast Fact about Marchae: She really REALLY wants to write a script for Tatiana because she is easily one of the best actresses of our time.
KRIS: I am not disputing that Tatiana Maslany is very very great, but I want to suggest that many more actresses have the ability to do what she does -- Jessica Chastain is a different person in every movie, Keri Russell was Felicity and a pie baker/waitress before she was a stone cold KGB officer, Aubrey Plaza has gone from being an adorably sullen intern on Parks and Rec to being a TERRIFYING FORCE OF NATURE on Legion -- and the problem is that the VAST majority of actresses aren’t given the opportunity to show their range. Maslany is up there with all of them, but she’s also (and I’m sure she’d be the first to say this) tremendously lucky that this has been her breakout show, because now she can’t be typecast.
LIZ: I want someone to come to my house so I can do 5 looks on them right now hahaha
yeah it is NOT cartoonish
MARCHAE: Pick me… Choose me…
KRIS: Lemon (yes we call her Lemon, we’re super original like that, but also it fits we swear), you also have several actor friends and acquaintances, some with quite excellent cheekbones, who might not hate having a little portfolio of radically different looks.
MIRI: Come to LA and make me beautiful
LIZ: I think that the wrong actress could’ve made this show horrible (since she is like a billion people in it..that is obvious, but girl had it going on since the PILOT)
I’m not convinced that people aren’t being cloned somewhere for real btw
you are already beautiful!
MIRI: Completely! You can see her improve later as she settles into all of this insanity, but honestly she is KILLING IT from the first sequence
OH let’s talk about that opening sequence
Thoughts before I excitedly monologue?
I genuinely think it is one of the best opening sequences I’ve ever seen. And (according to the creators) it was pretty much set from the beginning
LIZ: no go ahead!
MIRI: They started with that idea--a woman waking up on a train, going down onto the platform, and seeing an identical stranger kill herself
And it’s just perfect. You know so much about Sarah by the end of it, even if you have next to no details on her life
LIZ: I have like no negative or nit picky or annoyed thoughts about this show (compared to how I feel about so many things I watch) which is a statement of some sort I’m sure, but go on!
MIRI: hahahaha you will eventually question some things
LIZ: Yeah I agree that Sarah is a defined character within seconds of first seeing her!
MIRI: But overall, it’s incredible work and I just adore it
This is making me want to rewatch the entire run in preparation for next season
LIZ: Yeah I have questions and there are some things that are a stretch!
Ha
MIRI: I think they do a phenomenal job of creating little, significant moments/choices. Like, I’m so curious as to why Beth takes off and folds her jacket before her suicide. I don’t know if there’s anything we’re supposed to glean from it but it’s so specific and personal
Ok, what else is a stretch to you so far?
LIZ: Beth seems like a neat, organized, and meticulous person so maybe that is just a nod to that
MIRI: totally could be
LIZ: Her being a detective and the fact that anyone bought that funeral hahaha i guess those are the biggest stretches for me in a show about clones and a conspiracy to murder them all
Is her boyfriend, Paul, gone forever?
MIRI: I just like that it’s a small,r realistic detail that is there because she’s a person who would do that, not because the plot demanded it
hahahahahah
LIZ: YES!
MIRI: Paul is not gone forever
he will eventually give birth to an amazing meme, which I will link here for people who have already seen all the episodes. You should not click on it if you haven’t. SPOILERS
LIZ: Ok haha although I have enjoyed some shows with spoilers in mind (like the sopranos, Lost, and probably a lot more)
MIRI: Nope, I forbid it in this case
LIZ: ok
I WILL LISTEN
MIRI: THANK YOU
LIZ: Crying doggies are going to have to go out soon.. the whining is increasing in volume and frequency!
They have zero respect
MIRI: Hahahah how dare they
Ok, a few quick things:
Do you have a favorite character yet?
LIZ: Yes ask me things and tell me things
Felix
but as far as the clones, I adore the one with the glasses (scientist)
MIRI: Cosima
***Marchae’s comment below the photo has minor SPOILERS proceed at your own risk!!!****
MARCHAE: Cosima is so REMARKABLE and I love her relationship so much. And it is great that she falls in love with Delphine adding yet another layer to these remarkable female character and them doing whatever the F*** they want with their lives!
KRIS: I remember being deeply frustrated with Sarah more than once (in the one season I’ve seen) but never more so than when she disagreed with Cosima about something science-y.
LIZ: amazing name
MIRI: Do you have any theories about who is hunting them or why?
LIZ: zilch
MIRI: (Yeah, Cos is awesome!)
LIZ: why.. bc its illegal and they could be caught bc the clones are so spread out and have real lives and are smart/ found out about each other
MIRI: Not a question, but I want to put it out there that I miss Sarah’s Peak Punk look
LIZ: so whoever made them i think is trying to do it
MIRI: How many clones do you think you will meet this season?
LIZ: like 10? but i am sure there are a lot more
MIRI: Ok, do you have any final comments/thoughts/questions/exclamations?
LIZ: I should point out that in the notes app, I was jotting down a few things while I watched the pilot and one of them is “VICK IS A BUTTHOLE”
MIRI: Accurate
LIZ: umm I just have so many questions, but in an excited way, not in an annoyed way
MIRI: That’s good!
LIZ: Like i am pumped to figure it out and for once, I don’t know pretty much how the show is going to unfold (Aaron is always laughing at my ability to ruin shows by saying.. well clearly they are going to do this this and this)
MIRI: #filmschoolproblems
LIZ: Final comments are that I want to do this again when I am in much deeper so I can laugh at myself now for knowing SOO LITTLE
MIRI: Yes!!! We definitely should
LIZ: I do love it and I am here for it and I thank you for having me watch (or inspiring me to watch sooner than I may have on my own)
MIRI: Yay!
LIZ: ❤️
Anything else from your end that I should know or that you thought when you first watched?
MIRI: Oh I binged the hell out of the first two seasons in like a weekend the first time I watched. No coherent thoughts survived
LIZ: hahaha
MIRI: It was really interesting to go back and watch and remember just how long it takes to learn some of the basic facts of the universe
Basically, it’s one of those shows that does an amazing job of taking the viewer on the same(ish) journey as the characters--you’re only going to get in deeper as more shit reveals itself.
LIZ: so it must get really detailed and much bigger!
I can’t wait
We all hope to check back in with Liz when she makes it further in the season. And maybe Miri and Marchae will have some season 5 premiere reactions.
#orphan black#tatiana maslany#clone club#kathryn alexandre#sarah manning#liz#miri#marchae#kris#marchae after the fact#kris after the fact#Miri after the fact#a little bit too because Miri is never done talking about Orphan Black sorry not sorry#tv#pilot#feminism#reaction
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