#Zuko redemption arc

[mfelewzi]

Evaluating Zuko’s Redemption - Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism & Avatar: ...

So, if Zuko's Redemption Arc would be more Chinese:

Confucian Zuko: he would redeem his father and his sister to follow his familiare duty

Buddhist Zuko: he would abdicate to the Throne to become a Monk

Taoist Zuko: he would abdicate to begin a normal Life in Ba Sing Se or in a different country, After saved his mother and his sisters.

The second was the final that my grandmother wanted for Zuko.

I oversimplified, but man: if One of these finals would have happened, the show had been very controversial to the audience.

Ehi @camcat1320 that for you. Obviously you have not to follow perfectly (especially the Confucian One), but some elements could help you for other characters.

Ah, even for you @zuko-always-lies : here's some controversial endings for our Prince Burned Steak!

Ah, for everyone interested to write some fanfictions about this Fantasy World: here some ideas! You can use them for other characters, obviously.

[kacievvbbbb]

I know, especially with how much more proactive he is in the live action, some people think that Iroh was too complicit with Zuko and should have put more effort into pushing Zuko down the right path.

But I don’t know I think the point was that it had to come from Zuko. This great change had to be something that Zuko wanted for himself and not something Iroh pushes him into. It’s why although he tries to distract or dissuade him subtly he’s pretty content to let Zuko do as he feels the need to (except when he’s taking insane actions that would have killed him if he wasn’t too spiteful to die) but yeah there’s no obvious push to get Zuko to believe this or that or even to undo the fire nation conditioning he simply just worries for his safety and honestly with how reckless zuko was probably the safest route without pushing him into full mental breakdown.

It’s not till he’s almost captured and they go on the run do you actually start to see that maybe Iroh has a side in all this and it’s not the fire nation. But even then being on Zuko’s side takes precedent. It’s not until Zuko is on the cusp of real change, he’s right on the precipice does Iroh start to push a little harder but even then it’s focused in Zuko making a decision for his life one that nobody else can make for him. The closest Iroh gets to forcefully pushing Zuko towards any direction is him yelling “It's time for you to look *inward* and begin asking yourself the big questions. Who are you and what do *you* want?”. And then siding with the avatar during the fall of ba sing se.

If Iroh tried to manipulate him, take advantage of this scared angry child to unconsciously steer him towards his own side then he’d be no better than the fire nation, he’s just be another person wrenching control from Zuko life. But instead Iroh offers him that control, let him go out and see what the world is and let the conclusions of whatever he finds be the foundation on which he is rebuilt again and and again. It’s why when he stands infront of Ozai and says “ No, I’ve learned everything! And I’ve had to learn it on my own” we feel that shit. Because yeah he did he struggled and he fought and he learned and damn it all, he is making a choice for himself.

The story works because Iroh isn’t his mentor, he’s his uncle and he loves him enough to push aside his own personal belief to allow Zuko the space to decide who he wants to be, to give him the agency over his own life. That’s why Zuko’s redemption works so well because he’s not forced into it, If he decides to join the avatar to take down the thrown that has been his choice. If he decides to stay with the fire nation be the prince he was born to be….well that had to be his choice as well. Because that’s the crux of this. None of it matters if it isn’t Zuko, with everything that he has learned, making a decision for his own life.

[beifong-brainrot]

One thing I don't get about the atla fandom is why so many people are so desperate to somehow prove Zuko was a good person from the begining of the show. Or that he was somehow innately better and kinder than any other fire national.

I've seen this point tossed around a lot and I can kinda see where its coming from but like.... guys. Yon Rha did that too. You know the guy who traumatised Katara for life and took her mother? He did it almost word for word.

He went on in there looking for a singular genocide survivor, found that survivor. The survivor gave themselves up after he promised to leave the village alone.

The only difference is that instead of killing Aang on the spot, Zuko took that 12 year old hostage with the goal of handing him over to the Fire Lord to be kept in conditions described as "You'll be kept alive. Barely" by Zhao.

Zuko's paralels to Yon Rha and his poor morals in the begining are crucial to his arc and to his and Katara's relationship.

Hell, you could even point out how similarly shaped the scarlet detailing on the Southern Raiders' helmets and Zuko's scar are.

[ionesyapping]

Notes about this single panel from her 'dream reality':

The guy: He is the guy who in the beach episode invited Azula, Zuko, Mai and Ty Lee at the party. At the balcony scene, Azula tries to flirt with one of the guys (though I don't remember which one and she doesn't seem to remember either) but the guy gets scared (his loss) and refuses her. With him being there it means she has a good reputation and social life.

Uncle Iroh: You can see he is present as well, we didn't see a bond between him and Azula but now we can see Azula wanted him in her life. Iroh is complimenting her, calling her "The conquer of Ba Sing Se" meaning in this reality she did conquer Ba Sing Se as in the canon, thing that Iroh couldn't do. Iroh was also the one who gave her dolls as a gift, nothing wrong in that if he didn't gave Zuko weapons, very inappropriate but it shown how he saw Azula and Zuko.

Ozai and Ursa: Both of them are sitting together, this means they have a good relationship, this means Ursa was never abused or had to leave the castle. In Azula's dream reality her parents are loving each other.

Zuko: There is a lot about him. He doesn't have a scar, meaning he never had an agni kai with his dad, the scene where Azula seemed so happy... she wished it never existed and her brother remained with her. Zuko says AZULA killed the avatar SINGLE HANDILY, again, Zuko was never thrown away so he never had to "Regain his honor". He, as everyone else seem genuinely happy for her.

Ursa: Beside the fact that in this reality she has a good relationship with Ozai, she is also loudly complimenting Azula, she genuinely looks proud of her.

There is a lot more going on but I think you got the idea

[late-draft]

I think one of the reasons I like Zuko's redemption arc is because it doesn't all happen in clean cuts such as "evil-progression-backslide-redemption". He held the status of "fully a good guy" for like, 4 episodes at the end of the show, if his entire redemption was crammed just there, he would have been this "new version of himself" too short and it would have been jarring. Instead he demonstrates changed attitudes gradually, even before he sides back with Azula. Basically the last thing to change is just his allegiance.

When he goes on a date with Jin, he's already relaxed enough to not puff himself up, instead feeling okay with looking foolish. When he's with Katara in the Crystal Catacombs, he's already tempered enough to not instantly explode in rage and screaming at her accusations (instead just rebutting by saying she doesn't know what she's talking about). In the War meeting, he's already on the side of the Earth Kingdom citizens, just scared down to his bones from his father, Azula and other generals contributing to this fear as well.

You get the point. Not only did he show his true core positive personality traits and attitudes he always had even back in season 1, they gradually develop back and reveal themselves fully as time goes, not artificially in sections, but in waves.

[pechuyu]

Im so late to ursa discourse but trying to read the comics and the first few pages of dialogue are so weird

Like i get that azula was the "troubled kid" and ursa wasn't equipped to help or do much but at the end of the day one of azula's core issues is that her mom thinks shes a monster and doesnt love her so it is kinda on her to ensure her kid feels like shes loved by her mom.

Plus talking about "losing" her like shes dead. Girl ur kid was a 14 year old child soldier who had a psychotic break and fucked off into the woods, if ur so upset about losing her maybe you should go out and find her??

Like imagine Azula seeing this. Her mother worrying abt her "new replacement daughter" ending up like her and talking abt her like she's too far gone.

(also zuko knowing azula's struggling, heard her talk abt her mommy issues, and doesnt even try to defend just reassures their mom the new kid won't be like "the bad one" )

(if this all apart of plan i take it back but its not looking good so far lol)

[demaparbat-hp]

Hiii I love your spitfire au it's sooo cute!! I was wondering since this version of Zuko isn't as hell bent on finding the Avatar, what does he do during book one after Ursa gives him Lu Ten? Does he go back to looking for Aang? I noticed he still has his bald pony tail so I was curious XD Hope you're having a lovely holiday season! <3

Hi and thank you!

You can imagine the sheer mayhem when Zuko returns to his ship and crew with a three-year-old in his arms. Iroh, of course, is ecstatic, and Zuko's been holding off a panic attack or two since finding out he has a little brother. The first thing he does upon spotting his Uncle is giving the kid at him, no explanations offered, and shut himself down.

It takes him a year or so to recover and figure things out. Parenting a young child isn't easy. Especially when you're a recently scarred and traumatised fifteen-year-old with a near-decommissioned ship for home and a mismatched crew of disgraced soldiers for company.

As it is, he never does figure things out.

It's reasonable that he doesn't look for the Avatar since...well, he's quite busy during that first year. And when time passes and Ten Ten grows and Zuko does have the time and resources to search for the Avatar—he still doesn't.

Somewhere along the way Zuko's priorities have shifted from going home to protecting Lu Ten II.

[ilynpilled]

i do find it interesting how queasy ppl become when george actually uses real very bad ppl as examples when trying to explain what he is getting at w the issue of redemption and its exploration in his story. like yeah thats what an actual mature exploration of redemption is… the question is can someone like that be redeemed? what does it take to be forgiven after that? is the possibility of it even there? like it is about truly vile figures here and their capacity to change and what that means. him using those examples is not supposed to answer the question itself for u about the arcs in the books lol

[imhereonthekitchenfloor]

HELLO I am watching Avatar for the first time and screenshotted this thinking it was a joke and to come back to later BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN ZUKO ACTUALLY WORKS IN PUBLIC FOOD SERVICE

[yourhighness6]

I feel like people who dislike Zuko miss how important his character is, especially to IRL abuse victims. The journey from scared, angry, isolated and abused to confident, calm, loved and accepted while being handled almost perfectly in the context of his abuse is so underrated even while being hailed as one of the best redemption arcs of all time.

[kacievvbbbb]

I know, especially with how much more proactive he is in the live action, some people think that Iroh was too complicit with Zuko and should have put more effort into pushing Zuko down the right path.

But I don’t know I think the point was that it had to come from Zuko. This great change had to be something that Zuko wanted for himself and not something Iroh pushes him into. It’s why although he tries to distract or dissuade him subtly he’s pretty content to let Zuko do as he feels the need to (except when he’s taking insane actions that would have killed him if he wasn’t too spiteful to die)

The closest Iroh gets to forcefully pushing Zuko towards any direction is him yelling “It's time for you to look *inward* and begin asking yourself the big questions. Who are you and what do *you* want?”. And then siding with the avatar during the fall of ba sing se.

If Iroh tried to manipulate him, take advantage of this scared angry child to unconsciously steer him towards his own side then he’s just be another person wrenching control from Zuko life. But instead Iroh offers him that control, let him go out and see what the world is and let the conclusions of whatever he finds be the foundation on which he is rebuilt again and and again. It’s why when he stands infront of Ozai and says “ No, I’ve learned everything! And I’ve had to learn it on my own” we feel that shit. Because yeah he did, he struggled and he fought and he learned and damn it all, he is making a choice for himself.

The story works because Iroh isn’t his mentor, he’s his uncle and he loves him enough to push aside his own personal belief to allow Zuko the space to decide who he wants to be, to give him the agency over his own life. That’s why Zuko’s redemption works so well because he’s not forced into it, If he decides to join the avatar to take down the thrown that has to be his choice. If he decides to stay with the fire nation be the prince he was born to be….well that had to be his choice as well. Because that’s the crux of this. None of it matters if it isn’t Zuko, with everything that he has learned, making a decision for his own life.

[erros429]

something that irks me so bad are those people who argue that the red dragon fight is when the REAL dungeon meshi starts. like all that character establishment and worldbuilding and relationship development from the first 11 episodes are all skippable, and the only important thing about them is that they litter a bit of context for the viewer. but once you get to episode 12 is when you REALLY need to lock in.

and i just. vehemently disagree with that sentiment so much. the death of filler has tragically ruined the way we engage with media. because why the FUCK would i care about the red dragon fight if i didn’t already love the characters and appreciate their motivation for the fight in the first place? like yea, laios wanting to save his sister and marcille wanting to save her best friend are fine motivations on paper, but i honestly wouldn’t give a shit about falin surviving if i did not watch those first 11 episodes of these characters’ painstaking determination to get her back.

the execution of it all was perfect because those expository episodes were also perfect. and we should not devalue them simply because the red dragon fight was the turning point/tone shift for the overall narrative.

[aerithisms]

zuko's redemption arc is very good, it is beloved for a reason, but it's also poisoned discussion on redemptions in fandom in such an annoying and exhausting way. people always talk about the idea of "deserving" when it comes to redemption and at least some of this feels like it stems from atla depicting zuko as having originally been a kindhearted child who got corrupted into bad behaviour by abuse. therefore he "deserved" to get redeemed because he was always a good person deep down.

there is obviously nothing wrong with this being the way zuko's character is written but because it's the most beloved redemption arc in all of fandom now everyone thinks every character with a redemption arc has to have secretly been a good person all along. as though arcs about characters seeking redemption aren't actually about exploring people changing, they're just about confirming their inherently good nature. i think this is a very shallow way to think about human beings and a very boring way to write fictional characters!!!

the question of whether it's a good idea to give a character a redemption arc shouldn't be about whether they "deserve" it. the whole point of redemption is that the character starts out a bad person at the beginning of the arc, and we explore what it takes for them to change. it's bizarre that so many people in fandom have taken the stance that people don't really change, they're either bad or they're not, and redemption arcs are only for exposing the goodness that was already inside people.

the question of whether it's a good idea to give a character a redemption arc should be about whether it's the most compelling direction for that character and whether it aligns with the themes of the story. that's all. it's not a question of morality as if the characters are real people, it's a question of what the story is about and is trying to communicate. sometimes this means it would be mean spirited and ill fitting with the themes not to give a character a redemption arc. sometimes it means a character who has yet to show any modicum of remorse or kindheartedness will receive a redemption arc, because the story is interested in how that person could possibly change. and sometimes it means a character who does show signs of goodness may never get to realise that, and will never change their ways. it depends what the story is trying to say and what makes for the most interesting and fitting character journey for that story. because the character is not real and is first and foremost a tool to communicate that story.

[physalian]

I think the thing about Zuko’s arc (and I know I’m not the first to say this it’s just on my mind) is that, from the moment you meet him, this angsty teenager is conflicted. He is unwavering in his pursuit of the Avatar, his reason why, praise and recognition, is steadfast, but the source of that praise and recognition comes from an unstable place.

A lot of failed redemption arcs that I see attempt to redeem a character who does not show remorse and even rejects the notions that they’ve done anything to be remorseful over. They know exactly what they’re doing, they know that it’s wrong, but have justified it to themselves as morally superior, that the ends justify the means and are vindictive about it.

Take Enji Todorki. Hate this man’s “redemption”. Hate it.

I’ve heard that we’re supposed to take Shoto’s flashbacks in season 2 as an unreliable narrator… when that is not at all made clear within the story and Enji is set up just like every other irredeemable asshole in fiction.

Enji, in those flashbacks and in present day within the tournament arc season, acts cruelly without remorse. He is not shown with a single second of hesitation or questioning of his actions, that maybe he’s done something wrong, but is pushing through it regardless. Even his pride when Shoto “behaves” all reflects back on him and how he raised Shoto, not his kid as an independent person.

Zuko is different.

He’s not hunting the Avatar because he inherently believes the Avatar to be evil, and he’s only cruel when he thinks that’s what he’s supposed to do. From day one, this boy shows integrity—he keeps his word to leave the Water Tribe alone when he doesn’t have to—uncertainty in his conversations with Iroh in how he’s desperate to believe he’s right, but not that he actually believes what he’s doing is right.

He's a bit incompetent, too, and that’s part of his appeal. He’s not the best firebender, or negotiator, or tactician. Sokka makes a fool of him when he enters the water tribe and he doesn’t lash out burning people because his pride’s been stung.

So you want to root for him, because he’s not a prideful asshole, he’s a misguided teenager you’re hoping will see the light of day, and Zuko’s cruelties never go unpunished by the narrative.

Enji is handed a ticket to redemption because the narrative says so.

Zuko fights tooth and nail for his redemption, even when the narrative keeps kicking him while he’s down.

I’ll immediately be intrigued by a character who’s done some awful shit, and it’s eating them relentlessly from the inside. Even if they deny it, the narrative shows that they’re not devoutly certain of themselves.

I’ll even take a character who is devoutly sure of themselves, but figures it out on their own how wrong they were, and works with the understanding that they’re not entitled to forgiveness, instead of getting pissy when their one cheap bit of charity doesn’t absolve them of their crimes (or when the forgivers actually buy this BS).

If they’re not even the slightest bit guilty until they suffer consequences for their actions, their “redemption” reads like “X doesn’t feel bad because they know they’re wrong, X feels bad because they didn’t get away with it.”

[strawberrybrunette]

Zuko gave Mai a seashell to romance her, she did not show interest in it.

But

Sea shells are found by the sea shore, a body of water.

Zutara fans make that of what you will.

(*COUGH*KATARAWOULDLOVETHISGIFT*COUGH*)

[incomingalbatross]

Perhaps people's issue with the Vader thing is that they misunderstand nature of redemption. People today (and a lot of half-baked redemption stories today too) like to think it's actually about someone who wasn't really that bad, just misguided/manipulated/traumatized doing something wrong, then fixing it and being their true self.

But actually, redemption is at its core is about an evil person becoming a good person. Redemption does not require sympathetic motives for the evil, nor for the evil person to deserve it (an oxymoron) or even for them to be able to make up for it. The foundation for redemption stories is that the redeemed person was evil.

Agreed.