#ursa discourse

[pechuyu]

Im so late to ursa discourse but trying to read the comics and the first few pages of dialogue are so weird

Like i get that azula was the "troubled kid" and ursa wasn't equipped to help or do much but at the end of the day one of azula's core issues is that her mom thinks shes a monster and doesnt love her so it is kinda on her to ensure her kid feels like shes loved by her mom.

Plus talking about "losing" her like shes dead. Girl ur kid was a 14 year old child soldier who had a psychotic break and fucked off into the woods, if ur so upset about losing her maybe you should go out and find her??

Like imagine Azula seeing this. Her mother worrying abt her "new replacement daughter" ending up like her and talking abt her like she's too far gone.

(also zuko knowing azula's struggling, heard her talk abt her mommy issues, and doesnt even try to defend just reassures their mom the new kid won't be like "the bad one" )

(if this all apart of plan i take it back but its not looking good so far lol)

[gorey-gorella]

If Ursa was male, he would be more hated. If Ozai was female, she would be beloved by the fandom and male Ursa beating female Ozai up or killing her won't be seen as badass and quirky as the og gender equivalent of this.

[sokkastyles]

Iroh is likely to hold a selfish grudge against Azula forever, he absentmindedly gave her gift from imperial conquest, abandoned her to an abusive household, shows angry and contempt to her before she does anything wrong, repeatedly tells Zuko to hate her and beat her up, says she’s crazy, puts Zuko and Azula against each other, gets angry that he got burned when he backed her into a corner, tells Zuko she doesn’t love him, even after she makes a speech about how much she loves him and wants him by her side, and treats Azula like the devil, while treating Ozai with much more compassion than he deserves

he’d probably want he to be executed, have her bending taken away, etc.

He also abandoned his traumatized 16 year old nephew to rule over a country all by himself for one of the most selfish reasons ever, so he can open a damn tea shop in a city he wanted to commit genocide in, which is in another continent, he also doesn’t show up to his coronation, what a dick

he also decides not to stop the airships and instead gives that job to 3 children, so he and his cult members can selfishly “liberate” Ba Sing Se because it was his “Destiny” what an asshole

I may be harsh on Ursa, but at least she TRIED

This is why the Azula fandom can't have nice things.

He's not "likely" to hold a selfish grudge, and doesn't in canon, so that argument is moot, anyway. Iroh is actually the one who says in the comics that going with Zuko to find Ursa might be good for her, because he clearly cares about her and wants her to have that closure.

He "absentmindedly" gave her a gift? What the fuck does that even mean? Azula also very purposefully burned that gift, though, while calling her uncle a lazy fatso. Azula stans trying to downplay or justify that by saying Iroh's gift wasn't good enough is really, really ugly behavior, and not an argument I am interested in.

He doesn't show contempt for her "before she does anything wrong", he is actually polite when she shows up lying to his and Zuko's faces, but he doesn't walk into her trap because he sees straight through her. Pretending that she did nothing wrong, when she absolutely has malicious intent there, is stupid and dishonest.

Same with pretending Azula was just defending herself in the Chase, because the reason she was there is because she had mercilessly tracked down the gaang, Zuko, and Iroh. Them teaming up against her is what we call Karma.

Even then, though, Iroh isn't actually angry at Azula. Even when he says "she's crazy and needs to go down," it's delivered in a deadpan and humorous way, not an angry way, and he says it for Zuko's benefit, to tell Zuko that he is allowed to defend himself. It is not about his feelings at all.

He doesn't pit Zuko against her, or tell Zuko to beat her up. He also doesn't treat Ozai with any compassion whatsoever. That's all complete nonsense that actually hurts your argument because it's transparent that you have no actual argument.

I'm also not going to entertain any argument about Iroh opening a tea shop in Ba Sing Se because he also was instrumental in saving that city, which actually changes the whole situation, which is why you left it out. He also did not abandon Zuko. I don't agree with everything in the comics but what they actually show is Zuko not wanting to bother Iroh, but when Aang takes him to Iroh at the end, he says Zuko is always welcome there.

And lol, Ursa "tried" according to you when she's not the current target of your nonsensical rant, but I don't think for a minute that you won't try to turn your "criticisms" towards her if you think it might absolve Azula of responsibility. That's all this is, just the completely ridiculous ramblings of someone who overidentifies with a selfish and cruel character because it feeds your own victim complex. You don't want Iroh or Ursa to try to help Azula, because that won't feed said victim complex.

Again, this is why the Azula fandom can't have nice things.

[sleepyfriend]

Katara and Azula are two sides of the same coin, they’re complex but so important to me AND OF COURSE THE STORY.

[azulas-daddy-kink]

Why do people ship Urzai but then remove/ignore all of the aspects that make it even remotely interesting? As if we all haven't seen "oooh this bad boy is soft for this one girl and violently protective!" 6043468 times before... yawn. Also idk who needs to hear this but Ozai doesn't love Ursa and never did, and vice versa.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

They got to be trolling, right? If that is a serious take, that is almost as bad as the "Azula slept her way to the top" take.

Any take which claims that Ursa should have encouraged Zuko to be more violent toward Azula is a garbage take.

[emma-o-yt]

Chatting about Azula redemption

Inspired by yesterday, I wanna talk about Azula redemption discourse again. Writing off people who think Azula is "too bad" or "underserving" of redemption as media illiterate or missing the point is a tad...quite...very rude.

As for what Bryke thinks:

Yay! So the creators do think Azula can be healed. I wanna discuss why people are hesitant to a Azula redemption.

Don't know who said it but there is a quote that goes like this: "give the fans what they want instead of what they think they want". Fanatics are fickle, for example: Cursed Princess Club. Prince Blaine was never even a bad guy, he just lashed out for a little bit towards the end (it's complicated).

I referred to it as the lashing out of a wounded animal. I was rooting for him however, the webtoon comments were brutal, with some even calling for him to die. I predicted that once he righted himself, the fans would pretend they never said all that icky stuff and he would become beloved. I was right.

Azula has shown that she suffered from internal pain and in The Beach, we see her feel remorse for laughing after Zuko insulted Ty Lee.

However, I think the show is also to blame. "Everyone has the capability of change" is not a notion the show subscribes to, you can see it in the interview above. Can you blame people for having a negative view when the most beloved character says this?

There's also the matter of Azula as a child being cast in as bad of a light as possible, with little to show for how Ursa hurt her. We only get told that Ursa hurt Azula but it doesn't feel true for many because we don't see it on screen.

The Search and comics are in general horribly written and make a mess of Azula's character, ableism aside.

She looks like a lunatic! Look at those bloody red lips! Is she the Joker! THIS is what Azula should look like:

She is a child.

Given that her breakdown comes so late and we get so little of her sympathetic aspects, her initial characterisation is the more familiar one. Contrast that to Vegeta:

Initially introduced as a villain with much worse crimes than Azula, after one arc he transfers over to the good guys. Not because he changes, but because of necessity. He doesn't become good until the final arc of DBZ but he was the token evil teammate longer than he was a villain and has been reformed for 30 irl years.

I find it funny that The Last Agni Kai was meant to be a tragedy that siblings are fighting but people tend to put more blame on Azula rather than her circumstances. Abusive parents tend to pit their kids against each other, making them ignore the real enemy. We shouldn't subscribe to that thinking.

I think season 3 of the cartoon was a fine way to leave her character but having her arc continued, I don't see any other way to go other than redemption or walking the earth. I can't see the satisfaction in that but who knows. If Azula's redemption arc was done well, people will accept it in open arms. Even those vehemently opposed to it.

So yeah.

[pechuyu]

You're 100% wrong about Ursa.

Ursa never thought Azula was a monster, and she never treated her that way. That's why Azula's hallucination of her- coming from her OWN subconscious- is telling her that Ursa loved her. The conversation literally goes: "You think I'm a monster" "No, Azula. I love you." Part of the reason Azula has this breakdown is that she's realizing that Ozai didn't value her and that Ursa- the one she spent years resenting- did.

Ursa never even treated Azula like a monster. From what we saw, she cared enough to try to correct Azula's behavior. So your assessment that she didn't do anything was wrong. Nor did she favor Zuko because she had no issues scolding Zuko when he threw bread at the turtle duck (she also doesn't harp on the fact that he got that behavior from Azula). She also made Zuko play with Azula when she asked. Why would she do that if she thought Azula was a monster?

Ursa never treated her that way. Even in the comic panel you brought up, she asks "When did I lose her?" Implying that when Azula was a kid she didn't realize anything was so severe that Azula couldn't be helped

I didn’t mean to imply that Ursa actually thought she was a monster, it’s more so the way Ursa acted made Azula feel like she did(even if she didn’t intend to). I think she saw Azula going down a dark path and being turned into a weapon but had no idea how to help her.

Also not trying to make Ursa out to be a horrible person. I think her having these flaws makes her a more interesting character. Like you can love your kid and still let them down, especially in her situation where her options were limited.

I do think the show gives us a lot of evidence for her bonding easier with Zuko while struggling to connect with Azula. So while it is mostly due to circumstances out of her control she still owes it to her kids to make them feel loved and should acknowledge the ways she may have let Azula down growing up. She even mentions this in The Search when she apologizes for not loving her enough.

(Plus there is the scene of her laughing at Iroh’s letter about seiging Ba Sing Se, which suggests she also held nationalistic views of some kind. The same ones that made Azula who she is. Which adds an interesting angle to her character.

Overall, my biggest gripe was more so trying to imagine how Azula would react to that conversation and how it would confirm all her biggest insecurities and how she keeps talking about losing her but she’s still alive and out there needing help. Again we see with Iroh, who stayed by Zuko’s side and would defend him even when he was a villain, talking about how he is good at heart(even when zuko wasn’t around). Azula doesn’t have someone like that.

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

That description is from the original (now defunct) official Nickelodeon 'Avatar: The Last Airbender' website. Even if Bryke still considers what was on the site canon, most of Ursa's bio on that site has been throughly jossed by The Search. So, even if I agree Ursa favored Zuko, I don't think it is wise to use that bio as proof. Especially when we can use panels from The Search to back up our claims.

Fandom: Ursa didn’t play favorites! Azula was just mad that Ursa actually told her “no”!

Meanwhile, her official character profile:

[theoneandonlylobster]

You've been an Azula fan practically as Azula has existed. What are some, if any, big changes in how Azula fans have perceived and interpreted her over the years? One example I can think of is that people used to think Mai would hate Azula forever, but now that's a less popular take. Anything else like that?

That's a big one!

People are more likely to see Ty Lee as the one who would take longer to come around nowadays, which is fascinating to me because back in the day I think it was taken for granted that Ty Lee was the more loyal and trusting one. A lot of that is probably due to the rise of other Azula ships to counter Ty Zula (notably Maizula, which barely existed for years, and Sokkla, which has always been around but used to be much more of a back burner ship).

The discourse on her relationship with Zuko has evolved as well. I think most people just assumed or read the canon as her hating him and desiring the throne for herself at first. But of course it's become much more nuanced over the years.

Same as the discourse surrounding her and Ursa/Ozai. Much more nuanced. Of course you still get the people that claim Ursa did no wrong, but there's fewer of them now.

Nobody really even said much about her relationship with Iroh in the early days. Like at all.

It's also become more complex and nuanced as to how people think the Gaang would treat her afterwards, what order people would come around, how Azula herself would feel about each member.

People used to make "jokes" about what she might have done to the Kyoshi Warriors, after she took their clothes. I don't see that at all anymore, thankfully. It was mostly during the nearly year long gap irl where we had no clue what had happened to Suki and the other Kyoshi Warriors. There was an almost 10 month gap between seasons two and three, because Nickelodeon.

Overall, it's very clear that the fandom used to primarily consist of younger people with more shallow takes and views (myself included) that have gotten a lot more depth and maturity over the years. Now we're all older. And we can begin to truly appreciate the most complex character in seven seasons of show.

[sokkastyles]

"I'm not saying Ursa was a bad parent, just that she was emotionally unavailable to Azula."

But...she wasn't??? That's not what we're shown in canon. We see Ursa actually try to appeal to Azula's emotions many times, and Azula react with cold disdain, the same way she reacts to Zuko's and Iroh's attempts to emotionally connect with her.

Literally every sentence with "I'm not saying Ursa was a bad mom, but..." is always gonna be followed by some misogynistic bullshit.

[missaccuracy]

What I find interesting is how fandom cherry picks what Ursa's hallucination says.

In almost every Ursa discourse I see someone claim that the hallucination proves that Ursa loved Azula.

" See? Even Azula knows for sure her mother loved her, because her hallucination outright says so! "

And the same people who think that, more often than not, hold the opinion that:

" Ursa absolutely wouldn't be proud of Azula, because Azula became a bad person and that's why Azula herself doesn't believe this in the mirror scene. "

- What are you doing here?

- I didn't want to miss my own daughter's coronation.

- Don't pretend to act proud! I know what you really think of me! You think I'm a monster.

Yes, Azula doesn't buy Ursa being proud of her coronation, but this is clearly not what the hallucination implies here. The hallucination of Ursa literally says that she didn't want to miss her "own daughter's coronation", impling pride in Azula for her achievement.

Should we also take this hallucination line as a proof that deep down Azula knew Ursa would be proud of her coronation, but denies it? And this is where I think the fandom will disagree.

So why one thing is the truth and the other is not? According to the fandom, we must believe, that Ursa acting proud of Azula's coronation is a lie, but her telling Azula that she loves her is suddenly the truth that Azula denies. I think there's a clear inconsistency here, which is overlooked.

Overall, this is Azula's own belief about the real Ursa:

That Ursa liked Zuko more than her and that she thought of her as a monster and that's why she wouldn't be proud of her.

Meanwhile, the hallucination:

Azula is the center of Ursa's attention. Ursa acts proud of Azula's coronation, reassuring Azula that she's she's just confused and that she loves her.

So I don't know, maybe this is the Ursa that Azula had just imagined to herself, rather than what what she knows, in order to cope with the reality of what she actually believed about what her mother thought of her. It can be just logically concluded that it's very unlikely that these are the things that Azula herself knows.

[avatarfandompolice]

What do you think of that theory some people have that the reason Iroh is hostile to Azula is because he sees too much of his younger self in her? Is it valid or just another forced theory Azula stans have made up to make her look cooler? There is even a post on Twitter about it.

I think this is the extent of Iroh’s relationship with Azula:

• He tried to be nice to her when she was a child and treated her like any basic uncle would.

• He sees her in ATLA as a threat to the world and an extension of Ozai’s tyrannical rule, which is correct.

• He knows she has a lot of issues and doesn’t particularly respect him.

The whole Iroh/Azula discourse is annoying because it mostly comes from people wanting him to “redeem” her as well. Iroh worked great as a guide for Zuko, but that doesn’t mean he could somehow fix Azula on his own. Azula doesn’t seem to respect him in the slightest, and it seems like she even respects people like Zuko and Ursa more than him. The likelihood of him getting through to her is near zero. Zuko already held huge regard for Iroh, which is why Iroh’s lessons worked (as well as Zuko being smart and coming to terms with how bad the Fire Nation is and what he needed to do to improve himself, something Azula has not done yet).

I also don’t think Iroh holds any ill-will towards Azula beyond her being an enemy in the war. I don’t think he’s obligated to either.

[avatar-legends-confessionblog]

I wish we could all collectively pretend we never found out anything about Ursa after the show ended. I much prefer the concept of her fate remaining unknown to both Zuko and Azula, like this big open wound they can never fill and instead need to learn how to accept. So much of the discourse around her just goes in circles. I wish they left it unanswered!

X

[balanceoflightanddark]

I would be curious to hear your full thoughts on Azula in the Spirit Temple

...oh boy...my full thoughts on Azula in the Spirit Temple...

Needless to say, there has been a LOT of discourse on the release of the Azula one-shot these past few days. I know cause...well, I made a post saying my fic was on hiatus till I got my head straight. So needless to say, I've been in the middle of it myself.

The thing about the one-shot though is that it's not just the comic itself but all the baggage and expectations that comes with something that we've been waiting 15 years for. This is the first time Azula has EVER gotten the focus for once. For many of us, this has sort of been a make-or-break situation. I'll get to why in a moment but needless to say, it's been a stressful week.

But having read the comic, I'm ready to give my opinions on it. Spoilers. Obviously.

By now you should know the synopsis: after a raid on a granary, Azula's Fire Warriors make a rescue attempt for one of their comrades, leaving Azula behind. After trying to track them down for their "betrayal", Azula stumbles across a temple deep within the wood home to a monk. Of course, not all is as it seems, as it becomes apparent that something dark resides within, pitting the Princess against her very own psyche.

As I mentioned before, this is Azula's first time in the spotlight. The whole comic is written from her point of view, and she is effectively the protagonist. Going in, I was both excited...and terrified. See, this is her first appearance since the Yang comics and...

...yeah. Needless to say, there's a LOT of bad blood for me going into this comic. So much so that I nearly lost it when I heard some of the spoilers going in.

But I'm getting ahead of myself.

To begin, this comic does the most critical thing right: Azula is NOT portrayed as being an irredeemable monster. While she's still a villain and makes a lot of questionable choices (her treatment of the Fire Warriors is reminiscent of how she treated Mai and Ty Lee after all), she's also given a great deal of sympathy. Probably the most we've seen out of the franchise so far.

If Azula was some kind of monster, there's no way panels like this should even exist. What's more, I actually think it does something that I think wasn't handled well in the series and treated little!Azula as...well, a kid. Not a monster or "sick" as Zuko called her in "Zuko Alone". Just a talented kid who unfortunately caught the eye of Ozai for being good at firebending. Hell, that teaser image of her burning the turtleduck was actually a toy and not the real deal.

It's stuff like this that got me excited for the comic initially. This was what we've been waiting for years now. Writers actually acknowledging that Azula was a victim and not some monster.

...which is why I blew up when the previews turned out to be misleading.

See, Azula doesn't get her redemption here. She's offered one (we'll get to that in a minute), but she rejects it and ends the story as a bad guy. Granted there are hints that she's starting to change, but she's still going after the throne and is still opposed to Zuko. Which...kind of got me upset. Mainly cause I thought it was another bait-and-switch like with Yang hinting at Azula changing at the end of The Search, then going around with her crappy portrayal in Smoke and Shadows.

Course there's only so much you can do within a single one-shot, so admittedly...my hopes were too high. Like, there was a lot I wanted. I wanted the heroes to finally get called out on their bull crap. I wanted Azula to get a break. I wanted...I guess I wanted to feel validated that somebody was listening to us.

And granted there is a little bit here and there. The asylum is NOT looked on kindly by Azula or any of the Fire Warriors, with her even trying to reassure herself she's not being held there anymore.

She even calls out Ursa on abandoning her, saying that Ozai effectively conditioned her into being a weapon when she didn't have any choice in the matter. Hell, there's a heavy implication she's genuinely hurt by what Zuko, Mai, and Ty Lee pulled in the past (which considering what they did in the comics, is a lot) and wants some kind of apology from them.

Again, while she's not entirely a saint here, I don't think they'd have this panels if she was entirely in the wrong.

Which then we get to the redemption offer. Basically, the Spirit offers to give her a chance to change...which she rejects.

The problem is, said chance involves her apologizing to THEM first. And I don't think that's portrayed as a good thing since the hallucination of Zuko looks eerily reminiscent of Ozai and downright monstrous. As others have pointed out, it's clear that the Spirit doesn't know Azula and the "redemption" sounds more like groveling for forgiveness. So of COURSE it's not going to work for somebody like Azula since that won't solve anything for her.

So...we come to the ending.

The Spirit calls Azula a monster, says she's squandered a chance for redemption, and she looks upon the Fire Warriors having fun together and...she leaves...

...alone...

...look. I understand that @prying-pandora666 said this was essentially a reset. Getting Azula to a post-Sozin's Comet state with a fresh start. And I get that. Particularly if the animated stuff is gonna feature her.

...but she's alone...again...

I'm okay with her not getting a redemption since I don't think she was mentally ready for one. But...

sighs

Listen, remember how I said I wanted a lot from this comic? Too much in fact? Yeah. I was so focused on what I needed as opposed to what Azula needed. A fresh slate might be what she needs. And in a vacuum, I think this comic is pretty solid.

It's just everything else is where I have problems.

15 years waiting. 15 years of Bryke/Yang's comics, ableism, and lack of empathy. 15 years of stress, of being seen as an outcast by the fandom. It's...it's a lot to hold. And there's no way a single good comic is gonna be able to rebuild those burned-down bridges. I understand that there's talk of a potential follow-up and stuff for her from Avatar Studios.

It's just...you know. You're always afraid of this being the end. Which...doesn't sit well with me. I'm just afraid they're gonna use Azula as a marketing tool to sell future comics. That they're gonna drag this out. That they're gonna keep playing this centrist field instead of committing (it's fine here, and I do think Faith does lean in towards Azula being sympathetic after all), it's just...

I'm sorry. I want to love this comic and be excited for more stuff with Azula but...15 years is a long time. And it's going to take more than a single good comic to get me back on board fully.

[sh3nlong-promakh0s]

i totally agree with u tho retrospectively in canon according to the comics you can see ursa cares about azula but if you had only watched the show you wouldn't be able to gather that. for the same reason i don't like the comics (except for the art lol)

i also think like the way we see that ursa as a young woman in hira'a had a personality quite similar to azula's: brash, headstrong, and had a tendency towards being bratty and violent (doesn't she punch ikem for some reason) and bc of that i think that her attitude towards azula is even more hypocritical haha. but otherwise ya~ and in the comics i think they do want to mend their relationship and have a deeper bond (with the exception of how azula in the spirit temple ends smh i didn't like the ending it was messy)

Ursa didn't love Azula

And if she did she never showed it properly which... for a child is felt the same as not being loved at all. I can understand especially in the context of the abusive domestic situation their family was in that it was difficult for Ursa to properly parent both her children, but it's not a stretch to say that Ursa saw too much of Ozai in Azula, and she sure as hell didnt love Ozai lol