#all these are literally menelaus about odysseus

[dootznbootz]

I literally will think of the stupidest shit and if it makes me giggle, it's "canon" now. It just is. Idk why I keep doing this.

[menelaiad]

ik you've talked about it before but tumblr blog search on mobile sucks ass so if it's not too much of a bother could you redirect me to your posts on why you dislike emily wilson?

i've never made a post on it. but, here you go:

as a translator? i have no issues with her. her translations are pretty good. so her 'work' i don't have a problem with. don't get me wrong, sometimes i think she toes that dangerous line of 'women good. men bad. feminism.' black and white line very finely. it's a lot more subtle than most modern classicsts but yKNOW.

my issue comes from her introduction to the odyssey. so it's her introduction. her own thoughts. not a translation of something. or outside influence. HER introduction. she says:

The second is piled high with newly acquired treasure, brought by blustering, self-pitying Menelaus. As Menelaus pompously declares ... we meet the beautiful and frighteningly intelligent Helen back home in Sparta, with her wealthy, blustering, and rather less intelligent husband, Menelaus. ...and the rich, narcissistic, uxorious Menelaus.

she then, in book 4, translates the original text in which menelaus is NONE of these things. the only thing he's guilty of really, is the rich thing. cause telemachus is all like 'damn bro ur loaded'. but menelaus is not arrogant about it. he's not smug. he's not narcissistic. he literally says like 2 lines later that he would give away most of his wealth if it meant those who died at troy could come home.

'self-pitying' WHERE?! he cries because he feels GUILTY. the tears are not for him. they are the for the men who died at troy. i'm not getting quotes because it's literally in book fucking 4. he is NOT feeling sorry for himself he is MAD at himself for troy. the only thing i can THINK where he even links his tears to himself is because he says something like, 'every time i think of them i cry because i miss them all' or smth like that. he's not crying for HIM.

'rather less intelligent husband' - you know my feelings on this. menelaus is not stupid. helen is just very smart. and THATS FINE. i love helen being the brains, i'm not against a smart woman and her husband not being as smart. but like. because he doesnt recognise telemachus straight away? or the bird omen? he's stupid? really. we're gonna measure his WHOLE intelligence on that?

'uxorious'. menelaus loves his wife and that's pathetic and funny apparently? tell me. does she describe odysseus this way? hektor in the new iliad translation? i dont think so. 'excessive love their wife' that's what uxorious means. oh im sorry. forgiving ur wife and building a relationship with her and trying to move on together and being nice to her .... that excessive now??? thats??? bad???????

she literally takes menelaus' shining moments in the odyssey. him feeling guilty and remorseful. him showing how haunted he is by the war. him caring and loving helen despite everything. the fact that he is a compassionate. kind. loving man (in comparison to most homeric men) ----- and uses them to insult him. and it just GENUINLEY baffles me. because she wrote that introduction. and then four books later is ENTIRELY proven wrong? im so-----

dont get me wrong. some of this is just very pettty 'you're wrong about menelaus' anger. but some of it is BAFFLEMENT at the fact that she has this in her introduction, those are HER thoughts. and then when you actually get to the text of the odyssey from homer. she is wrong. cause she can't change those greek words too much. translation is a tricky mistress, sure. but she cant go and say 'then menelaus didnt care for those men' because that's just outright WRONG. she has to translate, as faithfully as she can, whats there. and whats there is NOT what she claimed in the introduction.

[fandomsandfeminism]

Thinking about the Odyssey again, the way one does.

And ok, so obviously there is no "canon" for Greek mythology- oral tradition and multitudes of authors spread out over centuries means that even very basic parts of the figures lives- like marriages and children- are rarely consistent, never mind stuff like a coherent and logical timeline.

But here are some facts:

Odysseus first meets Penelope when he is vying for her cousin's (Helen) hand in marriage. Odysseus is the clever bugger who comes up with the vow of the suitors to prevent a war breaking out over Helen, in exchange for an engagement to Penelope. So Odysseus is of marrying age at the vow- Penelope's age is unknown.

Helen and Menelaus' daughter, Hermione, is ....probably around 9 when Helen is abducted to Troy ( I've spent like an hour trying to hunt down the source for this little fact that Wikipedia didn't have a citation for. I've found some translation notes from an 1876 translation that seems to pull this from some of Helen's comments about her daughter when Telemachus is visiting in the original Greek. Old enough that her engagement was already being discussed before Helen was taken though- she's actually getting married to Achilles' son in The Odyssey, which...if she was 9 at the beginning of the war, puts her at almost 30 in the Odyssey? Which...not totally sure why they waited 10 years after the end of the war to get married, especially if she was 19 when the war ended. You see the problem I'm having here? )

So the vow of the suitors has to have been at least 10 years before Helen's abduction if we accept Hermione is 9 when Helen is taken.

Helen's sister, Clytemnestra, got engaged to Agamemnon after the vow of the suitors as well (a consolation prize for him not getting Helen. ugh.) And her oldest daughter is old enough to actually be getting married when the war began (She and her mother believe that she is going to marry Achilles before he leaves for war before...uh...Agamemnon is the worst.) Now maybe Iphigenia is on the young side for marriage- presumably the understanding could be that they wouldn't consummate this marriage until Achilles returned? Assuming she is of actual marriage age though, this would push the vow of the suitors to at least 13 or 14 years before the war begins. (This story about Iphigenia doesn't appear in the Odyssey, and we aren't sure if it was part of the lost Epic Cycle books or was a later edition. More confounding issues!)

Helen was at least 13 when she got married (Traditionally, she was uhhhhh kidnapped by Theseus and returned when she was 12) but possibly as old as 20. 13 would be radically young, yes even back then, but marriage doesn't inherently mean consummation right away, especially for young political marriages. So, we'll say that's the lower limit.

We have no idea how old Penelope was, except that she must have been younger than Helen. (She wasn't married or engaged yet.)

Telemachus is a baby, maybe like 1, when the war begins. This puts an 8 year gap between his birth and Hermione's (And maybe a....12 year gap between him and Iphigenia) despite all their parents getting engaged at the same time, and all of these being political, royal marriages where producing an heir as soon as it is physically and biologically safe to do so would be....a goal.

There are basically 2 possible ways to reconcile all these facts, if was want to incorporate all of them. (You could just....toss out Hermione and Iphigenia's ages and condense the timeline here, but where's the fun in that!?)

EITHER- Penelope had Telemachus early in their marriage, as would be expected, which means Odysseus and Penelope had a very long engagement, her being a literal child of like... maybe 10 at the oldest when they got engaged, and they are still in their like...2nd year of marriage when Odysseus leaves for Troy.

OR- Penelope is pretty close in age to her cousins and her and Odysseus have been married for many years before Troy. Which would imply that, despite almost a decade of marriage, they had only just had their first child. Consider the implications there- possible issues with infertility? Many miscarriages? Would this explain the age gap between Telemachus and his cousins, Hermione and Iphigenia?

If it was so difficult for them to conceive, could that be an *added* reason why Odysseus can't bear to kill Telemachus in his attempt to seem mad (He sows salt into his field in an attempt to make Menelaus and Agamemnon think he's insane so he wont be forced to honor the vow and go to war, but they place baby Telemachus in the path of the plow and Odysseus veers aside, proving he is sane.) Is that thought in the back of his mind that Penelope may not bear him any more children- if they lose Telemachus, then they might not ever have more children?

On top of this being just emotionally more interesting for that moment, I think it pairs more nicely with the actual bond we see between Penelope and Odysseus. Even after 20 years apart, the way they speak about and think about each other feels, I dunno, like they had been together for a bit longer before the war, ya know?

Side note: Paris is promised the love of the most beautiful woman in the world at the wedding of Achilles' parents. And Achilles is at least 13 when the war begins (He already has a son? but is still young enough to be disguised as a "maiden" when they come looking for warriors? This is all guesswork) So...he really had to wait for that promise from Aphrodite to work out.

[johaerys-writes]

Hey!

That ask about favorite mythological characters made me wonder…do you have favorite mythological relationships? With "relationships" I consider them all (romantic, friendship, family, etc...).

Homeric relationship canon.

Homeric headcanon relationship.

General relationship canon.

General relationship headcanon.

Obviously we know that Patrochilles is one of them, but if you want to talk something about them that maybe you don't usually talk about here you can consider them for the ask too!

(And anon from ask about the characters, sorry for copying your model a little lol)

Hi there!! And sorry for taking so long to answer but this is SUCH an interesting question and I have so much I want to say here. I'll try to be as concise as I can:

1. Homeric canon relationships 

Homeric canon has an ABUNDANCE of relationships, both romantic and platonic, and it's just really hard to choose a favourite, or even just a couple of favourites. I feel like I could talk forever about every single relationship in the epic but I'll try not to 😅

I love the relationship btwn Hector and Andromache, the scene with Astyanax and Hector essentially telling them goodbye is one of the most powerful and enduring scenes in the epic. I also really like Hector's relationship with Helen, as well as Helen with Priam; it just feels like they accepted her wholeheartedly into their family despite Paris bringing her there being the root cause of their suffering! And that's so neat to me!! I feel like Homer is a masterclass on subtle characterisation and *showing* the Trojan culture instead of telling us.

Other relationships that I find fascinating in the Iliad are the deep bond between Agamemnon and Menelaus and how protective they are of one another- like you can always count on Agamemnon to look after his little bro lol. The bromance between Diomedes and Odysseus is also really interesting and it's also kind of funny the way other characters in the Iliad acknowledge it. Also pretty much any relationship that Achilles or Patroclus have with other people in the Iliad (Phoenix, Briseis, Iphis, Thetis, Ajax, Odysseus) that shit is like catnip to me I want ALL OF IT and it's literally what I spend a LOT of my time thinking about ahah

As for Odyssey relationships, Peisistratus and Telemachus are CANON okay :)) and they are among my favourites, and another one that's really sweet and heartbreaking is Odysseus and Argos. The best doggo in the history of doggos

2. Homeric headcanon relationships

- Aaaaaahh gosh where do I START!! okay okay so I have a looooot of headcanons about the gods in the iliad and their relationships to their pet humans, I just fucking love thinking about Apollo being obsessed with Hector and maybe something dubcon-y going on between them 👀👀 As well as Aphrodite meddling in Paris and Helen's relationship and maybe having a taste trio somewhere in there 👀 SPEAKING OF TRIOS how cool would it be if Menelaus and Paris decided to settle their differences in a DIFFERENT FASHION and maybe agreeing to a menage-a-trois of sorts >:) Maybe Aphrodite has her hand in that too...... hehe

Also damn listen I'm not going to go into too much detail here but I am literally feral thinking about Achilles and Patroclus who have a sort of more open relationship and are free to mingle as they see fit. Like think of young Antilochus having a huge crush on the Best of the Greeks and Achilles taking advantage of that.... or Patroclus deciding that he simply *has* to invite Automedon to their bed one day, or maybe even fool around with him when Achilles is off with his ships warmongering somewhere. And then when they meet again they tell each other all about their escapades, and.... well..... can't blame a guy for getting all hot and bothered all over again >:))) huehuehue

3. General relationship canon

Generally, I'm always really interested in the relationships between the gods, both the Olympians and the Titan-born. I love thinking of the sibling bond between Artemis and Apollo for example, that they might have wreaked havoc together growing up lol. I also like thinking about Aphrodite and Ares and the way the ancient greeks used to ship those two and how that association came about (love and war), as well as the relationship itself which is both familial (brother-sister) and romantic in nature.

I also really like some of the tragic love stories in Greek mythology, such as Artemis and Kallisto, Apollo and Hyacinthus, Orpheus and Eurydice, Iphis and Ianthe. The lore is full of love stories with unhappy endings like that, but it’s kind of neat that we have some queer representation at least 😅 (except in the case of Iphis and Ianthe who got their happy ending!!) 

In another ask I also mentioned the relationship between Medea and Jason which I also find super interesting, as well as Theseus/Ariadne/Dionysus/the Minotaur (now THAT would have been an interesting polycule lmao... jk..... unless 👀)

4. General relationship headcanon

Okay so there's no headcanon that springs to mind right now, but there is a slightly niche thought I've been entertaining for a while now. So there's this play by Aeschylus called 'Prometheus Bound' which presents the story of Prometheus and his defiance of Zeus as we know it, HOWEVER Aeschylus introduced a plot twist in that play where Prometheus is the son of Thetis. His inspiration for this was a little detail in the wider legend of Achilles, where the prophecy that is given to Thetis is that the son she will bear will not only be greater than his father, but if the father is Zeus, their offspring will change the world order. Zeus doesn't know this so he sleeps with her, and then Prometheus is born who indeed changes the world. I really love this little spin on the myth of Thetis and the famous prophecy, and it also got me thinking about how Achilles would fit into that, like what would it be like if he learnt about it or even met his stepbro?? That is just fascinating to me.

Thanks once again for this ask!!

[absynthe--minded]

so you’re talking about the Odyssey and you’re talking about David Benioff… thoughts on Troy 2004?

oh boy.

first off, for anyone who doesn’t know, David “Game of Thrones” Benioff wrote Troy, so if you want to know why Achilles is straight, Helen is unreasonably horny, there are no gods, Cassandra isn’t here, Andromache exists to cry and feel sad, everyone talks like they were ripped from Fanfiction.net Lord of the Rings self-inserts circa 2002, and the political machinations mean a lot and nothing at all simultaneously, that’s why

if you want an adaptation of the Iliad that’s good and worth the time, I recommend Troy: Fall of a City on Netflix, because every single character gets to be both compellingly sympathetic and terrible at least once and the gods are here, and Achilles and Patroclus fuck on the beach

if you want an adaptation that centers Helen’s status as a victim and includes details like Theseus kidnapping her and Clytemnestra being her sister, Helen of Troy (2003) is probably your best bet, but this leans so hard into “men are creepy and terrible” that it becomes genuinely hard to watch even though there’s not a lot of explicit sexual violence

honestly watch one of the Italian peplum sword and sandal films before you watch this trashfire, but if we must discuss it, then my thoughts continue

the small details of Bronze Age life pop out and don’t deserve to be as good as they are. they don’t feel quite as impressive now that Troy FoaC did a lot of the same things, but I will say that pouring libations and taking care to observe the religious rites as religious rites is really interesting

that’s the only good thing I’ve got to say about this movie. the rest is ridiculous. why is Hector so pure and noble in a clear-cut “ripped off from Aragorn” way? why are the Greeks evil? why is Achilles so aggro before the mess with Briseis goes down? I know why Paris is basically Legolas but that doesn’t make me happy to see him here, and Sean Bean as Odysseus isn’t enough to save this sinking ship

Peter O’Toole deserved a better-written Priam and it’s disappointing that he’s trying so hard with such sad, pathetic material

Menelaus is presented as a really awful man but doesn’t do anything onscreen really to justify that; if he’s going to be a terrible and abusive husband I need him to behave materially differently than others in the Bronze Age or even in the film itself. he can’t be Informed Abusive he has to be all the way abusive, before she leaves and he goes apeshit.

how is it that a movie so committed to “Achilles is a heterosexual paragon of masculinity for women” still manages to take sides in the Patroclus top/bottom debate

this film deepthroats Trojan sandal so hard you’d think Virgil wrote it on commission

in conclusion watch Literally Anything Else, Including That Movie Where Hercules Goes To Poland And Fights Genghis Khan, before Troy.

[streets-in-paradise]

Hi!

i've read some of your TROY-stories and i love them.

If you're up for it, could you make one for Eudorus, Ajax, Odysseus or Hector?

For Eudorus: (reader is female) Y/n is sister to Achilles but not a warrior. She is the healer in the group Achilles and his merry men. She is a little shy, and has fallen in love with the dark haired blue eyed warrior, but is afraid to tell him. But at a banquet, Achilles takes matters into his own hands.

For Ajax: (Reader is female) Y/n is sister to Helen. And while Helen is beautiful, she is scarred across the face, she is still beautiful, but is insecure because of her scars. Ajax, being scarred himself tries to make her see herself like he sees her.

For Odysseus: (reader is female) Y/n is his wife and most trusted adviser. They're sitting in the hills, she's playing a lyre, while he's looking after the sheep and petting his dog. They're having a good time, but are soon interrupted by the messengers of king Agamenmon(?).

For Hector: (reader is still female) Y/n is the Sister to Helen, but also a soldier. She's also taken to Troy by request of Helen, but has to be knocked out. She is a very reserved woman and doesn't talk to anyone after what Menelaus did to her once (the reason why Helen takes her with them to Troy). When Paris is fighting the king and falls on the ground, losing his sword, a soldier takes over and kills Menelaus. That evening when Paris asks her why she did it, she hits him and runs away crying. Hector finds her sitting in the dark, gets her talking and they end up becoming best friends. When he's fighting Achilles, he doesn't see her coming after him, but as Achilles goes in for the strike with the spear she takes the hit. Now Hector is asking her why, she ends up saying that she loves him and dies in his arms. (Sorry. I just love unhappy love stories)

Hi!!

Awww thank you 💕

Wooow, just, wooow

I have months of new exciting troy fic ideas to work on. Thank you so much for this!!

I loved all, i'm starting to make little escenarios for each idea in my mind. I'm going to release one at a time, because writing the four all at once could burn me out, but i'm so so going to write every single one of these.

If that's ok for you, i'm gonna start with the one i'm feeling more at the moment instead of following the order. The Ajax one, it's so lovely and i'm imagining a full scene in my mind about how it could start that I'm loving.

I don't have a clear order for all the rest, but do loved everything.

The Odysseus one would be sweet couple goals and also hilarious because when he starts to mess with the emisaries of agamemnon, he literally speaks of his wife and she is ríght there lol. The sad tone of the Hector one is good for me too. Who wouldn't give his life for Hector? And i feel that killing the wrong one, just like Hector did with Patroclus, could work as a wake up call for Achilles. Like, you also killed the wrong one and it was someone the enemy cared for. The blood debt is paid. I love the Eudorus one too, yay for wingman Achilles! lol The reader being a relative of Achilles is my favorite Eudorus plot and im also imagining a bit of how that could go. I kinda like to imagine she is too daring for, let's say, Briseis's standards, but very shy in the ones of the masculine world she moves in.

I'm going to have so much fun with all of these!

[classicschronicles]

Hi lovelies,

Today’s entry is about, quite possibly, one of my favourite things about classics. It’s a bit random and the dumbest thing ever and so without further ado allow me to introduce Book 10 of the Iliad!

Book 10 is essentially the ultimate side quest- nothing important happens, it bears no importance on the overall plot, just a bunch of pointless fighting, and it’s kinda gay. Basically, it’s great. But all of this is going to make no sense unless you know the actual plot of Book 10- so let me give you a quick rundown. For those of you who want to read Book 10 (or the Iliad as a whole), it is available free online, but I would highly recommend reading the translation by E.V. Rieu.

Okay so! Book 10 starts after Achilles refuses to rejoin the war in Book 9. All the Greek commanders are fast asleep, aside from Agamemnon and Menelaus (bros gotta be different as always). They seek each other out and Agamemnon goes to find Nestor and Menelaus goes to find Ajax, Idomeneus and any other hero he bumps into on the way. Menelaus, Agamemnon, and their respective groups reconvene and they agree that the best solution is to go on a night raid of the Trojan camp to gather information. Diomedes instantly volunteers to do this and picks Odysseus as his partner in crime. Diomedes and Odysseus arm themselves for battle. Little do they know, Hector is having this exact same conversation with the Trojan army, and he sends a man named Dolon on the Trojan reconnaissance mission. However, Dolon is not the smartest guy and well.. yeah. Diomedes and Odysseus are hiding in a bush together when Dolon passes and they ambush him. This next bit makes me laugh- in the space of ten lines Dolon sells out the entire Trojan army, and the location of the camps, and LITERALLY tells Odysseus and Diomedes the best places to attack and then dies. Really great ten lines. Diomedes and Odysseus decide that this little date hasn’t lasted long enough and so they head towards the Thracian camp, where they kill the king, steal his famous horses and then run away. They then proceed to bathe each other and get drunk and that’s basically the whole book.

If you couldn’t already tell from that rundown, Book 10 is almost entirely useless and does not affect the plot of the Iliad whatsoever, making it the ultimate side mission. However, it has also led many scholars to question the nature of its existence. Homer’s Iliad is so meticulous and precise and so having an entire book that can just be taken out and not affect the story, doesn’t really make sense. And so did Homer write it? The vast majority of scholars agree that Book 10 was not written by Homer. In fact, Book 10 is so out of place that it has its own name- the Doloneia (‘the bit about Dolon’). There is a range of different reasons that scholars believe this about the Doloneia, so without further ado let’s discuss it.

One of the main reasons that Doloneia is so out of place in the Iliad is a simple matter of chronology. The events of Book 10 take place the same night as the events of Book 9. If we assume that Agamemnon’s assembly in Book 9 happened mid-evening, and the embassy to Achilles happened around 8 pm (also worth noting that this assembly lasted a few hours), then the events of Book 9 would’ve finished around 11 pm. A few hours would have then had to have passed for all the Achaean army to be asleep and so when the Greeks decide to raid the Trojans, it couldn’t have been any time before midnight. Essentially, there isn’t enough time between the making of the decision to raid the camp and the following sunrise for the entire book to take place. Hence the description of Book 10 as a ‘clumsy forgery’.

Another reason, and genuinely what I consider the most convincing case, that Book 10 doesn’t fit is that the Doloneia completely defies all the morality and standards of warfare. Throughout the entire Iliad, whilst Homer doesn’t shy away from the horrors of war, he still paints his heroes as honourable men in battle (with the obvious exception being Achilles in Book 22, but in this case we can excuse it as the whole grief of Achilles thing). Within the Iliad, camaraderie is still shown between the two opposing sides (e.g. the break in fighting in Book 3, Book 6 where Diomedes and Glaucus trade armour as a sign of fellowship, and in Book 24 the twelve-day ceasefire for the funeral of Hector). At no point is anyone killed whilst their back is turned, it is dishonourable not only to the victim but to the hero too. However, the author of Book 10 seems to have forgotten this entirely. The Doloneia is an exercise in trickery and deception, with Dolon being ambushed unawares and the Thracian warriors being slaughtered in their sleep. The horses that Odysseus and Diomedes take are not spoils of war, but nothing more than stolen goods. The dishonourable portrayal of Diomedes and Odysseus is strange, especially considering Diomedes artisteia in Books 5 and 6, as well as the portrayal of Odysseus as a great general. If you want to learn more about this theory I recommend reading ‘The Poetics of Ambush’ by Casey Dué Hackney and Mary Ebbott

I did read a theory once, though admittedly I can’t remember where, which suggested Book 10 was Athenian political propaganda. It was written and added in by the Athenians at a later date to paint the Thracians in a negative light. However, I haven’t researched this theory and so I can’t pass judgment on its reliability.

Although it seems strange that someone was able to just add a whole book to the Iliad, we must remember that initially the Iliad was regaled orally. Therefore it is highly possible someone thought it would make a good addition, added it on the spot, and gradually over time it just became integrated and accepted into Iliad lore- sort of like Chinese whispers.

The Doloneia is still a massive controversy today, much like it was in antiquity. Personally, I quite like the idea that someone thought it would be a funny addition, shoved it in, and it caught on. On a side note, I vividly remember sitting in my Friday Classics class, turning to my friend and saying ‘I want my homo honey to take me on secret night raids.’ Only for my teacher to be standing right behind me and then proceeding to make me explain how on earth I managed to find homosexual subtext to Book 10.

Honesty, I could talk about the Doloneia for ages and ages but I’ll stop here! I hope you all enjoyed reading about Book 10 of the Iliad (aka the best side quest in history). Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

~Z

[babyrdie]

You're only so okay with this because Ody isn't your fav so you don't care if they ruin Odypen's relationship by making him a cheater!!!

Anon…I think this is the worst possible argument to use on me. My favs are Helen, Clytemnestra, Medea, Patroclus and Achilles!

Let's recap, okay?

Helen - depending on the version, she isn't kidnapped. She goes with Paris because she WANTS to. That is, she has versions in the myths in which she actually cheats on Menelaus and there is others where it's ambiguous. And I like Menelaus too and, look, he also has a son with another woman (a slave)! Megaphentes is the boy's name.

Clytemnestra - she cheats on Agamemnon with Aegisthus, and plans with her lover to murder her husband…like. She also mistreats her own children and unjustly kills Cassandra. Her having sex with Aegisthus is the most harmless thing she's ever done.

Medea - doesn't cheat on Jason! But I like Medea/Jason and well…Jason cheats on her with Creusa! Plus, if Medea had cheated on Jason, that would have been the most harmless thing she would have ever done.

Patroclus - literally has Iphis. Achilles isn't the only person sexually associated with him. And Iphis is a slave, which, let's say, doesn't help make Patroclus a saint when we look at the situation in modern terms.

Achilles - have you already researched how many people he has shown interest in the various versions? Even in versions where he's married to Deidamia, he still cheats on her with Briseis, for example. And if we are considering Patroclus and not Deidamia… still Briseis, still Diomeda, etc. But just for the record, some of the people he was interested in in the various versions of the myths: Patroclus (depending on the version, he's a lover), Deidamia (has a son with. Sometimes he marries), Hemitheia (he tried to force her, but she escaped thanks to her brother), Briseis (she's his slave), Diomeda (she's his slave), Penthesileia (he only fell in love after having already killed her, so there is no relationship per se…but it's there, he clearly fell in love, regretted defeating her, and wanted a decent funeral for her), Polyxena (she deceived him and caused his death, depending on the version. Depending on the version, she regrets it, so I imagine that whether it is reciprocal or not varies. But if I'm not mistaken, in most cases it wasn't) and Troilus (depends on the version. In versions where there is a sexual interest, let's say it isn't a pleasant development). You've probably noticed, but looking at cases like Hemithea, whether Achilles is a faithful lover or not is the most insignificant of problems.

I think this ask is supposed to be a kind of AHA GOTCHA, but as you can see…I'm really not hiding that my favs aren't always faithful monogamists and they're also not always role models these days. I don't like all versions! For example, I prefer when Troilus' death isn't sexually motivated (because there are versions where it isn't), but I'm not going to pretend that there isn't a version where it is sexually motivated. It's okay if you hate the version of Odysseus marrying Callidice (I'm also don't like it!) and if you hate the ideia of Telegonus existing, but it's childish to deny that it exists (remembering that Telegonus already existed for Hesiod and was not only invented in the lost Telegony). It's not even about you reimagining these characters to be more palatable (in your fics, fanarts, etc). This was never about having favorite versions or having your own headcanons or whatever, this is about actively denying versions of the myths. Do you understand?

Also, don't assume other people are as terrified by the idea of shipps whose relationship isn't faithfully monogamous as you are. Also don't assume we're all so deeply desperate to see our favs as moral exemplars. Not everyone is you! I definitely didn't read Greek mythology because I thought I would find some typically modern heroes there.

[desos-records]

Everything Mythologically Inaccurate About O Brother Where Art Thou (2000)

For the record. I adore this movie with all my soul and I know it’s loosely based on the Odyssey and this will basically be me pointing out references to the epic, but it’s the only film adaption I’ve ever seen of the Odyssey and that’s what I’m currently reading, so here we go.

Nice beginning quote, also the beginning of the Odyssey, although specific wording varies between translations

I have two copies of the Odyssey, one by Stanley Lombardo and the other by Emily Wilson (highly recommend her translation)

This seems to be from a translation done in 1961 by Robert Fitzgerald

The trouble with the Odyssey, plot wise, is that the majority of the actual monster-fighting, ship-wrecking Odyssey part is told entirely through flashback and it’s only about a third of the whole epic. It’s not a linear story and this movie is, so we’re going to have to accept that everything is out of order

The Odyssey actually starts with Telemachus, Odysseus’ son, and his own journey to learn whether his father is still alive or not

He visits Menelaus and Nestor, both characters from the Iliad and friends of Odysseus. They both make long speeches and there’s lots of ceremonial hospitality and I can understand why they skipped it

But in Book 5, we finally get to Odysseus, who is trapped on Calypso’s island

Odysseus is then freed from Calypso’s island by order of Zeus, so starting with a jailbreak makes sense

Fun Fact: the song here, “Po’ Lazarus,” wasn’t recorded for the film. It’s a recording of real Mississippi prisoners in 1959 made by the Ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax

After sailing away from Calypso’s island, Odysseus is immediately shipwrecked by Poseidon and he washes up on the shores of the Phaeacians and there’s a long, long period of time spent getting him food and clothes and some damn sleep, which again—I understand why they simplified it

I cannot stress enough how amazingly in character Everett is as Odysseus, literally the man never stops talking

Delmar and Pete are also fantastically in line with Odysseus’ men, who are mostly unnamed, but are frequently characterized as stupid, insubordinate, and lacking in self-control

They could also be analogous with Odysseus’ two slaves, Eumaeus and Philoetius, who help him kill the suitors and take back his house

*a reminder that slavery in Ancient Greece wasn’t racially based. It was still terrible, but it could technically happen to anyone*

I have to assume the push-cart is the equivalent of Odysseus’ raft after he leaves Calypso’s island and the old blind man is Tiresias, the blind prophet that Odysseus meets later when he travels the Underworld

Also the blind man’s line “I have no name” might be a reference to Odysseus telling the cyclops Polyphemus that “He is no one”

Odysseus is told a number of times by several different people that he’s fated to return home, but only after great suffering so this prophecy is a good summary thematically speaking

Tiresias also tells Odysseus that after he returns home, in order to appease Poseidon, he will have to travel again until he meets people who have never seen the ocean and then make sacrifices. This is Odysseus’ Lost Adventure, so to speak, because we have no record of it

The ‘cow on top of a cotton house’ is sort of in line with that part of Tiresias’ prophecy, in terms of ‘you’ll know it’s over when you see something weird’

Is Wash’s house supposed to be Circe’s island? Bit of a stretch

There’s a pig. I think that makes it Circe’s island

There’s no police force after them or deadline in the Odyssey, but there is Poseidon actively working against them and, more or less, a desire to get home as soon as possible

Are the baptists supposed to be the Lotus Eaters? Because Odysseus’ men do join up with them and he has to basically drag them by their ears back to the ship

I think it’s interesting that they characterize Everett as a non-believer since Odysseus is, actually, a favorite of gods like Athena and is super devout and careful about making proper sacrifices and such

The “you might be square with the Lord, but the state of Mississippi is more hard-nosed” point is funny because that’s honestly how the Odyssey ends. Odysseus has killed all the suitors and fulfilled his fate as decreed by Athena and Zeus, but the families of the murdered young men still chase after him demanding retribution. Athena intervenes at the end

Don’t think Tommy is supposed to be anyone in the Odyssey, maybe the multiple bards who sing stories throughout the epic, but he is based on the legends of Tommy Johnson or Robert Johnson, both black blues musicians who were said to have learned guitar from the Devil

Musicians in the Odyssey are said to be given their gifts by the gods, so that tracks

Okay, is THIS blind guy at the radio station supposed to be Tiresias or are they messing with me

“I am a man of sorrow” is a DIRECT line from the Odyssey (B.19, L.119, Wilson) and I’m SO GLAD they made a song out of it

Wait wait wait governor MENELAUS “pappy” O’Daniel?? Hilarious

“Thank god your mammy died giving birth. If she’da seen ya, she’da died of shame” amazing line. But wait, if you’re King Menelaus, are we talking about HELEN here

*Helen and Menelaus only had one child btw, her name is Hermione, which is the feminine version of Hermes*

There’s just something about the Great Depression Era that tugs on my heart and makes me cry, I love it

Odysseus is firstly a PIRATE and a SACKER OF CITIES which means him stealing treasure and what not is in character

Although the particular treasure he ends up with at the end does not come from The Trojan War, but was gifted to him by the Phaeacians, so

Wait a second. Everett’s name is Ulysses Everett McGill, right? Ulysses is the Latin form of Odysseus

Is all that money in the bag TWO dollar bills?? Fucking fantastic

George “Baby Face” Nelson is also a real person, famous gangster and bank robber. Not sure he lines up with anybody in the Odyssey, but my god did they do an excellent job casting. He killed more FBI agents than any person in history. He also was not executed by electric chair, but was shot to death by the FBI

Ohhh the “not the livestock” thing is a reference to Odysseus’ men eating the Sun Cows when they were specifically told not to and all of them dying as consequence

Hey they’re sitting on old busted Greek columns, that’s cool

HOMER stokes. Nice

I KNEW those little boys carrying ice had to be a reference to something. Eudora Welty’s photograph for WPA of two boys carrying ice

Odysseus IS an excellent storyteller

Alright, alright. A note about Sirens. They are not sexy ladies sitting up on rocks. The Odyssey doesn’t even give a physical description, just that they’re monsters who sing at passing sailors, promising their greatest desire. In Odysseus’ case, that is KNOWLEDGE, specifically about his family and friends

Although, funnily enough, Odysseus does come across young girls doing their laundry in a river after shipwrecking. And he is naked at the time. But there is NO seduction happening. He just politely asks if maybe he can borrow some clothes and also could someone point him in the direction of the nearest town, please and thank you

Obsessed with the idea that you have to get Odysseus black out drunk in order to shut him up

Okay, maybe those ladies were supposed to be Circe too—she turns people into pigs (or frogs, in this case) AND sleeps with Odysseus

I spy a Cyclops. Polyphemus, the bible salesman

Which is funny, btw, because Odysseus basically calls Polyphemus godless for breaking hospitality rules and eating several of his men, which does happen here in a way

There is crying in damn near every single book of the Odyssey and it’s a shame there’s so little of it here

*reference to the Carter family, legends of American Folk music*

Odysseus just has a son, Telemachus, but I think the little girls are supposed to be the Graces? The Muses? idk trios of women are really common

I love this because at first Telemachus doesn’t recognize his father either (partly because he’s never actually met him and partly because Athena’s put him in disguise)

Neither does Penelope until Odysseus proves himself by a) winning the archery contest and b) knowing the secret of their marriage bed 

“Not since you got hit by that train!” perfect

“Odysseus died in the war!” Penelope says. *Odysseus, sitting right in front of his family, looking at Athena like she’s a camera on the Office*

Penelope has, like, thirty suitors who showed up to the house one day and just refused to leave until she picked one of them to marry and she can’t get them to leave until Odysseus returns and kills them all

Oh wait, there’s seven little girls. Right, probably the Muses then. Especially since they sing. That’s cute, I love that

If anyone is as big a liar as Odysseus, it’s definitely Penelope. That’s why he loves her. Totally in character

Penny. Penelope. Close enough.

I think it’s hilarious that Everett can’t fight. Especially since Odysseus just. murders all the suitors without much fuss since he’s so great at everything all the time

“Just a drifter, I guess” she says about Everett, which is great because Odysseus shows up disguised as a beggar at first and it’s unclear if Penelope genuinely can’t recognize him or if she’s playing along with his scheme to get the suitors out of the house

“Don’t trust women” is a BIG thing in the Odyssey, unfortunately, which is a little hypocritical of it since it’s main character is a lying, scheming, murdering, pirate and war criminal who cheats on his wife repeatedly

I don’t CARE if Hermes told you to, Odysseus, it’s still a double standard

The movie theater scene reminds me of the bit in the Odyssey where they travel to the Underworld and talk to some of Odysseus’ friends. Agamemnon tells him not to go home lest he be betrayed by his wife and murdered like he was

THERE’S the crying

I… I can’t explain the Klan scene except for, well, Polyphemus gets blinded by a stick that’s on fire, so. There’s that. Maybe they’re Polyphemus’ sheep? The suitors trying to kill Telemachus?? idk

The whole world is not against Odysseus, he’s just a liar who’s too smart for his own good and occasionally his selfishness makes him a little stupid, that’s all

More disguises! I love it

More Penelope not recognizing Odysseus until he proves himself! Excellent!

See, at least Everett doesn’t have to kill a room full of people in order to solve his problems

Oh oh oh, wait, is them having to go get the ring like Odysseus’ Lost Adventure to the people who’ve never seen the sea in order to lift Poseidon’s curse?? Or is it like Odysseus proving he knows that his and Penelope’s marriage bed was made out of a living tree and can’t be moved without cutting it??

See? Don’t go after livestock that ain’t yours

I guess this makes Poseidon the Devil here

Orrr this is when the families of the dead suitors try and kill Odysseus?

The flood at the end is definitely Athena’s deus ex machina though

Couldn’t tell an Odyssey story without a little bit a water, could you?

Ending with the little Muse girls singing with the blind prophet?? Amazing, I love it

Hercules (1997)

Clash of the Titans (2010)

[godsofhumanity]

rank the men from the iliad (+ explanations)

1. Hector 

WHAT do i even need to say????? Hector is literally brilliant!!! He’s kind, he’s smart, he’s brave, he’s honourable, he’s loyal, he’s a fighter. Even Zeus thought he was so good that he deserved to be saved and only didn’t save him from Achilles because Athena begged him not to. I also really love Hector because even though he’s so awesome, he’s not arrogant or pretentious like Achilles, he’s just so grounded and nice.

2. Odysseus

Remember when Odysseus tried to avoid participating in the war by pretending to be insane? AGHHHHH ODYSSEUS, KING!! That really indicates what kind of a man Odysseus was- kind, and strong, and preferring peace to violence. This guy also stopped Achilles from being stupid and forcing his soldiers to keep fighting even though they were exhausted. Also.. Trojan horse epic prank.. great work, Odysseus.

3. Priam

Oh, Priam! The scene where Priam goes to Achilles himself and begs him to give Hector’s body back is what does it for me. Priam, a king, has to cross enemy lines and bow down before his enemy, the man who murdered his son, and beg him to have the smallest bit of sympathy and give back the body so that they can give Hector the proper burial rites so that he can pass on to the land of the dead. Can you imagine how humiliating that must have been? What strength of mind this old man must have had to go to Achilles, a spoiled brat, and ask for mercy! Priam is just... words can’t describe. I have so much respect for him. He really put family first, always.

4. Polydamas

Hector’s good friend and a Trojan commander. He gives Hector some really good battle advice but my man Hector never listens 😭😭😭 Props to Polydamas for trying though xx

5. Diomedes

Honourable, valiant and not pretenious despite being the ONLY mortal warrior to actually wound the immortal gods (Ares)!!! I LOVE this dude!! He’s smart, he’s brave, he’s cunning, he’s resourceful. Fantastic work, Diomedes!

6. Nestor

i like him because he’s a little bit funny, but also extremely wise and sensible. everyone appreciates him and listens to his advice when he gives it.

7. Aeneas

Aphrodite, Apollo AND Poseidon loved this dude and saved his life on separate occasions, so you know he’s a good one!!

8. Ajax the Greater

remember when Hector and Ajax had a big fight, and then they just stopped and gave each other gifts???? KINGS! Ajax is just very honourable, and he’s an excellent fighter. i like him! sad ending though :///

9. Patroclus

Did you know that Patroclus was actually older than Achilles, despite most modern adaptions portraying him as younger? Anyways, i don’t hate Patroclus. He had the spirit- he was brave and courageous, albeit a little brash. 

10. Deiphobus

i feel like we always forget that Deiphobus married Helen after Paris died. the fact that Athena chooses to impersonate Deiphobus during Achilles’ fight with Hector, indicates that Deiphobus was trusted and beloved by Hector, which further suggests that they had like-minded personalities. still, he’s further down this list because of the myth where he carries Helen off and marries her- Deiphobus, my dude, did you not just watch an entire war unfold because Paris did the exact same thing? Idiots! The lot of them!

11. Menelaus

Menelaus isn’t exactly a strong fighter, but i actually kinda like him! As a king, i think that if Menelaus had simply just sat back down and been like “okay, my wife got kidnapped, let me just leave it be because a war is too much”, that would have made him look really weak. He 100% was in the right for waging war, because Paris was WRONG and never should have done what he did. I genuinely do think that Menelaus did love Helen, though I’m undecided about whether Helen reciprocated. Either way, Menelaus is okay in my books- he just did what he had to.

12. Achilles

ugh. i used to really like Achilles, but the more of the Iliad i read, the more i disliked him. He’s so arrogant and pretentious and hot-headed. He thinks he’s a god. obviously, i hate what he does to Hector, and i don’t think he was all that honourable. He was just a spoiled brat.

13. Paris

Troy’s resident dumbass. for real, Paris is just so dumb.. i don’t like him! he makes so many bad decisions, and everyone else has to pay for them. He knew that Helen was off limits- being married, and already being a mother with a child who needed her, so what did brave Paris do? Kidnap Helen! AGHHH YOU IDIOT! YOU FOOL! 

14. Agamemnon

i hate this guy. i feel bad for him because he had to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the war.. but other than that,, he’s just so angry and scary and brutal,, and i don’t like him. also, his own wife killed him, so what does that say about the man?

**these are just my opinions,, feel free to disagree!!

[dootznbootz]

I saw something that said that if Odysseus had to choose between himself VS. Penelope and Telemachus he'd always choose himself. How he'd be miserable and he would try to weasel his way out of it but if it really was no other option he'd still do it and...

Odysseus is an incredibly selfish man, that's not wrong. And he definitely has his cruel streak. But his whole thing is his unconditional devotion and loyalty to his family while basically being a rat bastard to everyone else. He literally puts himself in danger for them multiple times, even just in their NAME multiple times.

But this is the same man who pretended to be INSANE for at least a MONTH so he wouldn't have to leave them. I guess you could say it's because he's a coward or because of the prophecy but if he didn't care he wouldn't have saved his son. But even with all that, to have a mad king? That leaves your kingdom vulnerable. There could've been a fucking usurping. Ithaca doesn't have much fertile land and yet he destroys some of it. Even then in some versions, it's him literally running to scoop up his baby, "hearing thundering hooves past his head". Putting himself in danger in multiple ways as SAVING HIS SON MEANT HE WAS GOING TO WAR. WAR ISN'T SOMETHING YOU CAN GUARANTEE THAT YOU'LL COME BACK FROM.

EVEN IN THEIR NAMES, HE PUTS HIMSELF IN DANGER FOR THEM. Calypso asks what is so lovely about his wife that makes him not want her, a beautiful goddess. Said goddess has been abusing him for years yet he still says that he will ALWAYS go back to them putting himself at risk just DEFENDING Penelope and he's literally dragged back to her grotto immediately after. He even tells her the only way he would stop trying to get to them is if he were dead.

He is deeply hurt by her rejection but even then HE ASKS FOR A SEPARATE BED. He calls her cruel and stubborn and he's tearing up but he never threatens her despite her rejection could literally end bad for him. Paris for example, after Helen rips into him about how Menelaus was the better man and warrior who didn't back down, he basically tells her "Hey! You should be happy your husband's alive! ...Get in the bed."

Like??? he puts them first often, even if it means his own discomfort!!!

I don't think he would let Penelope or Telemachus suffer so he would be free. That feels like the fucking Tele-GONE-y to me. You can keep his "rat bastardness" there because if he was for example, being dragged to Hades or something, he'd give Penelope a look and they'd probably have a plan for him to get out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ He's sometimes said to be the son of Sisyphus. Who's to say he wouldn't do that as well? And if it was him "doomed to eternal damnation". He'd be trying the whole time to get back to them. (that'd...honestly be a perfect punishment for him.)

Idk, They're selfish about practically everything but each other

[menelaiad]

What do you think of the Antilochus-Menelaus friendship ? I so wish she was explored more, middle aged and his widdle bby friend 🥺

was it not me that didn't shut up about this dynamic like ..... almost 2 years ago??? i think it was.

no, but for real. when you read the iliad this dynamic can certainly fly under your radar. menelaus as a whole can get fucking lost in that book lmfao. but if you read it with hyper-menelaus-vision like i do everything in my life - it's shocking how prevelant that dynamic actually is.

menelaus doesn't interact with a lot of people in the iliad. there's aga, ajax, achilles (well, achilles calls him a dogface and menelaus doesnt really respond but yknow). now, him talking to aga makes sense. ajax is addressed when menelaus needs help on the battlefield (to save odysseus and to defend patroclus) he's the muscle menelaus needs in those moments.

but he talks to and works/fights with antilochus. the most. (outside of aga but their dynamic is ofc gonna be different) antilochus isn't. a big deal. really. he's not one of the leaders. one of the OG big guys. but he's with menelaus in maybe like 30 - 50% of his scenes in the iliad? and for a guy that doesn't appear in the iliad a lot to begin with. that's a lot.

with a oral poem like the iliad there will be a lot of repetition for events, even if the characters change. but i'm sure there's an event that's repeated twice - menelaus calling for ajax's help and then summoning antilochus. again. the ajax thing is explainable - he's a main player. he's also beefy as shit. he can help menelaus YET menelaus summons antilochus as well. why him? using ajax twice for defence makes sense. but summoning antilochus both times (instead of changing to another sidecharacter greek) is purposeful. he CHOOSES him. menelaus clearly forms this attachment to antilochus after book 5 when the lad comes to his rescue.

it's also sweet how in the book 5 moment, there is a mirror between hera's concern for menelaus and antilochus'. hera having this maternal angle to her as well implies that this concern is FIERCE. it's protective. and antilochus feels the same.

i also think it's sweet that antilochus is like menelaus' lil right hand man UNTIL patroclus dies. and then menelaus almost. gives antilochus back to achilles. antilochus and menelaus fight side by side until patroclus dies and then antilochus becomes achilles' right hand man. like. menelaus gives him back. knows how good of a companion this boy is. sees achilles' grief and like .... offers antilochus as a balm to help. patroclus' death is menelaus' fault. and menelaus certainly sees it that way. and to help achilles combat this newfound lonliness he offers up .... his only friend in the whole iliad.

LIKE in the funeral games. menelaus is mad that antilochus has broken his trust and their friendship. it was never really about the prize for menelaus (he fucking gives it to antilochus anyway???? like????) he's so upset because antilochus 'played dirty' and breached his trust. THAT'S why menelaus kicks off. and yet he doesn't stay mad for long. he almost cant??? he and antilochus have been through a lot in the short span of time that the iliad takes place. and i've said it before. menelaus is not a proud man, compared to most in greek myth. he will back down. he will admit defeat. and he does it here too. ofc he does?? this is his friend!!! but not before he gets emotional and upset about being betrayed because menelaus just FEELS so much. he is such an emotional and attached character.

EVEN IF IT'S NOT THAT menelaus' anger could be from CONCERN. antilochus has stayed alive for so long and boy is now gonna die cause he cant drive?! menelaus WILL NOT have that. it could be panic or fear. either way. i dont think his outburst comes from a place of malice or 'sore loser' at all.

and like do you gotta make me say it???? antilochus forces menelaus to face his guilt. he LITERALLY SAYS:

NO OTHER ACHAEAN COULD HAVE BROUGHT ME ROUND SO SOON. YOU HAVE SUFFERED MUCH AND LABORED LONG ... ALL FOR MY SAKE.

menelaus yields, yes because antilochus is his friend but antilochus is also SO FREAKIN YOUNG. he's probably spent half of his life (or damn close to it) at troy. for menelaus. and menelaus is not blind to that. antilochus embodies all the young men that came to troy for him that have died for him or at the very least have fought and suffered. menelaus' love and care for antilochus is almost symbolic of his love and care for all these lads who came to troy. antilochus represents the army that menelaus carries on his back and cares about so much. and i think the paternal angle to their relationship almost highlights that. menelaus is compared to a mother directly and his relationship with antilochus emphasises this. and that's why their dynamic so so sweet and important to me. their story begins with antilochus coming to his aid and ends with menelaus thanking him for all he's done. menelaus is not blind to the help of this boy or to the army as a whole.

to conclude:

[shadowsong26x]

Because My Roommate And I Think We’re Hilarious*

*because it’s True

From a conversation we had like three years ago, I give you: the Iliad/Oddyssey as a college Battle of the Bands.

Roommate - In fact I really wanna write a modern-day AU where Helen will only date the best rocker so it's a giant battle of the bands and Achilles is closeted until he's really spectacularly not

Me - yesssss that is amazing.

Roommate - and Odyessus is MARRIED and doesn't want to BE here fuck you very MUCH, Diomedes.

Me - "look, dude, you're the best drummer we've got we NEED you here. come on, be a wingman."

Roommate - "DUDE WE HAVE A TWO-MONTH-OLD. MY WIFE WILL KILL ME. I WILL KILL ME."

Me - "bro, come ooooooooooon i'll make it up to you."

Roommate - "THERE IS NO MAKE IT UP TO ME" "THERE IS ONLY EXTREMELY JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE" "BRB TEXTING MY WIFE 'SORRY, SWEETHEART, DIOMEDES FUCKING KIDNAPPED ME.'"

Me - XD

Roommate - and then he sits in traffic all night trying to get the fuck home

Me - gets into a fender bender on a deserted back street with a girl who insists they have to do the police accident report thing and swears she called the cops and of course his phone died and they're there for like three hours and he's pretty sure she did not, in fact, call the cops.

Roommate - then his car won't start so he flags down a cab except it's full of fratboys smoking weed and he's pretty sure they're hotboxing him

Me - then they get pulled over and he spends a few hours in the drunk tank trying to convince the lady cop who arrested them that he was not involved, really, he was just hitchhiking.

Roommate - omg yes ends up getting bailed out by a guy and his teenager who overhear him talking about his infant and begging to go home

Me - yes i love it

Roommate - then the guy and his teenage daughter give him a ride home except the assholes from down the street who keep wolf-whistling at his wife are like, barricading the damn street so he has to beat them up before he can finally. get. home.

Me - he is never speaking to diomedes again.

Roommate - once he tells the saga to Penelope he adds "and if I murder Diomedes will you help me get rid of the body"

Me - "babe, you'll only murder him if i don't get there first."

Roommate - Can't decide if Diomedes is like "BRO :(" or "...yeah actually that's fair"

Me - ...yeah, tough call.

Roommate - Achilles suddenly has MORE fangirls now that he's come out, which is not what his mom/manager expected

Me - nope. not at all.

Roommate - Patroclus is a little worried that HE suddenly has fangirls, he is literally not involved in this beyond tagging along after Achilles

Me - hector is just facepalming at this whole thing and wondering why the hell they decided to host the damn thing, now the house is trashed.

Roommate - Their newest pledge was horny on main for Helen, that's why

Me - ...are we going sweet paris or asshole paris? i prefer sweet paris mostly because it's nicer to helen, but

Roommate - Sweet, but uh God love him not bright

Me - so he loses and helen's like "...but i like him. i don't like the asshole president of the other frat's asshole brother."

Roommate - oooh wait better idea

Me - oh?

Roommate - "I don't like the asshole president of the other frat's asshole brother, and sweetie, you're very nice, but you're also VERY dumb. Hector. Your sister. Introduce me."

Me - oooooh nice! WAIT I HAVE ANOTHER OPTION genderbend paris. her sorority sister egged her on into crossdressing and entering the battle

Roommate - OMG EVEN BETTER PERFECT PERFECT So Helen and Paris run off together, Agamemnon and Menelaus get to sulk, Odysseus gets home... eventually, Diomedes gets a lot of nasty emails, and Achilles and Patroclus have a lot of sex and wake up to find out that shippers are a thing.

Me - and hector is left to clean up the mess after these assholes trashed my house not cool guys.

Roommate - 'cause Achilles is like, legit, he's an actual rock star singer, he's just been closeted because his mom made him and now he's like "...I get to smooch my perfect boyfriend on stage and NOT ONLY do they think it's great, they draw cute pictures of my perfect boyfriend? FUCKING SOLD."

Me - yes! perfect i love it

Roommate - Briseis is Patroclus's bestie who Agamemnon kept hitting on at the party and finally she was like 'ugh Achilles beat him up for me' and Achilles is like "BETTER PLAN HOW ABOUT I JUST DON'T SING YOU DICK"

Me - and agamamnon is like "but dude YOU'RE OUR HEADLINER."

Roommate - and Patroclus is like "great now he's holding grudges for you too" and Briseis is like "I am perfectly capable of holding this grudge on my own"

Me - "helen won't date my brother if you don't sing!"

Roommate - "FUCK YOU SHOULDA THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE YOU HIT ON MY PERFECT BOYFRIEND'S BEST FRIEND"

Me - XD

Roommate - "FINE WE'LL MAKE PATROCLUS SING" and Patroclus gets stage fright and Achilles like bounds up and plants one on him and then they just vanish

Me - yesssssssss i love it

Roommate - and Briseis is like "hit on me again and you will not like the consequences"

[prince-of-calydon]

A snippet that takes place after one of the chapters representing Book 11. Here Diomedes is the one hurt, not Eurypylus, only because Eurypylus doesn’t have a role in the heroverse (at least, not in this draft; if I decide to add him later, oh well).

Specifically, this is the scene where Patroclus receives a gift from the team, as thanks for saving Diomedes’ life. Mention of Agamemnon’s apology is made, but Achilles will have none of it. (Also, Peleus content because there’s very little of him in the story, and I like the dorky-”used to be cool”-dad and cool-son relationship they have here.)

Peleus stared down at the cellophane-wrapped gift basket sitting on the table beside a light yellow envelope with “Patroclus” written in thick, neat letters across its front. He took another sip of his coffee from a mug that Achilles had decorated for him in fourth grade, with small brown dots peppered across a white border around the bottom (which Peleus affectionately referred to as “ants”, from an initial misinterpretation). A bottle of red wine and a colourful arrangement of fake flowers served as the centrepiece of the basket, with cured meats, some crackers, and a small bottle of olive oil neatly clustered around the rest. 

“Hey, Patroclus?” he called. Upstairs, he heard footsteps, the opening and closing of a door, and in no time at all, gentle Patroclus rounded the corner from the hallway, the sleeves of his dark green sweater pushed up to his elbows. 

“What is it?” 

“You’ve got mail.” Peleus handed him the envelope. 

“Oh. Thank you.” 

“Mm-hmm.” With a hum of acknowledgement, Peleus finished the rest of his coffee and headed over to the sink, flipping the faucet on and running his mug underneath. As he pulled out a chair to sit down, Patroclus recognized the handwriting on the front of the envelope as Agamemnon’s. He flipped it over and fiddled with the seal flap, apprehensive. 

“Woah, what’s this?” came Achilles’ voice from behind him--he hadn’t heard the footsteps over Peleus’ dishwashing--as he turned to look. Achilles moved closer to him, leaning on the back of the chair as he peered at the basket. 

“I dunno. Came in the mail, or something,” Patroclus murmured, still nervous about the letter’s contents. 

“Can we open it?” He hadn’t expected Achilles to be more excited than he was at what seemed to be a personalized gift basket. Then again, he told himself, Achilles hadn’t seen the handwriting on the envelope. He forced a little smile and a nod. 

“Sure, why not?” With a stray pen lying on the table, he broke the seal and slid the card out. “You can unpack the basket while I read this.” A few orange and pink chrysanthemums sat beneath swooping golden letters that read “Thank You” at the top of the card. As Achilles undid the twist tie at the top, crackling and crinkling the cellophane, Patroclus opened the card to find two small sheets of paper taped within, along with the generic message already printed on the card. Signatures from the entire team cluttered the bottom of the card, most with a small “thank you” (or, next to Menelaus’, “you’re the best!”) beside them. 

Achilles examined the crackers and meat as Patroclus flipped the first small insert over to find a handwritten letter from Odysseus, personally thanking Patroclus for saving Diomedes’ life. Claiming he and Diomedes (one more literally than the other) owed him their lives, he closed the letter claiming he had no more words to describe his gratitude, his signature seated below it, light and airy. Meanwhile, continuing his inspection of the basket’s contents, Achilles picked up the bottle of olive oil, holding it up to the light to reveal the golden-green behind the glass. 

“Garlic and chili? This looks expensive.” Patroclus flipped to the next mini-letter, his expression darkening, then softening, a minute change that Achilles managed to catch. “What’s the card say?” 

“It’s from the team.” His eyes scanned more of Agamemnon’s writing in the mini-letter. “As a thank-you gift or something for saving Diomedes’ life.”

“Oh, that’s good to hear,” Achilles nodded, setting the olive oil down and turning his attention to the bottle of wine. 

“He’s doing better now. And…” He took a deep breath. “Agamemnon is apologising.” His eyes darted to Achilles’ face, waiting for a reaction; he found none. Even Peleus froze momentarily at the mention of the leader’s name, then quickly returned to washing the silverware. 

“Oh.” His response was impartial and uninterested. 

“Anyway, I’m going out to meet Briseis tomorrow for lunch,” Patroclus quickly recovered, changing the subject. Achilles brightened up once more. 

“Oh? Where are you guys going?”

“We were gonna try that new sushi restaurant that opened downtown,” Patroclus said, running his thumb over the thin paper on which Agamemnon’s words were written. “She wanted to try it, and I don’t mind.” Achilles set the bottle of wine down and leaned his head on Patroclus’ shoulder. 

“Can you bring back something for me?” he asked, puppy-eyes wide. Patroclus chuckled and lightheartedly rolled his eyes.

“Sure. I’ll send you the menu later. Text me what you want.”

“Thank you,” Achilles replied in a singsong voice, leaning in to steal a kiss. “Love you.” 

“Love you too.” He was tired of looking at the card; setting it aside, he turned his attention to the enclosed bag of crackers. “I mean, if we really wanted, we could eat this before dinner or something.” He inspected the bottle of wine that Achilles had been looking at earlier. “I think your dad might like this.” Peleus leaned over at the mention of his name. 

“Hm?”

“The team bought some wine, but you might like it more than us.” 

“Oh, alright. Leave it on the table, then.” He smiled at his son, and Patroclus noted the similarities to Achilles’ grin. “I’ll split the bottle with your mother.” He rinsed a cup with warm water and placed it in the dishrack. 

Patroclus felt Achilles’ hands on his shoulders, which slowly slid down to loosely embrace him from behind as Achilles rested his head on Patroclus’ shoulder. Patroclus smelled the light, woodsy fragrance of the oil Achilles liked to put in his hair and leaned back, his temple to Achilles’ forehead. His response to Agamemnon could wait; Achilles would not.

[staghunters]

Thoughts on Stephen Fry’s Troy

Sorta review/critique. A thing to keep in mind is that I‘ve not read a direct translation of the Iliad so this really is my first experience of the epic besides general knowledge of it that is present in pop culture and such.

It’s a long one so I’ll put a break here

First off, there’s a little preface, map, olympian family tree, and timeline of the entirety of ancient history. Very nice to include, though I used these very little in my reading. Nontheless they can be useful for people who are very new to mythology and the layout of the ancient world.

I think I read the epilouge section titled myth and reality after the preface. Not sure why they put it in the back, perhaps for spoilers, but it functions good as a disclaimer before stepping into the main story. There is also a list of actors after this, which are again useful but not something I used a lot personally. 

Now for the main story! I’ll not be going over everything, just the things that stood out for me. Again disclaimer that this is the first time I read a version of the fall of Troy, so my impressions may deviate from ‘canon’ but be sure to correct me/add where you like.

I did not know Helena was a daughter of Zeus or that she had any brothers oof. (Arguably the brothers leave the story very early so I don’t think it’s that bad of me).

I like the idea of a lottery to determine who will marry Helena, but also think that Menelaus is an obvious choice. Given that they have lived together and know each other for a long time, they have a good foundation to build a relationship on.

Agamemnon comes across as an honourable man, but does not shy away from showing his emotions. Iphigeneia in Aulis is a touching section where he stalls the sacrifice of his daughter as long as possible and comes with counterarguments to make it not happen. Fry picks the version where Iphigeneia is spared by Artemis, but does not tell where she is taken which is a bit of a shame.

Odysseus is a smart bastard. I like that.

Paris goes from a kind boy to a selfish man, something that is adressed by characters in the story. I would not go as far as to say that he is Bad, but his morals are very grey.

His siblings and Hebe and Priamos are on the contrary quite reasonable the entirety of the story. They try to make things the best for Helena given the circumstances, and stand up to Paris when needed.

Hector is amazing wow.

I think Kassandra is the most present after him, but I’m not sure if I liked the way Fry chose to depict the whole seeing-the-future-but-nobody-listens because it is done quite literally. At key moments Kassandra is there to cry out her observations but is just not adressed by the others around her. It stands in contrast with Laokoon, who is acknowledged but also ignored. I feel like Fry could’ve brought some more creativity in this case. In general Kassandra feels like the odd one out of the Trojan siblings, not really seeming to be one of them.

Kind of continueing on Kassandra, Helenus is briefly mentioned at times and his foretelling of things is even more minimal. It would’ve been an easy step to make some sort of connection between him and Kassandra, but again I’m not sure if that is in the original text.

Achilles and Patroclus are very well done in my opinion. Achilles has his moments of anger and honour, and Patroclus is not a softboy standing on the sidelines. I always thought Patroclus took Achilles’ armour in secret but here he discusses it with Achilles and he agrees to let him borrow it. When Patroclus dies, there is a section of how fierce the battle for his body is, signaling how all the Greeks cared for him.  

Briseis also seems like an addition to Patroclus and Achilles, if that is the correct phrasing. The dynamics they have can make you interpret them as either Pat and Achilles acting like big brothers of Briseis, or a “X has two hands” kind of thing (where they all hold hands). 

Diomedes and Odysseus act like colleagues mostly, frequently going on missions together to get someone or infiltrate Trojan outposts. I thought it odd that when they steal the Palladion, Odysseus suddenly has the desire to kill Dio as to take the honor for himself. It is brushed of by Odysseus as being an influence of the Palladion, but seems more ambiguous in Fry’s wording. Regardless, seemed out of character regarding the bond the two have.

Helena has regrets later of going with Paris. Fry leaves the options open wether she acted under the influence of Aphrodite or if it was her own decision. Aphrodite does pop up at times to force something upon Helena. While not a sympathetic characterisation of the godess, it does serve as an example that the gods generally do not care much for the wellbeing of those involved in their “games”. This is underlined by Fry in regards to Thetis by saying that the gods generally do not feel much empathy for mortals and that Thetis is very much an exception in the case of Achilles.

Thetis is a bit of an overbearing mom in this, but it does not feel wrong per se.

The other gods come on the stage at some moments in the first half. After that Fry draws a line with Zeus further prohibiting them from interfering with the war.

The Trojan Horse has some detail and is not just ships in the vague shape of a horse a la Troy 2004. It’s got colours, expressions,  a very funky horse.

The siege from within is Brutal. Neoptolemos is definitely not his father and much more aggresive. Fry points out moments where some good was done but emphasizes that the party we have been with and somewhat rooting for the past pages is not free of commiting atrocities. Kassandra predicts her own death and Agamemnon’s to him. Fry did make him say that Klytaimnestra would probably understand/be happy for bringing back Kassandra as a slave. All in all adding to the fact that he does not hate his wife like some other adaptations/people like to suggest, but is instead oblivious or just naive for the fact that the sacrifice of Iphigenia harmed their relationship.

The main story ends with the gods being Disgusted by all of it. I’m assuming Fry will save a bit of the return of the Greeks for a book on the Odyssey which is fine I guess but leaves this one a bit open ended. 

Would recommend this if you’ve never read an Iliad story before and want something that provides you with extended information as well as fun facts about the events. It’s a very accesible read despite some of its flaws.

[timcurlyshepard]

Can you do one of who everyone would be as Greek heroes?

(not all of these are necessarily Greek heroes in the sense that they would have been considered so by antiquity standards, but they are prominent mortal[ish] Greek figures)

(Also I included Cherry this time)

Darry

Hercules/Heracles. The Superman of Ancient Greece if you will. Hercules has a life plagued by tragedy (dying multiple times, making his way through the underworld, being driven mad and forced to kill his own wife and children). His life is not as happy story as the Disney movie made it out to be. This feels like a version of Darry to me because he seems to have all the capabilities of having a good life, intelligence, strength, support, but it inevitably goes terribly wrong and his life turns out like nothing you would have expected through a series of unfortunate events.

Ponyboy

Cassandra. An Oracle in Ancient Greece (having the ability to see the future) but cursed by Apollo so that no one would ever believe her. She is often seen as the archetype of someone being dismissed and ignored by others when they are right and know best. She warned the Trojans of the attack coming from the Trojan Horse but went ignored. I think that Pony often feels dismissing and ignored because of his youth and place in his family and the gang. He would relate very easily to the story of Cassandra (which has a very tragic ending).

Soda

Helen. Helen is famously the cause of the Trojan war. She falls in love with Paris and ditches her husband, Menelaus, to run off with him. She’s a young girl who’s willing to sacrifice literally everything for love. This reads like Soda to me, quick to fall completely in love and damning the consequences.

Steve

Odysseus. Clever, cunning, and brash. Odysseus is the one who famously came up with the ploy of the Trojan Horse, which very much feels like a Steve idea to me. He’s a quite a bit hypocritical at times (expecting Penelope to remain faithful while he’s off getting hot and heavy with every woman he meets) which feels like it could also be a weakness of Steve’s (not the cheating, the hypocritical attitude at times).

Dallas

Achilles. Achilles is strong and bold, but he has weaknesses, and not just in his heal. One of the most memorable scenes of Achilles during the Iliad is a display of his infamous temper; dragging the dead body of Hector, who had slain his beloved Patroclus, through the streetsof Troy. This figure radiates Dallas for me because he is known for his fighting prowess, but he is also rash and quick to anger, especially when someone he loves is at stake.

Johnny

Patroclus. The other half of Dallas’ Achilles. Patroclus dies dressed as Achilles, attempting to defend his men against the Trojan army. He is self sacrificing and is the catalyst to the death of Achilles and Hector in the Iliad. I mean come on, this is Johnny. Hinton might have just read the Iliad and gone ‘yeah we’re just gonna use that guy and give him a new name’.

Two Bit

Pandora. The first woman ever created. And considered to be downfall of mankind (think Eve in Christianity). Pandora famously opened a box that she was not supposed to because she had been cursed with an uncontrollable curiosity. Said box released all the horrors of the world (war, hunger, the pain of childbirth, death, etc etc). She was doomed though, because the box was a trap, meant to entice her. For me, Two Bit also has this sense of curiosity and an inability to control his actions at times. He doesn’t always think before he acts, much like Pandora.

Tim

Medea. Medea is the real hero in the tale of Jason and the Argonaughts. She is the one who has magical abilities and intelligence and she captures the Golden Fleece for them. But she doesn’t get the credit she deserves, and after she married Jason he abandons her for another woman. She then has him killed. She is one of the few women in Ancient Greece that was seen as more powerful than a man, and in the end she gets away with the murders she commits. I think that this intelligence and violent revenge when wronged is like Tim. She’s cunning and is the leader of a group of hard headed guys, which Tim is as well.

Curly

Orpheus. Orpheus was a musician and favored by the god Hades. So, when his wife Eurydice dies he goes to Hades to beg for her back, and the god agrees on one condition: he may lead her out of the underworld, but while doing so he may not look back at her. But, of course, he is too tempted to see his beloved wife and turns back, causing her to vanish and return to the underworld. I think that this sort of foolish breaking of rules and suffering unwelcome consequences is a Curly move. It also is definitely like him to try and get around a clear instruction but fail in the process. He doesn’t always think things through and it will bite him in the ass later.

Angela

Clytemnestra. Clytemnestra is actually my favorite figure in Greek mythology. Here’s the short version: her husband is Agememnon (leader of the Greek army in the Trojan war) sacrifices her beloved daughter to the gods before leaving for battle (it was considered good luck to do so). She’s pissed, obviously, and murders him in a clever plot upon his return like 20 years later. I decided to make Angela her because she is vengeful, but for a good cause. She loves her child dearly and would do anything to avenge her, and in part to avenge herself. Angela has always read as the vengeful type to me (I mean just consider what she had her brothers do to Bryon) and I think she would be the type to hold anger for 20 years, especially over the killing of a family member.

Cherry

Alcestis. The rundown: Alcestis dies in place of her husband so that he may have immortality, it was supposed to be a gift to him by the God Apollo but turns out to be a curse because he loses his beloved wife. The thing that’s notable about this story is that it’s called the Alcestis and is centered around her, but she doesn’t have a single line in it. She is essentially the epitome of how men saw women in Ancient Greece (and today), sacrificial lambs that are meant to fuel their pain in stories but not actually have their own agency. Cherry reminds me of what I think Alcestis would have said and been like if it had been written by women in Greece. Frustrated with being used as a pawn and having her story boil down to what she offers men.