#also they are threatened by Izzy’s relationship with Ed. they are.

[stizzysupremacy]

Izzy haters would largely not think as badly of Izzy as they do if he was played by a younger guy with generically-handsome-tv-star good looks. his actions would not be so irredeemable to them. They’d be talking about a love triangle instead of izzy “getting in the way” of the canon ship.

[darkfire359]

I feel like if it weren’t for Izzy, I would have so much more potential to enjoy Blackbonnet. In particular, Blackbonnet actually does contain many if not most of my favorite things in ships:

- someone who’s super repressed and doesn’t realize that what they’re feeling is love, maybe with a side of internalized homophobia

- someone who’s an obvious masochist and clearly into bdsm stuff overall

- someone with a definite praise kink

- someone who, upon seeing some fucked up shit that would be terrifying to normal people, is like “ooh I love you for that”

- weirdly intimate scenes of violence

- confusing power dynamics, with obvious power slopes but non-obvious slope directions

- potential for the love interest to simultaneously be the antagonist

- characters are surprisingly crazy, even when appearing normal

Now, what do you notice about these tropes? That’s right, Izzy gets all of them, often even stronger (especially with the Blackhands ship, but TBH with basically any relationship). So that means that if you want to write a fic focusing on these particular tropes, you’re a lot more likely to write it with Izzy. Similarly, if you want to read some fucked up Hannigram type stuff, you’re going straight to the Izzy fics.

It didn’t have to be like this. Blackbonnet as a couple (in at least one direction) stab each other, try to murder one another, try to murder each other’s friends, flirt via maimings, set ships full of people on fire, etc. They have so much potential for wonderful, horrible things.

But instead, Blackbonnet fics are disproportionately the healthy, normal ones. I’ve read ones that should be at least a little terrifying, where Ed kidnaps Stede, or is literally a kraken, etc, that somehow still end up being surprisingly vanilla. I’m pretty sure this is because Izzy is a magnet that attracts all the fucked-up-ness in the fandom instead.

[lightbluetown]

i saw some people say ed and zheng are master strategists while stede is just some guy with ridiculous luck, but i think that's unfair. sure stede's ideas are insane, but they fit the looney tunes ass universe of ofmd perfectly. they're mostly well-thought-out, well-executed and they showcase stede's strengths and growth! so allow me to talk about them:

1- ghost of the forest - 1x02

a fuckery™ before stede even knows what a fuckery™ is! this is amateurish and stupid in every way. he's not even threatening izzy with a real dagger-- that's a letter opener. does izzy actually believe that stede has a huge crew hiding behind the bushes? doubt it! but this weird little act is enough to establish stede as a (ridiculous) pirate figure to the legendary izzy hands and to accomplish his goal of taking a hostage back

2- lighthouse - 1x04

imagine coming up with the exact same idea at the exact same time as the most brilliant tactician of the seven seas! we don't know who came up with which parts of the plan (honestly it was probably mostly ed) but this is still bloody impressive

3- stark revelations - 1x05

stede's first big success! he uses his knowledge of the aristocratic world to get a shipful of rich assholes to destroy each other, but he's also showcasing what sets him apart from them: this plan only comes to fruition because stede talks to frenchie, olu and abshir as equals. as people he can learn from, as sources of inspiration

4- duel with izzy - 1x06

this one was absolutely unhinged, but its success was far from dumb luck. only stede could think of using a brazillian cherry wood mast and ed's weird stabbing lesson to win a duel, and that's what makes this plan so undeniably stede and brilliant

5- faking his death - 1x10

i love that he just had to "die" in the most dramatic way possible. a heroic fight (tiger), a realistic accident (carriage) and the most cartoony death in the book (piano)... not only is his triple-death able to convince everyone in barbados that he's dead for good, it also allows him to have closure with his family. it's filled with stede's ridiculous unique flair, but it's designed to be a fuckery™ through and through. ed would be SO proud

6- stealing jackie's indigo dye - 2x01

quick little stealth mission. did ricky manipulate stede into trying this out? sure. did ricky also ruin it? absolutely. but it was working until then! the swede isn't part of stede's crew at this point, but his respect for stede is what gets him to cooperate and risk his relationship with his beautiful wife. also, it's thanks to his love for fine things that stede immediately recognizes the value of "blue dirt"

7- prison break - 2x03

in my eyes no scene depicts stede's growth better than this one. knocking zheng's entire crew out with tea is the most stede thing out there, and this plan uses the cherry wood mast as well! this plan relies on stede's (unrealistic) tea knowledge, overly-fancy ship and ability to coordinate his crew. what makes it breathtaking is that he secretly sets this plan into motion while actively mourning the "death" of the love of his life. he's putting his life on the line to rescue ed's "killers" because he's emotionally mature enough to look at things from their perspective and forgive them

8- inciting a mutiny - 2x06

yet another brilliant plan that could only be executed by stede. this entire episode revolves around his idea of "turning poison into positivity" and here he, well, fights poison with positivity. stede captains his pirates with respect and care (best he can) which just so happens to be the opposite of ned. he exploits this and gently gets ned's crew to turn on him. he singlehandedly saves himself and his entire crew from a notorious pirate! oh he also literally invents walking the plank right after this

9- "it's only suicide if we die" - 2x08

okay, yes, this one didn't go that well (sorry iz). but it's not like ed, zheng or anyone else had any other ideas! stede's weird suicide mission, for the most part, worked. they needed to get through british soldiers to reach their ship and they did exactly that. if only they'd remembered to check if ricky had his gun... oh well, you live and you learn

sure, ed and zheng are legends and stede is a silly newbie with wild luck. but he's also quick-witted, creative, confident and brave! he's a damn good captain and he deserves to be recognized as a good strategist!

[transjudas]

Izzy knew how important his last moments were with Edward. They say your life flashes before your eyes just before your death. Well, Izzy saw a life full of love stunted by fear and trauma and repression. And he needed Ed to know that he had seen that he was growing and changing before Stede even came into the picture, but he was afraid. So he kept pushing the darkest parts of Ed.

Izzy needed Blackbeard to be who he was, because as much as Blackbeard was a creation to protect a traumatized and vulnerable Ed in a vicious world, it also became something Izzy needed to protect himself. Hiding behind his ruthless and bold captain, because he too couldn't handle the idea of being vulnerable. Of showing his feelings.

But then, increasingly over the time on the Revenge and desperately so in his dying moments, he realized that Ed needs to let that go to survive. And in those moments telling him to let that be. Izzy went from being so repulsed and afraid of Ed’s vulnerability because it threatened his own walls, to recognizing that it is the thing that will allow Ed to live without him and not end up dead within the fucking week.

And most importantly to their relationship, Izzy knew that Ed has spent decades hiding away in locked rooms while sobbing alone because he couldn't stomach the vulnerability and the open hurt. And then we, Ed, and the crew see Izzy watch Ed sob in broad daylight on deck, and he smiles and essentially tells Ed, “I see you. This is you. Thank god you’re here. Thank god I get to see the man I was so afraid of all my life in my last moments. Thank god I don’t have to die in Blackbeard's arms. Cold and angry and yelling for revenge. I get to go out with family.”

"There he is" goes from being taunting and cruel to being so warm and earnest and full of genuine vulnerable love.

If Izzy Hands taught Ed everything he knew about how to be a pirate, Ed (and Stede and the crew of the Revenge) taught Izzy everything he knew about love. And he got to show him that.

[starlithumanity]

I'm having a fascinating time rewatching Our Flag Means Death with the knowledge that Ed sees Izzy as a "safe" mentor/family figure ("safe" because Izzy is Ed's subordinate aboard the ship, which creates a more balanced power dynamic) upon whom Ed projects his many unresolved daddy issues. That stated interpretation from David Jenkins does work, even in season one!

Most of the fandom conceptualized season one Izzy as a power-hungry subordinate to Ed and a "co-parent" to the crew (paralleled with the Stede/Mary marriage) who has an understated masochist lust for the Blackbeard legend. All of that is true too, because Ed and Izzy's relationship is incredibly complex and fucked-up. I know from personal experience that this kind of layered toxic relationship is completely possible, though it might seem contradictory on the surface.

In season one, Ed considering Izzy as a mentor/family explains more why Ed let his first mate be so insulting to and controlling of him and still kept wanting Izzy to stay beside him. It adds more meaning to how Ed veers super hard into the violent Blackbeard role after feeling cornered and threatened by Izzy at the end of the season. (This also has further weight for those of us with family members who have disapproved quite loudly of our queer relationships.)

There is a strong parallel that I noticed previously between young Ed's reaction to his father abusing his mother and season one Ed's reaction to Izzy dueling Stede. Stede is linked to Ed's mother through the red silk and through the fact that Stede and Ed's mother--and Lucius--are the only people we see treating Ed with compassion/softness in season one. It thus makes sense for Izzy to be mirroring Ed's father.

Then there's another parallel in how Ed responded to Izzy mentioning Stede in a mocking way ("pining for his boyfriend") by choking Izzy, like how Ed had once responded to his father threatening his mother by strangling his father. In this moment, Izzy touched Ed's face with an intimate kind of familiarity and said, "There he is." Ed clearly found this unnerving, which some people read as sexually harassment, but it makes just as much sense for it to be his daddy issues getting triggered.

(GIF Sources: captain-flint and divineandmajesticinone)

I think part of why this dynamic was unclear in season one is because the writers wanted us to see that, even though Izzy is a mentor figure who taught Ed certain skills, Ed is a grown man who is fully competent on his own. He had likely started building the Blackbeard legend by the time Izzy met him, he has a clever mind that's constantly coming up with new plans, and when Izzy himself was left as captain, Izzy proved to not have the necessary charisma and compassion to lead the crew. Ed is the star power; Izzy is the manager, so to speak.

However, Izzy overestimates his importance and often talks about himself like he's a martyr to the Blackbeard legend, working so hard to keep both Ed and the crew in line. He claims that he's been "clean[ing] up [Ed's] messes... my whole life," which feels like a very parental complaint to me.

Ed fuels this martyr complex some in season two by physically harming Izzy, but notably, Ed doesn't threaten this kind of harm to the rest of the crew (though he isn't very careful with them either) until he's in the suicidal spiral of driving the ship into a storm. Before that, Ed threatens Izzy specifically, both because Izzy threatened him and Stede in season one and because Ed's trying, in his own fucked-up way, to prove to Izzy that he's following Izzy's guidance and "being Blackbeard." The toe-cutting also has some metaphorical weight: Izzy demanded that Ed "cut off" the gentler pieces of himself to be Blackbeard, so Ed starts cutting off literal pieces of Izzy in return. When it becomes clear that this isn't satisfying Izzy either, that's when Ed really goes off the deep end. ("I loved you the best I could," but I never could be enough to fit your expectations.)

(GIF Source: livelovecaliforniadreams)

Meanwhile, we see Izzy starting to question things specifically in response to Ed saying that Izzy could be replaced as first mate. Izzy thought his place, as a mentor/family and self-professed "martyr", was more secure than that, and it challenges his whole identity.

Throughout season two, the mentor/family dynamic is further emphasized via the parallel between Izzy/Ed/Stede and Auntie/Zheng Yi Sao/Oluwande. Others have discussed this more, but there's so much meaning in the similar ways these characters carry themselves, in the tension of Auntie disapproving of Zheng Yi Sao's feelings for "soft" Oluwande, and in the way Oluwande finally teaches Auntie to soften herself some for Zheng Yi Sao.

(GIF Source: bizarrelittlemew)

Additionally, in episode five of season two, we see Stede turning to Izzy for mentorship, proclaiming that Ed himself had recommended Izzy as someone who "made him into the captain he is today." People have questioned that as being a false manipulation from Stede, but I think there's a good chance that it was true! (Ed probably said this to Stede sometime during season one, when the two of them got to know each other so well.) "Taught him everything he knows" is definitely a flattering exaggeration, but hey.

(GIF Source: ofmdaily)

Throughout this and other episodes, we see Izzy continuing to take on a mentor-like role with Stede and the crew (and eventually Ed) as he tries to recenter himself after the darkness of the first three episodes. It's clear that Izzy is most comfortable playing the gruff and politically incorrect old fighter who offers guidance, but now he's letting himself branch out more and connect to the crew in new gentler ways. He even metaphorically "gives his blessing" to Ed and Stede's first time having sex by providing the musical accompaniment, which is the perfect amount of weird for this show, haha.

(GIF Source: izzyfag)

Izzy's transformative arc in season two also involves a steady pattern of reversals, corrected new versions of his treatment of Ed in season one, as Izzy start coming to terms with the harm he did to Ed. Other people have discussed this in more detail, but I think the pace of this change is realistic to what you would see in such a situation. Ed's responses to this, too, are consistent with him seeing Izzy as a mentor/family.

(GIF Source: edwards-teach)

I should further note that Izzy and Benjamin Hornigold (another abusive father figure from Ed's past) are two characters mirrored by the fact that they call Ed "Eddie" in season two. I can imagine that being the nickname Ed used when he was younger, before growing out of it. Izzy seems to start feeling the echo of that memory of younger Ed when Ed comes to him scared, asking for Izzy to "fix [his] mess" by shooting Ed like Ed "dreamed" about.

(GIF Source: blairpfaff)

Right before Izzy's death, there's a scene where Ed is triggered super hard in his daddy issues by the fisherman "Pop-Pop." I think the writers wanted to remind us of the parental trauma Ed has been through before giving us some catharsis through Izzy's deathbed confession and apology. In that moment, Izzy takes full accountability for what he did, while Ed cries and says, "You're my only family." Izzy redirects him in a final bit of mentorly guidance, telling Ed that the crew is there to be his family if Ed will let himself be loved, truly, in the way Ed has often rejected and distanced himself from being loved.

(GIF Source: izzyfag)

Now, I do think Izzy's death was the right choice for this show. I like that DJenkins went with the classic mentor death trope, and he did a similar thing with Buttons, the other old-timer first mate! I agree likewise with those who have discussed Izzy's loss as being a necessary step for the narrative to move forward both from Ed's darker self/parental trauma and from the older age of piracy that Izzy represents. Izzy was always meant to be a dark reflection of and a narrative support/conflict for Ed, and this is the natural culmination of that. His complicated legacy will continue to be something Ed has to reckon with, however, although Ed is trying to compartmentalize that right now.

I very much hope to see, in season three (🤞🏻), how Ed continues to process his past, especially now that he's trying for a domestic life that will likely lead into marriage. Marriage, from what I've seen, often acts as a staging ground for whatever parental trauma you had growing up, because you look to your parental figures as an example of how to do "adult" things. This is going to be a huge conflict for both Ed and Stede, who has his own personal negative marriage experience. I suspect Izzy will continue to represent this problem in some form or another.

(GIF Sources: kiwistede and yenvengerberg)

[follows-the-bees]

I wanna talk about Jim's journey. Their character arc is one of my favorites of the show.

In season one, Jim fits into two very well-trodded tropes and each one is subverted by the end.

First, we have the trope of a person (typically a woman) disguised as a man to go into hiding and also the old wives tale of no women on ships because they bring bad luck. We see some of this attitude through Frenchie's superstitions but the trope is subverted fairly quickly when Jim talks to them about wanting to be just Jim and the crew (and Nana) effortlessly use they pronouns.

OFMD has many, many ties to classic Western tropes and style of filmmaking. And Jim's whole character arc of season one fits the Revenge trope.

They have been trained to be a killer, hardened by life, only open to Olu but even that openness is just a sliver. When Jim is spurred on by Nana to complete that Revenge arc, they fall into it, leaving the safety of the ship, the community built there, from Olu.

But instead of more killing, Jim comes to an understanding with Spanish Jackie. They share a drink (which oftentimes in Westerns ends in a gunfight, unlike the show which starts with a knife fight and ends with communal drinking). Upon hearing that most of the men they are after are likely already dead, Jim decides to put down that knife and instead returns to the aptly named Revenge.

But in perfect subversions of tropes, Jim does choose Revenge, but not the type that eats at your soul and often ends in unhappiness or death. Rather, they are choosing community and softness.

Jim is one of Stede's loudest critics at the beginning of season one; Stede represents the opposite of how Jim was raised and once viewed the world.

But the beginning of season two shows how much Stede's way of piracy has influenced Jim. They no longer are following the Western Revenge storyline, but rather serving as the storyteller to the crew. (A direct parallel to the pilot.)

In fact Jim is reciting that same exact story that Stede told in the pilot. But it is different, darker. And that is because Jim is a different person, and in a different, darker environment at the moment. But invoking those good times that they remember. S1 Jim would have never told a story to try and make a crew member feel better.

We see Jim continue to choose kindness, mercy, grace with several characters. With Izzy, who is a dick but is their dick. And yes, also with Ed, until Ed's plan of suicide by crew now has affected and threatened their lives.

They also seem to be the first to realize what Ed is doing. And they refuse to kill Archie, who was drawn to them because of Jim's hope.

Jim's journey the rest of the season fills me with warmth. They get to be soft, they reunite with Olu, and form the cutest polycule with Olu and Archie. They also intervene and talk to the Pirate Queen about Olu, repairing their status.

The giant smiles on their moustached face during Calypso's Birthday, handing out drinks to the captain and Ed (showing the repaired relationship there), dancing with their lovers, and cheering on Izzy's singing shows how free Jim (and the whole crew) get to be now.

Jim is the embodiment of how Stede has tried to change piracy, of how Stede's effect has created a community.

Jim is the embodiment of the queer joy that this show unabashedly embraces.

[gaypiratepropaganda]

Izzy's apology in the finale seems to have taken some people by surprise. During the break between seasons, I tried a few times to politely bring up the fact that Izzy was technically abusing Ed. Not because I wanted anyone to stop liking him (you can like a character who's doing abuse! it's not real. who cares), but because I was worried about the reaction when season two came out. I love this show very much and I know how tumblr can get. Most importantly, I love fucked up fictional relationships and cannot abide people making these two boring. So here we go. (I also love lists)

First. Emotional abuse can occur in intimate relationships, family relationships like father and son, or in the workplace (Ed/Izzy triple threat!). Second, it has to be an ongoing thing. Someone doing one of these things once is not abuse. Abuse is a pattern of cruel and frightening behavior in order to control the victim.

(Don't feel bad if you didn't notice this stuff! It's relatively subtle and we're kind of trained to ignore and forgive it, especially from characters like Izzy. I wasn't 100% sure I was right about this either until season two confirmed it. I think a lot of people don't even know what emotional abuse is, at least where I live.)

Below are some pretty solid warning signs (this said "criteria" before but I changed it to be more accurate) for emotional abuse, followed by examples:

•Monitoring and controlling a person’s behavior, such as who they spend time with or how they spend money.

One of Izzy's main motivations in season one was trying to force Ed to act more like his image of Blackbeard. To achieve that, he bullied, belittled, and threatened Ed. He attempted to kill Stede because Ed was spending too much time with him and he felt that Stede was a bad influence.

• Threats to a person’s safety, property, or loved ones

He tried to kill Stede (Ed's loved one) or get him killed several times. Once trying to get Ed to do it himself with the doggy heaven situation, once directly with the duel, and once by calling in the navy.

He didn't directly threaten Ed's safety until episode ten, but he did seem to have Ed convinced that the crew would kill him if Izzy wasn't there to protect him and then when Ed did things he didn't like, Izzy threatened to leave. It's indirect, but has the same result: Ed felt he was unsafe unless he did what Izzy wanted.

• Isolating a person from family, friends, and acquaintances

Izzy seemed to keep Ed isolated from the crew, act as a go-between, and control their perceptions of each other to a certain extent. In the first few episodes, Ed was always shown alone in his goth cabin with Izzy as his only contact. When he started to make new friends Izzy tried to make him kill them.

After Izzy was banished, he secretly sent Ed's ex in to manipulate him and get him away from his new community. Then he got them all arrested, culminating in the deal he made with the English that would have made Ed his prisoner. Not sure that was on purpose, but it was so fucked up I had to mention it.

The bit that really got me, for some reason, was when Frenchie asked after Ed and Izzy told the crew he was sick.

• Demeaning, shaming, or humiliating a person

Izzy is often shown berating Ed and yelling at him. The way Ed reacts suggests to me that he may be used to this kind of treatment from people in general, or from Izzy in particular. He never leaves or asks him to stop, he just takes it.

• Extreme jealousy, accusations, and paranoia

He was so jealous of Ed's relationship with Stede that he got the literal military involved. His explanation to for why Ed enjoys spending time with Stede was that he has "done something to [Ed's] brain." Like, what magic powers do you think he has, Izzy?

• Making acceptance or care conditional on a person’s choices

Izzy made it very clear that he would only support Ed if he conformed to the Blackbeard persona. He also seemed to have Ed convinced that there was no way he could survive without Izzy's support.

I just realized that if you subscribe to the headcanon that Izzy acts as a sort of caretaker to Ed (I do not) then all of this is way more fucked up.

• Constant criticism, ridicule, or teasing.

In season one he criticized everything Ed did, all his plans, even while telling him to come up with more plans. He ridiculed Ed and called him names pretty often: "twat, namby-pamby, insane." Even in season two when he's doing better, most of their interactions consist of Izzy teasing and making fun of Ed for being mopey or in love.

• Refusing to allow a person to spend time alone

I didn't think of this until now, but Izzy is often around when Ed thinks he's alone. He knows about things that happen in scenes he isn't in. Izzy's always sort of lurking, though? And he does it to everyone. So I'm not sure if we should count this one.

• Thwarting a person’s professional or personal goals

He's ok about piracy related goals, but as soon as Ed tried to do something other than that he got so weird about it. "This crew is so talented, why are we even being pirates?" is what got Izzy to threaten Ed. Which is interesting because he was fine with the retirement idea before, when he thought he'd get to be captain.

• Instilling feelings of self-doubt and worthlessness 

"insane unpleasant shell of a man merely posing as blackbeard." "I should have let the English kill you. This... whatever it is you've become is a fate worse than death."

• Gaslighting: making a person question their competence and even their basic perceptual experiences.

He called Ed insane and implied that the crew would mutiny if he wasn't there to stop them. This is clearly untrue, as we were already shown that his method of "massaging the crew" consisted of calling Ed half insane and pulling Fang's beard even though Fang hates that. The fact that he calls Ed insane more than once while at the same time trying to get him to act more insane seems like basic gaslighting to me. Then again, Izzy's definition of "insanity" may be like, depression, crying, showing emotions, loneliness, and enjoying softness.

[can't find a gif of this so just imagine Ed in the gravy basket with Hornigold saying "you're worried you're insane."]

Something that wasn't on this specific list but is generally considered part of emotional abuse is manipulation: the use of indirect tactics to change someone's thoughts, feelings, or behaviors in an attempt to influence them for personal gain.

I think Izzy often tries to be manipulative. He's not the greatest at it, but it's the thought that counts. He manages to be surprisingly successful through persistence and repetition.

He's got Ed convinced from the first time we see them that he is useless as a captain without Izzy. That's why Ed feels like he needs him. He tells him that the only thing standing between Ed and a crew constantly on the brink of mutiny is Izzy. Then he tells him that he will leave if he can't live up to his expectations.

He has a pattern of lying to Ed or not telling him the whole truth. He threatens him directly and indirectly in an attempt to influence him and control his behavior. He wants power, whether he gets it by becoming a captain when Ed retires or by making sure Ed remains powerful by any means necessary.

this is what he was apologizing for, along with the years of being terrible to Ed before Stede came into the picture. I never expected him to admit it so clearly like that. He fed Ed's "darkness," poked at his trauma for so long because he needed Blackbeard. It was something they did together, and he enjoyed Blackbeard's dominance and cruelty.

Of course there are other things that can be part of this kind of abuse, like infantilization, silence, and harassment. There are more examples of abusive behavior from Izzy at the start of season two, especially in the scene where Ed's asking Izzy to kill him. but I am not ready to get into that right now.

Anyway, Ed and Izzy's storylines in season two only make sense to me with this in mind. Ed is recovering from not only the suicide attempts but also this fucked up situation he was in, whether he realizes it or not. Izzy learns to stop being such a shitboy and admits he was wrong. ~growth~

if you interpret their relationship differently that's obviously fine. but I think this is the most interesting interpretation, as well as what was intended. It's no fun for me when people make them both equally awful to each other. I like it better as it is in the show: Ed fighting back against Izzy's emotional abuse with physical violence, which only ends up traumatizing him further. It's such a unique and fascinating story.

[piratecaptainscaptainpirates]

I really found your meta on Ed's gravy basket Izzy flashback so interesting. I was wondering what your interpretation is of what Ed says to Izzy while he's dying. I'm not saying that Ed, Stede or the crew shouldn't/wouldn't have been upset when Izzy was dying. Ed had known him a long time, and Stede and the crew had grown to like and respect him more through series 2. But it was when Ed says something along the lines of "you're my only family" that did have me slightly confused.

Like, he just had a whole moment with Stede on the beach where he professed his love to him, and he just rallied with the crew to take down the English. So to then say that after all that Izzy is his only family?

Maybe it's because Ed still feels he has deep roots tied to Izzy, maybe because he still feels like he hasn't quite let go of his Blackbeard side, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe if he was the only remaining person left from his original crew, I would kind of get it, but Fang is still there. Though of course Izzy being his first mate does mean they would have had a closer bond, even if it was a toxic one. Sorry I'm rambling! Would love to hear your thoughts.

Honestly, in my heart of hearts, I think Ed only says that line so Izzy can respond with "Ed, you're surrounded by family." For Ed, Izzy is predictable (if not safe), and his relationship with Ed had just started to mend as Ed saw him become a safer person - it's a familiar fantasy to wishing you could see an abusive family member grow and become supportive of you. Izzy delivering that line is very important, I think, because it's such a huge constrast from how Izzy isolated Ed and acted like he was the most important person in Ed's life earlier in the show - here, he's encouraging Ed to lean on his relationships with others and acknowledging that he is not the only person who matters to Ed. In a conversation that had to be very tight, it was an easy way to get Izzy there without having Ed say something out of character or imply that Izzy is the single most important person in Ed's life.

However, I think another interesting angle of analysis takes into account how DJenks confirmed Ed sees Izzy as a father figure, and what familial relationships have been like for Ed in the past (especially fathers). Izzy is consistently contrasted with Ed's dad in s1 (like the framing of the scene where Ed chokes him for threatening him), and I like to think that Ed's thinking very literally there when he calls Izzy his only family. Izzy reminds Ed of his dad, he's the only character with whom he has that type of relationship, and he's also the only one of Ed's stand-in father figures with whom his relationship has started to mend (take Hornigold and even Pop-Pop as comparisons there). Izzy has just started to listen to Ed's feelings, encourage him to do what he wants, and support his relationship with his boyfriend. In a very real way, Ed's mourning the loss of having a father figure with whom he can have a supportive relationship.

[skrifores]

I have seen the point being made that you don’t have to be in a romantic relationship for some behaviour to constitute domestic violence. I’m seeing this said with regards to Our Flag Means Death and what some people perceive as domestic abuse on Ed’s part - that him not being romantically involved with Izzy shouldn’t mean behaviour between can’t be considered domestic abuse.

It is an excellent point that in many places, the definition of domestic abuse isn’t restricted to intimate partners! It is often widened to consider any violence, coercion and emotional harm taking place within a home environment. Under this definition, children can be victims of domestic abuse by their parents, it can occur between siblings, even roommates - especially with a live-in landlord situation. And of course, the Revenge as well as being a workplace is ultimately where the characters live.

I think it’s very clear that the show is a workplace comedy about pirates, but if you want to apply the definition of violence, coercion and emotional harm within a home environment to your reading to the show, that can be done.

Of course, I would be surprised if you genuinely view it that way and still made it as far as even watching Season 2, given the way what you consider to be domestic abuse in this fictional setting happens so very often with little to no moral consequence, and is often intended to be taken as a joke.

I mean. In the very first episode, the crew talk about killing Stede, and begin to plan for this, including lighting him on fire.

Jim threatens Lucius and actually physically locks him in a small wooden box in the second episode for what seems to be quite a long time.

I think in 4, Izzy pulls on Fang’s beard and it really upsets him. He also talks pretty openly about the intention to kill the Revenge crew, though I’ll let that go at this stage since he doesn’t really live there so much as being there for the purpose of murdering them and stealing their stuff. Still, poor Fang, that looked like it hurt.

While we’re on Izzy, he does also actively try to kill Stede by stabbing him, and he then he goes and does the olde worlde equivalent of calling the cops on him on the intention of having him executed, which seems pretty fucked up on the ‘violence’ part of our DA definition but also hits pretty hard on coercive control since he’s doing this to get Ed to behave differently.

He does prevent the Navy from executing Ed, which is nice, but he does point out that he regrets this, which, ouch, emotional harm. If we’re doing real world definitions, “I should’ve let the cops I called on you murder you” is the sort of thing that would make me feel pretty fucked up. And we all know what it means when someone tells you to watch your step.

But it’s not all about Izzy! (It’s really not, guys, there’s a whole TV show here!) Buttons bites Lucius - who ends up needing the whole finger gone! And he’s a visual artist!

Even my darling man Roach tries to eat the Swede, and I’ve gotta say, I don’t think they were on that island long enough to justify murder.

And who could forget Mary?? Wonderfully written character, love her, but, she does with malice aforethought attempt to kill her spouse in his sleep with a skewer. She was right to do it, in my opinion, but y’know, even without broadening the definition beyond partner relationships, murder of your spouse is pretty classic domestic abuse.

So, y’know, the point I’m getting at really is that if your definition of domestic abuse is violence and control wherein the perpetrator and victim share a significant aspect of their lives like living space - that’s a fine definition in real life. It is the one I use, in real life. But if you apply it to Our Flag Means Death, I really don’t understand how you stomached watching the first season or why you came back for more.

And if you only apply this definition with regards to Ed’s behaviour, but not the rest of the characters, I do wonder why that might be.

[uselessheretic]

wait also i love the thing people do where they say a fact about ofmd and repeat it enough times during their meta people just accept that it's true because "izzy only decided to try and talk to ed about his feelings when his job was threatened" literally isn't true. izzy decides to try and talk to ed about his feelings, tell him that he has love for him and he's worried for him, after the entire crew stages an intervention where they explain that they're worried for him and his relationship is toxic and izzy breaks down crying while fang and frenchie comfort him.

like fuck i wonder which one of these things made more of an impact on izzy! altho even then it's like... you know it's not izzy's "job" on the line, right? like we are aware that izzy would not be let go and made to start working on his resume, right? like "someone else will do the job" means "i am going to murder you if you do not do this job exactly as i say"

[carrymelikeimcute]

'If Ed has to GROVEL to Izzy why doesn't Izzy have to apologise to Stede for trying to KILL HIM..."

Ed doesn't have to grovel, he needed to apologise, and imo he could have done more to apologise or to make amends and move the relationship forward (not just with Izzy but with the whole crew - discounting the ones who died because of his actions btw) but he did do it in his own way, so...fine. It is what it is and it was enough for Izzy as a character to forgive him, so I'm OK with that as far as the narrative goes - even if I personally will never feel the same about Ed as I did in S1.

Can we acknowledge that shooting someone in the leg with no warning/cutting bits off them while they're asleep - isn't actually the same thing as challenging someone to a duel? E.g. Consent playing a pretty vital role.

Ed and Izzy were long-time partners/friends/co-workers, when Ed cut off at least 3 of his toes, mentally tortured and then tried to kill him, resulting in him being maimed/disabled, and then tried to emotionally blackmail him into killing Ed and then himself. Izzy and Stede were ENEMIES - Izzy had made that clear. Stede had made that clear. They didn't like each other and had no expectation of loyalty. Enemies try to hurt you - it's expected.

Izzy tried to kill Stede directly, once, in a duel that Stede agreed to - Stede was trying to beat him, just as much as Izzy was trying to - Stede beat him without killing him, but arguably by accident. Izzy could even have killed him/tried to kill him after losing his sword, but didn't. He lost the duel and was bound by its rules. So he has nothing to apologise for there, imo - Losing is its own punishment for the duel.

Reminding Ed of ED'S PLAN to kill Stede, is not 'trying to kill him'. It's Izzy doing his job, and making sure his captain's wishes are carried out - those wishes being unclear, even to Ed himself, are the issue. Izzy could have ignored Ed's order and killed Stede himself during the fuckery - but didn't. He left it up to Ed and then challenged Stede to a duel instead of stabbing him in the back.

Selling Stede out to the Navy was not a slight against STEDE, but against ED - and Izzy did attempt to apologise/justify himself to Ed, before he got punched in the face - and when Ed returns to the ship, he doesn't hold a grudge, as the apology, such as it is, has already been given. See above, re. Stede and Izzy were enemies. Even if Izzy expected Stede to be captured, he doesn't even consider Stede a real pirate and neither do the navy initially! They treat Stede as a joke. And Stede, being of a higher class, has opportunities to save himself. I don't think Izzy cared if Stede lived or died, but again, enemies.

If Stede is owed an apology by Izzy, he's also technically owed one by 1. his ENTIRE CREW for mutiny and 2. Jackie, who has now threatened to kill him/tried to cut his nose off. But no one thinks they should apologise, because they were acting as expected given the context of their existing, antagonistic relationship. See above re - THEY WERE ENEMIES!

I think it would be nice if Izzy did apologise to Stede at some point, but their relationship would need to develop further for that to happen. Imo, Izzy attempting to console Stede in s2 e7, and telling him that actually, the relationship he was so against is GOOD for Ed, is a sort of attempt at amends, as is his tutoring Stede, and he could have done more, if there had been time to explore that before he was killed off.

[izzysillyhandsy]

I sometimes wonder if the Izzy hate would have reached those dizzying heights if S1 had ended on episode 9.

Izzy would still have done almost all the bad things: making Ed unhappy, duelling Stede and wanting him gone, the deal with the English, his past with Ed/Blackbeard - except for hurting and threatening Ed after the breakup.

And even though all of this can be seen from different angles, it is possible to interpret it from the most damning perspective - and that should be enough to hate him, right?

But Ed wouldn't have turned into the Kraken, he wouldn't have killed Lucius, marooned half of the crew and cut off Izzy's toe.

And I am almost 100% sure that most of the Izzy hate comes from seeing Ed's drastic change in episode 10. Without it, sure, some people might have found Izzy unsympathetic or just unimportant, or a little shit. But that level of hate?

I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of the Izzy hate comes from "what Izzy made Ed do" and not from "what Izzy did to Ed".

Also, it is a way of dealing with the shock/cognitive dissonance of seeing a very beloved character turn "evil" after 9 episodes of being a gentle and misunderstood guy who is a pirate, yes, but who's fundamentally non-violent and good. How can you reconcile this with Ed suddenly killing a beloved (and completely innocent) character? And the extreme violence of the toe-cutting? (And yes, I know Ed burned people alive before, pirate-typical violence etc. But we didn't know these people and we didn't see them in close-up.)

But to blame Izzy for everything and to make him this evil part of Blackbeard - completely separate of "true Ed" of course - lets Ed still be the same gentle soul that loves a fine fabric, fell in love with Stede in the sweetest way and, although traumatized by his childhood, is at his core an innocent person that can be saved by removing the rotten influence of Izzy Hands - without confronting the self-hatred, self-centeredness, mistrust of others and tendency to violence that might be a part of "true Ed" as well.

And of course, if a group of fans started liking Izzy and maybe even defended/found understanding for his actions to a degree - where would that leave Ed? Is it really justifiable to fly into a murderous rage because your heart was broken (by a man you've known for a few weeks), because you're deeply unhappy and you've outgrown your pirate persona?

If Ed wasn't mentally abused by Izzy for decades, if it wasn't Izzy alone that drove Stede away, if Izzy hadn't duelled Stede out of the evilness of his heart, if Ed didn't desperately want to leave but Izzy forced him to stay in their toxic relationship, if it wasn't just Izzy and his hurtful words that drove Ed to become the Kraken...

...then maybe Ed wouldn't be an innocent babygirl anymore, and it would be much more difficult to see Ed/Stede as this perfect, unproblematic and sunshine-y couple.

It seems to me that seeing Izzy as "The Worst" and casting him in the role of the villain behind every bad thing Ed ever did is a quick and painless way to make Ed loveable without actually putting the work in (and the show actually avoided that up unto the death scene - one example is Izzy leaving in S1E4 and Ed manipulating him to stay; there are countless others).

I sometimes have the feeling that the hate for Izzy grows exponentially with more and more of Ed's darker side coming through in the show. And I don't get it - maybe because I am drawn to darker, fucked up characters and relationships. Give Ed his agency back and let him be cruel! Let Ed and Izzy have their mutually destructive, weird but intense dynamic!

Let Ed be a fascinating, loveable character with a (very) dark side - exactly like his partner for decades, Izzy - and you'll actually get a better character, and an additional fascinating relationship - as well as a more interesting story.

[jaskierx]

@piratecaptainscaptainpirates keeps posting meta which is a disaster (affectionate) bc it gives me Thoughts and Feelings

this post got me thinking specifically about izzy and control. izzy clearly wants and needs to be in control and he deliberately works to maintain this control. he acts as an intermediary between ed and the rest of the crew, choosing what to tell each party about the other and often lying. when he feels disrespected or as if he has no control over the crew, he lashes out - we see this when he makes lucius scrub the boat and when he cuts wee john's rations.

but when his control over ed specifically is threatened, we see him doing Something Big to try and get it back - such as deciding he's going to duel stede, or selling the crew out to the navy, both of which are attempts to get stede permanently away from ed by killing him.

then, in s1e10 when stede actually is removed from the situation, izzy is thoroughly unimpressed that ed is still acting 'wrong'. moreover, his role as the only go-between between ed and the crew is threatened - he panics when ed asks to speak to lucius, and he panics further when ed is being more open and like himself with the crew, because the only thing that's allowing izzy to keep his control over ed and over how ed interacts with the crew is the myth he perpetuates about ed being terrifying and unapproachable. if ed is violent and volatile and too busy to talk to anyone unimportant, then there's a role for izzy bc it makes sense to the crew that ed is not available to them. but if ed is Just A Guy, who wears a robe and sings about his feelings and wants everyone to join in with a talent show, then that myth has a massive hole in it and izzy's role is no longer necessary. so he pushes the exact buttons that he knows he needs to push to force ed back into the blackbeard persona and drive a huge wedge between him and the crew.

which leads us to the beginning of s2, where the pivotal moment that changes ed and izzy's relationship is when ed tells izzy that someone else could do his job. it's not when he cuts izzy's toes off, it's not when he overworks the crew, it's not when he's taking loads of rhino horn - the sole thing that crosses a line for izzy is the threat of being replaced. because losing his toes doesn't mean a loss of control - if anything, it solidifies his position as playing a unique role in relation to ed, since the rest of the crew remain unharmed. but the threat of replacement most definitely does.

and it's at this point that we see izzy trying to use the same tactic as in s1e10, pushing the right buttons by yelling at ed and referencing his feelings for stede, except this time there's nowhere else for ed to go. there's no defence mechanism to retreat behind. he's already in the persona that izzy wanted him to be in. he's already acting the way izzy wanted him to act. so he shoots him. and it's a pivotal moment, not because of the physical harm (because this has been discussed to death and violence in ofmd is not treated the same as violence in the real world) but because it's a turning point where izzy tries a Big Gesture that involves ed directly (as opposed to e.g. the duel or the navy, where he's trying to get stede away from ed as opposed to trying to do anything to ed) and it doesn't work like it did in ep10 - it backfires (literally!) and izzy is harmed as a result.

his entire redemption arc is based on him accepting that ed is better off with stede - and therefore on him ceding the control over ed that he's been clinging onto for years.

which is also why it makes so much narrative sense that he dies at the end of s2. because s1 izzy would not have got shot. s1 izzy would not have been there, helping with the plan, working alongside stede and ed together. he would've been trying to separate them, trying to find a way to get ed to leave stede and the others for dead, or working with the enemy if it meant he might get rid of stede and get ed back to himself.

but s2 izzy's arc is about learning to let go of his need to control ed and ed's image, and about how when he lets go of this ed gains the freedom to be himself and to interact with the crew as himself. he got the only ending that would make sense - a final bit of closure, a final letting go moment where he releases the last tiny bit of control he has over ed by apologising and telling ed to 'just be ed'. when izzy takes his last breath, so does blackbeard.

anyway thanks for reading my novel i love you have a great day

[sarucane]

Why didn't Izzy shoot Ed (then)?

Turns out that teasing out character logic is fun and people are interested so I'll just do it again ;)

Izzy has good reasons to shoot Ed here. Ed shot his leg and then outsourced the "kill Izzy" job to Frenchie. Now Izzy's a one-legged pirate, and as far as he's concerned his life isn't even worth living.

But Izzy is alive here. And he's alive because of what started when the crew intervened a few episodes back, told him he was in a toxic relationship with Blackbeard. The choices he made after that led to Ed shooting him, but also sowed the seed of a real bond between him and the crew, which led to him being alive here. Which--most importantly for answering this question--adds up to Izzy not being sure anymore that the old way is the right way.

Ed thinks Izzy will shoot him because there's rules to follow. Izzy told Ed "Blackbeard is my captain, not Edward. Edward better watch his fucking step." Well, Ed has come to the conclusion that he can't not be Edward. And he doesn't want to keep living torn between Blackbeard and Edward, alone and hopeless. He's desperate to let go, and is convinced the only thing "letting go" means is death, so he's setting out to make someone force him to let go.

And Izzy is the obvious choice of someone to make him let go, because Izzy does what Blackbeard tells him to.

But it's no longer that simple on this ship. It never has truly been that simple--Izzy was in denial about how human beings work when he demanded Ed just be Blackbeard again. And Izzy's changed, too.

Ed and Izzy are both caught between two ways of being in this scene. On the one hand, there's the pirate script, the Code of the Sea. Life is cheap, new first mates kill old first mates, first mates kill captains. Weakness is death. Roles are static and permanent, and the only "correct" change is death.

On the other hand, there's the Revenge script, where "life means something" and people "live for each other, not just to survive." Where deviations from the norm aren't just accepted, they're encouraged. Where people can be vulnerable and be supported, be weak and still worthy of life. Where people can change.

When Izzy refuses to shoot Ed, he is embodying that conflict. Izzy doesn't shoot Ed because he finds he really is done with the script. Because when it comes down to it, he may have threatened him--but he does not want to kill Ed.

But rather than risk or show the kind of vulnerability he did right before Ed shot him, Izzy frames this in the old narrative terms. He expresses contempt for Ed, that it's weakness that is making Ed come to Izzy for an assisted suicide. Izzy calls him "Eddie" as a way of diminishing him. He uses the kind of language he used back in S1E4, falling back on ideas like 'making a mess' that make sense to him, but invalidate the seriousness of what's happening here.

But at the same time, Izzy's actually setting his first healthy boundary in his relationship with Ed. Not "you need to do/act/etc," but "I will/will not do/act/etc." Izzy's spent years encouraging, feeding, and enabling this toxicity. He's not going to anymore. And he's not going to do it because he knows it's wrong--but he can't say that. Maybe doesn't even really know it.

It's a truly mad mix of growth and regression, and it's no wonder that Izzy falls back on the old script when he's alone and tries to shoot himself. And it's also no wonder that he fails, because he knows this is the wrong way to be. That both he and Ed deserve better.

[starlithumanity]

I don't even know what you can say to the people who somehow missed that all of Ed's violence is a) anti-imperial, b) protective against direct repeated threats to himself and his loved ones, or c) self-destructive in the hopes someone will respond by killing him during his suicidal spiral. (That last example is fairly indirect and performative and comes from a place of severe nihilistic suffering.)

I don't know what you can say to the people who somehow missed that the violence is triggering and traumatic and exhausting for Ed, and that he is desperate for a chance to live differently but has also never known any other life. Stede gave him the one true glimpse he's had of something gentler! Ed didn't fully know how fucked up his life was before because that was normal to him. That's what growing up traumatized does to you.

I don't know what you can say to the people who somehow missed that the suicidal spiral is a result of Ed's circumstances: of Ed being threatened by Izzy after Izzy repeatedly found ways to force Ed back towards the violent life Ed wants so much to escape, of Ed losing his one glimpse at safety and happiness through Stede and now having to face the darkness knowing he nearly found something different, of Ed feeling like the only way he can survive in this world is by being an "unlovable" monster he hates--and then he's confronted by Izzy telling him he's still not getting it right. Of course Ed gives up then.

I don't know what you can say to the people who somehow missed the show's themes about how much harm is caused by toxic masculinity and by masking your true self and by cultures founded on trauma and self-hate and burnout. (You do see the burnout in Ed, yeah?)

I do get why some people might not understand the complexities of Ed's relationship with Izzy--how codependent and enmeshed their identities are--or the layers of symbolism that position Izzy in the story as a metaphor for traditional pirate culture and its harmful impact. (Which is particularly triggering for Ed on a daddy issues level because that's his original trauma.) If you understand those things, the unique nature of the physical harm Ed does to Izzy in this story makes even more sense.

Ed also frequently communicates through metaphor himself. Him cutting off Izzy's toes is not only a show trying to convince Izzy he's playing Blackbeard right and not only a response to Izzy repeatedly threatening Stede/continuing to threaten Ed, but also is meant to physically represent the harm that Izzy has done emotionally to Ed. Ed is communicating to Izzy the only way he knows how anymore: "See how it feels to be forced to lose parts of yourself? Stede was a part of me. My hopes of softness and joy were a part of me. You cut those off too."

There is so much evidence against the thought that Ed is some irredemable, monstrous lover of violence who will hurt Stede someday. Stede would have to repeatedly and directly threaten someone else Ed loves first (which Stede won't do), and even then, Ed would really have to fight with himself.

It's not his nature, y'all, and I'm so frustrated that some people keep insisting it is. I'm frustrated about what that says about people's ability to empathize and consider reasons for or contexts behind behaviors--particularly when the character in question is an openly queer and likely neurodivergent indigenous man. Is it so hard to have compassion and forgiveness for him? Please don't get stuck in that punitive, dehumanizing mindset.

Redemption is so important, which is why I appreciate that Izzy gets a growth arc once he stops centering his entire identity on the Blackbeard persona and clinging to toxic masculinity. (Seeing Stede's impact, how different things could be, vs. the harm caused by the traditional ways, changes Izzy too!) Izzy's time, as a side character and mentor figure and piracy metaphor, does end, but first he gets to live with more meaning and unlearn many of the negative behaviors. That's the goal, right? To move forward.

[suffersinfandom]

Heyo, @nidmightcookies! This is my response to your reply on Atticus' post over here -- I didn't want to take away from the message of that post or the additions from other POC.

Sidenote: I'm extremely white and have no credentials that make me qualified to talk about race (I'm just a person who reads and tries to listen), and my takes are probably going to show that. That's another reason I didn't want to clutter up the original post with my reply.

In response to this

“Why is it racist to depict Ed as uncontrollably violent?  Because he's not actually depicted that way in the show.”

you talk about Ed baiting the crew to murder him and committing other violent acts. The original point is stating that Ed is not depicted as uncontrollably violent in the show, not claiming that he perpetrated no violence full stop. Yes, Ed does violence. No, he is not uncontrollably violent.

What Ed does is purposeful, not uncontrollable. He doesn’t push Lucius off the ship after he gives up all hope because he’s a violent guy who just does stuff like that, and the mutiny situation in S2E2… as allthinky said in a response, “that’s Ed at the end of his rope,” not him being uncontrollably violent. He’d been working towards suicide ever since he started baiting Low. As a backup plan, he’s been working the crew hard, disregarding their well-being, and being an overall awful boss in an attempt to incite a mutiny. 

Yes, he was “a serious, immediate threat to his crew” by the time he was out of other ideas to make someone take him out. Ed commits acts of violence -- I don’t think I’ve seen anyone claim he doesn’t -- but he always does so with some amount of reason (not necessarily good reasons) and control. 

“Upon reflection, my biggest issue may be with the people who argue that Ed's never been shown to be violent, or that any time he has resorted to violence, he's absolved of blame by the fact that someone was mean to him first. Which... I don't think I've seen you make either of those arguments at any point in the past.”

I’m really glad that you mentioned that OP hadn’t made either of those arguments (that you know of), that was genuinely very cool. As for the rest of it, I don’t believe I’ve seen anyone say that Ed is “never shown to be violent” or that he can always be “absolved of the blame” unless you want to remove all of the nuance from common talking points. 

He is never shown to be more violent than the average pirate and, due to his deep-seated trauma relating to his own capacity for violence, he’s actually on the less violent end of the pirate spectrum. He can’t be absolved of all blame for his actions because he’s a grown man who makes his own choices (and saying otherwise robs him of his agency). What I’ve seen said is that Ed’s actions are informed by things like trauma, abuse, and racism. His actions make sense. They’re not spontaneous violence committed because Ed flies into rages and homicidal spirals out of the blue.

“Not saying we shouldn't consider it [that is, are we “assigning more weight to Ed's violent actions than those of other characters or assuming he's worse than he actually is”], but I mean. If a white character on the show had cut off his employee's toes and fed them to him, shot him in the leg, ordered his death, held a gun on his other subordinates, marooned some/tossed one overboard, threatened to drown the ones that remained... because he was pushed into it, with the same combination of abusive childhood/hostile work environment... would he be equally deserving of that consideration? Would it be an overreaction to call him dangerous?”

Probably, but if everything was the same except Ed Is White Now, his baggage and his relationship with Izzy wouldn’t be exactly the same. Ed's race isn’t inconsequential. We can't really remove race from the story and end up with the same character, y'know?

Also: I do think it’s inappropriate to turn this question back on POC. I don’t think that POC are obligated to reconsider biases against a white character.

“Izzy is crew”

Ed’s relationship to Izzy is not comparable to his relationship with the crew. The crew have done nothing wrong and haven’t behaved antagonistically towards Ed. Izzy and Ed have a complicated, toxic, and difficult relationship (regardless of where you stand on whether or not Izzy’s abusive), therefore any harm caused to Izzy has to be considered differently than harm caused to the rest of the crew.

“Even if we say that he doesn't count, Ed still pushed Lucius off the ship.”

Yes, Ed did do that, but I think that Atticus is talking about Ed’s S2 actions in that point, not what happened in S1. Most (I think all?) meta I’ve read does consider Ed pushing Lucius off the ship an act of violence that Lucius himself did nothing to provoke. 

This might be controversial, but I’d put Ed pushing Lucius overboard on par with, like, a particularly unjust firing in a workplace that isn’t a pirate vessel. When we watch OFMD, we have to adjust our physical violence meters to account for the fact that we’re dealing with an environment that’s full of physical violence.

“Also, emotional abuse directed at the rest of the crew is still abuse”

I don't consider Ed emotionally abusive. He works the crew hard. He’s a terrible boss who doesn’t give his employees vacation days or paid time off and then throws them a sad pizza party. That sucks, it’s not okay, and his final death spiral in S2E2 is terrible and he never should have involved the crew in that. 

Abuse is a pattern of behavior that’s meant to control people. Not all harm is abuse. When I say that Ed isn't abusive, I'm not saying that he didn't hurt people.

“So... I was raised by a physically and psychologically abusive parent. I get that Ed's been hurt, is still hurting, and why. The "why" doesn't matter for the question of "did he or didn't he", though. It may or may not be his fault, he may or may not have done it because he felt unsafe. The point is, his actions did hurt people.”

Same, friend, and I'm sorry you went through that. (That’s actually one of the reasons I’ve always been wary of Izzy. What he says and does in S1 is too familiar to me, sometimes to a point where I can’t watch certain scenes.) I don’t think anyone’s saying that Ed isn’t hurting anyone, or that all of his actions can be attributed to abuse. If that’s not what you’re getting at here, apologies for misunderstanding.

“His boss that he was trying to control was brown.  Was that a factor in his power play though, or was it because Taika wound up being cast as Blackbeard? Any other (white) actor in the role, would Izzy be as bad for trying to control him? Would the scripts have gone a different way?”

Here’s the thing. In the show we have, Blackbeard is played by a Maori/Jewish man, and this fundamentally alters the character. There are things in the show -- whole episodes, if you want to look at S1E5 and the fancy party guests who treat Ed like exotic entertainment and not a peer -- that wouldn’t be the same if Ed was white. 

And yeah, Ed being brown changes the dynamic between Ed and Izzy. It would still be bad if a white guy was trying to control another white guy, but it wouldn’t be bad on the same level. Same goes if they were both brown. A white man trying to control the behavior of an indigenous man is worse.

“Izzy got permanently disfigured, crippled, and dead, while Ed came out largely unscathed in a physical sense, due to Muppet logic. Not to say one is more deserving than the other, but for a bunch of fans, there's probably a sense of Izzy getting the short end of the stick, to consider.”

That’s fine if some people feel like Izzy got the short end of the stick. It’s fine that some people feel like Izzy’s arc was kinder to him than it should have been. It’s okay to feel whatever! We connect emotionally to different characters and that biases our opinions and meta. That’s not a crime. We just need to be aware of our biases and why they exist.

The thing with OFMD is that Ed is a main character with more background and a story that, at every turn, asks you to sympathize with him. We’re given a look into Ed’s psyche. We understand at least some of his trauma and hurt and why he acts the way he does. Izzy has virtually no backstory and we’re never offered a glimpse into his mind; we don’t know why he’s like that. You can totally like a secondary character (or even an antagonist!) with no real canonical background or mental groundwork. It’s fun to ask why characters do what they do when canon doesn’t offer us any answers, and who doesn’t love a mystery box? 

But with OFMD, it can raise eyebrows when people say their main concern is the suffering of a white man who behaves antagonistically towards a brown man, especially when that brown character is a well-developed lead who also suffers (and suffers at the hands of aforementioned white character). It’s not inherently racist for someone to care more about Izzy than Ed, but it’s also not unreasonable to ask that someone to think about the possibility that subconscious racism could be factoring into their point of view.

“I don't think it's fair discussion to have a rule saying ‘even though you didn't directly call out the brown man, your argument is still racist’... even if it's true in many cases, it effectively means that no criticism of the character can ever be considered valid. If someone wants to argue ‘removing your employee's toes and feeding them to him is abusive behavior’, they can't, because of the unspoken skin colors involved? I don't know what the solution to this is.”

No one is saying that all criticism of a character of color is racist or invalid. As allthinky said in response, we’re saying that “those critiques have to be based on real evidence, and placed in a careful context, so that their actions can be understood as human, and not just the brutality of some brute.”

Criticize, but criticize with evidence and with awareness of the context of the criticized behavior. 

With the Izzy example, you have to consider the context of their relationship and Izzy’s actions throughout S1. Izzy isn’t just an employee: he’s a trusted second-in-command who has been insulting, controlling, and disloyal; he endangered not just Stede but also Ed and the rest of the crew; he told Ed that he was better off dead than acting as he was, and that Izzy's loyalty belongs to the violent worksona that Ed wants to shed. Is Ed being abusive when he’s reacting in response to abuse from his abuser? 

“[T]he show has layers (like an onion). Sometimes the meaning is not entirely surface-level, and everyone has a different level of comprehension. Sometimes obvious things to us aren't obvious to other fans/vice-versa. There's a whole 'nother discussion of media literacy to be had.”

I think that Atticus said it best here: “This is not a subtle show. That's not to say it's a simple one [...]. It's amazingly layered and emotional responses by characters are often extremely complex. However, when the show is trying to tell you something, it's not subtle and it never tries to hide it.”

There are a lot of things in OFMD that are subjective and open to interpretation, and those things are fun to discuss even when we have different takes. There are also a lot of things that are very clear. When people try to subvert the messages and ideas that OFMD is conveying loudly and openly, other fans get suspicious and wonder if the folks doing the subverting have an agenda, a bias, or just misunderstand what the show is saying.

I hope that reply was sufficient!