#and do no get me started on sex repulsed vs sex favorable….

[problemeule]

urgh

[dathen]

Ao3 Tags - Asexuality!

I’ve been talking to some fellow writers about asexuality in fic lately, and one thing I LOVE when authors do when writing ace characters is to be up front about the variety of ace they’re writing.  (FYI: this post is in the context of TMA fandom but could be applied to others)

This isn’t always doable--there are tons of fics where it just won’t come up at all, or you may want to leave it more open so that people can interpret what they want.  “Jon goes out to lunch with his friends and makes an ace culture joke” doesn’t beg a “hm....is this sex-neutral or sex-averse Jon.”  A lot of aces don’t even see themselves with a “subtype” and don’t need to.

But!!  If you do have a specific angle in mind, such as a sex-favorable ace, or one who likes kink scenarios but not participating in sex, or a fully averse/repulsed ace, it is GREAT when it’s tagged for (or in an early author’s note if not easily included in a tag):

Over and over I’ve seen feedback like “I was so surprised that Jon was the same type of ace as me!  I’ve never seen it before!”  Knowing that people love reading about sexualities and experiences that resemble their own, this gives them the means to actually hunt that down vs. waiting to stumble across it in the ocean of fic out there.  

The ability to read fic about an ace character in a nonsexual romantic relationship is such a rare and beautiful gift, and the #1 reason I got involved in this fandom.  But it’s getting much harder to find, between the sheer amount of TMA fic out there, and the fact that a lot of lower-rated fic assumes a sexual relationship in the background.  Sometimes we just get that craving of “I want to see people in love/having physical affection and KNOWING that it’s not any less for not having sex.”  Having something we can check tags for or filter by to find this is!!  a godsend I tell you!!

It gives a lovely security blanket for your ace readers for knowing the context of the work.  I do NOT believe that authors have to self-disclose their own identities, and know a lot of allo authors who get sensitivity reading for what ends up as very thoughtful fic, so that’s not the issue. But, for example, if someone is writing a gray-ace Jon without tagging it, it can be a pretty harsh shock to suddenly stumble across a scene of Jon being sexually attracted to someone.  Without tags or context, we may not know if it’s just flat-out erasure, or a purposeful exploration of the ace spectrum!  And like I mentioned above, sometimes you get that craving for a healthy nonsexual relationship--but end up being in suspense through the entire fic over whether a single line will eliminate the possibility.

“Canon Ace Character” is a nice start, giving us that assurance that you’re keeping his asexuality in mind while writing.  But going that step further to tag by variety of ace both helps celebrate that variety AND helps readers find your works that will appeal to them!

[ayy-spec]

Anything to Add?

The final question in this survey was a write-in section for people to leave any additional comments. 113 people responded.

Important/Particularly Interesting Comments

• I hope this goes well for you because you seem nice and if you have any advice for new to the community 15 year olds like me, don't be afraid to share because I'm trying to embrace my sexuality as much as possible but it can be hard when I don't know where to go or turn to to find what I'm supposed to do and where to ask questions and just fully embrass this part of me and it can be hard when I don't even know many if any aspecs so representation is great and it is helpful to hear your experiences and how you handle certain parts, so just keep doing what your doing because it is making a difference [note: 🥺🥺😭]

• i often consider myself more as just aroace rather than aro and ace seperately so i prefer seeing the blue and orange aroace flag over the individual aro and ace flags

• I don't really shorten my identity often with aroace, only when im feeling very romance repulsed and its been a while since I felt romantic attraction. I am a pan-demiromantic asexual. My pan label makes me feel more connected to the lgbt+ community bc it feels like my nonbinary and intersex status doesn't count either. I know I belong in the queer community, but the lgbt+ community is so sexual orientation focused.

• Thank you for having a wide variety of labels to choose from in the options!! I don't see the term aegoromantic very often on things, it feels nice to be known I guess haha

• Thank you for this, i recently started thinking about being in arospec and it was so relieving, all this time i thought something was wrong or maybe i was broken. I'm still trying to learn more about it, and I'm grateful for people willing to teach and help

• didn't realize I hadn't experienced sexual attraction until I finally did and was like "OH, no wonder all my other relationships felt like I was playing pretend"

• I dont often tell people I'm gray aroace. Not because of shame or it not being "as important" (I'm a gay trans dude) but I think because I just feel its a very intimate part of myself, as well as my romanticism and sexuality (in terms of like asexuality) feeling as though it doesn't always need a label. I'm fine just being myself most of the time, a lot of labels can be tricky for myself I think. I'm happy the label exists nonetheless though because Its nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

• I'm queer! But if I'm getting down to the bones of it, I'm pan/ace. Still relearning how to be proud of that, after The Grand Clusterfuck years back.

• even though I would be considered to have an alloromantic orientation, alloace isn't really a term I feel any strong connection or attachment to

• i'd like to add that i do consider myself alloaro and use that label openly but i'd also not consider myself 100% allosexual. i'm questioning my sexuality but even if i do end up feeling more solidly ace-spec i'd still use the alloaro label

• Idk who else does this or if this is interesting enough to write down, but I thought I would! I use Aroace as a label. Other, smaller labels inside that would probably fit me better! Aroace feels too big, like it doesn't *really* define exactly who I am. But at the same time, I prefer using it because more people know what Aroace means (at least compared to myrromantic and myrsexual). I use Aroace so the public can define me. I don't typically use it around my close friends 'cause they already know my idiosyncrasies and where I really am. They already made their own definitions for me, so I don't have to make one for them!

• I'm still figuring myself out, so I leave myself at the blanket terms and hopefully everything'll work out in the end

The rest of the responses are below:

Comments Alerting Me About Typos (that I was then able to resolve)

• There's a typo in your "sexual orientation labels" question, because you have Aroflux listed and not Aceflux, but I didn't want to confuse things so I put Aceflux (which I do use) under Other. I also am polysexual (I flux between polysexual and asexual but I am always aegosexual) but didn't know if I should but it under Other anywhere since it's not an acespec label. I consider my polysexuality tied to me being aego/aceflux though, which is why I mention it here.

• the sexual orientations options are the same of the romantic ones ( for example, there's arovague and arospike in the sexual cathegory)

People Clarifying/Expounding Upon Their Own Identity/Experiences

·  to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.

• I’m still a confused gorl and I really only know that I don’t like sex it sexual acts but I do like romantic and sensual acts

• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction

• I'm also animesexual and fictosexual (and romantic I guess but I don't like using the SAM for myself).

• I have never seen most of these labels, haha, I expect one of them is the one I always forget that's for being aro due to past trauma but people always assume it's romantic/sexual trauma so I don't use it and thus have forgotten it...but that's the essay I'm not usually up for writing: was biromantic but then had several awful life events on top of each other and had a complete breakdown and have been aro since. Unclear if it's permanent but it's been 14 years now. [note: I believe this person is thinking of caedromantic]

• I tend to use the word ace more than asexual because it's shorter, but I don't feel more favorably about one than the other.

• i can't tell the difference between platonic vs romantic attraction, and am unsure if people i have "liked" in the past was romantic, platonic, or a fake stemming from peer pressure.

• Also Gender-Neutral/Agender

• I’m gray-aro but identify more with being biromantic even though I know I’m aro-spec. As for sexual orientation, I’m just completely ace xD

• The fact I'm still trying to figure out my gender makes it harder to pinpoint exactly what my orientations are :( but I usually say I'm queer, and if it's safe: Bi Ace, and if I can get more specific: biromantic grey-asexual

• I also use a platonic label (biplatonic). I use it not in a friendship way, but more like in a QPR way.

• Thank you for doing this! My identity on the aro/ace spectrums has shifted a lot over the years and while I’ve just settled on aroace and queer for the most part, this community is so diverse and under appreciated. People who find joy in/identify with micro-identities are valid and deserve representation!

• I'm still figuring out my romantic orientation but it's looking less allo by the day lmao

• My romantic label is very fluid, but in terms of sexual labels, very sex repulsed Asexual

• Content with just Aspec cause it's difficult to pinpoint anything but cool with both asexual/ace and aromantic/aro

• I think of my romantic orientation as halfway between aromantic and homoromantic

• I'm a polyamorous ace, if there'd be a way to include that sometimes that'd be neat :)

• I am still questioning my identity

• I used to identify as 100% ace but now I have no idea other than that I seem to be pan-ace in some way shape or form so my identity is ???people???

• Sex/romance repulsed and I have aesthetic attraction

• to clarify: i'm unsure whether or not i am demi or aceflux; so i use graysexual since both labels technically fall under that as an umbrella term.

Queer Rights

• Trans rights, baybee 🤠🦂

• I just hope a-spec and aro-spec people will experience less negativity and hate this year <3

• Aspec rights!!

• aspec rights, baby

People Being Nice to Me  (I appreciated this thank you everyone!!)

·  :)

• Have a good day

• Uhhh, cool survey, nice to see a lot of labels.... good job! Nothing I have to add, it was great

• Have fun chief, thank you for your work

• Thank you for creating!

• thanks for the survey! I don't know too many aspec in person so I love participating in things like this about the ace/aro community!

• Thank you for what you’re doing

• just hi :)

• thanks!!

• I really love your blog! Reading your posts always makes me happy :) [note: thank you!]

• Good luck, have a nice day !

• I hope you're having a good day :)

• you're lived and valid af!! have a great day!!!

• Thank you for all your hard work i really appreciate it ☺️

• Drink some water Right Now OP

• Nope, :> hope the best for you.

• Cool survey, 10/10 would survey again.

• 💛

• Have a nice day uwu

• Nope! Have a nice day!

• Thank you for making pride flag edits! They're really nice! [note: thank you!!]

• nope, but this is really cool!!

• ❤️

• Have a good day.

• I think this survey idea is super cool! Definitely a great way to see what sort of aspec people are on tumblr :)

• You are doing the lords work

• Thank you for asking us.

• good luck!

• This is really cute idea :)

• I hope you're having a nice day!

• Good luck in your endevours!

• Thank you for making our community visible!

• Have a good day :3

• Have a good day!!

• Keep doing great stuff!

• Thank you for all the positivity I get from your blog! It's super helpful, keep it up :) [note: thank you!!]

• thanks for doing this. recognition is always nice

• Have fun <3

• Lots of love 💛

• This is a cool project, thanks for doing it and good luck! :)

People Saying They Love Me (and I love you, random a-specs)

·  i love you OP!!!!!

• love you, hope you have a great day

An A-Spec Person Being Rude to Other A-Specs

• If you enjoy sex with your romantic partner then you are not asexual

A Person Who Is Not A-Spec Being Rude To A-Specs

• sweetie im sorry that you're so insecure that you feel like you have to make up new identities to feel better about yourself. if you are a lesbian or bisexual please know that you are welcome in the community, but other than that making thousands of microlabels like this makes a huge joke out of what was once an important and respected group. nobody takes us seriously anymore because of this shit. does labelling your identity like this really help you with anything? demisexual and fraysexual and all this are just fancy words for normal human feelings that everyone has. there is no need to microlabel it.

Other

· [variations of “no” (12)]

• not sure that helps lmao but still hope it does. all the best

• Axolotls (or as I like to call them, asexulotls) are amazing and I love them [Note: the man in question]

• Sorry, I can't remember the names of any blogs that do edits

• Ok random but the colors of the aro/ace flag? The blue and orange one? They’re gorgeous.

• I'm not so sure if I should use the aroace flag, I feel comfortable using both aro and ace flags, but I don't like the colors for the aroace flag :c [note: these are in chronological order, it’s a total coincidence that these comments are together]

• Curious to see where the survey goes

• It would be cool if you could also do some aplatonic-spectrum edits!

• there were fully half of the terms on that list that i had never even seen before. like, everything below litho down to no label was entirely new to me. at some point i will look into those! (but not right now, my brain is full enough at the moment)

• actually had to look up the majority of these orientations. Thank you for the opportunity to learn!

• Gonna reblog and follow and hopefully learn a bit more, about others and myself

Note: The only comment that is not listed in order is the first comment, which I put at the top because I found it the most important. It’s so important that kids and teens have space to explore their identity and learn about themselves. The reason I made this blog in the first place was because I was 19 and working on figuring out my gender and sexuality. Now that I’m a bit older and understand things better, I’m so glad that I’m able to help people in this way. 

I make it a point to be very openly queer in my life and at work because I need LGBTQ+ people, especially youths, to know that we’re here. I’m lucky that I live somewhere that I can be visibly queer and speak about it openly. We are everywhere, and there’s more of us than you think!

Something that I really like about the comments at the top is that they show how diverse we are, and how people use words differently. Some people feel like they’re more aroace than aromantic and asexual separately, and others consider their romantic and sexual orientations to be completely different things.

I definitely relate to the person who identifies are myrromantic and myrsexual with their friends but just says aroace when speaking with people they don’t know as well. I believe a lot of people use different words depending on who they’re speaking with.

[ilovemygaydad]

punk!patton au masterlist

characters: listed under the cut

pairings: moxiety, logince, background remceit (sleep/deceit), past thomas/female oc, and possibly more in the future

rating: teen (see under read more for more info on that)

warnings are on the individual chapters :)

links to the fic itself:

part one

part two

part three

part four

part five (updated 3/22/19)

ao3 version

companions:

serpent’s silk

weak spot

mouth breather

answered questions and random ramblings:

about virgil:

about his celiac disease

when they discovered he was celiac

more about his celiac disease

is virgil adopted?

about virgil’s biological mother

can’t he bring a lunch?

about patton:

a bit about logan and patton’s relationship

more about logan and patton’s relationship

does patton want logan to be a dad-dad

patton’s curls vs his emo style

what does patton normally wear?

tattoos and piercings?

abandonment issues?

about his meltdowns

does he want to be a dad

music tastes

about roman:

his deafness

about his hearing aids

his reaction to virgil having a black eye

how he feels about patton

roman as a teenager with a splash of thomas

about logan:

has he wanted to adopt anyone else?

about emile:

future role in the fic?

about dc:

how old is he and what does he like about remy

artwork:

patton being edgy

virgil being a sweetheart

some cuTe artwork of patton and virgil

patton and virgil moodboards

more moodboards!!!

a shitpost about patton and logan

the softest, sweetest baby boy

miscellaneous:

virgil cosplay (makeup)

questions are always welcome! i love to talk about these guys and the story!!! <3

any artwork is totally cool as long as you tag me so i can see it!

other stuff:

more on that there rating:

there will be no nsf/w stuff in this fic other than like some very vaguely implied things through like winks. i am extremely sex repulsed, and n/sfw things trigger my anxiety really badly, which means that i can’t write or read those things. it isn’t fair to myself to attempt to please potential readers at my own cost, and i deeply apologize to anyone who wanted this story to go there in the future. this goes for all of my other fics as well, but i guess i never said this outright. sorry, but at the same time, not.

character bios (italicized are the mains, and the regular text are the supporting):

patton summers (16): our main boy. homoromantic asexual. leaning towards 5′10.5″. he was orphaned as a toddler and spent almost all of his childhood in an orphanage because he just had too many emotions for prospective parents to deal with. he hides said emotions away behind his punk exterior, but a certain sweet pastel boy is starting to crack away at that shell...

logan summers (36): patton’s new legal guardian. super gay. jewish. around 5′10″ or so. [REDACTED until part 6]. Loves his mom and step-dad to pieces. Wishes he could visit them more often, but there’s only so much that he can do with his teacher schedule. btw he teaches first graders, and he loves them so much. he is extremely smart, and he has a hobby of collecting books!

virgil sanders (16): an odd, anxious teenager in patton’s class. pan. like 5′7″ and tiny. adopted by roman after his mom was killed when he was a baby. knows of his birth parents, but he still loves roman as if he were his biological dad. he is super, super sweet and kind, but he has anxiety issues that often lead to him being quiet and shy. he loves to dress in “feminine,” pastel clothings. absolutely in love with patton. like, head over heels. just wants to see that boy happy.

roman sanders (38): virgil’s adoptive father. so, so gay. around logan height. he was raised heavily irish catholic with his twin brother, thomas, by his very loving parents. [REDACTED until part 6]. he’s deaf, but he’s able to communicate through sign language and lip reading, and he can verbalize pretty well. loves his brother, nephew, and son so, so much, as well as his best friend, emile, and his son, dc. he works as a therapist.

thomas sanders (38): roman’s twin brother. could be gayer... also around logan height. he’s a chemical engineer-slash-actor. he had his son, remy, with his now ex-wife, who he is still very close with. he didn’t realize that he was gay until after remy was born, but... he isn’t the only one.

remy sanders (17): virgil’s cousin/roman’s nephew/thomas’ son. gay. half vietnamese, half irish. giant. like, 6′4″ giant. extremely intelligent and athletic. he’s played hockey since he was a little kid because he enjoyed hitting the ball around (and the other kids), and because he was in a huge rival with dc picani. he’s the definition of “string bean” body-wise. he was held back junior year due to depression-induced slacking off, so he has to retake it instead of being allowed to be a senior like was supposed to be. he has a giant crush on dc, but he hates to acknowledge it--especially now that he flunked a grade and dc won their stupid rivalry.

kim nguyen (38): thomas’ ex-wife/remy’s mom. super lesbian. vietnamese. as i said earlier, thomas was not the only one to realize they were not straight until remy. she is the sweetest woman on earth (although, she would say that her wife is). super supportive of remy and virgil and thomas and roman. she’s just... supportive of everyone, tbh. she takes remy on the weekends, and she lives a few towns over with her wife. she and thomas were high-school sweethearts who ended up getting married and settling down before the a-gay-kening happened.

emile picani (38): thomas and roman’s best friend since college. still unsure of his sexuality and gender, but he knows that he's at the very least transmasc! maybe genderfluid? we don’t know babey!!! 6′ even. this man is just so energetic all the time. he’s a huge sweetheart to everyone, and he cares maybe a bit too much about people. he works as a school psychologist. he adopted dc as a baby, and he loves that kiddo so darn much. he never let his childish side fade, which works both to his detriment and favor.

dc picani (17): emile’s son. somewhere on the gay spectrum, also possibly a demi-boy? who knows! not dc, that’s for sure. he’s got heterochromia and a large birthmark that covers most of the left side of his face. so, so smart and athletic. he’s a badass gymnast, and he enjoys art, and he likes learning. he doesn’t really know how his and remy’s rivalry started, but it did, and it never really stopped until remy was held back. he misses the time he spent with remy--even if it was a bit antagonistic. absolutely does not have a crush on remy, duh. can get mad really easily if you push his buttons too much.

[demidemilitclub]

actually bro do you have some advice on figuring if you're aro/ace or demi/demi if you haven't experienced attraction yet

That’s where it gets a bit nebulous and personal. Being demi/demi can vary from person to person, e.g. time frames for developing the attraction, so it can be hard to say.

My primary piece of advice would be to not worry about immediately pushing yourself into one identity or the other. It’s ok if it takes time because sometimes it does. Reflect on your feelings and your past experiences, and choose only what you’re comfortable with. If you lean demi/demi, that’s great! If you feel more aro/ace, splendid!

In terms of like, trying to “predict” if you’re one or the other, the biggest factor is patience. Demi timelines can be very fickle. So far, it takes me anywhere between 6 months to 1 year to develop The Connection™ and the accompanying attraction. However, the two samples I pull from were very different relationships to start with, and both were affected by various factors. It all depends on how you meet the person, in what capacity do you hold each other/spend the most amount of time (are you classmates, co-workers, friends of a mutual friend, etc.), do you think you would want to develop a relationship with them? The list goes on. Additionally, just because it happened with one person doesn’t mean it’ll happen with everyone. That’s one of the things that makes demi unique. It’s not like “I fall for all of my friends once I have known them for ___ time.” And I know I, and maybe other demis, will use time a lot when talking about The Connection™, but for me, time is an important factor. Yeah, I can have a deep heart-to-heart conversation with someone I just met if we’re in a discussion group or something, but even then, I tend to hold back a lot. Additionally, just the concept of having only known someone for such a period of time kind of puts me off.

Speaking of, repulsion/neutrality/favor can potentially be used as a demi/demi vs. aro/ace gauge. For example, I’ve noticed that I tend to be a bit sex and romance repulsed when it comes to my own self (meaning, general displays or conversations or other people don’t always put me off or affect me in any way). If I think about myself in a romantic or sexual situation with someone, it can help me check to see whether or not I have any underlying Connection™ to them or anything that just hasn’t clicked yet. By and large, when I think about myself with strangers in a theoretical sense, I quickly get uncomfortable and not interested. When I think about myself with strangers in a “this could be a possibility” (like for example, I might have to kiss them in a scene or something), it becomes a much stronger lack of comfort, almost like there’s a stone in my stomach. My heart starts beating uncomfortably strong, I want to throw up, and I am not looking forward to it. When I think about myself with good friends or something, I feel kind of comfortable doing a scene with them (I know them, I feel comfortable talking about it beforehand and laying ground rules and boundaries), but would not want to develop any kind of romantic/sexual relationship with them. If you have a sort of baseline feeling about romance/sex you can work off of and then say “Theoretically, how would this change if I knew a person like this?”

That’s really the main bits of advice I can give you. It’s one of those weird things where you can ask other people and find advice in the commonalities, but it is ultimately so unique and personal that you’re the only person who can determine for sure.

I hope this is helpful, and I wish you the best of luck in your life! Let me know if you have any other questions or need me to clarify anything. (It’s like, midnight thirty, and I’ve had a long day, and I tend to ramble a lot about the stuff I’m passionate about/when I’m giving advice/when I’m talking about something personal, so I’m well aware that all things considered, I could be writing nothing but gibberish)

[ace-discourse-resource]

Two prominent examples of aces denying the existence of ace homophobia and turning a blind eye at the harmful sentiments of their community. 

A quick check at the ‘ace homophobia’ tags within this blog and within tumblr would show them what they are looking for, but they are quick to deny its existence (”not a single one”) before doing any prior research. 

This blog has been blocked by the two parties and therefore cannot reblog for posterity. However, screenshots exist.

Transcripts under the cut.

closeonmarksnosedive:

a-polite-melody:

So, I’ve seen a lot of exclusionists going on and on about how there are asexual people saying they’re uncomfortable with all PDA at pride. But I’ve seen absolutely no asexual people making posts to that nature. It really seems as if someone decided to either make up this problem or take the existence of one or two posts and blow it up to some enormous and widespread problem, and other people saw those posts made by that someone and thought it is a widespread problem even though there are very few asexual people actually saying that - to the point where I still haven’t seen a single one, while having seen a couple dozen or so posts about this “huge problem.”

honestly, this all stems from the discourse a while ago about sex-repulsed and romance-repulsed people taking part on lgbtqia+ spaces.

the debate was originally about accommodating ace, aro, and traumatized folks who were uncomfortable with pda - often for perfectly valid reasons - in safe spaces, while also accommodating people who sought those spaces as a refuge, who were unable to publicly display their affection to each other elsewhere because they weren’t out, or were in dangerous home/work/personal environments.

i think that the consensus was that this should be handled on a case-by-case basis. essentially… like any other trigger.

i haven’t seen a single person complaining about pda at pride, nor do i think that’s a serious discussion that’s happened. i think some people who deeply misconstrued the original debacle (which was, essentially, about triggers) just anticipated it bleeding into pride month, and started complaining about it before they even had any evidence that it was happening. and then it didn’t happen. and now they look like hatemongers.

i really cannot stress enough that this debate is not even really just about aces and aros, nor does it apply to every ace/aro person. not every ace/aro person is sex- or romance-repulsed! and plenty of otherwise lgbtq+ people ARE repulsed by those things, or triggered by pda specifically, because of their own personal history.

this has been giving me a huge headache because it’s the same misunderstanding that’s made the whole “bars vs cafes” discourse so toxic. there are lgbtqia+ people who need spaces that are alcohol-free, spaces that do not contain sexual undertones, spaces where they will not be hit on, etc etc.

no one was saying that gay bars were any more sexual than any other bar. that’s just realistically what a bar scene is like. it’s a place where people go to relax, indulge in alcohol (and possibly other substances), and be social. people often go to bars to hook up. that’s not specific to gay bars. not one person was saying “get rid of gay bars”; they were saying “lets diversify the spaces that we congregate, so that no one is left without a community” and those words were twisted.

this is the same situation.

i’m not sure where this misconception that ace and aro people all unanimously dislike pda. that’s never been true in any ace or aro space (online or off) that i’ve been a part of. in my city, there’s an ace specific group that marches in the pride parade every year.

the people getting overly aggressive towards the imagined threat of ace people trying to like.. “censor” pride, or whatever it is they’re trying to insinuate, just need to calm down and enjoy pride. they will almost 100% not find a single person at their local pride events who remotely behaves this way.

i can’t even understand the logic here, tbh. pride events are notoriously rowdy events, that people attend specifically to enjoy being queer in public. pda is a given at an event like this. if someone is too triggered by those things, they just won’t attend.

(and besides, it’s not like there aren’t other parts of pride that they can focus on if they do choose to attend. parades, live entertainment, and vendor browsing are all things i enjoy at pride, which have nothing to do with pda)

the thing i do see people complaining about pride is unsolicited kissing, groping, etc, which you’d have to be a terrible person to deliberately NOT address in favor of shitting on ace attendees.

because it’s definitely not just ace people who dislike outright sexual harassment.

it’s very tiresome that everyone is framing these issues through the lens of “ace/aro people don’t belong, that’s why they’re uncomfortable” because that’s literally not true. the issues that were talking about are harmful to a much wider range of people - particularly victims of trauma and abuse - and deserve to be addressed, for the safety of everyone.

tl;dr, nobody is complaining about pda at pride, calm tf down.

[thephantomprojectionist]

Film Face-Off: Deadly Target (1994) Vs. White Tiger (1996)

While re-watching some of my movies in search of something to review, I realized how strikingly similar 1994’s Deadly Target and 1996’s White Tiger appear to be. Both are pretty good vehicles from Gary Daniels’ solo career, and seemingly by coincidence, they have the same plot. This realization and the provisional quality of the films makes me want to try something new and turn this would-be review into a competitive comparison between the two. Should be fun, right?

Know now that this article’s almost exclusively for the Gary Daniels fans out there. Few casual viewers will have seen both features, but hey, we’re all about niches here at B-Movie Dragons.

First, some background. Deadly Target is a PM Entertainment production, and while not the first starring picture for Gary Daniels, it’s his first solo vehicle that’s actually good. Indeed, it wasn’t until PM gave him this nudge that the prettyboy kickboxer from London became Gary friggin’ Daniels. Just a couple years afterwards, he was working on a Hong Kong feature when the production went broke and was bought out by the Canada-based Keystone Pictures company. Keystone scrapped the existing footage and did away with the storyline, committing themselves to a completely different movie called White Tiger, which inexplicably ended up being very similar to Daniels’ aforementioned feature. There’s no evidence that this was actually their intention, but there’s no denying the parallels.

Now, let’s look at which version of this adventure did it better.

The Story

In both features, a law enforcement agent seeks to capture a rogue member of the Chinese-American mafia who’s killed the hero’s partner en route to distributing an addictive narcotic on the West Coast. In both cases, the hero is aided by a love interest and the final showdown takes place on a docked ship.

The overriding difference between the two is how seriously the story takes itself. As tends to be the case with PM productions, Deadly Target is lighthearted with a noticeable comedic streak. It’s a popcorn flick despite never having seen the inside of a theater. Contrarily, White Tiger is far too serious to have much fun with itself. It goes for drama over laughs, and even when there is some humor, it’s dry or ironic. Merely considering this, I prefer the former. While I can see some viewers being bored by Deadly Target’s 90s-style cheesiness, it’s the same cheese which gives the story texture and an organic quality that White Tiger lacks. That said, White Tiger invests you more in its characters. While not the most skillfully-written action feature, it knows what it’s going for and does a good job of directing viewers’ emotions. Deadly Target’s characters are established as soon as they appear onscreen, but White Tiger’s tend to not show their cards right away. There’s development here, and it’s not just limited to the leads. The movie wants you to think about characters’ motivations, and it’s ambitious enough to try and surprise the audience at intervals with out-of-nowhere twists. Wisely, it doesn’t overplay its hand: though it liberally sprinkles the thriller aspects,  it never forgets that we’re expecting an action movie and makes sure to avoid pretentiousness. To that end, it wins me over. Deadly Target may be more fun, but White Tiger gives me more to write about. It’s a pretty good movie with which to introduce newcomers to Gary Daniels, whereas Deadly Target is mainly for established B-movie audiences.

Point: White Tiger

The Hero

Gary Daniels wasn’t the greatest actor at this point in his career and his starring roles sort of blend together. Such is the case when you compare these movies: he’s Detective Charles Prince in Deadly Target and Agent Mike Ryan in White Tiger, and they seem like merely different takes on the same character. The major difference between them is that Charles seems to have more fun with his life-or-death mission, taking the time to crack jokes and express interest in other things while Mike pursues his target with uniform intensity. You can see practically Charles in an early scene of White Tiger while the hero’s vacationing with his partner’s family, and Mike seems to pop up in Deadly Target whenever he’s faced with the lead villain.

When it comes to their motivations, Mike is a little easier to empathize with. Charles mentions that the villain killed his (first) partner, but with Mike, you not only see this happen but also experience his investment in his partner’s family. This favors White Tiger, and it doesn’t help that Charles seems to have some sort of unspoken homophobia going on…but despite that, I give the point to Deadly Target. For all his shallowness, Charles is simply more likable. Gary Daniels turns in a better dramatic performance for Mike, but he’s just not interesting enough to make his relentless seriousness worthwhile. Charles is an example of Daniels having fun with a role, and in this case, it wins him the category.

Point: Deadly Target

The Villain

A hero is only as impressive as their adversary, and in both cases, Gary Daniels draws a good card for a bad guy: Byron Mann as Chang in Deadly Target and Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa as Victor Wong in White Tiger. Mann and Tagawa are both acclaimed performers who, despite having predominantly acted in other genres, are generally known for playing martial artists – Mann in Street Fighter: The Movie and Tagawa in Mortal Kombat. Both are versatile actors who swing between low-budget and Hollywood-grade productions with ease, bringing class to both while keeping their dignity intact. For both movies, they elevate the production and help legitimize Gary Daniels with their presence.

That said, I’m more impressed by Cary in this instance. Part of it’s just that his character’s written with greater nuance, but he also just has the stronger presence. It helps that this role goes against type for him, so that he’s not depicting an upright sentinel for a change. He starts off like that, but within minutes you get the impression that Victor Wong would be more at home in The Silence of the Lambs than Showdown in Little Tokyo. By the time the movie reaches its climax, Victor has become a self-destructive freak, single-handedly justifying the film’s drug & fire motif. Comparatively, Mann doesn’t have much going for him other than that he’s obviously having fun. Byron manifests the tone of the screenplay perfectly, but his character sometimes goes absent long enough for me to almost forget he’s the bad guy. Given his youth, Mann may seem like the more obvious choice for an underworld renegade who’s upsetting the established order, but Tagawa stands out thanks to Victor’s greater depth. (Also, he has a fight scene with Gary Daniels, which Mann doesn’t.)

Point: White Tiger

The Love Interest

Please forgive the condescension this label implies, but in both movies, the most prominent female character is largely defined by her relationship with the hero. Nevertheless, Susan Byun’s Diana Tang and Julia Nickson’s Jade are uniquely different characters that lend differing tones to their features. Diana is a warm-hearted person who, despite working in a casino owned by a mob boss, leads a pretty sheltered life. Jade spends much of her movie being an enigma, clearly knowing more than she’s letting on. Diana wants to get intimate with Charles because she feels genuinely attracted to him, whereas Jade is a femme fatale who nudges Mike along and has sex with him only to further a personal agenda. Also, Jade is infinitely more in touch with her Hong Kong heritage while Diana is utterly Americanized and initially repulsed when Charles prepares her a “Chinese delicacy” with squid.

As for who earns the point, it comes down to how they fare in the face of danger, and there’s really no question. Diana introduces herself by clubbing an attacker in the head to rescue Charles and later goes on to have two unexpected fight scenes. Susan Byun becomes a temporary action hero despite her character’s conventions, but Julia Nickson ironically fares worse. White Tiger spends much time building Jade up as an experienced assassin, but when the need for her to make a move arises, she’s instantly overwhelmed and becomes a damsel without really having accomplished anything. For both of these characters, they end up doing the exact opposite of what you’d expect, but only Diana benefits from it. It’s a cheap move on the part of White Tiger’s writers to ultimately demean their character this way, and in this instance, it costs them.

Point: Deadly Target

The Supporting Cast

Which set of supporting characters you end up preferring is largely dependent on what tone you favor, as all the performers do a good job reflecting the mood of their picture. Again, there are many parallel roles that are merely played differently. Portraying the hero’s partner is Ken McLeod in Deadly Target and Matt Craven in White Tiger: martial arts-practicing straight man and tragic best buddy. Both police captains are played by award-winning TV actors: colic-y Max Gail (Barney Miller) and the reserved Philip Granger (Neon Rider). The most visible mafia lord is played by the expressive Aki Aleong in the first film and the graceful Dana Lee in the other. Both feature henchman extraordinaire Ron Yuan as the villain’s lieutenant, but he’s only a fully-fledged character in Deadly Target. Last but not least are the roles good ol’ George Cheung plays: he’s a mafia figure with no lines in the first picture, and one of the more interesting co-stars in the second.

If there was nothing else to consider, I’d happily decree this category a draw, but the deciding factor ends up being the amplitude of supporting fighters in Deadly Target. It’s a cool lineup: Leo Lee, Al Leong, James Lew, Randall Shiro Ideishi, and Koichi Sakamoto all have at least one highlighted altercation, and the late Master Bill Ryusaki plays one of the more active henchmen. Lieutenant Lydia Look – along with her stunt double, Olympian taekwondoka Dana Hee – has a couple of surprisingly good fights against Susan Byun. By comparison, White Tiger doesn’t bother highlighting many of its supporting kickers, and that seals it for me.

Point: Deadly Target

The Production

In addition to the filmmakers’ talent, the quality of a movie’s production is a matter of time and budget, and it’s easy to tell which of these films had more. As I’ve mentioned, Deadly Target is a PM Entertainment film, and while PM was great at maximizing its resources and cranking out exciting B-movies, it’s obvious that these are, in fact, B-movies. Deadly Target’s no exception: the locations are unremarkably urban, the cinematography is staid, the camerawork isn’t dynamic, and even the film quality is a little grainy. Director Charla Driver – one of the few women to direct a PM production and one of the few women to direct a U.S. martial arts feature, period – is every bit as good as her cohorts at putting together a compact and entertaining action package, but there’s no opportunity for it to rise above that status.

White Tiger, on the other hand, may easily be mistaken for a Hollywood production. Keystone Pictures would actually produce a couple of those shortly after this one, which in retrospect seems like a warm-up exercise for director Richard Martin. The movie showcases some exotic locations, has a lot of good-looking sets, and actually has the time to do fun stuff with its camera. The musical stings are almost comically overdone at times, but the soundtrack still stands out where its adversary’s is forgettable. The movie generates mixed results when trying to be artsy but still has the finesse to qualify as a neo-noir. Whereas both features are by-the-numbers in their own way, White Tiger is simply more lavish and thereby pulls ahead.

Point: White Tiger

The Action

In a way, this is the most important category. Action pieces and fight scenes are the backbone of any martial arts feature, and with a star as capable as Gary “Danger Man” Daniels in the lead, both productions knew they had the potential to make a minor action classic. To help get them there, both selected fantastic coordinators to get the job done: Deadly Target had Jeff Pruitt and White Tiger had the late, great Marc Akerstream.

Pruitt was an exotic regular of the TV and DTV realms from 1991 to 2003. As the first American member of the Japan-based Alpha Stunts team, his cohorts and he brought a dynamic, stunt-heavy style of action to the small screen. Though best known for working on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, Jeff regularly got career-defining performances out of the performers he directed, particularly DTV golden boy Jeff Wincott. Deadly Target was the first (and thus far only) time Pruitt collaborated with Gary Daniels, and the Hong Kong veteran works well with the style of his handler. No slouch either is Akerstream, whose career highlight may have been working with Jackie Chan by coordinating the vehicle that gained JC fame in America: Rumble in the Bronx. Though he tended to work in low-budget fare, he coordinated several times in Hollywood blockbusters and did a ton of work for TV. Tragically, an accident on the set of The Crow: Stairway to Heaven ended his life in 1998.

White Tiger may actually be Marc’s magnum opus as an action filmmaker, as he delivers some strong pieces without being relegated by a higher-placed coordinator. Though this is primarily a martial arts movie, it mixes things up with some vehicle scenes and shootouts. Deadly Target does this as well, but White Tiger has a flair in that regard that the former can’t top, especially when it comes to the well-choreographed scenes with the biker assassins. Still, Gary Daniels’ fight scenes are the highlights of the picture, and what highlights they are! The brawls dig deep into Daniels’ real-life abilities, featuring not only a plethora of spinning kicks but also aikido throws and intricate kung fu exchanges. A showdown with Ron Yuan is pretty cool, and the final match with Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa is a very decent brawl.

However, the increased production standards ultimately work against White Tiger via over-editing. While not horrible, the fight scenes are filled with cuts and slow motion that tries to fool you into thinking that the brawls are even better than they already are. Gary Daniels isn’t some inexperienced Ken doll with shortcomings that need disguising, so the editing tricks are facetious. Deadly Target’s fights have no such problems, with their long takes and limited slow motion. Though Jeff Pruitt’s heavy usage of throws and flips may seem excessive to some, the fact is that his film’s simply less restrained in showcasing physicality. While I understand that White Tiger’s action may simply be a matter of stylistic consistency, Deadly Target’s greater willingness to show a fight junkie like me everything its performers have to offer puts it over its competition.

Point: Deadly Target

The Winner: Deadly Target

Deadly Target (1994) Directed by Charla Driver (assistant director for Ice Cream Man) Written by James Adelstein, Michael January (To Be the Best) Starring Gary Daniels, Susan Byun (Sgt. Kabukiman N.Y.P.D.), Ken McLeod (College Kickboxers), Byron Mann Cool costars: Ron Yuan, Aki Aleong (Farewell to the King), Lydia Look (Battle of the Damned), Philip Tan (Martial Law), Master Bill Ryusaki (Ulterior Motives), George Cheung (First Blood II), Al Leong (Rapid Fire), Leo Lee (The Perfect Weapon), James Lew (Balance of Power), Randall Shiro Ideishi (Black Scorpion), Koichi Sakamoto (Bounty Tracker), Butch Togisala (Firepower) Content warning: Violence against women, kidnapping, police brutality Copyright PM Entertainment Group / Echo Bridge Home Entertainment

White Tiger (1996) Directed by Richard Martin (Air Bud: Golden Receiver) Written by Bey Logan (original story), Gordon Melbourne (Bulletproof Heart), Roy Sallows, Don Woodman, Raul Inglis (uncredited) Starring Gary Daniels, Cary Hiroyuki-Tagawa, Julia Nickson (Noble House), Matt Craven (Crimson Tide) Cool costars: Ron Yuan, George Cheung, Dana Lee (Dr. Ken) Content warning: Violence against women, torture, sexual assault Copyright Keystone Pictures / Crown Media