My latest Shadow of the Erdtree theory:
Could Messmer the Impaler have been partially inspired by Cú Chulainn and his spear, the Gáe Bulg, from Irish mythology?
This will be a long post with a lot of heavy speculation so buckle up!
According to the Táin Bó Cúailnge via Wikipedia (which I apologize for using as a source; I don't know much about this topic and other results seemed untrustworthy or were behind paywalls), the spear Gáe Bulg was made from a sea monster's bone, and it "entered a man's body with a single wound, like a javelin, then opened into thirty barbs. Only by cutting away the flesh could it be taken from that man's body."
Which brings me to this iconic moment in the trailer:
Although the thing impaling this person doesn't look like Messmer's spear, it looks like it may have impaled them similarly to how the Gáe Bulg is described: spear-style, with extra barbs erupting out of it afterwards. I'm not sure how the living corpse in the trailer would have kept their head and body somewhat intact unless the barbs extended from the central spike after the impaling happened. Although it doesn't look like this was done with Messmer's spear, this gruesome injury's similarity to what the Gáe Bulg was said to do makes me think it's worth mentioning.
In some versions of the legend, the Gáe Bulg had seven heads with seven barbs each. Thus it may be worth noting that Messmer's spear has 6-7 metal barbs (depending on the angle and whether you count the spear point as one) formed by its fire design:
And, right after the trailer's scene of the impaled corpse, Messmer is shown to have an attack where he stabs the floor with his spear and a bunch of identical spears erupt from the ground around it, which is another slight similarity to the Gáe Bulg's multiplicity.
Now onto the even more speculative part of this theory...
Messmer and Shadows
We know Empyreans in Elden Ring are given guard dog-like Shadows to be their guardians: Ranni has Blaidd, and Marika has Maliketh. However, Malenia and Miquella are both Empyreans, and we are given no information about their Shadow(s), a significant absence in the lore and a topic which has been given much discussion in Elden Ring spaces I've participated in.
There has also been extensive theorizing about Messmer's place in the lore, with his red hair and M initial leading many to believe he may be another of Marika and Radagon's children, alongside Malenia and Miquella.
While learning about the Gáe Bulg spear, I learned its owner, the mythical warrior hero Cú Chulainn, "gained his better-known name as a child, after killing Culann's fierce guard dog in self defence and offering to take its place until a replacement could be reared," after which he obtained his well-known spear (Wikipedia).
With this and my prior speculation about Messmer's spear and lineage in mind, this makes me wonder: did Messmer kill Malenia and Miquella's Shadow(s), and possibly become their replacement himself (whether he later defected from that position or not)?
It may be notable to mention again here that the DLC's title is "Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree" and Messmer features prominently on its cover. Considering Shadow characters are an important part of Elden Ring's lore, with Blaidd being crucial to the game's most popular ending and Maliketh being necessary to defeat to complete the game, I wouldn't put it past the Elden Ring team to give the word a double meaning here: shadows meaning literal darkness as shown in the trailer, and Shadow meaning an Empyrean's guardian.
On the other hand, of course, Messmer with all his various heretical symbolism (fire, snakes, etc.) seems to exist in opposition to the Erdtree, so if the DLC title is referring to him, him being called the Shadow of the Erdtree doesn't make much sense lore-wise.
In conclusion:
There are no conclusions yet, really! Everything I'm theorizing here is based on a lot of speculation and vague connections. There are contradictions in the Gáe Bulg's lore itself, too (such as how it "had to be made ready for use on a stream and cast from the fork of the toes" [Wikipedia], something Messmer is definitely not doing in the trailer—although, since Fromsoft decided to give so many of their character models toe articulation and Messmer's toes are out, this could be a very funny way to make use of that). On the other hand, since Fromsoft very rarely takes inspiration 1:1 from existing mythology, I still think it's possible Messmer was influenced by it even if it doesn't fit his known lore with 100% accuracy.
I welcome thoughts/theories expanding on or contradicting this, especially from anyone who knows more about Irish mythology than me! I do not know too much about Cú Chulainn's story or this mythos in general, so I'm sure there's a lot of notable information I missed.
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@intimate-mirror
a lot of the scholarship, like a lot of english department scholarship in general, is really bad and makes stupid assumptions
@tanadrin some things I've seen are 1. criterion of embarrassment used effectively in a negative way where all claims that are not embarrassing are labeled as probably false 2. "these are written in different styles, so they have to have different authors" I'm exaggerating a bit, but only a bit.
point 2 here is a drastic oversimplification of the documentary hypothesis. it's not just that the different sources use different words for god (although that on its own is interesting), it's that you can separate these sources, and get distinct stories with their own beginnings, middles, and ends that don't have the problems of the original texts (confused details, repeated episodes, out-of-context scenes), and their own governing thematic concerns. moreover, there are pretty specific hypotheses for why the sources would have been combined in the way they are, based on the material constraints on the production of ancient scrolls.
liane feldman, for instance, has a complete translation of P ("The Consuming Fire: The Complete Priestly Source from Creation to the Promised Land") and in her interview with dan mcclellan on his podcast she talks about how it is effectively a complete text. now, obviously, there are details of the documentary hypothesis that are debated--i think the traditional four-source version is considered out of date by some scholars, who instead argue for two or three sources onto which other elements gradually accreted that were never a standalone text themselves--but the scholarship is way more sophisticated than "these passages are in a slightly different style, and therefore they must have different authors." these are theories that produce pretty specific and coherent claims, and even if they're by and large not testable in the sense we have very ancient sources we can consult directly (outside of the occasional find like the Dead Sea Scrolls), they're testable in the sense that you can marshal specific points of evidence for and against them and make reasonable judgements based on the balance of probability.
a lot of points of textual criticism do dovetail with other disciplines like archeology, comparative mythology, historical linguistics, etc. so i think it's either disingenuous or ignorant to paint textual criticism as operating in a kind of methodological vacuum and proceeding entirely on nebulous suppositions.
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A detail I noticed about Feast
Feast (S3E15) is a very important episode for many reasons: it gives us Fu's backstory and origins of the miracle box, it hammers home the element of emotions when creating sentibeings, it restores the Tibetan temple and causes a chain reaction that is relevant later in the series (namely with Su Han), Mayura is there... but I rewatched it recently and I noticed a detail near the end that I believe to be foreshadowing.
At the end of Feast, our heroes defeat the sentimonster by entering it and cataclysm-ing Fu's staff with the amuk in it. Once Ladybug casts her Miraculous Ladybug and returns the world to normal, the Guardian Temple reappears and we can see the news reporting on it:
As the news is reporting on the temple, a few people can be seen watching (or listening). Those would be Gabriel and Nathalie, Tomoe, Alya, and Audrey Bourgeois.
Gabriel and Nathalie makes sense. They are Hawkmoth and Mayura, after all-- and Gabriel used the peacock with Emilie to create Adrien. Tomoe again is understandable, as she is a close ally to Hawkmoth and possibly used the peacock miraculous to create Kagami (which is all but confirmed in canon at this point.) And Alya herself is the catalyst for this episode's events: she brings Marinette to the Louvre where the dormant sentimonster is, shows Marinette her findings about the guardian symbol, and publishes those findings on her Ladyblog which HM & Mayura then discover. She's also a Miraculous holder too.
Now, why is Audrey watching the news? From a meta standpoint there's no need to show her in this scene since she isn't of the same importance that the others are. Hell, Audrey wasn't even in this episode before then. Even if her daughter is a Miraculous holder, Audrey has no reason to be interested in the Temple...
...unless, of course, she has some connection to the Miraculous.
As an aside... I'm not sure exactly what this means. If Audrey used the peacock to create Chloe like many believe, surely Audrey or Andre would've fallen ill like predecessors Emilie and Colt did. You could argue that she used the peacock miraculous to create Zoe as we've never seen Zoe's dad and aren't sure he's even alive, but considering this was in season 3 before Zoe was even introduced to us I have my doubts to believe this was the intent. Or maybe there's some unseen third option that I don't know about.
Regardless, this seems like pretty obvious foreshadowing to me. Even if this ends up going nowhere it's interesting to recontextualize it knowing everything that we know now. I don't think we've seen the last of Chloe or of her family quite yet (even if the writers want us to think we have.)
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