#anti jon stans

[katerina-q]

Posts like this confirms that the so-called Jon's stans didn't understand shit about this character as much as Kit Harington

Hilarious

[sayruq]

i dont think key fivers were afraid of sansa of course fandom toxicity ramped up as the season went on and post show but its probably because the show whitewashed a lot of characters and their conflict like tyrion both because they were favourite character by the showrunners and the show wanted generic conflict instead of complexity and many characters and arcs got cut because of it, this turned fandom into thinking key 5 didnt mean "characters who affect the story good or bad depending on point of view" but turned into "the key 5 are heroes that'll save the day against the others and have a happy ending" by season 5/6

sansa was mostly ignored or victim blamed even by book fans before the show exept by a few so i dont know what they really thought her story was gonna be by the end but the show made it worse by not giving her enough nuance even in the early seasons and while diverging her arc pretty badly, it had her in a position of leadership, this pushed the idea in BROAD strokes that might be explained better in the books that her character did matter so i guess it did ruffle some feathers of theorists that didnt think about her all these years and a lot of there theories were proven wrong in the end

I'm telling you it's to exclude Sansa. The whole point is to 'prove' that she's not a main character and won't be involved in the final war(s) of the books. I've seen it with my own eyes.

GRRM himself said he was mostly pulling shit out of his ass with that outline and most people moved on from it once the novelty wore off but a contingent of antis saw it as all the evidence they need that Sansa won't

help free Winterfell from the Boltons

play a part in the fight against the Others

play a part in the war between Aegon vs Daenerys

have a romance with Jon (I don't ship Jonsa but you can't deny that a big part of Key Fiver is the idea that Sansa isn't important enough for a romance with Jon unlike his aunt and other sister

rule the North as Lady of Winterfell or Queen

And I have to disagree, while many people ignored all the signs pointing to Sansa becoming a big player in the game of thrones, they didn't ignore Sansa as a character at all.

I also get where you're coming from but the idea that Jon, Dany and Tyrion (with help from Bran and maaaaaaaaybe Arya - the idea that she'd become some sort of Batman in the Riverlands with her army of wolves was more popular than the idea she'd play a role in fighting the Others which is why D&D chose her specifically to deliver the killing blow) was there before we got the outline. Key Fivers just absorbed it into their DIY lore.

[alsethwisson]

Catelyn: 'Jon being a bastard raised with his trueborn siblings will cause him to be bitter, resentful, and aspire to more because of said resentment which could hurt my children.'

Jon in his POVs: *is resentful and feels entitled to Cat's love, and is bitter because he will never have the Stark name or Winterfell*

So....Cat was completely right about Jon and fandom still comes for her because she didn't sufficiently mother her husband's supposed affair baby. LOL. Typical.

Cat was wrong when she presumed Jon would usurp her kids. On the other hand, he won't usurp their right mostly to prove Cat wrong...

By the by, funniest thing is, even if Cat somehow came to love Jon -it's possible, if not probable - nothing much would've changed for him apart from our fave sullen boi getting a proper mother figure.

Because no amount of motherly love can make a bastard into a trueborn, that's the sad reality of their life. Cautious glances when he bests Robb, "you can't be the lord of Winterfell", sitting with the servants - all that has nothing to do with Cat and everything with societal norms.

Were he called "brother" by Sansa or "son" by Cat, but still not allowed to wear Stark colours, would it be easier for him? I don't think so.

Jon is a teenager and he doesn't have the apparatus to blame society. He can't blame Ned, because Ned was his loving parent and blaming a loving parent doesn't come easily. So he puts all the blame on Catelyn. And because many people in the fandom have emotional maturity and reading comprehension of a bitter teenager, we have what we have.

[agentrouka-blog]

Reading your anti Jon posts today has made me furious all over again. Jon shouldn’t be with the Free Folk because a man who kneels and grovels to a tyrant doesn’t share values with people who follow the man not a title. Tormund doesn’t even know that Jon was in love with the mass murderer and gave his people’s freedom away for nothing. As far as he knows, he did what Mance wouldn’t and followed Tormund’s advice which was abandon your pride and kneel to save your people. So in the sequel the Free Folk will think of Jon as a hero and Jon will be all humble and the audience will be expected to view him like Tormund does except we know better! It makes me rage that even if I love the cast and the new writers are great, they’ll be operating within a story that isn’t actually what happened and we’ll all be expected to ignore what they turned Jon into it and—

I shouldn’t let rumors about a show that probably won’t happen bother me but all the emotions came flooding back. 😂 Love your blog btw. You always have wonderful insight to offer. 💛

Thank you!! :D

I don't even care how the sequel would try to frame it. I don't see a way to credibly make show!Jon sympathetic again without erasing some part of established show canon. Because show canon is air-tight as far as making Jon inexcusable from every potential angle. There is not one single approach to explain his actions that is not contradicted by another canon fact. No matter which way you turn him, he's a pathetic weasel!

Yes, let's not even think about this show that may not ever even happen. :)

Let's focus on book!Jon. He's cool. He would never.

[alicenttully]

yeah the key five exists. exists for sansa to murder four of them and then get away with it :)

bran is the expection cause he's gonna help her do it :)

[maisiestyle]

"Ned Stark's Precious Little Girl"

Arya is a mix of both her parents. But as her story unfolds, with every new chapter and book, Arya has moved beyond her parents and into a far more dynamic character.

Ned was a role model to Arya, she loved him more than almost anyone (she loves Jon most of all). She holds on to Ned's memory now more than any of his children.

Ned is stubborn, quick to anger, loyal to a fault, and deeply devoted to his family to the point where he sacrificed his honor and died for his children.

Both Arya & Ned had a dislike for Southern culture. Which is double odd considering Ned was fostered in the South: That was never truly his place. Whereas Cat and Sansa are very much creatures made for the South.

Treatment of the smallfolk and not judging those lower than their station... That says a lot about their character, something Ned, Lyanna, Arya & Jon have all shown in the books.

Arya & Ned are similar but different as well. Where Ned was lacking, his ability to not see the truth in the lies around him - Arya has developed beyond that point. Ned was too slow and unyielding until it was too late and he died. Cat was to heedless, prideful, and emotional - that cost her life. At the beginning Arya was a mix of both her parents BUT her journey so far has made her grow and develop where her parents had not. By Book 5, Arya is extremely artful and considerate, patient and willing to face the truth in all its ugliness, adaptable and fluid like water - a changeling. That's how she'll survive where her parents did not.

While Sansa is learning how to flirt, organise a glorified party and remain passive and isolated.

Arya lives out in the open, has escaped death and captivity by her own wits, travelled all over Westeros leaving her memory imprinted on the people she met along the way, and her unyielding desire to never be helpless again which brought her to Braavos. The Sealord of Braavos stood up to a King and his dragons and won - all he did was whisper the "faceless men" and King's Landing yielded - that is true power. Arya will return to Westeros having grown in many ways. But like her father and mother, her family will always be her guiding light.

I love how the Northmen constantly connect Arya to Ned and want to fight for them both:

When White Harbour (a place Arya has visited twice with Ned) hears of "Arya Stark" marrying Ramsay.

“Was ever snow so black?” asked Lord Wyman. “Ramsay took Lord Hornwood’s lands by forcibly wedding his widow, then locked her in a tower and forgot her. It is said she ate her own fingers in her extremity…and the Lannister notion of king’s justice is to reward her killer with Ned Stark’s little girl.” - (Davos, A Dance with Dragons)

~*~

As "Arya" suffers in Winterfell, they connect her to Ned:

"The bride weeps," Lady Dustin said, as they made their way down, step by careful step. "Our little Lady Arya." ... What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl." ...

"Lady Arya's sobs do us more harm than all of Lord Stannis's swords and spears.

~*~

The northmen want to fight for Arya:

“Even ruined and broken, Winterfell remains Lady Arya’s home. What better place to wed her, bed her, and stake your claim? […] Let Stannis march on us. He is too cautious to come to Barrowton…but he must come to Winterfell. His clansmen will not abandon the daughter of their precious Ned to such as you. - (Reek, A Dance with Dragons)

[…]

Lord Arnolf shoved himself up, a vulture rising from its prey. One spotted hand clutched at his son’s shoulder for support. “We’ll take [Winterfell] for Ned and for his daughter.” - (The Sacrifice, A Dance with Dragons)

~*~

"Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue." - (Dance with Dragons)

[rise-my-angel]

I think its funny that technically Jon has "the blood of Old Valyria" in him as well. But if you told him that as if it meant something, you know Jon would dismiss it entierly as unimportant, and that he does not give a single shit about it. Being Valyrian is so integral to someone like Danaerys or really any mainstream Targaryeans identity.

Then you have Jon Snow whose just like "I have things to do, I don't care" literally anytime something tries to convince Jon hes special. He's the opposite of everything Valyrians stand for and it would be so funny if hes the only one with Targaryean blood to survive, so that the last living relic of the ancient Valyrian Freehold is stuck inside the most grouchy, anti prophecy Northerner known to man.

[elena--89]

Joffrey never loved Sansa and he didn't die with her name on his lips, unlike Rhaegar

-Lyanna died with Rhaegar's roses in her hand, something that Sansa would never do with Joffrey's roses or gifts. Lyanna wasn't an hostage, unlike Sansa

-Rhaegar is not portrayed as a monster in the books, unlike Joffrey. It doesn't matter how much you'all are trying to change canon to fit your nonsensical narrative

-Sansa is not a parallel to Lyanna, get over it

-If you want a good parallel with Rhaegar and Lyanna, read Jon and Ygritte's chapters and Bael the Bard tale

-If you want to understand Rhaegar and Lyanna better as characters, read Daenerys and Arya's chapters

Sansa stans, stop talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna, you don't know shit about these two and Grrm will never acknowledge your bullshit

[crimsonbastard]

That's it. I've had it with these brain-dead takes

Rightful Queen:

Firstly, what the fuck do you mean when you say Rightful? There's no "Rightful" monarch in ASOIAF. There are only the ones who are elected as per the laws in which the Realm Functions. So There's only Lawful Queen or Lawful King.

Daenerys: Wasn't the Rightful Queen by blood, but by conquest (mass murdering an entire city that surrendered), but even then, she had contenders to the Throne in the form of her nephew. Her family was deposed through rebellion and they were in exile.

The throne no longer belonged to her unless she forcefully claimed it back. After Robert's death, the crown goes to Stannis, the next in line, followed by Shireen, considering Robert's children aren't his. But since all the legitimate Baratheons died and Gendry wasn't legitimized yet, the Lannisters covertly took the crown by continuing to pose Cersei's children as true borns (the children atleast took after one of the parents, making the argument for their legitimacy somwhat strong, Unlike Rhaenyra).

Daenerys took Kingslanding by force, decimating the city and it's populace with Dragon Fire and seated herself on the Throne. So yes, she has become the Lawful Queen by right of Conquest, all that's left is to eliminate the equally Lawful Contender to the throne, it being Jon.

Rhaenyra: Despite Viserys i (who was the younger of the two candidates, but got elected over Rhaenys who was older than him) naming her as his heir after Aemma's and Baelon's death he never really prepares her to rule in the future. He doesn't teach her the ways of Politics, nor does he reinforce the line of succession. He instead puts his daughter's claim in jeaprody and remarries, and sires THREE LEGITIMATE SONS. As unfair as it sounds, Westeros follows Male Primogeniture, the very system that made Viserys i heir to the throne over Rhaenys. As long as Aegon ii, Aemond and Daeron lived, Rhaenyra would always have challengers to the Throne.

"Half-Blooded" Murderer named Aegon:

Funny how TB thinks just because someone's Half-Targ (half inbred), It automatically makes them less of a claimant to the throne. Paternity goes a long way in Westeros.

Aegon ii is the first born son of King Viserys ii Targaryen and Queen Alicent Hightower. He's the result of a legitimate marriage between two ancient and powerful houses. He was anointed by a Septon of the Faith, crowned with thousands as a witness. As shitty as his character is in the show, he's a more legitimate claimant to the throne compared to Rhaenyra and her illegitimate children.

Jon Snow (Aegon) being confirmed to be R+L=J in the show doesn't make him a "half-blood" by any chance. He's the Son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. The show states that Rhaengar annulled his marriage with Elia Martell, making Jon a "legitimate" (as per TB) contender to the throne.

There's also the implication of the term "half-blooded" used in the post. Just because Jon and Aegon ii are half Targaruen doesn't make them less of a claimant. It also sheds light on the Targaryen Exceptionalism that TB drinks like kool-aid. Anyone who's non-targ or is half-targ and isn't on the Targaryen side is automatically treated as lesser.

[pixiecactus]

i don't ship jonrya (gendrya it's the one for me tbh) but i swear it bothers me so much that people in this fandom like to discard jonrya like something absurd, that really has no foundation in the books (i can only think of one jon's ships that is like this and it's not jonrya let me tell you) when we have time and time again in both of arya and jon's chapters actually shown how they are so devoted to eachother, making one of the strongest bonds in the entire series, even if you don't take the og outline (jonrya endgame) in consideration:

in agot:

"And Arya…he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had…yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him."

and:

"She would have given anything if Jon had been here to call her “little sister” and muss her hair."

in acok:

"When at last she slept, she dreamed of home. The kingsroad wound its way past Winterfell on its way to the Wall, and Yoren had promised he’d leave her there with no one any wiser about who she’d been. She yearned to see her mother again, and Robb and Bran and Rickon . . . but it was Jon Snow she thought of most. She wished somehow they could come to the Wall before Winterfell, so Jon might muss up her hair and call her “little sister.” She’d tell him, “I missed you,” and he’d say it too at the very same moment, the way they always used to say things together. She would have liked that. She would have liked that better than anything."

and:

"As he rode, Jon peeled off his glove to air his burned fingers. Ugly things. He remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. He began to flex his hand, opening and closing the fingers. If he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy, it well might be the end of him, he knew. A man needed his sword beyond the Wall."

their current companions remind them of eachother:

“NO!” Arya and Gendry both said, at the exact same instant. Hot Pie quailed a little. Arya gave Gendry a sideways look. He said it with me, like Jon used to do, back in Winterfell. She missed Jon Snow the most of all her brothers.

and romantic interests too:

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a “spearwife” when they’d captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn’t wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but “spearwife” fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore.

and i want to end with one of my favourite arya's quotes:

“I know where we could go,” Arya said. She still had one brother left. Jon will want me, even if no one else does. He’ll call me “little sister” and muss my hair. It was a long way, though, and she didn’t think she could get there by herself. She hadn’t even been able to reach Riverrun. “We could go to the Wall.”

so... no, the idea of jon x arya is not strange at all actually

[sayruq]

i get your point about the sansa exclusion but also forgot to add that a lot of og theorists were also really REALLY in support of king jon and marriage of ice and fire so any character/theory/plot/scenario that posed a threat to this was hardcore dismissed , the finale and confirmation of bran being king completely shell shocked the fandom theorists so a lot of anger came from that, there were people who had the theory that sansa will get support from the vale to reclaim winterfell but a lot of the time it spiraled into random theories that sansa needed to "find humility" in her arc and was gonna marry the hound in the end(despite him dying) or give up her claim to winterfell to anyone else just....randomly, so exclusion in narrative to fit theorists ideas and other characters were there in the beginning ig but after the outline leak it got worse

I agree. I think it was primarily motivated by exclusion but they had other reasons like thinking it was proof of a Jonerys endgame (or Jonarya if you were particularly delusional).

[am-just-a-bait]

Realistically, if a ship is so irrelevant and you're so sure it won't happen. You'll treat it how Jonsas treat the Sansan shippers. By mostly ignoring them.

Or u could be extra paranoid bc it's very plausible and obsess about it to the point u make parody blogs like Jonsa antis

[fromtheseventhhell]

Why are we always getting described as cartoon villains? The way they swear we're sitting around doing nothing but shit-talking Sansa or hyper-sexualizing Arya is so weird, just making things up so they have an excuse to talk shit about us unprompted 😭

[thelustybraavosimaid]

You're a Jon Stan, right? Do you know any Jon stans who ship Jonsa?

Captain, I'm gonna be honest with you. I don't think those people exist.

[silverflameataraxia]

I know it's been awhile since I've read ASOIAF, but I keep seeing people say that Sansa is the most important person in Jon's life.

I remember Jon thinking about Arya all the time, but I don't recall him thinking about Sansa...ever. I thought the books made it pretty clear that Arya is the most important person to Jon, as he is to her.

Am I missing something from the books?

[katerina-q]

The comparisons between the Hightowers and Targaryens in this fandom are ridiculous because a single ruby on Rhaegar's armor is more relevant than the whole house Hightower.

Hotd brainwashed a lot of people. The Hightowers are not the main characters or the main villains in the MAIN series. They are irrelevant :) Even dead Targaryens are more relevant than them.

Also the Targaryens are still alive and Dany is currently the most powerful character in the series