#anti jonerys slightly

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

I’m sorry but you guys give D&D way too much credit. You really think these idiots went “ok so we’re gonna make Dany leave her hair up and Jon too so people can see their sex is a service and not love.” This is D&D we’re talking about.

Hi, Anon.

Well, short answer: Yes, I do think they did that.

1) when speaking on the GoT commentary, Dan was notoriously obsessed with the tiniest details (which to GA would have seemed inane and not worth their time), to the point where even David would tease him about it. Dan was also the one that allegedly got upset about 8x03's airing and being so dark.

2) Have you seen behind the scenes of the Dany and Sansa scene in 8x02? D&D were directing Emilia on how to gesture to Sansa to sit, even though David Nutter was the credited director of the episode. This once again, goes in line with the point above.

3) D&D were the ones to convince GRRM to do a show in the first place. He had turned down offers before that. The story is infamous at this point, and GRRM confirmed that one of the reasons he agreed to their pitch is because they had guessed who Jon's real mother was, after going back over the books.

4) They had crew working for them that played into the details like the hair being left up or down. Sophie Turner confirmed that Sansa's hairstyles usually echoed who she was learning from and/or channeling. If you look, you can see at one point in the series for each queen who Sansa learned from/was channeling. Season 8 has Dany-style hair for Sansa even. Michele Clapton, the costume designer, has confirmed that not only did she put little clues into the costumes as much as she could, but that the crew did these types of things knowing full well that people would go back and rewatch the series over and over again, and their goal was for the viewer to find something new each time (a la the books).

5) The show utilized different storytelling devices that many television shows and films use, across the board. That includes different shots and angles, framing, panning, set dec, props, music cues, lighting, costuming, blocking (like when Dany is moved away from fire), actors' performances/notes, editing, and of course, the dialogue/writing. Each one of these examples is present over the course of the series.

Look, I'm not saying that D&D didn't screw things up in the end nor am I defending them nor am I calling them as geniuses, but they both did do some decent work as showrunners at some points during the show. I don't think they were stupid as much as I think their egos grew too massive and got in the way. They literally rushed the last season so they could go make Star Wars which lol they didn't even do. They had started pulling their celebrity friends in for cameos (that had nothing to do with the show or industry at all, I think one of them was an NFL player iirc), and even put themselves into the show (in 8x04 as the widlings Tormund is boasting about Jon to). Some might say, well Taylor Sheridan put himself into Yellowstone or 1883, and they would be right. But the difference is, the characters he embodied worked with the story, and he was an actor before being this highly successful writer. These two simply put themselves into the show because they wanted to be immortalized in this series (and they chose the feast scene of all scenes to do it) and did it in the last season because that's what they were doing with all of their celebrity friend cameos. Getting it in as a last hurrah. Massive. Egos.

So to go back to your point, Anon, yes, I do think they did that to show that Jon was simply giving Dany what she wanted. When you break down the boat sex scene, it's pretty easy to spot what they did there. They are still in the Queen Dany and Bent-the-knee Jon here. Same as in this scene:

If they were in love or just having really great sex but bonding then we would have seen Dany like this:

Or Jon like this:

Especially when you compare it to Dany's love scene with Drogo where she takes control, the seduction scene with Daario where she takes control, and then her pillow talk scene with Daario (photo above).

So yes, Anon, I don't feel that we're giving them too much credit. I do think they absolutely kept in mind that people were going to rewatch the series and find new clues each time, just like they themselves used to do with GRRM's books. Listen, they screwed up in a lot of ways, but as for what they showed with Jon and Daenerys in that boat scene, I don't think they did.

Hope you have a great rest of your day!

[fedonciadale]

This isn't meant to be a personal attack on the J0nerii, but I am legitimately concerned about a lot of them. I can't help but wonder if many of them are going to be able to have healthy relationships if they think a man staring in disgust, discomfort, and dislike is super heart eyes, and a guy staring at the woman he loves is a brotherly gaze...

Dear nonny,

their constant insistance that Sex and love is the same as well as the failure of their app for reading facial expressions is a nuisance sure, but tbh I do not think that their idea about relationships is that wrong. Because they usually come up with headcanons that fix the problematic aspects of Jon€rys : like they are equals (because Dany did totally not demand of Jon to give up his title), he protects her (when we have seen the whole North in uproar and Jon silent) etc. etc. So, I guess they have an idea how it should be if it were a healthy relationship.... And tbh them having somewhat weird ideas about relationships does not hurt anyone but themselves.

What does really concern me though is their tendency to overlook anything bad Dany does / at least some of them. And just for the record. I don't want to generalise, so what I say is based on personal experience and is therefore only true for a part of that fandom.

They fall for the false image of her good heart and do not realise that even a benevolent tyrant is a tyrant (and it is far more likely that said tyrant would lose his benevolence than giving up tyranny). They praise Dany as the one true saviour when this belief in one man / woman who magically solves all the world's problems is very problemaric and dangerous. To believe in the one true saviour even if it is only a fictional figure always gives me the creeps, as does their talk about Targ 'blood purity'. There are people who have 'suprematist' in their handle! And they seem absolutely oblivious to the connotations of 'blood purity' and all that crap.

If our take on literature does reflect our take on politics, I really worry about the people who stan a villain and do not realise it. They remind me of people who fall for the grand gesture or the speach full of vivid pictures that catch the imagination and signify nothing. What does it mean 'break the wheel?' Sounds pretty. But do we go forward with broken wheels?

Honestly, their strange take on romance is weird, but that does not concern me. What concerns me is their lack of political insight and that they do not mistrust saviour figures. Because if they continue to stan such false 'liberators' they might fall for a person like that in real life and politics. And even worse they might vote for these people. And that influences my life - in contrast to them being clueless about relationships.

I really hope that DarkDany will open their eyes and make them think about these problems and wonder how they did not see this. They need to really question their blind belief.

Unfortunately, DarkDany is still not obvious enough for them. They blame the writing etc. I clearly hope for their own sake that things will klick at some point.... My faith in humanity would be restored!

Thanks for the ask!

[winterisfinallyhere]

Game of Thrones 8x02 review

So second re-watch and a little bit of calming down I have slightly better feels for the episode. 

We got some really amazing Bramie moments, Gendry is officially canon!, Dany in a sort of weird way confirmed Political Jon for us and the whole episode kind of showcased everyone connecting with people, with their family. Well everyone but Dany. The Theon + Sansa reunion was super sweet and while I did a momentary freak-out that dxd were going to go for that, I really don’t see why on the second watch. Sansa and Theon are war buddies of sort. Of course they’re gonna be happy to see each other. 

And as it turned out the title was not The Rightful Queen but A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms - which I love! 

That’s actually what I’m going to talk about first this time around! All the things I loved best. Because I feel what I actually enjoyed got kind of lost in my initial thoughts share because I just got so super frustrated by the last-ish scene with DanyxJon.

So the Amazing bits!

First was, of course, the whole Jamie x Brienne interaction from the first one when she defends him in the great hall, him watching her instead of listening to Tyrion and then him asking to fight with her. Then when he knights her. It’s really the best and it’s super amazing and heartbreaking at the same time.

It’s so beautiful and almost better than a freaking wedding and just the more of my babies I see, the more I want them! GIMME GIMME! Seriously, please, let this have a Disney HEA ending! I want Saphire lion cubs running around on Tarth.

Even with these happy dreams in my heart, I got the terrible feeling that Brienne is going to die. No one gets to be truly happy in GoT without paying a price. Then again, usually that happiness comes at the expense of someone else, which this do not. So a bit of hope there...

The Sansa + Dany  (+ Theon) scene

Ohh goodness, this was hands down my favorite none Bramie scene. 

Dany x Sansa chat one-on-one was something on my special wishlist I kind of didn’t even think we’d get. But here we did! And boy was it amaze balls! Dany gets straight to the point with the fact that it’s Jon is a big part of why they’re not BFFs (which they could never be, but moving on) and Sansa twists that around so Dany actually kind of point out it’s her that’s change and done for Jon, not the other way around. Which totally changes Sansa’s tune and we even get a sort of apology. 

Then she asks the big question

 and we see Dany’s reaction (not good) 

(also that D’s had time to paint her nails. very nice.)

Then we get this scene

Theon comes in, knees for Dany, tells them why he’s there and then asks to fight for Sansa. Because he’s here for her, for the Starks, not for Dany.

And it shows on D’s face that she’s not pleased. Not only that, but she’s a little bit jealous and also confused. Because of this history, this bond, is something she totally lacks. She has no connections, no true family. She has followers for sure. She has Jorah who has been with her for so long. But even he has always been her subject. Sansa and Theon love each other as equals because of their shared past and trauma. And he wants to fight for her and the Starks because of that. Because of love and family. That is what Dany lacks. Always have. It’s really very sad when you think about it.

Now on to the Dislike(s)

If any of you caught my first thoughts review, you’ll remember it was basically me bashing Jon Snow for being an idiot for telling Dany who he “really” is. Which I still stand-by. No matter if you’re indifferent to ships, a Jonsa or a Jonerys fan this sucked as a reveal.

Really! Don’t believe me?

If you’re indifferent you’ll be pissed because he just kind of tells her. No drama, no build up, no her overhearing or anything. We don’t get enough time for either one of their emotions to properly show (because we freaking keep getting interrupted every time Dany is talking to someone).

If you’re a Jonsa, this sucked because he told her at all. It’s a real stupid move even if there is another motive. It also sucked because he’s telling Dany rather than Sansa.

If your heart beats for Jon x Dany, this sucked as reveal because this was not the time! They’re about to possibly die. All over people have been telling their loved one that they should go and be safe in the crypt (even though why they think the crypts full of old dead people would be safe, I do not know). But there is none of that. Instead, we get a reveal D & J are related and the first thing she does is suggest it’s not true and then point out he’s the last male heir and got a claim to the iron throne.

I think the only people that liked this is the anti-Jonery and anti-Jonsa folks who also don’t care about Jon being in character. Or anything making sense. So no one?

Basically, this scene sucked and makes very little sense.

Unless you’re going for Max Drama. Which I guess dxd are doing. So I’m just going to go with it and see where it takes us. It’s pretty clear Dany and Jon are worried about different things and it’s going to be interesting to see it play out. I’m assuming it’s all leading us towards Targbowl / Dance of Dragons 0.2 and as long as that happens, I guess I can forgive the weirdness of this actually going down.

Overall...

this episode flowed better than the last one. It was still a little bit too much of “reunions, talking and being broody while waiting for the army of the dead to show up”. Seriously not sure we needed two episodes of that but just like with the Jon + Dany crypt scene I’m gonna try to just trust that dxd put them in there for a freaking reason.

My wish for next weeks episode is that they just get rid of the Night King fast. I don’t want 1 h 20 minutes of battle. I want them to just kill him, all the wights fall down and die (again?) and it’s like “wow, that was easier than expected” and for like two minutes it's all smiling until the real politics of WTF happens now start. Especially with Dany knowing who Jon really is!

That’s really all I care about, not the stupid WW war.

At this point, I don’t even care what they want. I just want them gone so we can get on with actual interesting plotlines. Like who sits on the iron throne, how do we feed everyone, how do we get Cersei her elephants, how do we deal with the dragons, northern independence and who is telling Sam his family was roasted alive Those questions are the questions I actually want answers to.

[adreamofspring-archive]

isn’t it kinda hypocritical to slam an entire fan base and then pretend that you’re the victim?? i have no evidence or even a url of this fake blog supposedly tun by ur tumblr nemesis?

First off, she’s not my nemesis lmao. I don’t care about her remotely enough for you to call her that. She doesn’t deserve the right to be called my ‘nemesis’. I’ve spoken about her maybe 4 times on this blog? and three of them were anons I answered?? lmao. I may not like her but oh my god this isn’t some highschool drama thing. it’s tumblr dot com. nothing is that deep.

I never actually said that it was legit or real though?? The ask said, “it’s rumored...” but oh, you got me! I don’t have actual proof!! I guess I’m a hypocrite :// When I confronted someone who was saying these things about my fellow shippers and I, when I asked them for proof they blocked me. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong and I’m willing to admit that. Considering how much fucking bullshit we put up with from that side of the fandom, it’s totally one hundred and forty percent possible that it happened. I have absolutely every right to be suspicious and every right to be upset about the potential of it happening.

I will admit that I shouldn’t cluster them all together because I know many really great members of that ship, it’s quite difficult not to cluster them together when you’re constantly fighting off anons, anti metas, anti gifsets, and anti posts in our tag, it’s hard to differentiate between the sane ones and the psychotic ones. Myself and many other jonerys shippers have actual proof of members of that fanbase being actually awful human beings to not just Dany stans, but Arya, Jon and Bran ones as well. It’s really easy to find! Just go into ‘anti d*enerys or anti a*ya,’ tag and guess what you’ll find who those people ship! Take a guess!! It’s just SO crazy how that happens!! So yes, I will try not to cluster them together in the future, but there is no promise as the vast majority of who I deal with are somehow miraculously members of that fanbase.

Don’t you think it’s a bit fishy though? Suddenly jonerys people on here are being attacked and blamed by something we didn’t do or have any control over on an entirely different media platform??? I don’t see how that’s fair at all? It’s not playing the victim if you’re actively being attacked for something you didn’t do and had no part in. 

When I confront one of them asking for proof they block me, or they pull something out of their ass like supposedly jonerys shippers hate on Rose Leslie (which I’ve never ever seen in my time in this fandom and is just bullshit lmao) but they didn’t show me any actual proof it being jonerys shippers. With the anons I’ve gotten, and considering my own personal history and knowledge of said person and group in the past, I could totally see it happening. As I said before in my recent post, I don’t know if it’s legit, but do I see it happening? Abso-fucking-lutely.

The real question you should be asking is why is it okay for them to actually come and attack us with literally not a stitch of proof, but I can’t be slightly upset at the idea of it all being a hoax just for them to play the victim again and make us look bad? Do you realize how that sounds? Think about it for just one second. Please. Thank you.

[jonerysquotes]

jonerys fanfic showcase: week two, day four

a wolf at your throat, a dragon at your back by winterbones

this week’s theme: Season 8 fics

suggestion by @meisiesmut

TAGS

Jon Snow Daenerys Targaryen 4k and still not calling him aegon in fact this might be an anti-aegon manifesto fuck rhaegar targaryen tbqh also fuck that ridiculous annulment plot porn with (accidental) plot

SUMMARY

jon handles the news as well as you'd think, but not for the reasons you'd assume.

dany handles it worse.

THIS READER’S (@meisiesmut) FAVORITE QUOTE

She would have told him that the dragons answered to no god, old or new, many-faced or wreathed in flame, but his mouth was there on hers, capturing her words. Her wrists were still braceleted by his hands and she flexed against the grip, unsure if she wanted to break free. She knew his taste, fresh as snow, slightly bitter—she’d begun to think of it as a north taste, as if the winter his family always claimed would come had been driven deep into his bones. His tongue sunk into her mouth, demanding entreaty. Dany was fire and flame and heat. She shouldn’t be the one melting, yet her body transformed into one long sigh of yearning, of wanting.

[nightqueendany]

I think you just need to distance the character from the fans. I see you said Sansa stans/Dany antis make it hard for you to like her character. But I’m a sansa stan and a hardcore jonerys shipper, in fact most people outside of tumblr don’t hate on Dany or even know what Jonsa is.

I’ve actually feel like most jonerys fans like Sansa. And most ppl are jonerys fans off of fandom sites as well. Most ppl don’t even know about Jonsa unless they’re on tumblr or reddit. And the ppl that do ship Jonsa, a lot of them rlly hate dany. Not all of them of course! But yeah pretty much everyone likes Sansa now and has seen her character growth.             

Combining these two because they’re fairly similar.

Thing is, I’ve never really liked/cared about Sansa. I mean, I don’t wish her ill like the Dany-antis, but I’ve never cared much about her character. I did like “Dark Sansa” in the Vale and her lying to Royce about Lysa’s death. That was a new side of her I found interesting. But she was never that compelling of a character to me.

Before I got caught up in the Tumblr verse, I actually thought most people were like me and disliked Sansa.

When I saw that GOT panel where Sophie was asked about Jonsa, I seriously thought that was just one random crazy fan because, EW, why would anyone in their right minds ship that? And then I found Tumblr and realized, oh, lots of other crazy people ship them.

It’s not like being on Tumblr has turned me off from Sansa because I was never a fan of hers before. I slightly disliked her before, and then just more disliked her after being on Tumblr. But I was never going to be that big of a Sansa fan. I just don’t relate to her, I think she’s entitled, she reminds me of all the bitchy pretty rude girls I went to high school with. It’s not like the fandom ruined Sansa for me. But unlike Dany antis, I can still see her merits and can separate her from the fandom enough to acknowledge when she’s done some good.

[sheikah]

Okay, serious question, is Jon sterile? Stay with me. He is technically undead and, I mean, I know he was resurrected quickly but if a hard blow to the testicles can cause infertility I imagine dying would do something and I demand answers! Is he able to sire an heir? how would that affect the line of succession?

Hi, anon! Great question. The short answer is no: Jon is not sterile. I’ve discussed this before under slightly different circumstances, because awhile back GRRM did an interview in which he stated that Beric is a “fire wight”–an undead, only instead of being raised by an Other, he was raised by the power of fire/ R’hllor. This caused a big stink in which many argued in much less funny and good-natured terms than you just did, that Jon was ALSO a “fire wight,” and therefore unable to impregnate Dany. But that’s just not true!Please check out my past meta about this here.Apologies in advance for my snippy tone in said meta, but its writing was prompted by a slew of anti Jonerys folks gleefully telling me that George’s interview confirmed Jon would never get Dany pregnant. So I wanted to prove them wrong. I hope the meta answers your question to your satisfaction, but a quick version is that George said that fire wights can’t eat or drink or even have a heartbeat, and we know that Beric doesn’t really fully heal from his wounds. So in the meta I proved why Jon can’t be a sterile fire wight like Beric is, because Jon heals from wounds, eats, and drinks. And I added that Jon’s resurrection is DIFFERENT from Beric’s, because Beric was raised many times by Thoros without paying a price (save a bit of his own humanity). Jon’s resurrection was bought with Shireen’s kingsblood, so Jon is fully ALIVE and not an undead. Only death can pay for life, and Shireen’s death (since it did nothing for Stannis) bought Jon’s life. Oh, and I also wrote this meta BEFORE season 7 aired, so we did not yet have as much evidence that Dany could be PTWP, or that Jon and Dany both are, or that maybe their child is. So that’s why in that meta I mention Jon as PTWP. Didn’t have as much information as I do now.Thanks for the ask!P. S.: To anons with questions about the possibility of Sansa’s and/or Dany’s deaths in season 8, I’m still pondering over those answers haha.

[sydney-stylites-blog]

The Spoils of War aka the ship sails

You ever feel mildly annoyed when you happen to read an anti’s stupidly illogical comment on your ship? And by mildly of course I mean majorly bothered so that the only cure is repeatedly watching your favorite Jonerys scenes until you’re so immersed in the beauty of their love that nothing can get to you anymore? 😍💖

And then of course, you just have to write about it because how else will you be able to get a handle on the mishmash of emotions that just take over you like? 💖💖😍

And this episode man. Just. This. This episode I tell you!!! I’m a regular GoT fan, which basically means that I’ve learnt to have certain expectations from the show, especially regarding love. And I can honestly say that never in my life could I have imagined that GoT would give me a romance as sweet as this!

The first Jonerys scene in this episode:

Had me laughing so hard! 

The look on Dany’s face, it’s just so suggestive! And Jon’s interruption itself is so timely just.. We aren’t ever going to forget Jon’s first cave episode ever are we? And the particular expertise he surprised us all by? 😂👏🏻 I mean how much more of a throwback could this be to to the Jon/Ygritte cave sequence? And as if that by itself wasn’t enough, he takes her to a cave! My boy Jon is unbeatable at cuteness, fight me!

By this time, it’s obvious that a considerable amount of time has already passed since Jon arrived on Dragonstone, and also that their relationship has definitely improved since the whole initial ‘bend the knee’ scene, and the cave scene totally shows this! Now I know that people have been complaining that their love is so rushed, and doesn’t make sense but I strongly disagree. With fewer (Stannis and Davos simultaneously approve) episodes and the decision to only show the focal interactions between Jonerys, what’s illogical is to assume that they have had no interaction offscreen which got them to the point that Dany doesn’t need her whole entourage to tag along when Jon wants to show her something. 

Which gets me to the ‘hoooolyyy shiiiiiiit, I ship them and I ship them hard dammit!!’ moment of the entire show!!! Look at this!!

Just!!!

Remember my favorite romantic trope of ‘looking when the other person is not’?? The only thing that ups that is ‘looking while the other person is completely fascinated by something else! There is legit nothing else which can make me melt as fast as this! Because it’s so simply pure! Like, you’re watching the other person be mesmerized by something you’re showing them! You’re watching them lost in wonder, so taken by what they’re seeing. And they’re so absorbed in their own world at that moment, they don’t even notice you doing that while I’m here completely losing it!!!

Plus, it also totally reminded me of one of my favoritest Disney movies ever!

*melts*

And this look!!! You know, I think this is probably one of the first times when Jon Snow was giving off the ‘you know nothing, but you’re so cute when you’re clueless and I get to show off’ vibes! 😂💖 

And this scene, oh my heart!!

This has to be the most non sexual and romantic physical contact on GoT ever! I can’t imagine any other moment when a simple arm touch like that (totally unnecessary, by the way, Jon. my boy’s got the moves though!) has got me shipping people so hard!!

Another thing which got me was how it was Jon who held her arm, our Jon (I’m never going to get over this!), reaching out to her in such a familiar comfortable gesture, when he could simply have walked ahead and shown her that. Basically, our Jon having the confidence to just take her arm like that, and the closeness (which lasts 0.00001 seconds, but it’s enough for a lifetime for me!💖), and the delicateness and the intense feels! 

And the softness? Apart from the way Jon kept looking at Dany and the arm touch, what I loved was how soft and mellow they both were around each other. Even though Dany still wanted him to ‘bend the knee’, not only was she softer, but she was so much more reasonable than in her throne room, where the attitude was ‘bend the knee you rebel, or i’ll destroy you after i’m finished with Cersei’; here, she is nudging him so much more gently than she had earlier. Jon, on his part, gives her an actual reason as to why he can’t submit to her, as opposed to his own stance earlier - ‘why would i give the north to you, stranger?’ Jon knows his people, and he knows they are not going to accept a Southern ruler, especially not a Targaryen. (which is realistic, those Northern lords are a task), he’s basically telling her that he’s not refusing because he wants to keep his title or anything so shallow as all that, it’s his people. And the puppy eyes in this scene only make it sooooo much better! 

And then there’s this!

The symbolism of ‘ice and fire’ being reinforced aside, they are shown so beautifully to be equals here, in sync, working towards the same goals! If that isn’t enough to start wanting them together…

This whole cave scene basically set up that Jon is definitely starting to develop feelings for her, which is only to be expected because she’s beautiful enough to warrant that attraction, and plus, Jon is starting to know her and realize that she’s not her father, or Cerse,i or bad or evil or batshit crazy or any of those things Targaryens are reputed to be. Dany’s trust in Jon is shown right in the following scene, when she disregards all her other advisors and turns to Jon, because she has come to know, that this is a man who will always put the realm first, a man whom she can trust to give her the truth keeping the people in mind, a man with no other motive than to save his people against all odds. 

Then again, there are the neverending parallels between them:

It is emphasized again and again how, despite their seeming differences, they share certain values and experiences with each other, which again serves to bring them closer together.

Now what I found really important was this:

I live for Ser Davos’ dialogues! But what’s important to note is Jon’s reply:

‘There’s no time for that.’

Now, if he had really been trying to seduce Dany according to the antis (which I am definitely not going to believe in), it would have been far more natural for him to just be quiet about this.

If Mister Honor Incarnate is actually setting aside his honor for the greater good, it is definitely not going to come without an internal struggle. This guy has lived all his life by a strict moral code, and to set it aside will not be easy, especially considering manipulation is not his forte. 

So, if he had been trying to seduce her, he would be ashamed of it, he would hate himself for doing that, and when Ser Davos would have teased him about it, he definitely wouldn’t have replied with “there’s no time for that,” since according to some antis, that is his exact plan and there’s all the time for it!

But Jon doesn’t look pensive or even slightly uncomfortable. He doesn’t deny it, or even stare blankly at Davos like ‘what are you talking about?’. 

No. 

He simply says there is no time for it, and you know why he does that? Because right now, his sole mission in life is taking down the Night King, ensure the survival of the living, he doesn’t have time to fall in love and allow himself to be sidetracked. 

Jon basically is treating his second life as some sort of ‘serving the greater cause’, he doesn’t seem to think he can focus on anything other than the Night King, especially not something personal as fall for Daenerys. Also, he knows that falling for her will only lead to complications, since the North is staunchly against the Targaryens. He doesn’t want to analyse his feelings for her because it will lead him down a rabbit hole he doesn’t think he should be ‘wasting’ his time on. God, he has such a heroic aura around him, turning away from any possible personal desire for the greater good. Jon, why do you have to be so good! Of course, he’ll eventually end up changing his mind in the most glorious way possible and I just! 💖😍

Also, they have the epicest couple line! 

*jonerys feels intensify*

[ao3feed-briennejaime]

The Bells Rung, She Listened. Or: The Ending We All Deserved.

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/2pK0cdt

by Not_So_Dark_One

Alternate season 8, episodes 5 and 6. The Jonerys endgame we deserve. While I was not a fan of the canon ship, I decided to make one better. The story starts at that critical moment during the battle of King's Landing, where the bells ring in surrender. The moment that D&D revealed just how bad they are with scripts. This story shall be a short one, for obvious reasons, though we will see how long I will make it. By current estimations, I say three to five chapters, but we will see. Maybe more. I want to cover many things. Either way, enjoy this and please comment and discuss your views in the comment section.

Words: 2911, Chapters: 1/?, Language: English

Fandoms: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms

Rating: Not Rated

Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death

Categories: F/M

Characters: Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, Sansa Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Grey Worm, Original House Martell Character(s), Yara Greyjoy, Original House Targaryen Character(s), Ghost (ASoIaF), Jaime Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Euron Greyjoy

Relationships: Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen, Minor or Background Relationship(s), Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth, Cersei Lannister/Jaime Lannister, Euron Greyjoy/Cersei Lannister

Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Game of Thrones Alternate Season 08, Fix-It, Episode Fix-it, Daenerys Targaryen Is Not a Mad Queen, Mad Queen Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow is a Targaryen, Jon Snow Knows Something, Dark Daenerys Targaryen, Pro Dany, Queen Daenerys, Daenerys Targaryen Deserves Better, Tyrion Lannister Ships It, Matchmaker Tyrion Lannister, anti Sansa, pro jon, Boatbaby (Game of Thrones), the ending that was promised, I shall deliver, Dark Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen, Dark Jon Snow, Happy Ending, Targaryen Restoration, House Targaryen, Targaryen Incest, Targaryen Madness, Slightly - Freeform, Not too much, but i want to show some of that too, Targaryen Babies

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/2pK0cdt

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Hi! I don’t know if you have covered this before but do you think Jon/Dan was toxic and abusive? I feel like it was. Like the scene in Mareen where Danny tells Hizdar she has suitor on his knees was foreshadowing. ☹️I think it’s partly Dany never knowing healthy love relationships. I’m not excusing her behaviour but I think it’s a contributing reason.

Hey, Nonnie! So sorry for the delay in my response. I started to answer and had written you back a 10,000 word essay lol but then realized I didn't really answer your question so I scrapped it. And instead wrote you another 10,000 word essay LOL. Sorry! This got long.

I'll be honest, idr if I have gone into this before but no worries, I will go into it here. =)

I do feel that the relationship was toxic and abusive. One of the things I've always stood by when I've been asked why I'm anti-Jonerys (besides Dany becoming a tyrant and the KL massacre) is that the relationship was not good for Jon or Dany. Though I do think the toxicity and abuse of power was coming strictly from Dany's side. Some might disagree and say Jon was manipulating Dany the whole time (if they're willing to admit that pol!Jon or something was there that got dropped in the end) which is also not healthy but their argument gets lost in the context. Had Jon been manipulating her to get some form of power, then yes. But that wasn't why he did it as we know and he tried to do it in the kindest way possible, which falls in line with what Kit said about Jon in season 7. But, regardless, the relationship overall wasn't healthy and really helped to contribute to both of their downfalls in the story.

That's an interesting observation there, Nonnie, and I do tend to agree with you. Like you said, it doesn't excuse her actions but I do think part of it is that she never knew a healthy relationship or type of love. The purest form of love that she has known is absolute devotion from her followers and from men who were blinded by her beauty and in awe of her.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but I do believe her abusive past with Viserys helped to contribute to that rage she had. As if each time it happened, it stoked the fire within her. I'm not saying it's the sole factor but I think it definitely added to it. She had never known any kind of love before that. She was simply a pawn, a piece to be traded, based on her looks and relation to Viserys.

Then she was with Drogo, which she ended up turning to her advantage. I do think she loved him, possibly as much as he loved her, but as we know it didn't equate to how much she loved Jon. I almost wonder how the relationship between Drogo and Dany would have gone had he survived. Like I would almost have loved to have seen S8 Dany and S1 Drogo together for a moment, to see if she would have kept him as her husband or he also would have become a threat, because she wasn't willing to share the throne. But I digress. While they loved each other, I think that love was slightly tainted due to its beginnings (her being essentially sold to him) and the fact that she had to utilize the knowledge Doreah taught her in order to change the dynamic between them. In that scene linked, to me, it's yet another foreshadowing clue/inside look into Dany's character. "Are you a slave, Khaleesi? Then don't make love like a slave." And then Dany flips her somewhat aggressively onto her back, which catches Doreah pleasantly off guard. But this also shows what Dany's real motive was. She said she wanted to please Drogo, which is why Doreah is instructing her, but ultimately she wanted to turn things to her advantage (which in this scenario, who could blame her?) so that love that develops between Dany and Drogo started a trend of the love of the so-called men in her life. Drogo has this absolute devotion to her (moon of my life), he doesn't behave like any other Khal when it comes to their wives and/or women, and she basically tames him so to speak. To his own detriment, which leads to his downfall and his death.

Then you have Jorah who she never got involved with but he had his own absolute devotion to her and was willing to do anything for her. He kidnapped Tyrion to get back in her favor and goes to find a cure for greyscale so he can go back to serving her because she tells him she needs him. She loved him in her own way, but she never returned the feelings he had for her. But she still had his devotion and he was someone she ultimately trusted and kept close. This farewell scene is very telling imho of the dynamic between them as well of his devotion. A lot of people focus on Dany's farewell to Jon for various reasons, as well as the looking back trope, but to me this was the most important piece:

Jorah was going to say something but she puts her hands into his, letting him know silently that she needs him and to return to her. Jorah sees Jon coming and kisses her hand before withdrawing. But this very image is of someone subservient to someone else. He may not be on his knees doing this but he doesn't need to be; she already has his devotion. So as pure as this love is that he has for her, it's not requited and there is a power dynamic between them. Which is a shame because I dare say that I think had Dany returned his feelings at all, he might have been a healthier love interest for her (later on in the series I mean) and would have been able to temper her impulses. And I only say that because of this scene:

He not only convinces her to let up on Tyrion slightly but also to try and talk to Sansa. And here Dany, while lying through her teeth (about Tyrion stealing Jorah's position; thankfully her manipulation tactic doesn't work here), is not acting as his queen so to speak. (and even notice that she ends up walking away from the open fire, ending up on the other side of the room, which is interesting because Dany was facing the fire when Jorah walked in - very powerful statement the show is making here; the blocking of this scene was super important)

Then you have Daario. Daario who betrayed the other Second Sons' leaders for her and immediately bends the knee, helps her take Yunkai, and begins advising her on how she must rule. He makes a valid point that she needs to know the land she is going to rule (a precursor to the whole Westeros arc) but he also sees who she really is and encourages her to be the dragon basically. He loves her and while she has affection for him and despite getting involved with him, she doesn't return the feelings. But in this relationship, you have the power dynamic at play as well as his absolute devotion.

Then you have Tyrion. Tyrion who considers himself to be a smart man and see through people easily. While he convinces Dany not to execute him once Jorah delivers him to her, as he starts advising her, he begins to have faith in her. He believes she is the answer to the shit world they're in and wants her to make a better world for them all. And in the course of this, he falls head over heels in love with her. He is the antithesis of Jorah. He has devotion to Daenerys but it's not absolute, and Dany knows that. Hence the constant contention between them once things in Westeros starts going sideways. Tyrion saw through her, knew what she was, but he convinced himself that he could guide her and temper her impulses. So he couldn't be wrong and he loved her. This line he says to Jaime isn't just about Jaime and Cersei; it's also about Tyrion and Daenerys and the current dynamic they're in. "You always knew exactly what she was. You loved her anyway."

(I couldn't find the scene of Tyrion walking through the destruction of the battle in 7x05)

From Jaime/Tyrion seeing the destruction to seeing Cersei/Dany, all paralleled. Even this:

Not only does this form of love contribute to Tyrion's downfall (and he obviously didn't learn his lesson from Tysha or Shae), but it also leads to his family and house being wiped off of the map and contributes to the KL massacre. Dany didn't return his feelings but she had a form of affection for him, which lessened the more and more the chasm between them grew. (I have a post I'm currently working on that goes into this more, about Dany's expectation of absolute devotion, including giving up family; I hope to finish it soon and post it) The more and more mistakes Tyrion made that she did not want to forgive. Her line to Sansa in 8x02 proves exactly why she kept him around. "I didn't ask him to be my Hand simply because he was good. I asked him to be my Hand because he was good, and intelligent, and ruthless when he had to be." And we all know how this relationship ended. That Tyrion literally embodies "Duty is the death of love".

And then we have Jon (sorry it took me so long to get here, Nonnie). Jon would have been good for her as well, but not as much as Jorah I don't think. Their relationship, as brief as it was, started on warring power dynamics (mostly on her side), abusive power dynamics (again, from her side), and manipulation (from both). As we all know, that's not a recipe for a healthy relationship. A lot of Jonerys shippers like to point to Dany's proposal in the 8x06 throne room scene as to how this power dynamic between them would have balanced out, but they always miss three big things: 1) Jon was not going to last had he accepted that proposal (she was going to eventually kill him), 2) there was already an abusive power dynamic at play, & 3) this proposal did not happen in a romantic type setting (or even a peaceful or mellow one), it literally took place in a destroyed throne room while the ashes of those burned alive swirled in the air around them. It was not going to be a happy ending for this pairing even if Jon had never grabbed that dagger.

And sure enough, since the relationship started, it has been beyond toxic. I admit, it was more subtle in the beginning, but it definitely became more and more overt as the show continued on. To the point where we now have some very big examples: 8x04, 8x05, and even 8x06 (though this one I would say is more related to the throne and the power struggle than their relationship tbf).

8x04:

Here Jon mentions Jorah at first (because Dany is basically Jon's Jorah in that dynamic but also because Dany wants Jon to be her next Jorah, but one she loves back). Then we get her admitting she loves him and then this breakdown:

Jon kisses Dany but he subtly moves her away from the open fire

Dany begins to try to undress Jon & only then does he return the favor

Jon stops kissing her and moves away (notice how this only happens once she's where he's moved her)

Dany then goes into her spiel about how she wishes she could forget, how she wishes Jon hadn't told her the truth (the audience's initial impression is that it's about how the truth affects their relationship in the love/sex aspect) and how she sees how many people love Jon compared to her

Jon tries to assure her that he doesn't want the IT & she tells him to never tell anyone who he really is

Jon makes it clear that he wants to tell Sansa and Arya who he really is and Dany doesn't like this due to Sansa because it will threaten her claim to the IT; she begs Jon not to tell anyone & when he tries to assure her that everything will be okay, she goes cold (aka comes out of her manipulation attempt) and basically threatens him with "I've just told you how" (and the implied '...or else') & leaves

For me, the most important lines to focus on here are:

"If I didn't know, I'd be happy right now." -> Dany only focusing on how she feels about this situation

"I told you I don't want it." "It doesn't matter what you want. You didn't want to be King in the North. What happens when they demand you press your claim and take what is mine?" -> not only is this foreshadowing for what ultimately would happen to Jon had Dany survived but it also is once again, all about her; not to mention, she now knows the IT isn't hers but in her mind "mine" -> "Dragons don't understand the difference between what is theirs and what isn't." (7x07)

"You can say nothing. To anyone ever. Never tell them who you really are. Swear your brother and Samwell Tarly to secrecy and tell no one else." -> as if this isn't bad enough just by itself, we've seen Jon's struggle throughout the series as a bastard who wanted nothing more than to be a Stark, to have this identity and be embraced as something more than a bastard - we've seen him work hard and how he has moved up the ranks so to speak - we've seen the toll it takes on him to be something he's not (aka his wildling arc, to me it's no coincidence that he falls in love with Ygritte, someone who knows who he really is, a crow, and loves him anyway; and even this hidden thing he has during his Dany arc) - so for her, his only other relative on that side of the family, to deny his identity and want to keep it hidden all because of who he is (which is literally a parallel for the bastard part of his story, like Cat hating him because of his birth, something that can't be helped & is not his fault), as we know for a relationship that's a HUGE red flag - some may say Dany is thinking proactively and politically and to an extent, they're correct, but for the relationship to thrive, both people have to be getting what they need and validate the other - not to mention, Jon is on his knees during this part while she leans over him, gripping his face & saying this, this very image is an abusive power dynamic at play (which is exactly why Jon gets to his feet, he is stunned that she's telling him to deny himself basically)

"Even if the truth destroys us?" "It won't." "It will." -> tbf, Dany is right here but not just the truth about who Jon is, it's also about the truth of Jon "kindly manipulating" her; however, the truth about who Jon is only being told to his other family shouldn't matter here and here's why: Cersei broke the wheel so to speak by becoming the first Queen of the 7K (which is why Dany is so anxious to get her off the throne btw, Cersei beat her to the punch on that one & it doesn't bode well for her destiny and making impossible things happen). Jon's claim, while being strong, doesn't automatically mean that it usurps Dany's now because he's a man. The only way his claim is a threat to her now is because she's a "foreign invader" and like she says in this scene (and in 8x05), Jon has love (and a healthier form of that devotion) where she doesn't. Dany knows if the truth gets out, Jon will have more support and people will want to see him on the IT besides Sansa or any of the Starks. So here we have manipulation coming from Dany (which we already had in this scene, like the hand grabbing for instance, but here it's extremely overt) in order to keep him quiet so she can still "take what is mine". (and the begging him is part of this) And the manipulation as we know isn't healthy either, from either of them tbf, but her endgame is definitely different to Jon's, as well as the means they take to go about achieving them.

"We can live together." "We can. I've just told you how." Her tone and expression changes on a dime here and becomes cold and flat. We then see them break apart and she leaves. -> this is a threat, she's telling him 'don't say anything or else' because of the fact that she says "We can. I've just told you how" after he says "And they are my family. We can live together." And obviously, if there's threats present in a relationship, this is another HUGE red flag and this does not lead to a happy ending. This is toxic and abusive, especially since the threat implies possible bodily harm to Jon or his other family should he tell his sisters the truth about himself.

And then of course they gave us the contrast in these two images to show us exactly who is leading this abusive power dynamic here (as well as showing us the contrast between the two characters since they're two sides of the same coin):

For 8x05, I already went into this a bit here, so I won't go into it too much but we see the abusive power dynamics come sharper into focus, becoming more overt. We see that Jon is actually afraid of what she's going to do when he refuses her advances and makes it obvious that his love devotion for her doesn't run as deep as he had been trying to portray (though we don't find out until 8x06 that his fear is not just about what will happen to the North or Bran or Arya but to Sansa, since Sansa was the biggest threat to her besides Jon himself). It becomes about fear at that point, which Dany basically says herself at the end of the scene, and once that's in the mix (which it already was but the show made it extremely obvious here in this moment), there's no hope for that relationship.

And this scene is also meant to link (as a parallel and contrast) to the 8x04 scene above since they have the open fire, Jon trying to placate her, and how Dany initiates the physical intimacy while also the mention of the truth, Sansa, and "I don't want it" comes into play.

The other scene in 8x05 that I think shows deeper into their relationship is this one:

Even though this is about Varys, some important lines are said:

"There's something you need to know." "Someone has betrayed me." "Yes." "Jon Snow." -> without Tyrion saying anything & her knowing nothing, she automatically assumes that it's Jon (this is not a truly romantic relationship nor is all of this suspicion healthy) - talk about toxic (and while Jorah may have betrayed her in the past & she feels Tyrion is betraying her consistently, Drogo and Daario never betrayed her so yes she may deal with betrayal constantly but there was no reason to assume that about Jon other than paranoia/worry about the truth getting out) -> this points to that Jon is already layered heavily in suspicion in her mind and foreshadows what would have happened to Jon had she survived (she had Jon there at Varys' execution for a reason; the show had Jon there purposely despite the whole Northern army traveling timeline thing they had going on)

"He knows the truth about Jon." "He does." "Because you told him. You learned from Sansa. And she learned from Jon. Though I begged him not to tell her. As I said, he betrayed me." -> even though Tyrion has just told her that it's Varys who has betrayed her, her focus is once again on Tyrion, Sansa, and Jon, with Jon being the worst since he told the truth though she "begged" him not to -> this all ties into the absolute devotion she expects even when it comes to someone's family; had Jon stayed with Dany & accepted her proposal, not only would he have eventually been executed but he would have had to give up the Starks, literally and figuratively, especially Sansa; isolating one from one's family/loved ones is obviously toxic and leads to abuse (if it's not present already)

Then we have the 8x06 scene that I think was foreshadowing Jon's eventual demise itself:

(and funnily enough, right after Dany walks away, Arya shows up & warns Jon about this very thing happening as well as mentioning how Sansa won't accept Dany as queen; "And I know a killer when I see one")

and the bonus is this look when Dany has walked away (before Arya shows up):

(he looks like one smitten kitten, doesn't he?)

So it definitely was toxic and abusive, and it was never going to have a happy ending. Even if the KL massacre didn't happen, let's say. They set it up this way from the get go:

In 7x02, when Dany summons Jon, she makes it very clear that Jon is to come to Dragonstone so an alliance can be brokered (as is indicated by Melisandre, though tbf to Mel, she said Dany should meet Jon and hear what he has to say so there goes Dany taking the words and running with it for her own gain, yet again) but he is to bend the knee first and foremost.

In 7x03, we see Jon and Dany meet for the first time, but we also see something else happening here:

1) Drogon intimidates Jon and Co by flying directly over them (quick side note here: one of the various reasons I'm looking forward to HotD is because I'm pretty sure they're going to be getting into just how much the dragons are bonded with their riders and how they represent them, like Daemon's dragon - this was something that was sorely lacking in GoT and only if people watched behind the scenes do they see David talking about it at the end of season 5 when Drogon saves Dany & in that deleted scene where Jon asks Dany how to control Rhaegal - I'm excited because this is definitely something from the world of the books & if any GoT GA watch HotD, they will finally understand just how much Dany controlled Drogon & how much he represented her)

2) Jon's boat is taken away when it doesn't need to be (they literally could have moved it further up the beach so it wouldn't wash away but the show chose for us to see Jon noticing how his boat is taken away & it plays into Jon now being a prisoner & unable to leave) - while the disarming makes sense, the boat relocation does not, especially since the Dothraki are used to do it (and not the Unsullied - very purposeful - the Unsullied aren't there to make war, they're following orders, the Dothraki are Dany's bloodriders)

3) The first shot we get of Dany (from Jon's POV) is this:

While it makes sense for Dany to make this impression, it doesn't make sense if they're going for the romance angle, despite the rough start they may have at first. If Dany was meant to be seen by Jon as regal, someone to believe in, a powerful but just queen, this shot was the wrong way to go about it. (and we all already know, this show definitely made choices)

4) In Dany's intro scene to Jon, when she doesn't get what she wants (him bending the knee), she instead becomes displeased & threatens him with "As far as I can see, you are the enemy to the North." (which calls back to Jon and Sansa's convo in 7x01 above Winterfell) & then making this point again with "It's also fair to point out that I'm the rightful queen of the Seven Kingdoms. By declaring yourself King of the Northernmost Kingdom, you are in open rebellion." (after Jon literally just explained that the Northern lords put their trust in him to lead them and he would do so as best as he could)

5) Jon likens Dany to Cersei (the enemy to the South that Sansa had been mentioning in 7x01) with "The only reason I can see is you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. It's the fastest way to win the war but you won't do it which means at the very least, you're better than Cersei." (so now, based on the dialogue itself, we have the setup of them being on opposing sides, and that Dany is indeed an enemy though Jon tries to smooth this over - and now looking back, it's easy to connect the dots even more to that 7x01 scene, since the show was trying to tell us about Dany being another threat in addition to the NK)

6) Dany's speech to Jon in this scene shows who she really is (when she talks about faith, you see a glimmer of that simmering rage shining through) & how she views herself through the lens of how others have viewed her so far, her so-called believers. You can see Jon taking this in (that's not an impressed or awe-struck look he has as shippers claim) and then puts it to her point blank: "You'll be ruling over a graveyard if we don't defeat the Night King." (I really do believe he sees her for exactly what she is in this moment but he needs her help with the NK)

7) When Varys speaks to Dany and basically sends Jon and Davos to rest in their rooms, Jon asks "Am I your prisoner?" He puts voice to everything that this scene has set up to this moment. And she replies with "Not yet." But after everything we've seen, we know he is (because let's face it, Dany wants her northern kingdom, she's not sure exactly yet what she's facing as far as his following goes and how devoted they might be to him, he's not looking at her with awe and wonder like so many others have done, she just lost the Greyjoys and Dorne, and compared to her other Westerosi allies he's showing up asking for help versus the others showing up to help her go for the IT no matter their agendas of revenge)

8) In this scene with Tyrion, not only do we have Jon looking out over the sea (I would say almost longingly), he says point blank: "I'm a prisoner on this island." There it is. He's her prisoner. (and people wonder why he agreed to go beyond the Wall later on after getting the dragonglass lol) And Tyrion confirms this: "I wouldn't say you're a prisoner on this island. You're free to walk the castle, the beaches, to go wherever you want." But Jon isn't having it: "Except to my ship. You took my ship." So Tyrion tries again: "I wouldn't say we took your ship." And Jon shuts him down: "I'm not playing word games with you." And there it is for the audience in a few lines: Jon is Dany's prisoner and he's not allowed to leave, Jon and Tyrion know it, and Tyrion is trying to get Jon to play ball for Dany's benefit. And Jon is refusing to: "I'd like to leave." But Tyrion insists, accesses Jon through his mentioning of the North and his title (aka the trust the North put in Jon). But the line that Tyrion says that is so telling (about Jon and Dany themselves) it's chilling: "Sometimes there's more to foreign invaders and Northern fools than meets the eye." That line, now knowing what we know, sets up the foreshadowing for both of their characters but also their relationship and its dynamic perfectly. And Tyrion's line of "Maybe you are a Northern fool" sets up how Tyrion sees Jon in this dynamic with Dany, that he believed that Jon was really in love with Dany. This episode was written by D&D; these lines were very purposeful & now looking back, you can see it was the setup for the J/D relationship.

9) In this scene where Jon & Dany talk, it starts out with Jon stopped on the stairway, watching a dragon fly overhead. In this shot, we can also see Dany is further down the stairwell, at the Wall, watching them as well. This sets up exactly how Jon is viewing her (as the dragon or something that appears scary and intimidating) as does the beginning dialogue from Jon saying the dragons are amazing things to see. Then we have the conversation where Dany asserts her position as Jon asserts his, both are faced away from each other (in opposition to one another) except when they are asserting their positions, and the attempt to find a common ground by both of them (him mentioning the dragons; her mentioning his brothers) fails. They only are facing each other again when Dany capitulates about the dragonglass. After Jon thanks her, she turns away from him again. He tries once more and asks "So you believe me then about the Night King and the Army of the Dead?" She doesn't answer this but tells him "You'd better get to work, Jon Snow." And he walks away. Because in the throne room scene in this episode, she called him Lord Snow (purposely demoting his title because she is asserting herself as Queen) and he called her Your Grace. So for her to say "Jon Snow" instead of "Lord Snow" demotes him back to his full bastard status that he had in the beginning of the series. And this is why Jon walks away in the fashion he does. So even before their relationship begins, even before this attraction pops up that Davos mentions in 7x04, Dany had already introduced the abuse of this power dynamic and eventually this will become toxic.

10) The cave scene was not only meant to attempt to get Dany to understand the very real threat the world is facing but also shows how Dany uses this moment to her advantage in order to get Jon to bend the knee. It's still about the IT for her & her being in power.

11) In this scene, Davos tries to get him and Jon out of the situation with "You'll want to discuss this amongst yourselves" which Dany immediately denies "You will stay." There was no reason for Jon or Davos to be a part of this conversation, especially since technically Jon and Dany aren't allies yet and Jon has not bent the knee. It's not smart to have things you're discussing with your advisors in front of people who are technically not on your side and could pose a real threat. Even Varys looks surprised that she orders Jon and Davos to stay. But she does this because it's manipulation and slight intimidation. Some might look at her asking Jon's advice as her valuing Jon's opinion, but ultimately she doesn't take it. We see her use Drogon and her army to attack (and burn) the Lannister army on the Gold Road. And we also see her impulsively burn all the food in the midst of the battle. She wanted them, more specifically Jon, to see her rip Tyrion apart (because Tyrion has that link to Jon; he vouched for him in addition to Melisandre & he and Jon have a history) because she's angry and she wants them all to know it. Notice how when the camera is on Tyrion after Dany turns around to unleash on him, in the background Jon takes another step back to get closer to Davos. Varys also takes a step back, as does Missandei and even Davos himself. Tyrion is the only one who doesn't, but he keeps his eyes down as she verbally tears into him. Only in the next shot of him do we see his eyes meeting Dany's but then dropping again. When she says "Our enemies? Your family, you mean. Perhaps you don't want to hurt them after all", the camera is then on Jon, Davos, and Missandei, but the focus is Jon. Because it will come down to Jon's family (Sansa) and Dany herself. That if Jon doesn't give Dany the absolute devotion she's looking for, he will also be in danger himself (without the parentage reveal even). Manipulation and intimidation.

12) Which makes absolute sense to Jon's reaction (or lack of one) to the news of Arya and Bran here. I know people wondered why he didn't react more but the show purposely had Jon's emotional reunion with Bran in 8x01 (& then his private emotional reunion with Arya in the same episode) to show us that Jon obviously cared. He didn't want Dany to see back in 7x05. Which is interesting because technically in 7x06, when Jon bends the knee, that's when his more personal manipulation of Dany starts. But here, the manipulation (to get off of Dragonstone and back North) has already begun. He still wants her as an ally, still needs her help with the NK, but here I don't think he planned to kick that manipulation up a notch. Not until he saw the dragons in action. And in this scene, we see Jon trying to get her to let him go but she comes up with reasons why he can't (and as we start to see, this is to the beginning of developing feelings she has for him). It's only when Tyrion comes up with the Wight plan that Jon agrees to go (once again, trying to get off this island but get Dany as an ally), and when she refuses, he asserts himself again. And this time, she capitulates. The fact that he had to fight for his freedom so to speak, speaks volumes once again to their dynamic.

13) This last scene before Jon leaves Dragonstone, everyone talks about the lack of a look back to Dany from Jon but also about the infamous words Jon says to Dany: "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, Your Grace." But more importantly, he says this in response to her "I've grown used to him". She is making her interest in him obvious in that moment, to the audience and to Jon, and he instead replies with the infamous line said between enemies. Very telling for how their dynamic is not only viewed by Jon himself but by the writers as well.

So, it was all set up from the get go. And like you mentioned, the foreshadowing of Dany and what she expected in her relationships after Drogo, that scene with Hizdahr was very telling. And we literally see that play out with Jon. So, I absolutely agree with you, Nonnie.

I also agree with you that Dany never knew healthy relationships or even knew what love was. Take her dragons for example. I'm not saying she didn't love them but she definitely used them as weapons long before season 8. I remember watching 3x01 and being shocked at what she says to Jorah about the dragons, after watching the dragons flying overhead fondly.

"They're growing fast."

"Not fast enough. I can't wait that long." (as she's literally stroking Drogon and he's enjoying the attention from his mom - this is part of the reason I don't hate the dragons btw or blame them, it was Dany and the Targaryens that turned them into weapons)

I remember seeing that at first watch and being like 'but they're your children! Wtf?' But it was just one of many things that didn't add up about her (until they did). Plus, my thinking is: Sis, I'd like to see you try to take KL without the Unsullied, the full Dothraki force, and at least one grown dragon. Stannis had an army (and ships) and wasn't able to get it done. What makes you think you would have? Sorry, I digress, but I get irritated when I watch that scene, and slightly protective (I have a thing with fictional animals, I guess).

And she seems to agree with me. "I need an army." (and she looks irritated as she says this while watching Drogon fly off which again made me go 'wtf', almost as if it was the dragons' fault for taking too long to grow)

So even though these dragons are her 'children and the only children' she will ever have, she also views them as weapons. A means to get her what she wants and to instill fear in those she means to rule slaughter and whoever stands in her way. Tbf to Dany, she never knew her mother and she wasn't raised with love, but like you said, Nonnie, it doesn't excuse her actions.

She definitely had no reference point for a healthy and loving romantic relationship since she had never been in one. But again, no excuse. While I can appreciate what she was trying to accomplish, or maybe it's more appropriate to say what she was selling to her believers, she absolutely went the wrong way about it and it should have been no surprise to anyone that things never worked out for her in the romance department. Especially since Jon was never going to be one of those blind followers.

Toxic. And abusive.

Thank you for the ask, Nonnie! I hope I was able to answer you with this 300 page paper LOL. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day!!! <3

[fedonciadale]

The worst thing for me, personally, if Jonsa doesn't happen is that there are some genuinely nasty people, more than some, who will get what they want. Some of the antis are honestly the most horrible people I've encountered online. Did you see Hannah Murray's reaction to Jonsa last year? That's what convinced me it isn't happening. Trust me, I'd give anything to be wrong about that.

80% of me thinks it's happening but then I remember the disappointment I felt when S7 was released. I really believed those leaks were false and that it wouldn't happen but it was worse than expected. I don't wanna go into S8 expecting what I want and being devastated again.             

Dear nonny,

If you're sceptical, be sceptical! Protect your shippy heart. The joy might be even better. No one is obliged to be optimistic!

You know, I am fairly optimistic for the next season, but that's because I sort of expected (and dreaded) Jon€rys to happen since book two. When season 6 aired and I delved into shipping Jonsa and never looked back, because it makes so much sense, I hoped that maybe Jon€rys would not happen.

And then the leaks happened and I also desperately wished for them not to be true, not only because of Jon€rys but also because of the Winterhell plot and the stupid, stupid Wight Hunt - a piece of TV history best forgotten.

When the actual season aired, it became clear that the leaks were more or less accurate but that the execution still told a different story. So I was very glad about the Jonsa scenes that gave the vibes I hoped for and I chuckled at the Jon€rys scenes, because anything I had made up in my imagination was far more shippy and romantic than anything we saw on screen. From episode 3 onwards it was clear that we headed for bo@tbang and in a way I was glad that I was prepared for it. When it happened I laughed...

I'll never forgive D&D for the bad execution of the Winterhell plot, for having men who should be mortal enemies enter into a bromance within minutes and at the same time have Sansa and Arya have a cat fight over nothing - and not even doing us the courtesy of revealing when exactly Sansa and Arya banded up together (my guess is that they don't know themselves)...

So, even if Jon€rys turns out to be a romance - one that was executed far below the ability of writers, directors and actors, I would never be that mad as I am about Winterhell plot.

Anyway, since I sort of expected it (but hoped it would not happen and hope dies last as we say here) and even talked myself into clinging to that hope, I still knew that season 7 was not the last word.

And under the assumption that book and show end the same Jonsa is a very valid theory, a theory that also has evidence from the visuals of the show. So I am confident because I think the book evidence, once you actually look for it, is overwhelming.

As for actors interviews, I simply think that these are very thin evidence. I mean it is fun to speculate what Kit meant when he said that Jon has learned to manipulate people or what NCW meant when he said he is satisfied with the ending and it's fun to interprete these in our favour, the same Jon€rys shippers do when they interprete Hanna Murray's face in their favour or Kit's remark about the 'not so secret lovers'.

But ultimately these are people who make their money by impersonating other people. And while I do think that a good interviewer might manage to get out some of the real persona, I would say that most of the time these people act. That is their fucking job. And now imagine being an actor and knowing about a plot twist that should remain secret... I would prepare in advance to train a reaction that does not give anything away.

As for the anti Jonsas, yes there are some people who really are unhinged, and I really hate that they go against the shippers and not the ship, that many of the big blogs do not try to contain fandom wank, that a (shy) Jon€rys shipper came into my ask box to tell me they think that the foolery that happened was uncalled for and admitted that they do not dare to speak up about this in their own fandom...

So... as for Karma some (not all!) certainly collected lots of bad Karma... But being a middle aged person I know that Karma works in tricky ways... So that argument is invalid.

I believe in GRRM though. He wrote this story, not D&D, not the Jon€rys shippers with their headcanons that were nowhere to be seen on screen. And whatever happens, there will be no Targ restoration and Jon€rys as a ship will burn. Even back in the days of book two when I thought it was inevitable and dreaded it I knew it would not have a good ending.

Thanks for the ask!

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Love is the death of duty vs Duty is the death of love

I’ve been rewatching some season 1 episodes and man do they hit different now knowing how it all ends. A lot of us already know that Jon chose love over duty, that he chose to protect Sansa (and the Starks by extension) by killing Dany, which fulfilled Jon’s promise to Sansa from season 6. We also already know they were attempting to make Jon Ned 2.0 but watching this season, I didn’t realize just how much:

“Tell me, did you ever wonder why men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?”

“No.”

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

...

“Yet, sooner or later, there comes a day in every man’s life where it is not easy. A day when he must choose.”

“Then this is my day. Is that what you’re saying?”

“It hurts, boy. Oh, yes. I know.”

“You do not know. No one knows. I may be a bastard but he is my father and Robb is my brother.”

*Aemon laughs*

“I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself and live with it the rest of your days.” (x)

I’m not saying that D&D knew this early on how the series would end. But I do remember GRRM being involved in the show up until season 4 I think it was. It really was all going to come down to the choice Jon made. And how ironic that a Targaryen is the one to pose this question to him, a Targaryen that is part of the Night’s Watch as Maester. 

Ned chose to honor Lyanna’s request and keep Jon safe, spawning the heartbreak of Catelyn and people doubting his honor, two very important things to him before his family grew. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they did not know the real reason). Ned made his choice and lived it with the rest of his days. Jon was not Ned’s son but his nephew, the trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Jon chose to keep his promise to Sansa and keep her safe, spawning the consequences of killing Dany and his banishment to the Wall. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they think they know the reason why but they don’t truly know why Jon chose to do it outside of KL massacre). Jon made his choice and now he has to live with it the rest of his days. Sansa was not his half-sister but his cousin, the trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn.

Jon indeed chose Love over Duty just like Ned did. And that is also why he has Ned’s armor on when going to confront Dany in the throne room.

He wasn’t just echoing Robb. The show wasn’t just displaying subtly that Jon was listening to Sansa’s warning from 7x01 about being smarter than both Ned and Robb. He was also channeling Ned, in the fact that he had to make a decision just as Ned did once upon a time. If Robert ever found out that Ned had been harboring a child of Rhaegar’s that his beloved Lyanna bore to the Prince that stole her... It was a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it made him look. Jon has also been faced with a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it eventually makes him look to parts of Westeros. 

Tyrion had that little clever spinoff of Aemon’s line that we all remember: “Duty is the death of love” -- because Tyrion thought Jon was just as much in love with Dany as he was, and even likens Jon to Jaime. But Jon never answered him or nodded or confirmed in any way that Tyrion was right. And even though Jaime is a mirror for him in the story, and Cersei has been paralleled with Dany throughout the series, other than their relationship being considered incestuous by Westeros, Jon/Dany are not the new Jaime/Cersei, and definitely not at this point in the story.

Jaime and Cersei are twins. Jon and Dany are two sides of the same coin while being aunt and nephew. Jaime and Cersei grew up together. Jon and Dany did not. Jaime and Cersei were raised to be Lannister first. Jon was a bastard in the Stark family and is taught family is important. Dany was raissed on the run and taught that the Targaryens are the rightful ruling family and that the IT/Westeros is theirs by right. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is considered forbidden due to it being incestuous (something Westeros is trying to get away from after Aerys). Jon and Dany’s relationship is not considered forbidden (because no one really knows who Jon is yet). The only similarity the two relationships share is that Cersei/Dany become queen and Jaime/Jon become a sort of knight/advisor role to each of them, as well as both individuals being related by blood. 

And this is why Jon repeats Aemon’s line in that 8x06 jail cell scene after Tyrion talks about being in love with Dany, Jon being in love with Dany, and compares him to Jaime. Because Aemon’s dialogue to Jon back in season 1 confirms exactly what choice Jon made in the end:

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

8x06 script: “Jon knows what it means for those he loves most”

Jon chose Love over Duty. He protected Sansa like Ned protected him. It came full circle. 

Edit 4/23/21: credit goes to @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir​ for catching that Ned died dishonoring himself for love as well. And funnily enough, Sansa was also one of the ones he wanted to protect when making that decision, choosing to confess his treason. 

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

RIGHT, she always wants the upper hand. No equals. Good point! So one last question as we are on a roll! Now, if we accept that Dany believes she loves Jon and Jon's feelings for Dany are maybe love, maybe part infatuation/lust and part political. WTF was going on with Jon and Sansa? I felt they kinda had that "love triangle framing" but the show never committed to it. Was it just a mistake and bad audience interpretation? Some days I'm convinced the show hints at it and other days I don't know.

Lol absolutely, my friend! Oooo, yes I would love to dig into this with you. I’m warning you that possibly another 100 page paper may be headed your way. ;-)

Jon & Sansa - the would they/wouldn’t they pair. It’s a loaded question with an even more loaded answer but I will try my best.

They definitely were going for a love triangle. There was no mistake, I don’t think, or even bad audience interpretation or any shippers wearing shipping goggles for the triangle or either of those pairings. I think it was all very intentional and we picked up on it because of them doing it intentionally.

Like you mentioned, the framing, the promos, the cast interviews, the story, the 8x06 script confirming Sansa loves Jon and Jon knows it, hell even the editing -- all of it lead up to exactly what we saw playing out on screen. And I believe they did this for one reason & one reason only (sadly): to be a contributing factor to Dany’s fall. To cause Dany paranoia not only because of her feelings for Jon, but also as a political opponent (& rival queen, like that tense moment in 8x04 where Dany makes sure to say “under their rightful queen” at Sansa and Sansa’s chin lift). I personally didn’t care for this portion of the story they chose to tell in that last season (and I know a lot of people like to say “Jon and Sansa as a ship is weird, they’re siblings, even the show said they only love each other like siblings” to which I say “its GoT for crying out loud, the Starks have married cousins before, Jon and Sansa were not close growing up & have been separated for years now” & then point to all below, the 8x06 script confirmation of Jon knowing that Sansa loves him, and ask why Sansa was a point of contention for Dany then when it comes to Jon at all if there wasn’t something there, it doesn’t make sense, but I digress). There are so many similarities (maybe not as many as there are differences between them but they’re there) between the two characters. And while I understand Sansa’s suspicion of Dany being an actual tyrant and it’s all in character, I didn’t care for them having two of the strongest female characters on the show essentially fighting over a man when it was about so much more than that for both of them. But alas, that’s what we got. 

Before the 8x06 script confirming the love triangle angle they went for, they definitely showed:

Sansa giving heart eyes to Jon in 8x04 (0:08 - x), her jealousy to Dany and Jon’s warm smile exchange & getting up to leave right after that moment

her heartbroken expression in her argument with Jon when asking if he bent the knee to save the North or because he loved Dany in 8x01��(which of course, we never got a textual answer for from Jon himself)

Dany suspecting jealousy in her convo with Sansa in 8x02 with “you know he loves you” “and that bothers you?” and then Dany’s look trying to gauge if that’s the case

Sansa’s “why her?” when watching Dany and the dragons flying above Winterfell & her emotional reaction to Tyrion saying that Jon has told him that he’s not a Stark (which I think had more to do with her being upset that he still thinks this no matter how many times she’s told him otherwise, that she’s losing him, as family & as someone she loves) (2:27 - x)

her expression when saying goodbye to Jon at the dock in 8x06 (2:05 - x, I think this particular part was meant to be multi-layered, he’s her family that she’s losing, she’s in love with him, she couldn’t save him from his fate, she’s sorry that she had to tell his secret and break his trust, she’s sorry that he had to be the one to kill Dany to save them & the world by extension, she regrets that she can’t get him freed or restored as the King in the North, that she couldn’t keep him completely safe, all of it -- not to mention in the script, this is the part where it mentions that Jon knows Sansa loves him but he can’t forgive her for telling her secret and what it led to, which I personally think over time he would have, she’s still his family and he killed his love to keep her safe but moving on)

plus all of Sansa’s hoping for Jon to return & mentions of him in season 7

Littlefinger’s knowing expression (2:37 - x) as Sansa watches Jon depart from Winterfell after he was choked/threatened by him in response to Littlefinger telling Jon that he loves Sansa like he did Cat

It was all meant to set up this love triangle, if you will.

Personally, my feelings on it are complicated because on one hand, I’m glad that it confirmed everything I had been picking up on watching the show, especially from 6x04 and on. On the other hand, I was annoyed because they confirmed Sansa’s feelings but not explicitly textually, and only used them to help further along Dany’s story in the end while making Sansa look like the horrible villain (like they were trying to make her a Littlefinger 2.0), regardless of how her story ended. I remember a lot of people actually hating on Sansa for that decision that she made and I was there holding my hand up going “wait, do you know her character, though? do you not realize she didn’t tell his secret and break his trust to get at Dany or to get back at Jon? that she actually did it to save his life? have you ever seen the movie Gladiator? you can’t kill someone publicly without reason in this universe, not if you’re going to be sitting on an iron chair in this country and are hoping to come across as the savior of the people, the benevolent but strong queen, a secret is much easier to snuff out, folks.” That’s one of the ways I believe Sansa’s characterization got muddled in the end. Everything she did, she did to protect Jon and her family as well as the North, and Arya confirms it in dialogue in 8x01, what Sansa’s true motivations were at the time (not to mention David Nutter’s direction to Sophie for the courtyard scene with Dany “This is your house”) and that’s why Arya stood fast with her. But I’m going off on a tangent, sorry, back to the Jonsa/love triangle framing.

Here’s what I believe on this despite the obvious plot device they turned the love triangle setup into:

For Jonerys, they promo’ed it heavily for the last season, right? There was this:

And of course this:

They had been given a love scene in 7x07

Dany’s costume from 7x06 to 8x03 was meant to indicate that Dany was in love with Jon as reported by Michele Clapton, the (brilliant) costume designer

they even had their own love theme “Truth” that was being played during some, if not most, of their scenes

They were purposely framed: 

the shot of them coming out of the cave together in 7x04

them sitting at the table in the great hall together in 8x01 (which they definitely threw Sansa in there as well)

the shot of them closing the door in the boat cabin in 7x07

them standing together talking about the dragonglass in 7x03 with the dragons in the background

them walking back to the castle in 7x05 after Dany returns from battle

them talking privately in the dragonpit 7x07 while waiting for Tyrion

them walking up to the dragons in 8x01

them watching the Dothraki attack the White Walkers in 8x03 from the mountaintop

them framing Tyrion in the middle when the White Walkers arrive at Winterfell in 8x02 (because let’s face it Tyrion will be coming between them in a way in 8x06)

them standing & facing Lyanna’s statue in the crypt in 8x02

them standing at the waterfall in 8x01 and kissing

them on dragons at the same time in 8x03 in battle mode

the whole framing of their warm smile exchange in 8x04 and then them standing together in the bedroom scene in the same episode

them standing together in the destroyed throne room in 8x06

They did all of that to show that this is a couple and a power couple at that, which could possibly turn into a ruling couple. Even at the premiere of the final season, I remember at the time seeing a photo circulating around this site, showing that Sophie, Kit, and Emilia were placed within vicinity of each other when the cast took the stage, and even then it was obvious not only that they were playing up the Jonerys angle but also the love triangle framing (especially with this promo at 1:11 x). They knew they had an audience for that particular angle but in this last season, they brought it to the forefront, just not in the way anyone would expect (in their minds). That’s why they had the cast (namely Kit and Sophie) drumming up PR since season 7 (and possibly earlier), hinting and teasing that there would be so much tension between Jon and Sansa, that there would be a power struggle (wtf? what power struggle? because she questioned a decision of his & it showcased just how different he was from rulers before him like Joffrey & showed us he was a good ruler, one she believes in? sure, Jan, power struggle, sure) and all of that good stuff. Because what did everyone expect to be endgame? 

And those who didn’t that maybe thought Jon might be in love with Sansa or vice versa, or even if there was going to be another romance for Jon or Sansa or both: 

And the thing D&D and the show kept saying? “Subvert expectations” -- that was their whole goal while trying to tell this story

Personally, I don’t think they ever intended to make either pairing endgame. I believe they wanted people to think one or the other, but I don’t think they ever intended to go further than that (that I’m aware of, I should say). I know there were some rumors that supposedly they had planned for a Jonsa endgame all along, and had even shot scenes for one, but I don’t think they did (if I’m wrong, I would be more than happy to be). And the reason I don’t think they did besides for the love triangle to be a plot device contributing to the end they had in mind for all three characters? The way they ended everyone else’s arcs that did not make a lick of sense. I think Jonsa was heavily foreshadowed as Ned and Cat 2.0 but I think they planned to do it only to bring this to the viewers’ minds in order to make Sansa a romantic and political rival, enough that Dany sees the threat, Jon knows it, and it influences Sansa’s decisions enough that it also affects Jon’s and Dany’s decisions.

As much framing as they did for Jonerys, they also did for Jonsa. The only difference was that it began more almost subtle (though the framing was screaming loudly even back when they were building up their forces to take back Winterfell in season 6), Sansa wasn’t a queen yet, and she didn’t have dragons or a direwolf pack behind her. This is just my personal opinion, but I think Sansa was always meant to play a part in this triangle, like I mentioned Sansa and Dany have many similarities, they also show the contrast between both ladies in Jon’s life as well as how they would rule as queens (while hinting he would be the King half of each relationship):

I don’t remember where this post is (if I find it again, I’ll come back and edit, I want to give them proper credit) but I know I saw it on here somewhere. Roz confirms in season 3 that when Sansa was born, they rang the bells all day in Winterfell. (x) When Dany was born, not only was there a great storm with dogs howling all night (which further proves she is one of the two threats to Westeros like GRRM said) (x) but what was going on while she made the decision to torch KL? They were ringing the bells to surrender (x)

Sansa organizes the defense for Jon (like a Queen Regent would do), handles the Littlefinger situation, and rules the North while the pack makes its way back home so to speak in season 7 all while Jon is away; granted Dany already has her armies, she is already a queen, so she doesn’t need to do any of this and she does go to North to assist Jon in the Great War & save Jon and the guys in 7x06 but she also chooses to burn all of the supplies in the battle with the Lannisters in 7x04, doesn’t really concern herself with the little things like food (I know she has a Council for that but I think they show this contrast purposely to show she’s not really a ruler) and gets annoyed when that is questioned (granted Sansa was a bit snarky here but it was a very good point to make and actually echoes Jon’s own ruling method/concerns from season 5 as Lord Commander)

Sansa brings reinforcements for Jon in 6x09 using her connections so to speak just like Dany shows up to save Jon in 7x06 & brings her forces north in 8x01 to assist in the Great War

Dany is shown ruling in 8x02 when Jaime Lannister arrives but eventually she is outvoted (which is a nice way of putting it lol) by Sansa and Jon who agrees with the logic of getting every person they can get to fight this war - but they also make sure to show that while Dany isn’t listening to Jaime or Tyrion (as her Hand), Sansa listens to Brienne (her sworn sword) and that factors into her decision making, meaning she will weigh everything and not let anger or emotion cloud the issue & she will take things under advisement before so doing

the convo that takes place in 8x02 between Dany and Sansa, when Dany walks into the library, Sansa is seen giving instructions to keep the gates open for more people to come for safety to Royce who gives her respect after, and the bare minimum respect to Dany as he leaves - we also see Sansa thinking of everything outside the Great War box by asking about what happens afterwards and after they defeat Cersei, and then of course we see Dany’s narrow scope of an answer “I take the iron throne” and she has no answer for what after which launches Sansa into steel mode & asking again about the North more strongly

after their convo, we see Sansa and Dany walking in and standing in front of Theon and his men. Theon gives Dany her due respect as their queen but he makes it clear who he is there to address, who he is there to fight for, and gives Sansa her due respect as well. But we also see Sansa’s reaction to Theon pledging to fight for them as we see Dany’s reaction to all of this and her confusion, seeing it’s not duty that Theon is fighting for, but love, love for Sansa & his chosen family -- more importantly, love that Dany doesn’t have which she confirms in 8x04 and 8x05

We see Sansa make the point in the battle planning scene in 8x04 about the men needing to rest, that the generals need to be spoken to. Dany who feels she has waited long enough after she came to fight the Great War alongside Jon doesn’t want to hear this. But it actually is a very good point to make & consider, as we know. Yes, Dany still won in the end, but possibly she wouldn’t have lost Missandei (we can only assume) or Rhaegal or anymore men or wouldn’t have even razed KL to the ground (possibly). But because she didn’t want to wait and it was Sansa who made that point, it’s immediately dismissed. 

We see Sansa as someone who would go to war for her family by the dragonpit scene in 8x06 - while she’s in love and they’re threatening the guy she’s in love with who is another member of her family who is being held captive, she is not unleashing fury unless Jon gets hurt which is confirmed by her dialogue to Grey Worm; yes, Dany holds back in 8x04 when Tyrion attempts to compromise with Qyburn & Cersei while they hold Missandei captive & Euron has already killed Rhaegal, she did not attack KL as soon as she landed in Westeros, but the desire to was always there & showed to us in moments throughout the last 2 seasons, never mind all of the hints we were given of what would happen if she came over to Westeros before then

Another contrast is how Dany handles executions vs how Sansa handles them - both are brutal of course and not fun, but how they were conducted says a lot (though they both definitely have in common that they both swing the sword so to speak after they pass the sentence) - Sansa gave Littlefinger his chance to defend himself as he asked though no one would help him, Varys was never given that chance (even if she told him what she would do to him if she discovered him betraying her, which in a way he did look her in the eye first and tell her like she asked but she ignored him and I don’t think that constitutes as a full betrayal, he was never given a trial like setting, only a chance to say his last words, which fun fact that Cersei does the same with Missandei and slightly weirder but I suppose it was weird at the time since Jon was fresh back from the dead, Jon in season 6 with his murderers, though the crimes are: Littlefinger - getting Ned Stark beheaded and starting the Lannister/Stark conflict, Varys - treason, attempt to overthrow a ruler, Missandei - being in the wrong place at the wrong time & for shock value, Night’s Watch murdering squad - murdering Jon so all different I suppose if I’m being fair, but the styles of executions...I’m just saying)

Sorry, I ran off on a tangent there for a minute but I think it all relates to the whole framing of this love triangle and Jonsa itself. Jonsa was definitely going to be a thing, maybe not the way we thought it would, but it was definitely brought to the forefront in season 8. And they purposely hooked us with the framing they gave Jonsa alone as Ned and Cat 2.0. Like Robb, Jon is named King in the North. Instead of the Young Wolf, he is the White Wolf. His costumes and hair styles are meant as callbacks to Ned. Sansa’s own look is meant to be a callback to Cat though she has different hairstyles and different costumes. Her dress in 8x04 at the feast has a scale-like look to it and this is also meant to call back to the Tully side of the family (which is interesting because she’s a Stark through and through yet in this moment, a moment where we see her giving heart eyes to Jon, she is wearing a dress meant to callback to her mother while Jon had just been sitting at the head of the table where Ned would have sat...yep). There were tons of shots framing them as the ruling couple of Winterfell, as Ned and Cat come again:

Oh and this gem in comparison to the hand shot up above for Jonerys:

Not to mention the callbacks in other ways:

Ned choking Littlefinger in season 1 when going to meet Cat in a brothel --> Jon choking Littlefinger in the crypt in 7x02 after the latter admits he’s in love with Sansa, just like her mother

Ned & Cat watching Bran practicing archery in the courtyard before they are interrupted --> Jon (and Sansa with Davos) in 7x02 watching people practicing archery in the courtyard as they discuss Tyrion’s scroll; Jon & Sansa talking in 7x01 above the courtyard when they are interrupted)

This brilliant video shows so many parallels, visually and textually, that show the Ned/Cat & Jon/Sansa callbacks so much better than I ever could

Michele Clapton is one hell of a brilliant costume designer. She is the one who said the costumes on the characters will hint at their desires. She is the one who went in depth on what certain costumes or accessories mean, so much so that they tell their own story outside of the acting, framing, music, and dialogue. She’s really brilliant. Jon was in a similar costume to Ned in 6x09 in the tent scene and then during the Battle of the Bastards. Then, Jon was in Stark clothing up until the end of 8x02, until he was in a sigil-less costume (funnily enough after he is having his identity crisis) though he still maintains the Stark cloak. He continues to don that cloak, except at the feast in 8x04. 

Though when he goes to battle in 8x05, he is wearing the Stark emblem as expected, since he’s leading the Northmen into the fight. But then Arya shows up at the end after Tyrion has been arrested, as Jon watches Dany walking away which funnily enough they’re playing a Targaryen-esque theme again, and boom there’s Arya and his choice is in his face again but moving on. Then when he goes to talk to Tyrion, he has no Stark clothing, all sigil-less again. (I think this was done because he still hadn’t made a decision yet while they also were trying to keep the audience in the dark as to what would happen). But when he goes to talk to Dany, even though his clothing is sigil-less, his outfit looks very familiar to what Ned and Robb have worn in the past (indicating stealthily that he had made his decision, not to kill Dany, but that he was a Stark). Sansa’s crown has two wolves at the top, meant to symbolize the pack/her family as was her coronation dress. In my opinion, I don’t think she ever gave up hope that Jon or Arya would return home at some point.

So when it comes to Jonsa, I don’t agree completely with what they did but I do think those who rooted for them as a pairing or just their characters individually were left a very generous open ending so that others could take it and do what they would with it (fanfic, fanart, etc), that this open ending could make room for GRRM’s own ending in the last two books (I’m not sure how this will go in the books, if he even has any plans for it, but I have seen a lot of meta circulating on this site from the book readers who like the idea of the pairing showing clues they’ve picked up that there could be a hint to a Jonsa ending). 

To answer your question with a long lengthy answer (sorry!), yes I think they intended to frame Jonsa romantically but not have Jon reciprocate or confirm/deny textually (or even have Sansa put words to it textually). Because they weren’t going to go with one of the predictable endings after all of the hinting/foreshadowing had been laid, (terrible writing to use the Ned/Cat thing as a red herring since the Starks were the underdogs to begin with, no pun intended) GRRM even says himself you can’t just suddenly change it, or do framing to build up something only so you can use it later on as a red herring and then go “gotcha! you didn’t expect that, did you? Oh I’ll give you Jon and Dany but not how you expect, oh I’ll give you Jon and Sansa but not how you expect, oh I’ll give you Jon as a king but not how you expect, expectations and predictability are the scourge that must be subverted at all costs” so they can pat themselves on the back with a “job well done” at fooling the audience and how they shocked them and go “OMG I did not see that coming!” I say the same for Jonerys with the pregnancy/child talk and even their framing, though at least they followed through on the romance part of it textually (regardless of story intentions). 

And they definitely intended there to be a love triangle between Dany, Jon, and Sansa:

(the last one is I think meant to show the ruling portion, especially as Dany as the head, but it also shows these were the three main characters when it came to power, despite Cersei of course - though I think Jaime represents that Lannister reminder here as well & she’s being discussed so we don’t forget who still sits on the IT - and despite all the supporting players that go into the whole story)

The whole funeral scene in 8x04 (x) - we see Dany mourning Jorah, then Sansa mourning Theon and then who do they show afterwards? Jon. Then they show Dany walking back to her side, then Sansa walking back to hers in the wide shot. In 4:42, in the wide shot, it’s Sansa, Jon, and then Dany at the funeral pyres, watching them burn. Even when they’re walking away, they’re framed again with Dany in the middle of Jon and Sansa. Then they show Dany’s face, then Sansa’s. It’s just nuts. (to me, this whole scenario gave it away that we opened with two queens mourning their two knights/courtly lovers if you will, and then the rest which just proved more to me that this was a love triangle and that Sansa was in the running to be a queen just as much as Dany and Cersei were). We also see the scene where Jon studies Lyanna Mormont’s body and then turns to look at Dany who is just looking at him, waiting for him to give the signal to light the pyres. I might be reading too much into it but I find it interesting that Lyanna is the one he is going to burn, the same girl who presses Jon when he returns in 8x01 for giving up his crown & holds his feet to the fire, that she was the first to proclaim him as her king in 6x10 - x, first to come to Jon & Sansa’s aid in season 6 that we were shown though that was also due to Davos’ intervention, that she was loyal to House Stark even back when Stannis was around & this shot is followed by him looking at Dany, the reason he is no longer King in the North.

And how many times did Dany mention Sansa to Jon over that season after meeting her? Why was Sansa the one (I mean chosen story wise) to break the secret and be the catalyst for Varys to attempt to usurp Dany with Jon? That Dany was bothered by the most besides Cersei? Yes as a rival queen, a political rival, sure, but she mentions Sansa to Jon far too many times for it to be strictly that. She mentions Cersei a fair bit, too, but the tone is very different, even after Missandei being executed and Rhaegal being killed. Cersei is a bug to be crushed that simply stands in her way and has taken things from her that she should have never touched (the IT, Missandei, Rhaegal) but Sansa... Sansa is almost mentioned with as much vitriol (though way less name calling) by Dany as she is by Cersei. (The War of Five Kings? I think this really became the War of Three Queens at some point)

While Jon chose to protect his family, Arya was not pushing for Jon to kill Dany, she was only pushing for Jon to wake up and realize that he’s not safe since he would always be considered a threat to Dany (x) and would eventually end up being killed (”I know a killer when I see one”). And while I believe Arya would have stood by Sansa loyally and never backed down (that would have put her in danger in Jon’s mind solely, since he doesn’t know about her faceless training), Sansa was really the one that he knew wouldn’t bow down to Dany. The dialogue in that scene “Try telling Sansa” in 8x06, Tyrion mentioning Jon’s sisters and then Sansa specifically in that jail scene in the same episode (though I know he did this to also get through to Jon, exploiting this weak point) (x), Jon’s question to Dany in the throne room later on “what about everyone else? what about all of the other people who think they know what’s good?” and Dany’s “they don’t get to choose” (x) followed by Jon’s look afterwards...he knows, he also knows Sansa won’t back down and she’ll eventually be executed most likely the same way Varys & the Tarlys were (this is confirmed in the script with the line “Jon understands what this means for the people he loves the most” & he remembers Dany’s line in her speech to the Unsullied & the Dothraki mentioning Winterfell), he makes his decision right then and it weighs heavy on him but he does it - he ultimately lived up to his promise that he made back in 6x09 “I’ll protect you, I promise” to Sansa though she doubted it was possible at the time. (x)

Plus, I’m also looking at Kit’s acting choices here, the Master of Microexpressions himself:

(x) (x) (3:37 - x) - and just to point this out for the whole thing above, isn’t it funny they go from a shot of Jon after Sansa walks away that they go to Torumnd and Brienne, a redhead whose affections are not returned, sure it’s meant to be comedic and obviously Jon is not disgusted by Sansa but also...eh, maybe I’m reading too much into that editing choice...)

This in sync movement as well as framing here (0:48, and before this, just to note, Sansa’s horse keeps pace with Jon’s and she keeps pace with him while walking until the fight breaks out, while also speaking up and keeping in the conversation, meaning not only is she trying to be heard but she’s on an equal level with Jon, they’re a team trying to take Winterfell back, she has the Stark name & he has the military experience - x)

Why the breathlessness, Kit & Sophie? Why acting choices? (3:36 - x) (1:02 with step forward after - x) (1:35, this little inhale right here - x) (1:54 - his shocked reaction to seeing the Starks & his inhale and who is front and center in the lineup? & why that last look after [what I think he’s doing] memorizing Sansa’s & Arya’s faces for the last time, 4:46 when Sansa is not his favorite sibling & they lined them up by affection level almost for Jon with Sansa being the furthest back? x)

It was definitely portrayed as romantic, almost as much as Jonerys was, to feed into the love triangle theme later on they wanted to present. And while the scripts hadn’t been written yet for season 8, D&D did confirm they had started planning the show’s end around the time season 6 was being shot. They also worked with GRRM on certain planning of the final season, they said through video calls or something like that (I’m not sure if they discussed this part of it at all but I’m sure they discussed Dany and Jon and Dany’s fall and what could contribute to it). Benioff also said that the relationship between Jon and Sansa would “be crucial to watch” (though at the time, he was talking about the conflict between them, that Sansa doesn’t trust Jon, didn’t tell him about the KotV, etc). 

I think the love triangle was intentional, I think framing Jon and Sansa as the second coming of Ned & Cat was intentional, and I think Sansa having feelings for Jon & their romantic framing/coding was very intentional. I just don’t think the Jonsa endgame (as far as I know) or the Jonerys endgame was intended to be an HEA for either one at the end.

It was always going to come down to Jon having to choose one house or the other, which family, but also choose which queen. In the end, as we know, he chose the Starks, the family he’s always been with and loves, and kept his promise to Sansa. Dany broke the wheel, sure, but Jon ended up being the “shield that guards the realms of men” by taking out the other threat for Westeros, making room for Sansa to remain safely in her home (which is what she’s always wanted) and not under anyone’s thumb or boot heel. Jon took that safety away when he brought Dany up North (though he had to) but thankfully, he restored it even if he wishes that it didn’t have to happen in that way, even if he continues to question if what he did was right (it was, even though I love Dany, she wasn’t going to stop). Sansa was in love with the idea of love as a child, the stories about princes and knights, we know this canonically about her character (more from the books, but I think they intimated it in season 1 with the whole Joffrey arc). I think in her eyes, Jon is that prince, that knight, especially after she saw how he was as a king, even if his decisions frustrated her at times. I think she trusted him after they take back Winterfell (though she didn’t care for his decision to bend the knee and now we see that she had good reason) but she never naively did, if that makes sense. She still kept her wits about her, and even though I don’t think she ever expected Jon to do what he did in the end, killing Dany, I think she still hoped he would be safe and would she, and by extension Arya (should she return) and Bran, and that maybe hopefully someday Jon would come back home. She still had her feelings but she accepted that Jon had made his choice (even if she didn’t understand it or agree) and it wasn’t her or the Starks (from that convo with Tyrion in 8x04). But in the end, Jon did choose her and the Starks, and absolutely proved himself a Stark, and part of the pack.

It’s almost wasted potential, but I think that’s what they were kind of going for. I know the actors themselves balked at the idea of Jonsa as a romantic pairing (Sophie’s response at a comic con when a fan mentioned Jonsa as a ship, Kit’s recent reaction on a video call or panel with “that’s weird” when someone mentioned Jonsa as a ship, etc) but after all of this, you can’t tell me that’s not what they were shooting for even if they never intended for it to became overtly textual like Jonerys did, even if it was only used to push Dany towards her fall in the end. Bittersweet, indeed.

So, my friend, I hope this very long post answers that question for you. I’d be very curious to hear what you think, too! <3

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

I was looking through some gifs of GOT and I saw the Jon/Dany boat scene. As a book reader and not a show watcher I was surprised but then laughed. That has to be THE worst sex scene I have ever scene. They literally straight as boards, not a single hair out of place, Jon looks disturbed and then closes his eyes and just seems push through it. Plus the Bran voice over and creepy Tyrion lurking. What was that? There isn’t a single iota of passion or romance! Am I missing something?

Hey there, Nonnie!

Oh my goodness, I completely agree with you. You are not missing a single thing! There was no romance or even passion, like you said. Imho, it was a very boring sex scene, and they only used it to illustrate what was really going on in the show around them. Not to mention, they purposely had Dany staring into Jon's eyes ("love comes in at the eyes"), Jon's hesitance, her starting out on top in a way while making out with him, and then him taking control and being on top. I honestly think it was also meant to contrast with her love scene with Drogo in that tent where she takes control back in season 1.

Plus, I also feel as if the show very purposely displayed this big love scene in that way, too. Like you mentioned with Jon's hesitance, his face half in shadow but Dany's is fully bright and able to be seen, Bran's voiceover, and Tyrion's perv/creeper act. And they didn't even show Dany and Jon's supposed first kiss, they just went straight into the boatsex! Soft lighting/candlelight indicates romance, sure, but to have his face half in shadow and not hers...I think that's a very big tell right there. Either he's not as much in love with her as the audience is being led to believe, he's hiding something, or both.

I think they were also trying to show that this may not be a romance for the ages and that there may not be an HEA in store for them as a couple. There are so many signs as to why it appears that Jon may not feel the same as Dany does for him in this moment: involving his past with Ygritte, his family, his show!wildling arc, not to mention the warped power dynamics between Jon and Dany that to me are very apparent before the boatsex scene even happens, and just how Jon's showverse character absolutely would not stay in character should he give himself over to the romance, throwing all caution to the wind.

I'm not sure if you're aware of what happens in the end for these two on the show, Nonnie, but if not, I won't spoil it. I will say, though, it is quite a wild ride.

I myself have not read past Book 2 but it should be interesting to see if GRRM pairs these two characters up in the last two books, romantically or platonically. From what I hear, book!Dany and book!Jon are somewhat different than their showverse counterparts.

We shall see. ;-) Thank you so much for the ask, Nonnie! I love discussing GoT. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. <3

[sheikah]

whoa wtf someone faked their own death just to get you to lose followers? why??? like???

***This post is cutting off halfway through on mobile. You need the full explanation so please view on desktop***

Yeah dude… it was this summer. Basically, as it became clear that Jonerys was in fact canon, some of the antis that had been extremely sure of themselves sort of… snapped. And as a big Jonerys blog, I received a lot of their ensuing tantrums. I’ll tell the story under the cut, or you can see the whole crazy history of what happened here since I tagged it all lol.

So around that time, one person in particular sent me this ask from her fashion sideblog. It’s what started the whole mess. Ten days later, she got on that sideblog to see that I had answered it and gotten over 250 notes on it, and it really upset her that so many people agreed with me that Dany is not, in fact, the Mad Queen. She reblogged it from a sideblog cursing me out, so I blocked that sideblog, not at that moment realizing that the sideblog and the fashion blog were the same person since ten days had gone by since I received the ask. So then she started getting on other side blogs. At first it was just a handful. It was obvious they were all her, though, because they had almost identical content. Just enough posts to keep the URL safe from staff deletion due to inactivity, but nothing more. On these sideblogs she would reblog my content with hateful and harassing captions. Each time she did, I would block the blog, but she would reappear with another one. When I was blocking faster than she could log onto new blogs, she got frustrated and started spamming my notes by tagging me dozens and dozens of times in replies to her posts. She also made a bunch of callout posts about me and reblogged them on all these sideblogs. I also received an anon during this–presumably from her–telling me to kill myself. I blocked the anon (which blocks an IP address) and the attacks from her stopped for a few hours. I’m guessing she went to another internet connection or switched to phone data, and then started doing it all again, but without sending me inbox messages this time so I couldn’t block her other IP. 

I was meanwhile sending her DMs on all these blogs begging her to leave me alone and warning her that I would report her and share her URLs with my followers (so they could also report) if she didn’t. After a day went by and she didn’t heed my warnings, I did those things. That’s what finally stopped it all. Most of her sideblogs were deactivated.

There was literally nothing I could do to make this stop and I counted over 25 blogs from her before I had reported her enough to make her stop. I shared her URLs for these blogs with my followers to get help reporting her.

About a week went by and I thought that it was finally over. But then she made a post on that original fashion side blog (the first time she had used this blog since the original ask was sent, so I didn’t connect the dots and hadn’t blocked the fashion blog). She made a post there telling a fake story in which I was apparently the one bullying her and sicking my followers on her, and she claimed we told her to kill herself. This is an outright lie. She tagged me in this post, citing me as the reason for her own apparent suicide, and then left the blog (that wasn’t very active anyway), trying to make the last post there look like a suicide note. 

This got a lot of attention, because she reblogged it on her slew of sideblogs. Lots of people tagged staff and I’m guessing she got in trouble since I had also reported her before that for harassing me from all of her blogs. While this supposed suicide note got widespread attention, I got dozens and dozens of messages from people imploring me to reach out to her and save her life, or shaming me for “pushing her to suicide.” It’s the reason why to this day I have my IM function shut off for anyone I don’t follow. It was insane how many messages I got. I treated her suicide note as serious and half believed it at the time. I apologized to her (though I’d done nothing wrong) just in case and joined others in tagging staff and trying to talk her down on the post.

A day later I received the asks below from a blog with no content at all (hmmmm. suspicious, no?). These screenshots are actually from that sideblog that sent them because when I didn’t publish them, they just reposted what they sent me on the sideblog so it could still get out somehow.

You can connect the dots here–clearly this is the original person who was harassing me, posing as their own “friend” to try and guilt and manipulate me (I would ask anyone reading this not to contact this person and start shit again, please. I never want to talk to them again). Obviously I didn’t publish it, which is why she reposted them on the sideblog. I responded privately telling the person that I was the one who had been bullied and that I absolutely would not be making the post she requested guilting my own followers for something they didn’t do.

So at that point she had failed at chasing me off tumblr and getting me to post any more about her and give her any more attention or make myself look bad on her behalf. Two days went by and I’m guessing she regretted ruining her fashion blog over her random and inexplicable hatred of me and Daenerys Targaryen.  A new post appeared on the fashion blog (the whole blog is deleted now, probably by staff and not of her own volition). This time she claimed to be her own cousin who had inherited her blog after her suicide. It was an obvious ruse and her own followers turned on her then and scolded her for faking her suicide. Many of the people who had messaged me asking me to help her or fussing at me before reached out to me to apologize, seeing her “cousin” post and realizing their mistake. When she saw that, she said (still pretending to be the cousin) that she would have to delete the blog because her parents found it. That was the last I heard from her for a little while. She thinks I don’t know her main blog, but I do. It’s only out of a strong aversion to confrontation that I don’t share her main. She slipped up and liked two of the posts she made on her obscure sideblogs that had no content or posts other than the hate she was posting at me. So for those random empty sideblogs to have any followers is very suspicious, and her “likes” were the only notes these posts got. And the likes came from a prominent (at that time) GoT blog that had a lot of the same views that she shared in her hate posts to me, and I quickly realized that GoT blog was her main blog, and the only one she didn’t outright attack me from–she just used it to “like” her deranged posts to make it look like someone was supporting what she was doing to me. The last time she contacted me was through about 50, yes 50, anons she sent me while the GoT s7 finale was airing a couple weeks later. She had gone through my personal tag and looked up everything about me she could find, and then sent me extremely personal and specific hate asks about everything. She knew I’d be watching the finale so I wouldn’t be able to block her quickly, giving her plenty time to send me a shitload of stuff. It’s my own fault for being open and honest on this blog and literally showing my face, but what can I say? I love my life and am happy to share it on my blog. Anyway, the stuff she said was pretty disturbing. I think if I had been an even slightly less stable person, such cruelty could have driven me off of tumblr altogether or maybe even to self-harm. But as it is I remembered that she’s an insignificant and hateful person and brushed it off. I just blocked her IP and it deleted them all at once. And that’s the whole crazy story .