#anti tyrion lannister

[catofoldstones]

Sansa Stark whenever the psycho bitch who killed her father or the next top contenders for Westeros’ most traumatised unaware pedophiles try to info dump & project their secrets/plans/opinions on her

[daenerysstormreborn]

“You don’t like Tyrion because he’s a man you don’t like Tyrion because he’s ugly you don’t like Tyrion because he’s disabled wah” no actually I don’t like Tyrion because of his attitude towards women. I think he’s a product of his environment and I do feel sympathy for him. The way he’s been treated all his life is horrific and Tywin Lannister is a monster. Tyrion is intelligent and funny and a brilliant strategist, and his wisdom is very valuable. But his attitude toward women is unforgivable. I don’t like Tyrion because of shit like this:

The girl’s mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.

“I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer.

“If it please m’lord.”

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

—Tyrion I, ADwD

He doesn’t give these women his empathy. He takes delight in making this woman feel fear. He takes delight in her hatred of him. It’s rapey. My ire in this way is not reserved for Tyrion, of course. I feel the same way about Theon and Victarion, although they’re not main characters like Tyrion, so I don’t feel as strongly about them. That said, he’s not even close to my least favorite major character. That honor is reserved for Littlefinger’s groomer ass

[alaynasansa]

Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine ?

Sansa III - A Storm of Swords

Where are the so-called feminist fans when 12-year-old Sansa Stark is forcibly married to a man twice her age who specifically chose to marry her over a woman his own age because he's attracted to a preteen and wants to steal her birthright ?

Ah yes they think she's ungrateful

[alicenttully]

sorry not sorry but if you're a tyrion stan talking about how "selfish" sansa is in her tag and how she can never have a good relationship with her sister, I'm 100% gonna think you're just using arya as a shield because you know you can't call sansa selfish for the things you wish you could

[growingstrong2019]

If only Dany had listened to her and not Tyrion, she could’ve took Kingslanding without losing missandei and Rhaegal. And probably wouldn’t of gone insane and burnt Kingslanding to the ground.

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

I’m completely sure that Lancel Lannister will not only survive to the end of the series, but also inherit Casterly Rock after Cersei and her children die. She always wanted to be Tywin’s heir, and resented Jaime for getting that by virtue of his gender, so what better narrative punishment than the inheritance she always wanted going to the cousin she sexually abused? Lancel looks like Jaime and only wanted to be like him growing up, so it makes sense if his endgame is becoming the Lord of the Westerlands, becoming what Jaime could’ve been if he hadn't given up his lands and titles for Cersei.

Not to mention that GRRM will probably want to resolve the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks before the series’ end, and unfortunately for all the pedo shippers who wanted Sansa’s forced marriage to Tyrion to become the cornerstone of peace, Lancel and Sansa being the ones that sign the armistice is more thematically coherent. She saved his life during the Battle of the Blackwater even though he was her enemy, and a Lannister always pays his debts. Peace will be born from an act of mercy, not from Tywin’s attempt to steal a girl’s inheritance and subjugate the North.

[redwolf17]

So i'm curious why did you decide to kill Tyrion at the Blackwater. Don't get me wrong I despise Tyrion and he deserves all the humiliation and rejections he gets in Storm. I was just asking because I wondered how Tyrion would have reacted to Sansa calling Tywin a cowardly oathbreaker in public.

Hi anon! Totally a fair question. Someone else also asked about Tyrion recently over on Ao3, so I'm gonna copy/paste my answer.

GRRM loves Tyrion so, so much.

I… do not. While Tyrion is a very well written character, I do not enjoy him. Yes, Tyrion has his moments of kindness and generosity, he has some witty lines and compelling scenes... but I just cannot get over how vicious he can be. Yes, he suffered horrific abuse from Tywin which informs his determination to punch down against others. Yes, the ableism he faces sucks, and no one should have to endure it. That informs his actions; he is not cruel solely for the sake of being cruel.

But. But. This is a man whose reaction to Tywin's slaughter of Masha Heddle for the crime of being a hepless bystander was to reproach her pitiful corpse for events completely beyond her control. This is a man who sent Bronn to grab Shae (or rather, the prettiest whore he could find) like he was shopping for a carpet; Tyrion's chapters are steeped in some of the worst misogyny of any POV. Yes, Cersei is an incompetent asshole, but Tyrion constantly antagonizes her to his own detriment (just as he antagonized Catelyn and Lysa previously), and his contempt for Cersei and his "jokes" about wanting to rape her are disgusting. This is a man who creeped on the "beautiful" 12 year old Sansa throughout ACOK and BARELY managed not to rape her during ASOS.

I swear, the show whitewashes Tyrion so aggressively, people forget that in the books Tyrion made Sansa strip naked, HE stripped naked, he groped her breast, he made her look at his naked, erect penis, and only then, when he saw how terrified/repulsed Sansa was, did he finally stop. Not because he suddenly grew a conscience, but because he resented Sansa for not wanting him, for not pretending to want him, and blamed it on his looks/dwarfism rather than acknowledging she would have likely been just as terrified with ANY Lannister, because she's a 12 year old hostage facing imminent rape!

Tyrion murders Shae for the crime of being in Tywin's bed, as if she had any choice about being there. He resents her for testifying against him, as if Shae, a random sex worker, could have said no to Cersei and refused to bear witness. He wants to burn the whole Vale of Arryn in retribution for Lysa being a dick which, yes, she was, but his desire for retribution is outsized to say the least). Tyrion consistently resents the smallfolk for not worshipping him even though he puts 0 effort into PR whatsoever. He threatens the bedwarmer in Illyrio's house with rape and murder; he DOES rape the poor "sunset girl" later at a brothel.

GRRM loves Tyrion as a grey-and-getting-darker villain, and gives him some of the most unnecessary, bloated chapters throughout the series. GRRM sees Tyrion offer crumbs of kindness to Jon, to Bran, and thinks that somehow tips the scales against all the terrible things Tyrion does. But what other good things does Tyrion do? Like, I'm not giving him a medal for not raping Sansa, not raping terrified 12 year old girls is a LOW bar to clear! What other good deeds has Tyrion done?

Aaaaanyway, after all that rambling, here's my thoughts on Tyrion in TWQ. I really, REALLY had no interest in doing a twist on his book canon arc, which meant my options for what to do with him were pretty open. I could have done a redemption arc, but frankly, I didn't want to. It would require a LOT of time and effort to do it properly, and plenty of other fics have "redeemed" Tyrion (although usually by ignoring his vicious misogyny rather than by confronting it; or they just depict him as heroic from the start because the show nuked his characterization).

And I had zero interest in making Tyrion an ongoing villain, which is the approach some other fics have taken. Reading his ADWD chapters is punishment enough, let alone trying to write something that grotesque. Not to mention the... uh... not so great history of fiction often ignoring disabled people except to depict them as villains or helpless, agency-free pawns like poor Lollys Stokeworth. GRRM... sorta tries to handle disability with nuance, but I don't think he always hits the mark. Side note, Paul the Pious, Edythe, Bran, Jaime, and a plethora of disabled side characters both good and bad are my effort to push back on that trend.

So, by Part II, I already had a vague idea that TWQ was going to spiral into a larger tale, and I knew that doing anything with Tyrion after Part II would require a LOT of work I wasn't interested in doing. So... I decided not to do it. Writing fanfic is a hobby for fun, and developing an entire Tyrion arc I found worth telling did not sound fun. Especially since I knew I was going to force myself to tackle both Dany in Essos and the Others, which were/are a headache and a half but essential to the overall story. So... karma bit Tyrion in the ass, and a combo of his wildfire (which he used on his own men!) and Cersei (maybe breaking her arm was a bad idea?) finished him off.

[long-claw]

actually can't believe that the song that, in the books, was used to blackmail tyrion and sung to himself as he murdered shae, a song that essentially follows his descent into violence... was sung by ed sheeran to arya in the show.

[jonsaslove]

What is the "core 5" that has been disputed?

There's way better posts about this out there but it's basically from a super old interview (I think?) where GRRM that said the five key characters in the series are Arya, Jon, Bran, Dany, and Tyrion.

Fans who subscribe to this use it as irrefutable proof that Sansa is irrelevant and unimportant to the story even though GRRM said things to counteract this many times. And even if those are the "key 5" that does not diminish potential importance of other characters, not just Sansa! (Catelyn & Ned, Jaime & Cersei, the Greyjoy and Martell plots, even characters who don't get POV chapters!) The books have changed so much since he said that and he's literally been writing them for like 30 years now???

Sansa's arc specifically changed significantly from original outlines where she was just meant to cause tension in the Stark family. People who hold this key 5 as gospel also often believe in a Targ restoration and even the old outline with the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle...

I digress.

But also if we're looking just at chapter counts across the series...Tyrion has 49, Jon has 42, Arya has 34, Dany has 31, and Sansa and Cat are tied for fifth with 25. Bran only comes in 6th with 21.

I don't think the chapter counts are indicative of anything, but I do think the fact that GRRM likes writing Tyrion is quite obvious lmao.

All of that being said, I don't put much stock in what other people interpret to be true about characters or plot, I trust my own eyes and interpretations of things, and that tells me that the Starks (all of them) are the heart of the story and always will be. The Lannisters and the Targaryens (and the dead) are key enemies for their family and Tyrion and Daenerys are the figureheads for those conflicts, hence their chapter counts. GRRM likes a long character arc, and both Tyrion and Daenerys are on clear downward descents imo, so if people want them to be in the "key 5" that's fine, because they're there for different reasons than they assume.

To finish off, a lot of these theories anti Sansa and anti Jonsas cling to are strawman arguments that fall apart under the closest bit of inspection. I don't claim to be some all knowing GRRM prophet haha, but from my POV all these things are pretty clear.

Thanks anon :)

[catofoldstones]

I always forget that Tyrion has met Benjen, and that Benjen smelled rat the moment he met Tyrion lol.

[atopvisenyashill]

this tyrion chapter where he spends the whole time laughing about racist dornish jokes is making me want to restart my “you fucks are all weird about dorne” meta

[agentrouka-blog]

what do you think are some double standards regarding sansa in the fandom? (Non shipping) Thanks x

It's hard to narrow it down to individual instances because it's so prevalent across the books. Generally, Sansa tends to be ascribed the worst possible intentions, even where they make no sense, and she is denied the complexity that other characters are granted by readers.

I have seen chapter reviews of her wedding to Tyrion that spent more time on what Tyrion was feeling than on Sansa, the actual POV character. With little to no mention of her traumatic experience of facing marital rape that is only averted (grudgingly!) at the last possible moment, because they are too focused on how poor Tyrion was humiliated by her not kneeling for him, how this must be bringing up bad memories of his own sexual trauma - while he is busy traumatizing Sansa. Speculating how this reveals a villainous side to Sansa. It's dehumanizing how her valid perspective is unacknowledged or erased, and people don't even realize it because they are so used to discounting the validity of the female perspective as conditional. Sure, it's not great being forced into marriage and groped by an unattractive man twice your age but surely it being Tyrion - who is so nice and who saved her that one time - should be enough to convince Sansa to make an effort to accept it and stop making him feel bad about it? Can we turn the focus on the man's feelings again, please?

Sansa is a lithmus test for internalized misogyny for a reason.

[sayruq]

Wait wait pause about the key five thing do the ship girl stans unironically like tyrion? Seriously? The guy who literally raped a slave girl? And almost raped sansa? The guy who killed a girl whom he raped since she was eighteen? The guy who's misogynistic towards almost every single woman he meets in the story? The guy who in reaction to being told that a lord wife's was raped and his smallfolk killed was literally 'it is what it is'? THATS one of the guys they root for??

I mean I get dany, she's likeable and a revolutionary, jons vanilla but I get it, they don't even think of bran and barely mention him, and we all know how they continuously erase Sansa's importance despite her being part of the main six (who are the actual main characters in the books and the 20 year old draft). But tyrion? Then again why am I not surprised that they like a dude who sexually assaulted sansa... the jokes right themselves at this point.

You have to remember the important thing about the whole Key 5 thing is the delusion that Sansa

isn't important

isn't a main character

will disappear from the story soon (preferably as the child bride to some violent paedophile)

Everything else, like whether or not they like Tyrion or Bran or Jon or Dany, varies.

But yeah a lot of them like him or at least believe he'll play a role in saving the world from the Others which is so laughable for all the reasons you listed

[alicenttully]

tyrion threatens to rape tommen if cersei doesn't comply and also thinks its a good idea to bring a 13yo joffrey to a brothel. but somehow i don't see people accusing tyrion of being dangerous to his nephews in that way, just cersei when they sexualise her memories of nursing

[sanktasansa]

King Viserys: When people try to convince me to marry a 12 year old girl for political gain, I simply don't. R.I.P. to book!Tyrion, but I'm different.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

I know Septa Lemore will going to have some role in future but I really dislike how she was written to provide some titillation to Tyrion. Her AWOIAF main art is standing nude. It's like she has no problem with Tyrion.

I’m not really a fan of that either. I guess she was shown as titillating in the books despite allegedly being a septa to cast doubt on that. And for it to be confirmed she’d given birth before, she would’ve had to be naked so Tyrion could see her stomach’s stretch marks. However, we get a sharper side to her in JonCon’s POV, so there’s no reason why he couldn’t have been the one to tell us about the birth except to preserve the mystery. Also you’re right; Tyrion is at his most disgusting in ADWD and is in between threatening to kill a sex slave (at Illyrio’s) and raping another sex slave (in Volantis) when he meets Lemore, so that she’d be charmed by him is strange.

As for the main AWOIAF art (which seems to have been changed to the second one down), there’s no excuse for it. Even Tyrion says Lemore is 40ish and still handsome, whereas the art has her a much younger looking, flawless model type from the back. Why we couldn’t see her face, when she’s in her septa’s robes or even the merchant’s daughter disguise, is beyond me, but the artist seems prominent in the fandom and maybe even knows GRRM like some of the others (like Amoka). Still, just because Tyrion cares less about her mysterious past than her body doesn’t mean the readers have to as well.