#atenism

[a-witch-in-endor]

i have a religon question. we all have indigenous gods, right? especially in 'the east.' do abrahamic religions see these gods as fake, or just another part of god, or djinn and demons? I know there are people who are jewish or muslim or christian living in places with a large population that follows the kind of religion that respects ancestors and hometown gods; do those people also get to pay respects to those deities? do they get a pass for that because they, too, are technically protected by those indigenous gods even though they technically converted, but they're still of that land?

(could that be applied to earth kingdom spirits, bc there's so many of them?)

Hi! You are going to get a MONSTER response here, and it might not even fully answer your question, so... apologies in advance.

I want to start with your premise about indigenous gods. I think there are two elements that strike me as needing some kind of definition or clarification.

The first is: what does "indigenous gods" mean?

Please keep in mind that I am going to discuss indigenous RELIGION here, not "indigenous" as a political term.

I think there is a faulty assumption often applied to conversations around indigenous vs global religions that assumes that "indigenous religion" is polytheistic and "global religion" is monotheistic. One issue with that, in my opinion, is that "polytheistic" and "monotheistic" just aren't as meaningful as Western academia has historically stated. They are, in my opinion (though not only my opinion!), terms laden with Protestant ideology.

Protestantism and "Polytheism vs Monotheism":

Protestant religious scholarship tends to want to divide religion into the more primal, physical religious expression vs the more otherworldly, spiritual expression. Polytheism is, in Protestant academic mindset - excuse my language here, I'm making a point - a kind of barbaric, pre-enlightened, base form of religious expression. When religion gets more refined and intelligent and articulate, it sheds those earthly elements and ends up being monotheistic. This is Protestant in origin, specifically, because it is not only about how Protestant academics viewed religions like Hinduism or European indigenous religion, it's also about how they felt about Catholics and Jews. Catholics and Jews, from that mindset, might be "monotheistic", but they're holding onto the base, unrefined physicality of the old world. Catholics and Jews like physical rituals, physical prayer, rules around eating, etc. So yes, sure, they're monotheistic, but they haven't quite understood monotheism yet.

This is obviously not a nice thing to think about other peoples, but that's not what is interesting for our purposes. What's interesting is that Protestant academia has left much of the West with the above as their understanding of how religion functions. Even many atheists, by the way, will describe atheism as just the next step on that wrung; religion starts with polytheism, which is steeped in physical ritual and is obsessed with the earth, etc, then people became monotheistic and slowly let go of those earthly things, and then people got truly enlightened and realised there's no God at all. You can hear this in how some atheists will talk about believing in "one fewer god" than monotheists - that sense of the arc of progress and development.

Now, I hope you've already realised that I don't believe that's true. But let's break it down a little:

What is monotheism, and what is polytheism?

Judaism often has ascribed to it being the first monotheists. In some ways, that's true; in some ways, it isn't. There were One-God-isms that occurred elsewhere, too. Famously, in Egypt, the pharaoh Akhenaten led a religious reformation which narrowed worship down to Aten, the sun god. Nobody can agree on exactly what this was, but it was at least a focused religious expression. Likewise, Zoroastrianism was talking about a dual nature of reality in a way that could be read as monotheistic before the Jews were.

And when the Jews began to worship God as One, it wasn't exactly a clean break. It's actually fairly clear that the worship of the one we now just call God was really a slow development of theological focus, which we might now call henotheism: belief that multiple gods exist, but only worshipping one. Then that God slowly came to represent a kind of universality, especially with the experience of worshipping a land-based deity while in exile (first exile, starting c.586BCE).

So the Jewish belief in One God is a bit like Atenism: a focusing in on a particular god. Except this time, instead of one big religious revolution, it was a very slow religious development.

And if we want to divide not only into "monotheist" and "polytheist", but also into "indigenous" and "global", we're in very murky waters.

Indigenous Religion and Global Religion

Noting again that this can get politically tense because classifications of indigeneity are politically fraught. I'm interested in what makes a religion or culture indigenous, not in what that means for us politically.

Indigenous religion is difficult to define in a sentence, and so I will not try to do that. Here are multiple things that come together in indigenous religion in general instead: Indigenous religiosity is not distinguishable from culture itself. It's born of a land and developed over time. It might have its own myths about its origin (it likely will!), but those are often contradictory in some ways, because they are descriptions of important cultural narratives rather than histories. It tends to be uncentralised and is often slightly different depending on where you are in the land. It tends toward agricultural spirituality and concepts of holy soil. It is tied to an ethnic group and is generally uninterested in ideas of conversion (either into the group or out of the group); it may even be hostile to outsiders joining.

Global religions, on the other hand, tend to be much more planned-out. A global religion is born from a person or a group of people. One can see its birthplace and origin. It is devised in order to spread, and therefore is not attached to one land or to one ethnic group (so that it can move both geographically and through conversion of others into the group). It tends toward centralisation in an organisational capacity.

So. Is Atenism indigenous? ... Well, kind of yes, kind of no. Worship of Aten is born from the land of Egypt, but having a specific historical revolution makes it seem a little outside the "indigenous" definition. But it's definitely not global either. So we've immediately located something that doesn't seem to work well in a binary sense.

Is Judaism indigenous? ... Pretty clearly "yes". It's a land-based agricultural religion born of a particular land, with strong ethnic ties, that developed over time (rather than being born of a historical moment), that isn't interested in spreading or converting and wants to be in its holy land, is uncentralised and disorganised in nature, etc. But people don't tend to talk about Judaism that way, because Judaism has survived a 2,000-year exile, which is pretty unheard of. Once you've been kicked out of the land that long, it feels like it should be a global religion. But it doesn't fit any of the critera for that.

I think that Judaism being an indigenous religion that learned to survive outside the land is part of the reason that people have such a hard time understanding what Judaism is. It seems, from the outside, like it should function more similarly to Christianity and Islam. But in most ways, it just doesn't.

(Also, it would be remiss of me not to note: there's also a lot of political discomfort around calling Judaism an indigenous religion, because most indigenous cultures haven't reclaimed sacred land after being colonised, and the Modern State of Israel a) exists and b) is acting as an oppressive force. Some people will define groups as indigenous specifically only if they are currently being oppressed within their land of origin. As an academic, I think that's a poor definition, and it's certainly not helpful for defining indigenous religion. But I understand the political discomfort.)

Hinduism is also a really interesting example of this. Hinduism is similar to Judaism in some ways, as it's an indigenous, land-based religion that learned to exist outside of the sacred land. It often gets miscategorised on the basis that it's spread geographically (and unlike Judaism, that spread was not simply by outside force). In some ways, Hinduism acts like a global religion, but it doesn't really fit the bill.

Therefore:

a) "Indigenous religion" isn't always polytheistic (if that's even a meaningful term)

b) Some religions fit into neither category (such as Atenism)

c) Some religions fit into one category but aren't categorised that way by outsiders for various reasons (such as Judaism)

And to add another point: Buddhism is a great example of a global religion. Born of a historical person and moment, ease to spread and convert, not tied intrinsically to land. But try defining Buddhism according to the Protestant theistic categories. I dare you. So:

d) Global religions aren't always monotheistic

"Monotheism" and Global Religions

With that in mind, let's talk about Christianity and Islam. They are the major religions of the world. Christians make up around 30% of the world, and Muslims make up around 25% of the world. And frankly, the 15% of the world who call themselves secular/atheist/etc... I think meaningfully belong to Christianity and Islam, too. I know people often don't like that, but the idea that you have to believe something to belong to a religion is a specific religious idea that I don't ascribe to.

A lot of the time, the way that religion is conceptualised is therefore through a Christian or Muslim lens. (See: my point just above about "faith" in religion.) This has completely muddied the waters of how we discuss and conceptualise our own religions and cultures, let alone other peoples.

Your original question was about Abrahamic religion, so I'm going to try to address that here, but please keep in mind: in a question about indigenous gods, putting Judaism in the same realm as Christianity and Islam is dodgy territory and we need to walk it carefully.

"we all have indigenous gods, right? especially in 'the east.' do abrahamic religions see these gods as fake, or just another part of god, or djinn and demons?"

Judaism: Judaism is an evolution that occurred within Canaanite religion. It started with narrow worship of a local god and slowly universalised, especially when the Israelites were trying to survive outside the place of the local god. The seeds of that universalisation already existed before the first exile, which is likely why it worked. It had a confused relationship with the other local gods; outright worship of those "other gods" was frowned upon but still existed among the peoples, and that worship kind of melded into the narrow worship of the One God. You can see this in how many of the names of God that appear in the Bible are actually the names of the local Canaanite gods.

After the first exile, Judaism became more solid in its sense of theological universalism. Jonah is a great example of this as a book; Jonah was written post-exile (though set pre-exile), and it starts with an Israelite trying to run away from God. It seems absurd to us now, because we know that the Jewish God is universal, but the character of Jonah seems to honestly think he can escape God by leaving the land. The rest of the book is about Jonah's struggle to understand how his god also has a relationship with the people of Nineveh. It's a great example of the struggle of universalising theology.

(By-the-by, I think "universal theology" is a much more useful term than "monotheism", but that's a rant for another day.)

What began as a narrowing ("henotheism"), which was both pushing out and incorporating other local traditions, then had to contend with the worship of the oppressive forces of outside religion. Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans are all peoples who attacked, colonised, exiled, etc - and they all came in with their gods. The Greeks even instituted worship of their gods in our Temple. Our worship was made illegal by the colonisers. Relationship with "idol worship" was about relationship with those outside forces.

In short, the literature itself is very confused about what those gods actually are. Jews were certainly not supposed to worship them, and should go to great lengths to avoid them. (If we didn't, we probably wouldn't still exist, so: good shout.) Sometimes they get talked about like neighbouring gods, which is a holdover from the narrowing-days (where those other gods existed, but we worshipped our own native land-based god). Sometimes they get talked about as false idols created by people who are either misunderstanding reality or deliberately trying to have control over the divine (which developed more as the God-worship was universalised). The more universalised our theology became, the more we started shrugging of ideas of neighbouring gods that actually existed, and the more it became about the latter.

(Note: When Jews met religions that call a universal God something else, they would then tend to conclude that it's not idol worship. This developed when Judaism met Islam in more peaceful moments. The idea that non-Jewish religions could be something other than idolatry then came to include Christianity - but only kind of, because of the worshipping-a-person issue - and then religions like Sikhism much more easily. It's even arguable that religions like Hinduism aren't exactly "idol worship" for non-Jews, because many Hindus will describe what they believe in in universal terms - Brahman is first cause and all emanates from him - even if their worship includes references to "multiple gods". This does not mean Jews are allowed to worship that way.)

Christianity: Christianity was born in a specific historical moment, utilising previous Jewish and Hellenistic thought. It almost immediately became a religion of conversion (I would put that distinction at the year 50, with the Council of Jerusalem). Since it was born from a universalised theology, it already had the bones of the idea of a universal God; now, it also had the will to spread, both geographically (shrugging off major religious ties to the Holy Land) and religiously (not only could people convert, but people should convert). While Judaism was all about avoiding worship of other gods, Christianity became about converting those peoples.

Islam: Islam was born in a specific historical moment, utilising previous Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, and pre-Islamic Arabian thought. It immediately became a religion of conversion. In this sense, it's a lot more like Christianity than anything else, except Christianity developed most significantly after the death of Jesus. Islam got a lot more time in development with Mohammed. In some ways, I think this really benefitted Islam (though that's not to say some things didn't get... complicated, upon his death). It inherited from Christianity the sense that worship of other gods was something to be responded to with conversion.

"I know there are people who are jewish or muslim or christian living in places with a large population that follows the kind of religion that respects ancestors and hometown gods; do those people also get to pay respects to those deities? do they get a pass for that because they, too, are technically protected by those indigenous gods even though they technically converted, but they're still of that land?"

Short answer: no. Jews, Christians, and Muslims do not believe that those deities exist as separate to the universal God.

Longer answer for Judaism, because... well, I know more about lived Judaism than lived Christianity or Islam*:

(I recently said to someone IRL: I do have a degree in Catholic Theology, but I don't know anything about what Catholics ACTUALLY believe.)

It would be absolutely disallowed in Judaism to participate in worship of "other gods". Modern Jews will not believe those gods exist (at least, I've never come across that either IRL or in studies). However, Judaism does still hold that worship is a powerful thing and that Jews are not allowed to participate in worship of "other gods". Many Jews will say it's not worship of "other gods", it's just worship of the one universal God that is understood differently by different cultures. This does not change the fact that Jews are not allowed to participate in it.

(In fact, it's one of the three things a Jew should rather die than participate in. It's a little murkier than this, but basically: even under duress, even on pain of death, a Jew should never murder, commit sexual violence, or worship an idol.)

"(could that be applied to earth kingdom spirits, bc there's so many of them?)"

Yes, I think the Earth Kingdom in ATLA is supposed to function in an indigenous manner, specifically in indigenous religion as it acts over a wide spread of land. That is to say, like Hinduism, or like when you compare different arctic indigenous cultures or African indigenous cultures. There isn't a centralised force (like with the FN); it's local gods - or here, spirits - that have their own myths, etc.

Please note, I have avoided talking about nomadic cultures here on purpose, because this would be twice as long! This is not exhaustive at all. I hope it makes at least some sense.

[noosphe-re]

The solar disk Aten, of which Aten is a personification

[shrimptin]

[polyphanes]

Reading the Hermetica: CH XVIII

For this week’s Reading the Hermetica discussion, we’re continuing our reading and discussion of the Corpus Hermeticum (CH), specifically Book 18 (CH XVIII).  This text is entitled “On the soul hindered by the body’s affections”.  As ever, if you don’t have a copy of Copenhaver’s Hermetica, Salaman’s Way of Hermes, or Festugière/Nock’s Hermès Trismégiste (and I strongly urge you get at least one…

[arthurdrakoni]

Flag of Atenist Egypt

This is the flag of an Egypt where worship of the Aten managed to survive.  This is because Akhenaten, in our world known as the Heretic Pharaoh, went about his reforms in a bit more subtle way.  Instead of one god replacing many gods, Akhenaten created a belief system not unlike Zoroastrianism, Hinduism or Platonic Philosophy.  It is believed that above all is Aten, but he is complex and difficult to known in his highest form.  Therefore, to make himself known, Aten has sent out emanations of himself that were thought of as the gods of Egyptian Mythology.  The pharaoh is said to be able to commune directly with Aten and hold a special place in the new religion. 

The desire to spread the word of Aten to all corners of the globe lead Egypt to focus on expansion.  Even in the present day, thought their empire had since shrunken, they remain a major player of the world stage.  Their closest ally is Greece, whose religion is based around the veneration of the Agathon and is largely based around the writings of Plato and Aristotle.  In the past Egypt went through bouts of religious fanaticism, but today it is largely a secular society, those Atenism is still followed by most of the population.  The survival of Atenism meant that the Abrahamic Faiths never happened, so the geopolitical and cultural situation is quite different from out world.  

The black stands for the black fertile soil of the Nile River.  Black has been considered a symbol of good fortune ever since ancient times in Egypt.  The gold sun in the center of the flag is of course Aten itself. 

Link to the original flag on my blog: https://drakoniandgriffalco.blogspot.com/2016/02/flag-of-atenist-egypt.html?m=0

[iamanhonestman]

[sunthroughdarkclouds]

My attempt at the ancient power couple, Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Midjourney has a hard time with Akhenaten's bizarre physical characteristics, but it was probably just stylization specific to the Atenist period, anyway.

[shamsaddinmegalommatis]

Κοσμάς Μεγαλομμάτης, Ατόν: Παγκόσμια Μυθολογία-1989

Κοσμάς Μεγαλομμάτης, Ατόν: Παγκόσμια Μυθολογία, Ελληνική Εκπαιδευτική Εγκυκλοπαίδεια, 1989

Кузьма Мегаломматис, Атон: мировая мифология, Греческая педагогическая энциклопедия, 1989

Kosmas Megalommatis, Aton: Weltmythologie, Griechische Pädagogische Enzyklopädie, 1989

Kosmas Gözübüyükoğlu, Aton (veya Aten): Dünya Mitolojisi, Yunan Pedagoji Ansiklopedisi, 1989

قزمان ميغالوماتيس، آتون : اساطیر جهانی، دایره المعارف آموزشی یونانی، 1989

Côme Megalommatis, Aton: Mythologie mondiale, Encyclopédie pédagogique grecque, 1989

1989 قزمان ميغالوماتيس، آتون : الأساطير العالمية، الموسوعة التربوية اليونانية،

Cosimo Megalommatis, Aton (o Aten): mitologia mondiale, Enciclopedia pedagogica greca, 1989

Cosimo Megalommatis, Atón: mitología mundial, Enciclopedia pedagógica griega, 1989

Cosmas Megalommatis, Aten (or Aton): World Mythology, Greek Pedagogical Encyclopedia, 1989

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[dpargyle]

'dawn crests over the sack of aten's heirs'

(Sketchbook Pro, Realistic Paint Studio, Canva, PhotoMosh, & beFunky Photo Editor)

[streamingthruamerica]

Egypt: Gimme That Ol' Time Religion

Like many ancient civilizations, Egyptians were obsessed with religion and mythology. They pledged their love and devotion to more than 700 distinct deities entrusted to protect the natural order of all things (wind, water, sun, sky, etc.) from creation..

[pandeism]

Pandeism in the Ancient World, from Wikipedia’s Pandeism page.... #Wikipedia #Pandeism #AncientWorld #Heraclitus #Atenism #BhagavadGita #Xenophanes https://www.instagram.com/p/CmnyD54sqiF/?igshid=NGJjMDIxMWI=

[ava-of-shenanigans]

This is what I did for my Middle Egyptian practice today. If there are any ghosts of 18th dynasty Ancient Egyptians on tumblr then I hope they find this to be a funny meme.

(I might have gotten something wrong here since I’m still learning the language, but this was very fun to make, especially since already I knew how to spell all the words in it except for the names.)

Translation:

Says I: “May we get gods?”

Says the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Neferkheperura Akhenaten: “There is god at home.”

This god which is at home:

[evanescent-epiphanies]

MikaYuu Week 2023 Day 5: Modern AU/Museum Visit

As Yuu stared at the painting, a strange sense of melancholy washed over him. But it turned to shock when, glancing away, he saw art come to life standing beside him.

[anshiiiiin]

a feast (2019)

The guys with wings on the top of the picture are seraphs! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph 

And the guys at the bottom of the picture are atens! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aten

[sunthroughdarkclouds]

Nefertiti was King Tut's step-mom. Well, I mean, sort of. She was his dad's wife, probably his primary wife, but Tutankhamun's mom, Kiya, was also his dad's wife, probably at the same time.

Nefertiti was the Great Royal Wife of Akhenaten, the 18th dynasty pharaoh of ancient Egypt. She was a powerful and influential figure in her husband's court, and she played a key role in the religious reforms that Akhenaten instituted.

Nefertiti's name means "A Beautiful Woman Has Come." She was born in the early 14th century BCE, and she may have been the daughter of Ay, a high-ranking official in the court of Akhenaten's father, Amenhotep III.

Nefertiti and Akhenaten were married in the first year of his reign, and they had six daughters together. They were a powerful couple, and they helped to usher in a new era of religious reform in Egypt. Akhenaten abandoned the traditional polytheistic religion of Egypt and instead worshipped a single god, the sun god Aten. Nefertiti was a strong supporter of her husband's religious reforms, and she was often depicted in art wearing the Aten crown, which was the symbol of Atenism.

Nefertiti was a highly skilled diplomat, and she played a key role in Akhenaten's foreign policy. She corresponded with foreign rulers, and she even led a diplomatic mission to Mitanni, a powerful kingdom in northern Syria.

Nefertiti was a beloved figure in Egypt, and her beauty and grace were legendary. She is often depicted in art wearing elaborate jewelry and clothing, and her face is always serene and beautiful.

Nefertiti disappeared from the historical record in the 12th year of Akhenaten's reign. No one knows for sure what happened to her, but there are a few theories. One theory is that she died, another theory is that she was exiled, and a third theory is that she may have assumed the position of pharaoh, taking a new name and identity as a man.

[tijdvoormemes]

ik zag een tiktok en nu ben ik boos