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noemitenshi · 10 months

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The moon bathes your face in gentle light

A Troy Otto post s8 Imagine/story of how Tracy and him started to heal after the events of that horrible season.

The idea came to me after a conversation with @marrecarandgi so many thanks for that! It wouldn't exist without you 🧡

Let's jump into it.

As per our agreement, Troy Otto definitely 100% survived the stabbing by Madison. I'm not gonna be thinking too much about how (taking a page out of canon's book - they never explained how he survived the hit to the head nor getting stabbed by Alicia either. Guess he's just *that good*). So, Troy survives, though I'm sure it's not pretty. By the skin of his teeth, in immense pain, and fearing for his daughter. Maybe not so much her survival because he gave his best didn't he. But what his lie will do to her. Now that this didn't kill him (again, again it didn't kill him). And every waking hour he imagines Tracy with Madison, imagines Madison turning Tracy against *him*. And he wishes it would be enough to know she survives but of course it's not. It's a father's pain he's bearing now (on top of the gaping gut wound, though he probably did something about that...), the loss of his daughter. Not the end of her life but the end of her love. And he has to be patient now, has to *heal* and it takes time, he knows it does (he's been through this before). He can't rush these things but god he wishes he could, he feels he's going crazy with this, waiting. Waiting never was his strong suite, he'd always preferred to act, however rashly. Preferred to *do* not think. And now thinking is the only thing that he *can* do. It takes weeks. Months, before he is halfway fit again (and probably a lot of sheer dumb luck, again, don't think too much about this). Anyway, the point is, he knows how to fight for things, how to go on despite, *how to survive* and he puts his all into it now. So he may get his daughter back (don't think about her, don't think about her, just get better). And once he is, better, he's putting everything into finding her. He *has to*. And of course he does. Probably sneaks into the camp at night and slits Madison's throat (like he should've done way back in s3...). If Alicia's there I don't think she survives this either. And then he takes his daughter and they leave. Off into the sunset they ride (or, I guess, sunrise. Since it was night). Now. Probably both of them will have some new trauma to deal with. Troy for, well, having been stabbed and losing his daughter (even for a bit) and losing his men and their kids and the safe place to call him he almost had in his hands... and Tracy for having lived with the killer of her dad - and thinking that her father had died. So, it's a lot for both of them. And I think both of them only start feeling these things when they have one another again (Tracy because she finally feels safe again and Troy because now his mind can finally stop thinking nonstop about getting Tracy back and uh starts processing all that other shit). So they aren't in the best place, emotionally speaking. Troy is bitter (though he really tries with Tracy. I do think he is still good with her, there's just now an edge in him that wasn't there before). And Tracy... Tracy probably has nightmares and panic/anxiety attacks - probably also bursts of anger at her dad. This is difficult on both of them... probably reminding Troy of his own childhood (the bursts of almost unexplained anger) and he's gonna have to work extra hard not to react like his parents (in high-stress situations it is very likely to fall back to well-known behaviorial patterns after all and what he knows *really well* is how his parents dealt with him when he behaved "badly"). So no wonder is he bitter/moody. On top of it all they still don't have a place to call home and maybe are just wandering around in search for... something. Not even sure he feels like he could built a new community since he lost his men - from the way they were it seemed like they were together for a while now. That has got to hurt. And maybe he feels safer, wandering around, not staying anywhere too long. (Maybe he is trying to run away, from these feelings - not that he can. he knows that. but the urge is still in him and so he gives into this, for a little. he's already stretched so very thin, he can't fight himself on this front now, too).

And one night when they've been scouting a bit too long, they stumble into another person's camp. or, well, it's not really a camp, not even a fire going, that's why they didn't avoid this spot, just a man curled on the ground, right by a tree. He woke, of course, when Troy stumbled over his feet. He didn't hesitate to give Tracy the signal to get out of sight, NOW, while he regained his footing, hand going to the pistol on his side while he eyed the stranger, who was slowly straightening into a sitting position, blinking slowly.

"you!"

They both spoke simultaneously and Troy's hand twitched with the need to draw his weapon when he saw who that man was. He *knew* him. And the second he'd recognized him, he felt like fate had slapped him. On both cheeks. That was...

"crazy dog"

That couldn't be true. But it was, he was here. What where all these ghosts from his past doing here?! When would he finally find peace from all of that!??!

"Troy Otto..." Crazy Dog replied. *He* didn't seem tense. Didn't seem alarmed. He looked - different, too, then back at the ranch. And Troy wasn't sure if it was just his missing anger or - something else? Haggard, he realized, Crazy Dog was haggard. Seemed tired too or was that because he'd leaned his head against the tree trunk and continued to look at Troy silently. Troy furrowed his brows. That was... not at all the reaction he had expected. It was so out of left field that he heard himself ask

"aren't you gonna draw your weapon?"

God, what was he doing?! Did he *want* a violent confrontation?

"No." Crazy Dog's answer was - not firm, not really. But it still had an air of finality to it. It had come faster than anything else he said (or did) before, too. Troy blinked. Mouthed 'no' uncomprehendingly. What was going on? The Crazy Dog he remembered had been dead set on killing him - had only waited for Troy to give him a reason, *any* reason. This, now, was the perfect opportunity to do so. But he seemed wholly uninterested in that. Not even bothered by Troy standing in front of him. Not *threatened*. Troy pulled his lips back into a snarl.

"I'm gonna be taking your things," he announced. Didn't even know why. Did he *want* to anger the other man?

"Don't have much anyway," Crazy Dog said mildly and - what was wrong with him!? Didn't he *care*?!

"Dad?"

Troy froze. Tracy apparently had figured there was no danger - no wonder, Crazy Dog hadn't even risen, still leaning almost relaxed against the tree trunk; both their voices were calm and Troy hadn't drawn his own weapon either.

"Dad?" Crazy Dog repeated and Troy swallowed uncomfrotably. *Afraid*. Would that tidbit finally compell the other man to be cruel? Was that what it would take to bring the Crazy Dog of old to the forefront? And without him even noticing he'd stepped in front of Tracy, blocking her from Crazy Dog's view, his face a stony mask.

"Take it."

Troy couldn't quite process what Crazy Dog had said to him, it didn't make sense. Not even a little. He must've looked confused, because Crazy Dog repeated, "My things" and nodded to the backpack, "Take them all." And it looked like - was that a slight smile tugging at Crazy Dog's lips? Was he having a stroke!? Or was Troy? Something wasn't right - but then again, why would he look a gift horse in the mouth? So he leaned down and took the backpack - somehow still expecting to be stabbed in the back. But no. Nothing like that was happening. *Nothing* was happening, actually. Just Crazy Dog looking at him, still with that almost smile. Even when he slung the backpack over his shoulder nothing changed.

"Thank you" that was Tracy, coming to stand right besides Troy, looking at Crazy Dog curiously. Her words were honest and Troy had the urge to pull her back behind himself again. Especially when Crazy Dog's gaze slid to her. That was it, wasn't it? He'd do what Troy had feared, attack them after all. Why did Tracy have to go and draw his attention like that---

But nothing like that happened. The only thing moving were the corners of Crazy Dog's mouth, deepening the slight smile a little - so it actually looked like a smile now. Somehow it made him appear even more tired. *Exhausted*. That's what it was. That was why he looked so different to how Troy remembered him. Not the years etched on his face, nor even the haggardness. It was the air of defeat around him. He *never once* had seemed defeated back then... He nodded at Tracy, kindly - again something that didn't fit with Troy's experience with that man. His daughter was smiling back and Troy stared. Seeing her smile, especially towards strangers, had become so seldom these days. So seldom after - Madison.

Tracy caught his gaze and raised her eyebrows demandingly. What was she--- oh.

"Thanks," he mumbled quickly, and watched his daughter smile at him now sweetly. He grinned back.

What he wouldn't do to have her smile like that.

Tracy looked suddenly around, searchingly. Troy enjoyed watching her when she got like this. Curious, inquisitive. About to solve some kind of puzzle in her mind. It was a delight, getting to see how her brain worked.

"Uhm...should we maybe stay here, dad? Until morning?"

Today was just full of unexpected things wasn't it? Never could he have predicted her saying exactly those words. 'No!' was his first impulse, he did not want to stay longer around Crazy Dog than he had to. Taking his things probably was already a mistake. Made them spend more time than necessary here... But then, this wasn't the kind of dad he was. Had made sure of it. Painstakingly. So, he asked,

"Why do you say that?"

"...it's not the safest spot..." she mumbled. Oh. She wanted to make sure Crazy Dog was ok. That was... Troy didn't know what that was.

"That's alright," Crazy Dog said before Troy could think of a reply, "I'll get home at first light. Don't you worry about me." His voice was still wrong. Different now though. Different now that he was talking to Tracy. Not as... devoid as before.

"We really should get going." Troy didn't waste time trying to hurry Tracy along. Especially since Crazy Dog seemed to be doing the same.

"Dad!" Tracy was tugging at his shirt "Dad, we can get him home right?" Then she turned to Crazy Dog "Our car isn't far from here, we-"

"Tracy." Troy's voice wasn't loud, nor especially harsh but she still stopped speaking. She knew it was his no-nonsense tone. The one that said she didn't have all information, didn't see all consequences of her actions. She didn't like when he used it and couldn't wait to ask him *what exactly* she hadn't thought through.

"Go along now, I'll be fine."

Troy was strangely thankful to the other man for insisting on this - and he didn't want to be.

"You heard him," he said, taking Tracy's hand in his and then they were walking.

"Be careful!" Tracy said as if it were an invocation, her serious eyes boring into Crazy Dog's.

"You too," he answered her immediately. But his gaze caught Troy's. Troy did not know what to make of this. This whole interaction feeling unreal. It had him on edge in a strange way and he couldn't wait to get as far away from this as possible.

Of course it wasn't that easy.

And so he found himself driving back to that spot, opening his door and hissing

"get in"

to crazy dog. Crazy Dog looked as perplexed as Troy himself felt over the whole thing - but then, Tracy always did have a way to get what she wanted. He didn't know why he'd thought it would be different this time. She'd been adamant about helping that person that had so selflessly given up his things. Troy had wanted to point out that he didn't seem to *care* one way or another, but really, that wouldn't accomplish anything but make her sad. or worried. he wasn't sure which one was worse. so he just bit his tongue. He *had* told her who he was - Crazy Dog. She knew that name from his tales. And - he'd thought it would make her back down. She had - hesitated (and that had hurt him unexpectedly, the sudden *curling into herself*. Of course, figures of his past would incite that reaction. After what the last group had done...!) But she hadn't backed down in the end, weighing Crazy Dog's behavior towards them *now* more than anything else that had happened in the past.

And so Troy agreed to do what she wanted because - he hadn't seen her as animated, as *invested* since - since! Her time away from him had done a number on her. On both of them, but he'd gladly shoulder whatever needed to, just so she could be spared. But that wasn't how it worked and so he had been helpless to watch her be this subdued, quiet child since he'd... recued her from Madison. Had watched her be so unlike herself. Had tried to bring her back, of course, anything and everything he could think of but---no need to keep thinking about that. His kid was back, at least for now.

And so he was now watching Crazy Dog hesitantly get into the back of the truck.

"Where am I going?" Troy asked him, and this was maybe the strangest thing to happen that night. Asking Crazy Dog for directions. But the way Tracy was beaming more than made up for him and when the other man didn't immediately answer Troy turned his head to him.

"Where to?" he asked again and somehow his voice had turned softer. Crazy Dog's gaze met Troy's. And after a little sigh he told him.

The drive was maybe half an hour at the most - and no one seemed to feel the desire to speak. Not even Tracy. Or maybe that was just Tracy retreating into herself again. Though she didn't look subdued, quite the opposite actually. Maybe she was just content. That thought made Troy smile a little. Maybe she really was. The road turned from asphalt to dirt and after a while Troy could see a farmhouse at the end of it.

"That it?" he asked. Crazy Dog nodded.

"You can just let me out he---"

"We said we'd get you home and we will," Troy interrupted. Honestly, they were almost there.

Crazy Dog nodded.

Then, slowly he said,

"You can.. come in if you want. Stay - the night. It's late." Almost reluctantly.

Troy still felt a sliver of irrational danger just imagining Crazy Dog near his daughter - but his daughter was looking at him with big big eyes and he thought a real bed would do her some good.

"It is," was all he said. Was as much as he allowed himself to agree.

"It's so nice here!" Tracy exclaimed once her large eyes had taken in as much as they could of the living area.

"Yeah," Crazy Dog said in that slow way of his, "it is..." Then he looked at her, brows furrowed. "I don't even know your name."

"Tracy," Tracy said. Crazy Dog repeated her name softly.

"I'm Lee," he said then.

"Not Crazy Dog?" Of course his daughter wouldn't let something like rest - and frankly, Troy wanted to know the answer to that, too.

"Just Lee," Crazy Dog - Lee? said mildly and without stopping asked, "Want something to eat? I've got food in the kitchen"- he nodded towards a door behind which Troy guessed was said kitchen-"though I'm not the best cook so... it's straight out of the can..."

"I can cook," Troy said and then let ...Lee show him around.

"It's not much," *Lee* said, almost apologetically. He was right, it wasn't the best stocked kitchen. But it was better than what Tracy and him had had the last few days. Weeks.

"I can work with this," Troy announced. *Lee* nodded at him.

"Take what you need. I'll leave you to it."

When Lee went back to the living room, he saw that Tracy had cozied up on the couch. It looked precious, in a way nothing had for... for a while now and the ghost of a smile was again tugging at his lips. He was strangely glad they had accepted his offer to stay. Or maybe not so strange, the house feeling more alive now than... for a while now. He sat down on the chair besides the couch and watched Tracy doze. How strange to think that Troy Otto had a child - a very sweet one at that. But then, years had passed. Years in which he'd assumed him dead. He... wasn't saddened to find he'd been wrong in that. Or maybe he was just glad to see how well Tracy had it with *him* as dad. Lee would not have guessed that Troy would turn into an indulgent dad. Would not have guessed he'd turn into a *good* dad, but from everything he'd seen today exactly this had happened.

"You *are* Crazy Dog though, aren't you?" Tracy was suddenly looking straight at him, sharp sharp eyes boring into his. Oh yes, she was her father's daughter.

"That's not a name I'm using anymore," Lee said.

"You know each other from ..back at the ranch," she continued without acknowledging what he'd said. Lee nodded.

"My dad told me you wanted him dead... why are you helping us now?"

Oh she was quite brave, this one. He'd have expected nothing less of Troy Otto's child. Whatever could be said about the man, a lack of bravery wasn't it. But where the bravery was almost scary in its intensity in Troy, it was endearing in Tracy.

"That was then. This is now."

Apparently this wasn't a good enough answer for her because she asked, sharply,

"You don't want him dead anymore?"

"I've got no reason to," Lee told her. He didn't. Who cared what had happened years ago. He'd moved on. he'd built a whole new life---

"He robbed you."

Oh, so she *had* heard that part, hm. Still he disagreed,

"I freely gave it to you"

"...why are you helping us?"

Lee closed his eyes, unwilling to think about this, to let his mind wander there...

"You have no reason to," she said, emphasizing the words almost mockingly. A challenge.

"...I do," Lee said softly. Oh, did he ever and his heart squeezed uncomfortably, his throat closed up and he tried to swallow against it.

"Food's done!" Troy had appeared in the kitchen doorway - just at the right time, it seemed. "Come." With one last look at Lee, Tracy went.

Lee breathed a sigh of relief, he hadn't been sure how much more of her questions he could take before... He shook his head and focused on his breathing. Slow and deliberate. In. Pause. Out. Pause. In. Pause. Out. Pause. And on and on until it was the only thing filling his mind. And then some more.

A sudden noise made him flinch and open his eyes. A plate of steaming food was placed in front of him.

"I meant you, too, you know?" Troy told him casually. Then he went back to the kitchen. Lee blinked at the food. It smelled - good. Much better than... He sighed. Then he slowly started eating. He figured they'd be more comfortable without him in the kitchen.

After they were done eating, Lee showed them the bathroom and the master bedroom. He knew how important it was to be able to stay together, especially during night, during sleep, the most vulnerable time. He took the couch - just like he'd done the days before. Somehow sleep came easier to him today.

The next day Troy woke early. Tracy was still sleeping and so he let her, softly moving out of the room and downstairs. He wasn't sure if he was surprised or not to see *Lee* awake too. He was just sitting there, looking outside into the rain. Still like a statue.

"What's wrong with you?" slipped from Troy - no one could accuse him of having tact. (And honestly, he was about fed up with this version of Crazy Dog. With being on this strange edge the whole time. He'd rather have it out, he thought). Lee turned to him, eyes suddenly as cold and dark as he remembered.

"I'm not talking about that."

Well. That wasn't helpful at all. Made him angry in a petulant way. But then, *he* didn't want to be to start a fight. Didn't want to destroy this for Tracy. They'd leave here soon enough and then who cared what had happened to Crazy Dog. So he turned his attention to the outside, where Lee was staring. A beautiful garden. Flowers and vegetable patches filling it.

He wondered about the canned food.

"Quite a garden," he remarked.

"...Yeah."

Troy rolled his eyes and decided to go snoop a little. Was bound to be more interesting than a conversation with *him*. That unsettling version of Crazy Dog. He didn't want to be too obvious about it, so he didn't exactly rummage around in closets (though he itched to), instead looking at what was displayed. The books laying around (a suspicious lot of them *medical* though he supposed it made sense to learn as much as one could about these things - doctors were hard to come by these days..), the wide array of knick-knacks. He couldn't see a common thread there. Shells and necklaces, lighters and key chains, little toys and pens. Strewn all over the house from what Troy could see. Curious.

"Dad?!"

Tracy was awake, and from the sounds of it trying not to panic.

"I'm here!" Troy was quick to reply, already going for the stairs, taking two, three at a time, rushing to her. He should've thought of that! God damn, he really should've but then - this hadn't really been an issue until now, him not being near her when she woke up. Of course it made her panic. The moment he stepped foot on the second floor Tracy rushed into his arms and he picked her up, having to shift as to not tumble down the stairs with the force with which she'd thrown herself at him.

"I'm here," he murmured, stroking over her hair, "It's alright."

She clung to him and it didn't seem like she wanted to let go anytime soon. He just shrugged good-naturedly and decided to carry her downstairs. Breakfast would do her good.

The way she hid her face in the crook of his neck, the way she held on to him had him remember their days when she was a toddler. When they'd lost--- He'd thought they'd never get through that. He'd thought, without *her* he wouldn't be able to do this. To be a good parent. He'd clung to her just as much as she'd clung to him during those days. And they both had persevered. They would again. Even if the situation seemed impossible. They'd done it once before. They would again. She'd be fine, with time. She'd get over this. He fastened his hold around her.

After breakfast - which had been a somewhat strange and subdued affair (strange because Lee had again declined to eat with them and subdued because the panic still clung to Tracy it seemed. Not as immediate but Troy could still tell) - Tracy had wandered to the bookshelves, looking through them. Somehow that had made Lee move from his place on the chair, looking to the outside and he'd started a quiet conversation with her - from what Troy could tell, asking her what she liked to read, offering different things. He watched the two of them for a while and when he saw that Tracy was becoming more animated the more they spoke he felt a tenseness fall from him he hadn't been aware of holding. *She would be ok*. Of course she would be.

Just now the sun was peaking through the clouds, the rain finally having stopped. He was immediately drawn to the garden, wanting to take a closer look at the vegetables - maybe there was something he could use?

"I'll be outside," he announced to the other two. Those had now moved to the couch, both their noses inside a thick medical book. He had to smile. Tracy definitely had her thirst for knowledge from him - and he was proud of her for that. For asking questions, trying to figure out how everything worked. It was a good thing to be thirsty for in this world, where nothing was safe. Where you could not depend on others--- He stopped these thoughts cold, stepping into the garden, his sharp eyes taking everything in. Most plants were already withered - no wonder, it was late autumn. But he did spy a small pumpkin and - weren't those sweet potatoes? He sat to work.

Somehow he didn't only harvest the few sweet potatoes and the two pumpkins but had started to cut back the plants that needed it and take out the ones that wouldn't survive the winter - he hadn't even thought about it, his hands intimately knowing what to do. And once he realized what he was doing - late into his work - he stopped, breathless, blinking around and looking at his work. Then he shook his head at himself and couldn't stop an self-deprecating smile. He hadn't even made it half through the garden. So he straightened and walked through the rest of it - it was in need of tending too. Not that it was overgrown, clearly there was work put into it. Just - not for the last... weeks? And when his gaze caught by something shimmering almost silver-y he thought he understood why. He'd found the missing puzzle piece he hadn't even been aware he'd been searching for. There in the secluded corner of the garden stood a pale wooden cross, a name carved into it - Ri Ortego. And underneath it just one word. 'Beloved'. Troy's fingers traced the letters and he couldn't help himself, but he felt like whoever had carved them (*Lee*, who else) must've been shaking. That explained his strange behavior. It was grief. He pulled his hand back as if burned.

"You had a wife." Troy hadn't even fully entered the house that those words left his mouth. Lee flinched. It wasn't enough for Troy, so he spoke her name. "Ri, right?"

Lee stood abruptly and stomped into the kitchen. Troy took that to mean he was right - why else would Lee be upset. And it was clear that he was.

"Da~ad!" Apparently he wasn't the only one to get that, Tracy was looking at him disapprovingly, her eyes glinting dangerously. He almost shrugged but then thought better of it. This was not the time to be flip with her. So he just blinked and pressed his lips together. He'd lost a wife too, after all. No need to be so dramatic over it. "You should apologize," he heard his daughter say. The same tone he used when he demanded the same of her. It almost made him smile. Though the prospect of doing *that* didn't let him. It wasn't like he'd *meant* to hurt the other man. He'd just been after answers. But Tracy kept staring at him - and both knew he'd give in, just as he'd had last night. He took every opportunity he had to make his daughter happy, after all. So he sighed and went to the kitchen, carefully opening the door.

"Hey," he whispered, somewhat uncomfortable, not wanting to startle the other man. Lee was sitting at the kitchen table, his back turned towards the door, hunched over. He looked like--- "Uh, that before," Troy started to explain, "listen, I, I didn't--- uhm..." There was no reaction and Troy swallowed. He had expected to get at least something from the other man. "I didn't mean anything by it." He finally settled on as an explanation. *That* had an effect; Lee turned his head slowly towards Troy and Troy was glad to be done speaking because otherwise the next word would've gotten stuck in his throat - the misery in Lee's eye, the devastation on his face felt like it was stopping his heart. It felt *so familiar*.

"I'm sorry." It was the easiest thing to say, suddenly. "*I'm sorry*, Lee."

***

And that is how it will begin. Of course Troy and Tracy will stay in Lee's house. Tracy is doing lots better there than before when they were driving around and though Troy does feel unbalanced by Lee's grief, he still feels alright staying. For Tracy, he's telling himself at first (and let's be honest, seeing the mirror of past him in Lee is difficult - maybe he didn't have enough space to grieve Serena what with having to raise a kid, so it's gonna be bringing things up for him too. But it'll be good for him overall) but he's gonna enjoy it, too. Being here with someone that is supposed to want him dead but very much *doesn't* is doing wonders for his trauma. And over time they're gonna become friends and raise Tracy together. Not sure how/when it'll turn romantic - maybe I'll add to this once I have an idea.

#troy otto #tracy otto #ftwd #fear the walking dead #fanfic #imagine #beginning of a story #crazy dog #fluff #bittersweet #more sweet than bitter #hopeful #healing #beginning of the rest of their lives #my fic

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fluentmoviequoter · 5 months

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Okay so in 7x08 Hondo finds out from Nichelle (who was told by Annie lol) that Deac is retiring and there are a couple of scenes with the photo of OG team and Hondo's being all "Street just left, Luca retired, I can't lose Deac too" and this genuinely seems perminent.

Looking through the lens of final season I thought hum, whatever, okay, who cares, it's ending anyways. But now that obviously isn't true and I just cannot wrap my mind around the fact that writers have dug themselves a pretty weird hole. I guess it could've been worse and someone could've been killed off but still, all the heartfell goodbyes now make no sense if they are just going to reverse it and bring those characters back (which I will forgive them in that case because I don't care, I just want my men back) or, in my very biased opinion, if they don't bring them back you have... two main characters and a bunch of new kids which is literally now just a new show. And unfortunately, they didn't do their new characters justice at development either. I love them, but their stories just feel empty and fall flat in comparison to the OG team we knew.

I'm seriously curious how they managed to get yet another season when all the perception I saw about this season has been negative 🤷🏿‍♀️ And digging themselves out of this hole will be so hard for them, especially if they don't bring some/all the OGs for at least third or half of a season. They have 22 episodes so for their sake I hope they do the smart decision but looking at this dumpsterfire of a season, I'm not really holding my breath.

(Sorry for the lengthy message, I just had to vent a little)

~🧡

Annie Kay, mind your own business.😭

Don't apologize for the lengthy message! Thank you for sharing!

I actually watched a YouTube clip of the scene where Deacon says, "I wanted to be the one to tell you" but I didn't know Annie told Nichelle! One thing I did appreciate about that scene is the Hondo seemed genuinely upset that 20-David was breaking apart and wasn't the squad he had grown to love and trust anymore. That said, thank you for putting it in context and sharing all these great thoughts with me!!

I agree that the writers have put themselves and the characters in a very strange position going into season 8! Part of what makes it so weird to me is that from the very beginning of this season (even the announcement that the cancellation had been revoked), the writers claimed that everything would be tied together and ended nicely. And then with the s8 news, they've now added "but it also sets up another season." Because, like, you can't do both at the same time in my opinion. You can end it, or you can keep opportunities open for the next season. As you said, they've taken away those opportunities by ending story lines and eliminating character roles from the team and the show.

Your opinion on the flat characters and how the original cast was written out doesn't sound biased to me! It really does feel like a new show with every cast replacement they do, and unless they bring back the fan favorites who were there from day 1, I honestly don't see the point in watching or keeping the show on. You're 100% correct in saying it's a new show now, and it's not as good as it was.

"Looking at this dumpsterfire of a season" made me laugh!🤣 I was actually just talking to someone about how it got renewed. CBS claims that it's still one of their most-watched shows and averages 8.8 million or something viewers per episode (plus all the Netflix streams). HOWEVER, a bunch of people watching it doesn't mean it is good or needs to stay on! If they read any of the reviews or feedback, they'd know this! They're looking at numbers and not feedback, I think, which is the only reason they decided to keep it on. Personally, I'll be very surprised if s8 has many viewers as it airs.

Again, I wholly agree that the hole that they dug themselves into is a tricky one. If they continue without Luca, Street, and Deacon, they're going to lose a good number of viewers, but if they bring them back they run a risk of just making s7 pointless. In which case, people may assume s8 will be just as futile and inconsequential as s7. In the end, either way, they kinda screwed themselves. It seems like a lose/lose situation, and after a season of bad reviews and people begging for their favorite characters back, the future of S.W.A.T. seems pretty dismal.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts and if there's any other spoilers or anything you want to discuss or share with me, I'd love that! (I've heard that the whole Luca getting shot story line was poorly done, so if you have an opinion on that, I'm all ears👀)

#hanna's asks #swat cbs #swat spoilers #swat season 7 #swat season 7 spoilers

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autisticandroids · 4 years

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Very intriguing timely-wimey headcanon you got there, I'm curious how do you think hot girl!Castiel would have reacted to Dean trying to get with her, without knowing him to the depths of his soul would she/they be indifferent? Also if it's pre end of s8 and something happened in the past and he comes back and Cas acts like nothing happened (because of all the lobotomies) would Dean take it personally?

this headcanon

so here’s the thing. cas is, as a person, well. he’s very hedonistic, or perhaps, pleasure-seeking, with no impulse control. basically once dean somehow catches cas’ interest, it’s over for her. like, if dean manages to like. convince her to hang out with him? for a day or two? he would get into her pants. we know cas, all she needs is a little push and she’s mr. cause problems on purpose. he rebelled against heaven for dean after only knowing him for a couple months, i think he would fuck him after knowing him for a couple days.

like, it would take a really impressive first impression but here’s the thing. dean has cas’ handprint burned into his soul. his body is stitched together with cas’ grace (and imo cas intentionally left it there. you know. signing his work and all that). cas would recognize her own grace and be like “wow future me really did this? what the hell?” and then like...... dean would have all this knowledge of cas’ future actions, and cas would be like...... fascinated by the kind of person she could turn out to be. even if it was s5 dean, you know? like, she finds out she’s gonna fall from heaven! crazy! if it was later dean he would be cagier because cas has committed more crimes by that point and he wouldn’t wanna damage her self-image too much, but he would still tell her some stuff. and she would be intrigued. and she would be like “and i did it all for you? just because you asked me to?” and dean would suddenly get a little uncomfortable. also she might tell dean about all the grace inside his body and the mark on his soul, which would definitely cause him to feel some kinda way. the thing about cas is that she’s extremely horny. quite frankly if it was late season dean? and they were stuck together for a few days? she might come onto him.

anyway re: cas not remembering anything...... in order to keep myself sane, i have to imagine that time is self-consistent. like, dean can’t actually change the past because he was always there. otherwise i will go crazy. and there is some textual support for this, given that “the vessel” seemed to contain a self consistent stable timeloop, and also given that they canonically live in a mostly deterministic universe because of chuck. so like. dean had always already met kiss (and maybe kissed her) when they met in hell but cas hadn’t remembered it. maybe this had to do with why cas fell so hard in love with him when he pulled him out of hell. like. some madoka magica the fact that i loved you made it so that you went back in time and made me fall in love with you timelines wrapping around each other shit.

i think dean would have to see hot girl cas being taken away by the other angels at the end of their time together, which given that he’s already seen cas brainwashed in the rapture, like, he should be able to guess what happened. i don’t think he would be too mad that cas didn’t remember.

anyway. i can use whatever pronouns for castiel that i want.

#spn #asks #Anonymous

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suncaptor · 3 years

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So we're having a s7/s8 breakdown on this fine Saturday? Good. May I interest you in theese thoughts (this whole ask might include some wild speculation, I hope you're up for it, if no, please ignore and I will crawl back to my basement, also this got SO LONG I AM ALMOST ASHAMED, but I need to exchange thoughts with someone agsfsdghf):

Amelia was the original blurry wife for Sam. I remember at the time s8 was airing the fandom wasn't really fond of her because she wasn't very special as a character, she felt kind of boring (obviously the wincest/bibro side hated her for different reasons lol) and unfortunately she was very forgettable. She was literally Just Some Woman, a blank canvas. (idk if you agree but this is what I think). But. I think she was set up to be Sam's endgame if season 8 was the last one. He gets what he wanted - out of the hunter's life, white picket fence, a wife and a dog. And it was confirmed somewhere that she was written off due to the hate she received (spn fandom being spn fadom I am leaving this without comment). So that is why I believe she was gonna be the Blurry Wife of season 8, but she was written off....

....."But hey!", you might say, "Sam was the one doing the trials in season 8! So how can she be his endgame if he was going to lock up Hell and die?". I have an answer! Sam doesn't start the trials until 8x14, four episodes after he broke up with Amelia and chose Dean in 8x10. Up until then it was agreed that Dean was going to be the one to do the trials, it was changed last minute in the show (when Sam ends up killing the hellhound in 8x14) and part of me wonders how much it might reflect the last minute change in real life. counterpoint: spn got a renewal on February 11th 2013 and 8x14 was shot November 30th - December 11th 2012 so renewal is not the case, maybe just a general change of direction for the season? idk, BUT......

.... but maybe? now I am thinking. So they make Sam break up with Amelia to get rid of her and so he can do the trials. and he is going to die. so basically once again Sam is going to die in the finale as a sacrifice (like in Swan Song) (oh I just remembered 8x23 was titled Sacrifice. NICE). And now back to Dean and everything romantic that happened that I mentioned in those tags. Let's say they keep the 'I love you' in 8x17 (I am still writing all of this under the assumption that season 8 was going to be the last one). And Cas disappears. And now guess what. He is not in 8x18. He is not in 8x19 but you know who is? NAOMI with this epic line: "And yet you haven't warded this place against us. I know. You're hoping Castiel will return to you. I admire your loyalty. I only wish he felt the same way. I know you don't want to believe it, Dean, but we're on the same side – shutting the Gates of Hell, bringing Castiel in from the cold. Take a moment. Think about what I've said." literally WHAAAAT, what were we supposed to think at this point?!?!? IF THE 'I LOVE YOU' was kept in 8x17?! can you imagine?! (also sidenote: 8x19 is a buckleming episode where they kill off Benny. epic highs and lows, etc.)

So they aren't reunited until 8x22 (i mean last seconds of 8x21 but it doesn't really matter). And Dean is angry, and hurt and we have this piece of dialogue:

CASTIEL: Dean, I can go with you. A FEW SECONDS PASS BEFORE SPEAKING AGAIN Dean. I'm sorry. DEAN: For what? CASTIEL: For everything. DEAN" Everything? Like, uh... Like ignoring us? CASTIEL: Yes. DEAN: Or like bolting off with the Angel Tablet, then losing it 'cause you didn't trust me? You didn't trust me. CASTIEL: Yes. DEAN: Yeah. Nah, that's not gonna cut it. Not this time. So you can take your little apology and you cram it up your ass. CASTIEL: Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing. DEAN: Yeah, you always do.

still with me? ok. so then Cas is sad and wants to apologize and goes out to buy Dean beer and pie but Metatron finds him and they go on their little quest together. blah blah blah, Sam and Dean catch Crowley, they are in the church, Sam in beginning the ritual on Crowley when wild Cas appears and asks Dean for help because... he needs a Cupid's Bow for Metatron to lock up Heaven. and he asks for Dean's help. I mean at this moment I think everyone would have gotten the HINT. Dean leaves Sam with Crowley to do the trial by himself (he chooses to go with Cas this is important because the last time he saw Cas he was angry at him).

And then we have that infamous bar scene where Dean might still be hurt but now he is afraid of losing Cas AGAIN due to Heaven about to be locked up and he is like "ummm are you sure? you're -- you're boarding up Heaven, and you're locking the door behind you. you did a lot of damage up there, aren't you afraid the angels might kill you?" and Cas is like stone cold "yeah they might and I am sure about doing this" :( and then they witness as two dudes fall in love in the bar. hint hint again.

quick cut to Crowley who says: "Don't we all -- you, me -- we deserve to be loved. I deserve to be loved! I just want to be loved". hint hint Love is a whole theme of this episode

AND THEN Castiel's grace ends up being the last ingredient to cast out all angels from Heaven after a nephilim and cupid's bow. And it's brushed off with a no-homo line by Metatron: "I want you to live this new life to the fullest. Find a wife. Make babies." SURE. oh to get my hands on the original first drafts of those episodes... a girl can dream.

in conclusion I wonder what the ending would be here. Dean and Cas eventually reunite and finally talk it out? one can argue: "but why Cas didn't confess back when they were having their moment in the bar? :/" well, because, as he tells us himself, (actually he says it to Kevin prior to he bar scene, but it's easy to understand that he is also talking about himself here): "There is no out. Only duty. You are a Prophet of the Lord, always and forever... ...until the day you cease to exist, and then another Prophet takes your place. Now, are you clear as to the task before you? Then do it, and let's go." (now don't think about this line and Dean's quiet: "Are you sure? Aren't you afraid?" in the bar and Castiel's "Yeah I'm sure")

so then they finally reunite, both human and they find each other and Cas is like "My grace was the special last spell ingredient because ..................." and they would address the Crypt Scene confession finally, I guess. They arrive at the Church and Sam is dead (according to what we know now (if a soul was in hell it will always end up in hell thing) maybe he went to hell. maybe it's locked up but he is the one in charge Rowena-style?). So of course Dean is a wreck but he has Cas by his side. Holding hands as they bury Sam. I don't know but I want to know SO BADLY what they had originally planned here. I would literally willingly sell my kidney to read Carver's mind.

I AM DEEPLY SORRY FOR THIS ASK I HAD TO GET THIS OUT OF MY HEAD ILY <3333333333333

okay I have NO CLUE what they meant to do or the validity of the assumptions, but this is SO interesting and I agree with all your analysis of canon, except I also don't think that Cas like. understood at all or ever thought Dean's "I love you" meant what Dean did at this point xnkslfkdkdkskd so I see your draw to him specifying duty given his probable suicide rather than stay with Dean like he wants.

I also do wonder what they were doing with Sam in s8 it's very disjointed and out of character, so your guesses are VERY interesting. Amelia like made no sense Sam made no sense or the way Sam treated Benny (which I think was set up for Sam decided to choose hunting with Dean over her and Dean about Benny, so I don't know if she was meant to be endgame ever? but I have nooo clue what they could have meant for because the plot is all over the place in s8). anyways INTERESTING. I love all your thoughts thanks for sending this ask 💞💞

#and like to be clear I do view canon destiel VERY similarly to you. you get it.#incest mention #spn #supernatural #destiel #sam Winchester #samelia #s8 #sammy #dean winchester #castiel #cas #amelia richardson #amelia #incoherents #ask

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gascon-en-exil · 3 years

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A Game of Thrones 10th Anniversary Season Ranking: Part 2

Link to Part 1

Time for the bottom half of the list. The four seasons here will surprise no one, but the order might.

#5 Season 6

You can tell what I most what to talk about here...but there's an order to these things.

S6 actually has a bunch of great ideas, but they drown beneath the most slapdash plotting and character work the show has seen yet in order to set the stage for the narrower conflicts of the last two seasons. It's notorious for bringing back characters who haven't been seen in a season or longer only to kill them off (Balon Greyjoy, Osha, Hodor, the Blackfish, Rickon, Walder Frey) or awkwardly graft them back into the main plot (Sandor Clegane, Bran). There are plot threads that ought to be compelling but are too rushed in execution, like the siege of Riverrun, Littlefinger's hand in the Battle of the Bastards, or Daenerys's time back among the Dothraki and then finally getting the hell out of Meereen. Arya hits on the only interesting part of her two-season sojourn in Braavos - a stage play, of all things - only for it to stumble at the end with a disappointing offscreen death and some incomprehensible philosophy ahead of the start of her murder tour of Westeros. There's also so much cutting off the branches, enough to be conspicuous; the final shot of Daenerys leading an armada of about half the remaining cast she assembled partially offscreen says that better than anything else. Well, not anything....

Highlight: Without exaggeration, the opening of S6E10 is easily my favorite sequence in all of GoT. The staging, the music, the mounting suspense even as it becomes increasingly obvious what's about to happen, the twisted religious references particularly in Cersei's mock confession to Unella, Tommen throwing himself out a window because he can't deal with the reality of how terrible his mother is, how Cersei gives absolutely no fucks whatsoever about murdering hundreds of people at once in a calculated act of vengeance largely prompted by her own poorly thought out actions - I love it all. It's the single most masterfully-executed act of villainy in the whole show - Daenerys torching King's Landing probably has a higher body count, but the presentation there is all muddled - and if I had any doubts about Cersei being my favorite multi-season major character they were silenced in this moment. The explosion of the Sept doesn't sit perfectly with me, because I liked the Tyrells and because of what I said about deaths like theirs and Renly's in the previous post under S2, but I think that unease only cements the strength of this sequence. It's an overused phrase in fandom these days, but GoT at its best is all about moral greyness that gives its audience room for multilayered reactions. Cersei nuking the Sept and making herself the sole power in King's Landing, which in a sense is just a more overt example of the kind of character/plot consolidation elsewhere represented by Daenerys's armada, is one of those events that's impossible to approach from a single angle if you care about any of the characters involved. And hey, it's not in the books (yet, presumably), so unlike Ned's death or the Red Wedding the GoT showrunners can take the credit for realizing this one.

Favorite death: Even leaving aside the Sept and related deaths there's a lot of good ones to choose from in S6. Ramsey is cathartic but too gory for me, Osha's was a clever callback but a little delayed, it's hard to pin down specific deaths when Daenerys incinerates the khals, and Arya only gets half credit for Walder Frey and his sons when she saves the rest of the house for the opening of S7. I'm thinking Hodor, not so much because I enjoy his character or the manner of his death but because it's a clever bit of playing with language (that must have been hell to render in other languages for dubbing) wrapped up in some entertainingly murky consent issues and some closed time loop weirdness. It's all very...extra? Is that the word for it?

Least favorite death: Offscreen deaths continue to be mostly letdowns, in this case Blackfish and the Waif. Way to botch the ending of Arya's already near-pointless Braavos arc, guys. Speaking of Arya, this spot goes to Lady Crane, whom the Waif somehow kills with a stool or something. It's a dumb way to send off an entertaining minor character.

#6 Season 8

I swear that I'm not putting S8 this high solely because of Jonmund kind of sort of happening. I've never been very interested in either of them and the sex would be far too bear-on-otter to suit my pornographic preferences, but even so the choice to close out the series with them is hilarious.

I really don't need to elaborate on why S8 is down here; everyone who's ever watched the show has done as much in the nearly two years since it wrapped up. I do however need to explain why I've ranked not one but two seasons below it. My biggest argument here is that I don't believe it's fair to critique S8 for problems it inherited from earlier seasons. A non-comprehensive list:

Mad Queen Daenerys: unevenly built up beginning from S1 and continuing in some form through every following season

The questionable racial optics of Dany's army: also seeded as early as S1 and solidified by S3 with the Slaver's Bay arc

Cersei only succeeding because she makes stupid decisions and then lucks out until she doesn't: apparent from S1, directly lampshaded by Tywin in S3, fully on display with the Faith Militant arc of S5-6

Jaime not getting a redemption arc or falling in love with Brienne: evident with his repeated returns to Cersei throughout the show as one of the most consistent elements of his character, particularly in S4 and during the siege of Riverrun in S6

Tyrion grabbing the idiot ball/becoming a flat audience surrogate mouthpiece: started in S5 around the time the showrunners ran out of book material for him and wanted to make him more of a PoV character and his arc less of a downward spiral, although I've seen arguments that changes from the books involving his Tysha story and Shae set him on this trajectory even earlier

The hardening of Sansa's character: began in earnest in S4 and never let up from there

The strange ordering of antagonists: set down by S7's equally strange plot structure - the Night King had to come first with that setup

CleganeBowl and the dumber twists: from what I've heard the whole thing of writing around fans on the internet guessing plot twists started pretty much when the book content ended, so S5-6 maybe?

Yes, there's plenty to criticize about S8 on its own merits...but just as much that was merely the writers doing what they could at that point with deeply flawed material.

Highlight: This may sound cheesy, but the better parts of S8 are almost all the cinematic ones, whether that's E2 being a bottle episode with tons of poignant character send-offs before the big battle, a handful of deaths with actual satisfying weight like Jorah's and Theon's, and an epilogue that incorporates both closure for individuals and the broader uncertainty of messy socio-political systems that GoT has always been known for before working its way back to the Starks at the very end for some tidy bookending. Even imperfect moments like the Lannister twins' death and the resolution of Sansa's character felt weighty and appropriate based on what had come before.

Favorite death: Forget about the audio commentary attempting to flatten Cersei's character; Cersei and Jaime Lannister have an excellent end. Cersei especially, as the scenes of her stumbling her way down into the catacombs as the Red Keep crashes down around her really show off how her world is abruptly falling apart and how she retreats into her own self-interest at the end in spite of her demise being at least partially of her own doing. There's some stupid moments associated with these scenes, like Jaime dueling Euron to the death and CleganeBowl, but I can excuse those when the twins end up dying exactly where you'd expect them to: in each other's arms, in a ruined monument to their family's grand ambitions that, like Casterly Rock itself, was taken from another family.

Least favorite death: Quite a few dumb ones in S8 have become forever infamous. Missandei sticks out, and for me Varys too just as much because of how the writing pushes him to do the dumbest thing he could possibly do purely for the sake of killing him off ten minutes into the penultimate episode. But no one belongs here more than Daenerys Targaryen, killed at the height of a rushed and uncertain villain reveal by a man who takes advantage of their romantic history (who is also her family, because Targaryens) to stab her in a moment of vulnerability - pretty much only because another man tells him that Daenerys is the final boss. Narratively speaking that might be the case, but even so this is the end result of multiple seasons of middling-to-bad buildup. Not even Drogon burning the symbolism can salvage that. Also Fire Emblem: Three Houses did this scene and did it better.

#7 Season 5

...Yeah, we're going to have to go there.

Sansa's rape is not a plot point that personally touches me much. It's terribly framed in the moment and the followup in later seasons is inconsistent at best, but it's not a kind of trauma I can relate to. On the other hand, in the very same episode Loras is tried and imprisoned for homosexuality, and Margery faces the same punishment for lying for her brother. That hits much closer to home, not just for the homophobia but also for the culture war undertones of the not!French Tyrells persecuted by a not!Anglo fanatic who later reveals himself to be the in-universe equivalent of a Protestant. The trial is just one part of Cersei's shortsighted scheming, just as Sansa being married off to Ramsey is part of Littlefinger's, and both of them get their comeuppance in the end...but it's unsettling all the same. I especially hate what the Faith Militant arc does to King's Landing in S5, swiftly converting it from my favorite setting in GoT to a tense theocratic nightmare that only remains interesting to me because Cersei is consistently awesome. What's more, pretty much everything about S5 that isn't viscerally uncomfortable is dragged out and dull instead: the Dorne arc, Daenerys's second season in Meereen, Arya in Braavos, Stannis and co. at Castle Black. The most any of these storylines can hope for is some kind of bombastic finale, and while several of them deliver it's not enough to make up for what comes before, or how disappointing everything here builds from S4. S4 has Oberyn, S5 has the Sand Snakes - I think that sums up the contrast well.

Highlight: S5 does get stronger near the end. As much as his character annoys me I did like the High Sparrow revealing his pseudo-Protestant bent to Cersei just before he imprisons her, and there's a cathartic rawness to Cersei's walk of atonement where you can both feel her pain and humiliation and understand that she's getting exactly what she deserves (and this is what leads into the climax of S6, so it deserves points just for that). The swiftness of Stannis's fall renders his death and that of his family a bit hollow, but it's brutal and final and fittingly ignominious for a character with such grand ambitions but so little relevance to the larger story. The fighting pits of Meereen sequence is cinematic if nothing else, and even the resolution to the Dorne arc salvages the whole thing a tiny bit by playing into the retributive cycles of vengeance idea (and Myrcella knows about the twincest and doesn't care, aww - no idea why that stuck with me, but it's cute all the same). Oh, and Hardhome...it's alright. Not great, not crap, but alright.

Favorite death: I don't know why, but Theon tossing Myranda to her death is always funny to me. Maybe because it's so unexpected?

Least favorite death: Arya's execution of Meryn Trant is meant to be another one of the season's big finale moments, but the scene is graphic and goes on forever and I can't help but be grossed out. This is different from, say, Shireen's death, which is supposed to be painful to witness.

#8 Season 7

I can't tell if S7's low ranking is as self-explanatory as S8's or not. At least one recent retrospective on GoT's ruined legacy I've come across outright asserts that S7 is judged less harshly in light of how bad S8 was. If it were not immediately obvious by where I've placed each of them, I don't share that opinion.

Because S7 is just a mess, and the drop-off in quality is so much more painful here than it is anywhere else in the series except maybe from S4 to S5 (and that's more about S4 being as good as it is). The pacing ramps up to uncomfortable levels to match the shortened seasons, the structure pivots awkwardly halfway through from Daenerys vs. Cersei to Jon/Dany caring about ice zombies, said pivot relies largely on characters (mostly Tyrion) making a series of catastrophically stupid tactical decisions, and very few of the smaller set pieces land with any real impact as the show's focus narrows to its endgame conflict. As with S6 there are still some good ideas, but they're botched in execution. The conflict between Sansa and Arya matches their characters, but the leadup to that conflict ending with Littlefinger's execution is missing some key steps. Daenerys's diverse armada pitted against Cersei weaponizing the xenophobia of the people of King's Landing could have been interesting, but there's little room to explore that when Cersei keeps winning only because Tyrion has such a firm grip on the idiot ball and when Euron gets so much screentime he barely warrants. Speaking of Tyrion's idiot ball, does anyone like the heist film-esque ice zombie retrieval plotline? Its stupidity is matched only by its utter futility, because Cersei isn't trustworthy and nobody seems to ever get that.

And how could I forget Sam's shit montage? Sums up S7 perfectly, really. To think that that is part of the only extended length of time the show ever spends in the Reach....

Highlight: A handful of character moments save this season from being irredeemable garbage. As you can guess from my screencap choice, Olenna's final scene is one of them, even if Highgarden itself is given insultingly short shrift. S7 also manages what I thought was previously impossible in that it makes me care somewhat about Ellaria Sand, courtesy of the awful death Cersei plans for her and her remaining daughter. The other Sand Snakes are killed with their own weapons, which shows off Euron's demented creativity if nothing else. I like the entertainingly twisted choice to cut the Jon/Dany sex scene with the reveal that they're related. And, uh...the Jonmund ship tease kind of makes the zombie retrieval team bearable? I'm really grasping at straws here.

Favorite death: It's more about her final dialogue with Jaime than her actual death, but again I'm going to have to highlight Olenna Tyrell here for lack of better options. She drops the bombshell about Joffrey that the audience figured out almost as soon as it happened but still, makes it plain what I've been saying about how Jaime's arc has never really been about redemption, and is just about the only person to ever call Cersei out for that whole mass murder thing. There's a reason "I want her to know it was me" became a meme format.

Least favorite death: There aren't any glaringly bad deaths in S7, just mediocre or unremarkable ones. I still think the decision to have Arya finish off House Frey in the season's opening rather than along with their father at the end of S6 was a strange one that doesn't add much of dramatic value.

#Game of Thrones #GoT

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stormbornwithblackfyre · 5 years

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My Game of Thrones S8 Rant.

At this point we have two episodes left in the entire Series of Game of Thrones and to be completely honest it's been underwhelming, disappointing, and rushed, which now that the honeymoon period of having my almost 2 year wait end i can clearly see.

The writing is the main issue I have with all of this. It all comes back to the writing. Too many times gor too many occasions have I asked "why?" It just feel like too many things don't make sense and too many things were done to be overtly dramatic and shocking, instead of leaning on the STORY and NARRATIVES which we as a fandom has been salivating over for the entire series.

Let's start with "The North" and their whole Saga and the Dilemma with The Night King, White Walkers, and AotD. An evil that was shown do us from the very first episode, very first scene if i am not mistaken. An ancient and evil magic, that the living will have to deal with, that the living will have to overcome or become just more members if the AotD. THAT was the driving force of S7 basically. The reason Jon and Dany meet? Dragonglass mountain under Dragonstone. Dragonglass? Oh, just ine of the 3 ways you can kill members of the AotD. The reason every main charachter besides a certain red head *Insert word here cause I'm trying my bet to not name call* showed up for a summit in the Dragonpit IN KING'S LANDING OF ALL PLACES? Oh, just to show Cersei a wight in an attempt to convince her to help fight which was an idiotic plan in it's own right. Bottomline is the Night King and his Army was a driving force and tbh i appreciate focussing one half if the last season on him and the other on Cersei. Issue is Cersei conventionally should have been hit with a "Fire Style Fireball Jutsu"

Off rip cause that was the easiest and SMARTEST MOVE. But i digress this is avout S8. So i have no conv eptyal plab with the amount of time in episodes gi en hi the threat north but the dialogue and context are what begin my frustrations.

Everything feels rushed immediately, as evidenced by Bran

Dropping the bomb of the wall falling and Viscerion being controlled by the NK. Now the pace quickens and thats cool but it gets jumbled and stats jumbled. Which makes the North and their resistance to Jon bending the knee so weird....or weirder than it already is. Yes you want independence. Yes you want to be held out of wars. Yes want to be isolated but.......THE WHITE WALKERS ARE COMING FOR YOU FIRST AND JON WAS YOUR KING. HE LEFT WITH NOTHING BUT DA(D)VOS AND A FEW GOOD MEN AND RETURNED WITH TWO ARMIES, TWO DRAGONS, AND WARS SUPPLY OF DRAGON GLASS AND A GODSDAMN QUEEN.....Why in gods name are any of them so cold and hesitant to people helping thwm when they didn't have to? Or at the very least why thorough the very end of that war does it last?

Which brings me to a certain Red head. Sansa Stark has cause way more friction and problems than necessary this season amd it's so ridiculous and petty and stupid that legitimately gwt upset thinking about it. Upset about Jon not telling you he was going to bend the knee? Fair point. Ask him why and how he bent the knee maybe hmm? Want to stand your ground and show Dany you are a Wolf of Winterfell amd wont be taken down without a fight? I respect the chutzpah but Dany is here to save the North and literally gave you the warmest of hellos along with layer on telling you tje obvious that she loves your brother after you state the obvious that he loves her too. Maybe sit down and discuss the fate Winterfell and the North after the war is won before the war begins hmm? Mad Two armies, Two Dragons, and A Queens entourage now must be housed? THEN DIE ON YOUR GODSDAMN OWN AND JOIN THE ARMY OF THE GODSDAMN DEAD......Sansa and her pettiness and nothing. NOTHING...of use to the season until she breaks a swear to her own brother. Now we all know biologically they are cousins but They grew up Brother and Sister tho not the beat relationship. She swore to him i front of Their other Brother and Sister in the Godswood no less that she wouldn't tell a soul.......and then goes and Tells Tyrion. Why? Please. Anyone. Anyone please tell me why. I have zero clue. Break an oath to the man who was a brother to you? Why? You don't want Daenerys, the woman who saved your entire country from Death's icy grip, as tge Seven Kingdom's queen? Why? None of it makes sense. None. And for those who dare say she's "Playing the Game" No she isn't Triple H amd no it's not time to play the game it's time to think rationally.

Next up is the choices made by the writers that just rubbed me the wrong way and shot down my faith in the show. First and foremost Sam and the Tarly reveal. Absolute ridiculousness. Randyll Tarly, Sam's father, basically said to Sam: You aren't what a real man is, you aren't what a Lord should be, you are garbage. Go to the Wall or I'll take you out back and end you myself.

Now, person who may or may not read this, I don't know about you but i would tap dance on the grave of my father if he said and did to me what Randyll did to Sam. Period. End of discussion. On to Dickon *Insert snicker here* Tarly. I would have less hate for him but still no love. Dickon was now heir. Dickon was now going to get all the land and wealth and possesions and titles that nelonged to Sam simply do to patriarchy and age. (which is another discussion but we all know is how GOT is governed) So I have no clue why sam is boo hooing about either of the two. Now here's the kicker. Randyll Tarly....along with Dickon Tarly...COMMITED TREASON. TREASON AGAINST THE HOUSE THEY WERE SWORN TO FOR GENERATIONS. They also HAD. A. CHOICE. Death or Bend the knee. They chose death. End of story. Sam being a little shook? Understandable. Full fledged sobs? Stop watching Lifetime movies D & D.

That leads to Sam telling Jon, R+L=J with spite and anger which in all honesty is bullshit and Sam is a bullshit friend for it. You can't tell your supposed best friend his life was a lie n an attempt to get back at someone who honestly did you no wrong. Just bad decisions all around and feels lazy on top of it all.

Then comes the shock and awe that really just.....*Deep sigh* takes away from it all. No issue with Arya saving us. Being the hero that kills the NK. Being the Princess who was promised. But wait.......It was shock value? This was a decision made 7 years into this show? Not off rip? Jon and the NK stare downs were.....just stare downs? While all along we learn nada of the NK? Shock value is a no go most times and this is why. No substance. No merrit. Ep 4 references Arya as the hero....maybe 3 times in small passing. It just felt l like it didn't matter. More shock that was there dor shocks sake was Rhaegal dying. How did Dany not see them? Why did Dany not see them? HOW WAS I THE ONLY ONE PRESENT THINKING TO MYSELF THEY'LL BE AMBUSHED? Tyrion too drunk? Jon to tired with having to Defend Dany against Sansa because Sansa on that bullshit? Varys all of a sudden cant get information? Like how was THAT not foreseen and how wans every boltshot at Rhaegal a guranteed hit? The most shock value of all was Missandei, former slave and a POC being re chained and then killed in a foreign land by a foreign person(who's Caucasian as you guessed) for nothing. It was a heart stabber indeed and makes you want to see Dany destroy Cersei and Grewworm sestroy the Mountain but unnecessary.

All in all I'm real hurt. Real hurt. Totally prepared to wipe S8 from my mind and have GOT with S7. If you read any of this, welcome to my ted talk, sorry for rambling haha.

#gameofthronesedit #game of thrones #game of thrones rant #got rant #me

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halsteadsass · 3 years

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Totally agree about the twists. It's a shame because I think Survivor has some of the best casting of any reality show and it feels like instead of letting the people that they picked shine and allowing them to dictate the game, they throw in all the twists and advantages, which kind of takes the game out of their hands in a way. It feels like the producers almost don't trust that the cast will give them a good season, so they add a bunch of stuff to manufacture good moments when if they had just let the moments happen organically, it would've been much more memorable.

I love Chicago Fire but I also agree with you that it's not as strong as it used to be. The S8 premiere sucked a lot of joy out of it for me, and it feels like a lot of the storylines now are just so... inconsequential? Like nothing of substance really happens anymore, and it feels like the characters are either stagnant or running around in circles instead of progressing in any way. And yes, love Ruzek! I kind of forgot about him while writing that response. His first scene at the academy when Olinsky is scouting who to bring in is so iconic. It was so interesting to learn that the groundwork for Burzek was laid out so early on. I really liked them together from the episodes I saw, so I'm really interested to see how that develops and why they end up falling apart.

Let me know when you've watched the Survivor finale so we can discuss!

I did watch the finale live! I was sweating for a full three hours lol. It was a good finale but was very stressful towards the end. I had so many feelings about it. I was disappointed, but not shocked by the winner.

Where do I even begin? I guess lets start with Ricard being taken out. It needed to be done, but watching it happened still made me sad. There was just no chance for anyone else to win if he made it. Since I was rooting for Xander, as I always have, I needed him to not use the idol on Ricard like he said he might. At least that is one mistake Xander was smart enough to avoid. The thing about Ricard holds true, he was a great player and he played an almost perfect game. He'll be remembered and he'll definitely be back for a second chances or an all stars.

Xander winning immunity made me scream because I could not believe that he was actually going to make it to the final three. The entire season I kept thinking that they were going to take him out because of the resume he's built (part of the reason why I am very disappointed with the outcome). The biggest mistake he could have made, he did. My heart sank when he brought Erika instead of sending her to the fire making challenge. At least I got a good chuckle out the segment when he was watching her try to make fire. It was a moment that was very needed lol. I understand that he was afraid of adding another win to her survivor list, but it didn't matter. He probably would have the million dollars right now.

Final tribal made me stressed out but it became very clear from the beginning that Erika was going to win. I think one of my biggest problems with her winning is that comparing the two games, Xander had the better one. Xander did EVERYTHING a survivor winner does in the game and for whatever reason, it wasn't enough. It just doesn't sit right with me. Erika had some great moves, but they weren't winner moves. Maybe if they had given her a winner's edit throughout the season, her win would have felt better. It makes me worried about future survivor seasons and the way they are going to choose winners. Are they going to actually base it off what the game has always been about or are they just going to make it because they want to make a statement?

As with Ricard, I hope to see Xander back on. Preferably hope to never have to see Shan again in my life lol. I was glad to see Liana have a little fun and personality with the "Do you have an idol?" joke with Xander. Still the most iconic part of this entire season. How do you feel about the new season's cast? I always have a hard time caring or being interested in them in the previews. They seem so bland so I am hoping to be surprised when the show comes back and interviews are released.

I will say this about burzek: miscommunication. I have an issue with the writing when it comes to Kim but it wouldn't make any sense without you watching it lol. It also has heavy spoilers and don't want to ruin it if you do have plans of watching one day.

#asks #tea time with nikki #confetti-cupcake

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elizabethrobertajones · 7 years

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Ok so if all four of them are gonna be in a *cowboy themed* motel in 13x6 they're gonna have to split up 2 and 2 right??? So I'm really gonna need Dean and Cas to share a room and then have a convo that's reverse of the "Talk to me" one in S8 where instead they talk about how they both did feel suicidal but how they've both overcome it. ~For reasons unknown~

That would be great mirroring, and it’s always good to compare the fun episodes where things seem back to normal to 8x08… However… Sorry, but this is a bummer reply, I’m just not good with leaving off things like this :P

I sort of feel though that neither Dean or Cas got to completely overcome things in their respective paths through dark other worlds… Cas said he’d just keep fighting and even if the standing up was an important part, he acknowledged he was going back with a sense of hopelessness that he’d get what he truly wants - and that’s just how it was in the Empty, while it sounds like he may have forgotten the experience so it’s for now a metaphorical state he passed through and we got to see it vocalised and it probably means roughly where he’s up to. But the despair of resolution, the fact need/want has been called out for US to know it’s a major theme but Cas of course hasn’t actually talked face to face with any Winchester, let alone Dean, to resolve need/want, which is the core of his depression, thematically… He’s come back with levelled up determination and a will to live, which is great, but there’s so much work to do before he feels happy even if he DOES remember the Empty. I’ve written ridiculously long things tracking his arc so I’ll just say that this was a great step forwards for him but in no way actually resolving anything.

For Dean as well, Billie sent him back but it was with the “work to do” order/motivation that’s made Dean and Sam power through a lot of their worst times, and like how in the Empty nothing new was actually said about Cas, it just brought everything up that was troubling him so we’d get a sample of how he feels, that was just repeating the theme for Dean that he started this season on - that at best he’s going to feel like a guy doing his job, because someone more important than him told him he had to and he can’t stop now.

Billie’s words are the sort of advice he got in season 7 after Cas (and then Bobby) died, from Bobby, Frank and Eliot Ness, all of which was a variation of the same sort of nihilism about doing the job because it’s the job and you’re the one who does it. I’m in most agreement with the meta I’ve seen that Dean didn’t go into that whole mess looking for a reason to die, he just was in that state Bobby described:

BOBBY:I want to talk about your new party line.

DEAN:Party? What are you talking about? I don’t even vote.

BOBBY:“The world’s a suicide case. We save it, it just steals more pills”?

DEAN:Bobby, I’m here, okay? I’m on the case. What’s the problem?

BOBBY:I’ve seen a lot of hunters live and die. You’re starting to talk like one of the dead ones, Dean.

DEAN:No, I’m talking the way a person talks when they’ve had it, when they can’t figure out why they used to think all this mattered.

I’m picking on this conversation because it’s the most detailed but also because it’s the one Dean has WITH Bobby so in no way shape or form can it be about Dean losing Bobby, except that of course this episode gave Dean and Sam both a private conversation with Bobby about where they were at, so we could have a good last moment with him each, and also to gauge how they’d react to his death (Dean with this massive depression caused by losing Cas and his betrayal to pile on top of) and Bobby’s last advice apply after as well. His advice being:

BOBBY:Come on, now. You tried to hang it up and be a person with Lisa and Ben. And now here you are with a mean old coot and a van full of guns. That ain’t person behavior, son. You’re a hunter, meaning you’re whatever the job you’re doing today. Now, you get a case of the Anne Sextons, something’s gonna come up behind you and rip your fool head off. Now, you find your reasons to get back in the game. I don’t care if it’s love or spite or a ten-dollar bet. I’ve been to enough funerals. I mean it. You die before me, and I’ll kill you.

Cheery.

But this is essentially what Billie does for Dean. She reads him, sees he wants to die, and he tells her that he doesn’t matter, so she reassures him that he has a job, that he is important, that he’s in this cosmic position of responsibility. It would almost be encouraging, to know you’re not meant to die that day, that there is a reason for you to be alive. But not for Dean in the state he was in then.

Cas coming back is GREAT and of course it’s going to make Dean wildly happy. But he’s been feeling this way about the job a long, long time in ways that aren’t to do with Cas at all but is just his underlying major trauma that you can see coming from a hundred miles off in season 1:

from 2x09:

DEANI’m tired, Sam. I’m tired of this job, this life … this weight on my shoulders, man. I’m tired of it.

[…]

DEANI just think we should take a break from all this. Why do we gotta get stuck with all the responsibility, you know? Why can’t we live life a little bit?

Or this speech from 2x20 I contractually have to quote at least once a month as a card-carrying Dean!girl:

DEAN All of them. Everyone that you saved, everyone Sammy and I saved. They’re all dead. And there’s this woman, that’s haunting me. I don’t know why. I don’t know what the connection is, not yet anyway. It’s like my old life is, is coming after me or something. Like it like it doesn’t want me to be happy. Course I know what you’d say. Well, not the you that played softball but… “So go hunt the Djinn. He put you here, it can put you back. Your happiness for all those people’s lives, no contest. Right?” But why? Why is it my job to save these people? Why do I have to be some kind of hero? What about us, huh? What, Mom’s not supposed to live her life, Sammy’s not supposed to get married? Why do we have to sacrifice everything, Dad? It’s… Yeah…

(And, side note, it really annoys me when people make 2x20 about brotherly wuv, platonically or not, because THAT is why Dean decided to go un-wish this life, not because of anything to do with AU Sam, who he still trusted he could find his Sam in >.> I’ll just keep repeating this until I stop stumbling over the idea… :P)

He’s had similar smaller moments like this but season 2, 7 and now 13 are his grief seasons, so I’m most interested in these parallels. Like, just in general. Specifically in season 2 because he was dealing with John’s order to save Sam or kill him, which of course is a dynamic that Jack could horrifyingly repeat for him if Dean gets attached to a kid with the same horrifying destiny. Specifically in season 7 Dean was dealing with losing Cas and it immediately struck him to the core, that even while Cas was still Godstiel he was having mirrors with his season 2 self after losing John:

DEANSounds good. You got any leads on where the demon is? Making heads or tails of any of Dad’s research? Because I sure ain’t. But you know, if we do finally find it - oh. No, wait, like you said. The Colt’s gone. But I’m sure you’ve figured out another way to kill it. We’ve got nothing, Sam. Nothing, okay? So you know the only thing I can do? Is I can work on the car.

[… five years elapse]

SAM: So, what? Try to talk to him again?

DEAN: Sam.

SAM: Dean, all we can do is talk to the guy.

DEAN: He’s not a guy. He’s God. And he’s pissed. And when God gets righteous, you get the hell out of the way; haven’t you read the Bible?

SAM: I guess…

DEAN: Cas is never coming back. He’s lied to us, he used us, he cracked your gourd like it was nothing. No more talk; we have spent enough on him.

SAM: Okay.

DEAN: Hand me that socket wrench.

Dean didn’t lose the car this time, just had Miriam deface it with “Bitch” on the window and the car was washed and shiny in a couple of episodes. But it’s metaphorically a similar process and I guess all they had time for when 13x01 was about taking time in a very different way, by giving Dean like 10 minutes at the end of the episode all about how he was grieving Cas.

Anyway, I think there’s a lot of thematic overlap in what it means for Dean right now, with Billie’s reminder of his position on the cosmic ladder, to John’s order about Sam, to Dean’s responsibility to deal with Cas and the Leviathans, which eventually crystallises into his mission to kill Dick - and though Dick kills Bobby, finding out who is the head leviathan in 7x09 really just seals the deal of who Dean needs to personally kill to deal with everything, and the Bobby thing was just an extra motivation to fall into a revenge mindset, but it also about what happened with Cas (and when Cas comes back, he has to help kill Dick for the same reason it all happened to him and he was connected to it and responsible).

We really haven’t seen anything yet, but I think getting Cas back is a temporary fix at least to a bigger issue, which is Dean’s burden of the world, which Chuck lumped on him in 11x23 and made me very, very excited that Dean’s duty to save everyone was hopefully going to get some microscopic treatment and maybe one day some sort of resolution. I don’t think Billie’s comment was a pick me up, and it reminds me of how Cas started picking on Dean on Heaven’s behalf in 4x01 - telling him they had work for him. In 4x02 Dean complains a lot about how he hates being singled out and it’s absolutely horrifying that he was saved for unknown reasons. And those reasons turned out to be being Michael’s vessel and one of the 2 grenade pins needed to be pulled on the planet being destroyed.

(Which we have some handy visuals for and reminders of in the AU world right now :P)

I’d hope in the long run Chuck’s orders end up being destroyed as much as John’s were, because the parallel is 1 to 1 except bigger scale, and Chuck telling Dean the world has him to protect it literally in God’s own place is an absolutely horrifying unfair burden than broke him in season 5 and can be directly equated to how season 2 broke him when Sam, who was basically his whole world at the time, was lumped on him with the same burden. In the mean time, Billie’s adding to the weight on Dean, although long run she’s neutral, commenting on it rather than ordering, and seems to have some confidence that he has a purpose and will fulfil it, I can see Dean struggling with it in just the same way he took Cas’s comments in 4x01.

So even if he seems happy to get Cas back, the root problem of his depression, his sense of being worthless, is still truly about how he defines himself as a hunter and the guy who is supposed to save everyone - who will trade himself for a house of random ghosts he feels he LET DOWN by not investigating well enough sooner. Because he has sole responsibility to fix the planet.

The job is killing Dean literally and metaphorically, and the grief of losing all his loved ones as they do it is just an additional awful, awful part of it. Not getting Cas back immediately thanks to Chuck in 13x01 just confirmed how alone Dean is in the world to him, and he directly mentioned the line from 11x23 when reaching out to Chuck… Getting Cas back and Cas returning seemingly on his own steam is going to be a nice turning point, and good for uplifting Dean, but the core problem remains and since 11x23 I’ve been pretty certain that Dean’s endgame is NOT to be a hunter… Billie also now makes me think he has some purpose to fulfil, and ideally, fulfilling it would let him finally get off the cosmic ladder and be who he wants to be without obligation.

About all I can really speculate about that hopeful endgame would be that Sam seems to be lumped in with Dean on this, but Cas is literally outside the system based on how he got himself back from the Empty without Chuck’s interference, OR except for in thematic “rewards” or dramatic irony from just missing him really hard, Dean didn’t actually bring him back by DOING anything, and Jack, who is also outside the system in some ways, did instead. But that’s all a huge mess right now :P Need more data.

So anyway, to go back to Dean and Cas next episode? I think they will have a lot to talk about but it has to be immediate character stuff about their actions and desires. They are both really good for each other and going through very similar emotional territory so I hope they get honest and tell each other how they’re doing, but I don’t think they’ll be talking about overcoming anything. I think if it does mirror 8x08 it MAY be a reversal that Dean admits how bad he was doing without Cas, and Cas is still too uncertain about what happened to him or with a link to make it directly about Dean to reciprocate the sentiment… For all the good communication lately I’m not entirely sure if Dean and Cas can absolutely knock down all the walls.

And I seriously fear dramatic interruptions to their reconciliation just because of the extremely vague episode descriptions we have after 13x06, which seem to be concealing exactly what happens in that episode… I’m really expecting silly cowboys for like the middle half of the episode, with the first quarter for reconciliation and getting onto the job, and the last quarter or five minutes for shit to completely hit the fan in some way, probably about Jack, and probably involving Cas since he’s specifically not mentioned in the episode descriptions *even though they just got him back*.

I’m not worried or wanky about this, I’m just bracing myself for the next round of drama and what its subject will be. If Cas is fine and hanging out with the Winchesters still for 2 episodes and it was redacted spoilers for the sake of 13x05′s last 5 minutes that’s awesome :P But it sounds like time to brace yourself not to expect everything to be fluffy or resolved, either with plot stuff, or emotional arcs. We’re only 5 episodes in so the drama needs to keep on happening, and there’s no way Dean and Cas can or should overcome their arcs about their depression when it’s been set up so interestingly, just because they’re hanging out again.

But it WILL make them feel a lot better in the short term. :D I’m really excited for what they WILL say to each other, I just feel like in some ways we’re really starting to put the cart before the horse on identifying what stories are being told and what moments are being offered to tell them, and assuming the stories are over just because something really dramatic happened. I’m seeing it a lot with all sorts of thematic threads, that just because they’re becoming obvious or surface level or have had a really dramatic moment all about them, they’re being wrapped up as we speak. Instead I think it’s got to all be set up for the rest of the season, where this is all important stuff to know, but the real work hasn’t even begun yet :P

#Asks #they are DEFINITELY changing the emotional landscape of the show and have been for a few seasons #but that doesn't mean that it's all over just because things are turning up positively now :P #13x05 #13x04 #13x06 #season 13 spoilers #season 13 speculation #dean analysis #my stuff

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jonesywrites · 7 years

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I just realise i never hit ur ask box while i enjoy your stories and ur blog. I really like ur style it's raw, dark but at the same time we can feel the beauty of every word use. Like in Vantage Point which is my fave of urs ( and I need a update I miss them). I even read the story with ghost Mike while I'm hate scary story. I would like to have ur point of view on the last season of TWD, Negan and the beginning of the season 8.

Hey, @hawajulayman !

Thank you so much for your kind words! Okay. Forgive me, I don’t do this a lot. There are several folks in the fandom that do this waaaaay better, but I’ll do my best. Eep!

So, S7 in general…

It was painful and I hated most of it. I hated having to see The Family, especially Rick, fall so far when they were just on the cusp of confidence and a better future. We went from this:

…to this:

And I hated it. Granted, Andrew and Danai churned out incredible performances and in general most of the cast (with the exception of Daryl IMO) showed moments of growth that I appreciated. Enid became less annoying and started to sort of serve a purpose. Sasha’s sacrifice was one of the best deaths in the show IMO. Jesus became part of The Family, and I love his character’s support of and partnership with Sasha and Maggie. I actually wasn’t too sure about King E, but I really like him now and frankly I’m hoping he can win Carol’s heart. It seems like he’s already won her respect, at least, in S8 so far. I even appreciated Carl’s moment of “fuck this” right before that jackolantern humiliated my bb.

I’m glad that Rick and Michonne found their way back to each other, and I understand that they had to go their own way to figure out the best path forward was always gonna be together. Rick had to get knocked off his high horse, broken down to nothing, and rebuilt again by her love and support. It just had to happen this way, and because it did, I believe their love for each other is ten times stronger than even they realized when they first got together.

Michonne’s “I’m still with you…” was put to the test, you hear? And it held firm.

Of course, “Say Yes”/ the Honeymoon Ep was my favorite of the season.

I was giddy at Rick’s desire to prolong their time together. Seeing Michonne so floored by the possibility of his death really touched me but in general it was just really good to see all the lighter sides of them, too, together. I think Andy said once when asked that that episode showed the two people they used to be. I agree. We got to see the people they’d kept buried for a long, long time, since the ZA started. I’m just so damn happy that she can bring out his sweet, romantic, playful, tender side and he can bring out her funny, flirty side, it just made enduring the rest of the season worth it. I’m purposefully ignoring the existence of Jadis. She’ll get hers, I’m sure of it, and personally she ain’t really worth my mental space, she’s trash, next.

But yo, Negan? NEGAN SUCKS ASS.

His funny evil guy schtick wore off the first episode (which I can’t talk about because Glenn’s death is just too raw even now). Every episode he appeared in I just rolled my eyes and sometimes I even had to fast forward. I know his “smile in your face and pal around while he guts you to death” thing is supposed to be scary but…honestly I found Shane’s desperate obsession with Lori and Carl scarier. I found the douchebags at Terminus scarier. Hell, I’m more scared of Carol and Morgan than that cheesin’ mofo.

Season 8 so far…

It’s growing on me? I’m so very very grateful that Richonne is back! I love seeing how all three territories (Kingdom, Hilltop, Alexandria) are organizing and working together. I’m invested in Carol+King E and I want Carl to really start leading. I’m sooooooo here for Rick Savage Grimes’s return!! I don’t really care about the Morales comeback? I’m curious about what’s gonna happen to the child Rick found, I guess. But mostly:

I need more of this. Lots more. Sorry.

And I need Negan’s cheesin’ ass dead. Or at the very least, silenced and not a threat anymore.

I know this was pretty all over the place, and way too long! I hope it makes sense! Thanks for the ask!

-Kendra

#asked #answered #kendrawriter #richonne #walking dead #season 8 #all out war #maybe just a lot more richonne please?#ooh and more born leader carl

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mittensmorgul · 7 years

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I'm new to SPN and a friend turned me onto your wonderful blog. We were talking about the early seasons and imagining what characters whom we meet later on in the series were doing in their lives at the same timeframe before we meet them. For example, after John died and went to Hell, at what point do you think Heaven jumpstarted their paradise plan? Meaning parallel to what early season episodes do you think Castiel's garrison got the orders to rescue Dean from Hell instead of John?

Hi there! And WHEEE! Welcome! Glad to have you here! :)

I was almost positive I’d made a post at some point in the past laying out the timeline for all this sort of “pre-Canon” stuff, but I think I’m just conflating maybe 15 or 20 different posts I’ve made over the years into one giant lumpy mountain of how I understand the events leading up to the series, and have never actually typed it out this way specifically, so I’m gonna go ahead and give it a shot.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but this is gonna be An Undertaking, so here goes:

I think Heaven “jumpstarted their Paradise plan” LONG before John died and went to hell in 1.22. I mean… LOOOOOOONG before…

Granted, that’s all established through revelations made in later seasons, but it all works retroactively. I mean, even the revelations made up through s12 about Mary, revelations we got during the MoC era in s9 and s10, revelations about Chuck and Amara in s11… they all serve to stretch the root causes of the entire Apocalypse back to the beginnings of Creation.

I guess that’s taking it back a little too far for the purposes of your question, but it does serve as a barometer for just how vast the scope of these events really is in-universe. Let me try and scale it back to the Apocalypse itself, since that’s specifically what you’re asking about here.

We learn in the early seasons that the demons “have plans” for Sam. Vague, ominous plans.

We learn in s3 that they had plans for Dean, as well… sending him to Hell. Throughout s4 we learn bits and pieces of what the demons’ larger plans entail– that they intend to break Lucifer out of his cage. We also begin to learn that while many angels believe they’re working to STOP Lucifer from getting free, other angels WANT Lucifer to be freed (Uriel, Zachariah, et. al.). Then at the end of s4, oopsie, Sam accidentally breaks Lucifer out while believing he was doing the one thing that would PREVENT Lucifer from breaking out…

Enter the True Vessel storyline… because this is where we begin to understand just how far back the scheming of Heaven and Hell goes. GENERATIONS back from Sam, Dean, and John Winchester.

From 5.01:

Zachariah: What, you thought you could actually kill Lucifer? You simpering wad of insecurity and self-loathing? No. You’re just a human, Dean. And not much of one.Dean: What do you mean, I’m the sword?Zachariah: You’re Michael’s weapon. Or, rather, his… receptacle.Dean: I’m a vessel?Zachariah: You’re the vessel. Michael’s vessel.Dean: How? Why—why me?Zachariah: Because you’re chosen! It’s a great honor, Dean.Dean: Oh, yeah. Yeah, life as an angel condom. That’s real fun. I think I’ll pass, thanks.

From 5.03:

Lucifer: Sam. My heart breaks for you. The weight on your shoulders, what you’ve done, what you still have to do. It is more than anyone could bear. If there was some other way… but there isn’t. I will never lie to you. I will never trick you. But you will say yes to me.|Sam: You’re wrong.Lucifer: I’m not. I think I know you better than you know yourself.Sam: Why me?Lucifer: Because it had to be you, Sam. It always had to be you.

They’re both “chosen.” Which leads one to believe that no matter what Alistair told Dean in 4.16 about John having been tortured and never breaking in Hell– that DEAN breaking in Hell was what “broke the first seal”– was ALWAYS the plan, from long before John sold his soul for Dean. It makes John’s deal just one more push for Dean to make the same deal for Sam at the end of s2.

Sort of reminiscent of what Zachariah told Adam in 5.18:

ZACHARIAH: Hey, don’t get me wrong. You’ve been a hell of a sport, really. Good stuff. But the thing is, you’re not so much the “chosen one” as you are…a clammy scrap of bait.ADAM: No…but what about the stuff that you said? I’m supposed to fight the devil.ZACHARIAH: Mmm, not so much. Hey, if it’s any consolation, you happen to be the illegitimate half-brother of the guy we do care about. That’s not bad, is it?ADAM: So you lied…about everything.ZACHARIAH: We didn’t lie. We just avoided certain truths to manipulate you.

(and can I tell you HOW USEFUL this one simple exchange is on a meta level? how many times the show has used this exact device in order to fill in blanks and expand past canon? because they use it A LOT)

So in this metaphor, John is in Adam’s position here… he was the clammy scrap of bait, the object lesson and role model for Dean (i.e. the guy they do care about).

We also get a good bit of exposition on this from Gabriel in 5.08:

GABRIEL: You do not know my family. What you guys call the apocalypse, I used to call Sunday dinner. That’s why there’s no stopping this, because this isn’t about a war. It’s about two brothers that loved each other and betrayed each other. You’d think you’d be able to relate.SAM: What are you talking about?GABRIEL: You sorry sons of bitches. Why do you think you two are the vessels? Think about it. Michael, the big brother, loyal to an absent father, and Lucifer, the little brother, rebellious of Daddy’s plan. You were born to this, boys. It’s your destiny! It was always you! As it is in heaven, so it must be on earth. One brother has to kill the other.DEAN: What the hell are you saying?GABRIEL: Why do you think I’ve always taken such an interest in you? Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always.

They always knew it was gonna end with Sam and Dean Winchester.

Hence what the cupid told them in 5.14:

Cupid: Oh, mostly they don’t. You know, certain bloodlines, certain destinies. Oh, like yours.Sam: What?Cupid: Yeah, the union of John and Mary Winchester–Very big deal upstairs, top priority arrangement. Mm.Dean: Are you saying that you fixed-up our parents?Cupid: Well, not me, but… Yeah. Well, it wasn’t easy, either. Ooh, they couldn’t stand each other at first. But when we were done with them–Perfect couple.Dean: Perfect?Cupid: Yeah.Dean: They’re dead!Cupid: I’m sorry, but… the orders were very clear. You and Sam needed to be born. Your parents were just, uh…meant to be. A match made in Heaven- Heaven!

Sam and Dean needed to be born, their parents needed to meet and fall in love. How many generations of their family had been set up by cupids in order to bring about this “destiny?” Because Michael gives some pretty chilling context on that one in 5.13:

DEAN: How’d you get in my dad, anyway?MICHAEL: I told him I could save his wife, and he said yes.DEAN: I guess they oversold me being your one and only vessel.MICHAEL: You’re my true vessel but not my only one.DEAN: What is that supposed to mean?MICHAEL: It’s a bloodline.DEAN: A bloodline?MICHAEL: Stretching back to Cain and Abel. It’s in your blood, your father’s blood, your family’s blood.

and after Michael and Dean debate about the nature of Destiny versus Free Will (guess which side of the argument Dean defends? And which side Michael inflexibly sticks to? Yeah… there’s reasons Dean will never say yes to him…):

MICHAEL: Think of a million random acts of chance that let John and Mary be born, to meet, to fall in love, to have the two of you. Think of the million random choices that you make, and yet how each and every one of them brings you closer to your destiny. Do you know why that is? Because it’s not random. It’s not chance. It’s a plan that is playing itself out perfectly. Free will’s an illusion, Dean. That’s why you’re going to say yes.

(reminder: Dean never said yes. Granted he almost did a few times, but Cas stopped him once and Sam stopped him the other time, so… that’s where free will conquered destiny)

(second reminder, this is also the episode that coined the phrase “Team Free Will,” which has recently become so important again toward the end of s12…)

So, yeah. In the context of the apocalypse, John had been a pawn in the machinations of Heaven and Hell, just as much as Mary had been. Just as much as Sam and Dean and Cas were… but it was all because they were all playing their roles in the “destiny” set out for them at the beginning of creation.

So, yeah… I think the plans were in place long before John made that deal in 1.22. The angels never had a plan to rescue John. He may have been adjacent to the guy they needed to Do The Thing, but he was definitely not the guy they needed to Do The Thing. Just like Adam serving as Michael’s vessel in 5.18 (BAIT!), and just like John having served as Michael’s vessel in 5.13 (LURE!).

I made a much shorter post recently *searches own blog for 20 minutes getting detoured down four blind alleys and a rabbit hole* that sort of touches on this as well that might be of interest to this discussion:

http://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/162876917140/so-do-you-think-that-the-demons-didnt-really-plan

I hope this helps! And I also feel like this post serves as an object lesson in understanding how all “retcons” aren’t terrible. Some retcons improve past canon to vast degrees. Because technically ALL of this is one huge retcon. And it’s beautiful! :P

ETA: This doesn’t even touch on the stuff we learned in s8, specifically 8.12 about Henry Winchester, how he disappeared from John’s life when he was a child, how Abaddon had nearly derailed these plans for the Apocalypse by messing with the fate of the True Vessels… how the Winchesters AND Campbells were always Men of Letters or Hunters, how they’d all had this long history of dealing with the supernatural, how they’d jumped through time on multiple occasions to interfere with the supernatural… I swear it all makes sense in my head, how this all connects up into a vast timeline stretching from Chuck locking Amara away at the beginning of creation, the choices made by Michael and Lucifer dealing with the earliest humans– and the choices made by Cain and Abel that set their family irrevocably on this path… How generations of their family had been manipulated or coerced into “playing their roles” to bring them all up to that moment when Dean broke the first seal in hell and Sam broke the last seal on Lucifer’s cage, and how they were then able to take that destiny and rip up the ending with the help of a fallen angel and an old drunk. :’) that’s honestly why I keep watching this show.

#the ghost of john winchester #spn 1.22 #spn 2.22 #spn 4.16 #spn 5.01 #spn 5.03 #spn 5.08 #spn 5.13 #spn 5.14 #spn 5.18 #Anonymous #spn timeline

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awed-frog · 7 years

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Hi! I've just read your meta masterlist written for someone who wanted to convince their friends that deancas is real. First of all - thank you, what a treat to have it all in one place. The best Matrix red pill of them all. Second of all - "the entire S8, which was basically a demented Jane Eyre AU" - could you elaborate on that? I'm mighty interested.

Hi! Thanks for that - uhm - it’s missing a lot of stuff, though. I’m sure there are better masterposts out there, and I actually looked for them, but all I could find was fanfiction stuff.

As for the Jane Eyre thing - I should say I’m a fan of the Brontë sisters, so it wasn’t supposed to be an insult or anything, but it’s hard to deny that those kind of novels (particularly Wuthering Heights) are over the top and überdramatic and there’s almost an unhealthy focus on love and falling in love and what happens if you lose that and how your life can never be complete without that one person who means everything, and if that person is your foaming-at-the-mouth insane half-brother, so be it. And the thing is, Supernatural seasons often hinge around powerful and borderline soap-operish themes (the whole ‘almost orphans desperately looking for their father while killing things’ was very Dickens, in a way - if Dickens had been high on opium and cocaine and stuff, that is), but S8 really went above and beyond. I mean, even without the big love story for the fucking ages supporting the entire narrative arc, it was full of OMG and oh no! moments -

Sam is all alone in the world and may have found love but oh no! his brother’s back from the dead and super pissed and oh no! the woman he probably loves is actually not a widow and OMG what next?

Hunter Dean found himself a new best friend but oh no! he’s a vampire drawn to human blood but OMG he’s promised to abstain forever and fight his own instincts every day for eternity but oh no! what happens if he can’t?

There is a way to banish all demons from the Earth but oh no! it’s a magic spell that requires a human sacrifice and oh no! Sam actually wants to do that and is it guilt or depression or martyrdom or OMG is he simply that heroic??!?

- so much Gothic extravaganza, the list could go on and on. But, as I said, at the heart of it all are Dean and Cas, and what’s going on with them is so sappy and romantic even Charlotte Brontê would have edited some stuff out.

Like, I don’t even know where to start.

At the beginning of the season, Dean is precipitated in a world of darkness and monsters. He fights his way out for an entire year, and during that time he prays to Cas every night - Dean, who normally doesn’t pray at all. We know he’s tortured and desperate, because part of him believes Cas is dead (because Cas always comes when Dean calls, right?) and all of him knows it’s his own fault, because he forced Cas to fight even if Cas wasn’t in his right mind and Jesus, ALL the regrets and ALL the guilt. Then he finally finds Cas, who first refuses his manly and chaste affection and then pushes Dean to safety and chooses to die in that hellhole. This is so incredibly traumatic that Dean erases that entire memory as he makes his way into the real world (and, remember, we’re talking about Dean ‘I remember what was done to me in Hell’ Winchester here - I guess losing Cas was more painful than that?), which is just as lonely and brutal and hostile as the one he left behind (cue all the drama about Sam and Benny and Crowley killing everyone he can get his hands on). As he fights on, Dean starts to see Cas’ ghost everywhere, which is, like, standard behaviour for a Romantic hero or heroine but also legit what happens to you when your brain suffers such a heavy loss it can’t cope (if you’re not reading this alone at night, I recommend you check out this article about Japanese cab drivers picking up ghost passengers after the tsunami, and this BBC radio program explaining why it happens). This is obviously distressing for Dean, but then, as he’s fast approaching his breaking point, Cas actually shows up in person - he cannot explain how he found Dean, since Dean still has the anti-angel tattoo on his ribs, but wait - we know Cas can sense longing, right? so that’s why and if that isn’t the most tragic, romantic thing you’ve ever heard, get out. But there’s worse to come. Before that, though, we’re treated to a brief comedic interlude featuring the sappiest love trope ever - ‘all grown up’ - as Cas retires to the bathroom (and why) to clean up and reappears all handsome and clean-shaven, causing Dean an erection and much embarrassment.

(I still can’t believe that is a thing that actually happened, by the way.)

Next, of course, there’s the whole ‘Cas has been trained and programmed to kill Dean against his will and beats him up in a darkened crypt and nothing can happen now everyone is doomed doomed doomed but wait I NEED YOU and BAM, suddenly the mind control is gone and even someone with the whole of Heaven’s power behind her can’t come between Cas and Dean and Cas will never hurt Dean and what the fuck is even happening?’ episode, which, again, how was that an actual thing? Sometimes I think we were all high during that season and we had a collective hallucination or something. And next there is all the ‘You didn’t trust me? You didn’t trust me, I almost died to get you out, I would have died, I did not leave you’ drama as Dean finally remembers what happened (he doesn’t, by the way: Cas heals his brain, and those memories come back), and meanwhile in the background there’s more over the top and dramatic stuff going down - Sam being weird and volunteering to die and Benny also volunteering to die and Dean can’t save anyone and can’t do anything and now BAM, turns out Cas is also dying, or leaving forever, anyway, and there was so much unsaid stuff between them I remember fainting and melting into my couch during various episodes and thank God for smelling salts. And after all this torture and torment and ALL the love and ALL the pain, the very last episode was the worst of the worst - Dean must basically say goodbye to the only people he cares about and would do anything to spare, because both of them are dying, and it’s a sort of Sophie’s choice too because Cas is gone and Dean doesn’t have time to focus on that because SAMMY and at the end we’re left with him half supporting his brother’s weight as they look up at a sky full of falling angels (and is Cas one of them or did they kill him already and aaaaargh).

So, look - I’m even leaving out stuff, and it’s still almost unbearably sugary and tragic - it’s not like they haven’t had other weird moments between them, but this season alone is more romantic than, say, the entirety of Jane the Virgin, who’s supposed to be about romance, or even Grey’s fucking Anatomy, where, sure, you get those random episodes where a train explodes and people are stuck all over the city and you can’t save all of them and surprise! you’re probably dying yourself BUT you also get some time to breathe in between and episodes where almost no one’s fighting and people are having sex and how come they never sleep, seriously? And what I just can’t believe is that we’re the only ones to have both sides here - Dean still doesn’t know about the thousand Deans Cas was forced to kill, or about those convoluted reasons Metatron had for cutting out Cas’ Grace, specifically, and Cas doesn’t understand how close Dean came to tell him those three stupid words which would have solved and changed everything, and he doesn’t get why Dean was hurt by his choice to remain in Purgatory, and how much, and he must ignore or disregard, by now, those random spikes in Dean’s arousals, because he assumes that’s what humans do or whatever and he probably never realized he should have hugged Dean back that time on the river bank, and what it meant to Dean that he didn’t. See? Tragedy and misunderstanding and Dean being an actual Gothic heroine and Cas being all Rochester-y about things (early Rochester, I mean, the one who was determined to be a martyr and could not believe someone as smart as Jane would ever find his old ass interesting in any way).

I know we always say it, but that’s honestly how I feel all the time - I don’t know what the hell they’re thinking here, because you cannot write a story like this, you cannot insert all these tropes and bend and twist and narrative so stuff will only work with the foundation of a Great Love, and not see it. You physically cannot, especially if you’re a trained screenwriter and this is literally your job. So they do see it, and what? I don’t mind the UST and the pain and the slow-burn (much), but I still wish they would make it clear that this is indeed where they’re going, because they can’t keep writing this shit and pretending they aren’t. It’s - if someone had written S8 as a Destiel - canon divergent after S7 fic on AO3, I’m not sure I would have read it. So gay that it’s almost OOC, I would have thought, and there’s not even the comfort of some smut - it’s all angst, all the way, and come on - even this show is not that gay.

Except it is, isn’t it?

Lucky us.

#ask #spn meta #destiel #deancas #spn season 8 #love tropes #love tropes everywhere #seriously #wtf

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themegalosaurus · 8 years

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Ok so here's a random question for you - I'm rewatching season 9, and I get to the end of "The Purge". Now I'm a Dean!girl and I love him, but I'm still so mad at him about the whole fallout from Gadreel. I don't feel like he ever really understood where Sam was coming from. Why do you think he just never got it? I know you're a Sam!girl and I love your meta/analysis so I was just wondering if you had any thoughts :-)

Oh gosh, this issue has in the past proven to be a bit of a minefield so let me try and pick my way across it with some caution. I’ll put it under a cut so those members of fandom who get war flashbacks at the very mention of S9 can scroll on by, haha.

I definitely agree with you that during the fallout from Gadreel, Dean doesn’t ever really admit the grounds for Sam’s anger and unhappiness. He (sort of) addresses the fact that Kevin dies, and that Sam feels responsible - at least, he addresses it insofar as he tells Sam that Sam wasn’t responsible and shouldn’t feel guilty and ‘that’s on me’, although of course to stop feeling guilty about something is much easier said than done (and as Sam reveals at the end of the season, Dean labelling himself as the guilty party for Kevin’s death doesn’t help Sam with his intrusive dreams about murdering his friend). But apart from that he more-or-less frames the issue as Sam being angry with Dean BECAUSE DEAN SAVED HIS LIFE and beyond that perhaps that Dean lied to Sam IN ORDER TO SAVE HIS LIFE. In fact, of course, the reason that Sam is deeply upset by the Gadreel scenario is quite other than that. Sam has a history of having his reality manipulated by external forces which take hostile control of his body: the demon blood Azazel put in his mouth and the psychic powers it facilitated; his position as Lucifer’s vessel and the related knowledge that demons were possessing key figures in his life, throughout his life, as per 5x22; sort-of the soullessness of S6 and the fact that Sam’s body was making decisions and taking actions that Sam would not have carried out himself; certainly the hallucinatory mess of S7. As such it is not surprising that he should be extremely hurt by what happened in S9, where Dean (‘stone number one’, supposedly) not only allowed a foreign being INTO SAM’S BODY but also colluded with that being in deceiving Sam over several months, such that Sam was driven to question his own physical and mental health (he’s losing time, he feels exhausted and sort of emotionally thin, he despairs that he’ll be this way for ever, ‘maybe this is just me’ [9x08]). That he should find out the truth of this is bad enough but that he should do so through an extraordinarily traumatic series of events that includes his body being used for repeated acts of bloody murder, his skull being penetrated with huge great needles so that Crowley can access the angel inside him, and a double possession in which Crowley enters his body to help him expel Gadreel, is just… it’s so horrible. It’s horrific.

So the fact that Dean can look at all of that and come out the other end with ‘Sam is unreasonably angry that I didn’t let him die, which was actually the Right Thing To Do because Sam is important to me and I wouldn’t be without him’ is… interesting and I think you’re right to question it. That’s particularly the case given that on one level Dean clearly DOES know what it is that has upset Sam, because it’s the reason he was reluctant to agree to Gadreel’s plan in the first place. In the hospital room he says quite clearly that Sam would never consent to being possessed and that he’d ‘rather die’. And then during the period where Gadreel is possessing Sam and Sam doesn’t know about it, again, Dean’s shown as being conscious on several occasions that there’s something very sinister in having an occupying power inside your own body. But at the same time, at that point he’s already committed himself to Gadreel’s plan, and I suppose to have let the angel into Sam’s body and then for it not to have been worthwhile anyway might feel a little like the worst of both worlds. Either way, it’s definitely clear that Dean does understand the issue with the idea of possession (leaving aside of course all the context from earlier in the show, all the stuff in S5 about not wanting to be Michael’s vessel, just look at his face in 9x02 when Abaddon is threatening to possess him).

So when, in the Purge, Sam tells Dean that he wouldn’t 'save’ Dean under the circumstances of 9x01 (and god, there’s a whole other meta to be written on ‘saved’, especially (tho not exclusively) in relation to Sam’n’Dean, and all the messy uncomfortable meanings that the word takes on), anyway when Sam says ‘same circumstances, I wouldn’t’ and Dean takes that as meaning that Sam wouldn’t save Dean’s life at all under any conditions, I think it’s difficult to argue that that’s a genuine mistake on Dean’s part. At least part of Dean’s brain knows what that means. But I think the reason he responds the way he does is a lot to do with Dean’s fears and insecurities and about the unhealthy patterns that have developed in their relationship as a result of the fundamental tension between what Dean wants – Sam, beside him, enjoying the hunting lifestyle – and what Sam wants, which does often seem to be something else (and crucially, I think, DEAN thinks deep in his heart of hearts that Sam wants something else). Specifically, it’s clear that Dean is afraid a lot of the time that Sam will leave him. Like, that’s quite evident from S1 onwards (‘There’s got to be something you would want for yourself –‘ ‘Yeah, I don’t want you to leave the second this thing’s over, Sam’ [1x16]) and it carries on being true throughout the show. He says so, even, right then in 9x13 when Sam asks what the point is, 'what’s the upside of me being alive?’ (!!!! ugh my heart breaks): 'You and me, fighting the good fight, together.’ He says the same thing in 11x11, when Sam is apologising for the umpteen billionth time over the fact that he briefly settled down with Amelia: 'All that matters now, all that’s ever mattered, is that we’re together.’ So I think if we see that as a primary motivating factor then it helps to make a lot of sense about why Dean sort of wilfully fails to recognise Sam’s feelings about the Gadreel incident in season 9 and thereafter.

Basically as I see it, Dean feels (at whatever level of consciousness) like if he admits that he really, seriously fucked up in inviting Gadreel into Sam’s body on Sam’s behalf - if he even partly concedes what an awful, fundamental violation it was - then surely Sam will go ahead and leave him. Right? He deserves to be left for it (which… we could discuss, I guess, but I think it’s not unreasonable for Dean to think that). If Sam feels righteously angry at Dean, if he sees Dean for the piece of crap that Dean so often declares himself to be, then what’s keeping him with Dean? Nothing.

On the other hand - as Dean has just had opportunity to observe in S8 - something that is very GOOD at keeping Sam attached to Dean is guilt. If Sam feels guilty then he can be easily persuaded into changing his behaviour in ways that pay off well for Dean’s vision of Sam-n-Dean on the road together. He gets Sam back into hunting at the start of the season by guilting him about abandoning Kevin (‘He was our responsibility. And you couldn’t answer the damn phone.’), and when Sam makes the decision to choose Dean over Amelia in 8x10 it’s couched in terms of obligation: ‘She does make me happy, and she could be waiting for me if I went back… But… with everything staring down at us, with all that’s left to be done… I don’t know.’ It’s not hard to see therefore why Dean should think that the main way to keep Sam engaged in hunting is by creating something about or for which he can feel responsible. Obviously the crisis in ‘Sacrifice’ – which ironically is what precipitated the whole Gadreel mess in the first place - shows the dangers of pushing this strategy too far (Sam feels so guilty that he’s actually willing to die) but I can see why Dean would fall back onto it as a tried-and-tested method of keeping Sam at his side. That is not to say that I think this is a totally cold, conscious decision, but I think part of Dean’s mind understands this and that you can see this madeevident in the way that he reacts to Sam’s anger about Gadreel. As per 8x23 , Sam is enormously worried by the suggestion that he is not a good enough brother to Dean – that he doesn’t love Dean enough. It’s not true, of course. If he didn’t love Dean as much as he did then the suggestion wouldn’t really hurt; if he didn’t love Dean then we wouldn’t get that moment in 5x16 where Dean drops the amulet in the trash and Sam’s heart sort of gently chunks in two before our very eyes. But (I guess since Stanford?? at least since Stanford) it’s easy for Dean to point at something and go ‘you don’t love me as much as I love you, BECAUSE,’ and to have Sam drop whatever argument they might be having and bend over backwards to make up for it (for Stanford, for Ruby, for leaving Dean with Lisa while he was “running around with no soul”). And that guilt’s a good way to keep Sam in the kind of apologetic, frantic frame of mind that (Dean thinks, for his own messed up reasons but perhaps not without some element of truth) is his best bet for keeping Sam at his side.

So what is Dean’s reaction to the events of 9x10? A) He tells Sam not to feel guilty about Kevin because that’s Dean’s fault, Dean is ‘poison’; b) he leaves Sam to deal with the trauma alone (or, with Castiel’s support, but then alone after that when Cas leaves to re-engage in his heavenly business); and c) he goes off with Crowley on a job which culminates in him taking on the Mark of Cain whilst deliberately turning down Cain’s offer to explain what precisely he’s getting himself into. The effect of which is a) to evade responsibility for what happened (this goes alongside the ‘it’s not something you’re doing, it’s what you are’ of 4x21 I think – if Dean ‘is poison’ then the bad things he does are somehow outside his agency, he can’t help them because that is just How He Is); b) to avoid having to confront the reality of how Sam is now feeling (this is about self-preservation mostly I think, and about Dean’s sort of inner need to feel like he’s more or less a righteous person – it’s a lot easier to feel like what he did was justified if he’s not been confronted, as Cas was, with the unpleasant hard reality of a newly suicidal Sam); and c) – this is a biggie – to push the onus of responsibility back onto Sam by making himself (Dean) a problem to be dealt with again. That is, by taking on the Mark of Cain (something that Dean repeatedly throughout S10 in particular will frame as a burden that he is nobly struggling to bear), Dean puts himself in a position where HE NEEDS SAM’S SUPPORT and Sam has shown again and again that he’s unable to resist that demand.

Again, I am not saying that Dean like sat down fully calm and plotted this all out as the best strategy to ‘get away’ with what he did to Sam with Gadreel. I don’t think it’s as conscious or deliberate as that. But equally I don’t think that the fact he has (HEEEEUUUUGE) abandonment issues and that it panics him to think of Sam leaving him is sufficient excuse for him to behave in a way that leaves Sam feeling guilty for being as upset as he is about what happens in S9. He was fully justified to be very very angry. Dean might have massive issues but Sam is a separate person and he doesn’t owe Dean support to the extent of sacrificing his own autonomy to keep Dean happy. That’s particularly the case given that Dean had so recently been directly confronted with the result of the assault that his behaviour had enacted on Sam’s self-esteem (yes, I’m talking about 8x23 again). So. Yeah. I certainly don’t agree with (for example) the meta that crossed my dash a few days ago that described Sam’s behaviour to Dean in S9, post-Gadreel, as ‘downright abusive’. Absolutely not.

Anyway. I think you can see a lot of the dynamic that I’m talking about in operation in episode 10x18, ‘Book of the Damned’. Here for example is the moment where Dean’s telling Sam and Charlie that they need to burn the book:

SAM: Look, just let us translate the book, okay? If there’s a cure, we’ll do it and deal with the consequences later. I can’t lose you.

DEAN: Really?

SAM: Yeah, really.

DEAN: You change your mind on that, cause that’s not what you said last time.

SAM: Oh, come on, man. You know I didn’t mean that.

DEAN: This is my cross to bear, Sam! Mine! And that book is not the answer! Now we got to destroy it before it falls into the wrong hands, and that includes me! I’m gonna go for a drive.

Here we get ‘Dean with the Mark-as-a-burden’ (‘This is my cross to bear, Sam!’) (conveniently ignoring the fact that four episodes earlier Cain’s suggested that it may also be Sam’s cross to bear, when Dean eventually MURDERS him, haha) and also ‘Dean guilting Sam about being a bad brother in order to win an argument’ (‘Really?’). Sam switches straight into defensiveness and Dean’s able to move the conversation the way that he wants it (and like… come on. By this point Dean should be pretty clear on the fact that Sam wouldn’t just let him die. Sam’s saved his life more than a handful of times between 9x13 and 10x18).

And then later that same episode, we also get to see the effect that this has had on Sam’s perception of the Gadreel incident. He’s talking to Charlie about that line of Dean’s, ‘that’s not what you said last time’, and they get onto Gadreel – but couched in terms that made me like… choke on my own tongue with outrage, aahahahaha

SAM: So, awhile back, we had a chance to, um…close the gates of Hell. And in order to do that, I would’ve had to die. And, I was okay with that, and I am okay with that, but Dean was not. And so, he uh…

CHARLIE: He saved you.

SAM: Yeah, he saved me.

CHARLIE: And let me guess, in doing so, he did something you didn’t want, and that pissed you off. And you said something that hurt him?

SAM: Yeah, that sounds about right.

CHARLIE: Brothers.

Like… hooooooooboy. There’s that ambiguous ‘saved’ again but what I’m really interested in is the way that Sam ‘saying something that hurt Dean’ – which in this context specifically is, ‘Same circumstances, I wouldn’t’ has somehow become equivalent to ‘he did something you didn’t want’ - that is, let another being possess your body, wipe your memories, commit murder with your very hands and then lie to you about it for several months. What do we learn from this? I guess, that Dean’s strategy of downplaying his own bad behaviour by making it an issue of LOVE, and who loves each other more (’brothers!’), has been pretty fricking successful. So I suppose I think that’s why he never ‘got it’ about Gadreel: he chose not to, and Sam (who does love his brother, and whose brief moment of assertiveness was built on a foundation of seriously shaky self-esteem) fell back into the pattern that they typically operate in, and here they are.

One last time. I am not saying that Dean rationalised this all out in his head and behaved on that basis. It’s more like… he’s learned through doing that this is an effective strategy to deal with Sam, or to keep things ticking over more or less the way he wants, and he’s scared enough about what his life would be like if Sam did leave him to resort to this tried-and-tested behaviour even though he’s smart enough and EMOTIONALLY smart enough that if he actually acknowledged what’s going on here then I think he would be able to realise how very fucked up it is.

So. Apologies for the enormous length of this answer, and for its slowness in arriving, but I’ve been thinking about it for a long time and I wanted to have it written out in full.

#layersoflies #jess replies #denugis #shoutout to the meta you just posted #dean negative #i mean it definitely needs the tag but i'm not trying to be unfair #my meta #my stuff #season 9 #this is the length of a fricking novel guys so like #settle in for a long read #hahaha

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