#but v9 doesn't seem to be setting things up like that

[bestworstcase]

You've said before that RWBY's writing can be non-formulaic other than the 3 Act structure that it follows. What is it then that makes RWBY's story and writing so different (especially from more typical pop culture writing) in that regard?

to be completely honest i think a significant factor is that rwby is written by people who care about telling a story and have a very clear vision of what story they want to tell that they are resolutely sticking to no matter what. rwby is pretty remarkable in its sheer indifference to 1. what the fandom wants and 2. mass market appeal. paraphrasing but isn't one of the writers on record saying that they keep an eye on the fandom and if they see a lot of people not getting something they try to make it more obvious in the text? <- i think about this all the time.

bc like. before V9 i tried really hard to manage my expectations because i didn't feel sure, at all, that i wasn't just reading around a bad case of protagonist-centered morality—like i could count on one hand the number of people besides me whose writing on salem aligned with my interpretation and what i thought was going to happen thematically in V9 was so DRASTICALLY different than what the fandom largely seemed to expect and when you're that far off the common thinking then it's kind of like, is it really everyone else who's wrong or is it just you?

and then it turned out i was right. i was in fact so right that i underestimated how hard V9 would go on delivering what was set up in the first eight volumes.

which is fucking mind-boggling to imagine from the writers' perspective. the fucking guts it take to have a finger on the pulse of this fandom and not budge an inch on what this story is about!

<- being formulaic is safe. it is easy. it's palatable. for all that everyone loves to complain about unoriginality, there are a lot of people who just want to be entertained by something familiar. rwby doesn't give a damn whether you like it or not, it's going to keep being the story that it is, you know?

so they're very willing to take creative risks. that's really the heart of it. but there are a few specific like, technical aspects of the narrative that make rwby what it is:

#1, the narrative status quo gets turned on its head not just once, but repeatedly. the fall of beacon, the lost fable, the fall of atlas, the ever after. and by my count there are at least two more key changes before the story ends. it's not all that common for stories to upend the narrative status quo once, let alone multiple times, but rwby is a story about change and the structure of the narrative reflects that. (this also synergizes quite well with the three-act structure.)

#2, the characters are wrong about all kinds of things in all kinds of ways, constantly. some of them lie. some of them make very confident, very wrong assumptions. all of them are working with incomplete information. the ancient immortal character who's spent millions of years alone is cryptic and awkward. half the cast belongs to the keeping secrets cult. the goddamned avatar of knowledge is an unreliable narrator because ruby asked specifically for ozpin's side of the story. the narrative blithely informs the audience in V5 that "truth is hard to come by" is an important enough theme to say it out loud and then throws the lost fable down like a gauntlet. good luck.

#3, related to the above, in most stories the heroic characters know (or learn) and believe the story's themes and the villainous characters reject the theme and embody the anti-themes. in rwby, theme/anti-theme is decoupled from narrative role: ozpin is on the heroic side, but he represents many of the story's anti-themes (fear, distrust, lack of faith in humanity, blind obedience of authority); salem is the main villain and notional big bad, but she believes the theme—so much so that the fandom regularly quotes her soliloquy to express the core theme: "even the smallest spark of hope is enough to ignite change," and "there will be no victory in strength." this opens the door to a lot of really interesting character complexity and is critical for making "salem wins by negotiation" narratively possible at all.

#4, the story takes fairytales seriously. what sets rwby apart from a lot of "deconstructed fairytale" stories is that the point of taking the fairytale logic apart is not to be clever or edgy or grimdark or hyperrealist or cynical about it; the conceit is a tragic, broken fairytale that keeps going forever until it's mended because fairytales are not real but they are true. rwby rejects the moral and emotional simplicity of fairytales in order to weave a fairytale about lifelike characters rather than archetypes. that's a lot rarer than darker and edgier retellings or irreverent parodies by a wide margin.

[strqyr]

With v9 really shining a light on the Ruby and Summer parallels and how Ruby being compared to Summer has shaped who she is. It makes me think about how this parallels Yang and Raven.

How Ruby feels like she has to have all the answers and how Yang in v5, trusted Ruby's opinion above her own.

Ruby gets compared to Summer being a good huntress and how she would be proud of her. While Yang gets Ravens stubbornness and she then apologizes for it. Tai does clarify after that it's not a bad thing. But those responses are telling.

I think about how sad it is that these two who were raised by the same mother. Seem to now have totally seperate moms. How quickly yang discovered summer wasn't her mom, after she disappeared. And how that must have shaped both of their lives.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this train of thought?

well, what this immediately made me realize is that much of how ruby and yang view summer and raven is based around how qrow talks about them; with ruby and summer there are obviously others making comparisons as well, but the point is, tai wouldn't talk about them (the most he told yang about raven was that they were on the same team so like. that's your baseline on how much he would actually talk about), so that left qrow as someone who knew both of them well.

and this is where the scenes qrow has with yang in V3 and with ruby in V7 come in. to yang, qrow reveals that he knows more about raven and her whereabouts that he has let on previously (they even talk! sometimes about yang, even!!) but also that raven's got "an interesting way of looking at the world" that he doesn't particularly agree with. oh, and also she's dangerous.

it's no wonder then that yang's first response is to apologize, to see any comparisons made to raven as a bad thing, when tai does so. of course, tai sets the record straight, and spends more time talking about the positive traits of raven that he sees in yang, too; her strength, her ambition, and her dedication to whatever cause she thought worth fighting for

"I'm proud of how much of her I see in you. But, I'm glad I don't see all of her in you."

this conversation gives yang a more balanced view of raven, and more importantly that despite any similarities and comparisons made, they're not the same person. but also that it's not just all bad... just like summer isn't going to be all good, either.

but that's pretty much how qrow talks about summer to ruby. to parallel his scene with yang, this time around qrow reinforces the previous assumption that no one actually knows anything about summer's final mission. it was a summer secret, through and through. but still, she was "the best of us", if a bit of a brat, but hey. he likes brats, so it's not really a bad thing.

all her life, ruby has seen any and all comparisons to summer as a good thing. it's a compliment, because summer was just that great. the best, even. so when someone does it and doesn't actually mean it as a compliment, it doesn't register. and as such, ruby also seeks validation for her choices from it; the moment she feels uncertainty with her choices, she goes and asks "what would have summer done, had she found the truth?"

but unlike yang, ruby hasn't gotten that balancing talk yet. every single thing said about summer has been said in a positive light. seemingly summer has no flaws, she would have done everything right, she was the best... and she failed. the hero went to fight the monster, and there was no fairytale ending. the world wasn't made better. and it's that pressure, the feeling of needing to measure up to summer and still being faced with failure, that is crushing ruby at the moment.

sidenote, but this is also why i'm concerned over the possibility that alyx didn't actually make it home. ruby has been following in summer's footsteps, and the end looks like a failure. now she's following in alyx's footsteps to try and get back home, but if it turns out that alyx never succeeded, then that's just. oof.

and also why i think that's exactly what's going to happen because ruby needs to realize she doesn't need to be summer (she isn't) or alyx (as weiss said, they aren't), she just needs to be herself:

"You do not go to the tree, the tree goes to you. Unless, of course, you're me, you see?"

taking into account the role qrow has played in this—being the person telling ruby stories, be it about summer or how ~special~ silver-eyed warriors are—it gives me a stronger reason to believe raven is going to play a part in ruby's journey—possibly by being the way out of the ever after, they still want to go home but if alyx's way doesn't work out (or wasn't real in the first place) then you need another way, and raven has a portal that can take them directly home to tai, who can then have a similar balancing talk with ruby as he had with yang—because raven directly calls out the fact that qrow has been filling ruby's head with stories, and that "you sound just like your mother" was not meant as a compliment:

"The truth is that "truth" is hard to come by. A story of victory for one person is a story of defeat for someone else. By now, your uncle has surely told Ruby and her friends plenty of stories."

either way, one way or another, ruby is going to get it drilled into her head that she doesn't need to be summer, that being like summer isn't necessarily a good thing, that summer had flaws too, and that she can, in fact, be just herself and still be successful.

[chaikachi]

Do you think part of the reason why Ruby was so upset at Blake and Yang in particular isn’t because she’s genuinely mad they got together (or homophobic as I’ve seen some people joke) but because she’s /jealous/ that they were able to take enough time for themselves to even think about their own personal relationship, when meanwhile Ruby has been fighting for her life since the end of volume 3? Like maybe Ruby would love to stop and talk to her friends and sister about her potential love interests (as a girl her age should get the chance to) but she doesn’t have /time/, and seeing Yang and Blake kiss just made her realize what she’s been denying herself in order to be the Heroic Leader. idk I’m in my rosegarden feels and I bet watching Yang and Blake be so close just makes her feel more alone than ever.

LMAO I'VE SEEN THE HOMOPHOBIC JOKES 🤣🤣 how anyone actually believes that allegation is very funny. But yeah I agree. Since the very beginning of the show, Ruby has just wanted to be a normal girl with normal knees who can "paint her nails, try on clothes, and talk about cute boys" with her friends (Note: Oscar has been called cute twice already in show). And Ruby has not had the chance to do so at all because she hasn't stopped moving. Even leading up to v9, everyone else had other things they were focusing on and she's just been trying to hold everybody up. Never taking time for herself to sort out her own struggles. So she's feeling alone and left behind. I went over it a bit in the Treasure Analysis about the framing at the end of v9e6 where the Bees are warm and cozy by the fire, Weiss is warm with her cup of tea, and Ruby is sitting cold by herself by the window across from an empty chair. All alone in crowded rooms without the one person that makes her not feel that way.

The volume starting with Oscar as the very first illusion that Neo uses - and RG being the only pair that was split up in v8 that didn't end up reunited in v9 - sets up his absence very strongly right out the gate. And that absence just seems to grow with each episode.

As much as I do love RG, I don't know that Ruby necessarily knows she likes Oscar or has reached that point. At least not yet, but distance makes the heart grow fonder (as we have seen with Renora and the Bees) and I have a feeling we're not ready for how close they're going to end up when everyone is back in Vacuo.

Part of her upset here in the Ever After, is that she is crushed under the weight of so many things that she doesn't even have time to entertain such an idea as a crush. In any other circumstance, Ruby would have been elated about so much of what they're experiencing. She would have been excited for the bees just like she had been in v6 and she would have been all over this fairytale nonsense in the Ever After.

But she's tired. Weiss is snapping at her every other hour, Jaune is a broken husk of himself and needs their help more than he can offer it in return, and the Bees got to spend time sorting out their feelings and find comfort and support in each other... while Ruby is just dealing with all of this on her own.

She doesn't feel seen. She doesn't feel wanted. She doesn't feel prioritized. The only person that ever asked 'what about Ruby' is in another dimension and the only one in Ever After that noticed before she broke was Little (who has VERY STRONG PARALLELS to Oscar as I just brought up in a recent ask).

This volume is very rough emotionally on our characters, but I'm really optimistic for Vacuo being an arc of resting, rebuilding, and recovering for all of them. But especially for Ruby. Because there ain't no way all of what was brought up this last episode can be resolved in the 3 we have left until the season is over. But at least Oscar is waiting for her with open arms once she gets there. 🌲💕

[blackdagger456]

Lets Talk About: RWBY VOLUME 9 EPISODE 5

Alright let's jump right into it!

Overall the pacing of this episode and the others was great as has been the case with the whole of this Volume. Ilike how they explained the 'afterlife' of the Everafter or really, it's way of reincarnation.

Because that's exactly what it is, reincarnation. When their purpose is fulfilled or someone is broken they return to the Everafter and ascend to a new form and purpose. It's a nice concept that felt organically explained.

The highlights of this episode however were, as seems to be the theme of this Season, towards the latter half.

Firstly, we have Ruby talking to the weaponsmith.

I feel like every time we separate Ruby from her friends and family we're going to get her going through a crisis. Here we once again see her fall into the trap of the "I'm the leader, responsibility and blame falls on me. I can handle it all." Mindset.

But honestly? I feel like she's breaking that mindset down and not in a good way. The way her eyes go from open to half lidded and her voice becomes monotone is direct proof of that, she's saying that not because she believes it.

She's saying it because she's trying to keep herself moving one step at a time. An action that is proving to be very difficult as she sees Penny in her sword and then later on sees an image of her mother in the blade of an axe.

There's this theme of Ruby giving away or letting go of her past that seems to be playing out here and I am admittedly excited to see where it goes. The Weaponsmith telling Ruby to "Set her burden down." and saying that she's "Searching for something she doesn't know." are driving that plot theme home but it's also dangerous.

Because Ruby could also misinterpret those words as her needing to just let EVERYTHING go. A path that, at this point, may sound more appealing to her.

Now let's get to the last part of the episode i found myself surprsingly enjoying.

Jaune Arc The Rusted Knight.

I admit, I was NOT looking forward to Jaune being here. I've stated this before in a previous post and discussed it with friends but putting Jaune here could/might take away from Ruby and Co like he's done before. It's not his fault it's the writers fault for making his charcater do that but that, among other things in hindsight, has made my views on Jaune take a nosedive over the years RWBY has been going on.

So when I saw him show up I was like "Welp, knew it was gonna happen. Saw him fall, let's see what he's been up too."

And what he's up to has been, presumedly, ALOT!

I admit i was NOT expecting this. It seems time works differently in the Everafter in the best or worst way possible depending on how you look at it. Jaune has obviously been here for a very long time, beard aside there are GREYS in his hair. It's something that RWBY picks up on instantly.

Look at the mix of shock and horror on their faces. Their friend has been here all this time ALONE. They found each other quickly but him?

He's had nobody for who knows how long. He's a full on adult as of this moment and now V9 has my attention on this man, something I thought would never happen again.

Here's hoping they can keep it going forward.

[kitkatopinions]

Sorry to come into your ask box to vent after your post...

But I gotta say, you certainly managed to really sum up everything I dislike about the mentality of "subverting expectations = good storytelling" folks.

Like, it had been such a thing for people to say "X is so good because it subverts audience expectations!" And it's been driving me up a wall because that's just such a backward mentality about it: subverting audience expectations is a completely neutral thing, and one can just as easily ruin a story by going against audience expectations as tell a good story by playing out what the audience might be expecting.

Which, not to necessarily be mean about RW//BY, but yeah... that so many passionate defenders of it are also of the "a story is good cuz it subverts expectations" crowd is... not unexpected.

No, but for real! The way that people and seemingly a lot of writers think that surprise = good is frustrating!:This is one reason why spoilers are such a big deal to people, is that their viewing experience seems to bank on surprise and shock about who might die, who ends up together, who wins what victory in the end. I should be able to know all the plot points and plot twists going in and still enjoy the finished product just as much. If something isn't well set up (Adam's switcheroo in motives, the existence of the gods, Penny being a flesh person, the Ever After, Blake's personality change, arguably Ruby's depression in V9,) or not well done (Ironwood's fall to villainy, Ozpin's gray morality, the bees, Neo's eventual suicide, Ruby's journey as a SEW, the whole morals of the whole show) then whether or not it 'subverts expectations' is entirely irrelevant.

People are fully allowed to complain that they thought a piece of media would do something they wanted and instead did something they personally don't like that much, also, because that IS a bummer. But when I complain about RWBY, most of the time it's not just because I'm salty that it isn't doing what I think I'd personally like more. Like, I like the game Octopath Traveler, but I wish it wasn't that 8-bit looking early video game design, but at the end of the day I don't care because just because it doesn't fit my personal preference doesn't mean it isn't good. I wish Zuko had joined the Gaang earlier in ATLA or had more time with the Gaang than he did, but I still think Zuko's story is as close to perfect as it probably could've been. I just write or read fanfiction for the personal preference stuff. But the complaints I typically have for RWBY aren't like that. Like YEAH I actually DO prefer stories without heroes falling to villainy and with lots of redemption arcs, but I'm not about to hate RWBY just for not following my own personal preferences. No, I criticize RWBY for the bad execution, the lack of emotional pay-off in their story beats, the inconsistent morality they splash here and there whenever it sounds good and then forget about. RWBY is a confused show packed with ideas that never seem to be able to come together and writers that seem more interested in making giffable moments than a well done story. It's just generally not a well written well executed show.

I think that 'it subverts your expectations' is just one of many excuses that people use to wave away criticism with as little thought or effort or need to actually engage in discourse as possible. Just like complaints that the writers weren't interested in good world building and lore and therefore the transition from the moster school drama Beacon Era into magical world traversing quest wasn't well done are waved away with 'you're just mad the writers aren't following your headcanons' or 'you just want cute girls to go brr and hate substance' without actually addressing the true meat of the complaint or offering any substantial counterargument.

BTW, complain any time! I don’t mind hearing it at all. XD

[bug-the-chicken-nug]

Every day I get so annoyed that Ruby should by all means be like insanely strong but like. She just sucks at remembering to use her powers effectively and being serious about mastering them.

Especially because Ruby is introduced to us as someone with multiple conventional "smart" traits, but then they can't be assed to be consistent about it.

She got accepted into Beacon early, she made her own weapon, she likes books.... but then, because it's funny, suddenly she, the WEAPONS engineer, which would involve ELECTRONICS, doesn't know what polarity is.

Which could've still been fun if that was the point! Like if they were consistent about her being a "genius ditz" type who has one area of exhaustive knowledge but is kind of airheaded in other areas!

But no, they couldn't set that up consistently either.

So I'm still pissy about that scene where Penny somehow knows more about her Semblance than her.

And annoyed with the general thing of how ever since her Semblance has pretty much exclusively become turning into rose petals, it seems SLOWER than just the super speed.

Because if it weren't, let's be real, even powered-up Neo would be in for a rough time in v9. You can have all the solid illusions you want, and it won't help you if you opponent can dodge practically anything and can also punch, kick, swing, and fly at super speed as well.

"uuu But then the show's boring because she wins too easily"

there are like dozens of different ideas for Grimm and enemy plots that can create situations where speed and brute force aren't enough to resolve conflicts. It's not my fault that Grimm are used as fodder 99% of the time, and the times where they could be used creatively end up squandered.

[invested-in-your-future]

I wanted to know your opinion on WBY's epiphany in v9 ep. It seems like the show wants to present that their character arcs have been completed and they're fully realized hunters now, but imo there wasn't enough consistent development leading up to that. If anything, Weiss' relevancy in v7-8, aka the Atlas arc, her homeland, was pretty underwhelming. And Yang... It might be just me, but I comprehended her line as "Suffering is what made me stronger and therefore I wouldn't have changed a thing" and if that's what she meant, it's not a good message by any means.

The issue is that RT believes to have completed their arc but there's not really even an arc to be found for those characters.

V3 set up the issues for all the characters.

The show then kind of stood still not doing anything with them

And then V9 proudly proclaimed that everything is fine and trauma isn't real.

The "My traumatic experiences don't define me but I grew stronger overcoming them" can be a positive message IF THE SHOW HAS SHOWN the said overcoming and growth. It Hasn't. The show, via Taiyang and Professor Sexual Harassment told Yang that PTSD is like moping and fear of rats and to shut up and go search for Ruby. Then Yang spent all the rest of her screentime being vaguely angry at things like she always did. And that's it. Where is the arc? where's the growth? You can cut out all the seasons between 3 and 9 and nothing changes in terms of her character.

As I outlined before its actually one of crucial issues why the final scene with them cheering Ruby up doesn't work. Weiss arc is hanging somewhere barely having started (and the key elements of it are gone already), Yang's arc never started and Blake outright doesn't have an arc now.

Even relationship-wise, V3 set-up for Blake and Yang and their issues still has no pay off. They even killed a man(a someone that is the SOURCE OF THEIR TRAUMA) together and that has never been addressed.

At this point RWBY is the show where all the interesting or important things are offscreen or have never happened.

[tumblingxelian]

CRWBY's efforts to explore ideals of toxic masculinity and heroism through Jaune's character development are some of their most ambitious but also most troubled efforts I think. To see what I mean lets break this down by volume:

V1/3: This was messy as each volume seemed more insular in its handling of the topic.

V1, would have been fine if Jaune had learned he got help from Pyrrha and accepted it gratefully. But instead he's allowed to think he defeated the Ursa all on his own even though she outright saved his life cos he was ignoring Glynda's advice by neglecting his aura and defense. So it feels like only after he got a confidence boost was he willing to ask for help. The set up was there but not the execution

V2, just doesn't work with me cos I find his constant pestering of Weiss to be obnoxious at best & the fact he was the 'good guy' in that scenario and Weiss is forced to reconsider her views on him just rankles. Plus his annoyance with Pyrrha taking command when he wasn't doing so & swinging wildly with his sword to win don't really work. The dress scene isn't bad inherently, but I find the reliance on "I have sisters" and such to make it more muted. Especially as the gesture itself is kind of eh on its handling of gender presentation, but then this was like 2014.

V3 was good in that it was a tragic slap in the face to everything he was trying to do right. He was supportive, encouraging, he listened and was fine with stepping back to let Pyrrha be the face of the team. He was becoming the kind of person worthy of his position. Then Pyrrha shows a lack of faith in him (From his perspective) and he's left helpless as she dies, setting up the next stage

V4/6 This is much tidier and it all flows together much better.

Jaune forgoes defense in favor of offense with his giant and largely useless super sword. He falls back on anger and lashing out to cope with his grief. He outright has a death wish which only serves to endanger himself & others while gaining them nothing.

He is generally falling into a really unhealthy mindset but is guided through it, begins adopting a more supportive role and comes out with a solid resolution. The main struggle with this is was it isn't obvious that was the plan until V6/7, so in the interim it could be quite frustrating in places. V7/9 In the first two of these volumes Jaune is at his peak.

He's not prideful but quite humble, fine with taking escort missions with kids and doing a good job at it. He's empathic and supportive, trying to encourage his friends and not responding in anger when they are upset. Plus he keeps a good handle on his temper & has really embraced his role as someone who provides support and healing over raw power.

Which makes his inability to help Penny all the more tragic. & his utter degradation in V9 all the more poignant and powerful, especially as so much of it is at least partially self inflicted by refusing to move & trying desperately to fulfill and idea and role he had been outgrowing. His obsession with it a bid to compensate for his failure.

The issue mostly came down to timing as it felt like focus was given to his resolutions and feelings in scenes where it came at the expense of others, IE Episode 9.

Conclusion: Looking over the 9 volumes of story, let alone the added material there is certainly a lot of stuff done well on these topics. But its also very easy to see where bits and piece did not quite fit together, or were otherwise unable to meet their potential. Still, I am glad CRWBY have the ambition to try these things, its part of what makes me love RWBY so much.

[onewomancitadel]

This is not to humblebrag or anything but just because I don't trust my own judgement so I'm trying to square it out. Anyway here's a list of things broad narrative beats I've got wrong or didn't expect about RWBY (since watching during V1):

Salem reveal (V3)

Ozlem backstory (V6)

Ruby/Oscar (I didn't pay attention to this one until around V8 - to be totally fair, it's not what one would ordinarily call canon-canon yet)

I thought Cinder was dead at the end of V5 (I own this, I did believe it because it was what other people were saying and I flounced from the fandom and the show hgdoigjdig)

Most recently with V9 I had optimistically hoped for more interesting Jaune development re: Penny, but I dismissed the notion of magical ageing or a literal curse

Here's a list of things I've figured out correctly:

Pyrrha's death (V3)

Qrow not dying (V4 - this one feels significant because I remember reading so many comments/speculation expecting his death, but maybe it was different on Tumblr?)

Ozpin's reincarnation (V4 - not unique but I was pretty set on this in the early volume era)

Spring Maiden!Raven (V5 - I think this was one most people figured out)

Ironwood's fall (V7)

Cinder's backstory (I predicted this back during V1 so you'll have to forgive the gloating)

Emerald redemption arc (predicted in V2 lol); Winter's (this one was probably a gimme, to be fair); Hazel's (back in V5 - but most of the fandom seemed pretty warm to him)

Penny's death (V8 - and yeah back when I was reading fandom speculation this one was rough)

Not sure exactly where to put this, but my money on Blake/Yang had been there since V3. I wasn't a shipper either, which is not to give more credence to my opinion, but that I wasn't inured in the ship fandom

There are probably some I've missed, but I'm just constraining it to major narrative beats and the types of things I think tend to be foreshadowed. Off the top of my head I didn't buy into the implication of time shenanigans with Atlas based on the intro that a lot of people were theorising about and I think that's an example of symbolic interpretation taken too far. I also wasn't sure whether to include something like Jaune's Semblance, which you could sort of predict based on allusion-level things as well as the set-up with his Aura, but it seemed like that was a thing most people agreed upon anyway.

The reason I'm writing this out is because I think that RWBY generally carries pretty intelligible narrative logic, and mostly I wanted to convey where my personal goodwill comes from. Any other story and I'd personally dismiss the notion of Cinder's redemption arc and Jaune/Cinder - and to be frank, if they don't go in that direction then I think most of my goodwill would be lost just because of how it ties into the rest of the story.

Of course I spend time ruminating on what I got wrong, and I think the implication of Salem is evident in retrospect and romantic Ozlem seems like the most reasonable direction they could've taken that backstory. I also readily admit that I've been insecure in my own interpretation and for the longest time, genuinely up until the last couple of years (and I guess it was partly a teenager thing during the course of the show, lol) I pretty much wholesale dismissed my own feelings and interpretations.

Which is obviously something I still struggle with, despite the fact I put forth a pretty polemic thesis. It doesn't help that I've been in some pretty bad fandoms, and it's not like this fandom is exactly welcoming to some of the things I think the story is doing lol.

I guess - from a more impartial perspective, taking my emotional investment out - what I really want to know is where the consistency is or isn't in the narrative, and what it is or isn't good at flagging. You can make the argument most of it's coherent and they decide to do something like Jaune/Weiss just as a joke and to give them both something to do; you can't really account for authorial whimsy, like not at all. But on the other hand, the problem is that the Jaune/Cinder romance is tied up into things I think have serious narrative stakes and potential in the story, which would effectively mean most of the foundation really, really isn't there. I also think that there are things about Jaune/Cinder that make the other romances more understandable (e.g. Ruby/Oscar, certain Adam characterisation) so it's not like you can really read this sort of thing in isolation.

Again, I don't really trust my own judgement and I really bowed to fandom pressure for the longest time. It sounds kind of petty, I know, but I'm used to suppressing my better instincts in general, and that's easy to do in spaces where everyone else is saying one thing and you don't buy it lol.

What I'm personally wondering is whether that gut instinct holds up.

[kali-writes-meta]

I May Fall and What Comes Next in Volume 8

Jeff Williams has done wonderful work writing the songs for RWBY. He has access to the Show Bible, which has character profiles as well as the main arc outline, and has used it to sprinkle his songs with deeper character insights and foreshadowing of both plot developments and lore drops. This makes his incredible music even more loved and valued.

But amongst all his RWBY songs, one of them really stands out. I May Fall was included in the V1 soundtrack and end credits, and used again in one of the V3 final battles. But unlike all his other songs (with the exception of Bmblb) I May Fall doesn't refer to contemporary or past events. It's a song about an event that even as of V3 was still set in the future, that Jeff had read about in the Show Bible while working on V1, and that he found so exciting he had to go on and write a song about it right then, even though the event itself was still years in the future.

What could the event be? I think we may have seen the start of it. The events described in the first half of the song look a lot like events that happened during the V7 finale. If that is the case, then the second half of the song may contain clues about events that will happen in V8.

First let's look at the lines in the song which seem to correspond with recent events.

There's a day when our hearts will be broken

When a shadow will cast out the light

(That thing's got to cast a whale of a shadow.)

And our eyes cry a million tears

Help won't arrive

There's a day when our courage collapses

And our friends turn and leave us behind

I may fall

But not like this -it won't be by your hand

I may fall

Not this place, not today

I may fall

Bring it all-it's not enough to take me down

I may fall

(I moved a line and a verse back because I think they refer to future events. I don't now whose artistic liscence is at work, but Rooster Teeth had rearranged outlined events for greater impact before, and the story is the better for it.)

The rest of the song seems to be talking about two upcoming battles. The first one is a defeat.

Creatures of darkness will triumph

The sun won't rise

"The sun won't rise" is easy to predict. It's dawn, the sun is coming up, but the shadow of all those Grimm are going to blot out the light in Mantle, so it'll seem as if the sun was gone.

When we've lost all hope

And succumb to fear

As the skies rain blood

And the end draws near

Things are going bad, not just for our heroes but for everyone. The line I'm curious about is "the skies rain blood". There's two possibilities. One, Salem drops some substance on Mantle that looks like blood. It's a valid attack. We don't know yet if she's riding the Gothic pinnacle of pimped-out Cadillac Convertibles or if Monstro has offensive capabilities, but I'd bet on the latter.

The other option is the literal interpretation, that actual blood is falling from the sky. Salem's ground forces have Mantle well in hand, with the defenders retreating even before Salem's conference call. She focuses her air force on a brutal attack on Atlas, catching the entire kingdom in a classic pincer manuever, giving her the upper hand over Ironwood and forcing the Atlasian government to submit to her terms. If I were a ruthless force of destruction who played a mean game of chess, it's what I would do.

There's a place where we'll stand outnumbered

Where the wolves and the soul-less will rise

In the time of our final moments

Every dream dies

There's a place where our shields will lay shattered

And the fears all that's left in our hearts

Strength and our courage have run out

We fall apart

Our heroes gets in over their heads and gets their asses whooped. Interestingly, one of these lines was foreshadowed in V7. "There's a place where our shields will lay shattered". Remember this bit?

Your new weapons and armor should be as requested, but I also took the liberty of reviewing your combat footage from the Vytal Festival Tournament. There’s some additional enhancements I’d like to suggest. Oh, but for now, these should serve you well enough.

Pietro already has the plans for their pro upgrades, but the opportunity for them never arose. Some people thought that was bad writing, but it looked like foreshadowing to me. If their shields are shattered in V8, he's got them covered.

When we lose our faith

And forsake our friends

When the moon is gone

And we reach our end

This defeat is our team's darkest hour so far, even darker than Beacon. They question everything, starting with themselves.

I may fall

There's a moment that changes a life when

We do something that no one else can

And the path that we've taken will lead us

One final stand

There's a moment we make a decision

Not to cower and crash to the ground

The moment we face our worst demons

Our courage found

When we stand with friends

And we won't retreat

As we stare down death

Then the taste is sweet

I may fall

But not like this -it won't be by your hand

I may fall

Not this place, not today

I may fall

Bring it all-it's not enough to take me down

I may fall

I may fall

I may fall

I may

I may fall

But they regroup, make a better plan, and win the second battle. "Then the taste is sweet."

At this point we can't say how much time passes between the two battles. They could both happen in V8 or the second one could happen in V9. Certainly enough time has to pass for us to appreciate the pain our protagonists are going through. But it all points to V8 being the most intense season of RWBY so far.

[bestworstcase]

Okay so about halfway down this post https://www.tumblr.com/bestworstcase/732581936677158912/what-do-you-make-of-ozmas-motivations-given-that?source=share I was struck with a sudden realization and I'm curious of your thoughts on it. Jaune as the Rusted Knight is a stand-in for Ozma. Driven by guilt over the people he couldn't save, and determined to save everyone else whether they want it or not. Like, holding the Paper Pleasers hostage is analogous to Ozma's laser focus on preparing humanity for the gods' return, or rather, on preventing humanity from becoming something that doesn't need the gods' return. Like maybe there's nothing here past the surface level? This is one of those things that just hit me and I'm writing it down before it leaves my brain forever yk

no yeah absolutely ->

“they don’t know what they want! […] afterans are all either too clever, too stupid, or too crazy to trust!”

“i feared that making you all aware would only add anxiety and negativity. [not telling them grimm are attracted to the relics] seemed like the safer option.” and “i believed the kingdom of mistral deserved better than the truth.”

and “do you really think leo was the first? […] i’m sorry, but you have to understand that my behaviors are backed by experience. i’m not saying i have reason to think you will betray me; i’m saying that i have reasons for the things i do, the secrets i keep, the reason i…”

so all those times you talked about having faith in humanity, that was just for everyone else?

same behavior. same condescension. same motive—to protect the vulnerable (ignorant, dependent) people of an unfamiliar world from annihilation. and just as ozma repeats the same cycle over and over again across every life, so does jaune do the same things every single day; both of them stagnating in circles of their own making.

two things interest me about this.

the first is that jaune is, prior to V9, salem’s heroic foil—the “lovable idiot stuck in the tree while his friends fight for their lives,” the girl in the tower watching her father slaughter everyone who tries to help her. both of them defined by grief; cinder is to jaune as the god of light is to salem. what sets jaune apart from salem is that she just wanted to be free—whereas he wanted to be the hero.

so once jaune is forced into a position where he can’t save somebody [mercy-killing penny = killing ozma + the girls dying in the crossfire] that breaks him in the opposite direction it broke salem; she gives up and withdraws to live in isolation among grimm, he rots in this scenario he created where he gets to be the heroic protector. and in doing so he becomes ozma.

the interesting piece here is that the resolution to this arc, his restoration, comes by way of jaune letting go of his paranoid fear of the tree and accepting what the afterans told him: the tree doesn’t kill, it resurrects and rebuilds. it destroys in order to create.

in… other words, jaune-as-ozma doesn’t understand the importance of life and death. jaune-as-ozma cannot break his curse until he learns that the tree’s endless wheel of life-death-rebirth isn’t evil or cruel.

the second is that jaune as the rusted knight acts out of irrational fear: the certain threat of annihilation he imagines isn’t real. ozma, of course, heard “your world will be wiped from existence” directly from the god of light himself, so he has much greater reason to believe in it. but…

where is the god of darkness? if he still exists as he was then, does he know? did he agree to put humanity up to this test? if he ascended and became something new, he cannot return to remnant with his brother at all and his choice to ascend amounts to a permanent decision to leave remnant as it is and let humanity do as it will. is the divine contract even enforceable? can the brothers take back the power they abdicated when they left the planet in flames behind them?

the paper pleasers ascended and returned in a new form that could not be threatened by the force that wiped them out. the brothers revoked their blessings and wiped humankind off the face of the planet; salem remade herself in the pool of grimm, and humanity rose from the ashes.

for it is in passing we achieve immortality: through this we become a paragon of virtue and glory, infinite in distance and unbound by death. i release your soul, and by my shoulder protect thee.

our souls transcend death, says salem, who lived to see the mass grave the brothers left behind heave itself back to life again.

this force of pure destruction could not destroy a being of infinite life, so it created a being of infinite life with a desire for pure destruction. (humans are both destruction and creation, dark and light in one.)

when alyx’s life ended, she chose to leave a part of herself behind: a wish to fix what she had broken…

…as salem fixed the broken moon.

remnant isn’t the brothers’ world; it is the world that became after the old world died. the tree does not kill; it resurrects and rebuilds. what power do the brothers actually have in this world they did not create?

[kitkatopinions]

I think that V9 really just made me convinced that the friendship between Team RWBY is pretty out of obligation and that their friendships and relationships will not last with the possible exception of Ruby and Weiss. Like, the writers might continue on to make them 'bffs forever' with relationships we're supposed to think are perfect, but I really just think they barely even like each other.

Trigger warning for discussions of attempted suicide.

Ruby spends the entire volume going through a terrible depression and grieving over the loss of her friend and struggling with trauma and very clearly not okay, and meanwhile only one of her friends really seem to care and only when she's not distracted. Ruby then blows up that she doesn't want to be the leader anymore, doesn't want to be treated like she's perfect, doesn't want to be the one who provides answers, and basically admits that she feels like no one cares what she goes through. Then her friends don't do anything when a forty year old man screams in her face that she's responsible for all bad things, don't do anything but watch as she basically tries to kill herself after being tortured, don't care much after the fact, and then when she comes back, they all basically says she's perfect and would never be weak and announce they're still looking to her as a leader for all their answers.

Blake and Yang have never addressed any of their actual past issues and Blake became a completely different person and the doylist reason might be that the writers just changed her character but in universe it feels like she did that for Yang, but then in V9 Yang is pretty much just blowing off all of Blake's concerns while Blake tries to control Yang's temper for her by coaxing Yang like a mom with a toddler, they were forced into confessing their feelings for each other and what Yang said to Blake basically amounted to 'I think it's cute that you're a minority, also here's some incorrect things that indicate that I don't pay attention to you or your past as an abuse victim,' and then the little sister that Yang supposedly cares about killed herself after implying that Yang was ignoring her for Blake's sake.

As for Weiss's relationship with Blake and Yang, did they even talk outside of Weiss telling them that Ruby was going through too much and sharing eye-rolls about how exasperating the Ever After was? Weiss put way more work into her friendship with Jaune than them and basically acted like they were just her co-workers and she was Angela in the first season of the Office.

And you know what, let's include Jaune in this too, because despite the fact that Jaune was closer to Ruby than almost anyone for the majority of the show... This whole thing made me not believe in them as friends from here on in. Jaune screamed in her face victim blaming her for stuff that wasn't her fault while basically saying she has no right to feel anything bad, after Ruby dismissed the Paper Pleasers as imaginary, and Jaune is now young again but has spent like twenty years apart from her and it would only make sense for Jaune to care way more about a lot of different things and it seems like he has a lot of resentment towards her built up. And meanwhile, I have no choice but to think they're trying to set up White Knight but he's??? Forty in his head??? And also Weiss was one of the people dismissing him as an unreliable crazy person. Which Blake and Yang also did, and he'd barely talked to Blake and Yang EVER before falling into the Ever After, especially Blake. Their little group hug meant next to nothing when half of them had no real relationship anyway and if there's a romance between Jaune and Weiss I cannot and will not believe that it'd ever work out especially now that's he's like mentally twenty years older than her.

The reason why I think that Ruby and Weiss have a chance for their friendship to survive is because they both still act like they care and would be willing to admit when they've been wrong. I honest to god feel like if Ruby tried to sit Yang down and have a conversation about feeling like Yang's past actions hurt her, Yang would get defensive or just be like 'what are you talking about of course I love you' and then go on doing the same stuff she was doing in volume 9. Of course I don't think the writers are actually going to act like anything is wrong or that anyone in the team needs to change and adjust and especially not anyone but Ruby (who somehow managed to get partially thrown under the bus this season for the power couple and the fandom's best girl and best boy 🙄) But I really just feel like no matter how much longer they writers try to make us think they're close friends, I'm still gonna feel like a year down the road Yang and Ruby will have very little contact, Blake and Yang will have broken up, Jaune and Ruby will be fighting, Weiss will have fallen out with Yang and Blake, and Ruby and Blake will have an incredibly awkward 'let's hang out some time,' small talk infused conversation like once every two or three months, and that's it.

[kitkatopinions]

Honestly there was no point at all to the Ever After. I'm being serious. Every conflict that was brought up or supposedly resolved in V9 could've been gone over in Vacuo and probably would've been more effective there except for conflicts specifically made for volume V9 like Little's storyline and the Cat and turning Jaune super old.

Jaune struggling with his trauma of having killed Penny? Him still kind of suffering from Pyrrha? Him fighting with Ruby? Him learning to accept that he can't save everyone and Hunters make mistakes? ALL of that could've been done in Vacuo with no Hand of the Creator forcing him along or randomly turning him into a forty year old. In fact, his storyline would be much better if he was still a nineteen year old, if Penny's death was still right at the forefront of his mind and not kind of forced to share with Alyx, Lewis, and the People Pleasers.

Weiss struggling with the loss of her home? Feeling like they failed and trying to correct it? Trying to push everyone to keep working so they can get somewhere? Struggling in a terrain and with circumstances she is not used to? All of that could also be accomplished easily in Vacuo and we could also be getting her dealing with her family and trying to help them deal with the sudden changes to their lives too (which would also make it easier to explain her not being there for Ruby.)

Blake and Yang getting together? Blake being the optimist? Blake being in a position to tell the others things? Yang being reckless and not taking things seriously? Both Blake and Yang somehow missing the giant 'Ruby is Not Okay' flags? All of that could also be accomplished in Vacuo. Blake could know more about Vacuo and how people there might react to the crisis because of the experience she's had with people from other kingdoms (being close to Sun, being in the White Fang all her life,) and she canonically comes from an improvished land with a desert outside. Also then there's again reason for at least Blake not being super observant with Ruby because of possibly her reconnecting with Sun (who let's be honest she still seems much closer to considering Blake and Ruby had like one weird conversation since... Volume one.)

(Discussion of attempted suicide beneath the keep reading)

Ruby feeling like a failure and struggling with the weight of everything? Her reacting to Penny's death? Her feeling like she's on her own here and needs people to step up? Her starting to feel like she doesn't even want to be herself anymore? Her lashing out at her friends and running off? All of that could be better in Vacuo. And honestly Ruby never should've 'tried to stop being herself and remove herself from existence' at all, but if the writers were dead set on doing it, then they wouldn't be able to backtrack if this was in Vacuo, and Ruby would actually have to get better the way everyone in the real world has to get better, after her attempt failed, and then her friends wouldn't be able to just brush it off as 'her choice' when she tried to kill herself, and the writers would've been forced to treat it seriously and not like something they can just write the girls to be flippant about because "it isn't really suicide." Everything for Ruby would've been improved if this had been a Vacuo season because the authors wouldn't have easy backtrack takebacks that let them be lazy and ultra harmful and make the rest of Ruby's team look like total jackasses who don't actually care about her that much.

Neo's storyline would also be better if she'd just followed them to Vacuo, because her semblance could still evolve, but she wouldn't take over the Jabberwalker which should by all rights make her even more OP than her semblance evolution already made her despite the fact that she was already one of the most OP characters in the show. Neo could hang back trying to get Ruby one on one because she's outnumbered in a kingdom that would be hostile against her and she doesn't want to show herself too quickly, instead of having her attack the team repeatedly and be beaten back despite their weakened state when she by all rights should've been running circles around them. Neo eventually accepting Roman's death and deciding to give up her revenge could still have happened - and hey, since death is still real and the writers would have to actually face the seriousness of suicide, maybe they wouldn't have had Neo commit suicide and have it brushed off as a good end to her character!

Also the exposition we get in the Ever After about the backstory of the gods is so not important. The only way it'll be important is if either the gods turn out to be the real big bads (which I think would be a bad idea) or the solution to the Salem problem winds up being 'stick her in the Ever After so she's someone else's problem' (another really bad idea.) Everyone's speculations that the Cat was going to be the guardian of the Crown of Choice turned out to be not true, and everyone's speculations that they'd figure out how to defeat Salem through some revelation they'd learn in the Ever After turned out to not be true, and the speculation that Oz hid the Beacon relic in the Ever After turned out to be not true or at least very much so not relevant at all right now.

Literally, the only reason I can see that the Ever After exists is 'because it was planned from the beginning' (likely meaning they had a vague 'lol what if the characters fell into a wonderland world' concept they never fleshed out) and because the writers cannot seem to manage to write character growth and plot to happen at the same time anymore and also don't know how to write growth or change in a good natural way. So they put their characters in Hand of the Creator Land and just said 'the universe was being weird' every time they forced something to happen. Literally might as well have called the world MKEK land instead of the Ever After and made 'the tree' actually four writers storyboarding the characters' adventures as they went along, who could tell Jaune 'the script says you need to accept death now and think you're a good hunter despite all of your...that, also we're the ones who made you old because we wanted all your fanboys to feel super sad for you.'

It just feels like everything would be improved by just cutting the Ever After entirely.

[invested-in-your-future]

Do you think that Team RWBY are supposed to be chosen or extraordinary, destined to save the world, or are they meant to be ordinary people doing their best in extraordinary circumstances? I've gone back and forth on it myself and I think you can argue it either way.

I think it really depends at which point of RWBY story we are talking about.

If to believe the narration at the beginning and everything, I think the original vision is 110% "Next Generation of ordinary people doing their best" kind of set-up and the only "predestination" is Ozpin having some control over who gets in and who doesn't , essentially stacking this generation of students with as many of wild cards and special cases as possible. A former WF member, a Schnee heiress, a girl with silver eyes, a prodigy champion from Mistral, some dude who cheated his way in and so on - These students are there because Ozpin sees their potential and wants them there because he knows things might go real bad. I also have sneaking suspicion the original intent was him probably not having realized Ruby has silver eyes till he met her because Qrow, etc very likely hid that fact because of Summer, but once she was there, she was there. Beyond Ruby (where the show seems to imply Ozpin took specific interest in her due to her eyes and the songs pretty much imply that the eyes are intrinsically linked to whatever Ozpin's real deal is) while the rest of people that are at Beacon might have special circumstances, ultimately which paths they take is up to them. Its all about free will and the potential humanity has. V1 through V3 places a great deal of importance on personal choices - choosing what kind of person one can be, choosing which paths they want to walk, making mistakes and learning from them, etc. Multiple characters struggle with who they want to be and what paths they want to walk (ex: Jaune's arc is literally dealing with either giving in to toxicity or opposing it, Weiss is torn between her "legacy" and her kinder self, the BIG Decision Pyrrha has to make in V3, etc). V3 ends on all characters about to make important decisions of what they want to do next and logically seeing consequences of those decisions would have to follow.

Instead from V4 onwards it slowly morphs into a predestination kind of deal. Team RWBY are the chosen ones in a grand battle between Good and Evil - they are destined to appear in specific big events and play a deciding role there. Blake is destined to Solve The Racism because she's literally equivalent of a Faunus Princess, Weiss is destined to bring kindness to the Schnees and Atlas overall because she is literally a grand daughter of SANTA CLAUS, Silver Eyes is not merely a genetic trait, but something tied to literal Gods and so on. It starts subtextual and by V9 its just plain text that morphs into literal giant glowing sign what's with them literally being directed onto a mission by a Divine Higher Will.

[kitkatopinions]

Forgot to talk about something in my little new rw/by ep post. Spoliers for V9.

Ruby giving away her emblem. The thing is that while the general idea of it as Ruby losing more of what is iconic to her (Cresent Rose, emblem - I do wonder if she'll temporarily lose the cape) is a good one, it comes with two major problems that keep it from being as emotionally meaningful as it could be.

1. Emblems are a badly included piece of the world of RW/BY the explanations with them and in-universe references to them are nearly non-existent, leading it to feel like little more than an only sometimes useful design tool instead of part of the world-building and therefore also character building. This is very similar to weapons being named, it seems like an ill thought out 'rule' that was done for coolness sake alone that the writers never really bothered with making sense of or even really putting it in their work. Because no one in RW/BY has ever bothered to talk about where or how they got their emblems, what it means to them, or how much it relates to their identity, it leaves the inclusion here feeling like it's just symbolism for our sake and shouldn't matter to Ruby at all which makes her 'sacrifice' feel more like a random grab for any way to get what she needed. Like she could've just as easily taken off her choker and given them that, or sacrificed a glove.

2. The connection it has to Summer Rose. I believe Ruby's emblem is the same as the emblem we see on Summer's grave, which means we can pretty much assume that Ruby sees her emblem as connected to her mother. But Ruby's obsession with Summer lately still feels forced to me and on top of that, since Ruby has never actually discussed modeling herself after Summer or talked about the emblem being her mother's first, Summer having the emblem has seemed like little more than a blink-and-you'll-miss it passing thing and emblems have been handed down before (Weiss, Jaune,) so to me this also just felt like another casual design choice that doesn't matter. On top of that 'it's a symbol of a mother's promise-" Well whatever Summer said about it or how Ruby feels about it, I sure wish I woulda known before. This show has such a problem with actually properly setting things up and it leaves so many small moments like this feeling lackluster. Now that I'm meant to see this emblem as super meaningful to Ruby because of how connected it is to her mother, I'm left once again feeling like the Eleventh Doctor is wearing Amy's glasses. It's just an object I know the writers want me to care about, but due to the lack of work that was put into it... I feel nothing but annoyed, wishing they'd have either included it earlier or just not at all.

I feel like Yang could've just handed the teapot lady her jacket and been like "Uhhh it's a symbol of me staying warm in the snow" and I would’ve cared just as much.

[onewomancitadel]

Do you think they've been intentionally setting up Jaune/Weiss as a red herring? On the path to Knightfall, that is. I do believe they've made some intentional choices with Jaune and Weiss that would lean towards some type of romance being a possibility but I'm unsure of the ultimate intent.

Nothing incredibly deep. Just instances that seem to imply that the animators are hinting at "something":

The scene shifting from Jaune and co mourning Pyrrha to Weiss during Ruby's V4 speech when Ruby is discussing moving on from loss and discovering a beautiful future.

The teasing in V5 from Nora and Jaune unlocking his semblance to save Weiss.

Jaune's eye contact with Weiss when their teams reunited I'm V6, which was tracked by Blake for some reason.

The movie thing in V7.

Sentimental glances towards the other in Volume 8, during Penny's rampage. Pairing them together during the conclusion of the V8 fight.

Weiss reacted differently than the others when Jaune first showed up in V9 and the following gag was accompanied by Blake and Yang exchanging knowing glances. V9 made an effort to pair them together in many shots and Jaune's big breakthrough moments were shared with Weiss. "I can actually save these people", hearing Weiss snaps him out of his rampage on Ruby, his break down over the bridge incident is directed at her, the eye contact they held upon immediately breaking apart from the hug was rather intimate and the way they held on after looked more romantic than the canon established couple next to them. When Jaune was shocked by the sound of his voice, Weiss giggling caught his attention and made him smile.

It's all basic, surface level evidence that would seem to hint at a future relationship. But I can easily admit that Knightfall would make more sense when you lay everything out as you've done. It seems right and it would certainly be interesting. Yet it still seems that there's been more evidence for Jaune and Weiss presented in the show.

Could it be a misdirect? Weiss would make a lot of sense as a major obstacle in any romance between Jaune and Cinder.

Yet it still seems that there's been more evidence for Jaune and Weiss presented in the show.

Wrong.

A majority of the examples you've given are not ship foreshadowing, and they're extremely fragmented compared to the other canon developing ships (which I have discussed at length on my blog). How is going to the movies with Oscar ship foreshadowing? Please stop fucking with me.

Jaune's eye contact with Weiss when their teams reunited I'm V6, which was tracked by Blake for some reason.

I am begging you to stop fucking with me. You're listing eye contact as ship foreshadowing. If someone were arguing for Blake/Yang this way, would you take them seriously?

I have written extensive posts about Jaune/Weiss on my blog discussing this matter, and previously Tower Anon messaged me about the similarities between Blake/Sun and Jaune/Weiss, which, yes, could suggest a red herring, if you want to read further on that.

The thing I can't parse is why you'd send such a long ask like this if you want my response, but you couldn't even search on my blog to see if I'd already (at length) discussed this topic (across my V9 tag, ship cope, my Jaune tag considering the relation of Jaune's predicament in V9 and the Weiss thing, and my Knightfall tag itself and all the rest). So I can only conclude my response very likely doesn't matter - I don't mean this passive aggressively, I mean this in a self-deprecating sense - and in which case I'll say that I wish you all the best with your meta writing. Maybe you should make a post like this on your own blog.

I don't really know what else to say in all honesty. I think it could be argued that Jaune/Cinder is a type of parallel to Blake/Adam - there are people currently nominally expecting (based on Cinder going after Jaune and Weiss in V8) that Cinder will play the Adam role to Jaune/Weiss. But there is no previous Jaune/Cinder relationship, and Cinder is her own foil to Adam. So you can draw your own conclusions.