#byler is endgame but not because of the sign

[ohrightgaypeople]

didn't want to be the one who says it, and probably I'm not the first one, but I have this

sinking feeling

that Will could be the one to die

because if anyone from the main cast has to, what a more haunting parallel than the last episode bearing a name like the first one ever?

[emblazons]

Thinking about these entirely unedited shots from “The Piggyback” that I will never be over even in the (unlikely) event that Byler isn’t endgame because they’re even more “on the nose” than Will putting a heart and crown on Mike’s shield in his painting:

[teambyler]

Mike was saying "I love you" to Will

Most people see Mike's monologue and think of it as "proof" that he and El are an endgame couple, but it's actually one of the strongest hints of a Byler conclusion.

Because Mike was saying "I love you" to Will.

Sounds crazy? Of course! He was speaking directly to El, after all. What the hell am I talking about?

Some have focused on contradictions and other issues with what Mike says, including listing El's superpowers instead of the full person she wants to be loved for being. Plus he had to do it (and was pushed by Will), or else El and their friends in Hawkins might have died. It does seem like El sensed something off in what he said, which would explain why she hardly talked to him afterward. But I actually disagree about Mike's "I love you" being a total lie. In the official script it's written that it had a positive effect on El (although the way it was ultimately shot and edited made it more ambiguous). (I got this screencap from a TikTok video):

And so, in the van, Will DID make Mike love El. Mike MIGHT have wondered whether Will was talking about himself too, but one thing he was convinced of was that that El loved him because "he's the heart." Feeling like she loved him for who he was made him love her. I think it's more accurate to say that, while Mike's monologue may have had issues, he DID feel something genuine... BUT the logic of events leads more toward a BYLER conclusion than away from one.

The problem for Mike and El is that Mike was saying "I love you" to the idea of El that WILL put in his head:

Will said that El felt like a mistake, and that Mike made her feel like she was better for being different. She was terrified of losing him and so that's why she pushed him away.

So Mike came out of that conversation with new feelings for El: he thought that SHE needed HIM to love her, not because of "dumb luck," but because of his unique qualities. Who HE is helps her be a superhero.

But El's journey in Season 4 was to LEAVE Mike to "be a superhero." When she left a note for Mike, she tellingly signed it "From El." When she realized he couldn't say he loved her, she chose to let go of their romantic relationship. Her journey in Season 4 was about finding who she was independently from others in her life (most importantly her "papa" Dr. Brenner). El went through her own journey that REQUIRED separating from Mike.

By the time they reunite, she has grown. Instead of Mike coming up with the plan (like so many times before), EL came up with the piggyback plan. While she was piggybacking, Mike said "I love you" -- but having her self-image rely on how Mike sees her was something she was moving away from.

She had felt like a monster. What liberated her from feeling that was NOT Mike and not an elusive "normal life" (with a relationship). She had to realize this on her own:

There were clues in Mike's monologue for her to pick up on that he wasn't fully telling the truth, first and foremost him saying that he "knew, in that moment, that I loved you." (He couldn't have, when he was openly scheming in s1 to get her sent away, possibly to a mental hospital, loud enough for her to hear.)

But Mike DID mean it when he said "I love you." Mike saw someone who desperately needed him, someone whom MIKE was a hero to and not the other away around.

That person he was thinking of, of course, was WILL.

It wasn't like it was news to Mike that El needed his love: El confronted him earlier in the season for not saying he loved her. We all saw that El's heartbreak didn't convince Mike that he loved El.

Ironically, it was WILL'S heartbreak, HIS emotions, and HIS words that did. And Mike felt something real this time, because it came from WILL.

Will's statement in the van made Mike feel something romantic.

Will's words affected Mike deeply. Deep down, Mike wants to be someone's hero. He's the leader; he's "the heart." When dealing with a superhero like El, he can admire and love her, sure... but does it make MIKE feel loved for who HE is? Does a romantic relationship with El COMPLETE him? Mike doesn't want to be a discount Lois Lane. He wants be loved because who HE is makes him THEIR hero.

Mike has always been bullied, misunderstood, and angry. He rambled just before Will's speech about being "some random nerd" and feeling like he didn't deserve El. He felt inadequate, and this affected him ("leader Mike" recedes when he's in a relationship with El). Will's point "You make them feel better because they're different" doesn't just describe El + Will; this is what Mike is looking for, too.

Being "some random nerd" is part of why Will loves him so much. Will's painting was the perfect gift; Will knows and understands his best friend better than anyone. The D&D theme was a tribute to Mike the nerd -- with all his flaws -- who also is a hero and a leader. WILL's love makes Mike feel like he's better for who he is.

(Here's an angelwithnightmares video that shows this about Mike exactly)

Mike's journey in s4 was him rediscovering that he is a hero. And this required separating from El and hearing this from Will. Will said that he's the leader of the group: "You keep the party together." And earlier in the season he reminded Mike "you guys saved me" (with a proud "I did, didn't I" reaction from Mike that was super cute lol).

Will's love gave Mike the strength to be a hero again. Mike pretty much used Will's words in his monologue to El. Two scenes at the end of Season 4 foreshadowed "leader Mike" coming back; his speech to El, and his "We will" shoulder grab with Will. Whatever issues there were in his monologue, this was undeniably THE callback to "leader Mike" of s1 and s2. He didn't help El beat Vecna, but he helped them survive. Mike spoke of his genuine platonic love for El, while thinking it was romantic love. But it was WILL's romantic love that helped him be this hero, and to say "I love you" to the person he thought made him feel that way, who as it actually turns out was WILL.

So we'll have a final season where there is this hugest of loose ends when it comes to Byler: Mike will somehow realize that Will in the van was describing himself and not El. Mike will realize that the first time he felt romantic love, was because of Will, and that Will more than anyone helps him be the hero he wants to be. (It's the perfect formula, writing-wise, to make a person confused about his romantic feelings!)

AND Mike will learn that Will sacrificed his own happiness for him and El. How does that NOT lead to Mike loving Will even more than he already does?

Finn Wolfhard himself said about the van scene:

How is he this clueless right now? What with the Will scene... I remember asking the Duffers, "Why would he not know all this?" And they were like, "Don't worry, kid, it'll pay off in the end."

I think it will.

P.S. Follow me and read my blog! I have so much to say!

[strawberrybyers]

they can’t sell merch that connects anything to mikeven like the painting connects to byler because what would they sell for mikeven?? a puzzle or tote bag that says “from: mike” or el’s letters lying to mike about how she’s doing ?? it’s not a good sign when your “endgame” couple literally has nothing tying them together to make merch out of

[queerxqueen]

It is unreal knowing that Byler has seemingly surpassed Mileven in popularity. I know that Mileven might be more popular with some of the general audience, but I saw that Mileven was trending before and I swear one of the top tweets about them only had 58 likes. It's just unreal to me because I remember when the Byler tag was a ghost town a few years back. There are so many new shippers too since season 4 came out, and I think that really means something about the direction it's going. Many people see it now, even some people in the GA.

It's seriously been so cool to see the tag and fandom grow and see perspectives shift as more and more people realize that Byler is a real and distinct possibility that the show wants you to consider. I do think we're at the point where most Critical fans who watch the show as more than just passive entertainment see the real possibilities here, even if they don't 100% trust in it being endgame like I do. Even the broader GA and casual fans are at least picking up on the vibe that Mileven is not quite right and that something's going on with Mike and Will.

My parents tend to be my personal benchmark for GA perspectives, and while their heteronormative goggles prevent them from seeing Byler as a real option, I can clearly see in them the way that the writers have laid out delicate groundwork. My mom adores Will, and while she didn't recognize the blatant flirting, she cheered when Will and Mike made up in 4x04. She sees that they're better together. While she didn't see the painting lie as the blatant Chekov's gun for season 5 that I see it as, she was emotional about Will's monologue and hopes for his happiness next season. While she didn't see that Mileven is broken beyond repair, she was neutral at best when it came to Mike's monologue to El. She just didn't care or feel emotionally invested, especially compared to her emotional reaction whenever Mike and Will fought or made up.

Even if GA viewers don't quite see how it all fits together, they feel those emotional beats. They're getting underlying vibes of Mike and Will are great together, and Mike and El are not as strong as they used to be that will make everything come together in season 5. Even if they don't expect it now, they will see how things were laid out in hindsight.

And of course it helps when there's external things like the "Byler won't write itself' sign or ST day's snubbing of Mileven and nods to Byler.

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

A maladaptive daydreaming endgame would be the most boring, dry, anticlimactic, and nonsensical endgame possible. There’s no arc. There’s no stakes. There’s nothing to look forward to. There’s no pizzaz. There’s no mystery. They have no goals. They aren’t building towards anything. Plus, there’s a giant, unanswered, blue and yellow coded, bowlcut-shaped elephant standing in the middle of their storyline.

Like, push aside the minutiae of the shipping war for a second. Push aside the debate over Mike’s sexuality. Macy's Day Parade staying together and finally being a happy couple in Season 5 is a genuinely absurd concept because they have no momentum. And that in and of itself is so incriminating. Yes, on a surface level (boy protagonist makes grand confession love monologue to girl protagonist, wooo, romance go brr) level, I suppose one could think they do. But they do not. Where are they going, narratively? What do Mike and El like doing together for fun? Brodie made a whole monologue and that answer is still a giant question mark. What are their shared hopes for the future?

They have none. Even without being in the same state, it’s clear why Duzie is into each other. Lumax, Jancy, Jopper, and Rockie all are building towards something. Even a hypothetical STANCY revival has more of a raison d’être. Love them or hate them, they do fall into tropes of rekindling old sparks, and Steve’s pitch was rooted in how much he’s changed and what his hopes are for his future- which he sees Nancy in (even if Nancy’s future goals don’t actually align). And for El, it’s clear that saving Max is her priority. So even Elmax has more momentum than Mlvn.

For Migration Pattern, it’s like Mike finally did the thing, finally said ILY, finally confessed his apparently undying love for his superpowered girlfriend (in the penultimate season, I might add, which is never a good sign), only for there to be crickets. It’s like okay… and now what?

No one knows. It doesn’t feel right. Mike finally did everything El asked of him, finally (allegedly) explained why he couldn’t say it before, and it’s narratively unsatisfying in every possible way. Not only this, but this is not your imagination playing tricks on you. These aren’t Byler shipping goggles. The show goes out of its way to emphasize that Mike and El aren’t on speaking terms, which is an odd choice for a couple entering their endgame era. And everyone has lost. Nothing is in a good place. It’s all a mess. Max is in a coma. It’s a nightmare. Yeah, it’s not looking good for Minotaur Endgame.

“But you don’t get it, Bitcoin! They're saving her response to Mike’s monologue for Season 5. They do have something to look forward to. You just don’t like it.” Okay… and what do they expect her response to be? “Oh Mike, my darling loverboy, I love you so. l'm glad you see me as a superhero. And I’m so glad you fell in love with me in the woods. I love you too. Let’s make out and eat eggo waffles forever.” And then what?

They also expect Mike to just start saying I Love You a lot more often? They expect them to finally be on the same page and have meaningful heart-to-hearts? They expect him to suddenly show interest in what she likes instead of gritting his teeth and acting awkward?

They expect Mlvn to glide off into the sunset as if any of their structural problems have been resolved? Despite the fact that Will’s thinly veiled love confession/ the painting lie was the whole catalyst for the monologue in the first place? That just doesn’t make sense? Like, objectively.

But know who does have momentum? Miwi. Byler arguably has the strongest momentum going into Season 5 of any couple or would-be couple. They have romantic momentum, friendship momentum, individual character arc momentum, and narrative momentum. The cinematography makes that crystal-clear.

[mikesbasementbeets]

i’ve been thinking a lot about elmax recently and how it seems like the show is genuinely setting them up romantically, while also consistently establishing max and lucas as a romantic pair

keep in mind, this is the show that has been setting up byler since season 1. they seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to queer coding, so i refuse (for the purposes of this analysis at least) to believe they’re unaware of what they’ve been doing so heavily and blatantly with elmax, and also with max in particular (el too, but i’m focusing on max).

i've talked about why i think mike wheeler is gay. this is why i think max mayfield is bi. and elumax should be endgame.

queer coding of max mayfield

right off the bat: her name. max. just like el was at first, due to her shaved head, max is mistaken for a boy by those who don't know her. first the party, who see the name madmax at the arcade, and later dr. owens in season 4 (he might even assume that she's el's boyfriend). when she's first introduced by mr. clarke using her full name, maxine, she quickly corrects him. it's max.

this leads into the larger point of queer coding around max. her androgynous fashion sense, the way she carries herself, distancing herself from performative femininity, ie, playing video games ("girls don't play video games,"), skateboarding, making friends with an all male friend group, her general "tomboyish" presentation and attitude - all of it reads as heavily queer coded to me. i'm not saying that any of these things is necessarily queer, or mean that a person in real life is queer, but the way it all comes together in max feels like a purposeful character choice.

i'm not an expert in queer coding so there's probably a lot i'm missing, but one of the biggest signs for me is max's constant association with rainbows. the other characters have their color palettes, and max has rainbows. literally. as many times as mike and will have been coded with rainbow imagery, max is drowning in it.

and then there's the most important piece of queer coding... her relationship with el. i'll come back around to that though, because i want to talk about boys first. because clearly, max does like boys.

this shot is largely played for comedic relief, but it actually does something important for the narrative i think. it establishes again, with a max that has (once again) broken up with lucas for reasons she doesn't seem to have really explained, that max is attracted to men. my optimistic reading of it is honestly, "hey, we know what we've been doing here with max, so just in case you were thinking she's a lesbian... she's not." ...or if you want a different fun read of it... max realized she likes girls recently (i'll get to that) and is just making sure she still likes boys. ladies dig it? do they steve? oh, wait, yeah.

she's also talked about other boys with el in the past, showing pretty unambiguous interest in them

(these scenes are still so gay though seriously... "you must be an angel".... contrasting milven's scene where el didn't like mike's singing... rainbowsrainbowsrainbows... talking about kissing and then emulating a spin the bottle game, later introducing el to wonder woman while they're in bed together, waking up together always rainbows come ON)

and of course, the other most important part of this, her relationship with lucas, which is shown continuously to be one of real, romantic attraction. in season 2, this was mostly established through contrast with her relationship with dustin, who also had a crush on her. max and lucas start off by becoming close as friends, and then begin to develop a romantic connection. max and dustin, meanwhile, are established several times as not clicking in the same way that max and lucas do. they have heart-to-hearts that feel intimate and genuine, and, as steve and dustin discuss, are layered with the kind of "electricity" that denotes mutual attraction.

at the same time though, while we understand that it's genuine on both sides, we're shown that max and lucas' relationship is far from perfect.

for a couple that reads as endgame and has parallels with several of the other endgame couples, they also parallel a lot of the obviously not endgame couples. i'm gonna come back around to that too. first, the other thing.

romantic coding of elmax

elmax. honestly, i can't even get into everything i want to, because it's literally everything about them.

first of all, the start of their friendship is byler romantic coded

"i just walked up to you and i asked... it was the best thing i've ever done."

this sequence in particular though. this is. so bi coded i'm going insane. (also rainbows rainbows rainbows)

not hopper, not mike. you. (there's more to life than stupid boys. *HOLDS HER HAND*)

the next sequence is also pretty gay imo but is also kinda just gals being pals, so i'm gonna focus on the song, Material Girl by Madonna. this is definitely meant to be about eleven here, finding herself, away from mike (and it's also just a great shopping montage song), but the shot layout also subtly indicates that it applies to max and lucas too.

"some boys hug me, some boys kiss me, i think they're okay." and what about girls, max? what do you think of them? el? opinions?

(the clothes are emulating a literal rainbow flag behind her ok red yellow blue green purple and max is the orange she's part of the flag like shut UP i can't do this anymore)

and. okay. look, i'm not going to fully explain this one but i need to point it out.

getting back at the straight girl bullies (shown flirting with a boy) in front of a burger king. max taking off her sunglasses (we've talked about the symbolism of mike's shades in season 4) as they run away holding hands. taco bell coming soon. "there's more to life than stupid boys." like. am i reading way too much into this? (yes)

even back to their first meeting though, i'm seeing the seeds being planted. go ahead and read this as purely platonic admiration if you want, i don't care, but there's no way in my mind, especially after seeing seasons 3 and 4. like imagine you're a young bi teenage girl who's been hearing stories about this awesome girl with superpowers who saved everyone's life and then mysteriously disappeared, and then she suddenly mysteriously reappears, saves your life too, and walks in looking like this

personally, my tiny gay heart would stop.

yeah

but let's actually move on to season 4 for a minute.

season 4 was setting up canon bisexual max

i'm going to argue something here that i don't have a ton of actual evidence for: i think one of the reasons max broke up with lucas after season 3 is that she realized her feelings for el. max's arc in season 4 is all about her dealing with the trauma of last season, and guilt for her role in what happened. the guilt is extremely important to this. it's a big part in why vecna chooses his victims: not just kids with trauma, but kids who feel shame surrounding their trauma. most of that for max obviously has to do with billy's death. but i think there's something else that max is dealing with too.

as soon as i started season 4 i was struck with strong “queer max” vibes. first of all, her more feminine and rainbow splashed outfits from season 3 have been replaced again with the more tomboyish, androgynous style of season 2. and then there's the first sequence we get to running up that hill (which starts, funnily enough, on a scene of el walking down the hall at school, upset). the first time i watched this i was literally shocked because it read so explicitly queer to me.

first, max looks at group of girls (thinking about el, most likely)

her gaze trails after them, and then, next shot, max looks at a couple kissing

and then max looks at lucas

only after watching it again did i realize it didn't necessarily have to be queer coding (if you take it as max missing her friend and then, separately, her ex-boyfriend) but holy shit, if that's what they meant, they did NOT have to put the couple making out in between those two shots, with further shots of max looking away almost guiltily. we all know that lucas was max's boyfriend. they didn't have to precede that shot of him with the shot of the couple. that's already their established dynamic (and we haven't even learned at this point that they've broken up).

what's not been established yet though, is the idea of max and el as a couple. and i think..... that's possibly what's being hinted at here through max's perspective. the sequence of shots is so telling: 1. girl friends, 2. couple kissing, 3. ex-boyfriend. guilt. what i'm getting from this sequence of shots is that max's friendship with el is something she's thought about in a romantic light. max is making this association. and feeling guilty about it when she looks at lucas. whom, despite their closeness still at the very end of season 3, months after starcourt, she has since broken up with. the reason the show establishes for this is that max has been pulling away from everyone since billy's death, dealing with the fallout in her family, her mother's emotional absence and alcoholism, etc, and her own grief, guilt, and trauma around it. that makes perfect sense, and i'm not saying it's not true. but i think el moving away was also a factor.

it wasn't until season 4 that max was shown to have really pulled away, after el moved to california. maybe it's a reach, maybe it's nothing, but max as a character is so similar to mike, who was shown to have exactly this response to the byers' moving away: isolating himself and pushing away his friends, suffering his depression alone, and talking to no one about it. meeting el in season 3 showed us a new, bubbly happy side to max (that, yes, probably also came from the rest of her friendships and lucas, but el's is the one we were shown). max and el spend almost the entire season together, and max is undoubtedly going to be affected by her best friend moving away. especially if, like mike, it feels like she's losing more than a friend.

it's not just those shots though. when lucas tries to talk to her later, telling her he knows something's wrong... as soon as she turns around, there's a rainbow.

"right, yeah, there must be something wrong with me because i broke up with you."

then in dear billy, lucas confronts her again. and the language reminds me of karen's speech to mike in season 1. and jonathan's to will in season 4. "you know you can talk to me, right? i'm here for you."

guilt and shame are a big part of max's plot this season. the two characters most associated with that for max are billy and vecna - max feeling guilt over billy, and vecna using that guilt against her.

and those scenes also feel intentionally queer coded to me.

and then there's the dear billy flashback sequence.

while she's trying to escape vecna using her happiest memories, max is also comparing her relationships with lucas and el. they are both friendships. and they are both romantic. she thinks of them in alternating flashbacks. lucas, then el, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, and then this particular sequence: lucas, el, mike.

this may a reach, but... if she has feelings for el, she's probably feeling guilty around mike, too. this is the only shot of mike in the sequence. after this, in quick succession, it's lucas, then lucas, then lucas, and then el.

then lucas, then lumix snowball kiss, then max's face, then high fiving el, then her eyes open, and she breaks free

there are more shots of lucas than of el, but that's just the thing: max keeps trying to just think of lucas (because, as shown by the shot of mike, the way she's thinking about el makes her feel guilty, which is the opposite of what she wants), but el keeps coming back in. she thinks of her first kiss with lucas, and then thinks of high fiving el after they "dumped their asses." and that's the shot that breaks her out.

(and the song itself? 1. birthdaygate coded, 2. ROMANTIC. baby, darling, angel. you must be an angel. the voice of an angel saving victor creel from henry, el saving max. i'm reaching again. but. seriously.)

and then the flashbacks in episode 9 (and i'm not even touching el's flashback montage here). it's so difficult to be brief about this because they're literally doing SO MUCH here. i'm might have to make a separate post with every shot in this sequence because it's so good. (edit: here)

literally just. go back and watch the entire thing if you need to, but i need to go through this. elmax is unbelievably romantic coded this episode. there is no getting around it.

max chose the snow ball as her happy memory to hide from vecna in, but it didn't work. when vecna finds her, he says, "you can't hide from me, max." max turns around and, with a determined look, closes her eyes. closing her eyes almost seems like she's trying to keep hiding, but facing the door where venca is feels more like defiance. she's not going to try to hide anymore...

in the first shot, she spins the bottle in her mind, and her memories flicker from her first time meeting lucas, to the movies with lucas, to the start of her friendship with el, back to the spinning bottle, and then. the last two shots repeat. movie date with lucas, el approaching her in the street. but the lucas shot flickers shorter, and the el shot lingers, and then it's max's mom tying her hair too tight for the snow ball.

like maybe... this wasn't her at her happiest. forced conformity is killing the kids, right?

and the bottle flickers in again and it's el. it's max dancing in el's room, you must be an angel...

and then we come back to max's face and there are rainbows reflecting in the light

"is mike a good kisser?" el laughing, more rainbows

after that, she gets distracted by vecna and broken out of her memories, and when el shows up, max asks,

"are you real? did i make you?" she was thinking so strongly of her memories with el, she thought that it had worked.... and everything is romantic coded, there's nothing even to argue for here, it's just. there. seriously, like. just watch the episode. it's elmax.

after this the focus goes back to el mostly and it's still extremely romantic but i can't get into it anymore, i need to focus on max.

the way it all ends brings me back to the elumax question again. because right here, i'm clearly seeing elmax/byler vs. lumix/milven. paralleling mike's love monologue failing to help el, lucas' protection, both physically and in her mind, was not enough to save max.

that was el. that was el that saved her. (of course, she saves your life because of "friendship")

el's love for max is what saved her. not mike. not lucas. elmax.

going back to the latter half of season 3... el and max's relationship progressed very quickly through shared trauma, and max is the one there for el all season... and when billy dies, el is the one who holds her.

season 3 also made it clear that max's relationship with lucas wasn't without flaws.

all of the romantically inept things that mike was doing with el? lucas was doing them first, max was breaking up with him, and lucas was later advising mike on how to fix it. and especially by the end of the season, max seems much more like she's in el's corner than lucas'.

why i think it's possible max and lucas might end up as friends

after she's broken up with him in season 4, lucas spends most of the time just trying to be her friend again. he doesn't even seem bothered by their breakup (although we don't know how long ago it was), he seems to really just want her in his life again, to talk to him.

and, yes, they spend season 4 rebuilding the relationship in a way i think would be beautiful to see work out romantically. but i don't think it's inevitable. (remember that they also rebuilt stency this season.... as much as they might like each other, we've been shown in past seasons that their romantic relationship was flawed.)

i wish i could get into all the parallels, because they're the biggest part of what confuses me on the show's endgame goals but i really can't because it would take up an entire post. the duffers love parallels, obviously, it's one of their main narrative techniques at this point. and i think they usually work really well, because they're not trying to show that each of these characters or couples is exactly the same. they use parallel situations to exemplify the small details that make each character and relationship unique.

for example, milven and stency often parallel each other, but they're not quite the same. i don't think mike ever had genuine romantic feelings for el. he thought he liked her, but ultimately he's gay. nancy, on the other hand, did genuinely have a crush on steve (hc her as a lesbian if you want, i fully support that, but i think the show thinks she likes boys). that is the show's example of a teenage crush that sparks and then fizzles, not turning into deeper love.

whereas lumix, which also sometimes parallels these two ships (for example, their habit of sitting across from each other rather than beside. not always though... they're inconsistent), i believe is an example of a love that is real and genuine... but might not be meant to last forever. because in addition to those other two, they also parallel byler, jopper, and jancy, which i believe are endgame ships.

to be honest... all of this makes me believe even more firmly in gay mike too. because unlike mike’s complete lack of romantic feeling for el, or nancy's naive crush on steve, this is a narrative that sets up genuine, but possibly not everlasting love. a bi character discovering her sexuality by falling for her best girl friend while she’s dating a guy she also really likes. i think lucas is max’s first love, but not her only.

however

all this said, i also think it's very likely that lucas and max will end up together, and el might end the show on her own. lucas and max are NOT milven or stency, and whatever flaws they have don't necessarily spell out a doomed relationship. there's a lot of good there too, i just didn't get into it here.

and el's whole character arc has been about family, friends, and finding herself outside of other peoples' influence. i think this could still work if she were with max, since max has always been the most supportive of el's independence and self-fulfillment, but i can really see the show ending with el on her own, and it being a natural and positive conclusion to her journey

either way though, i think with everything they've been doing, they might actually confirm in canon that max and el have romantic feelings for each other (...or indicate it so obviously that they think it’s undeniable and then later confirm in interviews when most viewers don’t get it because they’re too subtle for their own good)

anyway, here's how elumax can still happen

look, i don't really trust the show to be able to pull this off, mostly because it just. isn't something that's done. not in popular media like this. but honestly, it's hard for me to grasp all of this because it feels like the show is telling me that max belongs with both el and lucas. i think most people assume she will end up with lucas after the way their relationship was rebuilt in season 4, and i think that absolutely makes sense. but i truly think elmax has been built up just as much, just a lot more subtextually. it's just that no one expects it to actually happen. 1, because lumix not ending up together would feel pretty disappointing after all this build up, and we don't want to see lucas, who truly loves max, end up alone. especially when max loves him too. and 2, because of heteronormativity - most people assume elmax are only being set us as friends, regardless of whether they're picking up on the romantic coding. and the "norm" is one romantic partner per person. but max needs el just as much as she needs lucas, and the ending season 4 proved that. lucas holding max in his arms, thinking he's alone with her, but then we see that el is actually there too. right alongside lucas. el saved max's life after she died in lucas's arms.

i could just give up and assume that elmax is platonic and they're giving max both a romantic and a platonic love story, but as i've already talked about, max is queer, and her dynamic with el is romantic. (theres so much evidence of this from el's side too that i just didn't get into)

going into season 5, max is in a coma. we already know that lucas is spending his time at her bedside. and i think it's fair to assume, based on el's priorities after the pizza dough freezer, ignoring mike completely to stay with max and lucas, and to revive max, she's going to be very focused on max too.

this is already way too long but i'm almost done, i want to briefly talk about lucas and el's dynamic from season 1. of all the party members, lucas was the most skeptical and deeply wary of eleven. he didn't trust her, and she ended up inadvertently hurting him when he fought with mike. but over the course of the season, they both learned to trust each other, having moments together than felt just as important as el's friendship with mike.

if season 5 is a return to season 1 dynamics, especially seeing the way season 4 left these two characters (sharing the same priority - max), i think lucas and el will spend a decent amount of time in season 5 together, or at least share a plotline (around max?). now that they're finally being given the chance to actually spend time together, i can see them growing much closer next season, maybe even leading to a mutual understanding and acceptance of both of their feelings towards max (maybe even falling in love?). and if max wakes from her coma to discover that the guilt and shame she's been suffering around her feelings for these two people is actually unnecessary, and that they can all be happy with each other, in whatever way they decide, even if other people might not understand?

*slides the duffers $5*

that would be an absolutely iconic ending.

[chirpsythismorning]

Mike called out for El on the walkie every day for 353 days and yet he made no effort to actually search for her, not like he did with Will. There were a couple notable signs El could be alive, and yet Mike didn't make much effort to really test those theories. Whereas with Will it seemed like a lost cause pretty much the entire time, (they even found his body) but when there was a sign of hope, he took it and ran with it and didn't give up until they found him.

This is why I'm genuinely scared for it to finally be revealed in s5 how exactly Mike coped with only talking to Will a couple of times since the Byers moved to Cali...

Because if byler is endgame, they're going to need to uncover a lot of those hidden details. How do they convince the audience Mike likes Will romantically, but not El, if he kept touch with her like that in s2, but didn't do that for Will in s4? If anything they're going to have to go above and beyond to prove that it's obvious he likes Will more romantically, and a letter a day is fitting the bill tbh....

If they want people to root for them in the end, they're gonna need to give everyone a reason to, in terms of Mike's feelings for Will. Of course we want them to be together because Will's feelings are very obvious, but that's also why we're due for some balance in their dynamic , which means including Mike's side of things truly, not just what he's willing to tell us while also leaving out the full truth.

[etherealwanderings]

Byler is so obvious to me like how the hell can people doubt that it will be endgame?? but for the love of God, I don't like seing people saying that they have faith in byler just because of what some actors have said or that they have doubts just because of something some actors said . An actor will never spoil you the show and when they do tell you that X is happening, it's generally a very bad sign (Hello David who said that Hopper was alive and Hello Joseph who said Eddie won't die). Their goal is above all to hype the show to push you to watch it and to do so they won't be afraid of using their acting skills to trick you so take what they said as : "this is the opinion of this actor. I have mine and I will keep it"

[ven0moir]

As someone who's been obsessively analyzing ST for about a year now, it makes me so sad that the only thing keeping me at 99% certainty of Byler being endgame is the fear that we might get queerbaited.

It pains me that if Will was a girl, I would have 0 doubt left. Especially because with all of the evidence there is to back up the writers INTENTIONS (yes, they 100% intended to queercode both Mike AND Will at this point), if Byler isn't endgame then that means the Duffers INTENTIONALLY queerbaited us. In the year 2025.

And then I circle back on this thought and think ... why would they queerbait? Why would they specifically use Byler to do so? If they wanted to draw in an LGBT audience it would've been as easy as given Will a different love interest in Lenora and confirm him queer in that way. Why would they so meticulously and elaborately write a queer slowburn friends to lovers only to queerbait in the end?

I know some Milkvans are COUNTING on this, they are HOPING this is all queerbait because THEY SEE THE SIGNS as well, they're just refusing to accept it. Of course I fear they're right deep down, but do I actually think, if I go about this logically, that the Duffers would do something so ... anticlimactic? When they've described S5 as 'S1 and S4 on steroids'?

When it comes to the romances, Byler IS the big shock. The biggest surprise. Because whether Nancy chooses Steve or Jonathan or remains single, we know Nancy's options, we're just waiting to see who or what she chooses.

But most of the GA does not even see Byler as a real possibility. Hell, some of them haven't even picked up on Will liking Mike (yes, even after the painting, I've seen some people still debate this and some straight up thinking Will likes El).

And yet when you rewatch the show after considering Byler as a possibility, it becomes SO OBVIOUS. It is the perfect plot twist when it comes to Mike and Will. And I wouldn't be on board with Byler if Milkvan was written in a way that truly showed they loved each other, were compatible and thought of each other as an equal. As someone going into S4 as part of the GA, I was expecting that S4 would finally, FINALLY make me ship Milkvan because I am sorry but I picked up on that Born Sexy Yesterday bs since S1 and I did NOT like them romantically, not at that point. I wished they had been a slowburn friends to lovers that got together in like S3 or something, but even if they felt forced and rushed as fuck I was still willing to allow myself to be swayed into liking them later on. And that never happened, instead S4 presented Will as a potential love interest for Mike and I was SEATED. I was SO DONE with milkvan's drama.

When it comes to romance, it would be the dumbest writing decision I've ever seen in my life not to get Mike and Will together. And I know the Duffers might not be perfect but they cannot be THIS dumb when they grew up loving Dawson's Creek. There is no way that show did more for its gay character in 1998 than the Duffers potentially could in 2025 let's be for real.

[youjibyers]

I don’t understand why so many bylers are obsessed with convincing the st subreddit that byler is real and a valid theory…like why are you guys tearing your hair out trying to get validation from a bunch of people who are disgusted by or uncomfortable with queerness. Tumblr is already pro-byler HQ so why do we need to turn Reddit into another HQ? Like just let our enemy be our enemy and we’ll see who wins in the end.

Plus why would you want byler endgame to be confirmed before the show is out? I seriously don’t understand the benefit of making redditors rage early or choose not to bother watching the show because they already know it’s gonna end gay as opposed to the infinitely more entertaining option of watching them rage in real time when the show itself comes out so that we get to see their reaction to specific scenes. I actually kinda wish the whole sign stuff didn’t happen because I genuinely don’t want byler to be actually spoiled before I get to see it myself. It’s much less fun to hold onto the knowledge of what’s gonna happen because then the only thing to look forward to is how it’s executed. I’d much rather go into the final season relatively blind so I can euphorically think, “Oh my god, they actually did it!” if it happens. And once that euphoria hits, then we can go rub it in people’s faces or whatever.

[will80sbyers]

not that i think there's anything wrong with it, in fact i think it's a good cause, but i find it borderline offensive that yall didn't care much for the strike until the promise of byler endgame becomes more tangible, all because of a sign that was maybe made by one of the writers. now suddenly yall are calling for action so this can be resolved quicker and we can get the season faster, even calling for people to donate when so many of our own bylers (good people who are consistently active in the fandom and supporting everyone) are struggling for money and asking for help to pay for rent, get out of bad living situations or sometimes even get food. and they get ignored. daily. no matter how nice they are or how much they beg for support, yall ignore them even if they're on the brink of poverty, only to later turn around and try to organize something for everyone.

it really screams that you guys only care about your entertainment instead of wanting to help others for the sake of being genuinely good people.

LMAOOOO I knew someone was going to be offended randomly!!!

Bestie I've been making posts about the strike since it started, but I can't do much other than donate money because I literally do not live in America!

Also I have not seen any byler ask for money and I don't have money myself in any case.

Go touch grass!!!

[whyyamihereagain]

I’m sorry but I do not understand why byler ‘doubt’ would lead to the deactivation of blogs and leaving fandoms. I get why the doubt exists because even when all the signs point towards a queer couple being endgame, you can still never be sure you’re not being queerbaited but season 5 could drop tomorrow and give us mileven married with 5 kids named Will and I will still be like cool story, I am now going to reblog 10 gifsets in a row that show Mike and Will being in love 

[turningsoft]

the way i've been gaslighting myself into thinking that byler would never be canon for 4,5 years. the way i was watching s4 vol2 fully believing mil*ven was endgame couple... i didn't ship it. i thought they're exasperating to watch but inevitable, lol. wasn't allowing myself to ship byler because, like, what's the point?

i remember watching mike's monologue, thinking: "this is SO cringey, how did they even manage to write something THAT bad? why is this scene so fucking anticlimactic? why does el look like she ate a lemon when mike says ily? why is nothing working??? HELP, you're ruining a show i didn't even care that much about, but now i'm genuinely concerned how bad it can be at times"

BUT while watching the van scene i was on the verge of tears myself because of how much i related to will and found this portrayal extremely well-done and realistic

the way i was watching the love triangle reunion in the desert and thought: "what the actual hell is up with always including will in the frame? why is willel's reunion exactly the same as mil*even's???" like, i was expecting for them to kiss. not because i wanted to, just in a "get it over with quickly" way

and that's just a couple of things that seemed off to me during my watch as a GA member. there were less prominent ones, and i would write them off as something i didn't quite catch or maybe just misunderstood

tl;dr even general audience members with zero media literacy skills can pick up on the signs something's incredibly wrong with mil*ven in s4. they just prefer not to think of it very hard

[nadia-zahra]

Unexpected Byler Proof

Netflix posted this for the upcoming Stranger Things Day

They chose to put in a lot of key props/costumes/sets from through out the show because everything is supposedly going to get tied together s5. But I’m gonna point out the shit that hints byler endgame and it saving Hawkins s5

First piece of imagery: the rainbow over Hawkins

Now obviously the rainbow is a gay symbol, but it’s also been seen numerous times around Mike/Will. Here's off the top of my head:

s2 Will’s rainbow rocket mentioned in shed scene

s2 Will’s snowball date is wearing a rainbow hair clip

s4 Mike standing in front of the Rainbow connection at Suzie's

s3 Max with rainbow sleeves sitting between Mike and Will

s2 Mike and Will stand in front of rainbow Apple sign in the AV club

s4 Will holding a rainbow rubber band ball when talking to Mike

Also, the lyrics from the never-ending story from s3 go along with this picture's byler saving Hawkins imagery.

"Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds" = Will's secret about being gay, being in love with Mike, and the truth about the painting and his speech will be unveiled to Mike. Mike's secret about not being in love with El and instead with Will will be unveiled to Will and El. Their secrets unfolding will be the first step to defeating Vecna.

"And there upon a rainbow is the answer to the never-ending story" = once Will and Mike confess their secrets, they will become a couple and join together to defeat Vecna and save Hawkins from what feels like to them a never-ending nightmare. Hence, the netflix pic having a big rainbow over the word HAWKINS.

Let’s look at this rainbow over Hawkins a lil zoomed out

The arcade sign, vecna’s clock, a hellfire shirt, and a tiger face within the hawkins highschool sign are in the immediate surroundings of the Hawkins rainbow. All these things correlate with byler saving Hawkins.

The Tiger correlates to Will-- in s4 he had multiple tiger objects in his room. He had a tiger figurine on his dresser, a tiger stuffed animal beside his bed, a tiger picture on his dresser, and another tiger picture behind his easel.

@aemiron-main made this post and @doriandrifting made this post that explains how arcades/games are byler coded. I’m not sure why this piece of byler evidence correlates to byler saving Hawkins, so if anyone wants to figure that out that’s be great!

Vecna’s clock being next to Hawkins just show that vecna is going to be the main threat s5, the person that byler is going to kill.

And let’s look at that Hellfire shirt

It’s got a tentacle/vine going through it with lightening striking it to the right and a demogorgon behind it to the left. I think this Hellfire shirt is Mike’s because 1) he’s the first person shown in the series wearing it 2) unlike Dustin and Eddie who wore shirts and jackets to cover it, Mike wore it as a stand-alone piece. So, the vine going through Mike’s shirt could mean he does indeed get Vecna’s curse s5, and with the demogorgon and lightening surrounding the shirt, it could also mean he gets trapped into the Upside Down similar to Will s1. Maybe when Will and Mike to save Hawkins, they'll be fighting Vecna in the ud because of Will possibly going there to save Mike. From the show, there's proof of Will going to the ud to save Mike; in their last heart-to-heart st4, Will follows Mike to sit together on the upside-down couch.

Second piece of imagery: the dice

Now there’s a couple of things to discuss with these dice but first and foremost I just need to get this out of the way: WE WERE RIGHT AB THE GAME FORESHADOWING S5!!!!!!!!! *throws fist in air victoriously*

Ok let’s get down to business. The 20 is what kills Vecna, not the 11 in the st5 foreshadow game. The fact that they included this dice roll in the pic means that it was important plot-wise. There're already clues from the show that tell us Byler = twenty (here's a link to a previous post I made ab that), but we're focusing on the new evidence this pic brings to the table. The things immediately surrounding the dice should indicate who the 20 is, and the things immediately surrounding the dice is Mike's sunglasses and Will's wizard hat. Something involving Vecna's is again seen next to byler imagery with his rose-door being the only other thing immediately next to the 20 dice. Again, it's hinting that byler is going to kill Vecna.

But let's look at how now Will's imagery is caught up in the vines and Mike's are free-floating. This alludes to Will being caught by Vecna during the battle and Mike having to be the one to save them by confessing his secrets. (EDIT: I should’ve clarified better, but I think this is Will getting trapped by Vecna during their final battle because of the rose door being right next to his trapped hat. When Max was trapped by Vecna in the UD that rose door was always there floating above them in the air.) I've already speculated that this is going to happen considering Mike's seen by Will as "the heart" of the party and has always been the one to save Will in the past (s1 Mike was nice to El which led to her helping them. In s2 he figured out the Mindflayer could spy on them + what he said to Will in the shed scene gave Will strength to tell them how to kill the Mindflayer), but it's nice to see another sign indicating what is to come.

I think that's all the byler saving Hawkins evidence within this pic, but I still think it's batshit crazy that there's any in it to begin with.

[redshoes-blues]

are you worried about the pro-mlvn BTS pictures? They look a little too happy...

Nah, not at all. There’s way too many options for what that scene could be about to get worried about it, in my view. I mean, we don’t know what any of these production photos are really about because they’re out of context and could be anything. They could be happy after breaking up. They could be smiling because they’re talking about Eggo’s or something unimportant. They could be happy about their romantic relationship too, which I’m not convinced of, but the point is that we really just don’t know the context. Here’s how I see it:

If anything, I see it as a good sign that they look happy in those photos. It reminds me of Mike and El in seasons 1 and 2, when their relationship was still mostly platonic. Before all of the baggage that comes along with their romantic relationship began to crop up (the issues weren’t really obvious until season 3). I’m not someone who thinks Mike and El need to be miserable around each other and hate each other for byler to be endgame, because that’s just not how the entirety of their relationship has been portrayed. They aren’t going to make Mike and El miserable around each other all the time, no matter what the outcome of byler is.

So basically I think we know too little and them being happy in a set photo together doesn’t really say anything. I don’t see those photos as “pro-mlvn” either, as we don’t know the context behind them. Also, this is all speculation at the end of the day and not worth getting stressed or worried about.