#catelyn stark vs jaime lannister

[legitchild]

Can the stans stop pretending Catelyn Stark was a super wonderful amazing mother? Cause she really wasn’t.

I’m not saying she was a bad mother. I’m just not saying she was a good mother either.

There are several issues I have with Catelyn’s parenting:

- She has blatant favourites. She outright states in one of her POV chapters that Bran is her favourite child and the way she thinks about Sansa vs the way she thinks about Arya is very telling. Her favouritism is, in my opinion, part of the reason why Arya has such bad self esteem- to the point of thinking that her family won’t rescue her- and why her relationship with Sansa was so fraught. Kids are perceptive and they pick up on parental favouritism. If you can tell your mother prefers your sister to you, that’s going to damage your self esteem and make you resent your sister.

- I do not like the way she chose to handle the war. She captured Tyrion despite knowing her husband and daughters were surrounded by Lannister men- this leads to Ned being injured by Jaime, and it’s this conflict, and the argument over Daenerys, that drives Robert into going hunting. And we all know what happens from there. Obviously there was a lot of other reasons for this, but Catelyn’s idiocy certainly didn’t help.

- The other aspect of Catelyn’s handling of the war I do not like is her decision to abandon her 8 year old and 3 year old sons. Bran is attempting to be the Lord in Winterfell, which he could really use Catelyn’s help and advice with, or even better, for her to be Lady instead. Rickon is 3 years old, a toddler still, and has no idea what is happening, he needs his mother. Robb, on the other hand, has a entire council of advisors who actually have experience fighting a war and therefore does not need Catelyn, especially considering her dumbass decision makes things much worse.

- Which handily leads me to Catelyn’s dumb decision to release Jaime. This screwed Robb over big time, went against his orders and cost him the Karstarks, leading to him losing the war. Now, again, obviously, there were a lot of other factors at play but it cannot be denied that Catelyn’s decision made things worse for Robb.

- My final point relates to Jon and Catelyn’s treatment of him. She stereotypes him based on her prejudices regarding bastards and treats him badly. Yes, treating an innocent child coldly because of something their father did and because of your own prejudices is, in fact, treating them badly. The way Catelyn treated Jon is not okay. Especially how she insisted he had to leave Winterfell when Ned left to go south. That is her kicking a 14 year old boy out of the only home he has ever known because of her own stupid prejudices which if she ever bothered to speak to him she’d know are not true. It is shitty behaviour.

I don’t think Catelyn is a bad person, or a bad mother. I just don’t think she’s the saintly amazing mother the fandom makes her out to be.

[dyannawynnedayne]

Favorite POV Poll

Hi friends!! Here is the bracket for the upcoming poll, where you will vote for who you think has the best POV chapters!

I will post the polls whenever I am able, and return here to add links to the individual polls!

Sansa Stark vs. Will

Cersei Lannister vs. Maester Cressen

Samwell Tarly vs. Jon Connington

Chett vs. Jaime Lannister

Jon Snow vs. Merrett Frey

Catelyn Tully vs. Kevan Lannister

Davos Seaworth vs. Duncan the Tall

Pate vs. Daenerys Targaryen

Ned Stark vs. Varamyr Sixskins

Bran Stark vs. Victarion Greyjoy

Asha Greyjoy vs. Arianne Martell

Arys Oakheart vs. Brienne of Tarth

Arya Stark vs. Areo Hotah

Theon Greyjoy vs. Quentyn Martell

Melisandre vs. Barristan Selmy

Aeron Greyjoy vs. Tyrion Lannister

[agentrouka-blog]

Hi Rouka! I love your blog! I had a question and I'm not sure whether you've answered this before. Why do you think GRRM made the Stark siblings all so young? Even Robb and Jon seem a bit too young in the first books for their arcs to really make sense? I've been wondering about this for a while. What do you think?

I could only speculate. I think he definitely wanted a coming of age story for the Starklings, he originally wanted time to pass more quickly, letting them grow up on the page, sort of depict how the young generation takes over from the older one, really work that theme of inheritance (titles, family dynamics, political and personal legacies) into the progression of the story.

They have to be children in the beginning in order to be shown growing up. The show made the - in my opinion - mistake of making Jon and Robb "adults", they have an age difference of, what, ten years to the oldest child actors? More? It hurts the substance of their arcs far more than the young ages of the book characters, I think. A fourteen-year-old baby being sullen and lashing out and making tragic life choices is a different animal from a 24-year-old "teenager" doing those things. Same with a boy forced into the role of a king vs. Richard Madden exchanging badass repartee with a Jaime Lannister who looks near his same age and then marrying some random lady without the tremendous excuse of being 15 when he does it. It's supposed to be the tragic loss of their youth to war and trauma, not a parade of Adult Confusion.

The Starklings are six children, only two of whom are the same age, so in order for the oldest to be still quite young enough to be kids (14) without creating an abusively close birth order for poor Catelyn, the younger ones ended up spanning from 11 to 9 to 7 to 3.

The passage of time and their ageing stalled, though, so we are left with baby protagonists in the latter stages of the book series. Yay.

[attonitos-gloria]

Why do you always talk about Tyrion as if he were a blameless victim? He's not the good man you think he is.

@_@ you again. hello!!! welcome back!! let's point it out. tw for ableism ahead.

tyrion is not blameless.

tyrion orders a man to be killed and made a meal out of his body. tyrion rapes a woman. tyrion kills his lover, cold-blooded, a powerless girl, simply because he wants revenge on his jealousy. tyrion has horrible thoughts about punishing his sister with rape. tyrion has lustful thoughts about a girl in her teens. of all these deeds, he is guilty. there's no way to justify his way out of those crimes. tyrion is not really a good man; good people don't dehumanize others that way.

tyrion is kind to bran, in an environment in which literally everyone expects the worst of him, and invents a saddle so bran could ride a horse. tyrion is kind to jon, a bastard; not even all people in jon's own immediate family are kind to him the way tyrion was (sansa isn't kind to jon; catelyn isn't; robb and theon often aren't). tyrion protects catelyn stark, his jailer, who is accusing him of a crime he didn't commit, when their party is attacked in their way to the Vale. tyrion is kind to sansa. he saves her from joffrey's kingsguard; when ned dies and he comes back to king's landing, he expresses grief for her loss - no one else did that; he doesn't rape her when the act wouldn't result in punishment for him at all - he would actually be rewarded for it; he doesn't relish in the victories of his family in the war, because he knows it cost sansa her own family (but it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I so bloody cold? is thought by Tyrion in this exact context: while he thinks about all Sansa has lost because of his family, and their marriage counts as one of her losses). He regrets not sending Ice, her father's sword, back to Winterfell sooner, before his family melted it to give joffrey a sword. in the worst depression of his life, he tries to protect penny in any way he can. and in all of these things, there was no one there to reward him, to praise him, to recognize him for being good. he did it because there's kindness in him, somewhere (his own words). tyrion is not really a bad man either; bad people don't care for others in uninterested, silent ways.

a person is not two columns side by side in which we write bad deeds vs good deeds, put weights on each item on the list, and do the math. and a character in a narrative, that is, the artistic representation of a person, if done right, if written right, isn't the sum of this math either.

tyrion's crimes are deeply connected to his family, to the ways house lannister affirms and exerts power and dominance. they employ cruelty for the sake of cruelty; it's meaningless. they do it to be feared. tyrion is often senseless cruel like that, in thoughts, in words, in deeds. he is a lannister through and through.

tyrion suffers repeatedly in the name of house lannister and by the head of house lannister himself. and, listen to me: he suffered those things because he is not an able-bodied man. jaime didn't suffer the things tyrion and cersei did. and that is not to say jaime didn't suffer at all! everyone suffers in systems like that, it's just that cersei and tyrion are victims of a certain kind of abuse that jaime was spared. 

tyrion's kindness is directioned to a certain group of people. he is not just spreading kindness all around, it’s not like him. tyrion is kind to vulnerable people, cripples, bastards, broken things. he is kind to people who can’t stand up for themselves. he is aware of such thing as collateral damage. and his kindness is tied to the fact he is not an able-bodied man. he is like that because growing up as a disabled man made him aware of a particular kind of suffering that he feels inclined to alleviate. 

these two get in conflict all the time. the conflict between the two sides of him is all tyrion’s arc is about (see: everything grrm ever said about him always). what story would we have if tyrion was able bodied? a completely different one, because we would have a completely different character.

i’m saying it like this, in small words and points, because there are two kinds of ableism, two kinds of violence against disabled people, and they’re both present in canon setting and in fandom and in our real lives. you can be just a complete asshole. you can hate disabled people in plain sight under the sunlight and you can simply not hide it. you can be the person who left this comment in one of my fics in which tyrion is, well, in a happy relationship: 

or. you can be the other guy. you can be the person who commits violence against disabled people through silencing: of their voices, of their pains, of their particular way of interacting with the world. you can be the ableist who makes their lives harder on this world by simply ignoring their disability at all, by making them, and their bodies, invisible.

i am tired of seeing people in this fandom going like “i wish tyrion would understand that he is not unloved because he is disabled, he is unloved because he is an asshole” etc. because if you saw a post going “i wish sansa would understand that she is not suffering because she is a female, she is suffering because she is a petty stupid little girl who got her father killed” we would all collectively lose our minds at the thickness of these words and the completely misogyny of it. (i know i have when i  saw it!) of course sansa’s young pettiness cannot explain the extent of her abuse; this shouldn’t be even a question. and i don’t want to go down the road of “making a list of good deeds and bad deeds of each character” all over again. it’s not my point. my point is: for us, as fandom, it’s easy to understand that in Westerosi culture, it is completely impossible to engage with Sansa (or Catelyn, or whoever) as a character without engaging with issues of patriarchy or misogyny. we know that the fact she is a woman in that world is crucial to understand her character and her themes and her arc, not because there is some female nature common to all women everywhere, but because in our world, and in theirs, women are trapped inside a system that aims at their bodies and their lives.

i hope you can see where i’m trying to get at. are all disabled people the same? of course not. asoiaf has a lot of disabled people. tyrion is just one of them. not all women are the same: sansa, cersei, arya, brienne, daenerys, catelyn, asha, their personalities and arcs and themes are different, because patriarchy affects them in different ways, and because they’re people and people are not all the same, lol. you don’t have to love every female character just because they are women, but if you simply refuse to engage and understand the ways their narrative arcs are impacted by patriarchy, you’re doing poor analysis of the text! it’s all i’m saying.

this happens to tyrion all the time. i’m not saying you have to like him! this is not my job, i’d be doing a poor work in this fandom if it were, i think. i am however arguing that not a negligible part of tyrion hate in the fandom comes from this silencing, from this invisibility. we don’t think the fact he is a disabled man has any weight, any real impact in his arc or his personality. it’s not worthy engaging with, losing our time with: he’s just a bad man. it’s like you can completely dissociate those things, like disability is part of the attire tyrion is wearing and when you take his clothes off you can see him as he is. but disability is not something he is wearing. he can’t take it off. disability is one of the raw materials that he and the world used to build the good in him and the bad in him, choice after choice, day after day. for better and for worse, in real life and in fantasy, disability has a formative role in one’s life. and it hurts me to see the way this is ignored, and shrugged off. i think there’s no other name for this, this is just ableism. 

i want you to think a little about the fact that we are, as a fandom, more inclined to have empathy for tywin lannister, more inclined to give him nuance, more inclined to like him and consider him some kind of BAMF that is simply a grieving widow and has a chance of being redeemed if someone could only break through his armor!!!, than we do for tyrion. please. please think about this for one whole minute, and tell me i am wrong in defending him.

i am not saying everyone who doesn’t like tyrion, or who likes tywin, is an irremediable ableist. i don’t know! tyrion is a disruptive character, and with this kind of character, it is natural that the readers’ responses vary. i don’t want to judge individuals, i’m talking about my experience with the fandom as a collective entity. i’ve made many friends in this fandom who went deep into the text, and they still didn’t like tyrion in the end, or they liked him because they thought he was a bad person, etc. we like different things, and at the end of the day, people can like whoever character strikes their fancy. but it’s something i see all the time, and when you start to notice some patterns, you can’t help but wonder. this is just one of the patterns, of the discourse around him. i’m not even giving you the whole picture. but the ableism in our fandom is pervasive, insidious, and it’s cruel. and this part is not really about our personal preferences. i think it’s something we should meditate on. as a fandom.

that being said: i think tyrion is hanging on a balance, and perhaps he will end the series as a villain, and perhaps he will end it as a hero, or maybe both or even better, neither. and in any case, you’ll find me here, stanning. he is not a real person. i like him because i like the character and the way he’s written! it’s not because i morally condone his actions, this is not the way I interact with fictional people and with media overall, and if it were, i wouldn’t have a character to like in asoiaf, except brienne who never made a single mistake in her life, ever. i’m here for the story being told, and the story being told through tyrion happens to be my favorite. 

but to answer your question, TL;DR: i'll speak about him as a victim as long as we ignore that there is a system that victimizes him on virtue of his disability. i’ll insist on it until we stop making disability invisible through sheer force of our violence.

thank you for the ask though! it’s a great question.

[it-happened-once-in-a-meme]

Game of Thrones Incorrect Quotes

Nedbert Incorrect Quote with Arya

Cute Petyr x Varys Incorrect Quote

Game of Thrones Pick-Up Lines (Valentine Cards) 💌😂 (Sansa, Cersei, Margaery, Jaime)

Joffrey Andrew Tate Incorrect Quote

Nedsei AU Incorrect Quote

Musical

Arya Stark vs. Petyr Baelish in Gay Denial Over Varys

Theon, Catelyn & Sansa Incorrect Quote

Tommen Incorrect Quote

Modern AU Incorrect Tywin Lannister Quote

[makerkenzie]

"He was in my way...any knight would've done the same."

I want to rant a bit about one of those book-to-show changes that made Jaime look like more of a trashcan.

It's his first escape attempt, the one in S2 where he kills his cousin Ser Alton and then kills the Karstark kid who was guarding his pen. (Which one of the Karstark sons was he? I don't remember. It hardly matters.)

Look, folks. Book-version, Jaime certainly did NOT kill his cousin. He wasn't exactly broken up about Ser Cleos Frey's death, but he wasn't the cause of it.

He DID kill two of Rickard Karstark's sons...in battle. Not in escaping captivity.

Thus in show version, Rickard Karstark seems more reasonable for wanting to kill Jaime as vengeance for his son. He doesn't seem any more reasonable when he murders Jaime's younger cousins, so...the change from book version doesn't make the story any more coherent.

Book version, when Jaime says "any knight would've done the same," he is talking about the battle. Book and show both, Catelyn says "How can you call yourself a knight when you've broken every vow you've ever made?" ANd she seems much more reasonable in show version, when they're talking about Jaime strangling his guard rather than killing another soldier in battle.

Why does she need to seem more reasonable? There's no disputing that Catelyn's one of the good guys. Just let her be a hothead.

Book version, there IS a first escape attempt. It involves Tyrion pulling some shady shit. Book version, Jaime kills Poul Pemford and Myles the squire in the first attempt. Do we ever hear about Poul's and Myles's families swearing vengeance against the Lannisters? No, because their families are already at war with the Lannisters and war is plenty hell enough.

Book version, he also kills Lord and Lady Hornwood's son Daryn at the same time as Eddard and Torrhen Karstark. Daryn Hornwood's death is much more devastating to his House than the Karstark boys for theirs, and no one ever suggests that the Hornwoods are owed vengeance against the Lannisters for their losses in battle. Nope, it's all Rickard Karstark acting like the war isn't meeting his expectations.

Show version, Jaime's all on his own with the first attempt, as we wouldn't want to have Tyrion seem less than honorable.

However, show version DOES include the bit in S1 where Jaime, just after his capture, explicitly proposes single combat with Robb to settle the war. That does make Jaime seem more sympathetic and the Starks less so by contrast.

So when he kills his cousin in S2, they're just throwing shit at the wall.

[fedonciadale]

Dear F what a brilliant remark about the Lannisters! They're at each other's throats and they'll all choose different sides and they'll (probably) all die. So in the end there is an issue about legacies and choices that Martin explores: brother against brother, it was Sansa's accusation against LF. Jamie after leaving the kings guard shall be the heir of CR. And T. will choose D and will die (remember Varys line to T: power is a shadow on the wall but it can kill you just the same). Thoughts?

Dear nonny,

You were talking about my comparison of the Lannisters and the Starks and how in other families but the starks inheritance and claims is always a family issue. While other families are divided over different claims, the Starks tend to acknowledge the better claim of other family members: Jon’s “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa”, Sansa’s “Your the lord of Winterfell now.” to Bran… etc. It is also very interesting, that Ned’s and Catelyn’s way of ruling has some long-lasting effects that leads to the Northern Lords supporting the Stark children (more so in the books than in the show). Ned/Cat against Tywin is the long lasting effect of just rule against the short term efficiency of ruthless tyranny.

This got a bit long….

The Lannisters really have a toxic legacy and all of them are tangled deeper and deeper into it. Trying to emulate Tywin they perpetuate the hard-handed rule of the Lannister patriarch and all have to deal with the repercussions that harsh rule brings with it. There are differences though: Cersei mostly wants to be seen as an even better Tywin. (”I am the only son Lord Tywin ever had”), powerful, ruthless, held in fear. She constantly compares herself to Tywin and I think she really has taken Tywin’s teaching, that the methods do not matter, to heart. I guess that even bookwise usurping the title of queen although she has no right to it would sit well with her. All the Lannister children think about the saying that Tywin ruled in reality when he was Aerys’ hand. And I’m sure, if Cersei is crowned in the books as well, that this will be her personal triumph: That she, who Tywin looked down upon because of her sex, managed to use the same methods and climb even higher in the world. I’m sure it will be her “Look father, how proud are you now?”-moment. But holding on to the crown will cost her everything. I think we can agree she is a goner. You know, Cersei is not stupid, and I always wonder what would have happened to her, if her father had just acknowledged (and loved) her beyond the beauty he needed for his politics? It is one of the reasons I have a soft spot for Nedsei as a crackship, because in this ship it is possible to explore a different Cersei, not one twisted so much by the lack of parents’ love that she turned to her twin brother to get some validation.

In regard to Tyrion, most of his acts are also done because he thirsts for his father’s approval, even after he killed him. It is his tragic, that just like Cersei he cannot untangle himself from the expectations his father planted into him. Tyrion does want the Rock, he wants his father’s position as the power behind the throne. While Cersei wants to ‘improve’ on her father’s legacy, Tyrion basically wants to become his father. It is not happenstance that he thrived while he acted as Hand. And I think it is no happenstance that in the show he did not choose a life in exile with Shae but the pit of intrigue which is the royal court. It is interesting, that even in the books, Tyrion sees his only chance at getting the Rock by allying with people who would conquer Westeros - and in this he is right. He has comitted patricide and as a murderer he can only hope for an all-encompassing pardon from a monarch who wants a new start. Tyrion’s hand is forced in this. No legal ruler of Westeros could pardon him. It must be someone who wipes everything away when he/she conquers the kingdom. This is why he is stuck with Da€nerys for better or worse, and I do think that he will resent this in the show and possibly in the books as well up to a point where he will become even more ruthless. And just like Cersei he’ll probably reap what he sowed. I’m certain he’ll die or maybe he’ll finally own his crimes and will go to the Wall. The show has only kept some very small aspects of ‘villain’ Tyrion that I think it is hard to predict what he does. Either there will be some last minute turn for book Tyrion and the show just took a shortcut to a better and responsible Tyrion, or some of Tyrion’s crimes still await us.

Now, Jaime is the one Lannister child that is not totally obsessed by earning his father’s approval and that is because he is the only one who got some of it. His father was proud of him for the very things Jaime wanted him to be proud. Tywin was proud of Cersei’s beauty but while she likes being beautiful she rather would have her father’s love for being smart. Tywin could acknowledge Tyrion’s cunning but disrespected him for the ‘fault’ of being a dwarf. Tywin was proud of Jaime’s skill with a sword and this is also something Jaime wanted.

That doesn’t meant that Jaime does not try to meet his father’s expectation as well, but it is slightly different for him. For once, he does not really care about Casterly Rock - or at least he has priorities. He has rejected the Rock twice: Once when he agreed to Cersei’s scheme to get him into the King’s Guard so they could still be close. Cersei asked him: ‘What do you want, a stone castle or a living woman?’ or something to that regard. And Jaime went along with her plan, that he would stay close to her as a King’s Guard when Tywin took his beautiful daughter to court. Only that did not go as planned. Jaime rejects CR again when Tywin offers him his position as heir. He even makes a present of the sword Tywin gave him as his heir to Brienne, choosing to keep the oaths he swore as KG and to Catelyn to protect her daughters. I guess this leaves open the possibility that Jaime will refuse the Rock a third time. Here my headcanon of Jaime becoming Jaime of Tarth and Hand of the King kicks in.

Nevertheless Jaime also tries to emulate his father when it comes to politics. We see this in AFFC. He is offended when his aunt Genna tells him that he is not much like Tywin and the ruthless methods he uses to re-establish order in the Riverlands are sure to blow up in his face. The interesting thing is though, that Jaime’s motives for imitating his father are a bit different from his sibling. He acts in this way because he has learned that being ruthless has effects, but he does it to ensure order. Sure, this order is a Lannister order that is supposed to sustain Tommen’s rule, but in this Jaime is different from his sibling. He is after getting influence and recognition but not necessarily after power for himself or you could say he is not only after power for himsel. And we have yet to see, if he will carry through with his threats. I think he walks a very fine line at Riverrun: He threatens Edmure and bends the Freys, all so that he can actually keep his promise to Catelyn to not take up arms against the Tullys - physically and for real. Yes, he threatens Edmure  - the notorious line ‘on a trebuchet’ - but he does not fight against the Tullys. We will see what happens if it comes down to him acting according to his threats.

So, Cersei will always choose her own side, Tyrion has no other choice but Da€nerys unless he manages to persuade another possible ruler to give him a pardon or unless he abandons his ambitions on CR. Jaime is actually the only one who has a choice, and I think ultimately his choice will be ‘honour’ and the Starks - or his redemption arc would be absolutely pointless. I’m still not sure, he’ll survive it. I think there are hints about this (how could he become a Hand otherwise), but he might be destined to death like his siblings.

I know what my preferred outcoume would be: Cersei dead, Tyrion at the Wall, Jaime of Tarth, Hand of the King. Lannister legacy - as dead as Cersei! And a song about the “rains that shower the Rock where lions used to prowl”

Thanks for the ask!

[hchollym]

Stark Parallels

I know a lot of people think:

Robb = Brandon

Sansa = Catelyn

Jon = Eddard

Arya = Lyanna

I can see how people would think that - there’s definitely some similarities there on the surface - but when you look deeper, none of those actually make a lot of sense.

There’s some similarities between pretty much all of the younger Starks and older Starks, but the ones that I personally think are the strongest are:

Robb = Lyanna

Sansa = Eddard

Jon = Brandon

Arya = Benjen

That may seem weird, but hear me out:

Brandon died trying to protect Lyanna. Robb did call the banners, but his main purpose was not to save Sansa & Arya, and even when he had the chance to do so (by trading them for Jaime), he didn’t take it. Jon is the one who died because he planned to march to Winterfell to save Arya (or who he thought was Arya) from being recaptured by Ramsay. The actions he took to save his sister (his ”oathbreaking”) were what led to his death. 

Robb, on the other hand, died because he broke his betrothal and married someone he shouldn’t have. Yes, he was betrayed by people he trusted, but the fact is that the Red Wedding would never have occurred if Robb had married Roslin (or any Frey girl). This is similar to how Lyanna would not have died if she hadn’t run away with Rhaegar and married him. Note: This is not me blaming Robb or Lyanna, and it’s not me saying that they deserved their deaths. That’s not the case at all. The Boltons, Lannisters, and Freys are to blame for Robb’s death, just as Rhaegar is to blame for Lyanna’s death. I’m simply saying that those decisions eventually led to their deaths through the actions of others.

Sansa’s arc is following Ned’s very closely. First, there’s her relationship with the “Baratheons” (and initially having a higher opinion of a “Baratheon” than he deserved, only to have that illusion shattered painfully). Then, there’s her time in the Vale (where Ned was fostered) and her relationship with the Arryn family.  Last, Sansa is going to end up as the Lady of Winterfell (which she even said that she never thought to have a claim to) just as Ned ended up being the Lord of Winterfell (and thinking that it was never meant for him). 

Arya actually shares very few similarities with Lyanna outside of her appearance and wanting to fight with a sword. I think she is most like Benjen, who eventually left Winterfell (to go to the wall) after losing part of his family. Benjen seems to have wanted something different than the life of a spare Lord, and his loss certainly played a part in him not wanting to stay. This is similar to Arya leaving on a ship when everything is said and done. I am hopeful though that - like Benjen - Arya will still at least visit her family occasionally instead of being completely separated from them.

Anyway, that was just something that came to mind when I saw another post about the new vs. old generations of Starks. 😊

[jackoshadows]

Jon’s actions with respect to Arya is also compared to Rhaegar/Lyanna because the stakes are much greater and the gravity of their actions makes the situation more dire.

For Ned, bringing up Lyanna’s son as his bastard is a personal sacrifice of his honor. The only people affected by Ned’s actions are Ned himself, Jon and Catelyn. No one else.

On the other hand, the decision by the LC to intervene against house Bolton is, in comparison, an action that puts the NW itself at risk. That’s why he dithers for an entire book about whether or not he can save a most beloved sister. At stake is an 8000 year old Institution, vital to the defense of the realm against an existential, apocalyptic threat inching ever closer to mankind.

Jon’s actions as LC have now doomed that institution, broken it’s famed neutrality, instigated mutiny and Jon is now lying dead in the snow.

And that’s where the comparison to Rhaegar/Lyanna comes into the picture.

Maester Aemon’s words on Love Vs Duty, invokes both Ned and Rhaegar:

Love is the bane of honor ( Ned Stark), the death of duty (Rhaegar Targaryen)

“A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

It’s of interest to note here that while everyone thinks Ned forsake his honor and sired a bastard that’s not really the case. And while everyone thinks that Rhaegar forsake his duty and kidnapped and raped Lyanna, that’s really not the case either. If prophecy is involved, Rhaegar was trying to save the realm - doing his duty. Ned was trying to save his little nephew - an honorable deed.

Ultimately, Ned sacrifices his honor for Lyanna. But he is alive and well and has an adopted son who loves him like a father.  Jon and Rhaegar end up dying for their actions. Rhaegar’s actions leads to Robert’s Rebellion, Jon’s destroys the NW. That’s where the parallel comes into the picture

'The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that.' - Jeor Mormont

So yes, Jon’s actions with respect to Arya is a parallel to Ned/Lyanna, it’s also a parallel with Rhaegar/Lyanna. It’s even a parallel to Catelyn/Sansa/Arya. Catelyn releasing Jaime Lannister to save her girls dooms her son’s campaign. It’s Robb and Jeyne Westerling. They are all parallels.

It’s about how these characters end up selfishly choosing love over their sworn oaths and duty and honor, because at the end of the day, they are only human.

 "What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms... or the memory of a brothers smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy."

[vivacissimx]

Like thematically the whole is Jon a Stark or a Targaryen or is Theon a Greyjoy or a Stark or Tyrion/Cersei/Jaime is truly Tywin's kid discourse is so misplaced. If it's meaningful to people personally then great but that's not my point. The fucking fundamental question of belonging is "complicated" by the inheritance of a legacy but it isn't answered by it! The question "who am I" originates in the family home because that's ground zero. It's training wheels. It's the point of departure.

The legacy from being born into a noble family is like. Getting $200 at the beginning of monopoly. That's where basic sense of self is fostered and it informs identity but it doesn't define it. It's in how Theon goes from telling Catelyn "my House owes yours a great debt" (performance within the status quo) to "this was not the Pyke he remembered. Or did he remember?" (incongruency between self vs. true perception) to "two sons of Eddard Stark to pay for Rodrik and Maron" (futile attempts to reconcile) to "Theon wondered what that would be like, to have a home" (acceptance that legacy must be of your own making). Tyrion is another incredible example because there's a marked tension between him being a Lannister vs. being Tywin's son and it's the latter that both defines & redefines the former

fuck it mask off I think fandom cares wayyy too much about asoiaf characters paying for and/or embodying the legacy of their parents. They're all going to have imperfect burdens on their shoulders but that isn't predetermining. Nobody is going to resolve the violence of their ancestor's existence, as much as nobody can avoid the consequences of their parent's choices, because that's an impossible desire! They're supposed to struggle, reject, return, internalize, fuck up in similar yet entirely different ways. They're not supposed to fix the past, that's ridiculous! Like why is Samwell Tarly the polar opposite of Randyll Tarly? Why did Oberyn die trying to avenge Elia? Why did Euron win the kingsmoot when all his promises were balls to the walls deranged? The answers are obvious and also all the same.

Anyways legacies exist and are important but just like prophecies they're of human making, with all the convolution and conflict that implies. As readers we have to at least act like these characters have free will because their choices should matter, even if/when they're backed against a brick wall.

[dyannawynnedayne]

Hello all! Please find the quarter finals for Who's Your Favorite POV? below!

Sansa Stark vs. Jaime Lannister

Catelyn Tully vs. Daenerys Targaryen

Bran Stark vs. Brienne of Tarth

Arya Stark vs. Tyrion Lannister

[minasmorghul]

ok ok, re: the genderbent starklings au. a) how does the red wedding happen? b) Is Symeon king in the north or just allied with Stannis? c) How far do you think the relationship between Jonelle anc Catelyn changes in this au? d) what happens to Jonelle when/after winterfell falls? (both times)

hi!!! Answers below bc I tend to ramble sorry since this AU is kind of half-formed to me!!! (also these are out of order a bit)

General things about this envisioning is that time passes a bit slower on the Westerosi side here-- it's not like a few months of breakneck battles and events like in the book, but more akin to how in Fire and Blood, in how takes two years for the Northern Army to march down, etc. Also the Doylist explanation is that I can't see a 12 year old Symeon leading an army (at least not successfully), plus I feel like Symeon would be inclined to negotiate before bringing out the swords first. I would estimate that by the time the Riverlands are being pillaged by the Mountain, Symeon would be newly 13. Almost 15 once the Wot5K begins in earnest.

b) In this envisioning, there's not a King in the North, as Symeon is allies with Stannis and looking to seat him on the Iron Throne. Since Symeon served in the Vale as a squire, he might find it easier to muster forces from there as well (vs in canon). Also this is silly but Courtesy the Gyrfalcon is absolutely canonical to Symeon and so I think Stannis, ruminating on his own Proudwing, might be closer to feeling sympathetic about Symeon and his cause.

a) With Stannis having the Stormlanders, Riverlanders, Valemen, and Northmen behind him, I do think that it's likely a much likelier chance they pose a far greater threat to the Lannisters, who might try to take a more underhanded way out. Betrayal at a peace parley sounds like a thing they might do. Maybe it involves an exchange of Jaime for Barra? Symeon and Artos are likely both on the table as potential bridegrooms, and since I'm Starkpoole trash I do like the concept of Symeon and Jeyne being childhood sweethearts who marry during the wartime, which pisses off the Freys, and possibly other Northern Houses for him to choose a steward's daughter over their girls? That coupled with the fact that Symeon was squired in the South will make him somewhat controversial while they’re currently at war with a southron faction I think. The power of Jeynes I swear to the gods. At this point I don't think Symeon is as disabused of his noble and chivalric notions as Sansa is (in part due to Sansa having her idealism literally beaten out of her), and having a kind of semi-elopement for love seems to be something he might do as a result. Narratively this mirrors Duncan and Jenny's story, and the Red Wedding as conclusion to that I think works as well, the prince/lord who marries a lower-born girl for love, spurning the noble family he promised to marry into, causing strife and death. Symeon might still have Edmure marry Roslin, and have this wedding held in concurrence with peace talks/hostage exchanges with the Lannisters, but they're betrayed by a combination of their own men, and the Lannister forces there at the parley as well. RIP to the Starks. (Oh also in the realm of marriages, I do imagine that the Northern Houses might feel slightly miffed over Barra also having been engaged south too, over marrying into their Houses, since the Starks had married South the previous generation too). As for the aftermath, I kind of feel like Baelish's general obsession over Catelyn (and subsequently Sansa) might be transferred instead onto Barra in this AU (which still, yuck), and he might "run into" Symeon and Barra when they escaped to the Vale and offer himself as their "saviour". I like the idea of Symeon simply claiming himself to be "Alyn Stone" cause it's a nifty lil name, but Barra likely as not will become this AU's "Alayne" tbh.

c) I think Catelyn might be stiff, but not really hateful since Jonelle won't pose a direct threat to her sons' inheritances. I feel like the moment that she really truly warms up a bit (from earlier hostility) is between Symeon and Artos's births, Symeon because now she has a son, Jonelle is no longer a legit kind of threat to her place as Winterfell's Lady, and Artos because it's the added security of a "spare". I don't ever think they'll be close; the way Eddard introduced Jon/elle into the family made this kind of impossible in my eyes, but their relationship is more acquaintances with hierarchy, rather than being so strained as in canon. I don't think they'll have bad blood, I just don't see them as being close. Especially since if Jonelle marries a minor bannerman or something, her children might still prove threats, and in this AU there's not even a Night's Watch she could join in order to allay that kind of anxiety as the septas and silent sisters seem to be Faith-related organizations.

d) @khazzman introduced me to the idea of a Theon/Jonelle pairing so suffice it to say I'm a bit obsessed. It would provide a mirror canonverse Robb and Jeyne W. "I took her castle and she took my heart" (esp as I had Jonelle being named Jeyne at first as well), but also is a foil to Euron and Falia Flowers. It also has a few bits of the Jon/Ygritte kind of hostagetime romance element to it as well. I want Jonelle to play an active role in facilitating Branda and Raya’s escape here, but I think the knowledge that Theon killed two innocent children in their place would be no less horrifying to her (to anyone, really). It’s a few weeks that Theon holds Winterfell, but I think it’s a few weeks of a lot of angst. At first I wanted Jonelle to inadvertently make things worse for herself and everyone else (the way Jon kinda was at several points in the Night’s Watch), in opening the gates for the Boltons in the false belief they’re here to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks (but then I remembered that they were fighting Ser Rodrik’s men outside so that doesn’t work. Jonelle is spared from this maximum guilt overload for now). I don’t think Jonelle will follow Jeyne Poole’s fate. Well, idk she might? But I think marriage to her is far more tenuous for the Boltons to use than claiming Jeyne was Arya, since she’s a known bastard, and also several Starks are all known to be still living (albeit MIA and wanted dead). She’ll likely be a hostage at the Dreadfor, or perhaps she and Theon can escape, to the Wall or to Stannis. A girl in and greyjoy on a dying horse.

[hosts-of-valyria]

A little Game, Cat fight: Two princesses: Morfydd Clark as elderly Myrcella Lannister Myrcella Lannister vs. Rhaenys Targaryen

Council of Harrenhal

"I hate you", roared Myrcella like a lioness, "I hate you more", hissed Rhaenys like a snake, "i hate you even more", growled Myrcella, "i hate you so much", roared Rhaenys. Myrcella and Rhaenys pulled each other's hair, "I'll tear your ugly hair out one by one, cunt. You stink, you suck and you have a fat ass. Talk to the hand, bitch", screamed both of them.

Jon Targaryen, Tommen Lannister, Myrcella Lannister, Rhaenys Targaryen, Joffrey Lannister and Robb Stark vs. Robert Baratheon

Bradley James as an elder Joffrey Lannister, firstborn child of Jaime and Cersei Lannister, the strength of a young Tywin Lannister in Joffrey, a true Westerner. William Moseley as an older Tommen Lannister, Jaime's strength ln Tommen

Robert Baratheon jumped up drunk and roared drunk, "surrounded by Lannisters. Everytime I close my eyes, I see their blond hair and their smug satisfied faces. Brood of incest! I kill you all! I kill every single Lannister, Stark, Martell, Targaryen, Tyrell, Greyjoy, Tully. I don't hesitate! The body of the northern whore, dornish bitch and lion cunt is mine. Enough with this madness!"

Cersei Lannister, Lyanna Stark and Elia Martell vs. Robert Baratheon

Lyanna, Cersei and Elia laughed aloud, "haha the childish Storm King and Misogynist speaks. The little child throws a tantrum. You wanna fuck, Robert? Whoever wants to fuck has to be friendly. I'm sorry, Lyanna and I only fuck with Rhaegar and Arthur, the two love each other. We only fuck with winners in life and men who care. Nobody wants you", said Elia

"And I only fuck with Jaime, you fat, stupid pig. These are good men in contrast to you", said Cersei.

Tommen, Aegon, Robb, Jon, Joffrey, Myrcella and Rhaenys shouted at Robert, "Why do you interfere Usurper, it's none of your business you little bunch of shit. Jaime is better man than you!"

And the People laughed aloud over Robert as he puked alcohol on the floor, "I drink myself into the grave."

Lysa, Catelyn, Olenna, Balon, Cersei, Lyanna, Elia, Eddard, Rhaegar, Tywin screamed at Robert, "did anyone say the litter bin is allowed to speak", Robert fell to the floor drunk and fell asleep drunk in his own vomit like a pig, "And tomorrow he will have forgotten everything. Forgotten in his violence, inability to love, addiction to indulgence and drunkenness", said Renly and Stannis and kicked Robert in the cross.

"And do you fuck your brothers like your narcissistic mother, Lannister bitch", said Rhaenys in heavy Dornish accent and sipped from dornish wine. Myrcella sipped from dornish wine, "oh Kitten has claws. And you, possessive Targaryen cunt?"

Elia slapped Rhaenys in the face, Cersei slapped Myrcella in the face, "careful young ladies."

Rhaenys and Myrcella rubbed their cheeks, "ouch. Sorry mum", Elia, Cersei and Lyanna went away with a glass wine.

Joffrey, Aegon, Robb and Jon looked at each other, "and because of that shit, your little, smelly fights, Shireen is better than you two bitches", roared Joffrey at Rhaenys and Myrcella.

Robb, Aegon, Joffrey and Jon laughed aloud, "And now shake hands and become inseparable sisters for the rest of your life."

Rhaenys and Myrcella looked at each other and took each other's hand and toasted with dornish wine, "All right cat fight is over. You and Shireen? You're dating Shireen? This is cool. What are you two doing?"

"We cook together, we meet regularly, we often ride through the Kingswood, Stormlands or Westerlands", said Joffrey. Robb, Jon, Myrcella, and Rhaenys nodded, "cool, good luck."

[sunfyress]

so i see a lot of people talking about how the asoiaf fandom treats it’s female characters today and i figured that i would give my two cents on it (also, it gives me a reason to procrastinate writing my history essay lmao).

first off, read this post by @maesterleia because they explained my exact thoughts better than i ever could.

female characters are treated are with a double standard compared to male character -- which, unfortunately, is very typical in all fandoms but it seems to be taken to the extreme in asoiaf, a book series that does everything possible to make it’s characters as nuanced and shaded grey as possible. and while most of the male characters are analyzed with that in mind, every female character either must be a) a perfect woman that has never done or even think a wrong thing or b) an evil, scheming seductress who’s probably going to end up a worse war criminal than tywin lannister.

forget nuance, forget complexities of the human nature, forget being human -- women are not allowed to be flawed here and if they are, they must be a villain. it’s like @maesterleia wrote in their post “Why is a female character having flaws seen as detrimental? Because this mindset is rooted in the idea that only villainous female characters are allowed to have flaws. Cersei, for example, can be dissected and analyzed critically because she’s on the villainous side of the narrative. She’s complex and sympathetic, but still largely classified as a villain (generally), and therefore, she is--according to this mindset--allowed to be flawed.” 

it’s a ridiculous ideology and the cause of so many stupid and pointless fandom wars. the idea that a hero that happens to be female must be free of any flaws or arcs where they battle with their own morality when male characters like jon snow or robb stark is judged the same way makes no sense to me. 

why isn’t jon judged for the way he called myrcella “insipid” for smiling at robb and being an eight year old girl or how he was classist and insensitive to his other night watch’s recruits in the beginning of agot the same way sansa was mean and insensitive to arya? why isn’t robb talked about descending into madness or dictatorship after he ordered the execution of rickard stark the same way daenerys is talked about after she ordered the execution of the slave masters? why is tywin admired for being ambitious but cersei or margaery or arianne is called a scheming slut for having ambitions too? why isn’t ned shamed for taking a young theon away from his home and culture and forcing him to live as a hostage the same way catelyn is shamed for not being a mother to her husband’s bastard? hell, why is jaime considered to be morally superior than cersei, who yes is a very bad and terrible person, when he tried to kill an eight year old boy and still shows no remorse, why he is the good lannister and worthy of redemption but cersei is not?

the unfair and ridiculous double standard is of no use when it comes to analyzing the female characters and the only thing it does is caused the fandom to pit women against each other. the “sansa vs daenerys” debate or the “arya vs sansa” or the “elia vs lyanna” debate, all discussion full of misogyny -- deciding which character is better by saying who hasn’t done any wrong things (all of them have done some not-so-great things and all of have them done even more great things, give it a break guys) or who’s better by who’s more feminine or who’s less feminine (ridiculous AND sexist, especially considering it’s possible to be both feminine and masculine and not just one or the other). This also goes hand in hand with the idea that there is only allowed to be One female character that can be the hero in the series and all the others must be either be their enemy or something to prop them up -- all while most of the fandom can find it in themselves to have multiple complex male characters in their heart.

the whole ideology that male characters can have flaws and make mistake and still be considered capable of redemption, or capable of learning, or still a good person while such ideas can’t be afforded to female characters is fucking toxic and a great way to make a fandom unbearable to be in.

[daenerysstrangersagain]

Re-designing Colors of Game of Thrones

Some thoughts on costume design which I thought of while creating this post. The colors and outfits I chose are characters at the peak of their power, rather than for everyday wear, and the process leading up to each of them would be intricate.

Cersei and Margaery

Cersei's power color is red, not black, while Margaery's is green.

As Renly favors Tyrell green, I would have dressed them both in dark green throughout Renly's plotline. The green would make them stand out as their own faction (vs Stark grey/white, Baratheon black/gold, and Lannister red), while the gold would provide an echo of both a king's crown and the Lannisters' concurrent attempt to steal the crown.

When she comes to Kings Landing, no longer assured in her and her family's power, I would maintain the colors but make the green lighter. Reducing the bold colors she wore as queen to indicate the Tyrells' fading power, and be reminiscent of the king's last betrothed, Sansa, and her soft blue and pink gowns from seasons past.

Canon GOT costume in Season 3 vs the green I have in mind.

The costume designers for Game of Thrones said that they wanted to make the Tyrells show up in silver, in contrast to the Lannister's gold. They traded green for silver-blue, rather than trading out gold.

Instead I want to give Margaery and Cersei an inverse costume arc. In the early seasons, Cersei wears pale gold, not for House Lannister, but for Robert's house. Gold is a Baratheon color as well and it silences her Lannister red just as her marriage to Robert silences her voice. In later seasons, with Robert dead and her sons on the Iron Throne, Cersei wears Lannister red.

Joffrey wears gold with red highlights, as he's stolen a crown, but Cersei and Margaery are the ones fighting for it. I would give Cersei bold reds which are slowly covered by gold armor as she loses her influence over Joffrey. Cersei often wears false armor in GOT canon, and has expressed multiple times that she should have been born male over Robert and Jaime. As her power fades gold armor covers her Lannister birthright .

Margaery would start off with pale green, and as her power grows so would the boldness of the colors. The day she marries Tommen she would wear gold, and afterward true Tyrell green. This can also be echoed in the city and keep, Baratheon joined with Tyrell, and the Lannister red that once ruled now gone.

Arryn and Tully

Both Arryn and Tully would share blue as a major theme, rather than white or red. The first reason is shared, as major players own both colors; the Lannisters and Targaryens claim red while Starks wear white. Second, both houses serve a similar place in the narrative as allies of House Stark.

Arryns would have a softer sky blue, while Tullys wear a deeper shade to go with their red details.

This gives multiple visual links from characters we know (Edmure, Catelyn) to characters introduced later (Lysa, Robin). We also can match Tully banners with Robb in the earlier seasons to the Vale with Sansa in later ones. Viewers get used to seeing blue banners flying alongside the direwolf.

However while similar, they are offset by differences when next to each other. Beautiful, soft clothes for Lysa and Robin, who sit out the Wot5K, contrast mudded armor and red-toned leather for the Tullys.

Daenerys and Cersei

Daenerys ends the show in red and black, claiming the colors of the Baratheons and Lannisters along with the crown.

When she returns to Meereen from the Dothraki Sea, Dany trades the blue of the Dothraki and the green of Meereen (both for the Green Grace, as Dany gradually ceeds power to the masters, and as a parallel to Margaery), for black. Confident in her path, she burns the masters and claims their fleet, and leaves Meereen with a ruling counsel and an army.

In the North, Dany wears no white to honor the Starks, but black for her family, for her sons, for the last trueborn Targaryen, for the shield to guard the realms of men. Her armor is the same color as Drogon's scales, and when looking up at him her hair is the only indication that he has a rider and is not wild. Daenerys brings her dragons and her armies to bear against the Army of the Dead.

Cersei, who reclaimed Lannister colors with the death of Tommen and Margaery, awears a red that is echoed throughout the Red Keep. The last bastion of Lannister strength. As Daenerys destroys her armies and invades her city, her red turns to the black of mourning and loss. The black of her Baratheon husband, the last true king. In contrast, the red Dany wears grows stronger with each victory.

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Love is the death of duty vs Duty is the death of love

I’ve been rewatching some season 1 episodes and man do they hit different now knowing how it all ends. A lot of us already know that Jon chose love over duty, that he chose to protect Sansa (and the Starks by extension) by killing Dany, which fulfilled Jon’s promise to Sansa from season 6. We also already know they were attempting to make Jon Ned 2.0 but watching this season, I didn’t realize just how much:

“Tell me, did you ever wonder why men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?”

“No.”

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

...

“Yet, sooner or later, there comes a day in every man’s life where it is not easy. A day when he must choose.”

“Then this is my day. Is that what you’re saying?”

“It hurts, boy. Oh, yes. I know.”

“You do not know. No one knows. I may be a bastard but he is my father and Robb is my brother.”

*Aemon laughs*

“I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself and live with it the rest of your days.” (x)

I’m not saying that D&D knew this early on how the series would end. But I do remember GRRM being involved in the show up until season 4 I think it was. It really was all going to come down to the choice Jon made. And how ironic that a Targaryen is the one to pose this question to him, a Targaryen that is part of the Night’s Watch as Maester. 

Ned chose to honor Lyanna’s request and keep Jon safe, spawning the heartbreak of Catelyn and people doubting his honor, two very important things to him before his family grew. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they did not know the real reason). Ned made his choice and lived it with the rest of his days. Jon was not Ned’s son but his nephew, the trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Jon chose to keep his promise to Sansa and keep her safe, spawning the consequences of killing Dany and his banishment to the Wall. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they think they know the reason why but they don’t truly know why Jon chose to do it outside of KL massacre). Jon made his choice and now he has to live with it the rest of his days. Sansa was not his half-sister but his cousin, the trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn.

Jon indeed chose Love over Duty just like Ned did. And that is also why he has Ned’s armor on when going to confront Dany in the throne room.

He wasn’t just echoing Robb. The show wasn’t just displaying subtly that Jon was listening to Sansa’s warning from 7x01 about being smarter than both Ned and Robb. He was also channeling Ned, in the fact that he had to make a decision just as Ned did once upon a time. If Robert ever found out that Ned had been harboring a child of Rhaegar’s that his beloved Lyanna bore to the Prince that stole her... It was a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it made him look. Jon has also been faced with a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it eventually makes him look to parts of Westeros. 

Tyrion had that little clever spinoff of Aemon’s line that we all remember: “Duty is the death of love” -- because Tyrion thought Jon was just as much in love with Dany as he was, and even likens Jon to Jaime. But Jon never answered him or nodded or confirmed in any way that Tyrion was right. And even though Jaime is a mirror for him in the story, and Cersei has been paralleled with Dany throughout the series, other than their relationship being considered incestuous by Westeros, Jon/Dany are not the new Jaime/Cersei, and definitely not at this point in the story.

Jaime and Cersei are twins. Jon and Dany are two sides of the same coin while being aunt and nephew. Jaime and Cersei grew up together. Jon and Dany did not. Jaime and Cersei were raised to be Lannister first. Jon was a bastard in the Stark family and is taught family is important. Dany was raissed on the run and taught that the Targaryens are the rightful ruling family and that the IT/Westeros is theirs by right. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is considered forbidden due to it being incestuous (something Westeros is trying to get away from after Aerys). Jon and Dany’s relationship is not considered forbidden (because no one really knows who Jon is yet). The only similarity the two relationships share is that Cersei/Dany become queen and Jaime/Jon become a sort of knight/advisor role to each of them, as well as both individuals being related by blood. 

And this is why Jon repeats Aemon’s line in that 8x06 jail cell scene after Tyrion talks about being in love with Dany, Jon being in love with Dany, and compares him to Jaime. Because Aemon’s dialogue to Jon back in season 1 confirms exactly what choice Jon made in the end:

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

8x06 script: “Jon knows what it means for those he loves most”

Jon chose Love over Duty. He protected Sansa like Ned protected him. It came full circle. 

Edit 4/23/21: credit goes to @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir​ for catching that Ned died dishonoring himself for love as well. And funnily enough, Sansa was also one of the ones he wanted to protect when making that decision, choosing to confess his treason.