#dabb negative

[scenteddean]

anyway, at the end of the day my one and only enemy will always be 15x20 and i think 15x18 was the one good thing about the run of those final 3 episodes and to me it was perfect the way it was

[scoobydoodean]

I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)

[spn20rewatch]

Season 5, Episode 19: Hammer of the Gods (January 30th)

A group of gods plot to stop the Apocalypse. -Super-wiki

Originally aired on April 22nd, 2010.

Written by Andrew Dabb, Daniel Loflin, & David Reed. Directed by Rick Bota.

Fun (?) fact: This episode is fairly controversial for its negative depiction of the deities present.

Enjoy the episode, and check out #spn20rewatch for more posts!

[cassierobinsons]

i'm not familiar with your game but have you not finished spn? i hated jack for 2 seasons straight but it was cas in s15 who made me accept jack into my heart. it was a hard long road to get there but there'd always be a character i could relate to with my feelings towards jack, even when they were negative. that made it easier, it made me feel vindicated

no I have not 🫣 I hate Andrew dabb and doubt I will ever finish the show before like 2027 🫣🫣🫣 but who knows, maybe I'll undergo the same character arc as you did!

[dotthings]

Here's the thing. While it's great to encourage an environment where different approaches and nuanced variances on the canon are welcomed and prompt more discussion, there comes a point where chronic negative misreadings set in, and it becomes an echo chamber. Projections. Bad faith readings. People unable to discern themselves from the characters' pov. People unable to discern between their fears on what the character's intentions/motivations are vs the character's intentions/motivations. Not all of this is on purpose. But there are some truly nihilistic, chronically negative takes, and bad faith takes, and this is something that has eaten the fandom since the beginning of the show. I'm referring here to something different than people getting pissed at a particular episode or arc--spn is imperfect and sometimes it is an aggravating text. There has to be room for criticism, and space made for people to disagree.

But room for criticism and space to disagree doesn't mean having to throw the doors wide open to every chronic bad faith, nihilistic, or highly negative reading that comes along.

There is such a thing as a canon and throwing spaghetti at the wall, and protecting it under the idea of "interpretation," when that is protecting chronically negative, worst faith readings heavily based in projections, isn't how media discussion actually should work. It gets to the point where certain chronic uncharitable readings get popularized and it results in a miserable environment where anyone who sees it differently gets driven out of fandom space after fandom space just for not hating the way others hate. It's not joyful. It's stressful.

It's not about Dabb era. It's not about S15. It's not about The Trap. It's that I've had to see this in spn fandom over and over and it's been there since Kripke era.

Just pulling out one example. The discussions over The Trap. Most takes, chronically, since that ep aired, have tipped over into either far too blaming about Dean, or far too blaming about Cas. I'm not sure which character has in fact gotten the worst most chronic unjust reading, I just know I've witnessed it in stereo, from the Cas stan side against Dean, from the Dean stan side against Cas.

It's nails on a chalkboard reading some of those takes. It was back when those seasons were airing and it is now, 4 years after spn has ended. It's a record scratch on the canon song, over and over and over. It's chronic.

And it is wrong. I'm just going to say it. Both sides have been wrong. And they are wronging both Dean and Cas and they are wronging the story told by a whole team of writers who cared about the story and the characters. I actually don't care that much what people think of me. I do have a right to assert myself there, and defend myself, but that isn't what this is about at the core.

I can't just shake this off.

Dean and Cas both deserve better and the story deserves better. They're both deeply complex characters, neither is a villain, neither is [insert whatever bad faith unfairly harsh distortion of their canon selves one side or the other tripled down in clinging to this time].

I have to triple underline how CHRONIC THIS IS. (Not just on Dean and Cas).

It's been in every era of SPN.

But right now late SPN is still a hot topic, it's the most recent, its ramifications are still rippling, it comes up most often in my orbit and pocket of fandom.

I am consciously trying to keep my own bitterness about the "antidabbnatural" chronic takes contained so it doesn't distract from the actual reasons I'm here and what I want to focus on, but sometimes it is really hard, it's like I'm never going to escape from it, and like, of course, people are allowed to be angry, at the characters or the creative decisions, but at a certain point it tips over into chronically nihilistic negative hot takes that leaves little room for anything else.

Maybe people who came in late also don't know just how bad it got during the airings of those final seasons, how much hatred there was, how many attacks there were on good faith meta writers.

I don't have spoons for it any more, so I insulate myself and curate really strictly. Even with all my curating, it's not enough. It's a cycle that's inescapable.

Can't do anything about what other people do or what their takes are on the canon, this isn't a tone police or oppressing people or saying they can't post whatever the heck they want. I'm saying I'm allowed to have feelings about it and react to chronically negative takes.

I also am fed up with people having to apologize for liking S12-15.

Anyone who doesn't like that I actually appreciate the work of the writers room and the end results that wound up on screen, that I don't hate that era, that I've had my own grievances with it, but also have with Carver era, Gamble era, Kripke era, is just going to have to cope.

And let me make this completely clear: Dean is my favorite. He's been my favorite since episode 1 aired. Dean's been the character whose pov I consider first since the beginning. That doesn't mean I don't relate to or feel for Sam or Cas's pov, this is me being realistic and honest about being a Dean fan--not in the sense that I only care about Dean, in the sense that Dean has been my heart center of this show, and the most dominant lens of my entry point into the story. Not the sole entry point. But my heart center. I've been an spn fan for almost 20 years. Dean is my very favorite. That doesn't mean I have to throw other characters under a bus and capitulate to what bitter Dean stans think I should capitulate to.

And one of the reasons I like the final seasons is Dean's arc.

It is because of Dean. It's not despite how Dean was treated, I like it anyway. It's because of Dean. Because of his storyline. Because of the compassionate, painful arc the canon took him through.

I have seen "antidabbnaturals" go off on why they hate those seasons and they shout about how Dean was portrayed, treated, and depicted, and it puts flames on the side of my face because they are being reductive and insulting. Not the canon. Stans. Or it's Dean stans or it's Cas stans, going on another bashfest against Cas or against Dean.

But I want to make this absolutely clear, my so-called "apologism" for those seasons isn't about Destiel. It's because Dean's story, most of all, that I find it compelling. There are things I wished had been done better, or more completely, things that got short-changed. Mostly that concerns the ending, and I'm also not saying there are no problems at all. But I'm absolutely exhausted from seeing Dean's arc attacked by "Dean stans" and I'm exhausted from the cycles of Dean bashing or Cas bashing and exhausted from writing/episodes I really love being ripped to shreds, chronically. Non-stop.

It went on for four seasons in a row of non-stop hate and 4 years after spn ended I recently got a reminder it's all still out there. It's not that everyone involved was being that chronic or that hateful, but there's always an inevitable chain reaction and it brought the old hatred to the yard. I had to block more accounts. I'm just so done with it.

Anyway, this is my personal perspective. What people do with it isn't my problem. But I really needed to say it.

[hellerfanboy91]

Edvard Supernatural Guide: 4x06 Yellow Fever

One of the reasons I have a love/hate relationship with this show is episodes like this. I am very aware that television shows are essentially a trick to get the audience to watch the adverts. If a company wants to advertise a certain product at a certain demographic, they will look for shows which draw in said target audience. A television show is ultimately a marketing ploy: art comes second. Remember the market research around the end of series 12 and beginning of series 13 to find out whether the viewership would accept canonically-acknowledged bisexual Dean? They did that to see whether the viewers would stick around or whether it would draw in new viewers for advertisers to sell their products to. If the audience was averse to bisexual Dean, they might stop watching the show which would mean the advertising space would be worth less.

As such, it may well seem ridiculous that I want the show to be taken more seriously, or for it to take itself more seriously sometimes. But given the show has spent the last year and a half dealing with Dean’s suicide and trip to Hell, and the last few episodes hinting at his serious mental damage, it is galling for this to be made the butt of a joke in 4x06 Yellow Fever. Yes, the Yorkie got a giggle on first viewing, but in hindsight I have to ask: what were Dabb and Loflin thinking?

The Yorkie itself was not an issue. In context, it did make sense that a man who was savaged to death by a Hellhound (and perhaps brutalised by them in Hell, too) would be scared of a Yorkie while infected with ghost sickness. But the fact both Sam and Bobby were utterly blasé about Dean dying again, that Sam treated Dean as a stupid embarrassing idiot for checks notes being messed up by ghost sickness, and then used it to make him the butt of a joke again in the final scene made the Yorkie a shitty cherry on top of a crappy cake. All of that character development and story squandered, and not for the last time.

The worse thing though is the fact that Dean’s suicide and the reasons for him going to Hell were never properly dealt with in the entirety of the show. lmclt recently commented that never after this is it even mentioned that Dean went to Hell for Sam, much less the 20+ years of child abuse and mental damage which led him to suicide. lmclt also wrote that a big part of series three involved Sam’s refusal to listen to Dean and take him seriously (read the post here), and this feels like an extension of that. There is so much potential wasted.

A few weeks ago I read a post by XXXX which likened Dabb and Loflin’s treatment of Dean as being as in Xander in Buffy wrote a story about Angel, i.e. the unpopular nerd writing about the ‘cool’ boyfriend of the girl he fancied. If we look at episode 4x13 After-School Special, it is easy to understand why. Dabb and Loflin’s version of Dean is very much that.

To bring things back around, I stated that episodes like this are why I have such a love/hate relationship with the show. There is so much dramatic potential waiting to be capitalised upon in Dean’s experiences and his damage, but the writers seem both utterly unqualified to deal with it and as though they cannot even be bothered to try. The show of wasted opportunities.

Anyway, this is supposed to be one of the funny episodes and miserable bugger that I am, I plant my feet firmly on either side of it, squat, and spend the first few hundred words voiding my metaphorical bowels all over it. That being said, I am not quite done with the negativity yet. I finished this episode not understanding how the ghost sickness worked, whom it chose to infect and why, and what on Earth a Japanese buru buru has to do with it.

A Japanese yo-kai (the buru buru) was a strange choice because the concept of ‘ghost sickness’ is from various Athapascan cultures such as Navajo and Lakota, i.e. Native American, and not Japan. Once again, the writers choose to reach into mythologies that have nothing to do with America, even when taking an idea from a Native American culture. Whether or not Dabb & Loflin even did much research on the buruburu is debatable, since the description of it in the show and how it operates bears little resemblance to the folklore. According to theshadowlands.net:

Buruburu is the ghost of fear. It lives in the forests and graveyards.  It takes the form of a shaking old man or woman and sometime only has one eye. It will attach itself to the back of its victim sending a chill up and down the spine. The selected victim then dies of fright.

This is quite a lot different than ghost sickness, which can be described as excessive preoccupation with the dead, loss of appetite, recurrent nightmares, and fear. If you think this sounds a lot like bereavement, you are not alone. Tribes with the concept of ghost sickness used to have purification rituals as part of the mourning process to prevent ghost sickness, which can be understood as pathological grief.

Marie Yellow Horse Brave Heart of the Lakota tribe is a social worker and specialist in historical trauma1 In her article Return to the Sacred Path (2010), she discussed the idea that the outlawing and resultant disappearance of these rituals let to impaired grief, i.e. people unable to process their bereavement in a healthy way which allows them to carry on without getting stuck in unhealthy and deleterious patterns of behaviour.

There is potential here for a seriously good episode of Supernatural, not least since that description of ghost sickness, i.e. pathological grief, sounds like Dean in parts of series two. He harbours years and years of damage and trauma he has not been able to process, and an episode with a more serious tone written with more care, forethought, and research could have been brilliant. Alas, the show reached for Japanese folklore and butchered it to boot.

On the same subject, why not have Bobby able to speak Dakota, since he lives in South Dakota?

The buru buru in this episode was born out of intense fear, i.e. the fear Luther felt when he was being lynched. The buru buru infects and kills people who ‘use fear as a weapon’, and can only be killed with fear. However, if Dean uses fear as a weapon, then so too does Sam, which leaves me wondering why Sam was not infected. We can of course argue that what Dean did in Hell qualifies him for ghost-induced death in a way Sam is not, but as far as we know the sheriff is only responsible for covering up the crime, not active ‘using fear as a weapon’.

Given that, what the episode shows us is that the sickness infects those responsible for Luther’s death and those who stood in the way of justice being done. Every death caused by the sickness is related directly to Luther. The episode gives us another possibility for which Kripke has to essentially issue a clarification and apology: that the sickness infects people who are ‘dicks’. The reason Kripke had to issue his clarification is because viewers latched onto the ‘Dean is a dick’ reasoning and rioted (Allah bless you, Deangirls). For argument’s sake, do let us suppose that the ‘dick’ reasoning is valid: does Sam’s year-long betrayal of his brother with a demon not also qualify as ‘being a dick’? Prithee tell me then: Wherefore Sam’s lack of ghost sickness?

Paula’s conclusion to the mess was that the writers’ just threw ideas at the script because they could not actually think of a decent recent why Sam would not be infected. I must ultimately conclude likewise because I cannot see a logical reason for a) Dean to be infected in the first place and b) Sam to not be. Alas, for this episode one must switch his critical faculties off and just go with it.

Circling back around to Dean’s mental damage and the writers’ lack of qualification to deal with it, please consider the following eight hundred words. Dean was tortured every day for decades, so it is a wonder his mentis is more or less compos. Whether or not Dean actually remembers his time in Hell before this episode is up for debate (I fall on the side of he remembers at least some, probably most).

While I was writing my first notes for this episode three years ago, a certain book came to mind. Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine begins with an account of victims of electric shock therapy, and psychiatric shock treatment in general. It destroyed many of the victims’ minds, and they were ‘only’ subjected to shock therapy for weeks or months. Judging by that, it is beyond doubt the torture destroyed Dean’s mind at least once, likely repeated times. By Dean’s own admission in 4x10 Heaven and Hell (not 4x11 Family Remains as I mistakenly wrote a few analyses ago), his body was put back together at the end of every day to be tortured to death and destroyed the next day. It can be assumed the same happened to his mind.

Mental trauma that can result in PTSD is caused by any situation wherein the victim is exposed to life-threatening danger or extreme pain, and is unable to defend himself against it or run away. This can be things such as a car crash, military combat, being shot at, routine infant circumcision (ask me for studies), being violently assaulted, rape, or witnessing violent assault, rape and such things. What happens in these circumstances is that the brain can shut down completely to protect itself from harm. PTSD occurs when the mind is unable to recover from said trauma.

Rather than being able to archive the memory or erase it, a part of the mind is trapped in the moment when the trauma occurred. This leads to triggers, i.e. sounds, smells, sights etc associated with the event that can cause the mind to believe it is in that situation again, and goes into alert. A man frequently beaten as a child might be triggered by a woman shouting. A woman who survived a car crash might be forced to relive the memory whenever she smells exhaust fumes. A man brutally and painfully killed by a beastly canine will be triggered at the sound of a large dog barking.

This is incredibly stressful for the body and mind as it is frequently in fight-or-flight mode, or panic mode. Without help or treatment – or even regardless of those things – it can lead to, among others, angry outbursts, depression, anxiety, stomach problems, addiction problems, suicidal ideations, etc.

Trauma can also lead to dissociative identity disorder (DID), whereby the mind becomes fragmented by trauma. The mind switches off during the traumatic event, and a part of it gets fragmented from the rest. The rest of the mind may very well remember the event, but recalls it as if it happened in a film, or a story a friend told. It happened to somebody else, not to the victim. Meanwhile, the fragmented part of the mind still exists, perhaps trapped in the moment of trauma, and if a 46 year old underwent mental trauma at 13 years of age, he will essentially be carrying his 13 year old traumatised self around in his mind with him. He might know it is there, and might even be able to communicate with it. This is not two personalities in one mind, as it is often misunderstood, but two parts of the same person in the same mind, separated from each other.

This can happen over and over again in a person’s life, resulting in multiple fragments of a person’s mind existing ‘independently’ of each other. Imagine your 13 year old self, your 17 year old self, your 25 year old self, and your 37 year old self all being in the same house but in different rooms. They spend most of the time alone, but occasionally one will go into the other’s room to mess up the bedding, borrow a book, cuddle up for warmth, scold you for failing at everything you hoped to achieve, punish you for not doing the dishes, or prattle for hours and hours about how you are a disgusting, selfish person because you decided to do what you want with your own life rather than listen to your family’s wishes.

Dean’s death in 3x16No Rest for the Wickedwas enough to cause mental trauma, but his trauma did not stop there. He had decades of it. I hope that gives an idea of the seriousness of what Dean underwent. That the show uses it for laughs should not come as a surprise at this point; after all, Dean is the sidekick who is just not as important as Saint Sam. Yes, Dean looks stupid running away from a silly little dog, but that moment showed how seriously the writers do not take what happened to him. Even Bobby and Sam did not seem to care much in this episode. After his story arc was hollowed out in series three, having the resultant damage of his time in Hell used for cheap laughs is not welcome.

That said, it is always a joy to watch the actors having fun. Todd Stashwick (Dracula) spent forty minutes eating the scenery in 4x05 Monster Movie, and Jensen had a few scenes in this episode where he got to be silly, e.g. screaming at the cat...

...flirting with the deputy (whom Dean then preceded to bone, prove me wrong)...

and of course the Eye of the Tiger scene.

Dean’s diatribe of how he and Sam are crazy people also caused much amusement, not only because it was all completely true, but how fired up and fey Dean seemed. Even his voice was different in that scene.

Dean also said that he listens to the same five albums of repeat, and if anybody is still in any doubt that Dean is autistic, I dunno what to tell ya.

When people call this a funny episode, I wonder whether they are just remembering those scenes. Dean screaming at the cat has become a meme, so maybe.

I also wonder why nobody thought to investigate all the noise Dean and the sheriff were making in the hotel, and why Dean and Sam were not wearing face guards during the autopsy. I also wonder when the show will be brave enough to use a woman’s corpse for black humour rather than always taking the tired, easy route of men’s deaths. When the show encourages us to laugh as Sam getting a woman’s spleen juice squirted all over his face, I will be impressed. I will not hold my breath, though.

In case at this point in my analysis you are wondering whether I am this grumpy in real life (no, I’m worse) it is time for a last few positives before I finish another unusually short analysis. As short as it was, I enjoyed the story of Luther who was killed for being in love with the wrong woman. The circumstances are quite different, but it brought to mind the opening of Stephen King’s IT when Adrian and Don are attacked by bullies for being in a same-sex relationship (omitted from the 1990 mini-series but kept in the 2017-2019 remakes).

The early years of Supernatural made many references to King’s work, e.g. 2x02 Everybody Loves a Clown, 2x11 Playthings, as well as drawing inspiration from his novels such as the similarities of 2x04 Children Shouldn’t Play with Dead Things with Pet Semetary as well as Supernatural’s psychic children plot with the psychic children in The Shining, Doctor Sleep, and The Dark Tower. Henceforth, however, Neil Gaiman becomes a more prominent source of inspiration, and even the fact that Sam’s eyes flash yellow at the end of the episode in a manner clearly meant to bring Azazel to mind reminded me of Gaiman’s The Sandman. In The Sandman, Azazel is an amorphous shadow populated by many eyes and mouths, and sometimes the eyes are yellow.

With that, it is time once more to conclude an analysis. By the time you read this, my analysis for 4x07 It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester will be underway for publication in the third week of March.

Series 1

Series 2

Series 3

Series 4

Sundry

Paula’s analysis is available here and Cindy’s is here.

[watching-sam-and-dean-again]

I just rewatched "Last Holiday" for the second time. It’s so bad that it makes me sad for what this show used to be.

This episode exemplifies a lot of how Supernatural goes off the rails by Season 15. I know some will argue that everything after Season 5 is not worth watching, but I disagree. And then others say that it’s just the Dabb era that is unwatchable. Well ... I agree more with that take, but there are some gems even in this arc, particularly in 14 (if I ignore Nick). But, Season 15 … it’s almost heartbreakingly bad in comparison to earlier seasons. The only upside to the season as a whole is that Sam and Dean are on good terms with each other throughout most of it.

Anyway, LH is just .. so bad. First, Dean essentially acts like a man-child mixed with a cartoon character. The man is 40, and if 26 year old Dean could see him now, I think he might beat his ass just on principal. The nightdress and night cap combo is just so so stupid. They give me second-hand embarrassment for Dean AND for Jensen. Him wearing this, or something similar to this, in Scoobynatural, which is a cartoon, is very different from him wearing it in real life. How do you take him seriously after this? The best thing about him in this episode is the talk he has with Jack about how he’s trying to forgive him (for blowing up his mother), but he’s trying. It’s honest and fair.

Next, Sam is put into a sweater-vest (this offends me personally) and sent off on a date with Eilean. I find her and Sam cute as friends, but aggressively uninteresting as a couple, so I’m not overly fond of this. He gets several finger nails ripped off, instead of just one like in "A Very Supernatural Christmas" because mythical creatures like to torture him this may specifically, I guess? The reason I don’t like this "callback" is that if forces me to think of that other holiday episode which is just so much better. And that makes me think of just how dumb this one is. So dumb. Like, I’m almost angry about how dumb it is, especially in comparison to the Season 3 episode. Remember Season 3??? Back then the show knew how to be ridiculous, creepy, heartbreaking (in a good way), and heartwarming all in one episode. During Season 3, Supernatural not only still had a soul, but it was vibrant and thrumming with life. Now … not so much. Finally, Jack is there too. And he’s stressed. I don’t have strong feelings abiut him in this episode, but I don’t have negative ones about anything relating to him in the episode, either. So that’s something.

Anyway, I could rant more, but this is honestly just making me sad.

If you like "Last Holiday" that’s fine. I’m happy for you. Please feel free to let me know why you like it (if you want to). But, it’s just really not for me. It just disappoints me so much because we know how good this show can be, you know? 😞

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 93 Transcript: That's Literally Lucifer, Dude

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many, many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 11: "Sam, Interrupted," written by Andrew Dabb and Daniel Loflin, directed by James L. Conway.

C: None of these people should have careers anymore, [G laughs] I personally feel. Daniel Loflin's out at some point, right? [G: Yeah.] Like, I don't remember him. Only- Until Season 8? Well.

G: Isn't their next episode, like, fucking [overlapping] "Hammer of the Gods"? [G laughs] People will write anything!

C: No, they do "Dark Side of the Moon" first.

G: Yeah. Actually, this episode, you know how sometimes you're like, you don't know what is good and what is bad in media? [C: Sure.] I mean, like, for me, a lot of my- It's very rare that I'm like, "it's good" or "it's bad," except when, you know, we're podcasting about it, such as in Supernatural or Good Omens. Most of the time, it's like, "Did I feel a certain way watching it?" blah blah blah. That's the more, you know, that's the easier thing to respond to as a watcher of something, right? This one made me feel so much and all the feelings are so negative that, for a while, I was like, "Maybe it's not even that bad." [both laugh] Because it's like, "It made me feel so much!" but it is that bad, I think.

C: Yeah, it- I didn't enjoy it. It was a bad time. [G: Yeah.] How would we even evaluate it from a technical standpoint? Like, if the case was like, good? Like, it was, like, whatever. [laughs]

G: Yeah, like, there is a point where that's like, you can just ignore that. [laughs] Like, we have other pressing matters.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

G: The way we are gonna talk about this episode is gonna be a little bit different because, uh, I don't wanna talk about it. [both laugh]

C: Yeah. I'm not like, a huge- I don't really want to be describing every individual scene that happens either, [G: Yeah.] given that most of them are just sanist jokes.

G: Yeah, we're going to give, like, a general summary of the episode, and then we're going to talk about some things that we want to talk about, I guess. Yeah. So, what did you know about this episode before going in? There's definitely some scenes that are like, known, I think.

C: Yeah, I mean, the "boop" scene is known, but I don't think I knew it was in this episode. [G: The context of it, yeah.] Right. All I know was that it was a case in a mental hospital, and they got in by being patients, and that at some point Dean, is confronted with the fact that he's like, definitely an alcoholic.

G: Yeah. That's it?

C: Yeah, that's all I knew.

G: "Pudding!" That's like, a famous, like, gifset, I think. Or gif, I don't know.

C: What is?

G: "Pudding." Right? Like, when they said that.

C: I've never seen that.

G: Is that really? Damn.

C: What is it- What's the gifset that it's in?

G: It's not a [hard g] gifset. It's just one [soft g] gif. [C: Is it like a reaction [hard g] gif?] I don't know. Is it gif or jif? I'm so sorry. I still don't know.

C: It is either. There's a debate raging about it. The creators said it was jif, but I refuse to accept that.

G: Okay. Slay. Typical Crystal behavior, I guess. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, to me, the creators of gifs and Neil Gaiman are one and the same. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Like, there's just one where it's like, Dean going, "Pudding!" and I think it's like, I've seen it around a bit, like, outside of Supernatural. Well, let's get into the episode, I guess.

C: [sighs] How are we plot-summarying it?

G: Well, I want to actually talk about the "Then" sequence. [C: Yes.] It's like, Ellen and Jo dying is the "then" sequence. And then-

C: [laughs] It goes from that directly into "Yellow Fever."

G: Yeah, where Dean is like, "We're crazy! We're hunting? That's so crazy!" Yeah. "We're insane!"

C: Yeah. Very sudden tone shift. Yeah.

G: So I guess it's supposed to refer to the fact that they are going to go insane this episode, [laughs] I guess.

C: I think it's to talk about how Martin is meant to set up something about how [G: Ah, yeah.] hunting is harmful to your mental health and will eventually catch up with you somehow, a plotline that they don't do anything good about.

G: Yeah. Cas is prominently in this "then" sequence, and by prominently, I do mean he has one line. [C laughs] And I'm pointing that out because Crystal has called me out on it before. [both laugh]

C: I just don't think that's what prominent means.

G: He's always prominent whenever he is in the fucking show. Yeah. I don't know. There's more stuff. There's more like- Oh, about Lucifer.

C: It's Sam being angry is what it's about.

G: Which is kind of like, why are they painting Sam being angry with Lucifer as like-

C: It's Lucifer!

G: That's Lucifer, dude!

C: Like, [laughs] have you heard of a little thing called Christianity? [G: Whole religion!] Many people are mad at that guy.

G: Whole religion is reliant on being on Lucifer, I think. [C laughs] Why is Sam suddenly so special? I understand that Sam is the specialest little princess in the world, but not for this. For other things!

C: Yeah. Like, I do think that yeah, he is angry. And I think that him being, like, quick to anger and quick to revenge is a big part of who he is in Season 1, at least. [G: Yeah.] But like, it's just odd to bring it back here and then also [G: At Lucifer, specifically.] do nothing about it. Yeah, in the end, he's like, "I was mad at you and dad," like, well, yeah, because like, your dad was abusive and like, Dean, like, although he had no responsibility to you because he was also being abused, like, he didn't like, help. Like, that's a normal thing to be mad about. And he was like, "And then I was mad at Ruby," like, literally makes sense.

G: Well, she betrayed you, so. [laughs]

C: Yeah. [laughing] And he's like, "And now I'm mad at Lucifer. That's so weird!"

G: [laughing] That's literally Lucifer, dude. He's about to possess you. What's happening? [C: Yeah.] It's the same deal where they keep on bringing up Stanford as, like, an evidence of something, and it's like, well, I mean, that's a completely reasonable-

C: Yeah. He's not really betraying his family or something? Like, he went to college to be a lawyer. Whatever! [G laughs]

-

G: Yeah. Well, okay. So the episode, it starts, like, in a fucking clinic, and Dean's like, "Oh, can you fix up my brother?" And then Sam starts talking about his life, like, real life, and the doctor's like, "Wow, interesting." And Dean is like, "Yeah. And the thing is, Sam shouldn't feel guilty about all of his actions, because it was Ruby's fault! Blah blah blah!" And then, you know, the doctor's like, "Get these two in there!"

C: Sam pronounces Castiel as CAS-tiel again during this scene.

G: Yeah! Why is that?

C: I don't know. Does Jared Padalecki not know-

G: He does it before in the past, too.

C: Yeah, he does it on the phone at some point, like- [G: Casteel.] CAS-tiel. It's weird! Whatever. I guess it's better than Caschell. [laughs] Or is it?

G: Excuse me?? What do you mean it's better than Caschell, the best pronunciation of Castiel ever?

C: Caschell's fun. CAS-tiel isn't. CAS-tiel feels like he's like, I don't know. CAS-tiel feels like he's like, the CEO of something, and, like, in a bad way because I don't think there's a good way to be a CEO of something. Caschell is fun. You're right. I take back what I said.

G: Thank you. There's like, a very ominous kind of like- ominous because of how cheery she is lady who does their checkup, and like, later on she's revealed to be the wraith. Honestly, wraiths are iconic in Supernatural. Like, we'll see them. We'll see them.

C: Right. I feel like I have seen, like, the brain that's been sucked of everything like, in multiple gifs, and yeah, not just from this episode.

G: Yeah, I mean, I'm not actually sure we see a lot of the brain. We see a lot of the hand thing for sure. The spiky thing.

C: Mm-hm. Remember when she like, has a fight scene where she puts her hand spike away in order to start fighting? Like, what was that about?

G: Well, because it's sensitive. [C: Oh, okay.] And it's just for piercing. It's not, like, a slasher thing, which is [C: Alright.]- So she puts it out when she's about to pierce Dean's head, right? And she extends it when it doesn't reach him. So true! [C: Yeah.] It's so fun, though, like, really, when he like, snapped it off, like, I thought that was fun. [C: That was fun, yeah.] Yeah. I don't know. They go in.

C: She infects them with [G: With something.] what they call "crazy" later by doing a prostate exam.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Inside, like, they meet Martin, and I do want to linger on Martin a bit. He is- like, they're very vague on his backstory. All I know is something-

C: Yeah, he and John were hunting buddies.

G: Yeah. And they were in Albuquerque. Well, he was in Albuquerque. Where is Albuquerque?

C: I think it's in New Mexico. I think there's an airport there.

G: Uh-huh. No, yeah. I've definitely heard that place before. So that means it's- but I've heard many places in the United States, so that could mean anything, honestly. They were in Albuquerque, something went wrong, and then he checked himself into this institution.

C: Right, so he's been here for, like, [G: A while, yeah.] at least... three years? Is that how math works? Probably four, 'cause, I'm assuming that he and John were hunting, and that ended before Season 1. So five years? That's how math works.

G: It's been a while, yeah. [C: Yeah.] The way he is portrayed is, he is clear-headed, but when hunting gets brought up, he gets jittery about it. [C: Yeah.] There's a scene later where they're trying to convince him to hunt with them, and he was like, "No, I don't want to. Like, it's bad for me. I don't want to," and this is-

C: Yeah, he mentions that seeing dead bodies specifically is like, difficult for him.

G: Yeah. This is painted as something that is so unreasonable and annoying. [C: Yeah.] And Sam did this-

C: They're like, "What? You're such a coward!" But, I mean, they also called Sam a coward for that.

G: Ugh. Oh my god! [C laughs] But like, they painted forcing Sam back as, like, a bad thing, right? [C: Did they?] It had to be something Sam chose for himself.

C: I mean, but it's like, he chose it because all the people trying to get him to come back were right.

G: Yeah, okay, yeah. So this just like, Supernatural's perspective on the thing, I guess.

C: Yeah, the whole, like, "We just need everybody on board, and if you're like, capable of hunting, then you have to, or else you're evil," or I don't even know what they're going for. But yeah. [G: Yeah.] He is portrayed as a coward for having trauma around dead bodies. [laughs]

G: Well, the murders have been- Oh, we see the murder, actually, at the beginning of this obviously.

C: At the beginning, yeah. There's a monster that seems to come out of the grates, is the POV of the woman whose death we see at the beginning, and then it comes out at night, and then people are found dead in the morning, seemingly by suicide. [G: Yeah.] And this happened to a few people so far, [G: Yeah.] but the concerns of the patients regarding this have been wholly dismissed by everyone on the staff.

G: Yeah. And, yeah. [C: It's so weird.] I mean, they are hammering in the like, "These doctors are terrible," or this one doctor, I guess, is kind of shitty.

C: But what seems to be hammered home is just that like, he's wrong because he's wrong about the monster not existing, when it's like, I think that the issue is that him being this dismissive and like, smirking at Dean when, like, he thinks that Dean is, like, sane, and Sam isn't like, while Sam's talking about the apocalypse- Like, he's just a bad doctor, even if the monster wasn't real.

G: And like, the way he talks to Sam- he is not a monster when that was happening, right? He's never the monster. [C: Yeah, he's never the monster.] When he was like, threatening Sam that like, [laughs] "If you cause trouble, we will put you in maximum security person equivalent of a mental hospital." It's like, well. [C: Well.] It's- I don't know. Shitty guy.

-

C: Sam gets taken away to group therapy away from Dean because the doctor calls them "dangerously codependent," which is true, I think. [G: Yeah.] One of the patients is trying to talk about the monster, but he gets shut down by the doctor. I think it was just like, the doctor sucks because the guy just like, says a few times that there's a monster, and then the doctor is like, "I'm gonna call the orderlies on you," like, [G: Yeah.] "Shut the fuck up!" Yeah. So just a lot of him just being a dick, but it only being portrayed as wrong because he's wrong about the monster. And it's just like, okay, like, you thought that these were suicides. If, like, what? At least- what? Three, four patients in the last week in like, your mental hospital where you're supposed to be making them feel better about their lives [G laughs] kill themselves, like, maybe you need to re-examine how you're running things around here.

G: And also just, like, from, you know, if he's not aware that there is actually a monster. If one of your patients is, like, "Somebody killed four other people and painted it as a suicide, and they're gonna come for me next," [laughs] like, I think you should do something about it!

C: Yeah. [laughing] Like, telling that guy "Shut the fuck up" is like, not the way, bro.

G: It's like, you know. I understand that, you know, especially here- Like, I don't know about the United States. I'm sure it's also horrible, but especially here, it's like, there's so few resources, so few whatever. I mean, there's an uptick right now of, like, people who are graduating as psychologists. Fun, I guess. But there are so few resources and so few facilities here to deal with mental health patients, and especially, like, the inpatient type of dealing with patients, right? So I think a part of me, there is, like, a sort of like, "You cannot demand-" Well, not that you cannot demand better, but like, I understand that, like, they're understaffed, they're under-facilitated, blah blah blah blah blah. And that is, like, an argument I hear around a lot, and, I don't know. Like, a lot of my perspective is, uh, I don't give a shit? [C: Yeah.] I mean, obviously, it's like, true, and that does affect the kind of service that you get for these people. I think part of me is also like, "Well, somebody has to advocate for, like, the other side," I guess, [C: Yeah.] and that's the stance I have taken on in my life so far. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, so, I don't know. Just putting it out there, I guess.

C: Yeah. Dean meets a doctor who is like- I don't know how to describe her.

G: Who is like, [laughs] a hot woman.

C: Yeah, she's like, a hot woman. And like-

G: She's cool and everything.

C: He's tried to flirt with the nurse earlier and also this doctor, but neither of them act on it, which is good, but also like, she's a hallucination, and the nurse is a wraith, so, yeah. [both laugh] She's hot. She's cool. She seems to be like, good at getting to the bottom of him without like, being dismissive in like, the way the other doctor is, and they, like, trade questions back and forth where she asks about him, and he asks about the case, and later, it's like, of course, the only person on staff who seems slightly competent isn't an actual employee. [G: Yeah.] We learn a few things about Dean, which ,I guess, first, that he has about 50 drinks a week, and second, that he's never been in a relationship for longer than two months. Which- Cassie was one month? Was that what their backstory was?

G: Perhaps so. I'm not sure. [C: Yeah.] It is kind of crazy that two months is long-term.

C: Mm. What would you define as a long-term relationship?

G: I don't know. Like, maybe six months?

C: Okay. Yeah, for me, I either alternate between three months or one year. [G laughs] Like, I don't really know. But yeah.

G: I think by two months, you're still, like, in the [C: Honeymoon phase?] growing pains age, or like, you know, honeymoon stage, I don't know. Depends, I guess. [C: Yeah.] I feel like if you know each other before you get together, the 2 months is the growing pains stage 'cause you're trying to readjust, recalibrate, etc. If you just meet, that's the honeymoon stage. So there we go.

C: So after this we meet a character named Wendy, and [laughs] it's horrible that she exists. [G: Yeah.] Her role is to play, like, a red herring in the case because basically, like, the trajectory of this is that Sam and Dean both realize that, like- Or at least Dean's having hallucinations. Sam- What's Sam's thing? Is he also having hallucinations?

G: I mean, yeah, later on.

C: Yeah, I forgot. Okay.

G: He punches, like, people.

C: Right, the air. Yes. So Sam and Dean are both having hallucinations, and, like, other symptoms of mental illness later, and they realize that the wraith who they're hunting must be infecting them in order to make them, as they say, "crazy." So like, and they think that the infection happens through touch or saliva or something. So the point of Wendy is for them to think briefly that she's the wraith. However, the extent of her character is that she shows up in the hallway with no warning and makes out with Dean, and she's like, a hot woman. And then later she does the same thing with Sam. And, like, Dean's into it, but Sam tells him that he shouldn't pursue that because- the reasoning seems to be that Wendy can't meaningfully consent, which I don't think is true. So yeah, like, all of her scenes are showing up to make out with each of them one time each, and then being found dead in her room. [G: Yeah.] So that's her. Great.

G: She lives, though.

C: Yeah, as far as we're aware. The guy who was talking in group ends up being the next one to die. Sam and Dean do an autopsy and find out that his brain seems like, completely, like, black and sucked dry and calcified or whatever. [G: Yeah.] Okay, they almost get caught by the nurse.

G: And this is when the pudding stuff happens, [laughs] like, this is when the pudding gif is done. So yeah.

C: They talk with Martin and figure out that it's a wraith and that, you know, they get the right weapon for it eventually. [G: It's silvah.] It's silver, and you can figure out which creature is a wraith by checking in the mirror. They start discussing here why the wraith might have set up camp here, and their reasoning is just that, like, it makes sense. It's just that everyone here is institutionalized, so like, [G: People won't believe them, yeah.] they can't escape well, and also, people won't believe them about seeing a monster. However, later, when the wraith herself is explaining what's going on, her reasoning is completely-

G: She said, "It's yummy!"

C: Yeah, she keeps saying that that "crazy brains" taste the best because they have a lot of dopamine in then. Like, go find a jogger post-jog. Like, what are you talking about? [both laugh] I think, just the the way that this is presented later is very- The episode just uses the word "crazy" a lot [G: Yeah.] as their only descriptor of any mental illness. Like, they don't talk about like, anything specific except for, like, when the doctor mentions that Dean is schizophrenic. And like, the point, is just to like, draw this very clear line between like, "people who are sane" and "people who are crazy," [G: Yeah.] and "crazy" just means, like, anything that seems slightly out of like, the bounds of neurotypical behavior, and like, the whole, like, "crazy brains taste special" thing is just very- like, there are like-

G: There are also differences.

C: - some differences-

G: I would say there are many differences!

C: Oh, no, I meant- I was starting with like, "Yes, there's some difference in, like, chemical makeup like, if you have certain disorders," but like, the way that they flatten it and like, turn it into such a [G: They're all one and the same, yeah.] stark binary that's like- Yeah, it's all one in the same. Like, they mix stuff like Sam and Dean hallucinating with like, Dean, for one brief scene, for a joke, like, not wanting to step on the cracks on the tiles as like a "Haha! Isn't this a well known OCD thing?" Like, they're just throwing everything together without any thought to like, actual people who have mental disorders.

G: Yeah. I mean like, the whole point- Like, you know, later on, Dean is like, "Oh, I mean, at some point, we were probably gonna go crazy, me and Sam, but it's happening at the same time, so that means it's being caused by something else." So like, they're- One, they do refer to themselves in this moment as "going insane" or "crazy" or whatever. Two, there is an acknowledgement that this is a probable part of their future. [C: Right.] And yet, like, no aspect of the episode attempts to treat mental illness as like- with any complexity. [C: Right.] And mentally ill people as people. Like, nothing. I guess they- like, they attempt a little bit with Martin, I guess, and then fail completely. Maybe they don't even attempt. [laughs] I'm not sure. Like, it's just- It's so- This is like, the part of the episode that really upset me. [C: Right.] You're going to do an episode inside a mental hospital and then just, like, make fun of everyone and be like, "Oh, we're not like them," which is the whole point of the episode, I guess. "And if you do this, you're gonna be just like them, and that's so, so, so, so bad." And that's the point. [C: Yep.] Ugh! I know they're going to have mental hospital episodes in the future as well. I am curious into how they are going to do that.

C: The Kaia one or-? That was in rehab.

G: Sam was really in "Born-Again Identity" or- not "Born Again." "Born Again Identity." [laughs] I'm not sure.

C: Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, "The Born-Again Identity," I think.

G: "Born First"? No. It's not "Born Again."

C: I think it's "Born Again." Why wouldn't it be "Born-Again"?

G: I don't know. What does the word born-again mean for you? Is it also a religion?

C: Yeah, I mean, it's a religion thing. [G: Okay.] It's called "The Born-Again Identity."

G: Okay, [laughs] slay.

C: I think it's 'cause they find Cas again, right?

G: No, Sam is also happening. Sam is also in the episode.

C: No, I'm saying that it's probably called that because they find Cas again [G: Yeah, yeah, yeah.], and it's a play on- I think there's a movie or something called The Bourne Identity [G: Yeah.] where Bourne is like, a last name, B-O-U-R-N-E.

G: Yeah. Jason Bourne. They filmed in Manila. [C: Oh!] Yeah.

C: How- Do you know anything else about that movie?

G: Yeah, I watched it, I guess.

C: Oh. [laughs] How was it?

G: I don't know. They're jumping around, doing stuff. [C laughs] [C: Cool.] It's a fucking action movie. What do you want me to say?

C: [laughs] I don't know anything about it. I assumed it would have something to do with the plot of the episode regarding, like, amnesia or mental health, but I guess not.

G: No, I think it's just a pun. I think it's just a pun.

C: Okay. What's the identity in the action movie?

G: Him. He's identifying as Jason Bourne. [both laugh] I don't know. [both laughing] Oh, the movie that was filmed in the Philippines is The Bourne Legacy, so. [C: Okay.] It's a part of the Bourne series, which includes The Bourne Identity.

C: Okay. Well, anyway. Speaking of Sam, what seems to be the attempted beginning emotional core of the episode is that Sam tells Dean that he's worried about him because he hasn't been right since Jo and Ellen's deaths. [G: Yeah.] First off, they were Sam's friends, too. [G: Yeah.] Second, do they do anything with that?

G: Not at all. They don't ever acknowledge it, ever. I think, like, at the end, when Dean was like, "You gotta suck it up."

C: Right, "You have to repress all of your feelings." Okay, that was supposed to come back to that? Okay. So that was the first attempt at emotional core. Not really working. Second attempt at emotional core is that "Sam is angry at Lucifer, and that's wrong." We already talked about that.

G: So stupid, yeah.

C: Stupid, didn't work. Third, they seemed to be setting up something regarding Martin, and then they don't do anything. [G: Yeah.] The next scene is just that Dean sees Dr. Fuller, who's like, the male doctor who was leading group, in the mirror, and he appears to be a wraith. So when he and Sam and Martin meet back up, we have that scene that we talked about earlier, where they're like, "Martin, you should hunt with us." and he's like, "No, I can't," and is clearly shaken. And Sam says, "We know what happened in Albuquerque." And Martin stops and goes, "You don't know the half of it." And then we never learn what happened in Albuquerque! Not a single half of it. What was that about? [laughs] What was the woman of that exchange?

G: I don't know. Just to be ominous and mysterious.

C: Did something happen during filming? Like, it just feels like there's so much that got cut because there's so many dangling threads. [G: Yeah. I don't know.] Like, was there nothing planned for this? 'Cause there's a clear setup for, like, whatever happened in Albuquerque to be revealed at some point, and I don't think it would necessarily make the episode that much better [G: Stronger, yeah.] or stronger or anything, 'cause like, I feel like the point that they'd be making is just that like, "Oh, like, Martin's in here for a good reason. Like, he got trauma from, like, being brave and cool, unlike these people, who are just craazy." So like, I don't think it would improve the episode much, but like, it did seem like they were trying to work towards something [G: Yeah.] with Martin and his backstory.

C: Because they mentioned it prior to this, also! [C: Yes.] Like, they also say, like, "Oh. After Albuquerque-"

C: Yeah, "He hasn't been the same since Albuquerque." Like, what happened, bro? [laughs]

G: And if they're trying to, you know, make that parallel of like, "Just like Ellen and Jo" and "Dean hasn't been the same since then," it's like, well, try to do something about it.

C: Yeah, try a little harder. What's happening here?

-

G: So they go for the attack. Martin is actually there, or he shows up later, and basically, like, Sam attacks the doctor, and he slices him on the arm with a silver something, and he doesn't disintegrate completely. And then, like, there are two orderlies who come in, and Sam, like, demolishes these two. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] You know, he goes for the kill, except Martin stops him because that's not the wraith. And then Sam gets sedated, I suppose, and then they bring him back to a room where, I don't know. He's there, I guess. Dean comes in, and they talk. I forgot, actually, what this conversation is. What is it about?

C: Just how Dean realizes that he was wrong about the wraith being Dr. Fuller, so he's worried that he's like, going crazy. And then Sam says that, "You're my brother, and I still love you," but he's also like, very drugged up the whole time. And the general scene is just played for humor, 'cause Sam's like, high. [G: Yeah.] And like, the premise of- Sam got checked in- Like, Dean in the intake appointment is talking about how like, "It wasn't Sam's fault that he started the apocalypse. He was just high." And like, he's currently in a situation where he's been forcibly drugged, [G: Yeah.] and tied to a bed in a way that's quite similar to the panic room in Season 4, I would say, and then there's another scene where he's in solitary where it feels even more similar to that, and they don't do anything with that? [G: Yeah.] It just seems like a very obvious parallel that you would discuss in some way.

G: Yeah, just because "It's funny! It's for comedy!" Oh my god. Like, later on, the scene that you pointed out, of like, Dean stepping on the tiles-

C: Trying to avoid stepping on the tiles, yeah.

G: Like, that was also played comedically, and like, I don't know. A bit of me was like, maybe Jensen Ackles is just missing the tone completely. But also, there was a director for this episode, and they could have directed it properly.

C: Yeah, I think it was meant to be played comedically.

G: So it was intentional that it was like this. And it was so frustrating. So frustrating. Because, like, you know, there's the ableist aspect of it, but also, like, story-wise, you could be doing something interesting here. Like, Sam and Dean are interesting characters, and [C: Some claim this.] especially, like, as you said, Sam's here. It is an interesting situation that he has been put, and instead of doing anything with it, it's just silly goofy time. And it's like, "Well, don't do it like that."

C: Right. "Isn't it funny how mental hospital patients get forcibly sedated because then they talk funny and boop their brothers' noses!" Like, no! [laughs] Incorrect. So that's a scene that is annoying.

-

G: So Dean starts, you know. He's walking the hallway. The lady doctor, like, stops him and to him, and then she starts talking a bit more with knowledge of what's happening. And Dean is like, "Oh, what are you really? What are you? What are you?" And then this, I suppose, janitor stops them, goes like, "Hey, stop all that." and points out that Dean is actually talking to nobody. And Dean, like, you know, does freak out about this because like, "Oh my god, I am actually going crazy."

C: Right. And also the the bent of the conversation with the doctor is just that, like, Dean feels responsible for everybody in the world and that like, he needs to save everybody, and that's like, a bunch of, like, pressure and guilt, blah blah blah, that he's putting himself under. I just really don't buy [laughs] any storyline like this in Supernatural where it's like, "You're so guilty about all the people you can't save," etc, etc 'cause it's like, so many people die on their cases while they're fucking around elsewhere, and [laughs] they don't feel bad about it. [G: Yeah.] Like, it's just specific people that they feel bad about dying. But whatever. I guess that's what they're going for.

We have the scene where Dr. Fuller comes in, and, as we've mentioned, threatens to put Sam in "a facility that is equipped to handle violent patients" if he has another outburst.

G: And then it's like, "And there, they won't be as niceys."

C: Yeah. "As me."

G: And also, the doctor was like, "I don't think you can get better because you're so angy!" [both laugh]

C: Like, you're a terrible doctor! Yeah, he goes like, "I think that, like, your delusions around monsters, like, that's fine. People learn to live with that. But like, your anger issues are incurable!" And it's like, well, at least you said that first sentence. But can we circle back to that second sentence? What? He specifically says that Sam- the look in Sam's eyes was like, "not human."

G: My god! [C: Fire- who? Fire this guy!] And this is just a dude! He's not even a monster!

C: Yeah, yeah. And like, the point is, like, the themes and motifs. But like, if you're setting something inside a mental hospital like, maybe you should think about what is like, [laughs] appropriate for the staff to be saying or doing. And like, if it's not appropriate, then, like, probably they should just be the monster. Or- it's not- Okay. Like, portrayal of, like, shitty staff at a mental hospital is like [both] is fine because, like, that is true. But like, it's the way that it's treated like this is like, [G: Yeah.] an okay way for him to talk to a patient, and like, in fact, good for him to tell Sam this so that he can come to realizations and change as a person. Like, that's the issue.

G: Yeah, like, I mean, this is why, like, you know, for a while, I was like, "Oh, I feel like shit. It must be an okay episode." Because, like, yeah, it's supposed to make you feel like shit. But I don't know, the specifics of how they do it-

C: Like, it' not really supposed to make you feel like shit, is the thing. Like, I think it's supposed to be mostly a lighthearted episode. [laughs]

G: Crazy! I don't know. Let's check reviews later. Let's check the reviews later. [C: Yeah.] Perhaps people have the same sentiment as we do.

C: Right. It's like, just the- We have "Asylum" in Season 1, and like, that one, like, the horror is around patient abuse, and like, the twist is like, the patients, when they killed that doctor, they were acting reasonably as a result of him, like, doing certain experiments to make them angrier and stuff. Like, the horror is tied into the mistreatment. Whereas here, like, the horror is completely separate. They suggest that, like, the structure of a mental hospital makes it so that it's easier to abuse and prey on patients, and then, like, the wraith shows up and completely nixes that. And then, like, the places where we see mistreatment, like, of Sam, like, that's not part of the horror. It's just like, "What an annoying obstacle!" But like, "This obstacle is only wrong because monsters are real, and we need to hunt it," and like, there's no feeling that like, if you did this to someone who wasn't Sam, that it would be wrong. Like, you know what I mean? [G: Yeah.] So yeah, that's the main bent of the episode that gets me riled up.

G: Yeah. Sam was allowed to go out. And also, the fact that they were like, "It's so bad that Sam beat up those orderlies," and the episode like, agrees with it, doesn't it? Like, the episode agrees with the whole like, "Sam is so sick in the head for being so mad. He beat up those orderlies." It's like, they've done that-

C: Yeah, while he was trying to kill someone he thought was a monster, yeah.

G: - many, many, many times. [C: Plenty.] And also, like, he's a giant man! [both laugh] He just moves around. He's so big.

C: Yeah. He takes a step, like, all your bones break. [laughs]

G: [laughs] I mean, I think that's a mean thing to say about Sam Winchester. No, but like, you understand what I mean, right? To paint it as "Sam is so monstrous." Why? Because he's big and, like, has years and years and years of combat experience? [laughs] I think this is completely normal for Sam Winchester. I don't know. It's just so stupid.

C: Yeah. I mean the funniest "Sam is too angry" moment is when he's trying to lockpick a door, and Dean's like, "Come on, hurry up," and then, like, he turns around, and the camera really focuses on his face when he tells- What does he tell Dean? Like, "Shut up"?

G: "Shut up" or something, yeah.

C: Yeah, and it's like, "Oh my god, Sam's so angry and mean in the moment," and it's like, all of us wished we could tell Dean to shut the fuck up.

G: Exactly. And then, I don't know. Sam, like, starts walking down, but when he gets there, Dean, like, tells him, like, I don't know. "You're actually a monster, and it's not about Ruby. It's you." And then people start beating him up, and then he fights back, and he starts, you know, punching around. And then as we go, we see that it's actually normal and a hallucination, and Sam gets taken away, and Dean is, like, in the corner. And they do, like, the- you know, like, the thing that they do with like, when they're trying to portray someone as losing their mind where they're like, twiddling their thumbs or something? [C: Right.] That's how Dean is being played right now. [C: Right.]

-

G: So Dean goes in to talk to Martin about it. And it's like, this scene where he keeps on being distracted from talking. But basically he's like, "Oh, it must be Wendy's fault." and also, "I don't know. Something's happening."

C: One interesting thing is that he thinks that- at one moment, he wonders if it's the ghost of John that's making [G: Yeah.] his brain act up. Which, like, that's fascinating. I don't think they meant anything by it in the episode besides, like, "What a funny line," but it's like- I don't- Why would Dean think that? What does he think John would want? What would John gain by doing this? Why does he think John's angry at him?

G: They out. The tiles thing happens here. Immediately, a woman screams, and then Dean just completely abandons this compulsion because the bit is done. The joke is already delivered, so it doesn't matter anymore.

C: Yup. Wendy's there with like, slit wrists, and the nurse is standing over her with, like, her wraith face, and like, [G: Her fingy.] her wraith finger thing. There's like, a spike that comes out of her wrist. And there's like, a fight scene, and the wraith heads out of the room and calls on two orderlies to go to Wendy's room, to like-

G: Subdue Martin.

C: To fight, to subdue Dean and Martin. And Martin basically offers to help hold them back and also look after Wendy as Dean goes after the wraith.

G: Yeah, 'cause Wendy is still breathing, like, she's still alive. [C: Yes.] And when the orderlies come in, Martin is standing over her, so that's- you know.

C: Yeah, like, it's going to look bad.

G: Really bad, yeah.

C: Yeah, though, I mean- it seems. Yeah, it's possible that they might end up blaming him for the deaths of all the other patients. He also attacks the two orderlies, which is like, something that they will absolutely punish him for in some way, and that is the last we see of him [G: Yeah.] for the entire episode. When they're escaping, they do not try to get him out, [G: Yeah.] despite knowing for sure that he's going to be punished severely.

G: Yeah, when they were running out, I was, like, looking at my screen, going like, "Go back!" [C: Because Martin, yeah.] because Martin is still there. And when Sam stops, I was like, "He's stopping because he's gonna go back in or he's gonna say, 'Hey, we should get Martin' or something." But no, he doesn't. They don't give a shit. And like, the only mention of him after this episode is for Dean to be like, "You don't want to end up like him, do you?" It's so horrible!

C: He's a much nicer and more pleasant person to be around than either of you. [laughs] I would rather end up "like Martin" than either of you. What are you even talking about?

G: My god. It's such a big- To me, like, okay, fine. The Winchesters think crazy people are not people. Whatever. They have been long established as very loyal to the hunter pack [C: Yeah.], very loyal to all the people who have helped them or John in the past. Martin threw himself at these orderlies so that Dean can go and save Sam, and is like, taking the fall for it, basically. And like, it is not, like, painted as anything that they are to be grateful for, like, at all. [C: Yeah.] Like, okay, fine. Leave him there. I don't know. Whatever. It's just like, so ungrateful! It's because they don't view him as part of the pack anymore, as part of the hunter pack anymore. Like, they just think he's like, a pathetic loser, I guess.

C: I guess. Even though he did overcome, like, his fears or whatever to help you and everything [G: Yeah.], so like, the main reason you thought he was a loser or whatever is gone. But I guess the actual main reason is that he's mentally ill, so that will never change in your minds. Great.

G: Yeah. And it's like, of course it's going to bring up negative feelings, like, the idea that like, "Oh, we have, like, somebody who's part of the community or part of the family or whatever, but like, it's so embarrassing! They're mentally ill!" And it's like, my god, man! Because that is how it is portrayed, right? Like, "You don't want to be like Martin because Martin's like, embarrassing" and whatever. [C: Yeah.] And in a way, they're using that mindset- Not "in a way." Like, they are using that mindset to justify leaving him behind. He's either gonna go to that maximum facility whatever, yeah, that the doctor was talking about, or to prison. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, you're just going to leave him in there? My god. I mean, the Winchesters-

C: There seems to be just the idea that, like, "We can't break him out because, like, the 'real world' needs to be like, kept away from him." Like, "he can't handle it," or like- I don't know. "He could be a danger to the outside-" I don't know. But there is just a "He can't exist outside of this facility, so like, if that means that he's gonna end up in prison or, like, in like, a maximum security facility that probably abuses its patients like crazy, then like, yeah. Whatever. We can't put him in the outside world!" Like, you're- No. Incorrect. The end.

G: Yeah. So horrible.

C: Yeah. Horrible. He checked himself in, too!

G: Yeah. He was not- I don't think we are to believe that he was causing any trouble for anyone before he checked himself in.

C: Yeah. And even if he didn't, like, they shouldn't have left him behind. But it'd be like, "Maybe we need to discuss, like, if there's other treatment that we want to get him under a new identity" or whatever. But yeah.

G: It's just, none of these people are treated like people. Martin is the only one we actually talked to. Wendy, not particularly. [C: Yeah.] And those are the only two people aside- I guess also the person who was like, "I saw it. I saw it." That's the person we see. It's just, my god.

-

C: The wraith enters Sam's room. He's been put in like, solitary and a padded room, and like, tied to a bed. And she starts trying to feed on him. And this is when she says that "crazy brains taste better because of all the hormones and chemicals in them." She says, "And the crazier they are, the better they taste."

G: What the fuck is the metric here?

C: What does that mean? [laughs] [G: Slay.] Yeah. What does that mean? Dean comes in to try to defend Sam, and there's a fight sequence where he defeats her by- She thinks she has him, and she's going to feed on him, so her spike comes out, but then he breaks it off, she starts bleeding a lot from it, and then he kills her. But like, her body, like, doesn't change. She still looks like a human nurse.

G: Yeah. And also, she doesn't disintegrate. She's just on the floor.

C: Right. So I was almost waiting for a twist where it was like, "It wasn't even her." But no, it was her. But like, nothing happens to her body, I guess. And then they run out. I guess it's possible that most of the deaths- Well, not all of them can be blamed on Sam and Dean, because most of them happened before they got here. But it's possible that since they escaped, and it's clear that like, they killed this nurse, that Martin will only be blamed for attacking the two orderlies? [G: Yeah.] I don't know. I also don't know what the camera situation is in this mental hospital, so, yeah.

G: I mean, you know, this wraith got around, so [C: That's true.] probably not that good.

C: Yeah, probably not that good.

G: I mean, she was attacking inside rooms, and they shouldn't have inside rooms, right?

C: I don't know what the norm [G: Law, yeah.] is around that, yeah. But yeah, so they escape, and they have a final conversation where Sam's like, "The wraith was right!" And Dean's like, "No, it's fine, and also I need twelve drinks," which I think is supposed to be a continuation of the like, "He does have a substance abuse problem regarding alcohol, but we're not going to do anything about it." But yeah, you know, Sam's just like, "I have anger problems, 'cause I was mad at John, Lilith, and Lucifer." [laughs] I think all reasonable people to be angry at.

G: I understand Sam's, you know, "I'm mad at everything." Like yeah, that is a problem. Like, being mad is not a pleasant feeling, [laughs] so if you're mad all the time, like, that's not good.

C: Yeah. If his point is like, "Being angry all the time, like, decreases my quality of life, or like, makes my judgment worse in like, important situations," like fine. Okay. But I feel like all he's going off of was the doctor being like, "You'll never go get over this, and also, you didn't look human when you were angy!" Like, that doesn't mean anything.

G: Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to diminish, like, the anguish of having anger issues. [C: Right.] It's just that the way Supernatural does it is so fucking stupid. [C laughs] Everything they do is so stupid! What if Andrew Dabb and Andrew Loflin are terrible writers? [C laughs] We have considered this multiple times, and it's true, but, [C: Yeah, they are.] let's consider it again.

C: Consider it true.

G: Ugh, and then "Hammer of the Fucking Gods." Oh my god!

C: Yeah. Yeah. [G: Well.] Yeah, Dean tells him like, "It doesn't matter." Like, he goes, "What are you gonna do? You gonna take a leave of absence? You gonna say yes to Lucifer?" The first one, leave of absence, is that just like, Sam quitting hunting as he did earlier? [G: Yeah.] Okay, so he's like, "Well, sorry about your anger issues. But since you're not gonna say yes to Lucifer or quit hunting, you just have to take all that crap and bury it so that we don't end up like Martin." This is truly the season of Dean, giving absolutely shit mental health advice. Remember when he told Bobby, "If you ever bring up being suicidal again, like, I hate you" [laughs] or whatever? [G: My god.] And it's like, I get why this is like- You're in survival mode, it's the apocalypse, whatever whatever. Like, the people watching this episode are usually not in survival mode during the apocalypse. [laughs] Like, you have to keep that in mind when you're having Dean dish out the world's worst advice. [laughs] But yeah, and then they they drive away, leaving Martin behind to face the horrors. The end!

G: Yeah, well. [C: Bad.] What did we think about this episode? Multiple terrible things in many layers, yeah.

C: Yeah. I have nothing but complaints about it, but I have already said all of them.

-

G: Best Line/Worst Line? [laughs] [C: Ah!] Why have we trapped ourselves to saying a Best Line for any, honestly, is the question.

C: I think I found the initial scene where they're just talking to Dr. Fuller and trying to get into the hospital by talking about their live straightforwardly, I feel like I did find that a bit amusing.

G: You know, when Dean does the whistle and then twirls his fingers, like, "crazy!" I was like, [laughs] "That is something Dean Winchester would do." So yeah.

C: Yeah, it is something Dean Winchester would do.

G: Worst line, I think, uh, everything? I don't know.

C: Yeah, I think all of them.

G: I really do hate when Dean goes like, "You're gonna bury it, you're gonna forget about it, because that's how we keep going, that's how we don't end up like Martin." [C: Yeah.] Hate it!

C: Shut the fuck up, Dean.

G: Writer sins? Spread those sheets.

C: They've managed to mostly dodge our three main columns, but there is misogyny in the form of Wendy.

G: Yeah, I think that's it. 2? 'Cause, I mean, she does show up 2 times.

C: It's true. [laughs] 1 point per time.

G: Racism and homophobia is a 0. W have to put a fucking- Didn't we have an episode where we put like, honorary column?

C: Yeah, I think "When the Levee Breaks." Yeah, we just put +5 ableism in a column that did not have a header.

G: You know what? This also-

C: +10. [laughs] Let's just go beyond-

G: But we have a 1-5 rating! We have a 1-5 rating. We have to respect the fucking rating.

C: Okay, yeah. Let's respect the fucking rating.

Alright. IMDb. I don't think this is particularly enjoyed by the populace.

G: I don't know. I hope not. I would say, perhaps, this is an 8.3.

C: Okay, I'm looking at how fallen idols got a 7.9. And that was a lot of Paris Hilton hate, so I'm gonna go 8.0.

G: Okay, let's check. [C: Okay.] Hm. It's an 8.5.

C: Oh. Well, I don't like that.

G: Yeah, they think it's funny. [C: Okay.] This one is disappointed with the episode. [C: Because of the ableism?] There was a break before this one. "Storyline was ill-conceived, well played out, a few weak attempts of humor."

C: "I love how the script writers choose an attractive woman as Dean's antagonist, the reversal of fortunes where Dean uses his looks and personality on women." Sure. [G laughs]

G: Diversity win. They literally said diversity win.

C: Yeah. And like, she wasn't even a real woman. Like, he made her up, so like, she was a man in some ways.

G: No, the wraith!

C: I guess the- Oh, the wraith being the main antagonist. I thought they were talking about the doctor, 'cause the wraith was like, both of their antagonists. The doctor was Dean-specific, but whatever. I guess they were being Dean-centric.

G: I mean, that’s it, really for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 12: "Swap Meat"! Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: At least Sam is gonna call a teenager a virgin. I don't think it'll be that funny. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] Well, follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[dustydreamsanddirtyscars]

I haven’t posted anything in ages...

...but given this is the very last season of SPN I sat down to watch the first two episodes of the finale season and well, it’s never been a secret that I absolutely despise Dabb’s showrunning - it really has been showruining if we’re being honest here - but what these two episodes confirmed to me is that there seems to be not a single capable writer left on the team and well, Dabb surely isn’t a stellar example or role model in that regard (seriously, it will never not absolutely baffle me that Dabb wrote some of my favourite episodes during Carver era when I’m comparing them to his work right now).

Anyway, I just feel sad. I have felt saddened beyond belief, betrayed and enraged throughout pretty much all of Dabb’s run and even stopped watching altogether because he managed to turn the show into a bad parody of itself. But I was nursing this tiny little bit of hope that maybe for this final season Dabb & Co. would get a grip and give the characters, the actors and yes, also the fans (though of course tastes differ and that’s cool - objectively speaking though these last seasons have been painfully bad in terms of writing) what they deserve. A well written farewell. Save to say that’s apparently off the table judging from these two episodes.

I haven’t felt angry about anything relating to SPN for a while, because well, I fell out of love with the show due to poor quality in writing and showrunning but stuck around because I freaking loved the characters, loved DEAN and always will, but dear would this show have deserved better, would have Dean deserved better, would have Jensen and Jared and all the actors who have been part of the show throughout the years deserved better. It’s a tragedy. And people who have been following me on here for a while and remember the times when I wrote countless metas each week, because the show was just so damn good, know that I love me some tragedy, but not like this. Not this way. I am in mourning for a show and a cast that would have deserved a final season that is deep, that is meaningful, that is atmospheric and emotional and not bland and washed out and just painful to watch because you can realize that half the people on screen also seem to feel kind of embarrassed that this is how it ends.

I know this will not be received well by many people - to be honest, I don’t care. I am just beyond saddened and sorry for an actor like Jensen having to suffer through the worst writing this show has seen in all it’s time in the final season. I dearly hope that maybe in the end by some miracle they’ll manage to pen a satisfying ending, but seriously, what are the odds? I’d have countless ideas which way they could go, but with Dabb at the helmet it’s useless trying to navigate a map, because he himself has no clue what those fine lines called streets and roads even are.

I’m sorry, but I’m sad. I’m angry. And I wished more than ever that SPN would have ended with the scene of the glowing Samulet in Dean’s hand in S11. I have long treated that episode as the ending of SPN, because what is currently running on tv labeled as “Supernatural” has absolutely nothing in common with the show I once fell head over heels in love with.

[mygallimaufry]

What Taylor Cole, the actress who plays Sarah Blake,

said in an interview about being invited back to Supernatural in Season 8:

Now, all the writers, except for Dabb, have changed since then.

But, in case you didn’t know, Dabb wrote the episode she was brought back and killed in.

So, you know that tendency the show seems to have where is brings people back just to kill them,

Or do character assassination?

This may be why.

[zmediaoutlet]

@winchesterprincessbride replied to your post “I was heartbroken to learn that SPN is going to end after S15... and...”

@zmediaoutlet Just curious....what are you (barely) hopeful they will fix? Just curious if our lists match, LOL

I don’t really have a ‘list’ necessarily, it’s just...

In the movie Trainspotting, there’s this scene where Spud sleeps over at his girlfriend’s house and accidentally shits the bed. Then, when he carries the sheets downstairs to try to hide the evidence, a Humorous Snafu ends with shit being splattered all over the girl’s parents and the breakfast table. In this analogy, the executive producers and the writing team are Spud, the writing of the plot arcs is the shit, and we’re the poor breakfast table, splattered and confused.

That’s mean. And yet, that’s how it has felt, the last few years. Plans half-made, abandoned half-done. Characterizations thought of and then not followed through, at all. Random one-offs that seem clever and then aren’t referenced again. It’s kind of embarrassing and cringey, in the same way as that Trainspotting scene--like, really? This is what you chose to do? Was it on purpose? How on earth could it have truly been on purpose?

So, s15, knowing the end date, I hope there will be a real plan. Arcs that can satisfyingly conclude. Interesting things to pluck at and change. I haven’t watched yesterday’s episode yet, but I understand that Mary bites it--that will help. No more halfbaked characterization to forget for months at a time and then come back and pretend it mattered. Nick’s gone, too, I hope permanently, and that will help a lot too. No more Lucifer nonsense. I want--Sam and Dean, and a conclusion that feels earned and not haphazardly stumbled into. That’s really it. That’s the entirety of my list. 

I’m a big believer in any premise being believable, successful, etc, as long as you earn it. You bring back Mama? Okay, fine. You make Lucifer have a kid? Sure, okay. It can be made to work, as long as you put in the effort to do so. That doesn’t seem to be the writing model, this last little while. Maybe, hopefully, if everyone’s aware that this is the last hurrah, real effort will be made.

Honestly--in retrospect, President Whoever of the CW saying that they’d get an automatic renewal as long as Jared and Jensen wanted to keep going, that itself might have been the death knell. After all: if there’s no reason to try, why try?

[clairenatural]

i usually don’t agree with “they woobified cas in the later seasons >:(” takes because i think he softens naturally and becomes a father and still maintains his badass power when he needs it and in general it’s natural character development BUT. we should have seen 5x18 “I rebelled for this” levels of anger about jack at the end of s14/early s15

[naruhearts]

I know people have said this already but--

Nothing is more painful, more appalling, more unceasingly gross, than Dean Winchester dying alone in a barn without his Found Family other than his brother. Nothing is more insulting than Dean not being able to live the long, natural life Cas wanted him to.

Dean Winchester died without being able to let Cas know that he always loved him in return. Always. 

Dean Winchester didn’t even get to live with the love of his life for eternity in his own Heaven after long, extensive, exhausting years of pining for Cas -- after miserable self-loathing years of believing he was never worthy of Cas’ love. 

When Dean Winchester finally gained true self-acceptance, FREE WILL (which Cas’ love for Dean was entrenched in), and the sheer sense of happiness he was bound to achieve -- which the narrative told us it was leading to, mind you, by incorporating character growth and development and Jungian elements and constant introspection -- he lost his life. 

The greatest love story ever told was REAL, and it was OBLITERATED in 60 mins. 

[norahastuff]

I’m not even saying anything about Cas or Dean and Cas’ relationship, that’s a whole separate issue, but really? This is what they did to Dean? He has no dreams, wants, desires or personality outside of Sam? All those years of character building, of him growing into and accepting the person he always was, of him learning to accept that he deserves to have good things and be his own person -  in the end none of it meant anything? 

The finale didn’t take into account anyone’s arcs or character growth.  I mean there’s barely one moment I can point to and say this feels like a culmination of something the story has been building to for 3 episodes, let alone an entire series.

It sounds weird to say, because of course I was disappointed that he wasn’t in this episode, but really Cas is the only one who got an ending that in any way felt like a conclusion to all that came before. It payed off a multi season arc and who he was as a character and everything he’s been through, and I’d once again like to thank Berens and Misha (and Jensen) for that.

[awed-frog]

Sorry but another thing the can go to hell for - by having Cas literally say ‘I know you can never love me this way but it’s fine and death is great anyway’, they just obliterated the very reasonable fanon fact 75% of fics are based on: the idea that Cas can see Dean, can see Dean’s soul, has seen all of Dean’s memories when he put him back together and gave him a body again, knows about Dean’s dreams and desires. They rewrote and retconned all that shit, up to and including Dean’s increasingly desperate prayers in Purgatory and how Cas heard all of them. Plus all those other times he prayed to Cas and he was drunk and desperate and sure Cas was not even alive anymore.  I mean, there are like 23000 fics out there on how Cas knows from the very first moment they meet that a) Dean sometimes swings that way and b) Dean is occasionally hot for him, too and it’s a joy to see the story unfolds as told from that perspective? How Cas both understands and doesn’t understand, because he’s an angel and human emotions are HARD. And, more importantly: that he can see, very clearly, in the colours of Dean’s soul (which he canonically SEES) that Dean is falling for him emotionally as well as physically, and that he pushes back against that because he thinks he doesn’t deserve it. Because these two characters are both people who failed, got it wrong, disappointed their fathers and were despised by their brothers and never felt good enough for any kind of life or love or support. And instead they found each other and that’s why the will they won’t they worked so well - because they both knew what the other felt (Dean because he can read people, it’s literally what keeps him alive, and Cas because of his soul-seeing and dream-scanning powers) but never acted on it because they thought they themselves were not good enough, or worthy enough, to be loved in that way. And guess what: the ending destroyed all of that and literally said, “You were right. Neither of you is good enough for anything other than dying so that better people can live”. Like what in the fuck.

[septembersghost]

i’ll say this once publicly and never again

andr*w d*bb is not some secret crusading hero, he has had intense disdain for and disrespect towards dean from the very beginning of his tenure with this show in S4, he has done everything in his power to destroy his characterization, relegate him to a secondary role, treat him like a useless fool, villainize him for his rational reactions, and strip him of his character traits. look at the entire storyline with jack for the most abundant evidence of this. tell me it didn’t exist to shame dean for his feelings. to shame dean for not reacting in the “correct” way. to shame dean for being a “bad” parent (do not get me started on the implications with that and how it’s much worse because of dean’s frequent caregiver role in the narrative and his parentification, so not being the “good” role model/parent for jack and some of the events that follow gets us really into the weeds with medea-like undercurrents and was setting fans up to hate him). I saw people wish death on dean all season. pull up comments throughout S15 and you’ll see so many “he’s so mean to (insert jack or cas or sam here), i can’t stand him, i hope he dies” comments. the internet was especially overflowing with death wishes after 15x17. please look at “the hero’s journey” when he stripped the winchesters’ inherent skills away and attributed all of their smarts and strengths and capability to divine intervention, thus rendering their status as skilled warriors inert. and now we know that wasn’t accidental. they were setting it up. make him seem damaged, broken, wrong. tell him his remarkable resiliency and abilities were never actually his. reiterate that he’s too poisonous, too angry. then tell him...he’s actually done everything for love. force him to pay penance (to watch cas die, to get beaten to a pulp by god himself, take your pick.) and once he is thoroughly trampled under the wheel of that guilt, instead of giving him resolution and love in return, put him back where he started, entirely defined by his caretaker role, entirely defined by the person he gave everything for, and tell him he’s right, that’s all he ever was or had, he deserved to die bloody and scared. (i beg of you, do not twist his death into dying for love, for sam or for cas, because that’s even worse. he deserved to live for love, he died for nothing.) there’s so much to unpack here with ideas about sin and ideas about sacrifice and ideas about the use of feminine-coding leading to, essentially, a fridging, that if i tried to enumerate them, this would become a dissertation, and it’s already too damn long.

the finale was the last chance to crush dean and make everything about sam, who is, in d*bb’s mind, the real protagonist. this is not news to us, he has slighted dean many times. (d*bb could also never keep the lore straight. dude introduced a multiverse - a. multiverse. - into supernatural). and you may say, why did you watch his era, then? and i’d say, i still watched it for dean, because i could never leave him behind. i watched because i believed in and cared about the story. i watched because i could always find some meaning there. so i guess this was the reward for that decision.

this was always the intended ending. the details of getting there may have slightly changed, but the destination didn’t. jensen has told us this. there’s a reason it didn’t sit well with him from the very beginning, and it had nothing to do with cas (as is quite obvious given jensen’s enthusiasm for the confession scene), it had to do with the fact that they were gutting a character who he spent 15 years pouring his heart and soul into, going above and beyond to define him and nurture him and bring him wholly to life, who he considers part of himself, who he’s referred to as his “first love” and his “best (imaginary) friend,” and they told him, “here’s the ending, take it or leave it,” and they told him, when he expressed serious unsettled concerns, “you’re too close to this/too emotional,” until he had no choice but to accept that this was happening, that dean’s entire arc was going to mean nothing and that he just had to deal with it. 

he could reciprocate to cas ten different ways and he’d still be dead. reciprocation actually makes his death even worse and even more malicious and disgusting and even more hollow but let’s not go there.

any version of this story that ended with its traumatized, battle-scarred, compassionate heart never being allowed the time to heal or recover, never being allowed to live, being impaled in a frankly, ridiculous, gratuitous way (that thing was only there to kill him, it served no other function, and suddenly dean forgets what a great tactician he is? i guess because his skills weren’t “real.” and suddenly dean, who we know, without question, wants to live now. wants to keep moving forward. has reasons to choose life. wants those sacrifices to mean something. dean winchester. gives up?) is unconscionable. any version of that which tries to tell us he could only find peace in stepford heaven is abominable. it doesn’t matter who's there to greet you when you’re dead at 41 with your whole life having been ripped away from you. they’d be there to greet you if you lived another fifty years, too, and that would be much more satisfying. and there are other implications - dean is taken forever. that light is snuffed out and leaves a chasm of loss in his wake. to the point where we know people are going to die because he’s dead. because sam lives a half-life until the day he too is dead and they can be together. 

think about the real world implications - we don’t have literal monsters to fight here, but this story was never about that. it was always about overcoming all the hurt and the fear and the shadows of our inner demons, really. they said - don’t bother. it doesn’t matter anyway. all that fighting and bleeding and trying so hard and loving so, so much. it doesn’t matter. but we know that’s not true. we know dean’s life was precious. we know dean’s life mattered irrevocably. we know he should have been allowed to live. to imply, in any way, that those of us who identify with him are just too broken to find peace and enjoy freedom and give love and be accepted is, again, unconscionable. we only have this one life. that’s all we know for sure. no one is too broken to love or to live.

this is on d*bb and s*nger and everyone else who signed off on this idea before j2 even walked into that writers’ room in july 2019. there’s weird, questionable stuff going on with the 11 missing shots and different dubs and knowing takes were changed or cut, whatever else, but we were always going to end up here. with a man who has probably been planning to do this to dean for years. who likely thinks it’s edgy and subversive. one of the other writers literally tweeted that, “it always had to end for him like this” and defended it as the “right” ending. this is how they viewed him. this is all they believe he was capable of or deserved. there’s nothing wrong with holding them accountable for it