#discuss chapter

[chloesimaginationthings]

Doey trio consider what to do about poppy playtime

[paperlit]

We as a fandom moved way too fast past this:

And this:

[twilightofthesandwiches]

It’s funny, when the first Deltarune Chapter came out, people were quick to notice how, while the illustration of the Human and Monster Hero in the Prophecy pretty much matched Susie and Kris exactly

Ralsei only matched the “Prince from the Dark” while wearing that hooded cloak he discarded very shortly after.

So that led people to speculate that maybe Ralsei is not the Prince from the Prophecy. That Ralsei - as the one who actually knows the Prophecy - deliberately dressed himself like ‘the Prince from the Dark’ so he could pretend to be one of the Prophesied Heroes. Maybe deliberately for sinister purposes, maybe subconsciously out of wishful thinking, because he wanted friends.

But now, that we know more of the 'True Prophecy'…

Well, the question of Ralsei matching or not matching the Prophesied Prince still remains as it was, since Chapter 4's illustration of the Prince also pretty much matches the first one we saw…

But now, the Prophecy Status of all three of our Heroes have been called into question! If anything Ralsei is now the most likely one to ‘belong’ to the Prophecy, with his unique Darkener-who-can-exist-in-all-Worlds status and being created with the Burden of Knowledge of the Prophecy.

Because unlike the illustration shown in Chapter 1, the ‘True’ Illustration for Kris is… quite abstract.

There’s nothing here that specify it must be Kris Dreemurr. It doesn’t contradict the idea that it can be Kris, but… It’s just a cage for us made from ‘human parts’, it could just as well be one of the Undertale Humans, or the Vessel from the start of the game, or something we don’t know about it yet.

Meanwhile the illustration of ‘the Girl’ subtly contradicts Susie's actual design, by having the figure carry, not Susie’s trademark Axe, but a Sword.

One has to wonder if the Prophecy has already gone ‘off the rails’ a long time ago. I’ve been thinking, if not Susie, who else could’ve been filling this role of a sword-wielding Monster Girl…

And the only one I can come up with is Dess.

[wormsical]

i liek deltarune

[starmocha]

Love and Deepspace + Tumblr Text Post ↳ Sylus: No Defense Zone

[doppel-doodles]

A normal post a about Kevin Barnes from Poppy Playtime.

I genuinely feel so bad for Kevin…

Like that was a kid who clearly had a lot of issues from the start, instead of getting the help he needed all that happened was him being marked off as a „problem child“.

And then he was turned into a toy:/

Read more of my full thoughts and a sorta character analysis/ramblings below cut!

Like honestly no wonder he is seething if he wasn’t troubled before he definitely is now-

Obviously he has no trust in anyone, almost every adult he ever knew screwed him over in some way, hell even the kids he shares a body with would go against what he would do.

(Great example: When Doey chases us in his monster form, it's the arms of Matthew and Jack that are trying to keep his mouth from biting us, Kevin's are trying to grab for us.)

He was hurt over and over again, clearly he wasn’t aggressive just because he wanted to be but because this was his only way of making sure he wouldn’t get hurt.

It was how he had a semblance of control, a sense of protection.

But of course the irony is: That coping mechanism brought him more pain, it was what got him killed.

Sure, maybe he could've just "calmed down", but why would he? He was hurt again, he lost everything AGAIN.

All because he listened to their judgement over his own. Kevin could've killed the player and Poppy on sight, clearly his emotions easily overpowered the other two, but he didn't.

Instead he agreed to trust them as well.

He was still willing to do that, surely if he were just a mindless monster he wouldn't be.

And you know what? I believe he blames himself just as much if not more for what happened than he blames us and Poppy and projects it tenfold.

Because maybe, JUST MAYBE-

If he didn't allow himself to trust again, then everyone would still be alive.

But he did...now see what that got him?

In his mind he's proven right.

So what's an emotionally unstable child to do? After being hurt AGAIN?

That's right.

He lashes out at the first thing he sees that had something to do with his pain:

Us.

Is he in the right? Hell nah- bro we didn't mean for that to happen! But do you seriously think this kid is thinking rationally right now??? NO! He is seeing red right now, he is in fight mode! All emotions and must I reiterate that the only way he knows how to express them is through anger and violence?

There is NO reasoning with wrath try as you might! And that hurts because yeah maybe you could've dealt with that if he was still a gradeschooler but he isn't! He is 900 pounds of living dough with a thirst for blood!

It's either our life or his now. And we already know what the outcome of that is.

Honestly I think it's better that we only hear Matthew and Jack apologise for what happened, I do not think Kevin would even if he did feel bad for what he had done.

Because why would someone who has been scorned so many times be vulnerable all of the sudden? When his main character trait is biting at those who bark at him?Why would all that rage suddenly disappear? If anything the stress of dying only causes him to lash out more.

You don't need an apology from him to feel bad for him.

He is hurting anyone with two eyes can see that and for what it's worth, I do believe deep down he knew what he was doing was wrong but it was too late for him to see any other alternatives and even if he didn't and thought he was right for doing what he did it doesn't take away from the fact that he was fucked over by life.

Kevin is not the worst part of Doey, he is just a part of him.

And that part is not just a violent hunk of playdough.

It’s a scared, confused little boy that cared just as much about every toy in safe haven as his other two components did.

Because if he didn’t why would he get so angry about their death?

Anyway thanks for coming to my ted talk-

Also feel free to agree or disagree with my take, those are just my thoughts so let me hear yours, I like discussions:}

For those interested here are some Jack thoughts and Matthew!:D

And the big blue lump Doey

[bigfatbreak]

I have some curiosity about how marionette acted before fu’s death. Was she her normal self until fu died and she just snapped or was she already in a downward spiral and fu just accelerated it to its conclusion?

She was already hugely stressed out, then the memories of Chat Blanc caused a large amount of her trauma to kind of double down - now she had a visualization of what things could be like if she failed, after all, and those images don't leave you - then when Fu lost all his memories, of which she blames herself for, she started to rapidly decline, as it was very much like losing a loved one AND she was losing the only adult she could discuss her superhero stress with.

Lila saw how reserved Marinette was becoming and stabbed the last nail in the coffin by starting rumors about her that Alya tried to confront Marinette about. Marinette was too exhausted to defend herself, and tried to just brush things off, but Alya took that as confirmation that Mari was acting as badly as Lila said, and from there - with someone she considered a close if not THE closest friend - leaving her behind, Marinette galvanized herself.

(not long after that, Bunnix tried to approach her and do damage control, but she was too heavy handed, pushing Marinette further from everyone. things haven't been the same since.)

[babybluey]

Parents, Freedom and how Carol Holiday has been present since the beginning

Carol is already climbing up there as my favorite character in chapter 4, if not of the whole game, and we literally just met her lol

But because of this I’ve been thinking about her a lot… and I realized that she’s been foreshadowed since literally the beginning of the game and it’s driving me actually insane.

Like, since the very first chapter, the bosses have all had this thing where they’re just incredibly shitty parents. And when they’re not parents they’re just incredibly shitty irresponsible adults.

In chapter 1 we meet king, a tyrannical ruler who doesn’t think twice about using his young son to further his own ends, and is a slimey coward to fakes remorse to take advantage of ralsei’s good nature.

This trend continues in chapter 2: Queen is an overbearing mother that, while genuinely wanting to do good for the lightners, assumes herself as smarter than them and forces all her decisions on them with no thoughg on whether they even agree.

Tenna is a bit more shaky, but since the TV dark world was created by Kris, I think Tenna is either:

        ⁃       representing kris’ repressed trauma and loneliness over now being alone in a once warm and lively house, wanting to get those days back (Tenna child of divorce memes are so real)

        ⁃       More generally Tenna acts like a very troubled parents who uses their kids (the lightners) as emotional support and validation instead of actually dealing with his own insecurities and problems, alienating them in the process

I personally think both of these observations are true.

The titan’s in chapter 4 also produce children versions of themselves, though I think that’s pushing it as the titan is more if a force of distruction than a character.

But who do we get introduced in chapter 4 who fits this theme? Carol Holiday that beautiful soul

The MOMENT, I swear, THE MOMENT SHE WALKS IN, THE WHOLE ATMOSPHERE CHANGES IN A DIME. It’s crazy, we’ve met tyrannical rulers and wire-mind controlling dictators, and we were forced to live the TV apocalypse by a man child, but this random, average, boring everyday woman is the single most hatable character in the whole game.

Because the tyrant, the dictator, the manchild, THEY ARE ALL HER!

Since chapter 1, we’ve been establishing this oppressive parental force in the form of the bosses, they’ve all been terrible but ultimately, before ch 4, it’s all been a game, you could defeat them. You can’t defeat Carol, she isn’t a game. Her mere presence is a blizzard. The adults don’t take her seriously, but Noelle, her own daughter, is terrified of her. Her whole character arc in ch 2 was standing up to Queen, but she can’t even look her own mother in the eye.

When it was revealed her and Kris are working together my jaw actually dropped. Because it means she’s been involved in the plot since the very beginning, even though we could never see her. If she’s the knight (which I don’t think she is, but this can’t be dismissed) it wouldn’t be out of pocket that the chapter bosses have been manifesting as they are because of her disposition, since chapter 4 establishes that the lighter that creates a fountain DOES influence the behavior and appearance of the darkners in some way.

Hey, this can work even if the knight is dess (which I believe), because she could be projecting her feelings of her mother on them as she’s making the fountains, intentionally or not.

And like… what better way to represent the game’s theme of denied choices, of having only one path you can follow through regardless of whether it’s actually good for you, of whether it’s beneficial at all, of whether you want it, than through an oppressive parent?

Like, being born is literally the shittiest gamble of all. You need to beg on your hands and knees that you’re gonna end up with decent enough people as your caretakers, because Jesus Christ, if they’re not, you’re FUCKED.

You can obviously still have a great life, but your parents will affect your life FOREVER, you have a part with them with you wherever you go, every single little action from them can cause a shift in you inexperienced soaking child brain that affects your ENTIRE LIFE. And that’s just the people, the economic status they come with can be even more deterministic of the kind of life you can have, most people will stay in the exact social class as their parent. Throughout history you’d have the same exact job as your parent, regardless of your talents or passions.

And goddamn, Carol SUCKS, and she’s obvious she’s got kris right where she wants them. I struggle and won’t put a definition on them yet, since the nature of their relationship is so vague, but I really don’t blame people for interpreting it as grooming, it does NOT look good. Even if kris was super on board on whatever the plan is, it’s obvious that they’re relationship with Susie and Ralsei is deeply affecting them and they not be so keen on going on with everything anymore, but they can’t do anything about it, with or without soul, they’re never free, there’s only 1 path.

I don’t think Carol is going to be complitely unredeemable, she could have very sympathetic motives, but her actions have an horrible effect of every single character in story. Like bro literally all the major characters have parents issues in some way!!!! And all the parents, while good people, fail to properly relate and understand them.

All of them except one: the Old Man.

Since his earliest scenes, this old turtle has proven to be the next best thing to warm bread. He’s so amazing he makes me cry.

He’s a happy, wise, truly free person that doesn’t need anything else from life, and wants the kids to be as fulfilled as he is, but, and this is important: THROUGH THEIR OWN MERITS.

He knows the kids need help, and he gives it to them, but not by imposing his views on them, or acting like he knows better just because he’s older, he knows the kids are smart and he lets them come to their own conclusion naturally.

He encourages them all throughout the chapter to not follow a prophecy just because it has been written, that they can write their own story, that’s the beauty of stories! He’s the FIRST character to suggest that the prophecy doesn’t have to be followed, and he himself as a character is a complete coincidence! He wasn’t meant to appear, since as the representation of a loved one he can only present himself in extremely specific circumstances, but now that he’s there he’s not gonna make any moment go to waste, he’s gonna guide these kids and make amends with his son regardless of the fact he’s literally dead and it wasn’t meant to be!

His appearance could legit be the catalyst for the prophecy being destroyed and it was all an accident. I’m obsessed with it.

There’s also the whole thing with Susie and her freedom, and how that so easily also corresponds to teenage rebellion to authority, she’s writing her own life dammit!!! Fuck you mom!!!! Fuck you society!!!!

This could have been the same for Dess as well at first, before it turned into a more negative, destructive, and selfish kind of freedom, but this is more speculative.

I’m so fucking excited for how this whole thing gets explored, there are so many possibilities and they’re all peak. The lighters could team with knight Dess to defeat Carol, or maybe Carol and the Knight are working together with Kris, or maybe Kris and Carol are working AGAINST the knight but for different reasons that the heroes, it’s all so hype.

These are my two cents but I love stories that take the small, private and personal and turn it into a metaphor for larger, more philosophical themes and I’m so glad deltarune is looking to be one of those stories. 

Susie kill that hag.

[jitteryfool]

While I get the intitial surprise and shock that Berenice and her cousin were sharing a sugar daddy and might or might not have engaged in certain activities together with Sterling... I am honestly kind of over all those 'sweet home Alabama' jokes or people just pointing out the incest and nothing else.

Like, yeah. Ok. We all read the chapter. Can we move on from that now? Can we talk about anything else, like maybe what the incestuous element added could mean for Berenice's character and backstory, what it might say about her relationships in life? Were Egaeus and Berenice already in that kind of relationship, or did they only play into it to please Sterling? So many interesting elements to be discussed from this chapter and the revelation of Berenice's life, all shoven aside only for a hundred same bare-bones exclamations of 'they were COUSINS???' and then followed by 'OH but at that time it was seen as normal!'

I'm just. kind of frustrated the mere presence of it is such a big deal I guess? It honestly doesn't come as that much of a surprise because well - it's gothic literature, as the webtoon has clearly established itself. Also, the character is based on 'Berenice' where they are indeed cousins engaged to be married. I would have been more surprised if Egaeus suddenly wasn't Berenice's cousin.

And I just don't see the point on dwelling on it so much for just being there or 'justifying' why it would be there by bringing up how it was different at that time, I guess. It felt, honestly, a little like some kind of moral panic, or more like, a lot of gesturing to make sure people wouldn't think you'd endorse the incestual aspect, even though it honestly isn't necessary because we all already know incest is bad and the story never made it seem like it would endorse it. Also, gothic fiction always had stuff like this, and I would love for people to finally move past the stage of just talking about how it's there and instead start talking about why - story-wise, character-wise - it would be there and what it means or could mean.

[randomness-is-my-order]

for me, nothing at all changes about jiang cheng’s end-of-canon circumstances by the reveal that he distracted the guards that led to his capture by the wens after the lotus pier attack and the reason for it is simple: you can’t be redeemed by something you did before you committed your wrongdoing. the change of character and growth needs to happen after you fucked up. his prior “good” choices/“heroic” acts do NOT make him a better person in hindsight because he went ahead and acted like a piece of shit later on, anyway. it’s like saying a murderer should be pardoned because they saved a bird from dying ten years ago or that they donated to charity that one time, “omg look they had a good heart <3”. even the text treats it like this afterthought, contextually, because by the time any of it would be revealed—it’d have been way too late for anything to change. a history of violence and hate cannot be erased nor reduced by an action taken in good faith (if not good sense) before this history ever began.

redemption happens as a response to your choices in the aftermath of your fuck-ups (or in some cases, the narrative effectively nullifies the wrongdoing itself which leads to a blank slate/redemption; but that is NOT the case with jc), not as callback from the distant past when you were perhaps a less shitty person. many think jc revealing this “secret” would be significant in some way. but... how exactly would you expect wei wuxian to react to this revelation? show gratitude after jc’s choice inevitably led to the loss of his golden core? be happy that his once-buddy cared for him before jc contributed to his death and the death of the wens and the death of countless other innocents? imagine someone once close to you lied and betrayed your trust and say, framed you wrongfully so you got jailed. later, they recount how they kicked your bully in the balls when you were both in school. okay...? how the FUCK does that change anything? you are STILL in jail?

jc’s prior good will means nothing after the bridges he’s burned to the ground, burying them twenty feet under. and he knows this. he knows that revealing the truth will make no dents. wei wuxian won’t have a better view of him just because of it. jiang cheng’s actions do not gain a softer edge. the redeeming action has to come after the tragedies he has helped with and participated in. he’s not magically a better person with this context. he’s just as who he was before. because what we are evaluating his morals on was not his supposed love/care for wei wuxian but his actions. his violence. his hatred that targetted people unjustly. these do not change. these don’t go away. these should not go away. these should not be as easy to go away. that’s all.

[legandairy-horror]

Does anyone else feel a strange sort of dread waiting for new deltarune chapters?

It sounds crazy right? I admit it's a weird feeling for sure, and I'm not even 100% sure if dread is the right way to describe it. But as more info is revealed and the next chapter inevitably gets closer and closer to releasing I can't help but feel a strange sort of, melancholy? Longing? The only way I can describe it is "when you know the goodbye is coming". The strange somber feeling when you know you’re going to have to leave stuff behind, but aren't quite ready for it yet.

warning: words. Homestuck

In 3 months Chapter 1 will be 6 years old, and in 2 months Chapter 2 will be 3 years old. Deltarune is ostensibly in Early Access but this release schedule puts new chapters closer in time scale to whole sequals if anything, which they most assuredly are not trying to be. This has created a strange situation in the fanbase that I don't think I've ever truly seen anywhere else. One where, In the time between chapters It feels like everyone has had their own chance to decide what Deltarune is to them. To create their own version of this story, to write their own themes that they want to see explored, to imagine their own events and plot twists they want to see play out.

@lynxgriffin Paper Trail Comic Being an Alternate Story following off of chapter 1

@lilybug-02 The Chara Timeline Being one of many interpretations on the popular Asriel & Chara roommates headcannon.

@huecycles Andromeda Chapters being their interpretation on the full game

The innumerable Deltarune Theorists and analysts like HalfBreadChaos, Andrew Cunningham, Stuffed Alpaca, etc. etc.

@vyletbunni Deltatraveler being a whole ass fangame based around a chapter 2 meme that it has long since outlived

And that's kinda the thing isn't it? Once more deltarune comes out, a ton of these projects will just become outdated, it's an inevitability. So what will happen to them? will they become forgotten? maybe, maybe not, it's impossible to tell. but either way it feels kinda sad to think about yknow? that one day all the time and effort spent and all the memories made might one day just cease to exist.

There's a lot more I could say on this topic if given the chance but to keep this tumblr post from morphing into a 2 hour long video essay in text form let me leave off with this.

In the age of the internet and social media there will always be a fan of something. Nothing truly dies quite like it used to anymore, regardless of whatever influencers want you to believe. But that doesn't mean things stop changing, that there wasn't a past that has since been left behind. I'm a Homestuck fan. more specifically I'm a Late Homestuck fan, one who came in after the comic had already ended and it's peak in popularity was long behind it. The fandom's still around all these years later. But it'd be foolish to admit that, 8 years after the comics controversial end, the inescapable trend of new fans replacing old fans has left the fandom wholly disconnected from the monolith that it once was. the only remnants of which lie in decades old discourse and fanfiction. Like old relics of a long forgotten city, waiting to be excavated under a fine layer of dirt.

Before I close out here I just want to make it clear: I'm not saying that we should be trying to return to some nebulous "glorious past" that never really existed. I'm not trying to deride Toby Fox for not working in the sweatshop hard enough to produce more content™, or whatever you wanna try and spin-doctor this post into. It's just a thought that creeps into my head every now that I wanted to share, see if anyone feels the same, yknow?

Besides it's not all doom and gloom. For those of you OG Homestucks who read till the end. You remember Heinoustuck? Guidestuck? Nightfall? Fucking Ke$haStuck? yeah those are still going by the way! after years of inactivity they've now started back up again. some under new authors and some by the same author but still!

You could say a lot about that but to me at least, it makes me feels hopeful in a way. That, even if not everything will survive. we'll at least have some mementos to remember what came before.

[rimatsu]

setting pessimism aside to daydream about my ideal bucktommy makeup scenario and i just... keep oscillating between buck extending an olive branch and tommy reaching out first. there's merit in both. yes i'd love for buck to discard passivity and fight for this salvageable relationship — for buck to look tommy straight in the eyes and tell him that his sharp edges and his vulnerable insides don't make him any less deserving of love. that he's not blinded by the excitement of novelty or misguided admiration — even without the full picture, buck has seen enough pieces of the puzzle that makes up tommy's whole to know that he loves the entirety of him, unspoken faults and past sins included. that buck can't guarantee forever but he sure as hell can try to build the sturdy foundation of a shared life based on the hope for more. that sometimes you just luck out on the first draw and there's nothing wrong with good fortune.

but it would also be extremely healing if tommy knocked on buck's door to chase after his own second chance. to say "i want you more than i'm scared of hurting" when buck asks him what's changed in 4 months — because tommy would rather live with scars than be haunted by regrets and what-ifs. because buck is worth the risk of never recovering from having loved him

[fuckyeahchinesefashion]

OP: Check out. The fully-sexual charged cinematic movement design.

Cnetizens: How did the director come up with the idea to have him kneel on a playing card, adding so much aesthetic energy, is that some kind of genius?

[twilightofthesandwiches]

…Okay, so I don’t really want to make definitive statements about, like, anything going on with the Knight or the Holidays, obviously there’s still a lot we don’t know yet… I’m more spitballing ideas than anything…. But…

What if Dess isn’t the Knight because Dess is dead? Something that Carol is keeping covered-up from the rest of Hometown and even from Noelle (Who is under the assumption Dess just disappeared one day and probably just ran away from home).

The Knight might be Carol, or maybe the antlers on their helmet are purely decorative and symbolic of their alliance with Carol rather than indicative they are literally a Reindeer Monster…. (I did notice Papyrus’ house was apparently empty during the start of Chapter 4…)

Or maybe Rudy has been putting on an act this entire time I dunno?

Mainly I’m thinking this from an angle of “what the hell would be the Knight’s motive to open Dark Fountains?”, “what would be Carol’s motive?”, “What would be Kris’ motive for helping?”

And we literally just established that under very specific circumstances, a Dark World is capable of reviving a dead Monster via their dusty burial object.

If Carol’s goal is to turn all of Hometown into one big Dark World where her eldest daughter is alive… maybe out of an idea it will bring the Dreemurr-Holiday Family Unit ‘back to normal’, that will, well… it will certainly explain why Kris is obliged to help due to their ‘promise’, even as it’s implied it’s against Susie’s best interests.

And it would also connect to the idea of the Three Heroes banishing “The Angel’s Heaven” in Ralsei’s abridged prophecy.

“Heaven” in the sense of a perfect Afterlife, and we already have one member of the Holiday Family who is heavily themed as an ‘Angel’...

[iabuseaxisuty]

This post contains spoilers for Ch4 and discussions of topics that may be upsetting like SA. Proceed with caution.

The Snowgrave route is pretty definitively an allegory for sexual assault.

I am not saying SA occurred in canon. I am saying the events are a clear allegory.

In general, the route is about Noelle losing her bodily autonomy. Having her sense of control and self taken over by someone who doesn't care about her needs. And the non consensual romantic implications are there as early as chapter 2. You have to insist you and Noelle are "something else" than friends. You have to give her a ring, which could be compared to a wedding ring.

I feel like the "deflowering" visual for the Ch4 scene pretty much confirms this. Noelle is pricked by a thorn and is "deflowered", losing her innocence. Again, I don't believe SA occurred in canon, but rather that the route as a whole is an allegory for sexual assault, and an intentional one.

Feel free to discuss further.