#his ending in s5 thematically makes the most sense

[queen-of-hawkins-why-ler]

Am I the only one who thinks that the thematic and narrative climax of s5 (and low key the whole show) will be almost a direct parallel to the "You said yes" scene from s2?? Like same exact narrative and cinematic setup of Will being controlled by Vecna to the point where he's nearly gone or on the brink of death, and Mike being able to bring him back to reality with words of love???

Like I low key feel like that scene in s2 was supposed to serve as a precursor and foreshadowing to the climax of Byler rather than just standing on its own as an isolated event. We always talk on here about how Mike's monologue to El in s4 was supposed to directly contrast that scene and demonstrate how false and unnatural Milkvan's supposed "love" is, but we never really talk about just how awkward of a placement it is for the true and "authentic" love confession (Byler s2) to precede the clunky and false one (Milkvan s4). Like, imo it kind of leaves things on an awkward note and kind of hanging.

The only way it wouldn't be awkward or unfinished is if there ends up being a followup scene/parallel to the "you said yes" scene, and I think this is what's going to happen. I think Mike's monologue to El comes after the more romantic, authentic confession not only because it's supposed to contrast it but because the show is serving us two different "choices," two different options for Mike, two different scenarios. Not just for the sake of his character arc but in a meta sense as well, kind of like asking the audience, "which choice makes the most sense for Mike given the events up until now and the themes of the show? Can he be his most authentic and happiest self with Will or El?" And the natural followup to posing this dichotomy would be to answer this question for us by showing us in no uncertain terms why Will makes more sense for Mike as a long-term love interest.

The other reason why I believe this to be the case is because of the blocking of the s2 scene and the way it's set up: with Will being unable to move, unable to say anything or regain any control, and with Mike opening up and being vulnerable about his true feelings for Will [here comes the most important part lol] IN FRONT OF the other characters like Jonathan and Joyce (I can't remember if it was the entire rest of the cast in this scene or just those two?? I think it might've been everybody bc weren't they trying to get Will to communicate with them using morse code? I don't remember lmao) but anyways, I don't think it was a coincidence that Mike gave his grand "Do you remember the first day that we met?" speech not only to Will himself but in front of the other characters. Remember as well that Mike also confessed his "love" for El in front of an audience, and I don't think that's a coincidence either. I think it's leading to a final confession from Mike that will also take place in front of an audience and will serve as the "choice" that Mike makes between El and Will as well as the "choice" the Duffers present as being the correct narrative and thematic choice for the show. It's important that Mike's initial two confessions took place in front of an audience and also that his final one will, because this will also serve as Mike's "coming out" moment to the rest of the characters and to the audience. I think that Mike is going to have a second speech to Will that isn't just "I love you I love you I love you" over and over again like it was to El. It will be sweet and unique to Will and Byler's relationship except this time it will be explicitly, undeniably romantic so that no one will be able to even think that what he feels for Will is anything short of genuine, passionate, romantic love.

I wouldn't even be surprised if what Mike says closely parallels what he said to El except basically the opposite, alluding to the fact that it wasn't "love at first sight" for him but a slow, gradually building and gradually cultivating love that blossomed over the course of his entire life. Instead of "I knew then and there that I loved you" like he did to El, he could say something like, "I didn't realize it yet when I met you, and I'm not even sure I know when it happened, but I think I've spent my entire life slowly falling in love with you." And he says it with tears in his eyes and in front of all of the rest of the characters, who will also be crying (especially Joyce lol). And of course Will will just be sobbing even through Vecna's control over him, but it will be Mike's love that ultimately frees him from Vecna's hold over him. This would make sense, because unlike El, Will's story has never been about independence and breaking himself free, but about him and Mike breaking themselves free through teamwork a la "I think that we should work together. I think it'll be easier if we're a team."

[theredhairedmonkey]

What is Callum's next arcanum?

Logically, it could be Moon, as many people have said. I'll be honest, before s5 I assumed it was going to be Moon and not Ocean because Callum had the most exposure to Moon Arcanum stuff via Lujanne and Rayla than any of the other primal sources.

However, narratively and thematically, it should be Stars for three minor reasons but one major reason:

First, it seems to be a trend that, if Callum learns an Arcanum that season, he learns the one named after the season's primal source. So, he learns the Sky Arcanum during Book: Sky, and learns the Ocean Arcanum during Book: Ocean. We're 2 for 2, and since we're coming up to Book: Stars, that seems to be a safe bet.

Second, Callum has actually spent a lot of time learning about Stars this season (especially at the Great Bookery), so he's well positioned to spend the next season putting all that he learned together and find a breakthrough at the Starscraper.

Third, with Rayla's parents on the line, he has a vested interest in learning the Arcanum of the Stars. While the quasar diamonds (i.e. the Corona of the Heavens) are necessary for the spell, I don't think that's all that is needed. Per ToX, things like primal stones and gems only give ordinary non-Arcanum-holding people access to limited forms of magic. So something more is probably needed for Callum to succeed in casting this spell (which he mentioned before is actually quite complicated.

Now, the last reason is the most important one: thematically, it's the resolution of the internal conflict Callum is facing.

As I noted before, the situation Callum finds himself at the end of s5 is a precarious one, where he is potentially lost or trying to find a way to avoid the darkness that lies within. So the question for the next season or two is: how does Callum find himself again? How does he avoid the path of darkness and find his way back to the light?

Well luckily, Callum gave some insight to that himself:

Callum: We call it the South Star. Humans use it to navigate. You know, to find their way in the endless darkness of the night.

This really does hint, in my opinion, that Stars is next for Callum. When do humans use the stars to navigate? Typically in the middle of the Ocean, where other landmarks are not visible. Callum's main journey this season involved accepting the magnitude of the unknown ("there are depths you can't see, parts of yourself you can't understand, and things you can't control"). So it makes sense, from a thematic standpoint, that his next Arcanum is all about what will ferry him through the unknown and help him find his way.

Which would point to Stars.

[emblazons]

a post in defense of (a very much alive) S5 Jonathan Byers

under the cut b/c this is more frustrated commentary than strict analysis, and you shouldn't have to read if you don't want to.

I feel like it must have come from the dry spell between seasons, but I have to say it: all of this “Jonathan is gonna die and that means Stancy could happen” stuff lately is not only giving "I just like angst for its own sake," it's lowkey nonsense if you look at it thematically (in context of the Jon/Nancy/Steve madness yes, but especially in context of the Byers family).

—like? Friends.

Given the Duffer’s track record of refusing to fully kill off major characters even when it could have made sense to (cc: Hopper and Max), I don’t think anyone is actually meeting their end, but let’s be SO serious about who is actually likely to get axed: the boy with a mom, brother, step-sister and girlfriend who have been central to every single moment in this show…or the one they've put into a triangle we all thought was over until S4, who they’ve honestly written into a corner, & whose primary drive in four entire seasons was getting a girlfriend and protecting a bunch of teenagers?

I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just talk Jonathan.

The Duffers (Matt especially) have openly gotten upset at even the notion of Mike dying because "that's depressing" AND "that's Nancy's brother" (showing the familial ties are a HUGE part of what would keep them from ending someone), in addition to them saying they've thought through every imaginable scenario" on who might die—

—and you think its Jonathan whose meeting his end? King of championing "not liking what you don't have to" and the outcasts in all areas from music taste to being queer...after all the Byers have been through and knowing The Duffers write toward championing the outcasts and those who embrace their differences?

That, combined with the fact that the only "evidence" I've ever seen for him potentially dying has been that speech he gave to Will in the SBP somehow being connected to (you guessed it) setting up angst for Will...I'm gonna take a hard and wild educated guess based on the entirety of the rest of the show and say that was literally written so Will could catch a goddamn break, not as a death tag.

The fact that Noah confirmed it wasn't in the Duffer's OG script, was written day of filming + was done because "it was important for people to see will wasn't alone" is evidence enough for that.

Even so, the fact that there are still at least 4 unresolved plots Jonathan is part and privy to makes his death even less likely, because it wouldn't make sense for resolving anything for him to die at all, never mind in the episodes before our supposed timeskip.

Jonathan's messy relationship with Nancy, the fact that he's the only one who actually knows Will is gay, and the fact that he's the only other character who saw & understood the ULTIMATE Chekhov's gun in the form of that painting (on top of also having a longstanding relationship with Mike )should make it clear he isn't going anywhere from a narrative perspective...and I'm not even sure where the idea that he would die popped up, other than fandom warping the canon and projecting onto the plot.

The Duffers have always been clear about not doing things solely for the sake of surprise + not liking things that don't make narrative sense...and Jonathan's death would be both of those things, done solely for shock value.

I just. Be so serious right now. if you want to imagine the weight of Jonathan dying SOLELY for fandom angst DO THAT...but don't pretend like his death in the show wouldn't be the most poorly foreshadowed thing in this entire show, on top of not matching a single theme of the ongoing Stranger Things narrative. ☠️

Put some respect on his name lmao

Bonus: If you really want to talk about character's dying (and not just jump into angst for its own sake): they haven’t given Steve a proper love interest EVER outside of Nancy, made Dustin cry over Eddie instead of staying close to Steve S4, and haven’t ONCE referenced that boy’s family properly more than a few times in passing (and only by Steve himself).

He is the only character who craves normalcy despite this show being about championing the outcast, was supposed to die seasons ago but stayed because Joe Keery was so beloved, and has now been written into a corner where every single person who is central to him (esp Dustin and Robin) either have a new love interest or are worried about something else more than him, which...if you want canonical evidence for a possible death, you're looking in the wrong corner of this love triangle.

[raayllum]

What Aaravos says : And i can better serve you

What Aaravos means : And you can better serve me

So like I've been mulling this over because

What is the difference between a servant and a pawn, if there is one?

Is such an interesting question, thematically. And it shows how someone can take concepts and either purposefully misconstrue them or genuinely honour them, which is to say: King Harrow and Aaravos are set up as perfect ideological opposites and I think it's really fucking cool.

Where Harrow sees strength in children

"The great illusion of childhood is that adults have all the freedom and power. But the truth is the opposite: a child is freer than a king."

Aaravos sees them as someone to dismiss

"These are the champions you've gathered to try and stop me? Why, they're nothing but pathetic children."

Where Harrow did his best to be a servant king as the most powerful person in his kingdom, for Aaravos (the most powerful being in the world), it is a guise and a mask

Their hatred of arrogance

as well as the core principle of Freedom that Harrow has that Aaravos is chasing, both interwoven and passed down to Callum in giving him the Key

Where Harrow did everything he could to make Callum feel welcome and at home in their family, Aaravos merely wants to add him to a collection of pawns

There are also old concept art in which Aaravos was blindfolded, reminiscent of Harrow's choice from Lady Justice. Not to mention Harrow as someone who was like Aaravos (and many others) in that he perpetuated the cycle out of misplaced love / a rageful grief (which, if Aaravos is doing the same because he fell in love with a human, would also provide those sweet Harrai parallels) but unlike Aaravos, he changed his mind. Even if their ideas of servitude are a bit similar, re: the kneeling motif

Which of course, makes sense; Harrow was a man with his life tragically shortened, burdened by regret, anchored by his own crown/chain and by the end of his life, believed wholeheartedly in the Narrative of Love. Even more than someone like Viren, Aaravos appears to wholeheartedly believe in a Narrative of Strength (especially if there is no one left he loves). Which is why I think it's so interesting like, Arc 1 for Harrow is a tragedy told in retrospect and at least partially in reverse; unlike everyone else, he never lives to see the Dragon Prince that he felt so much guilt over returned, that the peace he probably wanted (for his sons if nothing else) was not only achievable, but something that happened. And now Arc 2 is starting to shift the stage, beginning in S4 with setup, of being a tragedy for everyone else who outlived him (for S5 and S6 at least) because the Wheel of the Cycle has yet to stop fully turning and it's so fucking good?

Which is compounded with what I've touched on more briefly before of each of the Main Trio having Core Traits of Harrow that they are then responsible for carrying for the sake of thematic exploration.

Rayla is Harrow's martyrdom (right or wrong) and concept of paying the price, as well as hunting down 'monsters' to solve all her problems; Callum wrestles with Harrow's temptation regarding dark magic and the weight of choices / unintended consequences; Ezran has the place as literal king with a reinvigorated crown and having to well, be king, as well as upholding a relationship to Xadia / the dragon monarchy that's the opposite of his father. All three of them are called to Do Better.

So Aaravos being in some ways the embodiment of history - powerful, ancient, unknown and lost to time - is the perfect opposing threat, because how can you Free yourself from the Past, from the Chains of History, if you can't "learn from it, understand it, and then let it go"?

But like Harrow said so long ago, and as S4 is demonstrating even in a post-outright war world

And now we get to see it unfold first hand

[twdmusicboxmystery]

i know this may be an unpopular opinion but i wanted to know your thoughts anyway

i know you and the majority of TD believe beth will return in DD and i really hope she does as it would be better for her to return via daryl’s story. but i really do believe she will return in ricks spin off for multiple reasons

1. the shows name is literally ’the ones who live’. beth lives, you know?

2. my personal belief is that after beth was left in the car she either woke up or was found by the remaining grady members. i think dawn was talking about the crm when she said people are coming so i think they did eventually come and beth went with the crm either willingly or not. which would put her at the crm

3. i think logically it makes the most sense, because it would be kinda far fetched that beth would be in france. yes it seems random to have dayrl in france too, but the odds of it are crazy

that’s just what i think. i do hope she returns in DD, but if she doesn’t, i think maybe we can all agree she will definitely return in ricks show☺️☺️

You know, I'm not entirely opposed to this. I think it could be argued either way.

What I mean is, my fellow theorists and I have talked about the possibility of Daryl finding out she's alive this season, and then having her actually show up in the second half of season 8 of Fear, which will air BEFORE Daryl Dixon, Season 2.

Well, The Ones Who Live, Season 1, will also air before Daryl Dixon, Season 2. So, it amounts to the same thing.

And if they actually bring her back in one of the other spinoffs, it will hit the airwaves and the entire world will show up for Daryl Dixon, season 2, in the same way they did for TWD S5, to see if he would find Beth. It would actually be really genius marketing on the show's part.

Because clearly the Daryl spinoff is about him finding his romantic happy ending (and trust me, episode 2 pushes this even more), I'm positive it will lead to Beth in some way.

And as for her being in France, 1) Anything is possible. If they can find some plausible way to get Carol to France, then why not Beth? And 2) who's to say the entire spinoff will remain in France? Maybe half way through S2 he gets on a boat and goes home. No idea, but I'm just saying the possibilities are endless for how this can play out.

As for The Ones Who Live, again I think it can be argued either way. I totally understand your logic about Beth being alive and that title. Plus, she's been heavily paralleled with Rick. I think the Rick and Michonne spinoff will get lots of viewership because people know she's going to find Rick. It would be a fun surprise to also find someone no one was looking for.

On the other hand, that line, "we're the ones who live" was specific to Michonne. We didn't really see it around Daryl. So you could also argue that it doesn't apply to his storyline, except thematically.

So yeah. I totally understand what you mean, and you could very well be right. As with all things TWD, we'll just have to wait and see!

Xoxo! 🍁🍂😘

[adolin-is-best-boy]

ranking four queer stranger things ships on how likely i think they are to become cannon!

Ships in question: ronance, byler, jargyle, steddie

from least likely to most likely

note: i’m more focusing on the thematic and meta stuff to determine whether it gonna happen or not

4. Jargyle

i mean, it’s cute, but there is very little evidence for this happening. the only reason i could see the writers doing it would be to give jonathan another love interest after a likely jancy breakup. I mean, neither of them seem the most straight to me, but not in a way that makes it seem that their relationship could be anything more than platonic. besides, if half of the ships on this list end up being canon, when you add it to the other canon ships, then adding jargyle would really make it a bit cramped in the romance department

3. Ronance

the chemistry is there! nancy and robin are looking at eachother in those posters, the same way all the other (basically) canon ships are. it might be a thing relating to getting the other person unvecna’d, but then it’s kinda weird that jopper is doing it. also, i feel like nancy being queer could also lead to some actual sibling bonding with you-know-who. good vibes here all around, plus it’s one of my favorite w/w ships ever!

however, there are some things that make me less sure it’ll happen. first of all, vickie. the only reasons i see robin and vickie not happening is A. vickie dies (lame), or B. vickie doesn’t like girls (unlikely). from the way it’s been building up it’s nigh impossible some sort of romantic confrontation (or something like that) between them won’t happen, and it would be kinda weird if it was built of that robin liked vickie only for her to end up with nancy, unless vickie dies, which would be not very cool (but i could see happening in vol 2).

second of all, i have a feeling nancy is gonna die, if not in vol2 then in season 5. but that’s an entire other post, so i won’t say much else. i’d really like this ship to happen, but i won’t be surprised if it doesn’t.

2. Steddie (bisexual steve)

steddie just makes sense for a lot of reasons! steve having an arc where he realizes he’s bisexual has been set up SO well, it works perfectly with his character, it would be a shame if it were wasted. eddie is heavily gay/queer coded, making it perfect for steve to realize things about himself. plus, it would be perfect for the kids to have someone they already look up to be queer, and make them more comfortable with themselves. im about 75% sure that steve is bisexual.

the only problem here is that eddie has some massive death flags in vol2. i really don’t want this to happen, but i can’t ignore the signs. but if he DOES survive vol2, then i believe it’s extremely likely we’ll get steddie in s5. if he doesn’t live, then it’s possible that steve could end up with jonathan, bc of the likely jancy breakup and the fact that it would be poor writing if stancy got back together. i think we’ll for sure see some queer steve stuff in s5.

1. Byler

it’s happening 100%. i have never been this confident in a queer ship (or any ship for that matter) before. i am so confident in byler happening that i am going to schedule a post on july 1st celebrating it. there is no doubt in my mind. too me it’s so obvious it’s happening that i feel like it’s redundant to explain to anybody who’s seen the show why. there are so many reasons (both external and internal) why byler is going to happen that im not even going to list them, just watch the show.

the question is not IF byler is happening, but WHEN byler is happening. In my opinion it would be better if they are established by the end of vol2, not only to haze out the homophobes early, but to give the relationship time to grow so we can see them as a fully fledged couple in s5 before it ends. there are other reasons, but those are the main ones. however i could also see the writers not having them get together yet, and only confirm that they both have feelings for eachother so they can get together early/mid s5 and we can watch them navigate a new relationship and what it means.

———

okay im done, let me know what y’all think

Edit: I fucking hate it here

Edit 2: never mind im gaining hope again

[divinekangaroo]

Fav season of peaky? Why..

Best gal for Tommy? Why..

Is death the best end for Tommy? Why..

Thank you 😊

Fav season of peaky?

Season 5, season 6 close second, because of Themes.

In an interesting outcome, S5 is better for what then happens in S6. Tommy's experiencing the emotional/moral trauma/consequences of the deferred traumas of all his other seasons' worth of activity by S5 and yet still pushing forward, because it's all he knows how to do (all about action) and it's what he thinks needs to be done (do good things that can only be done by a 'bad' man because of what/how he has to do it), and the ego aspect is thinking only he is capable of doing it and what that then means for him/everyone around him; putting himself into an even worse pressure cooker (British politics stretching into global impacts) for which he is blatantly unprepared and honestly, feels like he's floundering, compounded by the class/sexual/political/ethnic attacks imposed by Mosley all in one aristocratically snarly package? So interesting. The dynamic between him (good man doing bad things for good reasons and perceived as a bad man) and Mosley (framed as evil and righteous and all things accepted by British culture as proper) is insane. That sense of creators creating a situational pressure cooker and watching to wait for it to go bang...

I do struggle to rate the plotline in S5 / S6 - so many coincidences, so much happenstance, so many things that even on detailed rewatch and script reading and headscratching I grapple with. But thematically wow. S1, S2 and S3 were better written/plotted, S4 felt like huge amounts of fun and was dramatically and visually great, but S5 and S6 for thematic emphasis.

Best gal for Tommy?

IE, who would be the most healthful? Jessie Eden. Ironic how it ended with her, because that was the one relationship where I was like, this woman who, in and of her characterisation only, is someone who could work with him as a partner and who would recognise and navigate his traumas without adding to them or taking them on her own shoulders. Everyone else, there were huge swings and roundabouts in power dynamics, blame, self blame etc. If he'd married Jessie between S4 and S5, he might have actually been equipped for S5's confrontations. Although that would have created a very different story XD.

I do love watching/writing Tommy x Lizzie for multiple reasons, and I do think there is love and care there, but they have a conflicted and complicated relationship which makes it difficult to say "this is best for Tommy".

I don't believe May would have been good long term for reasons explained before. May also wasn't love, it was just...fun. And sex, and interest. I don't think May could have ever accepted who he was. And I don't believe Grace would have been good long term because Tommy immediately put her on the most insane pedestal, and I think he was too immature to recognise that; I imagine they would have divorced, or similar to my thoughts on May, he would have had a diifferent kind of (and much earlier) breakdown through forcing himself into a mould he didn't fit into. And I know there's this thing about "only you see me" with Grace after he beat a man to death; but that was one act only, his violence, and it was a reachout to balance Grace's own violent act which was also scaring her right then. But that didn't get anywhere near his lying, his deceiving, his dealing - in S3 it was immediately obvious Grace was unaware of the extent of what Tommy does for business; I think it was represented that he did definitely love her, but he was also putting on a front for her no matter that line or his love, and I think that would have backfired at some point.

Is death the best end for Tommy?

Nope. Get old, live, suffer, live, learn, go to prison, still have to live, actually change, actually grow, etc. Also more storylines if he lives!

Plot and theme wise, I think it would be SUCH a cop out to have him die in any closing movie. There's nothing very appealing about this idea of repentence through death-sacrifice. There's also too much religious connotation to that to be of purpose with who Tommy's character is, slipping into a saint's martyrdom or a jesus-like sacrifice feels too easy.

Plus, they've now effectively done a death (and subverted) in S2 (brilliant), S5 and S6 (very good for very different reasons to S2), substituted Arthur's death in S4, and had a few representations of 'little death' in S3, so if they repeated that? Like how many ways can they do this?

I mean, repentence through death has always itched at me though, because he doesn't seem repentent? He does have a sense of wanting to balance bad acts with good, but he doesn't exactly regret those bad acts...only their consequences if they bounce back at him.

I suppose I could buy into a cool shock-value death sequence if he dies through pure incidental mischance in the first fifteen minutes of the movie and the rest is about how his brothers/family have to pull their shit together for revenge, but not a death-as-repentence sequence.

[thequeensjester]

What stood out to me was how few women were present in the movie, given how much of a force they were in the series. The writing found a way to write out Aelswith, because Eliza Butterworth, who was asked to return, couldn’t make it due to the pandemic so who knows what Aelswith could have brought to the story.

The story and villains wouldn’t hold up if Aelswith and Stiorra were a part of the story.

The writer’s decision to cut Stiorra was disappointing. She decided that the film could only handle one parent-child story. When imho, given Stiorra’s arc with Uhtred in s5, Stiorra’s presence made far more sense than Osbert, who was there to be mostly a background character. How could he possibly be more convincing than Stiorra in battle or in a hostage situation?

She was *the* child that forced Uhtred to look at himself and the decisions he made which came at a great personal loss. Stiorra could have been the one helping Uhtred reach out to Athelstan, who is practically a son to him.

Instead, we got a random romantic fake out with Uhtred and Eadgifu, who was present for offscreen exposition... which includes the unnecessary fridging of Ingrid for dramatic effect.

The film ultimately highlights one of the other weaker points of TLK as a show. The Dane antagonists are generally inconsistent and sometimes, boring. Anlaf was just there and he’s about as interesting as Bloodhair.

Anlaf’s plan was so convoluted that I’m not sure what the overall endgame would be if Athelstan was actually killed. You mean to say that those other kings wouldn’t have united against Anlaf’s conquest? His character felt like a worst Dane-version of Athelhelm, except without any personality.

Ubbe, Skorpa and Sigtryggr (in s4) were the only Dane antagonists that ever felt intimidating and formidable in the series. Brida had her moments in s5 but that lasted about two episodes.

Meanwhile, Aelswith would have eaten Ingilmundr for breakfast... with her ungloved hands. Hell, Aelswith could have ended all those kings herself.

It seemed like the writing decisions focused on fitting 2-hour limit (first this happens, then this happens, etc), rather than how to make the most of those two hours with thematic storytelling to wrap up the series, especially with numerous callbacks to the series.

[aurelion-cerulean]

Time Skip Placement

Or why I think the time skip will happen at the end of Ep1, but IMO should be after Ep2.

This is long, FYI.

Before we get to the placement lets talk the length of the skip:

It has been established that there will be a time skip to account for the fact that the actors can’t reasonably pretend to be 15 year olds. The time skip will try to catch up to their ages, and I think it’s going to reflect Noah. He’s 17 now and will be 18 in October. Will Byers is 15 rn. In order to better catch up to his age (as he is the most reasonable to match), there will be a two year time skip. I know that there is a possibility of a 3 year time skip but this doesn’t work thematically.

They can't become "adults" yet. At least not the main young teen group. Or specifically Will Byers.  It's a coming of age story, and lowkey that sort of applies they aren't "adults." There is a whole aspect of the fact that you can still have a coming of age story after 18, but for the sake of this let's say they're trying to keep it teen coming of age, aka genre convention.

This means that Season 5 will skip 2 years. Will Byers is 17. Either this takes place in spring of 1989 right before the 3 year mark. OR it will be in 1988, during the Halloween season again. Why 1988 around Halloween? Call back to S2 time frame AND S1 with the fact that Will Byers got captured on Nov 6. Usually the plot takes a week to complete, so S5 starts on Oct.31st, it could end on Nov.6th and we come full circle.

Someone could say that 1989 Halloween-Nov.6th. I see this argument, but I still think that Will should be under 18, for the genre convention. Before they graduate HS, and have to go off into the real world (this whole show is a metaphor after all). So I say the time skip will be 2 years. Will Byers will be 17.

Option 1: Time Skip Happens During Ep 1

Honestly when it comes to this option one of the biggest questions that comes with it is, what was so important that had to be addressed in the first bit of this episode that 4x9 did not address. And then we have to ask ourselves why. We’ve already had everyone get back together, roughly. We have already seen the big bad. So then WHAT must be addressed here before we get the time skip?

Either we get a weird military prologue here where we get to see what they are doing and then SKIP. Or we get some wrap ups of some specific things and then SKIP. This would mainly be, what happened to Max? And, El and Mike’s relationship. However if they were going to address both of these in the first half of episode 1, why leave 4x9 the way that it was left? There really is no point. 

Skipping half way though the episode makes no sense, because there are too many why’s. Why didn’t you just address that in 4x9 if you were going to establish it and then essentially skip over it?

Option 2: Time Skip Before Ep 1

Note: This won't happen. The Creators wanted to film 4 & 5 back to back. There is too much that they have to address before the skip, and while they could do it all as flashbacks. That's not the best story telling method. However, for the sake of this, I am addressing it and the why's it can't happen.

This opens us up to a lot of questions. If Mike and El are still together, we missed their talk which is low-key important. If they are broken up, we missed their talk which is low-key important. Maybe it happened on mutual terms? Who knows, but that talk itself, after being built up through a multitude of scenes (and to be interrupted) can’t be skipped over.

The next big issue is, what was Vecna just doing in this time that El was trying to power up? Healing? Of course some hand waving could be like they’ve been fighting this whole time but they haven’t been able to fight him specifically. So it’s just been carnage for a long time, right? So how in the world are the parents reacting? Did we already have them join? Or are we assuming that they still know absolutely nothing and they're living in this potential quarantine zone not asking what their children have been doing for two years? 

Lastly, Max. IDK if they’ll just hand wave away the fact that she’d be in a coma for two years. But most coma patients who recently came to consciousness can’t get up, start running, and chasing monsters. Maybe they’ll keep her in a coma for the whole season, or the ending part will mirror S2 a bit with them having to protect her. Maybe Max is helping fight Vecna in Vecna’s head. Regardless, she has to be addressed, and I’m just saying but every time we THINK someone is dead they show up again pretty quick. 

Of course the Max element could parallel the saving Will from S1, and thus she really isn’t back until the end, but… something tells me this is not what is going to be happening. It’s a gut feeling. I feel like Max will be more like Hppper and come back quickly.

Option 3: Time Skip Happens After Ep 1

I’m not going to say that this is a bad idea. We would be able to establish any and all the conversations that need to be had before the time skip: El and Mike, parents, and Max. We could get the establishment of what the military plans to do. We also could get an explanation on why Vecna doesn’t just end the world (shout out to Dustin and Nancy who will figure this out). 

It would mirror Ep1 of S1, in the case that the majority of the plot really starts to take place after the time skip. 

The single episode could wrap up all the loose ends and give us a reason, but it might not have the time to address the other underlying conflicts. Namely this is: Lucas and Mike, Mike and Will, El’s headspace, Jonathan and Nancy, and Dustin’s headspace. Do I think that they could jam all of this into a 1hr episode too? Maybe? Let’s give them all 5min scenes; that’s 25min. Lets say that the ElxMike, Parents, and Max plots have only 5 min for reasons (which is really short for what needs to be said). That’s a total of 40min. So we have 5 min for the military involvement. 5 min for Nancy and Dustin figuring things out for Vecna needing to heal and the time they have.

If we are operating that the episode is 60min, then that is 50 min spent on all of these things, and not long either. There isn’t a lot of time to address any of these things. Maybe the episode is 70 min and I’m wrong, and they won’t be cutting the episodes substantially shorter. We’d have 20 min of leeway. It could work, especially since those additional side plots do not have to be long. 

lol maybe I’m expecting too much for before the time skip. 

Option 4: Time Skip Happens After Ep 2

TBH nothing much changes between option 3 and option 4, other than the fact that we get more time. This is also my choice: a mini arc before the final arc.

I really think the military showing up to address El will need to be a long scene. I can’t see it being less than 10 min. There is just so much here. They need to be show to find El. They have to have a fight with or for El. They need to be convinced that she is not the problem. Will they believe this? Likely not. OR El will have to run away and be hidden. This is likely (and would replicate S1), the question does then become where. I don’t have an answer for this, but I do think that it would be important to address this before the time skip, because they were literally right on El’s tail days before the time skip at the end of 4x9. 

Secondly the parents. I can’t see them getting to know what the children have been up to in the last few years as less than 10 min. In fact I see this taking a particular amount of time. The kids having to convince their parents to help actually could be a really good set up for the rest of the season (with them all having to come together). However having a sort of rallying together after the time skip could potentially be a bit strange, especially if there is a quarantine. Like wouldn’t their parents be asking a whole lot more questions?

I also wouldn’t be surprised in Dustin’s mother wanted to leave but Dustin was like we can’t. This doesn’t work after the time skip. Now this could be a big plot thing for the whole of S5, with them having to admit their issues to their parents, but still if their town is under quarantine, are the parents really just NOT asking questions? Are Joyce and Hopper really covering this whole time like, yeah nothing is wrong? This doesn’t have to be before the Time Skip. But if there are 2eps before the TimeSkip, this could be the basis of the plot of this 2ep minor arc.

El and Mike. This needs to happen and where it could be a quick thing, something tells me that it won’t be and we will see their reactions to the break up. This leads Mike to two potential conversations for Mike. One, he confronts Will about the painting and the fact that Will lied to him that the painting was commissioned by El. After Will so cleverly hid that he was in love with Mike, I don’t think it’s likely that he’ll just say it outright. This would cause tension between them because Will never lies to Mike (this would lead to Will talking to his mother and/or Jonathan) Two, Mike talking with his mother about why Will lied and his relationship with El. Do I think this could happen after the time skip? Yea, but if the Will talk happens here I have a feeling that Mike will need to decompress. Mike will have a lot of emotions he’d need to address. Or Mike just internalizes it for the next two years, and doesn’t address it. TBH that second option seems a lot like Mike lol.

Meanwhile El’s headspace in specific needs to be addressed. She’s angry and she’s distraught about Max. El would need to talk to someone about her powers and that she needs to get stronger faster, because she wants to save Max. This person probably will be Hopper. He would need to convince her that going too fast is going to burn her out, thus she needs to slow down — that she doesn’t have to race to grow up (important for themes). This specific idea doesn’t work after the time skip. If El is rushing around after a 2 year time skip, someone telling her “you can slow down” is just…No. Girl already took 2 years preparing. What do you mean she needs to slow down now that the final battle is here? No. The slowing down to grow up aspect could still work, but it's not as much of a metaphor with her powers lol.

This message only works before the time skip, which means we need to see El rushing and pushing herself before the time skip. This needs an establishment of at least a few quick scenes and then the talk with Hopper. She needs a good father figure who needs to tell her she doesn’t need to grow up so fast — or El talks with Joyce, which would lead Joyce to realizing what happened with Jonathan. I probably need to do a whole post about El’s arc, and how I see it in S5. 

Jonathan and Nancy need a talk. This won’t be an easy convo. We’ve been waiting for this talk for all of S4. AND we need to have it addressed what the two plan to do now that there is a rip in the sky. Are they going to college? No? This doesn’t have to be long, tbh, but them talking about their relationship actually might be, especially if Jonathan deflects. If there is a time skip, we have to assume that they will have talked about it. What’s the point in teasing it out as an issue between the two of them if the resolution won’t be shown to the audience? 

Dustin needs time to mourn. Point blank. Mike probably does too, because he was close to Eddie too.

Steve and Nancy need to talk about that bombshell that Steve put in Nancy’s lap before the end fight in S4. This will be an emotional talk, I think. Might not be addressed until after the skip (which is a lot of baggage), in which case Nancy might be avoiding Steve.

We need to find out what happened to Max. Otherwise why leave us with the empty space? I wouldn’t be surprised if El visits Mx in the hospital too. IMO if we have the two eps before the time skip, we’ll get Max waking up.

Dustin and Nancy need a little time to figure out how much time they might have before Vecna gets back. I wouldn’t be surprised if they can’t figure it out, and El is like I need to get stronger now, faster. Then they find something. This allows the audience to know: okay this is why the two year time skip makes sense? Okay?

Lucas and Mike need to talk. I’m going to have a whole post about this. TLDR however, is that these two NEED to talk. Mike was drifting away from Lucas. Mike thought Lucas was changing. The two need to talk about their friendship BEFORE the time skip in order to help establish the ending (if it is about coming together in the end). Lucas is so afraid of losing Mike. Mike on the flip side probably has no clue about this because he’s so focused on Will and El. Mr. Oblivious needs it slapped in his face, and while they could have the talk after the Time Skip, I personally think it needs to be had before. We need to have it established to Mike that he’s been a shit friend, so that he can work on it in the Time Skip. When we see them two years later we can see how much work he has put into being a good friend, for real this time — and a better person. Also we can see how he respects whatever new interests that Lucas has. Having it the first talk between the two after the time skip could work, but I personally think it works better before. 

Now do I think that any and all of this HAS to be before the time skip? No. Do I think that at some point that most of these things will be addressed? Yes. I just think that they work better before the time skip. Roughly the same things happen in Option 3 and 4, but the difference is that Option 4 gives them a bit more time to breathe than pushing them all into one episode. 

This would make the first two episodes a whole mini arc. If you think that this covers too much and that it could be addressed over the course of the other 6 episodes, here are other things that have to happen.

I could go on. And like this is just knowing what we know as possibilities of what will be in the season. 

[heiterbroward]

#TangsIsAPlague

Um, so to start off, let's address the fact that Jeronica are being consistently portrayed as pathetic this season! V is pining after Bald meanwhile Jarhead is making up Bughead edits in his head. The question is...why? Like why still? Is stuff like that supposed to be a Bughead or Varchie crumb? Bc at this point, it would only count as such if it came from Barchie's pov. Why can't they just drop it and let Jeronica actually move on? Jughead ignores Tabby for weeks on end, and V is worried about who's endgame during the apocalypse. Like um, ladies...snap out of it!

Kinda just seems mean-spirited at this point, too. Like Roberto Sasquatch is bitter bc they had to do 4 seasons of BugVarchie since he was too much of a coward to go against fanservice for the Bughead stans. So now they have to rub it in every chance they get and make Jughead and Veronica (mostly Veronica) look like fools. I mean, look at her performance in this ep...girl! Can't even defend that, sweets. Most cringe since her rendition of "Carry the Torch" when she didn't know who it was about. And she's gonna go on about "I'm a glorified party planner and have no social life...but I'm fighting for my friends!" Like how do those things go together, V? It's true, everyone only goes to you when they need something. Someone please get this girl some actual friends. She's having a nervous breakdown! Here's to the ladies who lunch! Please have mercy on my girl during these difficult times.

And it's all to overcompensate for their bad writing and lack of build up for Barchie in the first place. Their s5 plot made no sense. Archie chose Veronica in the Next to Normal ep and even wanted to be just casual w her before he even considered Betty, just like how he chose a chance to pursue a married Veronica who may not even be interested over pursuing something serious w Betty. Do I think this should have even happened? Not really. Varchie never should have even been a thing after the time jump, and they should have just started w Barchie and given Archie's "love triangle w Chad" plot to Reggie. But Varchie is what they chose to write, so...they can't just act like things didn't happen how they did. And this is from someone that genuinely did and wants to like Barchie as a couple, but the story they're giving them is only good if you make it up in your head - if you just ship the IDEA of Barchie instead of paying attention to what they actually say and do on screen. It's obvious that Betty is and always has been in love w the Scarlet Beast, but when will he show anything toward her that is strictly romantic and can't be interpreted as just a deep love and friendship bond? They are best friends and there is a sexual element, but where is the romantic element? He's never been afraid to wear his heart on his sleeve in the past. I disagree that Betty is the one holding back. Archie didn't dump Veronica specifically for Betty (which would have been more meaningful). He was just certain that he wanted to stay in Riverdale since he gave up on his individual desires and wants to exist as the thematic embodiment of Fred. But is he certain that Betty is the one he wants to build a life with? If so, I would like him to demonstrate that instead of it just seeming like he decided to give it a go bc they both decided to stay in Riverdeuce.

Another thing is why do they have to act so high and mighty about killing Percival? Hiram only stopped after he was dead. Nothing but death can stop these types of all-powerful, relentless villains. Plus, not everyone has the privilege to be so morally perfect, valuing principles over people. Archie is lucky that Grenade Heather knows Sabrina or else his reluctance to kill would have just resulted in the deaths of half the townspeople. Is it not worth getting a little blood on your hands to save the people and town you care about? I'm sure the show will find a loophole where they won't have to kill him and can win anyway, but still! Meanwhile, Betty just killed someone last episode. I hope his morals aren't too black and white for someone like her bc I don't want her to be on pins and needles, worried about fucking up bc Archie will change his view of her if she does. And if he doesn't, then he's a crypohit!

Anyways, like Toni finna be rude as hell to V all last season then come ask her to plan a last-minute wedding? Da fuq? And ask Cheryl to officiate? She was highkey a jerk this ep! Omg and Fangs' vows? It was like half a sentence, girl, and u had to write it down? Does anyone even like Fangs anymore? I feel like ya'll just liked him bc of Sweet Pea and when ppl pretended to care about Kangs. Told yinz he should've stayed dead in s2 that one time!

P. S. I think everyone died at the reception bc they all thought back to V's performance and just couldn't take it. Also, why were everyone's outfits so ugly this ep? Js.

[kimodraw]

can you pleaseee tell us more about the jess was actually ruby headcanon?

I'm definitly not the first person to come up with it! I can't find the post where i first saw that headcannon though sorry.

So i always loved the reveal that Brady was possesed by a demon, and was the one who introduced Sam to Jess then killed her, right? Real traumatic, takes a relationship Sam trusted and crushes it, a cool tv moment. Basically the Jess as Ruby headcanon takes that whole thing and pushes it to its paroxism: Jess was possesed the whole time too. This means Ruby was a girlboss gaslighter who faked a relationship with sam two whole times! And he doesn't exactly get why he trusts her that easily, when he really shouldn't in s4, it's almost like he knows her already... She'd reveal it in her final s5 monologue (i drew a thing abt it a while ago (cw blood and nudity:under the cut) while gloating, and Sam's crushed right? It also plays into the idea of the forces of hell and heaven manipulating their lives from the start, which i think is one of the best theme in supernatural (destiny vs the rejection of it, free will and all that) I think sam's reaction to ruby's betrayal was a bit anticlimactic too? I'd have liked it if he liked her more, (maybe if even she liked him a little? idk but i would have loved them to have more depth (but hey, this is supernatural lol)), and thought about or mentionned her at all in s5 lmao. This is also why i'm still sad she never came back, my girl should have gotten to gloat more. It's really a fucked up headcannon because it means most of sam's relationship have an aspect of deceipt about them (counting dean for the gadreel thing, and cas for these tags:

hence the comic i did. Sorry for all the rambling, i have. a lot of sam thoughts, hope this was clear enough! Basically:

also!! a lot of my thinking on this emerged from my new favorite fanfic author: a_good_soldier on ao3! They deal with sam’s trauma in a completely gut wrenching way im in love with their writing

[emblazons]

hey marie <3 I've been experiencing byler doubt as of late for some strange reason?? And you're one of my favorite analysts so what would you say is like ... the moment or thing that made you actually consider Byler would be endgame?

oooh, I'm sorry to hear that! Honestly there are still some days when the weight of discourse in this fandom gives me little flairs of discomfort about the state of their relationship in S5, even though revisiting the show itself almost immediately assuages most of my fears because fuller context for me has always been most comforting? But...hmm.

I think more than anything—and these two points are really what my "favorite byler things" hinge on, more than the moments themselves—I first remember that the entire show can be subjected to the same scrutiny and level of detail as Byler (even independent of it), which helps me remember that seeing and even looking for evidence of the relationship between them isn't just me indulging my desire to ship them—it's digging into something that The Duffers and the 2000-strong ST production team put there.

Things like them reusing the track Girls on Film to parallel an idea between two scenes with Nancy, paralleling moments of depression between El and Max to show us their bond even from a distance and using set design to show a character trait about Jonathan show that the little details I pick up on for byler are intentional the same way the rest of the show is...and I'm not being unduly invested looking for them, the way a lot of byler critics claim when they say byler's are "delusional" and "reading too much into it."

Second, I remember that I am the audience for the show according to the Duffer Brothers—that they've made clear that it's people like me they're catering to, who love movies, filmmaking and indulge their nerdiest interests even when it means being "less adult" than one perhaps should be in the eyes of the people around them—on top of the fact that they have repeatedly said their story is mapped out and intentional, which means what I see on the screen and put together from "studying" it was designed that way, and isn't just a series of random choices or Finn "deciding" to make flirty eyes at Noah (lmfao).

Once I keep those to things at the fore of my mind, it's easier to accept that what I saw on screen even before I deep dived the whole show were 1) designed for me to catch and 2) intentional...which leaves me with the ability to trust that all of these things—

Mike and Will showing repeated and unprompted signs of attraction to each other mutually, while showing signs of deep emotional connection outside of just the simple bounds of friendship

Mike re-prioritizing his relationship with Will, to the point of saying he was over-invested in El, while also asking Will to be closer to him (which he kept up, all the way to the very last shot of the season)

Will's romantic feelings now being blended inherently with the painting, even though the painting could have easily been written as a platonic gesture if the duffers wanted it to be

Mlvn’s communication (verbal and nonverbal) breaking down in S4 without a single bit of promoting from the audience before it dropped, to the point where Will’s feelings are the romantic ones underpinning Mike’s perception of El & El is no longer behaving romantically forward him, even given the “I love you” that was meant to resolve the tension in their relationship

The fact that I can connect these events to several other moments across all seasons, because the concepts and relational dynamics aren’t new to S4—only the context is

—are good enough reason to believe that the story is headed toward romantic!Byler, while actively moving away from romantic!mlvn.

I think, at the end of the day, the reason why I believe in Byler is because I’m familiar with The Duffers as storytellers, have been invested in their show since S1, and Byler makes sense for the show thematically—it fits into the narrative, doesn’t require any wild jumps to recognize (neither does the end of mlvn, to be honest) and—probably most importantly—the details like color coding, where people are standing in the final shot, and even the insanity of that one way sign into the closet Mike has are just details designed to bring life to the story…not what I’m basing my understanding of the story on itself.

Basically: I believe in byler because that’s where the story is pointing, and I feel I have a solid grasp on the story and characters in several sections of the show, not just the byler one. Revisiting the show over the course of the year has only strengthened my sense of that—and even when I do doubt, it’s the show itself that reminds me why I believed it in the first place, rather than anything that goes on throughout the fandom side of things.

I don't know if that helps you, but it's what keeps my confidence steady throughout the ups and downs of fandom! And also...literally nothing confused me worse than vol ii when it dropped...and now I feel like it presented some of the most important moments for building toward romantic!byler, so. I feel pretty confident in my interpretation of the events of the show now lmao.

thanks for the ask!

and also...outside of all this: the moment that made me catch onto byler as an option fully as an "invested GA" was Will and Mike at the airport, because...that shit was crazy to watch for the first time honestly. My jaw was on the floor like "oh shit, they're really doing this?" and it just. never came back up the rest of the season LOL

[raayllum]

The Cycle Speculation

So I was thinking about this post in regards to the cycle restarting and how TDP loves to parallel structures with escalation of stakes amid differing scenarios with similar dilemmas, and it got me thinking about how the Cycle has been perpetuated over the centuries / course of the show thus far, and the commonalities between the objects/spells used, and well... 

Let’s strap on our thinking caps and wheel out a conspiracy board, which is to say: tracking spells, generational parallels, the symbolism of the Heart in TDP, and how I think the Cycle will be perpetuated in S5 / S6 - and possibly how part of it began, re: Aaravos and the Key. AKA my torment is over and I think I may have, honest to God, figured out what the Cube is and how it could be used thematically and plot wise going forward.

Tracking spell 

So tracking spells are surprisingly important in TDP. They don’t seem to be at first glance, as often times the main trio are just wandering along until they find the right spot, or are embedded more generally into their world’s geography than anywhere extremely specific (most of S1, parts of S2, etc). However, tracking spells are crucial in both Claudia and Soren’s tracking spell to find the trio at the end of S1, bleeding into early S2. 

We see the tracking spell repeated when Viren is searching for the magma titan, down to needing a piece of the victim (the Magma Titan, Rayla’s braid) down to the glowing jar, before finding the exact Titan the piece was from. 

This journey, of course, sets off the death of the three queens, most notably Queen Sarai, whose death causes Harrow and Viren to perpetuate the cycle further in killing Thunder. But even more than that, The same jar used in this spell also coincidentally houses Sarai’s last breath until it’s used to fell Thunder.

This of course also made me think of the Key of Aaravos, which according to Callum’s Spellbook and featuring screencaps from the show, is routinely being pulled somewhere, leaving the same lines in the sand every time. Upon reaching Xadia, the marks got longer, although it is not clear exactly what direction they are in. We do know that the rolling of the cube always ends with the Star rune being faced most directly. 

Which is to say: the previous things we’ve seen pulled rather unknowingly have all been parts or pieces of a previous tracking spell, and beyond that, ordinarily symbols of love. Rayla’s braid symbolized Ethari’s love and affection for her; the piece of the Magma Titan allows for its home to be invaded and for it to be murdered; Sir Sparklepuff is able to lead his strange new little family to Rex Igneous through an innate sense of knowing from Aaravos, and is clearly a part of Aaravos as well. Which goes to support that whatever the cube is, it is, or holds, a piece of whatever it is being pulled to, most likely Aaravos himself (after all, it is his Key and unlocks something in Xadia). But more on that later.

For now, let’s look at the generational parallels. 

Viren, Harrow, Sarai / Callum, Ezran, Rayla

At first glance, it is very easy to slot the kids just into a single generational role, which is to say: Viren-Callum as high mages and brothers to the king; Harrow and Ezran as the actual brother kings; Rayla and Sarai as a compassionate moral through line. However, I don’t think it’s quite that simple for a number of reasons. 

I’ve touched on it before, but all three kids are very much Harrow split down the middle and then some, each embodying and amplifying certain aspects:

Rayla carrying on Harrow’s martyr complex and hope for redemption / wanting to make a difference; by and large, personality wise she is the most similar. More in depth parallels here if you are interested, as well as the theme of what’s worth dying for

Ezran of course has Harrow’s responsibilities as king, but where being king was ultimate an experience of chains and a lack of freedom, Ezran is a child king and finds genuine liberation in his work. He is also the direct manifestation of Justice, paralleling Harrow’s assertion that “Above all else, I must be a Just king” 

Callum wrestles most directly with the theme of Freedom in relation to Harrow, specifically the freedom to make choices and give up the temptation with Dark Magic. More discussion regarding this here. Callum also gets Harrow’s emphasis on fairness (in relation to justice, but also as its own thing thematically, re: fair opportunity within the system outside the accident of birth)

Additionally, Rayla has plenty parallels with Viren as well, with Ezran perhaps best embodying Sarai’s appeal for personhood: “Does it think? Does it feel? Does it have a family?” Furthermore, Callum also has parallels to Sarai; he really is his mother’s son.

But like, what’s the Point of all this? If there’s so many and Viren, Sarai, and Harrow all had specific places in perpetuating the Cycle largely in spite of their best efforts (Viren hoped by killing Zym that “all of this will finally, truly be over”) than how does this impact the current trio, thematically? 

Going into S4 and in terms of behaviour / choices, Callum undoubtedly has the most in common with Viren and Harrow, specifically Viren with his loved ones (“I have always been ready to do anything to protect my family, however dangerous, however vile”) and being generally fine with the concept of dying to protect them, not necessarily out of any sense of rightness the way Harrow did. Callum’s S4 arc also mirrors Harrow’s arc in 3x06; trying to move on and focus on peace, while being undeniably angry and furious over the loss of someone he loves. So he’d be Viren-Harrow in about that order.

Rayla has likewise become more like Viren (willing to leave those needing help behind in 2x06 / 4x05), although her parallels to Harrow from the previous seasons are so strong I think they overrule. Additionally, her hair style is an exact match to Sarai’s old hair (the braid-bun combo, the three piece over her cheeks, etc) as well as her place in Callum’s life as a cautious moral through line. Moreover, her and Sarai’s pictures alone are hung up closely together. While we haven’t see this set of parallels come to fruition yet, I think we may in S5. So I’d place her tentatively in Harrow-Sarai. 

Last but not least, we have Ezran, who I think is thematically embodying Sarai-Harrow with blessedly none of Viren, trying to carve a better path forward even if he feels in over his head, even if it will be exceedingly difficult, and even if it will take “decades of hard work”. He knows that there’s no monster he can slay to solve all his problems and unlike Rayla, he is not going to try. 

So loosely, we either have Viren-Callum, Harrow-Rayla, Sarai-Ezran, or Viren-Callum, Sarai-Rayla, and Harrow-Ezran. Just as Arc 1 was about correcting and making up for their parents’ mistakes, it seems that Arc 2 is well underway to be about trying to make up for their own mistakes (Ezran ignoring anger, Callum trying to ignore his, Rayla leaving and more). Which is to say: all of this has happened before and all shall happen again. 

Haunts The Very Heart of Xadia

Hearts are kind of important in TDP. There’s the repeated motif, used most commonly but not exclusively by Rayla, of a hand or first to the heart, also employed by Callum, Ezran, Viren, Terry, and many others. Most often this is in the context of a loved one or reaffirming pain / a decision to make. 

However, it goes deeper than that. (Illusion) Viren and Avizandum are both stabbed directly in the heart (“That was her spear, my mom’s, and my stepdad put it into his heart”) which is particularly apt given it was revenge for killing “the love of King Harrow’s life, Queen Sarai.” This moment is also directly harkened back to in the majority of the S4 openings, although Callum’s, which could have been very different, also features his own more Star magic-y stone spell beginning in his heart.

There is also Ezran’s big speech from 4x03 that invokes the heart specifically as a call to action and compassion, stating: 

 It’s not that easy or simple. Because people are still hurting and they are still angry. We can’t ignore that, or pretend it will go away. Somehow, we have to hold it all in our hearts at the same time. We have to acknowledge the weight of the pain and loss, but open up our eyes and allow ourselves to hope and maybe forgive and love again. We have to give today’s children a chance to inherit a future filled with peace. To give them that, we have to hold pain and love in our hearts at the same time.

Which, one of S4′s big theme in particular is set up and discussion of when to, and when is it possible, to reconcile dualities, but more on that later. 

The character most closely tied to this theme of Heart, in many ways, though is Rayla, from the very first episode.

My Heart for Xadia!

Your heart isn’t hard enough to do whatever it takes.

[To Ezran] You have a good heart. It’s super annoying. 

Before you left, I told Runaan you were too good hearted for the work of an assassin.

You have true courage, and a big heart.

My only allegiance is to my heart and those that know it. (Tales of Xadia bio)

I remember how I felt when my parents left me to join the Dragonguard, like PART OF MY HEART WAS MISSING and I would never feel right again. (Dear Callum letter) 

Please don’t let this hurt too much. But, if it does—if you feel that soft aching—know that that piece of your heart isn’t missing. It’s not missing at all, Callum: I’m carrying it with me! Always. (Dear Callum letter) 

One of the most critical things S4 did was establish Rayla’s importance in the future outcome of Callum being possessed by Aaravos. Both that she will likely be what helps him ultimately break out of it, but moreover that she will do so at great possible cost. This comes back to “You let him live but you killed us all” and the possible consequences of sparing Callum at any cost, in a classic Duty VS Love conflict. Additionally, it also pushes Rayla precisely into the position and role she was supposed to fill after a season of belief that “We can’t save everyone” and being taunted by Aaravos, specifically, that she was incapable of killing. So it’s going to hit doubly if it becomes one of her cornerstone conflicts next season.

But wait, as I always say, there’s more. 

Rayla identifying her parents and herself as a missing piece of her and Callum’s hearts, respectively, as opposed to the implied entire heart exchange between Runaan and Ethari (“My heart goes out with this one”) struck me as interesting, particularly when it’s the only time we’ve seen that separate signifier is in Rayla’s letter itself. So I was thinking about Rayla, and Rayla-Aaravos parallels per usual, and how the Cube glows a pure white in the 4x04 intro, just like the falling star when it makes the proper side Star sigil in the “Mystery of Aaravos” typography, as well as a remark from TDP’s head writer Devon that the Key may not be exactly what we think/thought it is, and...

I think the Key may hold Aaravos’ missing chest piece—a literal missing piece of his heart. 

This is for a few different reasons. The first is that we know Aaravos had his chest piece in the 1x01 intro, and at one point he lost it. The intro appears to happen during the exiling of the humans, but it’s hard to tell whether that’s actually accurate given the singularity of the framing. If not for it, I’d say he put it in the Key to give to the human founder of Elarion as an act / presentation of love, that predates the fall of Elarion and subsequent expulsion (although we’ll return to her/them in a minute). 

Although it would be tempting to say definitively that he lost it at the Fall of Elarion, Aaravos still walked Xadia for centuries, and the intro we see him in seemingly belongs to this, and he did not leave with the other Startouch elves. Zubeia frames it as though he was a Star until his treachery was uncovered and not that he Fell prior but was accepted past that point regardless. We also know that Aaravos isn’t at his full strength inside the mirror, even though the Star arcanum is all about time and space, and it’s hard to tell how his powers have been restricted otherwise. With all that in mind, it’s far more likely Aaravos was at his full power until Zubeia and the other archdragons /accomplices surprised him, ripped his heart out, and then tossed him into the mirror. Therefore, it means that it isn’t the mirror or its dimension necessarily keeping him restricted, but the fact the piece of his arcanum - his quasar diamond - was taken from him in the first place and its resulting physical / magical effects. 

This makes sense for a few reasons.

A villain who is literally heartless is very juicy symbolically

Light has also been associated with bad things across the series, not solely good things (the specific Sunfire staff test of the Light to decide your fate for example)

Not only is Aaravos currently terrifying, but reclaiming his heart piece in some capacity would either 1) put him at full power, 2) allow him to get himself out of the mirror past that point on his own, or 3) both

Aaravos’ prison itself is surely powerful, but Aaravos himself is ultimately even more powerful and at this point, the most powerful character in the show:

As well as having multiple layers of thematic precedent. There is Aanya’s ring, also featured in this episode, given to Harrow and then passed onto Aanya after her mothers’ deaths, kept inside a sealed six-petalled flower, just as Harrow passes the six sided cube down to Harrow. 

Then, there is also the fact we know, thanks to interviews, that a lot of Aaravos’ actions are motivated by a relationship/bond he had eons ago, presumably with a human and more specifically, the human founder of Elarion. If he loved this human deeply (particularly romantically, due to his short birthday story featuring being given an apple by a human, which is a very loaded symbol and almost always used for romance) and losing her/them is part of what motivated him to begin his thousand year long manipulation play, his heart would undoubtedly be a very important symbol. We’ve seen numerous characters to questionable or vile things for their loved ones or in the name of revenge (Viren with his family; Harrow using dark magic to avenge Sarai). Aaravos doing all of this out of a long broken heart would be very thematically in line, a heart that now only feels pain rather than love. 

We also know, pretty blatantly, that Egyptian mythology has been an influence on the series (Ibis’ name and association with Callum; the centre of an ankh being a mirror and a diamond, just like the quasar diamonds). One of the traditions in Egyptian mythology was holding up a dead soul’s heart and weighing it against Ma’at’s Feather of Truth. If it was heavier than the feather, you were wicked and condemned. This makes the Orphan Queen holding it (whether it would eventually contain or already did contain) fall in line, as we get this voice over from Zubeia regarding the moment Aaravos’ treachery came to light and the truth was discovered:

This would mean then that the Key is both a key of Aaravos’ jail and a piece of Aaravos - a double meaning, a double key, related to its prisoner and its owner. It would fall perfectly in line with everything we’ve learned about the Key up to this point as well as its symbolism and foreshadowing while building on it with some twists and even higher stakes than we already had.

There would also be a few layers of delicious irony.

First, we’ve seen that dark magic has limits that it cannot overcome on its own, but presumably can with Aaravos’ help. Thereby, more than being offered unlimited power solely from dark magic in Callum’s 2x08 dream, he’s being offered unlimited power because of the Key as well. There’s also Callum holding what would contain a quasar diamond in the first place while literally asking if there is no gem for Star magic, not knowing that he has one in the very palm of his had (“Having knowledge isn’t the same as knowing knowledge” after all). 

Last but not least, there is the fact that concept art of Aaravos, shared when he was identified all the way back in S1, has his chest piece being far more akin to a literal diamond than even the upside down Star arcanum it holds now.

Then, another factor I would be remiss not to mention because 1) I’m me and 2) it could be a very cool connection is that if the Key is indeed Aaravos’ missing piece, it makes this shot of Rayla when she re-enters Callum’s life in 4x02 all the more meaningful and make all the more sense in its framing.

While the framing is pretty blatant, given that Rayla is literally haloed in light seconds after Callum was saying, “In darkness, gaze upon a Fallen Star.” It clearly indicates that she is tied to this plot line of ‘darkness’ (which 4x07 confirms with “I need you to kill me [...] what if I’m on a path of darkness?” “Then take another path dummy”) even before it truly ‘begins’ in an inciting incident sense. So far so good, very straight forward. But even when seeing this for the very first time I wondered, why the fuck is the cube there? Because it absolutely doesn’t need to be. There were plenty of other scenes (like the one immediately preceding it for example) or times where Stella making the Star primal glow could’ve be shown. Especially since in the above shot many people are bound to be distracted by Rayla’s return and new appearance and not even paying attention to the cube held by her little monkey. 

But, if the cube is the missing piece of Aaravos’ heart, and Rayla, as we’ve already said, is canonically / has identified herself as the missing piece of Callum’s heart, well, placing them together to foreshadow this specific importance of the cube makes a lot more sense. It’s a still a bit of a stretch right now because it requires reading Rayla’s letter, which is decidedly additional supplementary material, but the supplementary material is routinely used to foreshadow things exactly like this (Rex eating a jelly tart for example) so it also wouldn’t be out of line. Then as always I have my theory of Rayla’s life being exchanged for the cube, which if this heart parallel is true, would just make more sense and tie a tighter parallel than the whole thing already does.

Last but not least, there is the way this brings the Magma Titan plot line back full force thematically, and I actually think this is one of the most interesting parts, if not the most interesting part, of the whole theory.

It’s been previously accepted, generally, that in spite of the personal pain and moral ambiguity in hunting the Magma Titan, its murder was a necessary evil and its personhood debatable at best (cue Harrow and Sarai’s opposing views to begin with). I always figured that the biggest way this plot line would be used thematically, beyond a good example of the Cycle and Sarai’s death, is when Viren effectively turns his own soldiers into Magma Titans in 3x07 Hearts of Cinder. He strips them and they strip themselves of their own personhood and humanity while they prepare to do the same on an untold scale in Xadia. 

However, if Aaravos’ heart was forcefully ripped out against his will, it would ask the exact question I’ve always posited when trying to get people to consider the messy ethical ramifications of the Magma Titan: how sentient does something or someone have to be before this would be considered organ harvesting? Would you view the spell the same if it had the Magma Titan had been some undeniably more human, like an elf, or even an elven child? Yes, I’m sure we’ll see precisely why Aaravos truly had to be imprisoned, but I think almost anyone would feel some unease about a violation on that level, if not sympathy. (And then of course the added layers of irony of Avizandum attacking the humans and killing the queens for ripping out the heart of the Magma Titan when he did the very same to Aaravos three centuries prior, if it was indeed lost pre-immediate imprisonment / Viren being compared to Avizandum in the intro and beyond is a pin the show has to return to eventually. 

A heart (Thunder’s) for a heart (Harrow’s in Sarai) for a heart (the Magma Titan). A heart (Aaravos’ for ‘Elarion’) for a heart (the cube) for a heart (Callum’s in Rayla). 

We also can’t ignore the emphasis placed on childhood and games with the cube. Love is often treated or thought of as a game outside of the series (blasting “the winner takes it all” and “blank space” among many others, but mostly “love’s not a game” from Crazy Ex Girlfriend), but the concept of children’s hearts are an important part of the show’s construction of how to break the Cycle. The Book One novelization lays this out very plainly with (although I’m too lazy to grab my copy and am paraphrasing) “Children see with their hearts, not just their eyes.” 

Aaravos’ childhood and possible loss of childhood innocence/idealism is definitely something we are going to explore given baby Aaravos’ prominent placement on the Mystery of Aaravos’ star chart map. Aaravos playing a game was largely absent as a motif in the first arc save for whenever Rayla would speak about the cube in seasons 1-2, with S4 cementing the motif more firmly with Aaravos himself directly. Aaravos losing his heart in that sense and any hope he had left to be something Different than what he currently is would be truly heartbreaking, and showing that you can always undo what’s been done. You may be able to take elves out of coins and a dragon egg back home to its mother, but some things are too ruined beyond repair; a heart will never fit the same ever again, literally. 

The Cycle

So what does this mean, going forward?

Well, as other people have pointed out, Harrow doing dark magic to avenge Sarai is the core thing that started the current Cycle the characters had to directly overcome, with Sarai’s death both a ghost and an inspiration and likewise, Callum doing dark magic to protect Rayla is what is allowing Aaravos to control / manipulate him into playing into his hands, and we know Aaravos will ultimately be successful / Callum has to fail in some capacity, otherwise Aaravos would never get out. 

Therefore if we look at it even further back to see what started the Cycle, we return to that continual violation of having your heart ripped / being heartbroken, literally or figuratively. The Magma Titan’s heart being ripped out began this portion of the cycle, so Aaravos’ heart being literally ripped out began the much earlier portion, figuratively perhaps began his spinning of the wheel a millennia plus earlier, and it being restored will begin the next.

How’s that for Consistency?

Alternatives 

As always, I try to do my best not to present a theory without any alternatives, if I can think of them at the time. The other main option, it seems, would be the Key not being used / having its secrets discovered in S5, which would greatly expand its possibilities. 

This seems unlikely though, given the emphasis on Ocean and Earth when it comes to unlocking the key’s secrets whenever it is mentioned, as well as the fact that Aaravos’ prison is in the Sea of the Cast Out (and possibly literally underwater to begin with). This makes the scope of what the Key could unlock far more limited because it has less seasons to maneuver. 

Then there is always the possibility it unlocks the Star Nexus or something along those lines, but unless it was given to Aaravos by other Startouch elves (before he began to hate him? Or when they didn’t know he did?) its connection to him is less unclear, but not impossible. This could be something that is revealed in S5 and we don’t see the key actually used until S6, particularly if it’s Book Six: Star, but it makes me wonder why give the Key such a heavy and consistent ominous foreshadowing (again, usually with Rayla as the mouth piece), the negative associations thus far given to the game motif, and why not call it the Key of the Stars, as TDP as no problem creating things like the Corona of the Heavens when they want something to be associated with Star Magic and not our favourite evil starry elf boy. 

With all this in mind, thank you for reading and I hope you enjoyed this meta. As for the key and the theory itself, what do you think? Am I on to something, do you have your own thoughts and alternatives I haven’t considered here? Do you just want Aaravos to be Big Sad and S5 Big Dramatic? Let me know! I would love to hear them. If you are interested in more posts related to this theory, I will link my specific tag for it here in case of perusal. 

And last but not least, Dragons out, peace!

[katsidhe]

I'm not sure if you are still doing the "vs" meme, but I had a thought about your comments on Sam as constantly editing his relationship with Dean, Lucifer, himself, etc. So, Chuck's scenes with Sam where you got this real sense of him being Sam's author, vs Sam's scenes with himself in hallucinations where he's resigned about their character, if that makes sense? Or just any thoughts that Sam is like that character that get away from you and that's why the story isn't working lol.

Hmm. This is a little bit difficult for me to parse, and I think some of it is because, even in universe, it’s hard for me to see Chuck as Sam’s author. Or Dean’s, or even someone like Michael’s.

For a being with Chuck’s power, it’s hard to differentiate creation and characterization, I guess. But, like, Chuck really doesn’t seem to force any of it. The only things that we ever watch him author are situations, not people. Not even when he gets frustrated, not even when he really wants to, in s15, does he actually use his power to change anyone’s mind or character. One idle thought, and he could bend Sam and Dean to do whatever he wanted. But he doesn’t. 

S15 is extremely clumsy about this distinction, which is one of its many issues. I have some messy and half-formulated thoughts about SPN’s God and Gnosticism, and about Chuck as a manifestation of the demiurge—the material Creator, who is ignorant, or malevolent, or misguided. He created the universe and mankind, but he is fundamentally separated from the non-material or the spiritual, which is a resounding flaw that creates or perpetuates evil. This is much, much closer to what Chuck actually is than the Gnostic or Christian Gods (unknowable/omnipotent/benevolent) or most other monotheistic Gods.

So I view Chuck along those lines—he is the demiurge, a being fundamentally disconnected from and even envious of the spirit of those he creates, even as he can change the material world that he created however he pleases. Lucifer defied him, and he liked that, and he authored situations around it. Sam defied him in s5, and he liked that, and authored situations around it. Until by s14 he didn’t like it anymore.

Now, in a more general sense, Sam as a “a character that got away” is really thematically pleasing to me, because it’s always Sam who is dissatisfied or pressed against the walls of the status quo. He struggles against the genre he’s placed in: he doesn’t want to be in a action show fighting the good fight, he doesn’t want to be the guy that saves the world, he doesn’t want to be the hero that Says No To Drugs. Whatever the surface-level thematic flavor of the season is, Sam is usually at odds with it, whether it’s “resisting temptation” in s4 or “being loyal” in s8.

He fails narratively, over and over—but in the end he wins the war. What Sam wants is a relationship with his brother, and safety, and survival, and some peace and quiet to carve out his life, and he gets all of that.

And all this happens in spite of and because of all of these times that Sam has edited himself to survive, whether with Lucifer or with Dean.

...I’m not sure if I’ve actually answered what you were asking, sorry! Feel free to follow up.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

The S11 Trailer - Analysis

Okay, let’s talk about the trailer. I’ll go through what I’m seeing shot by shot, and then focus on a couple of things that really stood out to me.

We start with Negan and Father Gabriel, with Negan looking distressed. FG asks him what’s wrong, and he says, “bad memories.” FG says, “of what?” We don’t hear Negan’s answer in the trailer.

Then we see the windmill in Alexandria, followed by horses running by Kelly and (I think) Magna. I think the horses will end up being important, as we see them again later. And this is really interesting. Take a moment to remember Buttons from S5, and I’ll come back to this.

Next, we see what I originally thought were overgrown street signs. But when I lightened this picture, I realized they’re not outdoor street signs. They’re indoor ones. Almost like the kind of thing you’d see at a massive mall or market or airport, directing you where to go. East Market. The “East” is jumping out at me as well.

Then we see Negan with a flashlight and other things in the underground tunnels from the sneak peek.

We see Daryl staring out over what I first thought as a mural. But when I lightened it, he’s really just looking down at a scene below him. If you look closely, below him on the left is a tank. So, at the end of 10x22, Carol said they were going to visit an old military base Daryl had found. I’m assuming this is it.

We see Judith, and then Daryl with mud on his face. This may be important. Keep this in mind. It looks a little like he’s covered himself either in red mud or perhaps walker guts.

Then we see various scenes of people fighting walkers and one person (we don’t see who) being bitten by one.

Then we see Negan dragging Maggie backward while she yells, “no!” I’ve mentioned this recently, but this is really interesting to me. It’s a nearly identical replay of Maggie being held back at the end of AOW (8x16) because Rick declared that Negan would live. Except this time, it’s Negan holding Maggie back from something else. The dynamic has changed. So, it makes me very curious to find out what he’s dragging her back from. It’s almost like he's trying to protect her.

There’s more fighting with walkers, and scenes from the underground subway tunnels. Most of these scenes are fast and it’s nearly impossible to tell exactly who is doing what or what’s going on.

This is also where we hear Daryl say, “I don’t leave anybody behind. Ever.” Because of Beth, we’re definitely side-eyeing that. In a way, it just proves that something happened to make Daryl believe Beth was dead and couldn’t be buried. This is him affirming that he would never have left her behind otherwise.

Then we see Kelly and Magna talking, and Kelly looking at a note that seems to have been written by Connie. It says, “Trapped with the dead. Walked with them for days. No light. No food. Little water.” Yeah, I’m kind of side-eyeing that note. It’s strange that Connie would write it and leave it but be nowhere around when Kelly finds it. (However, based on stuff we see later in the trailer, she does seem to have been kidnapped or taken prisoner.)

But more than that, the note feels thematic. Being trapped with the dead feels like a Beth thing. Walking with the dead is something we’ve seen a lot on the show. Michonne and her pets. The Whisperers, of course. Plenty of examples. And then the “no light, no food, no water” goes well with the drought and famine themes we’ve seen a lot. One of the most notable examples being in 5x10. I’m just saying.

Then more fighting with walkers, and we get the scene where Aaron says, “so you’re going to fight ghosts?” Followed by a teary-eyed Carol saying, “This is a path you don’t want to go down.”

My fellow theorists and I have discussed these a lot and who both Aaron and Carol might be talking to. I think there’s a good possibility that both may be Daryl. I’ve talked before about the possibility of him hearing something of Rick or Rick’s voice and wanting to go find him, but no one else believing him or that Rick is a live. Possibly questioning Daryl’s sanity. Both would go well with that idea.

Of course, that may be a little too convenient. Some people have suggested Carol might be talking to Maggie and trying to keep her from revenge on Negan. Or these could be secondary characters we won’t even care about overly much. No way to know.

Next, we see a person in a mask, with Dog standing near them, apparently watching Daryl. This is one scene that got our fandom very hyped up. I do have some things to say about it, so I’ll come back to it at the end.

We see lots of people running through the woods, a sickle hitting a tree. (I think it’s safe to assume that the sickle is a weapon/symbol of the Reapers.) And then a line of people in masks walking forward aggressively. Again, I’m assuming these are the Reapers. We’ve been told the trailer is misleading, so it may prove untrue, but I think it’s what we’re supposed to assume here.

We see more fighting and houses being broken into. Ezekiel fighting in a house and Eugene with bloodstains on his shirt. Then someone bound and hooded being dragged backward down a dark hallway. I’m thinking that’s Eugene.

Then we get a quick flash of what looks like feminine eyes behind a hood. These are what people assume could be Beth or Leah. And yes, they could be either. We do later see Maggie taking a skin mask off, so I think they could be her as well. It’s so quick, it’s pretty much impossible to identify them for sure.

The next scene is a super-tragic one. I’m pretty sure Dog is dying, guys. We hear what sounds like Dog whining in pain, as dogs do, and see a knife flash. Then Daryl turns around and screams, “no!” From descriptions of the episode, it sounds to me like Dog gets separated from the group and Daryl goes looking for him alone.

Some of us have wondered if this is when Daryl will “see” Leah again. When he’s on his own and it’s just him and her and Dog. That would, once again, suggest her being something only he can see. Just conjecture on our part as we really have no idea how things will play out, but it’s an idea we’ve batted around.

Anyway, it doesn’t look to me like Dog is going to survive. And while that SUCKS (poor Dog, poor Daryl ☹) because Dog is the embodiment of the Sirius symbolism, it does make a certain amount of sense that they might kill him before Beth reappears.

The other big deal about this is that it’s a clear parallel template to Beth. If Dog = Beth, she gets separated from group, Daryl goes searching for her, found her, but she apparently didn’t survive, dying right in front of him. (Or so he understands.) It kind of looks like the exact same thing will happen with Dog.

We then see a blood-covered knife hit the wall just under a frightened-looking Connie’s nose. She seems to be a captive or prisoner somewhere, and clearly her life is in danger. We also hear FG telling someone not to be scared and see what I assume is a Commonwealth soldier in an orange suit.

We also see a very decomposed walker tied to a tree. We’ve seen that pose a few times, and my mind always goes to the blond girl tied to the tree that Aaron and Daryl find in 5x15. So, chances are this will be very symbolic.

Then we see Daryl in front of some burning shipping containers, staring out at people. It’s not clear if the people he’s look at are members of TF, or perhaps enemies, but he doesn’t exactly look carefree.

Remember that in 10x17, he and Maggie and their group stayed in these same kinds of containers. Jadis also kept Rick in a similar once back in S8, so it’s a theme that’s been building.

We then here FG say, “God isn’t here anymore.” We see what looks like a walker but it’s crawling forward in a super creepy fashion, looking almost like a demon. Most walkers don’t move that way unless injured, so it makes me question whether this is a walker or a human pretending to be one.

We also see someone hung upside down by their ankles from an overhead pipe. I’m reminded of the Librarian guy in 6x16/7x01 who was hung over the bridge. Again, it’s just a theme we’ve seen before, but hard to interpret because the trailer gives us so little context.

More from the underground tunnels including what looks like it couple be corpses stuck in dried cement. And we hear an interesting line. “This a damn death march and you’re the pied piper.” So, Pied Piper theme. Something else we’ve seen a lot.

Then we see Connie and Virgil running through rooms. Now, I’d assumed that when Virgil found her, he took her somewhere or took her captive. I guess I didn’t really trust him even after Michonne sort of came to and assumed he was kind of a bad guy. But based on this, it could be that both were taken captive after he found her. They both seem to be running and trying to escape.

We see Maggie lighting a flare inside a subway train. Then, in quick succession, more masked eyes, Maggie looking distressed, and then someone’s fingers slipping from a handgrip, as though they’re trying not to fall but not falling anyway.

Then we see Maggie walking first through a parking lot and then some kind of defunct mall near an escalator. She says, “I lost something. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing that I did.” 

And then we see what I think is Maggie and Negan helping someone who is injured. Because we only see the backs of their heads, it’s hard to tell for sure. But I think the two on the outside are Maggie and Negan. I can’t tell who they’re helping. It doesn’t look like Daryl or Carol, but beyond that, I could say. If you look to the right, you can see department store mannequins, so this still seems to be in the mall.

Things speed up again and we see lots of people in masks, what looks like walkers invading Alexandria, Carol hugging Magna (forgiveness for Connie, perhaps?), people wielding weapons and running different places, etc.

We then see a bunch more of the underground tunnels stuff. People killing walkers in trains and such. We hear Negan say, “this only works if we trust each other.” And then Daryl says, “if you say trust him, I’ll trust him.” No idea who Negan’s line is directed to, as it’s just a voice over here. Chances are Daryl is talking about Negan, but again, no way to be sure.

Then Maggie says, “The woman who lived is not the one standing here now, so keep pushing me Negan. Please.”  When she says the final word, “please” we see her pointing a gun at someone with Daryl standing behind her.

A couple of things here. This is where we see her take off a skin mask, but that’s in daylight in the woods, so clearly, it’s a different scene than the subway with her and Daryl. What I’ll say is that, to me, this line from her feels very stilted, which means it may be spliced together. Remember back in the S5 trailer when it sounded like Gareth wanted to take Eugene to Washington to cure the virus, but in the show, he never said anything remotely close to that? The words really were his, but they just took lines of his dialogue and spliced them together. It was very misleading. I feel like this line from Maggie may be the same way. No way to be sure. I could be wrong. But it just sounds unnatural to me, like different parts of her dialogue have been spliced together. And who knows if the person she’s pointing the gun at is even Negan. We can’t see them.

I’m just saying, take it with a grain of salt.

Then we see the TWD logo. But it’s not over, yet. We see a coda, which is Eugene at the Commonwealth. We see a happy little “welcome to the Commonwealth” promo video, followed by lots of darkness and drama around Eugene.

Why is this important? Beth was the coda of the S5 trailer. For S6, it was Sherry and Dwight capturing Daryl in 6x06, which was replete with Beth symbolism. In the S7 trailer, it was Tara finding Oceanside. I could go on but, while Beth clearly wasn’t in any of the seasons after S5, the codas to the trailers tend to deal with symbolism or storylines that we’ve tied to her in HUGE ways. And we already believe she’ll probably come through Eugene’s story line when we, the viewers, first see her. So, it’s significant that they used Eugene, rather than any other character, as the coda.

I also noticed that in the CW promo vid, we see things like a mall or department store and a train station. Those are the same kinds of places we see Maggie and Daryl and the others exploring, except where they are everything is dark, defunct and overgrown, where in the CW video it all looks happy and functional and vibrant.

Not sure what that means. Are they meant to be the same places? Is there just a duality theme going on here? Are the Reapers and the Commonwealth connected somehow? We just don’t know, but it’s interesting.

I also notice behind the narrator is a monument with the words “The Great War” on them. Practically, the monument is probably referencing WWI, which was often called The Great War at the time it was happening, because it was the first worldwide war up until that point.

But I have no doubt that this monument is purposely placed by the writers and foreshadows the big, coming war, that we won’t truly see until the spinoff.

Okay, that’s pretty much it, but let me go back to that scene with the masked person and Dog staring at Daryl.

I think most people are assuming that it’s Daryl in the foreground (and I concur) and therefore the person watching him, who Dog is so comfortable standing beside, must be Leah. And it’s possible that that’s true. But keep in mind that, especially when Daryl isn’t around, Dog is equally comfortable with Connie and Carol. So, we just can’t know for sure who this is in the mask. I even think it could possibly be Daryl himself. I know that probably doesn’t make any sense to you but let me explain.

The angles and clarity of this shot are very suspicious to me. Let’s start with the angles. Clearly this is meant to be someone Daryl doesn’t see, but he feels he’s being watched, which is why he takes out his knife. But if you look at the angles, he’d only have to turn his head a fraction of an inch to see this person, so why doesn’t he? It just doesn’t feel like realistic positioning for the vibe they’re going for.

Secondly, the line between the right side (Daryl in the foreground) and the left side (Dog and the masked figure) looks a bit blurry and indistinct to me. And there’s a brown pole running down the center of the frame. At first glance, it seems to be a tree trunk, but if you look at it, it’s way too smooth and symmetrical to be one. I think it’s a metal pole. And what would that be doing in the middle of the forest?

Why am I telling you this? Just to show why I don’t think this is a “real” shot from the shot. Could Daryl be hallucinating? Sure. That’s one possibility. But I really wonder if this is just two different shots spliced together to create a creepy vibe for the trailer. So, one is the masked person standing next to Dog, and the other is Daryl in the foreground. And they’ve been put together with a computer.

That’s why I think the hooded figure itself could be Daryl. @wdway pointed out that this hooded figure wears a large knife very close to the center line of their body, and we’ve seen both Beth and Daryl do that in past seasons. Plus, remember that scene from the beginning of the trailer I told you to remember, where Daryl has either red mud or walker guts all over his face? I’m wondering if he’s just taken off a mask there. It would also explain Dog standing so calmly beside him.

And of course I could be totally wrong as well. Maybe it IS a masked person watching him. Maybe it IS Leah. There’s just no way to tell for certain. I guess my point is just to take everything with a grain of salt. We’ve been told this trailer is very misleading, and there’s absolutely no confirmation of who any of the masked people or random eyes are. Just keep that in mind.

Oh, I also said I’d come back to the horses. I didn’t write down exactly where, but at one point, we get a shot of Maggie walking up on dead horses. So, they’ll clearly play a role this season. Maybe it’s a matter of TF seeing some wild horses, and then finding them dead, and realizing this means there are bad people around. 

But remember there was a dead horse near Princess and Eugene’s group last season when they walked through the field of landmines. So, it’s something that’s been foreshadowed. And I can’t help but wonder if clear back in S5, Buttons might be a foreshadow of what’s about to happen in S11. Especially if it leads to Beth, which we think it will, I’m gonna say it was. But of course we’ll have to wait and see what that’s all about. 

Okay, I think that’s all I have for the trailer. Thoughts?

[bedlamsbard]

(in response to this post)

This turned out really, really long, so, uh, apologies?  The short version is that the number one rule is that your legacy characters don’t undercut your main cast.

I think Rogue One and Solo pulled it off -- Solo is a weirder case because it’s a prequel story about a main character, but Rogue One’s use of Tarkin, Vader, Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, etc. worked for me because from the beginning they were there to support the original characters in the film and never wavered from that.  Rogue One also benefited from knowing exactly what it was going to do and never wavering from that for an instant.

In terms of the shows, TCW is also not a straightforward case because it was using film characters as its mains and pulling from all over, but in terms of OT characters that appeared in the show, I am pretty happy with how TCW pulled off Chewbacca in Wookiee Hunt (3.22) -- puts him there, uses him well to support the main character of that particular arc (Ahsoka) and the other supporting characters (the other youngling Jedi), but it doesn’t turn into the Chewie episode. Same with Ackbar in the Mon Cala arc in S4: support, not overwhelming, doesn’t waver from the central theme of the arc.  Tarkin’s the other big one, and I’m pretty satisfied with the way he was used in TCW -- he’s always there in reference to the main characters of the arcs he appears in, and not in reference to himself, if that makes sense -- he’s there because having him there specifically makes more sense than it doesn’t.

(Honestly, I think the little philosophical lessons really helped with TCW being able to keep its focus: they have to drive straight towards that and not hesitate about it.  Every time they dropped those (I’m talking about you, Siege of Mandalore), they ran into a problem where they sort of wandered around a bit.)

Maul...I like Maul a lot.  I don’t have that much of a problem with the decision to bring him back into the timeline in TCW (at least you always knew that when George Lucas was doing something he was doing it because he enjoyed it, instead of the current case of “are you doing it for a purpose? for cheap lulz? for the aesthetic? are you setting up a sequel? are you trying to course-correct another piece of canon?”).  I do think Maul got overweighted in S7, and this is partially because they didn’t really have the space to build him up from where he ended in S5.  The Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir comic helps a little, but S7 is such a rapid switch from where he is in S5 (and you do have to assume that most viewers hadn’t read the comic) that he then pulls in too much narrative weight, and that’s because S7 was trying to do something really, really different from what the previous six seasons of TCW were trying to do.

Rebels sometimes pulls it off, sometimes does not.  Since we’re on the topic of Maul already, I am actually fine with Maul in Rebels.  I don’t actually think he was used to his full benefit because they pulled back at the last minute, but Maul in Twilight of the Apprentice? Fine with that. Same with Holocrons of Fate and Visions and Voices. (I’ve got a few other problems with Visions and Voices.)  Maul is always there in relation to the main characters of the show, not in relation to himself and not in relation to a non-Rebels character.  Did it have to be Maul (back in TotA, obvs, not the latter two)?  No, but it makes sense and it works really well thematically with all of the characters present in that episode.  Holocrons and Visions and Voices, same.

Twin Suns, on the other hand, another Maul episode, was a disaster -- beautifully made episode, everyone is in character, it should never have been made.  (I’m currently grumpy about this one specifically because I recently saw an “Ezra shouldn’t have been in Twin Suns” take.)  Yes, Maul and Obi-Wan are both interacting with Ezra, but Ezra in this ep is basically himself the McGuffin.  Neither the actual, thematic, or emotional conflict in the episode revolves around Ezra even if he’s the instigator of that final showdown.  If you can start and end an episode without the show’s main cast (and Rebels differs from TCW in that it did, very specifically, have a main character as well as a main cast), you’ve made a mistake.  Not to mention that Twin Suns takes a bunch of narrative and thematic weight that was set in TotA and earlier in S3 (such as the Maul/Kanan and Maul/Ezra parallels), and then completely ignores it in favor of a confrontation that is not going to be emotionally significant for viewers who are there for the show’s main cast.

Darth Vader mostly works in Rebels -- in S2 in isolation, not as part of the greater Rebels plot arc which is a weird hot mess of deescalating villains season by season (a whole ‘nother thing).  In Siege of Lothal he’s set up in relation to the main cast and that’s who most of his interaction is with.  Same with TotA, though I sometimes think more weight is put on the Vader/Ahsoka duel than should be there in terms of who the main cast are.  Sometimes I think it’s fine as is.  His other brief appearances are fine, since he’s mostly there just to loom and use up the fabric animation budget.

Tarkin really works in Rebels -- this is honestly Rebels’ biggest legacy character success, my gods, his introduction in Call to Action is terrifying.  Did it have to be Tarkin?  No, they could have made an OC and had the same role, but Tarkin here, in this context?  It ups the tension level a thousand percent, we see him ordering around the Imperials in the show (and the execution scene still gives me chills), and the end of Call to Action, when he’s talking to Kanan on the gunship and orders the destruction of the communications tower?  This is easily one of the most terrifying thing Rebels has ever done and to be honest, I’m not sure they ever topped it in terms of sheer presence.  Evacuating the star destroyer in Fire Across the Galaxy? Perfect parallel to ANH.

From S2-S4, Rebels really wavers back and forth on their use of legacy characters and this is true of the show as a whole from that point onwards -- when there’s a legacy character, they tend to be overweighted in terms of the episode and in terms of how much narrative space is given to them rather than to the main cast.  Not all the time (I have issues with the S4 Mandalore arc, but I think Bo-Katan was played fairly well because most of the narrative weight was still on Sabine), but a lot of the time.  The Future of the Force is really bad on this in terms of Ahsoka -- most of the episode is still focused on Kanan and Ezra, but then they’re taken off the board so she can have her dramatic fight scene.  Shroud of Darkness -- I go back and forth.  (I have other issues with Shroud.)  Leia in A Princess on Lothal -- mostly okay, but some weird moments, like using her to rally the Ghost crew into action?

Wedge in The Antilles Extraction -- fine  He’s played in relation to Sabine, his presence in the ep is thematically consistent with everything else they’re doing. Saw Gerrera in both S3 and S4 I really go back and forth on.  I think I’m mostly okay with him in terms of how he’s played in those four episodes, but I also think there are a lot of questions raised in terms of, like, his relationship to the Alliance.  (This goes for his appearance in Jedi Fallen Order as well -- I’m fine with it, it’s not mindblowing, it was nice to see.)  Mon Mothma I go back and forth on and part of this is because I’m not entirely sure what they were doing with the Rebel Alliance -- this same thing is true for Saw Gerrera.  Especially in the back half of S3 (though it appears earlier as well), Rebels is intersecting more and more with the Rebel Alliance in the lead-up to Rogue One and ANH, but I don’t think they were really entirely sure what they wanted to do with that thematically, which is how we get these wildly varying views of the Alliance even from within it, especially in S4.  Which is part of the reason why S4 thematically is A DISASTER.  (y’all I should not have come out of S4 hating the Rebel Alliance and I still can’t tell if they did that on purpose or not?)

I’m not mentioning every legacy character in Rebels here (Cham, Hondo, Madine, C-3PO and R2-D2, Bail Organa), but mostly the ones where they pay major roles.  Rex I think Rebels mostly managed to pull off having as treating him like supporting cast and not overweighting him as character.  -- The clone trio at the beginning of S2 has them in relation to Kanan, Ezra, Kallus and the stormtroopers, etc., not just in relation to themselves.

(I have no idea how to talk about Thrawn in this context because Thrawn isn’t exactly a legacy character from the current canon, but on the other hand he’s a major EU legacy character, so he’s also just a weird god damn case in general that doesn’t really have a parallel in current canon?)

What else we got -- Star Wars Resistance; doesn’t use that many legacy characters but uses the ones it has pretty sparingly.  Poe is always there in relation to Kaz, Leia has a very brief appearance, Phasma and Hux are mostly there because it makes sense for them to be there, same with Kylo Ren.  Resistance has its issues (both thematically and with pacing) but this is not one of them).

Jedi Fallen Order -- Saw was fine; Vader wasn’t overweighted once he showed up.  Battlefront II had its legacy characters almost entirely in context of Iden and Del; they weren’t there just to be there.  (And not being a gamer I’m not one hundred percent certain how those two felt in actual playing, vs. my watching them on YT.)

(I am not terribly familiar with the current canon books and comics because I stopped reading them a while ago.)

Non-canon example from Legends: Han Solo’s appearance in the Wraith Squadron novels.

The short version of this is: if you’re going to use legacy characters, you want them to be there in relation to your main cast. It has to work thematically; they can’t undercut your mains. Their stories, no matter how important to the saga as a whole, should not overwhelm the main cast of your actual show/film/game/whatever. And they definitely should not undercut your mains.  (I think Mando did this fine with Bo-Katan, tbh.)