#its not wrong when it's done to agamemnon

[kexytimes]

quick little Clytemnestra sketch :)

[streets-in-paradise]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT, YOU ARE AWESOME!!!!

( I can't find much merch where i live, currently awaiting for the mail to bring me an Achilles 3D printed figure. )

THIS, THIS, EXACTLY!!!

" Wooow, you know so much about the Iliad, you must be some classicist or something. "

Me: Thanks, but actually I got an insane attachment to Troy (2004) at a developmental age and that's what led me to endlessly read and overanalize the Iliad. You know the way it happened to some kids with Percy Jackson?

That's the feeling, what got me here is not being normal about that silly movie lol. I point at the scene Brad Pitt fucked up his heel the way average lotr fan points at Viggo's toe in Two Towers. ( I'm also a lotr fan, but you get the use of the example)

The change of the score in the director's cut ruins a few things, but doing that to Hector's Death was criminal.

Last time i rewatched director's cut my sister literally cackled because when Hector goes to fight Achilles the Troy motif is sounding, then abrutly stops once he sees Achilles, giving a very " pov: you are about to die" vibe.

Felt a bit meme-like:

(Angry Achilles seen through the pov of Hector)

*troy music stops*

🤣🤣

A less harmfull change I dislike is the switch of the Sparta party music. I liked Horner 's better and, in fact, now you can't find his version anywhere ( at least in YouTube). For some reason the rest of the Horner score is there, but everytime i try to search the full song of the Sparta scene I only find the other version.

As an adaptation it may have failed in many aspects, but it's my precious trash. Like " excuse me? that's my emotional support universally hated film. "

btw, I don't know if you are into fic, but a few years ago I fully embraced my love for the movie and started writing for it.

the movies mentioned in the Wikipedia article of “movies considered the worst” are far more interesting than the movies in the Wikipedia article “movies considered the best”

[psy--conic]

Reading the Iliad, Book 10 thoughts

This is my first time ever reading it and I know next to nothing abt greek mythology so if I interpret anything wrong by all means pls correct me

Im reading the Robert Fagles translation

This book is short but does not lack in the entertainment department

Agamemnon can't sleep bc how can he with the war going the way it is?

So he goes out to find Nestor but as he's doing that he runs into his brother Menelaus who also cannot sleep and is doing the same thing Agamemnon is abt to do

Menelaus pitches the idea that they should send someone to spy on the Trojans. However, he's almost sure that no one is going to want to do this job bc its super dangerous

Agamemnon agrees bc the very thought of Hector is making him sweat hard asf

So they split up to gather a council. Agamemnon says he'll get Nestor and tells Menelaus to grab Ajax (Greater), Idomeneus, Meriones, and Nestor's son.

I don't think they say the name of Nestor's son in book 10 or maybe they said it in an earlier book bc I don't know who tf Nestor's son is lol

But Menelaus asks "Um where tf am I supposed to meet you after I'm done??" I really like how NO ONE clears anything up unless asked too

They decide to meet back at Agamemnon's tent

Agamemnon ends up scaring the shit out of Nestor when he enters his tent.

Nestor's like 80 you can't be scaring him like that😭

Nestor suggests they grab Dio, Ody, Ajax (Lesser), and Phyleus for this meeting too

Then Nestor starts shit-talking Menelaus out of nowhere???? LMAO😭😭

"Ur brother's so fucking lazy lol, we still need to get Ajax and Idomeneus but they're on the other side of camp." -Nestor

Why is he acting like Menelaus hasn't been pulling his weight this WHOLE time? Hello?

Then Agamemnon says "You're right as always buuut Meneluas is doing that very thing as we speak so..."

Menelaus catching strays this book ig

Odysseus gets super pissy at Nestor for waking him up so I'm going to assume he's one of those ppl who are just in a bad mood after being woken up. He doesn't seem to be a morning person at all

Nestor shouts at Diomedes to "WAKE UP." A complete 180 from how he woke up Odysseus btw

"Why are u yelling at me?" - Diomedes

After everyone is rounded up in Agamemnon's tent Nestor presents their plan in a way that really told me a lot abt his character

He's like "Hmmmm I wonder who would be willing to spy on the Trojans for us? It has its risks ofc but think of the glory he'd receive upon his return, all the gifts? All the men will ask him to their feasts" (it's a feast not the fucking prom💀)

I really like the way Nestor says it. I can just imagine having been a young man himself at one point he knows how to play into the egos of the men around him

Diomedes is the first to jump at this opportunity

But Dio says he needs a partner and everyone stands up to volunteer

But he picks Ody

Jump to the Trojan camp: Guess who had the same plan as Menelaus? Hector, they have like, the exact same plan.

Dolon who is just some ugly guy decides he'll be the Trojan spy

Both teams of spies run into each other

And Dolon starts running for his life

Diomedes and Odysseus end up catching this guy and he automatically starts crying

Ody asks him a whole bunch of questions abt their camp

Dolon is the world's worst spy bc he tells them everything and by the end he asks "You guys are going to spare my life now, right?"

And Diomedes just goes "Nah.♥️" and CUT THIS MANS HEAD CLEAN OFF

They loot his body and give the armor to Athena

Anyways they get to the Thracians who are currently asleep and Ody and Dio see that the Thracians have some nice ass horses

Diomedes kills 13 of them while they sleep, one was a king.

Once it's time to go Athena has to come down and tell Diomedes that it is time to stop and go home. (they take to horses)

Apollo watches this whole mission happen and wakes up the Trojans

Dio and Ody make it back to camp, Nestor asks where those nice ass horses and that's the end of the book

[marielle555]

Good, Evil, and/or binary thinking.

“Heroes are half the damn problem. Fools that believe in right and wrong - good and evil.” (с) Astarion

Fans of the genre probably know that pathos arguments about Good and Evil in mediocre fantasy used to substitute the plot, the logic of the world and the psychology of the characters quite a long time ago. At the dawn of the genre in such a fairy-tale division had its own special charm, besides, when something really new and unusual appears (and the world, in which lived orcs, elves, blades glittered and powerful spells were pronounced, was itself surprisingly new and beautiful) the attitude to this new will be very special. But when later, one after another went books and movies, which were full of “heroes” (because they are “good”) and “villains” (because “evil”) interest in this genre began to cause only those authors, whose talent was enough to bring something real to the story. Realism. The real breakthrough that caused mass interest in the fantasy genre was George Martin with “Game of Thrones”, who showed real live multifaceted characters, the lack of division into “black” and “white” and breaking the stamp “good always wins”. As you know, in fairy tales always wins Good, but it happens because the tales are usually told later by those who are left alive. George Martin, by the way, did not intend to broadcast any “messages”, he originally wrote his work for himself, not expecting to be published, perhaps this was also one of the factors that made his novel so great.

In the culture up to the Renaissance, the existence of Good and Evil in nature was not questioned by anyone. God and the Devil, respectively, were considered to be their source. True, back in those times each nation had its own God, and often different Gods sent their adherents mutually exclusive theses on the subject of what can be considered Good and what is Evil. And now, in the 21st century, one can observe an example of binary thinking, similar to the thinking of a medieval peasant, in all sorts of moralists on the net. “Evil characters are bad”, ‘you can't be happy if you've killed 7000 NPCs’, ‘you're romanticizing blah blah blah’, ‘you can't sexualize blah blah blah’. As a result, we have degradation of the genre (if developers and content creators listen to moral busybodies) or worsening of an initially deep and interesting story, when spots of “preachiness” in one form or another appear on the artistic canvas, making the player/viewer wrinkle their nose and sigh.

The game world cannot live according to the laws of the real world (unless it is a simulation of real life). At least, because it is another world with its own laws, where even the laws of physics (magic) work differently, and where the analogy of different historical epochs can be presented, and bringing “morality” from everyday life into it is fraught with breaking the immersion and logical inconsistencies. Besides, fantasy is escapism, and the purpose of immersion in a magical world is, in many ways, the desire to take a break from this very ordinariness.

If we talk about the attitude towards various “evil” and generally bloody and terrible things and actions shown in the game and possible for the player, we can distinguish two types of attitude. One type is the one demonstrated in ancient tragedies - some things are horrible, but that's the way they are. They are inevitable. It is fate, fatum, destiny and it has to be done. And a person, who commits what from the point of view of a given society is a crime, cannot in a number of circumstances not do it. Agamemnon's son cannot not kill his father in revenge for his mother. That's called tragedy. It is an ancient approach that understands the complexity and depth of the world. In BG3, a similar image was very well demonstrated by the example of the character Ketheric Thorm. There is another approach, which can be called “The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness” (actually this approach is best demonstrated in the text of the same name: “The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness” - a millenarian fanatical sectarian text, which was written somewhere in the 30s BC by Jewish rebels fighting against Herod). And “The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness” deals with the unsophisticated idea that “all who fight on our side are sons of light”, they're the afflicted, they're the victims, they're always right. No matter what they do. And all those who are against us are the sons of Darkness, and they must be destroyed down to the smallest infant. And, accordingly, if you fight on the side of light, you cannot do anything wrong by definition. Therefore, when you loot and kill - that is the heroic and righteous action. And, if we follow such binary thinking when creating game worlds, then the same nonsense and get - a sect of the name of “Good”, as if everything comes from God or from the Devil (in a world where these gods are real and there are dozens of them, with completely different dogmas, as well as different devils and demons, and the Nine Hells - the same plan of existence with its own laws, like many other plans and has nothing to do with Hell in this or that religion). When there should be exclusively separate “good” and “evil” game playthroughs, “sacred rules” for rolepley of this or that alignment, “evil” is a manic killer, who craves only “power”. “Good” by this logic should “power” do not want, always refuse, accordingly, be a loser, and die under the heel of less sensitive in the choice of weapons maniac, but that's okay, maniacs should cut themselves, because “evil” does not know how to love, friendship and unite. This is remedied by a correctly written script under the “good hero” and “good” will still triumph over logic. And “the majority” should definitely want to play as such a “hero”, “teach morality” to the infidels, and dripping saliva on the shining paladin armor, with a grunt immediately want to kill the companion, if “detected evil” worked. In DnD circles, as I recall, we used to laugh with equal gusto at fans of the “stupid-good” and “schoolboy-evil” alignment (representing evil roleplay as “I go around killing everyone who can be killed, and I get boorish wherever there's a boorish line”). And seeing character #1 in games as mandatory mainstream and character #2 as how you're “supposed” to roleplay “evil”, ahem, well that's clearly not what most fans of the RPG genre expect from a game in the genre.

Regarding BG3 itself - in EA the game took the heights and was very promising, in post-release they did cram “morality” in some places, in some places the content was underdone, and in the evil playthroughs it often feels like players are being “lectured” and there is much less content than for the “good playthrough”. Perhaps a lot of the blame for this lies on Hasbro and their pressure on developers during the game's creation. Wizards of the Coast's penchant for shoving this very binary mindset and “preaching” to players has existed before (you may recall the definitely facepalm-inducing phrases among DMs and players in the guides for creating evil campaigns, like “evil players are bound have to lose”). Let's hope they do better in the next games, where Larian will completely own the setting and IP of the characters, without any outside influence. They can, and BG3 proved that in many ways too, after all, that game raised the quality bar for RPGs to a new level, there are companions that are appealing and long-lastingly hooking (for me they are Astarion as a beloved and Minthara as a friend, and each companion has their own rather large fandom). And if you turn a blind eye to the problems in the game's romance (most of the controversy and problems were about that part of the game), the story itself is pretty compelling and decent.

As for Astarion's story directly, it's a stunning story that overshadows the main storyline. The moment of Ascension reaches that level of antique drama, especially when you start playing “for the good” (not knowing yet that “good” here can be “preachy”), separating the magical world from the real world and together with your character naively believing in this magical world. When you cry for him, when your hands get cold because of his stories about his past, when after: “He was a monster to us all, but did take special pleasure in my pain. He said my screams sounded sweetest” you silently run around the Shadow-Cursed Lands map, wishing you could just find someone to kill, because your hands are shaking. “Oh, I tried them all. None of them answered.” The perception of this world changes a lot, naivety is destroyed and being a “hero” is no longer possible. “Heroes are half the damn problem. Fools that believe in right and wrong - good and evil.” The world is cruel and realistic. “It's nice to see heroes are as awful as the rest of us.” - this line by Astarion is perhaps the perfect characterization of all the “good” companions. And the initial fantasies of saving everyone, some hopes of healing, based on the found diary with Dalyria's experiments, are all shattered by reality. And it's a glorious level of drama. Even the “good ending” spoiler in the first playthrough comes across not as a spoiler, but as a terrible prophecy. And whatever you thought of all this before, now you, like the hero of an ancient tragedy, can't help but send all those 7,000 souls to Mephistopheles. Souls that are already doomed. The Ascension scene is amazing - it's gorgeous. And then… The spit in all of this comes in the form of four idiotic lines of dialog. “I want your body.” Facepalm. If you compare this plot to ancient tragedy, it's like you borrowed this deepest and most serious tragedy from the library, and some school kid wrote shit with a marker across the paragraph, like, “You, who read this is an ***.” And the “opportunity” for domestic violence in the kneeling scene, which although I've never seen and I'm not going to, and it's written “in the margins of the book” and you can try not to look at it, but the eye squints in that direction and “break the hands” of the person, who wrote it (figuratively) periodically wants to. Well, I don't like vandalism, when they spoil works of art (any kind). Yes, nothing will change now, but I would really hate to see such moments of spoiling a great story in future games. By the way, the “moralizing nonsense” completely removes the moment of tragedy, we just correct with mods and enjoy. Playing as “evil” becomes just fun and high.

It is believed that the developers wanted to present the route of the Ascended Astarion as tragic. But, except for that moment of inevitable sacrifice to Mephistopheles, essentially no tragedy is seen - it's a wonderful, happy and very positive ending. If you get rid of all companions except Minthara and Shadowhart (she's not much of a moralizer, and Shadowhart the Dark Justiciar is generally on your side), install the romance mods for AA, including a mod to change Tav's lines in the post-Ascension dialogue scene and a mod that improves the animation of the night with Astarion (the mod also fixes Tav's facial expressions in that scene), ignore the “mind-reading” - 0% tragedy in the game. The process of getting rid of companions is somewhat unpleasant and smells of a strong metagame, but beyond that it's a beautiful adventure with a happy ending. In my opinion, real tragedy is not being “cured” in this way, these mods do not change Astarion himself and his reactions in any way. It's impossible to make a mod that fixes the UA route, that variant will never be happy unless you have your own game studio to reshoot Astarion's scenes - the tragedy is genuine, at the very core of the story. A colossal dissonance has developed between what is said about Astarion's paths, the way it's presented, and the way it actually exists in the game. “Moralism” gets in the way of the story. Or distorts it, as happened with Astarion's story in the fandom. In my opinion, making a story that doesn't have a “perfect good way out” is a great move. It's highly memorable and gives a special emotion. Shoving in something that isn't really “good” by declaring it as such is not so great. Especially trying to “moralize” on a factually happy, actually happy, “evil path”. It seems to me that it's worth sticking to either one or the other. If there is a desire to show the appeal of “goodness”, then somehow it must be made appealing, so that it is such, not just named (and this should also be thought out and not look silly). If we're showing realism, and a “good” act can lead to bad consequences, that's fine, that's strong, but then no “moralizing,” please. Especially without trying to make the player “feel bad” in crooked and immediately visible to the naked eye ways.

You can consider this post just a reflection on the completed BG3 game and the general concept of “good and evil” in games. Just hoping for a return of the approach to game creation that has been in RPGs in the past. BG2, the Pathfinder series games (Owlcat Studios, in general, never abandoned that approach, they created great games and are creating them), etc. But, at the same time, to be able to meet in future games as amazing and soul-catching romantic companion as Astarion! (yes, I want a lot, of course, but I must admit, that the very existence of Astarion in BG3, allows you to ultimately forgive the game many flaws and problems).

[sonoftydeusthemusical]

My friend has never heard of Diomedes before; how would you describe him? Like his motivations, his way of thinking, his strengths and weaknesses, his relationships, major plot points?

(I would explain him myself but I'm still not that far in the Iliad.)

Hello, thank you soooo much for this ask and sorry for the late reply!

First of I want to say that we’re by no means experts on Diomedes. We’re still in the process of learning more about him and discovering and exploring him through this musical, so people with a background in ancient studies might have a more detailed/accurate analysis of him than we can provide at the moment. But we still try to answer you to the best of our abilities!

(You’re welcome to correct us in the comments/reblogs ^^” )

In the words of @holy_mother_of_whumpers:

Diomedes kicks ass more than anyone in the Iliad, is scolded more than anyone. Odysseus best friend (according to historians). Shitty childhood (incest, prophesies and and a lot of dead relatives, which is almost as ancient Greek backstories go), shitty post Troy (banished from his city, cursed by Aphrodite). Actually happy ending (founder of cities, immortalized by Athena).

He’s like Odysseus, but with an unbelievably tragic childhood and less disaster energy. He gets stuff done and slays doing it

But here’s our answer…sorry if this is turns out too long!

Starting out with your question about his motivations

Oath bound, Diomedes avenged his fathers death at the age of 14, sacking the city of Thebes (the epic surrounding it is called “Epigoni” but unfortunately it’s a story lost to history, also he was 4 when he took the oath, should that count rly? shouldn't there be an age of consent for oaths? anyway)

The story surrounding his fathers death is tragic and a bit disgusting (he ate brain and Athena who wanted to gift him immortality was too disgusted to do so)

Diomedes doesn’t remember his father, and he still gets compared a lot to him (just see Agamemnon low-key trash-talking him by stating how much of a better fighter his father was to motivate him for battle) so that kind of plays into his motivations

Additionally like so many other heroes, glory and honor are definitely also motivations of his. Often it is Athena who pushes or motivates him to many of his greatest deeds and other feats (like wounding Ares, throwing the spear at Dolon, beating everyone in the funeral games,…..yeah Athena HATES loosing)

What’s interesting that despite the fact that he was raised on war, later on – after Troy (and admittedly, even more warfare) – he’s said to have wanted to settle down more, founded his cities in peace (or as peaceful as life for kings was back then haha)

In the Iliad Diomedes is always the first to volunteer, and despite often getting treated rather badly (Nestor kicked him awake, my boy was even sleeping in his armour, Agamemnon calls him a coward) he tends to keep a cool head and doesn’t retaliate (…except that one time….or two?) BUT he also definitely doesn’t take BS, he calls out Agamemnon for being a bad leader when he suggests to leave (Diomedes insists they stay and fight until they won)

For his way of thinking…he’s rather pragmatic, a good strategist (mentored by athena), first to jump into the fray, trusts his own strength, knows when to back down/when to talk back, can get caught up in the heat of the moment in battles, doesn’t shy away from violence, lies & trickery…. (correct me on this if I'm wrong or missed something)

Strengths & Weaknesses

One thing that makes him stand out among the other heroes is that arguably, he’s one of the few greek heroes whose lives don’t end in a complete tragedy because of his hubris against the gods (…….wellll………..his wife betraying him after he injured aphrodite and being exiled for arogs is an instant where he still pays for his acts against the goddess, but its tame compared to many other heroes fates, who committed lesser crimes) and in the end he even gets deitified (or at least in some versions, like athena wanted to do with his father, but his father messed upppppp so…..)

He’s more level headed than many other heroes (cough Odysseus “i am in the infamous odysseus” King of Ithaca)

He’s one of the best fighters - or THE best fighter of the greeks next to Achilles, the trojans were more scared of him than of Achilles (….since Achilles didn’t fight) without him the Achaeans….would’ve probably lost the war

As for his weaknesses….one thing is something that’s not even within his own control: his young age (compared to the other kings), almost nobody realllyyyy respects him despite his badass deeds on the battlefield and good battle advice, his many ships he brought and his battle experience even before the war and two) the kind of lingering shame of his fathers final moments (nom nom brain, and failing to take Thebes), but also his fathers supposed greatness that he keeps getting compared to and has to live up to

Now…..his relationships…oh boy theres so many, I’ll try to sum up the most important ones I know in once sentence for each

His family:

His father: he doesn’t remember him, but people keep bringing him up and comparing him to him

We dont know much about his relationship with his mother

most…of his other (male) relatives die in his early youth (which is how he ends up as King of Argos) like his grandfathers, and his uncles…

The achaean kings:

Agamemnon: the boss who’s a bully, but Diomedes talks back to him sometimes at least (…unless he’s insulting him, he just accept that)

Ajax: Diomedes almost kills him during the funeral games….the acheans have to break up the fight

Achilles: Diomedes doesn’t like him, Dio is the only one who wants him punished for killing Diomedes cousin that everyone else hated

Odysseus: LOTS of tea to be found here (he seems to see Ody as a mentor figure and keeps picking him as companion for missions, they both have Athena as their patron goddess but while Odysseus leans a little bit more on the wisdom part, Diomedes leans more into the pure strength of battle, they work well together and have a bunch of missions together)

Comrades

Most noteable are Sthenelus (known him since early childhood) and Euryalus, who are with him in Troy, they were part of the Epigoni (its rly a long story)

His wife: is his cousin, he marries her to strengthen his rulership, in the end, its said that she betrayed him with a new lover and exiled him from his own kingdom (another long story)

Glaucus: they met on the battlefield and realized their grandfathers were bro’s so they didnt fight each other, and instead exchanged armours (but Diomedes got the better, golden armour, while Glaucus got the bronze armour..)

There is sooooo much more to say about him, all the stories of the Iliad, the events before AND after it, his relationship with Athena, etc. I barely scratched the surface here so maybe we have to make a whole series of posts about this one day so we can get more into detail because its so much! (Let us know if we should???)

I hope this answered some of your questions, though! And again thank you so much for your interest and apologies for the late reply!

[callipraxia]

An Observation

I'm reading a bunch of books about plot structure again, and one of them was specifically about breaking down plots to their basic elements in a way that lets you see how two works can have the same 'skeleton' while appearing wildly different. Looking at it from that angle, it occurred to me:

The stories of Demeter and Clytemnestra follow roughly the same plot - they just have different outcomes.

In the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, we get the story of Demeter and Persephone - the story that formed the basis of the Eleusinian Mysteries. Persephone is picking flowers when she is lured astray by one planted as a trap for her; once she tries to get it, Hades pops up from nowhere, yanks her onto his chariot, and goes off to the Underworld with her, having gotten permission from Zeus to forcibly marry her without consulting with Demeter, her mother. There's scholarly discussion about how this could be symbolic of the real grief experienced by ancient Greek mothers and daughters, who might well never see each other again after the daughter is married off, but in its own context - the lord of the Underworld claims the Maiden, plunging her mother into grief and anger, which turns into Demeter blighting the world until the other gods come to an accommodation with her which partially restores Persephone to her. Ultimately, however, Demeter is plunged back into mourning every half-year when Persephone must once more return to Hades, which results in winter for everyone else.

In the Oresteia, we open with Clytemnestra plotting murder; this is because, in the backstory, her husband Agamemnon tricked her into bringing their daughter Iphigeneia to him by pretending he has arranged an honorable marriage for the girl, only to sacrifice Iphigeneia to the goddess Artemis instead once he has her. Cue Clytemnestra plotting her revenge: she spends the whole Trojan War fantasizing about tricking Agamemnon into a position where she can kill him, just as he tricked her into putting Iphigeneia into a position to be sacrificed to Artemis. Fast-forward ten years; the Trojan War is over, Agamemnon comes home, Clytemnestra proceeds to get her revenge, and she and her boyfriend (who also wanted to avenge wrongs done to his family - specifically, he had some older siblings who met a rather gristly end at the hands of Agamemnon's already-deceased father) take over the government, with negative results for the polis, if we're to believe Electra in Libation-Bearers, anyway.

Agamemnon is, in a way, roughly analogous to Hades: a superior being (Zeus, Artemis) gives a powerful Figure From Greek Mythology (Hades, Agamemnon) permission to send a young woman to the Underworld, and in the process, her mother is tricked and bereaved. As a result, both Demeter and Clytemnestra go nuclear in their pursuit of revenge: Demeter inflicts massive crop damage, fully prepared to commit genocide upon humanity solely because the other gods enjoy receiving offerings from humans, and Clytemnestra breaks her marriage vows and then lures Agamemnon to his death. However, at that point, their stories diverge pretty sharply: even Zeus himself is apparently unable to force Demeter to come to Olympus or to allow anything to grow again against her will, and he is not able to prevent her from bringing winter back down upon the world every half-year whenever Persephone is re-removed from her due to the laws of godly physics as applied to pomegranates, because why not. Clytemnestra, however, is not a goddess - she is not even the child of a god or goddess, even though her own twin sister, Helen, is. Clytemnestra is a powerful woman...but just, at the end of the day, a human woman. Therefore, her revenge backfires onto her horribly: she who committed murder to avenge one of her daughters (Iphigeneia) is murdered by her son (Orestes) as part of a plot which included her surviving daughter (Electra). As a shade, she raises the Furies against Orestes, so that these ancient goddesses of vengeance drive him nearly mad...but because a greater power (Athena) can and does exert power (at one point, she threatens the Eumenides with Zeus's lightning-bolts, which she has access to, if they don't agree to her arbitration of the quarrel) over everyone else involved. Zeus could not curb Demeter, but his daughter can curb the Furies and bring them fully into line with the patriarchal system***.

There's stories in there. I know it. More than one. Just to sift them out and find something to do with them....

***For an interpretation of Oresteia which makes some sense out of the ending of Eumenides other than "lol, women unimportant and stupid," there's an interesting lecture by the Canadian classicist Ian Johnston, which can be viewed here: http://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/lectures/oresteialecture.html

I quite like it, along with much of Professor Johnston's work, though it's still hard to come away without the impression that Aeschylus miiiiight have had Issues with women. However, this would hardly make Aeschylus the last writer whose skill (and point) was undermined by his prejudices.

[sketching-shark]

Okay so I’ve now seen multiple posts arguing about whether Clytemnestra of The Oresteia fame is one of the world’s first girlbosses or just a power-hungry monster, but personally (and keep in mind that this is my impression after just reading Agamemnon) i think there’s something more interesting and horrifying on a society-wide scale going on with her.

Because right after she murders Agamemnon and the chorus reacts by saying she’s done an “evil thing” and will “go homeless now/crushed with men’s bitterness,” she responds with:

“Now it is I you doom to be cast out from my city

with men’s hate heaped and curses roaring in my ears.

Yet look upon this dead man; you would not cross him once

when with no thought more than as if a beast had died,

when he ranged pastures swarmed with the deep fleece of flocks,

he slaughtered like a victim his own child, my pain

grown into love, to charm away with winds of Thrace.

Were you not bound to hunt him then clear of this soil

for the guilt stained upon him?

Yet you hear what I have done, and lo, you are a stern judge. But I say to you:

go on and threaten me, but know that I am ready,

if fairly you can beat me down beneath your hand,

for you to rule; but if the god grant otherwise,

you shall be taught--too late, for sure--to keep your place.”

So in other words, one of her main reasons for killing Agamemnon was for killing her daughter, but it also seems that somewhere along the way she became convinced that any claimed adherence to justice, morality, honor, and even love were complete bullshit, that the only thing which mattered was how you could wield raw power to get what you wanted. And in the context of Agamemnon, you can understand why she would come to think this. Agamemnon, after all, was a lauded king even though he had murdered his own daughter so that he could go wage war against Troy, he does in fact put this entire city to the sword (and goddamn do a lot of works go into the minute brutality of that slaughter), and his entire household runs on slavery, with him bringing back even more enslaved people from Troy. And in the eyes of their society, all of this is understood as completely fine and good, or at least something that shouldn’t be challenged.

So if Troy and its people were destroyed because Menelaus was pissed at Paris, why shouldn’t Clytemnestra kill Agamemnon because she’s pissed at him? If it’s okay for a king to spend ten years waging war, why not kill one’s husband and take his throne? If we’re working in a social system that ultimately always falls back on a “might makes right” way of organizing itself no matter how much human pain and death may be the result, why not take power however you can and then tell anyone who objects that you’ll kill them too if they step out of line? And who even has the right to act like you’re in the wrong when they made it clear they were perfectly fine with so many other atrocities?

So no, Clytemnestra is not a good person. While I haven’t read it yet, my understanding is that she acts in more and more monstrous ways throughout the other plays she’s in, even going so far as to continually abuse her surviving daughter Electra. But her individual monstrous actions also seem to be the direct result of her concluding that the fine sentiments others claim to be acting upon are nothing more than a tissue-thin veneer for their own greed and lust for power, and that she at least wasn’t going to pretend that hers weren’t.

The Oresteia is a trilogy of tragedies, but I do think it’s one that’s made even more discomfiting by the idea that this was tragedy produced just as much by the allowances of society as the individual actions of its characters.

[menelaiad]

"that follows the Cassandra was not claimed by agamemnon for sexual purposes, but leople don't seem to like that narrative" - can you explain this one a bit further? I kinda get what you're saying but its not something I've really heard before. Sorry if it's actually something obvious and I'm asking a basic question. Thank you for your time

sure sure! i spoke about this in my lectures and it made said when i verbalised it, but if it comes across all warped and muddled in word-form than please just ask me to clarify ASDFGHJKL

OKAY SO. we know that cly wanted to kill aga. it was planned. aeschylus (and to an extent the other tragedians) give us the whole watch-tower-carpet-walking scene that shows that. she WANTED to know when he was coming home to put her plan into action. homer is not so explicit BUT he, again, mentions that it was cly and aeg that killed him implying Some preparation. the two had a plan to execute.

it was not something she planned to do upon seeing aga arrive at mycenea with kassandra.

SO WE HAVE TWO THINGS - it was iphi. pretty black and white. aga had sacrificed their daughter ten years earlier and she spent ten years plotting his murder. did it. credits roll, that's that.

at least that's what the tragedians say. Homer doesn't say WHY. and this is where hyginus comes in and says:

§ 117 CLYTEMNESTRA: Clytemnestra, daughter of Tyndareus and wife of Agamemnon, heard from Oiax, brother of Palamedes, that Cassandra was being brought as a concubine to her house, a false statement Oiax made in order to avenge the wrong done to his brother. Then Clytemnestra, together with Aegisthus, son of Thyestes, planned to kill Agamemnon and Cassandra. They killed him with an axe as he was sacrificing, and Cassandra, too. But Electra, Agamemnon's daughter, rescued her brother, the infant Orestes, and sent him to Strophius in Phocis. Strophius had married Agamemnon's sister, Astyoche.

(disclaimer: hyginus is roman. however. we cannot say for certain he made this up lmfao. there may be something lost that he got this from. a play. a fragment. something from the epic cycle. We Don't Know. so dont come at me with 'UHHH THATS A ROMAN' - i know. but romans lived closer to the greeks than we do. they may have had access to stuff that we have now lost. okay? good.)

this does kinda hold up though. cause palamedes was wronged by his fellow greeks and aga is the leader of said greeks. so this statement does have legs.

SO LET'S SAY homer is right. there is just iphianassa, laodike and chyrso as his daughters. all alive and no iphi (like in the iliad) - why the plot to kill aga? in this timeline of events (that we know of) there is no iphi sacrifice.

THEREFORE. the spreading of a rumour that cly becomes aware of that she THEN concocts a plan to kill aga for makes sense. someone has told her about kassandra (falsely) and she's made her plan with aegisthus. THUS showing that kassandra being taken by aga for sexual purposes as a falsehood.

EXTENDING FROM THAT in Aeschylus, aga tries to get kassandra to acknowledge cly has her mistress or like cly to acknowledge she's now kass' mistress - which means she's there for cly. and that's a theme in TW too. that these trojan women are going back with greek men to serve their wives (like hecuba and penelope). ALSO. the ONLY reference made to kassandra being in aga's bed/sleeping with him etc. comes from cly. she's the only one who seems to be on that wavelength. nobody else is. aga never says it. kass never says it. only cly - she's the only one privy to the rumour. that's why.

ALSO in homer aga is killed at a feast. not in the bath. also also. kass is not killed with aga IN the bath if you wanna do the bath stuff. she is killed separately and then thrown on top of his body. they are Not bathing together. that is a modern sexualisation of the story (cause we love this shit to be sexual for some fuckin reason lmfaooo welp)

elephant in the room - euripides has kassandra make a big show of being a sexual slave to agamemnon when she leaves with him in trojan women. i've said it before, i'll say it again - euripides needs a LOT of context to be understood. he is ..... i dont wanna say projecting but i legit cant think of a better word ... about the war he is currently in.

NOW - am i saying 'aga doesnt suck cause he didn't wanna sleep with kassandra' NO. taking a poor girl from her home. killing her family. u know the spiel. is AWFUL. whether you sleep with her or not ... doesn't matter tbh. BUT it seems to be like concrete that that is what aga wanted and it's not .... that concrete, there is .... explanation for the contrary i suppose. also, people, stop making everything regarding the epic cycle about sex and sexual violence, like who are you? pat fucking barker?

[finelythreadedsky]

Do you believe there are any "pure evil" characters in the Greek mythos, and if so, whom?

nope! greek myth doesn't really operate on good/evil dichotomies. if anything it leans on nature/culture as its dominant binary, which means we get a lot of stories about culture-heroes fighting to impose civilization on chaos (think heracles, theseus, odysseus, oedipus and the sphinx, whatever apollo's trying to accomplish in the eumenides). but the forces of chaos and nature are usually treated as having every right to be there. like the bacchae is a great example, pentheus is explicitly *wrong* to try to impose law and order on the natural forces represented by dionysus and the maenads. or when apollo kills the serpent and founds delphi, that's a victory of civilization over chaos, but not of good over evil. it's value-neutral, even value-ambivalent. even 'monsters' like the hydra or the minotaur or polyphemus the cyclops or nessus the centaur who tries to rape deianeira-- they're not evil, they're just existing and acting as is in their nature, which is a nature that cannot coexist side by side with humans and heroes. the laestrygonians eat people, that's just who they are and what they do. the only thing to do is avoid their harbor.

and when humans are concerned, my sense is that they're generally depicted as having made mistakes, when they're not treated as simply doomed. like think of how balanced the iliad is and how much sympathy it stirs for people on both sides of the war. or antinous, the chief suitor in the odyssey, even he's more of a fool who made an error of judgement than an actively evil man. the worst i can think of is polymestor who kills polydorus, but even his actions are kind of understandable-- he wants to get on the greeks' good side rather than assume the risks that come with secretly raising the prince of a fallen city and helping him in a hopeless revenge quest. it's not a surprise that he kills polydorus, it's more of what anyone in his situation would probably have done. even when characters are depicted as assholes (the suitors in the odyssey, aeschylus's agamemnon, odysseus in philoctetes, pentheus in the bacchae) they're always understandable and working off comprehensible sets of values toward what they think is right (which is also often what is generally societally determined to be right-- the suitors are right, penelope *should* remarry according to the norms of the world around her).

[ta-ether]

Something I’ve been thinking about lately is Achilles and Patroclus’ relationship. Not in how it’s presented in any particular property – this isn’t an analysis of how they appear in The Song of Achilles, or Hades – but more how their relationship is in the Iliad.

I guess the thing that’s been in the back of my mind ever since I read the Iliad (god, was it the summer before junior year of high school?) seven or so years ago, is that while Achilles and Patroclus are held up as this wonderfully romantic couple, this often comes at people glossing over certain aspects of their relationship that are complex or ask questions that have hard answers. Namely, the one that’s been niggling at me is the question that if Achilles is supposed to have loved Patroclus so much, why did he let him go out to fight?

The wonderful thing about Homer, the thing I so desperately love about Homer, is that there is such ambiguity to things. Homer seems to deliberately sidestep giving us concrete answers. The Iliad is a poem that thrives on nuance, and that extends to the exact nature of the relationship between these characters.

While Achilles swears early in the Iliad he won’t fight until his dignity is restored, Patroclus has a much softer heart (in addition to not having been wronged by Agamemnon). Patroclus’ arc from Book 1 to the beginning of 16 is watching the effect Achilles’ absence has on the rest of the Acheans. Achilles himself retreats into his ship and sends Patroclus out for news of how the battles are going, meaning it is Patroclus who is privy to the pain being wrought, and it is also Patroclus who Nestor eventually asks to intercede on the Argives’ behalf.

After the Trojans start seizing the Achean’s ships in Book 15, Patroclus finally goes and asks Achilles if he’ll return to the battle, or failing that, if he can go in his place and armor. He runs up and Achilles asks him why he’s crying like a little girl. Patroclus starts by saying “don’t be angry with me,” but then quickly himself becomes angry at Achilles after explaining how all of their friends and allies are wounded and suffering on the battlefield:

“But it’s impossible to deal with you, Achilles. I hope anger like this rage you’re nursing never seizes me. It’s disastrous! How will you be of use to anyone in later generations, if you won’t keep shameful ruin from the Argives? You’re pitiless. Perhaps horseman Peleus was not your father, nor Thetis your mother— the grey sea delivered you, some tall cliff, for you’ve an unyielding heart.”

He finishes by putting forth Nestor’s suggestion that if Achilles won’t rejoin the fight, he should. “I could be a saving light for the Danaans,” he says. Achilles responds that since the Trojans have come to the ships, he will allow Patroclus to go out in his armor. Now, this is where, famously, Achilles tells him not to go press past the ships:

“Now, pay attention to what I tell you about the goal I have in mind for you, so you’ll win me great honour and rewards, so all Danaans will send back to me that lovely girl and give fine gifts as well. Once you push Trojans from the ships, come back. If Zeus, Hera’s mate, who loves his thunder, gives you the glory, don’t keep on battling those war-loving Trojans with me absent. You would decrease my honours.”

While Achilles is undoubtedly worried about Patroclus’ safety, he mentions his desire for the honor and rewards that his “returning” to battle would bring him. He also brings up (before he says Apollo might make an attempt on Patroclus’ life) that the reason he wants Patroclus to retreat is that it would decrease his own honors. You can chalk this focus on the honor he may or may not receive to many different things, the most charitable of which is that Achilles isn’t taking this very seriously, and perhaps neither is Patroclus. This is backed up by Patroclus’ flippant approach on the battlefield:

“Well now, there’s an agile man! What a graceful diver! […] I suppose these Trojans must have acrobats as well.”

The point still remains that for all the love that Achilles has for Patroclus, his first instinct – like it has been for the entirety of the Iliad to this point – is concern about his own pride and honor, not the safety of his closest friend or fellow Argives. War takes, but Achilles was more focused on what it gives, and then it took his closest companion.

While Patroclus has more of an idea of the horrors of what the Achaeans have been going through in recent books – specifically Book 11 – he still hasn’t been on the field of battle since before the Iliad started. Patroclus pushes on beyond the ships because of his desire to fight and his own refusal to stop, and it is for this reason he is killed by Hector and Apollo. The narrative remarks:

“How blind he was, poor fool! If he’d done what the son of Peleus had told him, he’d have missed his evil fate, his own dark death.”

We learn later from Patroclus’ ghost in Book 23 that one of his flaws, perhaps his greatest and deadliest, is that he can become blinded by passion and lose reason.

“I killed Amphidamas’ son, in my foolishness. I didn’t mean to, but I was enraged over some game of dice.”

The narrative and Patroclus himself admits that if he’d taken a moment to consider, to think rationally, he wouldn’t have felt the need to continue fighting the Trojans, or to kill Amphidames’ son. The thrill of war and perhaps his own desire for honors hid this from him, and this in effect kills him.

As I alluded to earlier, this isn’t something I think many people touch on when thinking about Achilles and Patroclus’ relationship: the idea that ultimately, it was perhaps Achilles who killed Patroclus – or at the very least, lead to his death. The Iliad does start like this, after all:

“Sing, Goddess, sing the rage of Achilles, son of Peleus— that murderous anger which condemned Achaeans to countless agonies and threw many warrior souls deep into Hades, leaving their dead bodies carrion food for dogs and birds— all in fulfilment of the will of Zeus.”

One of those souls sent to Hades was Patroclus. Achilles even acknowledges this in Book 18.

“Then let me die, since I could not prevent the death of my companion. He’s fallen far from his homeland. He needed me there to protect him from destruction.”

Patroclus’ death isn’t tragic merely because he died, but because the man who loved him could’ve protected him but didn’t, and he knows it. I don’t want to downplay Patroclus’ own hubris’ role in his death or place all the blame on Achilles – merely point out that for all the love Achilles had for Patroclus, he still didn’t go out to fight when asked: first by his friends and allies, and then by his closest companion. He instead lets Patroclus go out in his place. Achilles’ love ultimately wasn’t stronger than his own pride.

This isn’t to say there’s not a deep, meaningful relationship between these two characters. There clearly, textually is. These two people love each other, however that love is interpreted. But they are also deeply flawed people. And, for all his faults, Patroclus knows that about Achilles. He knew that Achilles might put his own pride over the lives of all the Argives, including him, and so he asked if he could go instead. Even Hector knows this, as before he kills him he says:

“You poor wretch, even Achilles, for all his courage, was no use to you. Though he stayed behind, he must have given you strict orders as you left.”

And, for what it’s worth, Patroclus doesn’t say that he blames Achilles, either here in front of Hector, or when he comes to Achilles as a shade in Book 23 (and characters in the Iliad are decently prone to blaming people for their deaths). Ultimately, he seems to accept Achilles, flaws and all, and desires for them to be reunited in death, as does Achilles.

Their relationship isn’t simple and it’s not straightforward, because these characters aren’t simple or straightforward. Achilles both loves Patroclus more than any other Argive including himself, and also loves his own honor and pride over Patroclus. The incapability of these loves directly leads to Patroclus’ death. Patroclus is also more measured and rational than Achilles, and also is clouded to reason, and this incompatibility leads to his death. If the point of the Odyssey is (in part) that the Trojan War caused unnecessary death, then perhaps Patroclus’ death is that in microcosm.

Still, I can’t help but read Achilles and Patroclus’ relationship as one that – to be blunt – failed. They couldn’t make it work, in life at least. If you read it as a sexual-romantic relationship, maybe that’s its own tragedy. I don’t say this to make people angry or even because I necessarily wholly believe it, but more because their relationship is imperfect and should be recognized as such. Personally, I think this relationship, broken but full of love and affection and flaws, is much more compelling than a perfect or unexamined one.

It goes back to why I love the Iliad in the first place: the characters are messy and rather than this detracting from their ability to impact the reader, it only heightens their ability to speak to us. Homer doesn’t provide concrete answers for things, but he doesn’t have to. Everything we need is on the page. Every time you return to the book, the characters show you something new. I noticed a ton of new things about Achilles and Patroclus while writing this, which really only strengthened my belief in the points I made here. The tragedy of Patroclus’ death is, in part, one of how pride hurts those you love the most. The idea that Achilles caused Patroclus’ death is one that shouldn’t go unexamined because it’s perhaps unsavory, because it is in examining it that the true depths of their relationship are brought to light.

There are so many more things I could’ve mentioned: Achilles and Patrolcus’ status as equals, the role the idea of “fate” plays in Patroclus’ death, how the role the gods play in Patroclus’ death effects all this – but I felt that I would let those be for perhaps another time. As it stands now, I feel as though I have (at least personally) answered my initial question. It’s not a simple answer, but it wasn’t a simple question about simple characters in a simple work. And that is both fine and also, in its own way, beautiful.

[johaerys-writes]

Hi! I had an idea for a one shot about Achilles and Patroclus. You don't have to if you don't want to, I totally get it lol. But there's this one scene in the book where Patroclus cuts his wrist to take a blood oath, and tells Agamemnon Achilles' plan. When Patroclus comes back bleeding Achilles says "Will you tell me who hurt you?" --- I would like to request a fanfiction where someone hurts Pat and Achilles gets angry at them. Okay, thank you for your time lol. Love your writing btw. -Sienna

Awww thank you! When I first saw this, my brain instantly went: Modern AU!! I just couldn’t resist writing angry and frustrated teenage Achilles, and this quickly took on a life of its own. So have a one shot where Patroclus is bullied at school and Achilles goes on a rampage. 

I hope you like!! Only part of it here, the rest is up on AO3 because of length. 

CW: graphic depictions of violence, explicit language 

********

Patroclus is hiding something from him. Achilles has had his suspicions for a while.

First, there’s that day after spring break. Achilles is waiting for him outside the school gates after the classes are over, and Patroclus shows up late with his hair dishevelled and his glasses a little askew. When Achilles asks him what happened, Patroclus just tells him that it is nothing, that he dropped his glasses on his way out of class and they got bent out of shape. There's no reason not to believe him — Patroclus would never lie to him— but there's something in the way he says it that gives Achilles pause.

Patroclus insists that it’s nothing when Achilles asks him again, and gives the same answer when Achilles keeps asking him all the way back to the house, and then some, until Patroclus’ gaze takes on that resigned and detached look it usually does when Achilles presses him too much.

Achilles lets him be, just this once.

It is only a few days later that Achilles notices something else. It is a warm Sunday afternoon, and the hot and humid southern winds that blow through the oval stellated globes of the flowering lilacs send the white-purple petals cascading around them like snow. Achilles is lying on the warm grass with his arm curled under his head, and watches the dappled light that filters through the leaves overhead play languidly across Patroclus’ bare back. It is still a little damp from their swim in the stream beyond the olive grove, the drops of water on it shimmering in the sun, and there’s something about the way his tan skin prickles when the breeze blows that’s so captivating.

It is then that Achilles notices a bruise on his left shoulder, yellow bleeding at the edges of the dark purple of its core.

“What’s this?” he asks, and reaches out instinctively to touch it. “Where did you get it?”

Patroclus jolts slightly, recoils from his touch. “It’s nothing,” he mumbles.

“It’s something.”

Patroclus just shrugs and reaches for his shirt that’s lying beside him. He makes as if to pull it on over his head when Achilles catches him by the arm. Patroclus gasps when Achilles rolls over him and pins him to the grass, holding him down by the shoulders.

“What is it?” he asks. “Where did you get it?”

“It’s nothing, Achilles,” Patroclus says again. His eyes dart away, but then they quickly snap back to him, wide and panicked when Achilles leans down close enough that their noses touch. He fixes him with a hard look, unblinking.

“Tell me what it is. Tell me where you got it.”

Achilles can feel Patroclus’ shaky breath on his lips and the heat emanating from his skin, the cold tip of his nose pressing against his own, and he doesn’t know why that sends a shiver down his spine. Patroclus inhales slowly.  

“It’s from a wall,” he whispers. “I tripped and fell.”

“On a wall?”

Patroclus swallows, nods. His gaze slides away from Achilles' again, and Achilles can see the flush that creeps up his cheeks, the embarrassment. There’s no reason why Achilles shouldn’t believe him. Patroclus is rather clumsy after all, daydreaming and walking about with his nose stuck in his books. It could well be that he fell on a wall, though there’s something, something that's not sitting quite right.

“You’re hurting me,” Patroclus says quietly when Achilles tightens his grip on his shoulder without realising it.

“Oh. Sorry.” He lets him go and rolls off of him, and then simply watches as Patroclus hurriedly pulls on his shirt and stands up.

They don't talk much on the way back home, but Achilles knows there’s something wrong, something Patroclus isn't telling him. But Patroclus is silent and closed up like a clam now, and he blushes and averts his gaze whenever their eyes meet, like Achilles has done something to offend him.

Achilles doesn't press him anymore, after this.

~

It is late spring, and school usually finishes early. No one wants to stay in class for too long, not when the sun hangs hot and bright over the flat plains and rolling hills of Phthia, and elderly Mr. Phoenix is always getting terrible allergies from the pollen, so he lets them go early more often than not. Patroclus has extra classes in the afternoons, so Achilles hangs out with the lads from the football team behind the school gym until he’s done. Agamemnon sometimes brings beers, and Menelaus often carries weed with him, and Ajax just tags along.

Achilles finds them all a little dull, but he indulges them every so often because they all look up to him and want him around. All save for Agamemnon, that is; they’ve always had a bit of competition going on the two of them, and Agamemnon has been giving Achilles the side eye ever since he learned that both Clytemnestra and Helen fancy him, but what fault is it of his? Achilles can’t help that he’s the best in the track team and the captain of the football team and that the cheerleaders like him, or that Agamemnon looks like a cave troll and smells worse than one. That, least of all.

The conversation today is the usual — they talk about football, about the team, about Helen and Clytemnestra and their new cheerleader outfits, and Achilles listens with half an ear— until it isn’t.

It is Patroclus that steers it away. Agamemnon and the others see him crossing the yard with Briseis by his side, and that’s when the whispers start. First, they comment on the fact that he’s older than them but they’re all still in the same year. It’s old news now, but Achilles gets why it would still seem odd to them. He is the only one that knows that, when Patroclus first moved to Phthia, he was going through stuff and wasn’t studying much, so Mr. Chiron, the headmaster, insisted he repeat the whole year. Then they comment on his appearance, his quiet demeanour, his glasses, or the fact that when he’s not with Achilles he only hangs out with girls. And Achilles gets that too, because Patroclus isn’t like them, he’s not like any of them, he’s different and has always been. They could never hope to understand him or know him; they're not worthy.

That doesn't stop Achilles from speaking up and telling them all to shut it or else. No one speaks like this about Patroclus when he’s around, no one, get it?

Agamemnon is stunned only for a brief moment by his outburst, blinks up at him when he sees him looming threateningly over him. Then, he smiles.

“Why? Do you fancy him, Pellides?” He grins as the others start snickering. “Do you fancy Patroclus?”

The question gives Achilles pause. No, he doesn’t fancy Patroclus, that would be absurd. Patroclus is his friend. He likes spending time with him, yes, much more than he does with anyone else in the world, but that’s to be expected, considering that they’ve practically grown up together and all. And Patroclus is not like them, he’s not like Achilles either, he’s his own person and has his own thoughts that are too big and unusual for this sort of place, and he makes Achilles feel at home. He has this way of knowing exactly what to say, when to say it, and he knows Achilles better than anyone, better than his mother, his father, himself, even. And yeah, maybe, sometimes, when he goes to bed and deft hands slide under covers and layers of fabric as if on their own, it’s Patroclus he thinks about, and the soft sound of his laugh and the contemplative curl of his lip, his large doe-like eyes that seem to know too much, and the way the dappled light plays across his bare back when they go swimming together, but what of it? Friends do that.

Right?

Agamemnon’s knowing smile grates at him. Achilles punches him in the face and breaks his nose, for good measure.

He gets detention for it, of course. He knows they’ll tell his father, but he doesn’t care. It’s not like he’ll tell him anything, Achilles knows he will understand. To insult Patroclus would be to insult him (because Patroclus is part of the family and an extension of himself, and they’re together, together always) and no one insults a Pellides lightly, not around these parts. So Achilles grins when Mr. Chiron sternly orders him to sit in class for an extra two hours and write essays that no one has need for, then proceeds to glance at the papers before him with disdain and prop his feet on the desk like a punk because he feels like it.

Time glide by slowly, really slowly, and Achilles is bored. For two hours, Agamemnon’s question plays in his mind in a loop.

Do you fancy him, Pellides?

Achilles scoffs to himself, rolls his eyes. No, of course he doesn’t, of course. That’s not what this is about. Patroclus is his mate, right, his best mate. He’s more than a friend, actually, he’s more like a brother, he’s—

Look. It’s complicated, alright?

It all started that summer after first form. It was the worst summer of his life, by many accounts, not because it was the rainiest summer in the history of Phthian summers, nor because they hadn’t gone to Skyros like they always used to as a family, not even because his mother had packed her bags and finally left the house and Phthia for good. It wasn’t because of that. Achilles had expected that to happen at some point, perhaps not as soon or as abruptly, but she always used to tell him about her family up north and how she wanted to go back to them, and how little the warm and humid climate of Phthia agreed with her, and how much of a waste of air his father was.

Those weren’t the reasons why he had disliked that summer so much. It was because of the silence.

It was steady and deep, permeating every inch of the space, slithering under the door cracks and the half open windows. It wasn’t the tense and icy sort of quiet like before, when it felt like his parents were only a breath away from tearing at each other’s throats. It was more of a lull, a bubble of stillness, the calm before the storm. Achilles had expected it to break, had waited for the bubble to pop, but it never did. His father had disappeared into his work, and even when he was at home he would retreat to his office for ‘phone calls’ that would last hours, but Achilles could smell the whisky and cigar smoke that drifted down the long corridor.

And that was fine. Achilles didn’t need him anyway. He had his friends at school, Agamemnon and Menelaus and the others. They would all take their bikes and roam the town and the endless cotton fields beyond, miles upon miles of fluffy, snow white blooms; they even rode down to the beach once or twice. He had always found their company dull and Agamemnon had been loud and annoying even then, but Achilles hung out with them because to go back home would be to return to that silence and solitude, and he didn’t want to do that.

So he stayed out, for most of the summer. He continued staying out long after the summer had gone and passed, after the school had started and most of his friends, even Ajax and his brother, would go back home early to study. Achilles would stay out and just wander, wander.

He was failing classes. He was wasting away, and he knew it.

And then in his life wandered... him.

Well, not technically. His father had taken the car one day, and then he’d come back, and there Patroclus was, sitting in the passenger seat. He had only brought a single suitcase, which apparently held all of his belongings, and a small and peculiar guitar that used to belong to his mother, as Achilles learnt afterwards. Standing next to his father, who was tall and blonde and broad of shoulder, with his bronzed brow and his jade green eyes, Patroclus seemed like a lost child Peleus had picked up from the side of the road. He was small in stature, his dark curls falling over his eyes. He hadn’t looked Achilles in the eye, not even when Achilles had stood right before him.  

“Patroclus will be staying with us from now on,” his father had informed him merrily, then picked up Patroclus’ luggage to bring it up to the upstairs bedroom he would be staying in, next to Achilles’. “You two be good now, you hear?” he’d said before he left, and ruffled both of their hair.

And that had been it. Not much of an explanation, but Achilles hadn’t bothered looking for one. There was finally someone in the house besides himself and his father, who wasn’t there at all, really, and that was enough for him.

“Can you ride a bike?” Achilles had asked him.

Patroclus had looked up at him then for the first time, his round and dark eyes somewhat fearful, before he had given him a slow nod.

They didn’t spend much time apart, after this.

Read the rest on AO3!

[streets-in-paradise]

Family Matters

Troy (2004) reader insert fanfiction - Part 5

The option to vinculate links on words is not working right now for me, i don’t know why. I will add the links to the previous parts later. For now, all can be found in the Troy (2004) tag of my blog. 

Word Count: 2.858

Characters: Agamemnon, Menelaus, Achilles, Myceneaean Princess Reader. 

Relationships: Family relationships of the House of Atreus, Agamemnon and Achilles’ rivality. 

Warnings: Agamemnon and Menelaus being dickheads, hints of casual sexism. 

Summary: Agamemnon finds out about his daugther’s new friendship and his brother tries to stop him from making a big deal about it. 

Disclaimers: As i explained before, i try to follow Troy’s characterizations of most of the characters as much as i can. The Atrides are going to be douchebags because that’s how the movie portrays them. I just discovered i have lots of fun writing about this two scumbags, this was super fun to write. I felt them like the fun kind of scumbags while doing this. 

Tags: @yerevasunclair​ @hrisity12​ 

Thanks for reading!! 

Once the celebrations concluded and the guests started to return to their homelands the princess of Mycenae begged her father to let her stay in Sparta for a longer while instead of returning with him to their kingdom. Agamemnon didn't find major inconvenients on her request. He seemed pretty pleased with the image of family unity that the friendship of his daughter and his sister in law was reflecting. As long as Menelaus could be able to keep her under his watch and bring her back when she would wish it, he didn't have issues against it. For once, he didn't have anything to criticize. 

They discussed the topic early because she wanted to make sure of having enough time to convince him in the case of getting a straight negatory as first reply. She did it shortly before saying goodbye to Odysseus and Penelope, so she would be able to count with her biggest supporters in case of need. Before leaving, the king of Ithaca reminded her in a teasing tone to keep going with the good behaviour. The queen showed her gratitude for the help she was providing to her cousin. She hugged both of them with a great amount of enthusiasm and love. 

The situation became more complicated a short while after. Achilles was leaving the same day, joining his friend in the first stages of his travel. Without any consideration and staying true to his carefree style, he personally greeted the princess in front of her father. 

It was then when the king found out about their meeting. 

" Odysseus introduced us." she tried to excuse herself after seeing the horrified expression in her father's face. Achilles was trying to act in a cautious way because he didn't want to upset her, but the gesture was enough to make Agamemnon's blood boil and it was visible in his reaction. " It was just a formal introduction, very brief."  she lied. 

" I imagined it was a possibility. I wonder why I wasn't informed about it?"  the king recrimined her, looking at her with a deadly serious stare. 

" We didn't consider it necessary. " Achilles added. " As she said, it was very brief. Although, i felt i needed to approach her for a proper goodbye." 

" Since when do you have good manners? You are a killer beast." 

" I can be nicer when i want to be." 

Anticipating a new fight, she interrupted them in an attempt to calm them down. 

" There is no need for hostilities." 

" I didn't give you permission to speak." her father shut her up.

" You should, your rulership would be more stable if you listened to her from time to time. She is very clever and she loves her country. She told me some very interesting things about it, her eloquence makes you feel curious. She does a better job than you in selling off your unity ideal. I have the feeling that she could rule the country better than you. '' Achilles mocked him. 

She wished she could laugh openly at the comment. 

" Like if you knew anything about rulership. You are nothing more than an insolent soldier!!!"  Agamemnon replied, emphasizing the last sentence.

Before the argument could start to escalate they were interrupted by Menelaus. She felt relieved because all the work would not rely on Odysseus again. 

" What's the problem, brother? He is just teasing you." the spartan king commented in a relaxed tone. " Great joke, very appropriate. Polite but innocent. I'm not entirely sure of which one of you is supposed to insult more."  

" Why would it be insulting to me? " she asked, trying to hide her annoyance. 

" Because it is so irrelevant that it's funny. '' Menelaus started to laugh." If he truly wanted to compliment you he should have said something about your face or your hair, he could have praised anything else instead of your talent with words. You are not a diplomat, you are a young princess. That's not how you talk to a girl, that's how you close a negotiation. If all he has to say about you is that you talk a lot then he doesn't have anything too valuable. If I was your father I would be very calm about it. " 

" To praise a woman's intelligence is like to value a bird for its feet, absolutely pointless." Agamemnon added. " I must assume he is in the mood for strange jokes. " 

" Take it as you prefer, but I wasn't talking to you. "  the warrior replied, as sharply as usual.

The girl felt touched by his implícit defense. 

" It was an honour and a pleasure to meet you. I wish you good luck and a safefull return to your home." 

" You don't need to worry for him, darling. Danger itself is afraid of him. " Menelaus joked , interrupting them again. 

" I'm as used to danger as your uncle is to chaze girls young enough to be your cousins. " 

Instead of taking him seriously, the king of Sparta laughed again.

" You are a madman, but you never fail to amuse me. I think that the real reason why you two don't get along is because my brother doesn't get your sense of humour. He is a very serious man, always has been. " 

His niece was very happy because she guessed Achilles said that sharp commentary as a hint for her. From the many they had over the week, at least he remembered their deepest conversation. He took the bother of acting as her voice, saying to Menelaus at least a bit of everything she wished she could yell at him. It was a beautiful, kind gesture, more than she ever expected of him. 

She would have shown herself in absolute awe if it wasn't for the rampant rage she felt after witnessing her uncle laughing at something that would have enraged him if it would have been said by her. Pretending to keep engaged in the conversation, she defended Agamemnon. She hated to do it, but it was necessary to look less partial. 

" The weight of the crown makes him more wary but he has his moments."  

" It is the first reasonable thing i heard from you so far." he replied, with a bit of sarcasm." Go with your aunt... NOW!!" 

The young lady obeyed because she had no other choice. Without daring to emit a single sound, her gaze followed Achilles's one last time in a silent goodbye. He smiled at her with the same intention.

 She had to stand a long nagging session afterwards. Once the public gaze was no longer a concern Agammenon was free to show all his disgust and disappointment, threatening about how he was going to drag her back to Mycenae and lock her in the palace until she learned how to behave. 

She barely listened to him, her focus was almost entirely centered in her happy thoughts about Achilles. She was thinking of his beautiful blue eyes, his sweet smile, how much she enjoyed his company and how amazing he was for defending her in front of the biggest authorities of the place. He was so subtle that neither Agamemnon or Menelaus noticed anything. It felt like a last secret gift from him, something only them understood. 

Nothing else  mattered anymore. Not in a hopeless way but in a happy one instead. She was there pretending to care while keeping the happiness in her mind. It was the strangest and most amazing sensation. 

Her uncle was trying to defend her, but that didn't matter as well. She knew he was doing it for his own selfish reasons. He needed her there so she could stay to keep Helen calm, helping her to adapt and teaching her to ignore how much she hated him. She was going to use him for her own reasons as well, making him believe she was helping him when in fact her only objective was to protect Helen from him.

" Look at how happy she is. I can't be more pleased, I would love to have her around some more time" Menelaus was claiming. 

" SHE SHAMED ME!!! DO YOU WANT TO PRAISE HER FOR WHAT SHE DID TO ME ??"  his brother complained, yelling annoyingly.  

" Achilles was going to find another way to laugh one way or another. That's how he is, you don't need to punish her for it. " 

" Can you stop protecting her? We always face the same situation. She does something wrong and you want me to ignore it. Why was she talking to Achilles in the first place???" 

" Because we were in a party, a place where it is expected for you to meet people, and we were introduced to each other? "  she answered, trying to reflect some logic. 

" An introduction shouldn't last more than the time and words required to say your name and rank." 

" I wanted to make you look good in front of him. As you always say, I'm representing you. You wouldn't have liked me to act rude, you say it looks terrible in a woman. Some casual talk is needed to keep the appearances. He is important to you, I needed to keep him happy. " she defended herself. 

" Circunstancies force me to need of him, he is not important. You don't have to make him feel important. It is the worst thing you can do. Do you have any idea of how hard it is for me to deal with his ridículous pretensions???? "

" You didn't give me proper instructions on what to do. I had to guess and I did what i would had done in any formal meeting. "

" YOU TREATED HIM LIKE A KING!! He is nothing but a soldier!! You don't owe him any sort of formality, kindness or attention. He is nothing to you, NOTHING!" Agamemnon  emphasized.

Menelaus did his best to soften his speech. 

" What your father tries to say is that he thinks a soldier, despite his fame and recognition, doesn't deserve the same treatment you would give to a royal. A lady of your position shouldn't bother with him, not even regarding positive impressions. That kind of behaviour, even with good intentions on your part, feeds his idea of considering himself higher and greater than his general and king. "  he explained to her in a condescending way, like if she was completely ignorant on the matter. " You can't treat him like you would treat Odysseus. It feeds his ego and that makes things harder for your father.”

" I just tried to be nice. I heard he is a bad tempered hero who gets easily offended. " she fakely apologised. 

Menelaus was smiling at her with his usual enthusiasm. It hurted her a bit to not be able to correspond it but, in her cheerful state, fake it was easier than ever. 

" I know, you did good." he praised her." It's not your fault, you weren't sure of how to react.  Nobody prepared you for it." 

" NOW IT IS MY FAULT??? WHY DID YOU HAD TO INVITE HIM???"  Agamemnon complained, hysterically. 

" Have you seen my wife? She is the prettiest thing i have ever seen. I wanted her to be seen by everyone, you can't blame me. I bet not even Achilles himself had a woman as beautiful as mine. I had to ask him myself." 

" Did you actually ask him? His niece questioned him, laughing a bit and hiding her awkward reaction. Something of that did make her laugh for sure. Both kings were talking of Achilles like if he was a nobody that didn't matter, yet Menelaus had the need of proving himself in front of him. He made him come to his wedding so he could satisfy his masculine needs using Helen as a symbol. He wanted to show off to a godlike handsome man desired by many women that he got a particularly splendid woman he could only be able to dream of having. She was very amused while hearing his response. 

" Sure i did. He had to recognize I was right. There is no woman on this lands as gorgeous as mine. We may have our differences but nobody denies that. It's the only fact every greek agrees with. " 

" A good symbol of unity, the best idea you came up with lately. " she added, keeping the facade of cheerful approbation. 

" You always get me so quickly. That's my girl!!" he replied, hugging her sideways.

" I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR PRETTY WIFE, MENELAUS! THAT'S NOT THE POINT NOW!!" Agamemnon kept shouting. 

" Brother, you know i follow and support all your choices but you don't need to question her now. She had good intentions. " 

" Intentions don't justify terrible results. MY DAUGHTER , OF ALL PRINCESSES, WAS THE ONE TREATING HIM WITH HONOURS!! " 

" I already told you i'm sorry. What do you want me to do? Insult him the next time I see him?" she joked, fed up of his stupidity. 

"Let's hope there will be no next time. " her father assured her. " I try very hard to gradually trust you in the spaces a woman of your age should start attending. I know it is important but you keep bringing me more headaches. You are my daughter, ACT AS SUCH!" 

" Ajax says I'm lovely." she excused herself. 

" I CAN'T GET YOU MARRIED TO A BRUTE FROM AN INSIGNIFICANT KINGDOM!!" 

That was all he seemed to care about, his only obligation as a father. She was so relaxed that she barely cared about the mention of that delicate issue. Her good mood was a good push to keep inventing excuses to delay the talk.

" You have plenty of time to think about it but the world is not going to be conquered by itself. Soon you will rule every corner, being crowned as the greatest emperor of our history. I will be swimming in a sea of suitors, maybe even bigger than Helen's. This little incident will feel funny, we will be so powerful that men would embarrass themselves in front of me to get my approbation regardless of my behaviour. "

" Did you hear that? She is proud of you" Menelaus teased. 

" Of course i am. My dear father is the greatest conqueror this world has ever seen. Free cities tremble to the mention of his name. " she exaggerated to flatter him. As always, she was going to get what she wanted with lies. " I know some people like to spread lies and exaggerations claiming that you would be nothing without Achilles but the truth is that he would be nothing without you. You made him who he is, that ungrateful bastard is becoming a legend because he is fighting for you."  She said exactly what he wanted to hear, knowing she would get a positive response. 

" That's what i always say but nobody listens!! Nestor and Odysseus expect me to stand back and accept his pressures, your uncle thinks everything is a joke. That man doesn't respect me, he never listens to me! He is a threat to my position as commander of the army, I can't allow him to do as he pleases. What kind of example is that to other soldiers? To the kings whose armies are under my command???" 

" A seed of rebellion, you can't hold a weapon you can't control. That's why you do your best to keep him at bay. " she reassured him. " I'm sorry if my intervention ruins your plans. I tried to be a pleasant company to show off and make you proud. "  

Agamemnon was backing off slowly. He never used to make his changes of mind evident. She noticed it because his expression, still severe, didn't show the same rage anymore. 

" I can let it pass... for now,"  he sentenced. 

She gave him her sweetest fake smile, pleased with the outcome of her manipulation. 

" You are the best." 

" Don't make me regret it. " 

" You never asked how the meeting with Achilles felt for me. '' she reminded him, trying to stay on his good side. " He is the most insufferable vain man I have ever met. He thinks he is the best thing that happened to mankind since the flame of Prometheus. I don't know how you stand him. I deceived him because making him feel important was all I could do to keep him calmed. " 

Her lie amused both kings and they laughed in approbation. 

The young lady considered the discussion concluded in her favour. Explicit recognition was impossible, but she read it in their attitudes. Usually, hostilities ceasing and the matter being dismissed was the clearest sign. Disengaging was their way of losing without admitting it. They simply changed the subject and continued as always. She didn't even need to ask again if she could stay in Sparta, the agreement was implicit between both brothers. 

She left the family meeting with airs of triumph, secure of her possibilities. She managed to deceive Agamemnon and Menelaus at the same time. Her ability to fake was intact after all. As she handled both sons of Atreus at once, she started to feel perfectly capable to keep doing it with just one of them for the sake of Helen's wellbeing.

[missfay49]

Who is Orange?

Disclaimer: Please enjoy?  Accept?  Beware?  This… Thing that started out as character analysis and turned into a deranged fanfic, because I experienced a literal revelation mid-way through free writing.  I did not clean this up much because I’m still reeling from the theory implications myself.  I cursed a lot.

~

What does Orange Side represent?

What do we know?

Orange is a “Dark Side”, defined as being one of the Sides hidden from C!Thomas.

The other Hidden Sides were Janus, Remus, and Virgil.

All the Hidden Sides were hidden due to a key aspect of their character that C!Thomas had to first acknowledge and then accept.  Virgil required C!Thomas to acknowledge that he had heightened anxiety and accept that anxiety isn’t inherently wrong, just a different form of information that can be processed.  Remus required C!Thomas to acknowledge that he had intrusive thoughts and accept that those thoughts don’t make him evil; they’re just thoughts.  Janus required C!Thomas to acknowledge that he was capable of lying and accept that acting “selfishly” sometimes isn’t just okay, but actually critically important to managing stress.

 What are the common themes here?  

Confronting the reality about ourselves instead of pretending some traits don’t exist.

Understanding ourselves to be more complex than ‘good’ and ‘evil’.

Addressing mental health.  

Orange Side is still hidden, but we can expect him to be something C!Thomas doesn’t want to (or isn’t ready to) acknowledge.  Something that would be difficult to accept about oneself.  All Hidden Sides fall under the jurisdiction of Janus, so let’s take another look at him.

In “Can Lying Be Good?” we get a lot of information about what Janus’ purpose is:

Roman: It you really don’t want to know something, he… can keep our mouths shut.

Logan: You don’t want to believe it.  That’s where his power comes from.  Things that you want to believe.  Things that you wish were true.  And things that you wish weren’t.

Deceit: What you don’t know can’t hurt you.

This all means that Orange Side is something that would cause C!Thomas distress to learn and something he subconsciously wishes weren’t true.  This is not new information to most of you: the spin-off interpretations of Apathy and Pride are widely popular fandom theories, traits that are typically viewed as negative in large doses.

But the Hidden Sides being seen as something negative isn’t their only defining characteristic.  They typically involve an aspect a mental health, involve societal expectations, and... what is it...

Janus is the umbrella over all the other Hidden Sides, sheltering and obscuring them from view. He is the gatekeeper in a very literal sense.  What is he gatekeeping?  

What is it?  What is it what is it, why?  What does he do?  What seems bad but isn’t?  What can he do?  What issue is actually useful?  What’s useful what’s useful WHATS USEFUL WHATS USEFUL?!  WHY DOES IT HAVE TO USEFUL?

shitshitSHITSHISTHISTSTs

I KEPT ASKING MYSELF, WHAT’S USEFUL?  WHAT TRAIT COULD IT BE THAT APPEARS BAD, BUT ISN’T BAD, IS ACTUALLY USEFUL.  ANIEXTY WAS OKAY BECAUSE HE WAS JUST LOOKING OUT FOR US.  LYING WAS OKAY BECAUSE HE JUST WANTED TO PUT C!THOMAS FIRST.  INTRUSIVE CREATIVITY WAS OKAY BECAUSE DARK IDEAS OPEN UP NEW PATHS.

But the whole GODDAMN POINT is ACCEPTANCE!  

You don’t HAVE to be useful to be accepted.  You – yuo just BE.  YOU BE!

PEOPLE don’t have to prove their Usefulness to you before you can treat them with respect.  Our WORTH does not depend on what we PRODUCE. YE GODS, THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE I JUST BROKE-

~~~

C!Thomas comes back from his self-care stay-cation.  He’s ready to start production, he is rested and refreshed.  BUT JUST LIKE EVERY PREVIOUS DILEMMA, it isn’t Good enough, Original enough, Fast enough.  He’s done everything right, why is it still wrong?  He’s accepted his anxiety, he’s accepted that things aren’t just black and white, he’s Accepted That It’s OKAY to have Dark Thoughts, he Has ACCEPTED SELF_CARE.  Why Isn’t IT ENOUGH?!

“Fuck it.”  

C!Thomas spins in his chair, looking at a man that looks just like him, but not quite.

“What?”

“Fuck it.  Fuck them.”

“You sound like Remus,” Thomas jokes.  He’s lying, of course.  He’s nervous. The Side looks like a normal guy, but something about him is unsettling.  The unidentified Side just presses his lips together, unimpressed.

“Um, ef w-who, exactly?” Thomas asks, but part of him already knows.

“All of them.  Every person who isn’t you.  Every person who expects something from you.”

“Now, you sound like Janus.” Thomas looks back at the computer screen, but the Side’s retort has him spinning around again.  

“Janus is a short-sighted pseudo-rebellious minion of a capitalistic society, just like the rest of them.”

“Uh, excuse me?!”

“Isn’t it obvious? They’re all obsessed with Success. Whether they want to play by the rules, or manipulate them, or break them, whether it’s making money or pumping out good deeds, they’re still just trying to make you be successful within the framework of a system that prioritizes production over a human life.”

Thomas just stares for a moment before he can find his voice.

“Who are you?”

“Dude, seriously?”  He waves his hands, palms up and presenting himself.  “I’m Achilleus.  I’m your motivation.”

~~~

Take a deep breath and follow me down the research black hole, where every topic I looked up was more and more terrifyingly appropriate: 

Freedom

noun

the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

Self-Determination

noun

the process by which a person controls their own life.

Autonomy

noun

(in Kantian moral philosophy) the capacity of an agent to act in accordance with objective morality rather than under the influence of desires.

Autonomic Nervous System (because i believe each Hidden Side is closer to the subconscious)

noun

the part of the nervous system responsible for control of the bodily functions not consciously directed, such as breathing, the heartbeat, and digestive processes.

Inherent Value

“inherent value in the case of animal ethics can be described as the value an animal possesses in its own right, as an end-in-itself” – Animal Rights – Inherent Value, by Saahil Papar

Intrinsic Value

“Intrinsic value has traditionally been thought to lie at the heart of ethics. Philosophers use a number of terms to refer to such value. The intrinsic value of something is said to be the value that that thing has “in itself,” or “for its own sake,” or “as such,” or “in its own right.”” – Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Value, by Michael J. Zimmerman and Ben Bradley

“Finally, his sense of respect for the intrinsic value of entities, including the non-sentient, is the Kantian notion of the inherent value of all Being.  This is based on the notion that a universe without moral evaluators (e.g. humans) would still be morally valuable, and there is no reason not to regard Being as inherently morally good.” – Technology and the Trajectory of Myth, by David Grant, Lyria Bennett Moses

Motivation

“Another way to conceptualize motivation is through Self-Determination Theory … which is concerned with intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.  Intrinsic motivation happens when someone does something for its inherent satisfaction.” – Second Language Acquisition Myths: Applying Second Language Research to Classroom Teaching, by Steven Brown, Jenifer Larson-Hall

Capitalism

“The flowery language of the United States Declaration of Independence would have you believe that human life has an inherent value, one that includes inalienable rights such as “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” But in America, a major indicator of value is actually placed on being a productive member of society, which typically means working a job that creates monetary revenue (especially if the end result is accumulated wealth and suffering was inherently involved in the process).” – The Diminished Value of Human Life in a Capitalistic Society, by Seren Sensei

Religion

“At the heart of the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism lay the insurmountable chasm between God’s sovereign election versus human self-determination.” – Sovereignty vs. Self-determination: Two Versions of Ephesians 1:3-14, by Reformed Theology

Mythology

“In Classical Greece, Achilles was widely admired as a paragon of male excellence and virtue. Later, during the height of the Roman Empire, his name became synonymous with uncontrollable rage and barbarism… He chooses kleos (glory) over life itself, and he owes his heroic identity to this kleos. He achieves the major goal of the hero: to have his identity put permanently on record through kleos…

“But is this really an accurate characterization of Achilles' pivotal decision? Is he really driven to sacrifice his life by an obsessive quest for honor and glory? One scene in the Iliad suggests the answer to both questions is no.

“When Achilles leaves the battlefield after his dispute with Agamemnon, the Trojans gain the upper hand on the Greeks. Desperate to convince their best warrior to return, Agamemnon sends an envoy of Achilles' closest friends to his tent to persuade him to reconsider his decision. During this scene, Achilles calmly informs his friends that he is no longer interested in giving up his life for the sake of heroic ideals. His exact words are below:

“The same honor waits for the coward and the brave. They both go down to Death, the fighter who shirks, the one who works to exhaustion (IX 386-388)…

“Not only does Achilles reject the envoy's offers of material reward, but he rejects the entire premise that glory is worth a man's life.” – making sense of a hero’s motivation, by Patrick Garvey

Achilles (/əˈkɪliːz/ ə-KIL-eez) or Achilleus (Ancient Greek: Ἀχιλλεύς, [a.kʰilˈleu̯s])

Achilles realizes his own inherent self-worth, thereby freeing himself from the expectations of others; societal or otherwise.  Only once we are free can we find the balance between our own needs and the needs of others in a way that breeds neither anger nor resentment in either.

~~~

But that’s... that’s just... a theory.   Huh.

[staghunters]

Thoughts on Stephen Fry’s Troy

Sorta review/critique. A thing to keep in mind is that I‘ve not read a direct translation of the Iliad so this really is my first experience of the epic besides general knowledge of it that is present in pop culture and such.

It’s a long one so I’ll put a break here

First off, there’s a little preface, map, olympian family tree, and timeline of the entirety of ancient history. Very nice to include, though I used these very little in my reading. Nontheless they can be useful for people who are very new to mythology and the layout of the ancient world.

I think I read the epilouge section titled myth and reality after the preface. Not sure why they put it in the back, perhaps for spoilers, but it functions good as a disclaimer before stepping into the main story. There is also a list of actors after this, which are again useful but not something I used a lot personally. 

Now for the main story! I’ll not be going over everything, just the things that stood out for me. Again disclaimer that this is the first time I read a version of the fall of Troy, so my impressions may deviate from ‘canon’ but be sure to correct me/add where you like.

I did not know Helena was a daughter of Zeus or that she had any brothers oof. (Arguably the brothers leave the story very early so I don’t think it’s that bad of me).

I like the idea of a lottery to determine who will marry Helena, but also think that Menelaus is an obvious choice. Given that they have lived together and know each other for a long time, they have a good foundation to build a relationship on.

Agamemnon comes across as an honourable man, but does not shy away from showing his emotions. Iphigeneia in Aulis is a touching section where he stalls the sacrifice of his daughter as long as possible and comes with counterarguments to make it not happen. Fry picks the version where Iphigeneia is spared by Artemis, but does not tell where she is taken which is a bit of a shame.

Odysseus is a smart bastard. I like that.

Paris goes from a kind boy to a selfish man, something that is adressed by characters in the story. I would not go as far as to say that he is Bad, but his morals are very grey.

His siblings and Hebe and Priamos are on the contrary quite reasonable the entirety of the story. They try to make things the best for Helena given the circumstances, and stand up to Paris when needed.

Hector is amazing wow.

I think Kassandra is the most present after him, but I’m not sure if I liked the way Fry chose to depict the whole seeing-the-future-but-nobody-listens because it is done quite literally. At key moments Kassandra is there to cry out her observations but is just not adressed by the others around her. It stands in contrast with Laokoon, who is acknowledged but also ignored. I feel like Fry could’ve brought some more creativity in this case. In general Kassandra feels like the odd one out of the Trojan siblings, not really seeming to be one of them.

Kind of continueing on Kassandra, Helenus is briefly mentioned at times and his foretelling of things is even more minimal. It would’ve been an easy step to make some sort of connection between him and Kassandra, but again I’m not sure if that is in the original text.

Achilles and Patroclus are very well done in my opinion. Achilles has his moments of anger and honour, and Patroclus is not a softboy standing on the sidelines. I always thought Patroclus took Achilles’ armour in secret but here he discusses it with Achilles and he agrees to let him borrow it. When Patroclus dies, there is a section of how fierce the battle for his body is, signaling how all the Greeks cared for him.  

Briseis also seems like an addition to Patroclus and Achilles, if that is the correct phrasing. The dynamics they have can make you interpret them as either Pat and Achilles acting like big brothers of Briseis, or a “X has two hands” kind of thing (where they all hold hands). 

Diomedes and Odysseus act like colleagues mostly, frequently going on missions together to get someone or infiltrate Trojan outposts. I thought it odd that when they steal the Palladion, Odysseus suddenly has the desire to kill Dio as to take the honor for himself. It is brushed of by Odysseus as being an influence of the Palladion, but seems more ambiguous in Fry’s wording. Regardless, seemed out of character regarding the bond the two have.

Helena has regrets later of going with Paris. Fry leaves the options open wether she acted under the influence of Aphrodite or if it was her own decision. Aphrodite does pop up at times to force something upon Helena. While not a sympathetic characterisation of the godess, it does serve as an example that the gods generally do not care much for the wellbeing of those involved in their “games”. This is underlined by Fry in regards to Thetis by saying that the gods generally do not feel much empathy for mortals and that Thetis is very much an exception in the case of Achilles.

Thetis is a bit of an overbearing mom in this, but it does not feel wrong per se.

The other gods come on the stage at some moments in the first half. After that Fry draws a line with Zeus further prohibiting them from interfering with the war.

The Trojan Horse has some detail and is not just ships in the vague shape of a horse a la Troy 2004. It’s got colours, expressions,  a very funky horse.

The siege from within is Brutal. Neoptolemos is definitely not his father and much more aggresive. Fry points out moments where some good was done but emphasizes that the party we have been with and somewhat rooting for the past pages is not free of commiting atrocities. Kassandra predicts her own death and Agamemnon’s to him. Fry did make him say that Klytaimnestra would probably understand/be happy for bringing back Kassandra as a slave. All in all adding to the fact that he does not hate his wife like some other adaptations/people like to suggest, but is instead oblivious or just naive for the fact that the sacrifice of Iphigenia harmed their relationship.

The main story ends with the gods being Disgusted by all of it. I’m assuming Fry will save a bit of the return of the Greeks for a book on the Odyssey which is fine I guess but leaves this one a bit open ended. 

Would recommend this if you’ve never read an Iliad story before and want something that provides you with extended information as well as fun facts about the events. It’s a very accesible read despite some of its flaws.

[goreprofonde]

One of the reasons the Oedipus myth resonates, I think, is the same reason so many other Greek myths do. Their stock-in-trade is not merely crime and punishment, heroism and reward; rather, these myths deal with taboo-shattering transgression: homicide, filicide, patricide, incest, cannibalism, bestiality, sacrilege — an anti-bucket list if ever there was one.

Unfortunately, the myth continues to hold fascination due to centuries of misinterpretation. If you read Sophocles’ Oedipus Tyrannus in high school, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that when the smoke cleared the big takeaway was “fate vs. free will.”

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Anyone who reads the OT or teaches the OT needs to read this article by E.R. Dodds and take its lessons to heart:

Oedipus is not a plaything of the gods. He is not a helpless victim of fate. In Greek myth, prophecies exist to come true. There’s a sticky situation in the Odyssey where a prophecy might have been avoided (in Book 13, re: the extermination of the Phaeacians), but in every other instance prophecies have a 100% completion rate. This fact does not, however, preclude Oedipus’ own agency in his (and others’) ruin. If memory serves, Dodds illustrates this point about free will by citing the example of Peter’s betrayal of Jesus in the Bible. At the Last Supper Jesus predicts that Peter will deny him three times. Jesus doesn’t make Peter do so — he just makes an accurate prediction. And so it is with Greek prophecies.

Ah, comes the objection, but without the oracle Oedipus would have lived footloose and fancy-free in Corinth for the rest of his life. But the Delphic Oracle wasn’t a door-to-door enterprise. Oedipus went to them. Some random drunk questioned his parentage. Now, Polybus and Merope could have done a lot of people a big favor by leveling with their adoptive son, but they were more interested in protecting the line of succession at Corinth. We mustn’t judge too harshly. They told Oed to let it go, but he just had to know the truth — his very name is suggestive of knowledge. (Gr. oida = “I know”)

Now. Two Greek words get tossed around a lot when studying this play. The first is hamartia — typically rendered as “tragic flaw.” And the word can have that “innate character flaw” connotation. In the New Testament it is the word used for “sin.” The only reason we know this word in connection with tragedy is that Aristotle used the term in his Poetics; and he applied it directly to Sophocles’ OT. Here’s the thing: the context makes it clear that Aristotle is not attributing a character flaw to Oedipus. Rather, hamartia here means an error in judgement. When describing the role of hamartia in Greek tragedy, Aristotle pairs the OT with the lost play Thyestes. Thyestes’ deal in Greek myth was that he mistook his butchered children for regular barbecue and ate them. So Oedipus, then, made an error in judgement: in order to avoid killing his father and marrying his mother he took steps that achieved the opposite result.

This error, in fact, is really a series of errors. Oedipus tells Jocasta that he asked the Delphic Oracle who his real parents were. He goes on to tell Jocasta that the Oracle did not answer his question, but instead told him that he would kill his father and marry his mother. Wrong! The Oracle did answer his question — Hey, dumbass: you’re going to kill a man who turns out to be your father and marry a woman who turns out to be your mother. Learning this new piece of information, Oedipus compounds his mistake by now treating as certain (Polybus and Merope are his birth parents) the very idea that had filled him with such doubt.

But cannot an error in judgement stem from some innate flaw? If Oedipus has a flaw, it would seem to be his hubris — his pride. Right? Yes and no. Oedipus is a proud man, sure. And he has reason to be. He solved the riddle of the Sphinx when no one else could. This success encouraged him to believe even something as ineluctable as an oracle issued from Delphi was just another problem to be solved. It’s been a while since I’ve read the OT in English and even longer since I’ve read it in Greek, but it is my recollection that Oedipus uses a fair amount of scientific/mathematical vocabulary — indicative of a problem-solving mindset.

But back to hubris. It doesn’t mean pride:

Greek Dictionary Headword Search Results

As understood by the ancient Greeks, hubris was an act of violence against another (human or divine) in an attempt to assert dominance beyond what is proper. In the play that bears his name, Agamemnon displays hubris when he tramples on tapestries meant for the gods. In the Persae, Xerxes’ hubris entails crimes against both man (trying to enslave Greece) and nature (bridging the Hellespont, lashing the uncooperative sea). Unlike Agamemnon and Xerxes, it is difficult to find fault with Oedipus. Of course he’s going to try to outwit the Delphic Oracle. Patricide is generally frowned upon and makin’ bacon with your mom is icky, MILF or not.

We find the story of Oedipus (Sophocles’ OT, in particular) so compelling because it shows us a good man trying to do the right thing with spectacularly disastrous results.

- Chad Turner, Why is it that the Oedipus myth resonates so much with a Westerner (Generic collective)? /Quora.

[corinthbayrpg]

NAME. Anemos ( Lincoln Donato & Grace Tate-Starling ) AGE & BIRTH DATE. 3000+ & Unknown GENDER & PRONOUNS. Nonbinary & He/She/They SPECIES. Oneiroi OCCUPATION. Photographer / Socialite FACE CLAIM. Regé-Jean Page / Phoebe Tonkin

BIOGRAPHY

( tw: servitude, death, murder ) Anemos does not remember the exact time of their creation. Too many years have passed, and too much has happened for it to remain of relevance in their mind. If asked, they might simply shrug their shoulders, and pretend as if the matter was of no consequence. To give off the appearance of youth has always served them well, as to be underestimated by those around them. But in reality, the oneiroi has seen millenniums come and go, the rise and fall of kings and nations alike. Though created by the hands of Nyx, perhaps it is of some humor that the first solid memory they have is of Zeus. Summoned before the mighty God, Anemos was given the order to carry a dream to the Greek king Agamemnon, urging him into battle against the Trojans. They traveled to his tent outside of Troy in the evening, taking the face of the king’s most trusted advisor, and with them they brought the promise of the Gods’ favor from Mount Olympus, spinning it like a web inside of the king’s mind while he slept. It was with this dream that Anemos played a hand in the fall of Troy, giving them a taste of the power that they could wield over the minds of mortals. And yet, once their job was done, the Gods fell silent to the oneiroi. No more instruction came at the time, left to their own devices to wander the world freely without a feeling of true purpose. 

It was fun, for a time. The influence they could hold on others was a source of entertainment, as they shifted through faces and identities as often as it pleased them. But a life alone is a life of loneliness, and Anemos was not immune to those feelings. Even as they enjoyed their revelry, there was still the feeling of being incomplete. So, in the absences of their creator, the Gods, and any others of their kind, Anemos began to look for companionship with the creatures of the earth. They began to make their presence known in the world, and became sought out by many kings and commoners alike for their abilities. Divination in particular was heavily desired, the mortal pull to know a man’s own future all too irresistible, though in seeking for themselves, the answers they received would only lead to a worse outcome as the people tried to escape their fate. The truly clever ones were careful with their questions, worded deliberately and under the promise of facing whatever the future may hold, no matter what answer they were given. It was these people that Anemos liked best, and often spent time in their courts of their own free will and desire.

One such court was that of Ramesses II, later to be known as Ramesses the Great. They came to him early in his reign, already a known oracle in the land, and the pharaoh was quick to extend an invitation to his palace. A bond of mutual respect and friendship was born between the pair, and Anemos stayed in his counsel until the end of his days. They followed him into every one of his Syrian campaigns, and cautioned against waging open war with the Hittites, instead suggesting to form a peace with the other king. And thus the first known peace treaty to exist was drafted, creating a harmony between borders that would last until the end of his reign. Already a great leader in his own right, with Anemos by his side, Ramesses became the greatest known and most widely celebrated pharaoh of all time. When death finally came for him at ninety years of age, Anemos still remained, and saw him through to the next life. It was the first time in their immortal life that Anemos experienced the feelings of grief and loss, an unexpected attachment to mortality that perhaps made them softer to the human species. Unfortunately, not all humans were so deserving.

Indeed, while the wise ones courted the favor of an oneiroi, the greedy ones desired their power for their own use and no one else’s. It was a mistake, a slip of the tongue in the room with the wrong person to hear, where word got out that the talisman Anemos kept was the source of their essence. Staying in Rome at the time, as a guest of the Emperor Septimius Severus, they had been in the area for a while, watching in amusement as the country struggled to regain its footing during the Year of the Five Emperors. They believed themselves to be safe in the Roman court, to wield their influence as they saw fit, and while Septimius held a great respect for the oneiroi’s abilities, his son was not so swayed. Caracalla craved Anemos’s power, saw it as an opportunity for himself to take charge, and sought to control them absolutely. Once he took possession of their talisman, they were bound under his will, forced to carry out his whims. In over a millennium of existence, it was the first true experience of betrayal for the oneiroi, an act that left them filled with rage. 

Though they were incapable of defying the man, that did not mean they were powerless. An angry oneiroi is a dangerous thing, and Anemos was not one to take forced servitude lying down. They began to plant the seeds of doubt and paranoia inside Caracalla’s mind, exacerbated by the death of his father in a military campaign in Caledonia. Forced to share his reign with his brother Geta, he was all too quick to turn to the spirit’s divination for solutions to his problems, which Anemos was happy to provide. This coupled along with every foul idea planted through his head in a dream, Caracalla quickly began a downward spiral into dictatorial behavior. Indeed, it was the spirit who gave him the idea to kill Geta to remove him as an obstacle, along with every single man who supported his brother. A great many people suffered for this, many of them innocent, yet Anemos felt no remorse. If they were trapped and suffering under his thumb, then so should everyone else be as well. 

After the murder of his brother, Caracalla took to the road, never to return to Rome. Though his mother Julia Domna requested for the spirit to stay in the city with her, the emperor refused, and Anemos was forced along with him. And yet it proved to be an unwise decision, for instead of favor, he only brought madness. Each time he pressed upon the oneiroi for knowledge, they would use it to twist his desires, and stroke his cruelty into a man that would become so infamously tyrannical. They encouraged his obsession with becoming the new Alexander the Great, which led to his persecution of Aristotelian philosophers, and also whispered a dream of the massacre and plunder of the city of Alexandria when the citizens mocked him in a satirical play, all the while turning him into someone who the world would not tolerate. When they saw his end at the hands of one of his own soldiers through divination, they pushed him into war with Parthia by presenting it as the only option to escape his fate, but in reality he only sealed it. It was only after that soldier stabbed the emperor to death on the road to Carrhae that Anemos was able to reclaim their talisman, and with it they took off running, never to look back. 

The reality of being forced into servitude for so long shook Anemos, and they became determined to never allow it to happen again. No longer did they exist so openly among mortal men, hiding their talents in fear of losing control of their talisman again. Determined that they would rather die than live through that again, they began to search for a method to ensure it’s security. It was during this time that they finally came into contact with one of their own. Another oneiroi, likewise alone in the world, it had been a bit of a salvation for Anemos. Immediately bonded, the two stuck together like glue for over one hundred years, and fell in love in the time in-between. But fate would not allow them to stay together, as their lover’s tricks came back to haunt them in the form of an aggrieved former lord who had lost everything due to the other oneiroi’s machinations. They were outnumbered with weapons of iron, and though the pair fought back, eventually the man got his hands on their love’s talisman and shattered it to pieces with the swing of a mighty axe. Anemos just barely escaped with their own life, wounded and heartbroken, and went deep into hiding as they mourned for their fallen. 

Nearly a century later, when they emerged from their shell of living, it was with a renewed energy to never let themselves fall victim to their talisman. Though it took time and effort, first to find one strong enough and then to make sure they were trustworthy, eventually Anemos sought the services of a witch to help them. And so the talisman was bound on a chain, and laced around their neck falling halfway to their chest, spelled to never be removed by a forceful hand. The chain is unbreakable, so long as the spell itself stays unbroken, and Anemos has never taken it off in over the five hundred years to follow.

For a while, when the world was still vastly unexplored, it was easy to take the face of others and have none be the wiser. But as the world became more modern, and hiding became more difficult, Anemos began to see the benefit of not only stealing faces, but also lives. They would insert themselves in the social circle of their target, learn what was necessary information to impersonate them, before promptly killing them and taking their entire identity. It’s a system they’ve perfected over the last one hundred years or so, giving them access to things otherwise unobtainable.

The two most recent victims whose lives Anemos has taken up are Grace Tate-Starling and Lincoln Donato. Grace was an Australian socialite, daughter of a former model and a billionaire whose family came from old money. Slipping into her life had been all too easy, and when she disappeared off to a “Greek Vacation” no one even questioned it. Lincoln on the other hand had been a traveling European photographer, not of great renown but considered to be an up-and-comer by the community. A loner in life who had little more than his camera, motorcycle, and website, there’d been hardly a more perfect choice for Anemos to take. With both their new appearances in hand, they made their way to Corinth Bay, to the pull of the veil in search of any others of their kind. For even though they had been burned by their desire for connection before, the feeling of loneliness never truly abated, except for the time when around one of their own species. If they could find any more like themselves, or a way to make more, then perhaps they could finally be happy again.

PERSONALITY

+ convivial, loyal, persevering - vengeful, amoral, shortsighted

PLAYED BY ABBY. CDT. She/Her.