#jon meta

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

When fans think about Jon's tenure as Lord Commander they often let his tragic end to influence their view on him. Because if a leader experience a munity they must have done a lot of things wrong, right? This simplistic view doesn't take into consideration:

a. that the people who betrayed him were bigots who didn't want to adapt to the current situation on the Wall ( aka that the big enemy was the Others and no longer the Free Folk)

b. just because a person doesn't foresee a specific event ( in Jon's case the betrayal of some of his men) that doesn't automatically makes them a bad leader or deletes all the positive reforms they made.

[docpiplup]

#JON SNOW FORTNIGHT EVENT 2023

@asoiafcanonjonsnow

DAY 10: ECHOES OF THE PAST 🗝️📜(2/2) ->

Historical parallels with Medieval bastard Kings.

John I of Portugal

To complete the the previous post of this meta, we're going to dive in the parallels and simmilarities between Jon Snow and John I of Portugal through the following points:

BASTARDY

John I of Portugal also known as John of Avis, was the bastard son of King Peter I of Portugal and Teresa Guille Lourenço, a Galician noblewoman, lady in waiting of Inês de Castro, or according to other sources, the daughter of some Lisbon merchants.

Jon Snow is officially known to be Ned Stark's bastard son, and if we consider R+L=J, he's Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and as far as we know Jon is still a bastard.

PARENT'S TRAGIC LOVE STORY

John I's father, Peter I of Portugal fell in love with Inês, a lady in waiting and cousin of Constanza Manuel de Villena (Peter's wife).

After Constanza died, they became lovers and they had four children and they wed in secret, but some Portuguese nobles and Peter's father, Afonso IV of Portugal, disliked their relationship because the possible influences of Inês' family. They plotted to kill her, Inés was killed by three of those men and it's said that when Peter became king, he put Inês' corpse in a throne next to him so that the people would swear allegiance to her as queen of Portugal and looked for revenge chasing the ones who killed Inês. John I was born a few years after Inês died when Peter I had an affair with Teresa Lourenço.

Jon's parents, Rhaegar and Lyanna met at the Harrenhal Tourney, in which both participated, Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Aerys sent Rhaegar some men to learn the identity of the mystery knight, so it's likely that Rhaegar figure it out and then crowned her as Queen of Love and Beauty when he won the tourney. They fell in love and run away together, Rhaegar died at the Battle of the Trident during Robert's rebellion and Lyanna died after giving birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy.

BROTHER IS THE KING

After Peter I of Portugal died, he was succeeded by his son with Constanza Manuel de Villena, Ferdinand I, and John held a prominent position during the reign of his brother.

Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch when Robb is proclaimed as King in the North and during his brief reign.

Apart from that it would be argued that Aegon VI fits here too because he's Jon's brother, but Young Griff's identity as Aegon VI is doubtful and he hasn't taken control of Westeros yet.

MILITAR EDUCATION AND CAREER

John was educated by Nuno Freire de Andrade, Master of the Order of Christ, and John became Master of the Order of Avís, one of the most important Orders in Portugal during the Middle Ages, from which he will take his last name.

Jon joined the Night's Watch, which can also be considered a militar order in which chastity is also imposed on its members just like the Order of Avis. Jeor Mormont, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch has been one of Jon's mentors, so just like John, Jon had the leader of a militar order as a mentor, and then became the head of a militar order.

RELATIONSHIPS/LOVE INTERESTS

While John formed part of the Order of Avis, despite vows of chastity, John had two bastard children with Inês Pires when he was a teenager, Beatrice and Afonso, 1st Duke of Braganza.

Jon broke his vows by falling in love and being with Ygritte, even though Jon didn't had children with Ygritte, and Jon has also expressed that he didn't want to have them because of the stigma of being a bastard and the classist Westerosi society.

POLITICAL MATCH MAKER

John was one of the negotiators of the successive marriage projects of his niece and the heiress Beatrice of Portugal, who would end up marrying John I of Castile (Henry II of Castile's son), as a way to seal peace after the Fernandine Wars, in which Ferdinand I tried to overthrow Henry II from the Castilian throne, who became king after killing his legitimate brother Peter I of Castile (who was Ferdinand I's cousin), and was supported by one of Peter I's legitimised bastard children, Constance of Castile.

In the agreements established that each one would independently reign their kingdoms and the offspring of both would inherit Portugal, although if Beatrice died without children, the heirs of her husband would inherit Portugal, and John I of Castile has children from a previous marriage to Eleanor of Aragon (this is important detail for later).

Jon has also arranged a wedding of a familiar during his time as head of the militar institucional, as the Karstarks originated as a cadet branch of the Starks, and there have been intermarriages between the two houses, so we could assume Alys and Jon are distant cousins, such as Alys and Sigorn's wedding.

PROBLEMS OF SUCESSION AND INDEPENDENCE OF THEIR KINGDOMS & THEIR RISE TO KINGSHIP

After the death of Ferdinand I, a succession crisis took place in Portugal between Beatrice, who had no offspring, and the children of Peter I of Portugal with Inés de Castro (who were considered bastards by the Portuguese nobility), and also John revolted at end of 1384 with the support of the commonfolk and the bourgeoisie, and promoted a war to maintain the independence of Portugal, adopting the title of defender of the kingdom, which he achieved by defeating Beatrice and John I of Castile, for which he was crowned king of Portugal, being the first king and founder of the House of Avis.

Due to what happened to John with the fight for the independence of Portugal against another family member, it is most likely that in TWOW when Jon arrives in Winterfell the inheritance problem between the Starklings will have to be solved, and with Robb's will and his position as the older brother and being the one with political experience, supported by the Free Folk, the Mountain Clans and some Northern Noble Houses like the recently created House of Thenn, formed by Alys and Sigorn, Jon will be named king in the North breaking relations with the Iron Throne that is under the control of the Lannisters and the North will be (for the moment) independent again. In addition, the matter of Beatrice and her husband John I of Castile reminds me a bit of the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, being Tywin's initial plan to get the North under the rule of the Lannisters, although that did not work and the best method was having the Boltons at Winterfell. Plus both Tyrion and John I of Castile have lions in their sigils, although the Castilian lion is purple (or in some media, red) and the Lannister one is golden.

ALLIANCES, MARRIAGE & OFFSPRING/POSSIBLE MARRIAGE (SPECULATIONS)

Like his brother Ferdinand I, John supported Constance's cause, allying with her against John I of Castile, but they were defeated and Constance did not get the Castilian throne, her daughter Catherine of Lancaster married John I of Castile's son, Henry III, and their son was  John II of Castile, thus uniting the two lines of succession of Alfonso XI of Castile.

As well as Peter I of Castile's two eldest surviving daughters married two of Edward III of England's sons (Constance married John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and Isabella married Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York), John I of Portugal married Philippa of Lancaster, John of Gaunt's eldest daughter with Blanche of Lancaster, and they had a loving marriage and eight children: Blanche, Afonso, Edward I of Portugal, Peter, Henry, Isabella, John and Ferdinand.

Edward was a poet and writer, his more important books were, on good governance,'The Loyal Counselor', 'Book of Councils', 'Response, being princes, to the infant D. Ferdinand about some complaints he had of his father'; on sports and horsemanship, with educational connotations, 'Teaching book about riding well in any saddle' and "Regiment to learn to play weapons'.

It's very likely that Jon will need to make more alliances to stablish his position as King in The North and preparing for the War for the Dawn and fight against the Others, and one way to do it it would be marrying someone with a prominent influence and a big army.

And although Dany hasn't landed on Westeros yet, due to her army and her influence as queen claimant to the Iron Throne, could be a good ally, and Dany would like to help due to her care for people who are needed, so probably Jon and Dany would join forces and eventually they could fall in love, marry and rule Westeros together.

Plus, if Jon ans Dany have children, one of them could be a poet like Edward I or a music composer and a bookworm like Rhaegar.

CUNNING/KNOWLEDGE

Contemporary writers state John that his position as a master of a religious military order made him an exceptionally learned king for the Middle Ages. His love for knowledge and culture was passed down to his children, who are collectively referred to by Portuguese historians as the illustrious generation, for example, Edward I the Eloquent and Peter were considered as two of the most learned princes of their time, and Henry the Sailor invested heavily in science and in the development of nautical activities.

Although Jon is often seen as a warrior, he has shown interest on knowledge and books too and he has been showing competences and skills for being a good leader and he's cunning good at politics and a good administrator, as he has been proving during his time as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

DRAGON IMAGERY

John I of Portugal's sigil has some elements that make me link him with Jon, his emblem has a crest with a dragon, which was usually used in the heraldry of the Portuguese Royal family, in which a dragon appears in the Royal crest or two green dragons as the supports of coat of arms, which makes me think of Rhaegal, a green dragon, who was named after Rhaegar and most likely Jon is its dragonrider.

[winterprince601]

unfortunately for jon snow, the role of "dead girl haunting the narrative" is already occupied by his mother, father, brother, sister, uncle, grandmother and step mother x2 so he's going to have to be forcibly resurrected :/

[spooksier]

relistening to tma and losing my mind more with each episode. anyways. today we're talking about how there are three characters in the show who are meant to be/groomed to be "the chosen one" for some specific purpose (agnes for the lightless flame, gerry to carry on some esoteric bloodline, jon for the watcher's crown/the web's escape plan) and all three of them have that running theme of being completely powerless in every aspect of their lives despite being made to be something powerful. we never get agnes' own perspective on her own life, gerry dies and is kept in limbo for *years*, and jon is marked to be the antichrist from age 8, like all of them were used as tools rather than people and if you couple that with all three at some point expressing that their fantasy is to live a normal life and be a normal person but they were trapped by divinity......fucked up if true

[meanlikeachild]

oh nothing, just thinking about how Robb chose duty over love when he refused to trade Jamie for Sansa and Arya and got killed and how Jon chose love over duty when he was going to desert the night watch to go save his little sister from her abusive husband and he too got killed. Theres just no winning, whatever you chose.

[tell-them-the-north-remembers]

If there is one line I like to over-analyze in the ASoIAF books it is a rather famous thought that goes inside Cat's head before her death. As the steel is close to her throat Cat thinks "No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair." And this line and her entire inner monologue is absolutely heart-breaking but one thing I fixate on is the actual sentence itself.

"Ned loves my hair."

Anyone who has read the books knows that Cat holds contempt for the fact that except for Arya, she has failed to give Ned children who look like him. It is also one of the reasons she dislikes Jon so much, because the mother of Jon (who she assumes to be Ned's bastard son) has managed to give Ned a child that looks just like him while she, his lawfully wedded wife gave birth to five of his children only for four of them to come out looking exactly like her. Red hair, blue eyes. Unlike Jon (and Arya) who share Ned's dark hair and dark eyes.

And knowing that it is so interesting to me that Cat's last thought about Ned (and her last thought ever) was that Ned loves her hair.

Because Ned loved her, he loved her hair, he loved her the way she was. And every time he looked at Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon he saw the reflection of the woman he loved, while Cat was so upset that they weren't all reflections of the man she loved.

Every time Ned ran his fingers through their hair, he ran his fingers through the hair of the woman he loved. He never resented Cat for the fact that four of his children didn't look like him, he loved that they looked like their mother, again, the woman he loved so much. He loved that they had the same hair he loved on Cat, and judging by it being her last thought Cat also knew that Ned loved her hair (and the way she looked), whether she ever came to the realization that Ned was perfectly happy with the way their children looked at all, or if she realized after he was dead and it was too late, it is unclear. But all those years she beat herself up over nothing.

Ned loved her the way she was, Ned loved his children the way they were, when they looked like him and when they didn't. Because when they didn't look like him, they looked like the love of his life, his darling wife.

And if the books decide to go with R+L=J it also adds another layer to Cat and Ned's relationship. Because Jon's mother was always a woman she didn't know but was still competing with in her mind for Ned's love for all these years. Turns out she didn't even exist. Turns out she didn't need to feel inferior to the woman Ned loved enough to not even talk about with her, no need to feel bad about the fact that she was able to give Ned a child that looked like him while Cat "failed".

At the end of the day, all the voices in her head making her feel insecure in her marriage never needed to be there, because everything she thought of as a problem with her were not problems at all for Ned. He was perfectly happy with her and their children.

[bidonicart]

Lyanna Stark and ser Gerold Hightower at the Tower of Joy.

A scenario conceived by @seaworthit, scripted by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly and adapted into a comic by me.

where else to find me

[jeyneofpoole]

at the end of the day i think the reason we’re all so obsessed w jon snow in the books is the inherent comedy of the Chosen One being sent to magical boarding school and just hating every minute of it. he’s not realizing his full magical girl potential he’s just exhausted. mans is TIRED. there’s a literal giant camping out in his front yard and he’s stressing over salt beef. there is an uber hot magical witch actively trying to seduce him and he’s just like ‘omg ygritte had red hair... im going to kms’. he is actively becoming a wolf. like straight up animorphing into his pet dog. and he doesn’t give a shit he’s like ‘hm that’s weird’ and then he gets distracted smelling satins’ hair again. easily the most character of all time. god.

[amber-laughs]

“ned, jon and lyanna’s body all showed up together, why don’t people know?” because that would never happen. there is no possible way that lyanna’s body wouldn’t have decomposed which means she would have to be given to the silent sisters somewhere in Dorne. It’s possible ned could have been given her bones then and there but we know he sent them directly to winterfell. Ned didn’t go straight to winterfell, he went from the tower of joy to starfall then to King’s Landing to make amends with Robert after the blow up about elia and her children. for most certain he did not bring rhaegar’s newborn son to the place where his siblings were just brutally murdered. so what happened to jon? my best guess is that wylla the wetnurse, or whoever was seeing to him, took a boat from starfall (bc grrm made a point of saying they have them) to the north. so ned, jon, and lyanna all show up at varying times probably months to weeks in between and then ned sends for catelyn and robb. it’s not something that really looks suspicious imo

[thermodynamic-comedian]

have u ever considered that jonah magnus spent his life and more chasing divinity with the same desperation that jon rejected it with.

[grahamfolgersdeliciousnotebooks]

Thinking about Jon’s time with the Circus again. Thinking about what a month spent in a refrigerated warehouse would do (because it would have to be refrigerated, wouldn’t it? it’s meant to store waxworks), just how cold his skin would be. Do you think it even still felt like his skin? Do you think his fingers brushed the skin of his arm and felt only the inhuman chill of wax, and his arm received the touch of his hand and felt only the dead press of plastic?

Thinking about how thoroughly his time with the Stranger would have made him a stranger to himself.

[ineffectualbookseller]

The way Azirphale is underestimated and practically infantalized by heaven is so closely tied to his femininity and I think we should talk about it more because I just want to shout about how relatable the way he's treated in his workplace is as a woman working in a traditionally male field

It's in all the little niggling comments from your boss about personal things that hold no bearing on your work

and the assumption that what you're doing must be simple if it was assigned to you

your work is trivialized

and you get these the placating smiles when you're told plans and proposals are rejected and passed over

or when your complaints are dismissed

and you get more of the same from upper management

it all feels so frustrating and draining but you're at work so all you can do is take a breathe put on that mask and move on with your day

It is all so deteimental to your emotional well being and textually, so much of this is tied to Aziraphale's softness, his gayness - his femininity

The thing about working in an environment and gives you this feeling - of being simultaneously destrought watching your belief in yourself get chipped away but also just so irate becuase you know you don't deserve it - is how it builds. It sinks under your skin and feeds into this indignant dejection until you can have a moment of release - but Azirphale doesn't get to bitch about it over drinks with friends, he doesn't get a lunch break where he can go for a walk and listen to an angry scandi death metal playlist, he doesn't even get the chance to cry about it in the bathroom for 5 minutes before confronting it again

(And I talked a little bit about it in the tags of this beautiful photoset but this all comes into play whenever Crowley dismisses his plans or calls him an idiot. These are purely emotional reactions; I really don't think Crowley means much by it - he respects Aziraphale's opinion and genuinely thinks he's brilliant - but Crowley is so quick to use this terminology when Aziraphale is making a decision Crowley thinks is wrong and he doesn't know how much this hurts Aziraphale. Just like Aziraphale doesn't understand the true impact the Fall had on Crowley, Crowley doesn't understand the ways heaven has been tearing away at Aziraphale's self worth)

Aziraphale has been facing this constant drip of denigration since before the beginning of time and has never released the pressure valve. At this point, he's a bomb waiting to go off

[panoptical]

MAG 123:

ARCHIVIST (under his breath) Where did the – (sighs) [SOME SHUFFLING AS HE LOOKS THROUGH PAPERS/WHATEVER’S ON HIS DESK.] (salt) Coma, great! Let’s rearrange his office. Sleeping people don’t need – pens.

MAG 140:

BASIRA But I think – Have you got a pen? ARCHIVIST Uhh – Yeah, i-in the drawer. [BASIRA OPENS THE DRAWER.] BASIRA Ah, John. What’s this? [SHE PICKS SOMETHING UP.] ARCHIVIST Hm? Oh. That’s… I, th, uh – that’s my rib. BASIRA (Pythagorean theorem, volume of a cone) Right. [SHE PUTS IT BACK.] ARCHIVIST Yep. BASIRA And… the jar of ashes. ARCHIVIST (stress.exe) Not – not, m,mine – I mean, it belongs to me, I, I, I guess, but it’s not – stationery is in the, uh, other drawer.

The implication of these two scenes is:

Jon got some pens after MAG 123 and put them in his desk drawer. Alright.

He uses a separate discrete drawer for storing both Prentiss' ashes and his own rib, which contains no stationary.

The use of "other drawer" implies these are either the only or the biggest drawers in the desk.

Conclusion: Jon has two drawers in his office desk that are organized by either "office supplies" or "human remains".

[winterprince601]

"he was never unfaithful to robert, was he?" - jaime, acok

ha. ha ha ha. the irony of this line is incredible. what's so striking to me is how one dimensional the realm's understanding of eddard stark as an honourable man is - honour itself is an incredibly complicated and unattainable ideal in asoiaf and i think ned as the stereotypical emblem of it encompasses many of the reasons why. because whilst he absolutely does consider acting in a conventionally honourable way important, he always prioritises those he loves. he defended cat's actions as his own without a second thought when she arrested tyrion. his main priority in king's landing is to see his daughters safe, not to secure the succession. lyanna is the prime example: jon's existence is not the result of the lapse of honourable ned stark, it was honourable ned stark choosing his love for his sister over his duty to his king. that and his personal ethical belief that the political murder of a child is never morally acceptable.

no one in the realm has the insight into his personality we get in the first book. none of his children, vitally, understand that he would always prioritise their safety over any honourable scruples. all of the starklings question what their honourable father would think of their actions - killing in self-defence, marrying jeyne westerling, sleeping with ygritte to name a few examples - without recognising that ned's true first priority was always his family's safety.

in fact, he betrayed robert far more than he ever betrayed cat and he would have betrayed honour for his family's safety every time.

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

"You know nothing, Jon Snow" isn't a phrase that should determine Jon's cleverness or indicate he's among the most ignorant characters.

Context is always important. When Ygritte told him this quote for the first time, he was a teen boy raised and educated in westerosi society- a society with strong prejudice against the Free Folk. So, he was as clueless about them as all the other westerosi people ( other pov characters are all included).

What truly matters is that Jon didn't remain stuck in his bias but actually observed and listened to Free Folk's perspective on things. Unlike what he was taught - that those people were savages - he came see them as fellow human beings who deserved the same protection westerosi people had ( aka the Wall protecting them from Others). Some of the people he truly admires and respects are among the Free Folk.

I know there is a notion in this fandom that Starks' views remain unchanged but Jon is a very adaptive character. He always listens different perspectives and has no problem to change his former views if he realises they were wrong. He's far from the " know nothing" stereotype of someone who is ignorant about the world and willfully continues to be so.

A quote I believe that highlights the type of person Jon is and actually has links to the original "Know nothing" Ygritte quote is this one below:

They know nothing, Ygritte. And worse, they will not learn.

[devine-fem]

Jon doesn’t exactly perceive the things that Damian does and chooses to ignore it. He feels responsible for it and we should explore that.

He feels for Damian to the extent that he actively wants to carry that weight with him so Damian doesn’t have to bare it on his own. Time and time again, Jon has refused to let Damian go through stress and decline by himself. Whether or not you Damian wants him there, he will be there because he thinks that’s what they both deserve.

I don’t know if this exists in other Bat and Super dynamics but Jon wants to be good for Damian as Damian wants to be good for Jon.

That must be so uncomfortable to know, that there is someone that loves being alone with your sorrow more than you could ever enjoy to be alone with your happiness.

Like if you bite the hand then I’ll still feed you instead. He thinks he’s so invulnerable, so strong and persistent that he can share all burden with Damian. Jon, you’ll go down for this boy and that boy would bring anyone down for you and it makes me wanna vomit my guts out.

You can’t take the hurt for him.