#just to be clear: it’s not that i dislike the sindar

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Hc that the sindars of doriath very much have a “out of sight, out of mind” “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” mentality, which lead to a lot of corruption and crime going unchecked.

I mean, with the way Doriath practically hid behind melian’s barrier, it’s almost canon.

Of course, this is also an au where melian is abusive, and the “hear no evil, speak no evil” thing is just a result of the sindars trying to survive while under the control of a dictator, where being thrown out of the barrier wasn’t much safer, which lead to the sindar not speaking on and communicating about any and all instances of corruption and crime due to self preservation.

And as a result, many elves even in the third age do not realize just how bad doriath had become bc the elves that lived there resolutely refused to speak on/acknowledge it due to habit.

[sotwk]

Got any headcanon about how Oropher gave Thranduil his blessing to marry the future queen of Mirkwood?

Hi Nessa!

In my SotWK AU, Oropher and Thranduil had a somewhat challenging relationship. Oropher was a good father and Thranduil was a dutiful son (for the most part), but they had opposing personalities, and as a result, they clashed often. And I love Thranduil, but I would have to say he was a *bit* too much of a rebel in his Elven youth, and his dad was just trying his best at single parenting while setting up and running a fledging kingdom.

SotWK AU Headcanon: About Oropher and Thranduil

While the father and son disagreed over many things, the only thing that actually caused a temporary yet lengthy estrangement between them was Thranduil's choice of wife. This happens in the SotWK AU because that choice of wife happened to be a Noldor of Fëanorian descent: Lady Maereth, the granddaughter of Maglor.

Oropher dislikes, perhaps even hates, the Noldor, and definitely with good reason. His wife was killed in the (Second) Sacking of Doriath, so when Oropher screamed, "have you lost your *bleeping* mind??" when Thranduil said he wished to propose marriage to Maereth, he was well within his rights. Okay, Oropher might not have said it in those exact words, but it was quite a dramatic scene.

And it's true--it's an insane thought! The Sons of Fëanor caused Lady Meluiel's (oc, Thranduil's mother) death and Thranduil wants to marry the granddaughter of one of them?!

So. Blessing to marry the Elvenqueen? Did not come for a very, very long time. Like, about 1,400 years from first time Thranduil asked for the blessing, to the time Oropher finally gave it. (And their estrangement lasted that long.)

What finally changed Oropher's mind? The same thing that allowed Thranduil to fall in love with someone whose parentage should have prevented him from doing so: he gave her a chance. After spending enough time with her, Oropher got to know Maereth for her own self, not for who her grandfather was. (Meanwhile, her parents were actually really good people.) And what Maereth was, was a wise, kind-hearted, gentle lady whose love inspired Thranduil to be a better prince and future king.

Finally, when it became clear that Thranduil was not going to change his mind about pursuing Maereth, Oropher decided to support his son's controversial choice instead of fighting him over it. But there remained the bigger obstacle of getting the King's Council, the other powerful nobles of the realm, to accept a Noldor as future Queen.

Oropher had a keen political mind, and he knew that if Thranduil were to inherit the throne one day, he needed as much support and goodwill from the other lords (many of them Sindar who came from Doriath) of the realm as possible. Prince Thranduil of the Second Age was brash and hasty and not as politically savvy as his father, and so Oropher needed to guide him at this stage to prevent the fallout from taking Maereth as the Crown Princess.

Before Oropher finally gave Thranduil his blessing to marry Maereth (fun fact, Thranduil had already asked Maereth twice without waiting to be blessed--but she turned him down, and Oropher's opposition was a big reason why), he persuaded his son to accept certain terms negotiated by the King's Council. These terms (mentioned in my fic, "The Crown") set explicit limits on the powers that Maereth might have as the future Queen of the realm. Thranduil was certainly not pleased by this, but Oropher managed to convince him to make the compromise, advising him that Maereth could later win the people to her side and force a change to those terms.

Ultimately, Oropher would be proven right. Upon his father's death, Thranduil grieves that he may not have appreciated him more. It becomes clear that the stern and stoic Oropher always looked out for and protected his son in less obvious ways, and did everything out of a desire to see Thranduil safe and happy.

SotWK Fancast: Jason Isaacs as Oropher

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[armenelols]

The first time I read The Lord of the Rings, I remember thinking 'why is everything so grey?' There was the Grey Company in their grey cloaks, Elrond in his grey mantle and Arwen in her grey dress; grey eyes, silver eyes, symbolism with night and evening and stars. Silver and grey were the colours appearing consistently though the trilogy, most often with the elves and Dúnedain.

So I wondered... Why?

I have said it before and I am saying it again - I am not a big fan of Elrond calling himself a fëanorian, nor am I a fan of him being considered a Noldo.

He is half-elven. It's referred to so often it is impossible to miss. He is called kin of both Elves and Men, and he associates with both.

But if we have to speak of Elrond strictly as of an elf, I do not think Noldor are the way to go.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, chapter Problem of Ros, we can find this passage:

The names Elros and Elrond that Elwing gave to her sons were held prophetic, as many mother-names among the Eldar. For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave Elros and Elrond a choice to belong either to the kin of the Eldar or to the king of Men, it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Númenor following the star of Eärendil; whereas Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwë.

Note 19

And also that of Turgon; though he preferred that of Elwë, who was not under the ban that was laid on the Exiles.

It is said Elrond himself preferred his status as the heir of Elwë over Turgon - and while yes, this book isn't exactly full-canon and was posted after Tolkien's death, there are just enough quotes in LotR itself to prove which side of his heritage Elrond preferred.

'... Eärendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien of Doriath...'

- FotR

Elrond names Eärendil as his father, yes, but that's it - while with Elwing, he names half of his family tree.

More than that, there are the connections of Elrond and his family to the colour gey - the colour of Sindar, Grey-elves, and their king Elu Thingol.

Almost every time a member of the House of Elrond appears, they are wearing grey or are described in relation to the evening, stars, night.

And while stars are associated with all elves, the combination of all those elements is most common with - you guessed it - Sindar.

[of Elrond] His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars.

-FotR

[of Arwen] ... and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring. Above her brow her head was covered with a cap of silver lace netted with small gems, glittering white; but her soft grey raiment had no ornament save a girdle of leaves wrought in silver.

- FotR

[of Elladan and Elrohir] ...two tall men, neither young nor old. So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart; dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver-grey.

- RotK

Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three.

- RotK

There are more connections - Elladan and Elrohir bearing a silver banner, the above mentioned Grey Company who are known friends of the House of Elrond, as well as descendants of Númenor, and others.

In Problem of Ros, we also have this bit:

Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwë in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called Menelrond, because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof has been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of Valar in Aman, whence Melian came.

More connection to stars, to Menegroth, to Elwing, to Thingol.

And of course, of Thingol himself:

... Elu Thingol he was called, King Greymantle, in the tongue of his people. They are called the Sindar, Grey-elves, of starlit Beleriand; and although they were Moriquendi, under the lordship of Thingol and the teaching of Melian they became the fairest and the most wise and skillful of all the Elves of Middle-earth.

- The Silmarillion

Greymantle. Grey-elves. Starlit Beleriand. Constant references of Thingol and Sindar being connected to the colour grey, stars. Another interesting thing people seem to forget is that Sindar were wise and skilled and not lesser than Noldor, just different - and even than not much as Noldor and Teleri were told to be alike. Daeron constructed Cirth and was a bard of great renown; Lúthien was... Lúthien, which I don't think needs an elaboration; Mablung and Beleg were respected outside of Doriath; Celeborn, called the Wise; Thranduil, a Sinda who would not fight a war over gold (which is always a smart decision); Elwing who was brave and did the best she could (and before anyone goes at me about Elwing, I recommend this post and reading the notes on it).

Outside of them, it is the House of Elrond and Dúnedain who gets connected to the colour grey the most. I don't think it is a stretch to say that of his elven ancestry, he prefers the heritage from his mother.

In the end I see him as a Sinda-Númenorean who has just enough eldtrichness to show he is a descendant of Melian - and maybe a bit more of it when needed. However, he respects all sides of his heritage - and despite me saying he doesn't see himself as a Noldo, he doesn't have any problem with Noldor, nor does he ignore or dislikes that side of his heritage. He is proud of it and bears many Noldorin traits. He taught his children to be the same. It just isn't the most prominent part of him.

I think his tendency to stand in the background rather than lead himself is also a trait more of Sindar than Noldor, for... Obvious reasons. Most of the Noldor in the First Age fought a battle after a battle, rushed into reckless valiant acts. But if we see Sindar in battle, it's most often because they were attacked first; as a last resort; unexpected kicking ass in Lúthien style; because they see no better option.

And in the end, grey is not exactly a distinctive colour - it tends to fade into the background, but is no less than important.

Just like Elrond. Just like Sindar.

[fuckingfinwions]

What do you think of High King Gil Galad (son of Fingon or not) taking Celebrimbor as a sex slave?

Oh I like this! There's so many times it would be interesting - in the late first age, in the centuries before Ost-in-Edhil was founded, anytime after it's revealed that Annatar is Sauron...

Let's go with the first age. In Nargothrond, Orodreth made it clear that his people were not to blame Celebrimbor for his uncle's actions in the city, which were, after all, mostly not criminal.

Celebrimbor manages to survive the fall of Nargothrond, and flee to Sirion. Crown Prince Gil-Galad has just come of age on Balar.

Then the survivors arrive from Doriath. Celebrimbor stops leaving his house at night.

The refugees from Gondolin arrive. Gil-Galad is crowned king. Celebrimbor attends the ceremony, as a sort of kinsman (between Maedhros's surrender of the crown and Celebrimbor's own disavowal he's unsure if he still counts), and just to get away from Sindar with a grudge.

The new king notices Celebrimbor in the crowd. His beauty, but also his nervousness. Celebrimbor never stand close enough for anyone to touch him, but always makes sure to be within eye sight of at least two people. He carries no sword (can you imagine the insult - a Feanorian with a sword after Doriath?), and wears no emblem, but still walks in the palace as if he belongs there.

Gil-Galad makes a suggestion. "Live with me and warm my bed. I'll let you warm the forges as well, and no one would dare harm you against my will."

Celebrimbor thinks on it. He assumes he'll be allowed to leave, if the king and he dislike each other with prolonged exposure They're not so close of kin for it to be forbidden. If he refuses and stays on Balar, Gil-Galad might see it as a taunt. If he refuses and returns to Sirion, he fears for his safety.

Celebrimbor knows that his family would hate him doing his. His grandfather and father in particular, would say he is of nobler birth than the supposed king; and with the light of the Trees in his eyes, he has seen farther than this child of the daylight. It's degrading and

But Celebrimbor is already going against his family. Playing mistress to a king barely out of his teens would not be Celebrimbor's first choice of life paths, but it beats dying.

The first few weeks or months, Gil-Galad is incredibly curious and rather insatiable. He never dated or "physically explored" with someone else - there aren't many other elves his age and the oncoming crown kept distant the few there were. Celebrimbor isn't married, but he's had a few lovers, and listened to his share of bawdy songs. He is good at several fun ways to have sex, and knows of a few more that just need some experimentation to put into practice.

Gil-Galad tries every one of them. He likes it best when Celebrimbor rides him, arms muscled from forge work holding Celebrimbor up, all that lovely strength on display and devoted to Gil-Galad alone. But he also enjoys Celebrimbor's hands working to the king's pleasure, or his mouth. Gil-Galad also enjoys touching Celebrimbor in return, learning all the ways to overwhelm a body with bliss.

Celebrimbor does get his forge time, too. Gil-Galad is king, and can't devote his entire day to fucking him, much to Gil-Galad's disappointment. The first time Gil-Galad ask Celebrimbor to make a necklace, he does so without a second thought. He likes making jewelry, and it's an honor for the king to wish to wear his work. Gil-Galad asks him to make more pieces, and to wear them, and still it's engaging work.

Gil-Galad's idea for a new piercing is surprising, but Celebrimbor is a Noldo through and through. His body exists purely to to serve and display his Craft. A jewel in the tip of his cock is just another way to do this. Celebrimbor tries a pearl at first, so it looks like he just came.

Then he gets elaborate. A spiral around the outside of his cock. A delicate golden net that shimmers across his whole body, kept from twisting by the piercings in his cock and nipples. A gleaming dragon across his taint, it's jaws stretched wide as it devours him from the tip halfway up his shaft; anchored at the piercing, and with a belt that looks like storm clouds, and with it's tail in his ass.

Gil-Galad is delighted by every new adornment Celebrimbor creates. Celebrimbor knows that it's not really about the beauty of his work so much as his body and the king's lust, but it will do. In Sirion, he had made bracelets only to hammer them flat before anyone could see, as all feared what Feanorian jewelry could cause.

It's over a decade before Celebrimbor tries to leave the palace, and is escorted back indoors by a guard.

There's really nothing Celebrimbor can do to stop the king, short of becoming a Kinslayer like the rest of his family.

At least, not for another decade, when Gil-Galad is suddenly called away to deal with his uncles' latest atrocity.

[warrioreowynofrohan]

The Silmarillion as a TV/Netflix Show (Part 4)

Season 4 covers a much shorter time period than any of the others, being the end of the Bragollach, the Lay of Leithian, and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, with the Leithian forming very much the core of it.

A TV series isn’t the ideal medium for the Tale of Beren and Lúthien. I would absolutely love to see it as a ballet, given the significance of dance to Lúthien’s magic; the combination of dance, music, costuming, and scenery would be phenomenal. A stage musical (which has already been done at least once, in the form of Finrod! A Rock Opera), a traditional opera (as suggested by @okionlywanttoreadforever) or even an animated musical (because no one ruins absolutely everything in his vicinity like Celegorm!) would also all be modes well-suited to the absolute centrality of music in the story.

I ‘d also really like to see The Leithian Script performed as a stage play - no adaptation needed! - but it would probably be about twelve hours long...

Still, the medium of a TV show still does allow for an exceptional musical score and some incredibly impressive visual effects to highlight the different locations. This is the first the the show spends any amount of time on the interior of Angband, and it needs to be deeply unsettling. Tol-in-Gaurghoth is disturbing as well, but in the different, more Minas-Morgul syle of a place that was once beautiful and has now been corrupted; it used to be the Elven tower of Tol Sirion. (Also, a Minas Morgul feel would obviously be on-brand for Sauron.) This contrasts sharply with the beauty of Doriath and Nargothrond.

Episode 1 shows the later evens of the Dagor Bragollach, since the last season ended with the Fall of Fingolfin. This includes: 1) the rescue of Finrod by Barahir and his men, and Finrod’s oath; putting it in this season connects it very directly to the events of the Leithian. 2) The fall of Tol Sirion to Sauron. 3) The attack on Brethil, the rescue of the Haladin by Beleg (showing that Doriath is neither entirely isolationist nor entirely hostile to Men), and Huor and Húrin being rescued by the Eagles and brought to Gondolin. The death of Aredhel quite recently in the series (episode 9 of the last season) gives Maeglin additional reason to hate them - Turgon’s his family (practically his only family, now), he shouldn’t be acting like a parent to these two human strangers!

Episode 2 focuses on the guerilla war of Barahir’s men against the forces of Morgoth, during the time when Dorthonion is darkening into Taur-nu-Fuin. It includes the destruction of the group, Beren’s subsequent solo guerilla war, and his eventual escape through Nan Dungortheb into Doriath.

The episode focus is mainly on Beren, but it also includes the return of Huor and Húrin, as well as the arrival of Celegorm, Curufin and their forces at Nargothrond.

Episode 3 is the meeting of Beren and Lúthien. It gives them some time to get to know each other, so it’s clear to the audience that this isn’t just love at first sight (though it definitely is that) - there’s a real meeting of minds and hearts here. One of the points that Philosopher at Large draws out in the Leithian Script is that Beren is, in his later days as a guerilla, extremely closely connected to nature in a way that recalls the Laiquendi (the elves of Ossiriand who dislike Men for being ‘hewers of trees and hunters of beasts’): he doesn’t hunt, and the animals know him and aid him. And the Sindar, who have lived in Beleriand longer than anyone, would also have a deep attachment to their land.

Their relationship doesn’t need to take up the entire episode, so this is probably also a good time to show the arrival of Bór and Uldor’s people, and the Fëanorians making alliances with them.

The end of the episode is Lúthien introducing Beren to her parents and Beren accepting the Quest of the Silmaril.

Episode 4: The first of two episodes focusing on events around Nargothrond: this one covers everything from Beren’s arrival to the Duel of Felagund and Sauron, as well as Lúthien learning of their capture and being imprisoned in Hirilorn by Thingol.

The Duel of Felagund and Sauron should be sung, and should be backed up with visual effects - elven-song has the ability to make visions apoear in the minds of listeners (and one assumes Maia can do the same), making it a visual as well as auditory duel.

Sauron here, in my opinion, should not look like Annatar. He’s deliberately going for an atmosphere of terror and despair with the Lord-of-Wolves style, and his appearance should back it up.

One of the challenging things to communicate to the audience here is why Sauron doesn’t recognize Finrod after capturing him. The number of blond Noldor is pretty low; the number with the power to take on Sauron is even lower; and based on his initial questioning in the poetic Leithian, he already knows that Celegorm’s taken control of Nargothrond. And his captives have already shown that they’re touchy about Nargothrond, indicating that they’re from there. The identity of his captive should be very, very obvious. The Silmarillion says that “though their kinds were revealed, Sauron could not discover their names or their purposes”, and the poetic Leithian says thus is due to “the spells of Felagund”. I think the easiest way to convey this ida visually is to have Sauron’s victory in the duel result in them being revealed as elves (and one Man), but as generic elves, not in their own usual appearance, with the magic that conceals their identities remaining.

Episode 5: Second part focusing on events in Nargothrond. Lúthien escapes from Doriath, meets Celegorm and Curufin (whom she does not recognize - in the poetic Leithian they do not give her their real names) and goes with them to Nargothrond, is imprisoned by them and escapes with the aid of Huan. Finrod kills a werewolf bare-handed (naked, in fact, though we’re not getting away with that unless this is on HBO) to save Beren, and is himself slain. Lúthien and Huan defeat Sauron, rescue Beren, destroy Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and bury Finrod on the island of Tol Sirion.

Celegorm and Curufin should look and feel rather - off - in thus episode, and increasingly more so in all episodes after it. They’re displaying deeply un-elf-like behaviour, to a greater extent even than Kinslaying. Celebrimbor should be deeply unconfortable; the best explanation I can think of for why neither he nor others in Nargothrond do anything to help Lúthien is that she’s made it clear that if she gets out she’s going to Tol-in-Gaurhoth, and even the elves who are very unhappy with the situation (and/or have the sense to realize this will produce war with Doriath) think “prisoner of Celegorm and Curufin” is a slightly better situation for Lúthien than “prisoner of Sauron”. None of them think that rescue, of Finrod or the others, is even remotely possible.

Episode 6: Beren and Lúthien spend time together as Beren heals and argue about what to do next (Beren thinks Lúthien should go back to Doriath and he should go to Angband despite having nothing resembling a plan; Lúthien, more pragmatic, thinks they should elope - and is quite fine with the idea of never returning to Doriath again, given the whole locking-her-up-while-her-true-love-is-eaten-by-wolves attempt). Celegorm and Curufin are booted out of Nargothrond and attack the lovers; Beren kicks Curufin’s ass, sends them packing, and throws himself in front of an arrow for Lúthien when Curufin attempts to murder her. Huan defects permanently. Lúthien heals Beren, he attempts to sneak off but she finds him, and Huan gives them a plan for sneaking into Angband because the dog is easily the smartest person in this story.

Episode 7: The Quest. The is really the only episode in the series where we spend a significant amount of time in Angband, and it should look incredibly creepy and be the kind of place that gets inside your head. Lúthien’s song and the defeat of Morgoth is the bravura moment of the episode.

Carcharoth should be terrifyingly massive - as in, larger than a Kodiak bear. (Incidentally, I really love that Beren makes essentially no contribution to the fulfillment of his own Engagement Quest aside from losing the freaking jewel down a wolf’s gullet. The success of the Quest is all Lúthien. I also love that the way she she puts Carcharoth to sleep at the beginning of the episode isn’t just about power, but about pity. She’s looking at this horrifying monster, and she defeats him by giving him a moment of peace and rest. Oh woe-begotten creature, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life. That one moment says so much about Lúthien.)

The Quest doesn’t take up the entire episode. There’s also enough time for 1) Celegorm and Curufin arriving at Himring. This moment is the top one not depicted in canon material that I most want to see. C&C have screwed everything up so very badly. What do you even focus on? The fact that everything they did is horrifically immoral? The fact that it’s strategically and tactically idiotic and they’ve managed to alienate the two largest elf-kingdoms in Beleriand? The fact that Finrod, who was Maedhros’ friend, is now dead?

This episode also contains Thingol sending messengers to Maedhros to tell him to account for his brothers’ actions, but the messengers being eaten by Carcharoth.

Episode 8: The Hunting of the Wolf, the death of Beten and Lúthien, Lúthien in the Halls of Mandos, and their return from the dead. I really think their death and return has to happen in the same episode; no one else comes back from the dead in the Silm, so if you use it as the cliffhanger for an episode break, it just feels contrived.

I honestly have very little idea of how to depict the Halls.

Episode 9: Preparations for the Fifth Battle. There are two major motives underlying Maedhros’ choice to go on the offensive: 1) Morgoth is more vulnernable than we thought and maybe we can actually win this war and 2) if we’re attacking Angband, we’re not attacking Doriath. The Oath is well and truly in play again, but the Fëanorians still have a choice of who to target.

Episode 10: Nirnaeth Arneodiad. This is your chance to really screw with the audience, GRRM-style. The narrative has momentum - Morgoth lost a Silmaril! the lovers have been reunited! things are looking up! It’s the right moment, narratively speaking, for a heroic victory. There are warning signs for the future, absolutely, but the audience should be suspecting that the Elves and Men will defeat Morgoth but then spend the next season in conflict with each other over the Silmaril - not that they will lose horribly and then spend the next season fighting each other over the Silmaril.

This is the Silmarillion’s equivalent of the Red Wedding. If Twitter crashes due to overuse at least once during the broadcasting of the episode, you’ve done it right.

And, at the end of the episode, you give the audience a glimmer of hope by showing them the birth of a new generation.

Baby Tuor.

Baby Dior.

Túrin and baby Nienor.

Just so that the next season can brutally crush those hopes.

[absynthe--minded]

(1/2) I've looked through LOTR Appendix B for anything contradicting UTs account of the Silvan population and movements and I can't find anything. I also don't see in the Appx. B when Galadriel came to rule Lorien? Can you help me out please? Also, for a non-UT source for how Sindarin displaced Silvan, Appx F 'Of Elves,' note#1

(2/2) ALSO ALSO, totally agree with you that the Sindar are not the 'less problematic elves uwu' that the fandom generally treats them to be! When I rb'd the other version, grouping the Sindar and Noldor together, I interpreted it as "groups who speak primarily sindarin," and not as "both of them are equally to blame" which is my bad, you're right to be upset about that.

(3/3) ALSO ALSO ALSO, we can agree that Galadriel did not have a son or found lothlorien

So I can totally 100% cop to the fact that I was Heated when discussing Sindarin/Silvan relations, and there are a lot of reasons for that. I promise I wasn’t really angry, just very enthusiastic, lol

It mostly comes down to the fact that I dislike the tendency to treat the Sindar as less bad than the Noldor when I headcanon them both as equally bad in different ways. I also dislike the argument that the Noldor had a hand in the colonization of Lothlórien/that Galadriel was an active colonizer of the silvan elves and this is undisputed Canon. To me, a more accurate explanation is that in a pretty pivotal draft of the story, she was the one who founded it and was thusly responsible for the decline of Silvan culture/language but that this is explicitly counter to the account in The Tale of Years that Tolkien himself approved of and sent to the publisher. (I’ve seen this idea floating around fandom without the additional information that clarifies that more than one version exists, and it’s often used to contrast her against Oropher, The Good Guy, who totally didn’t do anything bad ever in his life. This is frankly one of my biggest pet peeves, as Oropher’s occupation of Greenwood and establishment of himself as King and subsequent treatment of the silvan elves in the Last Alliance bothers me way more than any other action taken against the silvan elves in the entirety of the Legendarium. But that’s my personal opinion and of course others have different takes on the text.)

The problem I have with Unfinished Tales and specifically The History of Galadriel and Celeborn is that since its explanations of who founded Lothlórien, and when, and why, are all incorrect when compared to LotR, that renders basically everything dealing with Lothlórien in this section to be... well, Fraught. How can we say for certain that the accounts it gives are completely accurate, etc.? Of Elves is a much better source imo, since again it comes back to “well Tolkien himself sent this to the publisher”, and I hadn’t read it recently enough to be sure of what it discussed so thank you for clarifying!

For me, it’s less of a dispute that these things happened, because they did and they do constitute canonical imperialism of some kind, and more that I get annoyed with the assumption that the Noldor had to be involved. By the Second Age, and especially by the time that Silvan displacement was well underway, the Noldor really weren’t present enough in regional politics for this to be connected to them. Ost-in-Edhil as a cultural center and Lindon as a capital are pretty removed from Lothlórien (and OiE had pretty clear aims that were distinct from any sort of ambition to rule and expand) and extremely removed from Greenwood, and neither of those realms aimed to be particularly inclusive of the Noldor other than Galadriel. The question of her ethnicity and identity is frustrating because I think that she definitely did assimilate and it was to a degree that led her to reject her family names and perhaps claim ‘Galadriel’ as a cilmessë? But that’s a matter of debate for another post.

Anyway thank you for your response! I hope this makes some degree of sense.

[russingon]

“MIGHTY AMONG THE PRINCES OF THE NOLDOR”:  REDEEMING MAEGLIN LOMION

the more i contemplate it, the more i feel that maeglin is actually as much a victim as anyone is in the silmarillion and that, in the tragedy of gondolin’s fall, he was the chosen scapegoat. despite the title, this isn’t an essay, but i’ve compiled information on this topic below the cut for me and anyone else interested in this argument. what exactly the canon tells us and what, i think, can be easily extrapolated from it. here’s a very, very long sort of master-post to put it all down in one place!

(note: this is based only upon the contents of the published silmarillion and not the fall of gondolin)

(tw: inexplicit discussions of eöl’s canon mistreatment of his wife and son, the sketchy nature of aredhel and eöl’s marriage, inexplicit mention of canon torture)

WHAT DOES CANON SAY ABOUT MAEGLIN? THINGS TO CONSIDER:

1. maeglin was mistreated by his father long before arriving in gondolin. as is the habit of the silmarillion, we often only see small scenes and the rest is left implied, but there’s enough in the canonical text to tell us this. i don’t think it’s a stretch to say he’s an abuser. when maeglin dreams of leaving his father’s home and finding a way to gondolin and to see the sons of fëanor, the following unfolds:

 “but when he [maeglin] declared his purpose to eöl, his father was wrathful. ‘you are of the house of eöl, maeglin, my son,’ he said ‘and not of the golodhrim. all this land is the land of the teleri, and i will not deal nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin, the invaders and usurpers of our homes. in this you shall obey me, or i will set you in bonds’”

here eöl not only says pretty awful things about half of maeglin’s heritage, which, while anti-noldor sentiment might be understandable because of the kinslaying, are cruel to a half-noldo boy, but also threatens physical harm against his son. maeglin, to be clear, is at the oldest possible maybe seventy or eighty when this happens but likely younger. elves come of age between fifty and one hundred, so maeglin is canonically a boy or barely of age when this happens. this is the most direct instance of eöl’s ill treatment of him, but there are some other details of interest. maeglin’s response to the above is not to argue, but simply to grow silent and mistrust his father. aredhel (and thus presumably maeglin) “at eöl’s command must shun the sunlight” which speaks to a kind of commanding rule over them, that they are not allowed to go outside during the day. eöl gives his son no name until he is twelve years old and maeglin, quote, “loved his mother better”.

2. then comes the actual flight to gondolin. maeglin and aredhel are fleeing, largely to get away from eöl. they leave while they think he is away, they give only half true directions about where they’re going to servants (they say they’re seeking out celegorm and curufin, when they really seek gondolin). the text actually says that while eöl was gone maeglin and aredhel were “free for a while to go where they wished” further implying eöl’s autocratic rule over them. maeglin actually says to aredhel:

 “what hope is there in this wood for you or for me? here we are held in bondage”

when aredhel discovers eöl has followed them to gondolin she says: 

“alas! eöl has followed us, even as I feared”

thus further showing that maeglin and his mother are trying to get away from eöl specifically and not just seeking out gondolin on a whim. then, of course, eöl chooses to die in gondolin and to kill maeglin and calls him “what is mine” like a possession. as we know, he kills aredhel instead as she leaps to save her son. maeglin then watches as his father is executed for the crime. eöl curses his son as he falls, all but calling him a bastard (“ill-gotten son”) and telling him all his hopes will fail and he’ll die. maeglin has just seen his mother murdered by his father in front of him and his father then executed, cursing him all the way.

3. maeglin is so young. maeglin is just eighty years old at this point. again, he is barely of age. he is a child compared to any other elves present. in fact, it is important to remember that even at the fall of gondolin, maeglin is just 190. that is incredibly young compared to pretty much any elf even mentioned save the peredhil, whom we’re lead to believe come to maturity faster than standard elves.

4. there isn’t reason to believe maeglin behaves badly to idril in his youth. as it is described in the silmarillion, we’re led to imagine maeglin as this jealous watcher who violently covets idril, but as far as the silmarillion is concerned we don’t know that he ever actually does much of anything, other than bear the fact he has an unrequited love for her in silence, knowing that idril doesn’t feel that way. it’s also important to remember that even in the last years of maeglin’s life, idril is at the very least twice his age but potentially more. i cannot stress enough that maeglin is all but a boy. up until he is taken into angband, there is nothing to suggest maeglin is an aggressor. 

5. maeglin is a great and noble lord, especially for one so young: 

“but maeglin prospered and grew great among the gondolindrim, praised by all, and high in the favor of turgon; ... wise in counsel was maeglin and wary, yet hardy and valiant at need. and that was seen in after days: for when in the dread year of the nirnaeth arnoediad turgon opened his leaguer and marched forth to the help of fingon in the north, maeglin would not remain in gondolin as regent of the king, but went to war and fought beside turgon, and proved fell and fearless in battle ... maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the noldor, and greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms.”

6. he is supposedly turned to morgoth’s side while in angband. maeglin was taken as a captive to angband, where “the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit” (do with that what you will) and he gives up gondolin’s location in exchange for being king of gondolin and having idril, supposedly. i question this, which will be discussed further down the post. we know the rest where canon is concerned, folks. maeglin returns, doesn’t warn people that gondolin is doomed, “lays hands upon” idril and eärendil during the fall and is killed by tuor.

SPECULATION/HEADCANON TO CONSIDER:

a number of aspects of this canon narrative don’t quite add up.

1. as shown above, maeglin, when given the opportunity to be regent of gondolin turns it down to fight by turgon’s side. that’s strange coming from a man who supposedly sells out to be leader of gondolin. furthermore,  the whole deal with morgoth doesn’t seem to make sense. morgoth promises maeglin the possession of idril, but, given his background, maeglin would know that’s never going to work. morgoth also promises maeglin “lordship of gondolin as his vassal”. beyond the fact that it doesn’t seem maeglin would actually want that, what would maeglin actually be lord of? in order for the city to be taken it would have to fall and likely be utterly destroyed and it’s warriors slaughtered. even if somehow some elves lived to be lorded over by maeglin as morgoth’s vassal in a ruined gondolin, they would hate him. maeglin is called wise in the text, he would know all this. why would maeglin, who lost everything to be free of the darkness in nan elmoth, willingly choose to rule over a land that would be swathed in morgoth’s darkness?

2. as i said, maeglin, above almost all other elves on arda, would know that a marriage in which the elleth was “not wholly willing” or “stolen” as was said of his mother could never be right. he lived with his mother and father and saw what that did and risked everything to escape. it doesn’t, in my eyes, make sense that he would seek to have that, even if we take for canon that he has this languishing desire and love for idril. given that so little is said of him actually falling in love with her or doing anything, just that he does love her, i think it’s even possible to call this doomed love ever having existed at all into question if the headcanoner or writer likes, but that’s just me.

3. the idea that, as the text says, as soon as eöl falls idril instantly knows maeglin is bad news and that fate wills what happens to him and idril always mistrusts him just doesn’t track given that turgon loves and trusts maeglin!!! why, unless he’s just an awful father, would turgon so love and trust maeglin if his beloved daughter was uncomfortable with him and disliked him or really felt he was a creep? it also doesn’t make sense to me that, even if maeglin was in a one-sided love with idril and she knew about it, she would hate him for it as the silmarillion says. elves, from both the laws and customs among the eldar and the silmarillion, love truly and don’t get to choose who they love, even if it’s someone forbidden to them (read: beren and luthien). as long as maeglin isn’t bothering her, which there’s no reason to suggest that he is given that it’s never mentioned and turgon has no issue with maeglin, it would be rather cruel of idril to hold it against him and we have no reason to think anything ill of her. also, if, as the silmarillion says, idril instantly mistrusts maeglin after seeing him watch his abusive father die, that seems uncharacteristically unkind of her and, again, there’s no reason to think anything bad of idril. 

4. i think it is important to remember about maeglin’s character that because of the way eöl talks about the noldor, both to maeglin and to turgon, we know he not only hated the noldor, but hated the idea that maeglin would be in any way like them or one of them. however, there’s enough to suggest the noldor don’t like that maeglin is eöl’s son either and not just because he killed aredhel. there’s, of course, the feud between the noldor and the sindar with ill on both sides, but i mean eöl specifically. we know that other marriages between noldor and sindar happen without much issue, so it’s not that eöl is a sinda. no, i think it is because of the, to say the least, dubious nature of eöl and aredhel’s marriage. they are considered married, both because of the laws and customs of the eldar and because aredhel declares them so, albeit reluctantly. however, eöl canonically trapped aredhel and there is no way, because no one heard from aredhel for many years after she went missing in nan elmoth, that any noldorin customs about marriage could possibly have been observed save the, um, wedding itself. curufin goes so far as to say that aredhel was “stolen”. not that the sons of fëanor have any great love for the sindar, anyway, but curufin, who, along with celegorm and his other brothers, was a close friends of aredhel’s in ancient days, hates eöl rather violently and quite personally. this, to me, further implies a potentially dubious marriage. now, there is of course the classic line that aredhel was “not wholly unwilling” but that implies she isn’t wholly willing either. as a result of all this, i think it quite possible that the noldor of gondolin see maeglin as almost an illegitimate child. eöl himself calls him an “ill-gotten son”. if this is true, maeglin is caught in an impossible situation. his sindarin father hated that he was noldorin in a way, the noldor see him as all but a bastard and, from the way the silmarillion talks about him, don’t like how sindarin he is. this is an impossible position.

5. supposedly, maeglin is only threatened by morgoth before he breaks but the way it’s phrased “maeglin was no weakling nor craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened...” implies that whatever was threatened against him was something truly awful. it’s really no far stretch to suggest maeglin was, indeed, tortured. you can even read that line that way. knowing what we know about every other major character who ends up in angband (maedhros, gwindor, húrin, etc.) it’s not far-fetched, either. in fact, it seems almost more unlikely that maeglin walks out unscathed. consider: if maedhros fëanorian, thousands of years old and one of the most powerful of all the noldor, could be made to beg for death at morgoth’s tortures, i don't think there’s any real limit to what a 180 something year old maeglin could be made to do or promise. maeglin had, by that point, survived the nirnaeth and his childhood and everything else, he is not weak. and to break under morgoth’s torture would not make him weak.

6.  maeglin being somehow unable to tell anyone what’s coming in gondolin, but forced to watch it happen, would actually be very in line with what happens to húrin, who was also kept captive in angband because he wouldn’t reveal gondolin’s location. he’s forced to watch, powerless, as his children’s doom unfolds. maeglin, made to return and watch gondolin fall, would parallel it directly. that idril senses all is not well with maeglin when he returns is potentially evidence to this possibility.

7. the way that the silmarillion talks about maeglin, like his fate is an inevitability of his birth, like he’s the singular traitor to blame, that it was just and that everyone knew he was bad right from the start sounds exactly like something a heartbroken people looking for someone to blame would say. the general tone of “we never liked him!” is too convenient a line. it’s too convenient for them that they have reason to think maeglin is somehow partially an outsider and that, because his father mistreated his mother, he was just bound to turn out that way. it doesn’t acknowledge anything else we know about him. 

in short, i don’t know what happened to maeglin, exactly, but i think there’s fair evidence it didn’t go down as the silmarillion tells it.

[diversetolkien]

gilgaergaladriellion replied to your post “questions on Galadriel”

I really liked the way you wrote,but it kinda made me angry at how negative it seemed.Galadriel is my second favorite character in all of Tolkien’s books(with Sam as my favorite)and it pained my hearth to read something so bad about her.Tolkien’s books were not supposed to be compared with today’s (or any)society.And I never saw the elves as imperialistic,but thinking about it know,I think you’re right.Maybe, only for people like me,tell them the reasons why they acted how they did?Havea niceday

@gilgaergaladriellion

Thank you so much, I’m glad you appreciated what I wrote, even with Galadriel being your favorite character. People aren’t always willing to recognize that her flaws go further than arrogance, and that her entire narrative is based off of imperialism and colonization.

It’s not always easy to accept that.  

Unfortunately, I do disagree on the bit where Tolkien’s works were not supposed to be compared to society. They have allusions to real life, Tolkien’s real life. If they weren’t supposed to be compared, than I doubt he’d add aspects of himself into his writings. He even compares his own worlds to real life worlds (Numenor and Ancient Egypt), so to say his writings aren’t supposed to be compared to any societies is just incorrect.

If we’re talking about Galadriel’s writing,  and others like that, they’re most likely written as they are because that’s what was normalized in Tolkien’s society. Imperialism was seen as a good thing, he grew up in a society that was colonized, and though he was against it to some extent, it was ingrained in him to the point of normalizing it in his works.

Also the image of a white woman presiding over those below her has been a common image, and a trope unfortunately adapted into our modern media.

doublo replied to your post “questions on Galadriel”

He could certainly have written her as assimilating- that's how he wrote Thranduil. Granted, the whole 'less wise more dangerous' thing is there in Thranduil's narrative, and Thranduil is still a white savior in that he's a white-coded ruler in a poc-coded society, but he did write Thranduil as getting to the top after assimilating, didn't he?

@doublo

He could have written Galadriel as assimilating, but I think it’s evident to see, that through Tolkien's writing, he wasn’t exactly “pro-assimilation”, at least not when it concerned a lesser group of individuals. Galadriel presiding over the Silvan was seen as a good thing, while Thranduil’s realm is deemed as less wise, and being destroyed by Sauron’s people. And Thranduil assimilated

So it’s clear which one he favors. If i’m correct, Galadriel was one of Tolkien’s favorite characters, so he projected a lot of “positive” social norms into her character, things that made her look good.

If there’s anything I dislike with Thranduil’s characters, it is that he is white, and that he is their King. However, as you said, he assimilates, so I consider that his saving grace.  He doesn’t impose his rule over anyone. And even though the Silvan of Mirkwood are considered more dangerous and less wise, I believe Thranduil is considered amongst them, as there’s no distinction that separates him. So it’s not like he was being deemed as the only wise one.

I also like to think Legolas is half Silvan, as we never see his mother, so it’s not stated that she’s Sindar.