#mando culture critical

[antianakin]

Okay, what about more AUs where a Jedi leaves the Order and becomes a Mandalorian because they feel like the Order is too restrictive and caught up in politics or whatever, and then they realize how much they HATE it and how much better the Jedi Order was specifically BECAUSE they have these rules that actually make life so much better overall. Like yeah, sure, the Jedi have to play politics sometimes and that can be frustrating, but look at what happens when everyone is doing whatever they want and fighting for themselves. It's not good. Sure, the Jedi don't allow marriage and children, but look at what happens when certain families are given more power than others just by luck of birth or by which person can beat up someone from the other person's family better. Look at the dynasties and hierarchies it creates and how much conflict comes out of it.

And so they quit being a Mandalorian and go back to being a Jedi because they have seen the light.

[thebusylilbee]

"Bo Katan walks both worlds she can bring all tribes together" is genuinely such a fucking joke !

they had everything to make this journey significant to Din's character ! him TAKING OFF his helmet TO SAVE A FOUNDLING after a lifetime of keeping it on, out of faith in his people and their culture, is SO MUCH MORE poignant than Bo-Katan keeping the helmet on for like two days after being a little shocked to see a mythosaur... and he did it to save his jedi foundling no less ! him being the one "who walks both worlds" would have been a perfect parallel to Grogu being tied between Jedi and Mandalorian cultures, and could have been nourished by Luke Skywalker also changing the jedi way from what was done to Anakin ! cultures evolving for the good of their people !!! people being attached to traditions but also open to change !!! but fuck it, CGI Luke was too expensive and we're tired of Din being the main character I guess ?

not to mention the whole deal of Din being someone who prefers to stay in the shadows suddenly being shoved under the spotlights by fate alone ! like actually if you think about it : 1) his need for companionship, 2) his need for fatherhood that he doesn't even dare admit, 3) and his willingness to become "A Hero" because of his care for others, despite him actually hating being at the center of Significant Historical Events, all these things are all like.. his entire character !!! that's the whole core of this guy !!! What the fuck is left if there's 1) no conflict with the need for companionship (he's back to not having doubts and deep feelings about the helmet thing), 2) no conflict in fatherhood (the kid is no longer a jedi in the blink of an eye in a fucking spin off episode), and 3) no conflict with his willingness to become A Hero to save his son and his friends even if he doesn't like it (fate gave him that darksaber but actually he can remain Just A Guy it's fine, Bo Katan can take the lead) like ???

what's left is pure nothingness, this show means nothing and says nothing and that's why it doesn't bother with giving important moments that would have felt fully earned to its actual main character

[short-wooloo]

The fact that mandos didn't wipe themselves out from their in fighting and picking fights with their neighbors is bigger plot armor than beskar

[cienie-isengardu]

A bit about The Mandalorian s03′s take on mandalorian culture

As much as I like the concept of Living Waters, I do not like how the third season of The Mandalorian presents Mandalorian culture overall. I wasn’t happy with the characterization in the previous two, but the current take is even worse. Major reason for my disdain  stems from the too medieval climate - Bo’s castle, throne, the royal family and its subjects, the baptism-like ceremony, all of this is opposite to Legends!Mandalorian for whom personal skills stood above any blood-connection in regard to their rulers thus no aristocracy was ever needed. The New Mandalorians’ royalty was a good concept in The Clone Wars as it stood in clear contrast to Death Watch’s old warrior faith and added an interesting edge to the destruction of Mandalore and following Republic occupation (that may have never truly ended by the ~700 years). In The Clone Wars, Death Watch was Bo-Katan’s major tie, but since Rebels, the focus is put on her sisterhood with Satine and the royal family status and The Mandalorian season three expand this even more - she lived in castle, sit on throne, had ceremonial “baptism” as princess and so on. At this point I really miss the “barbarian” feeling of Death Watch even more since Bo’s own Mandalorian warriors were removed from the story, leaving us with one lone Bo-Katan, Boba Fett on Tatooine or whatever he is as I don’t follow his TV series and cult-ish Children of the Watch. Which is pretty irritating, I won’t lie, especially since later seasons of TCW, Rebels and now the TV series don’t bother to even mention Pre Vizsla or Bo’s criminal past - and mind you, this is no “Bo shouldn’t have her redemption arc” - which she arguable already had as freedom fighter against Empire and more complain that Disney/New Canon on purpose erase problematic or nuanced elements of its own worldbuilding. Like, mentioned Bo’s past and her part in the fall of Mandalore or how she was elected/accepted by clans because now Darksaber can be only passed through the fight? And why? Because Mandalorians can’t make a sensible choice about whom they should follow? Because they can’t stick to an ideological case that was important in the previous season but now Bo has no darksaber so her own clan abandoned her to be mercenary? Like, seriously? What happened to the Mandalorian loyalty to the family? Bo may have lost the status of Mandalore, yet Din did not make a claim to be new sole leader so why Koska - described in Character Encyclopedia as “loyal member of Bo’s Mandalorian gang” ditched her companion? 

Seriously, at this point I admire Bo-Katan’s loyalty to Pre Vizsla as she threw away the ancient laws out of window the moment Maul killed her leader / friend and sure, she came with the no outsider is allowed to be Mandalore argument (something that from historical perspective is not true, as in ancient times Ulic Qel-Droma dueled with Mandalore and his success was accepted by warriors) but The Clone Wars made it pretty clear Pre’s death was an emotionally wrecking moment in her life. Arguably more than Satine’s death yet the newest animations and TV series mentions only her sister in passing but not a man that clearly meant something to her. Which is, again, an irritating aspect of Disney’s New Canon. 

There is also no mention of Satine as pacifist / New Mandalorian leader, no mention of Pre Vizsla (who in contrast to Din was capable of using darksaber which is pretty hilarious side-effect of switching lore about this weapon from “ancient item passed in Clan Vizsla” to “well known Mandalorian attribute of power” ) or Death Watch in general. Instead we have this cult-ish Children of the Watch with the weird rule forbidding members to remove the helmet even in presence of their own family and who seem to care more about if the helmet was removed than about Creed itself as was seen with Bo accidentally joining this group. A rule that A) feels to be a rip-off from Sand People’s culture (except Tuskens are allowed to see the face of their spouse) B) has no sense because it is not the armor that makes anyone a Mandalorian but personal deeds. And sure, beskar’gam always played an important role in Mandalorian culture yet at this point I’m truly tired of putting so much focus on armor rather than the soul of a Mandalorian warrior. Armor can be destroyed and rebuilt after all but what counts are the people who wear it, not the other way.

For me, Children of the Watch worked in the previous season because we still had Bo’s clan and Boba Fett (loner) to somehow balance the overview of Mandalorian culture yet in the third season the different types of Mandalorians were removed from the story. Boba is out of the picture, Bo was abandoned by her own people and so there is only Din and Armorer’s tribe  that is too frustrating for my taste. I like the religious aspect it brings to the show but it is hard to take seriously this group as representative of Mandalorian people with their silly rule about not removing helmets (how do they even take care of their personal hygiene then? How do they cut their hair? What about deaf members? How can they learn to read from lips or read anything from facial expression if other members can’t show their face? I know Din communicated with Tusken via hand signals but since children grew up around masked adults how does the communication work exactly? What about an intimate relationship? Or growing up and not having a clue how your mother’s face looks under the helmet? Or father, older sibling, other clan (family) members? What about providing medical assistance in the event of a head injury?). Not to mention the whole weird deal with Armorer who has such great knowledge about Mandalorian lore but doesn’t teach it unless the situation requires her to give a proper explanation? Mind you I did not rewatch the previous seasons so my memory may be a bit rusty but Din did not even know who the Jedi were even though they have special place in Mandalorian history (usually negative in the sense they are the enemy hard to defeat in fair fight) and it was pretty common thing for “normal” Mandalorian to teach their kids about the danger coming from force-sensitive people? And sure, Jedi were supposed to be dead but if Din was a bounty hunter how he has never heard about them with the Rebellion having this one special Jedi in their rank who also happened to be the most wanted man by the Empire?

The Mandalorian TV series creates a long list of question I have about its worldbuilding around Mandalorian culture that somehow switched from Legends “only the best can be Mandalore” and “Mandalorians believe in loyalty” to Disney’s “royal families” and “let’s ditch our leader and our cause just because someone’s else has darksaber yet makes no claim about leadership”. Or let's use a cool looking darksaber as a haunted item that for no real reason is also a symbol of leadership because the Jedi weapon is the most Mandalorian symbol of all possible choices apparently.

And you know what was great about Fenn Shysa and his protectors who fought against the Empire in the older source material? That the fight against imperial enslavement truly united Mandalorians to the point that even former Death Watchmen joined his group. As much as I like Bo-Katan’s comment about how Mandalorian fight against each other often for weird reasons, it truly saddens me that in Disney’s canon even the common enemy like Empire did not manage to unite Mandalorians. Because it is better drama when everyone bothers with some random mystic item than actually working together to take your freedom back and rebuild your world. But sure, whatever.

I seriously miss Legends Mandalorians because Disney’s take on them is so frustrating.

[mamuzzy]

What is considered child mistreatment in Mandalorian culture (legends)?

I was inspired by this post but I didn't want to ruin a mood with my AcKcHuYaLlY vibes so I made a separate post about it.

While I agree with a sentiment of Cuy'val Dar should have rioted seeing children being mistreated, given they are a very heavily family and child centered culture, I've just recently read a few quotes from Republic Commando which made me wonder...

what is considered child mistreatment in their culture?

Because training children to be soldiers are not one. It is a perfectly normal thing to do for them.

What you will read here about: -- Potential reasons why the Cuy'val Dar didn't refuse the job -- Relationship of a Mando parent and their child: How Munin Skirata adopted Kal and with it giving him a predetermined path of life -- Little detour to the topic of how modernday parents don't include children in the household chores -- Pav-Ti and Ahsoka -- Walon Vau and Dred Priest's approach -- Kal Skirata's approach of training -- Little about Mandos and Jedi -- Sorry (not really), people. I still love Kal. -- I won't tag this as anti/pro/critical fandom fuckery. Only a Sith deaIs in absolutes.

Rest is under the cut.

Why would Cuy'val Dar accept such assignment in the first place?

So why didn't they say no? 1. Loyalty and Respect for Jango Fett 2. In need of money 3. Needed a place to hide 4. It could be HONOUR: If a mando bounty hunter accepts a job, they won't back down from it. That's why they are the best. A mandalorian either completes the job or they die in the process (see: Hard Contact). 5. Child soldiers are nothing out of place.

But the latter is debatable, depending on which bounty hunter you ask. Kal was horrified when he was presented with the facts. Scene from Triple Zero, where Kal realizes what Jango is expecting of him:

Jango Fett indeed didn't tell them the whole truth. I'm pretty sure there would have been people who would have accept it anyway. But I'm also sure most of them were conned this way.

We even know Kal's reason of accepting the job.

He didn't have any outside ties anymore that required his physical presence, so at this point he could just accept a decade long assignment.

And when he met the Nulls, he gave himself a purpose out of this nightmare. Raising these children as Mandalorians.

But where this is come from? From Kal's own buir.

Another quote about how Munin adopted Kal.

Awfully practical people. But also, compassionate. Kal is guided by the same compassion as his buir.

Overprotected children of our modern age

Family centric and child centric views are really distorted today which is about overprotecting kids from literally everything. Even from basic household chores: a parent who is too tired and impatient for their child constantly making mistakes during learning a task, so they simply take it out from the child's hand and doing it instead, because teaching them comes with much more mess to clean up, therefor more work for the parent. Children won't learn that helping out around the house can be a quality time with the parent, because most parents don't consider being together with their children a quality time. This later leads to those awful fights between a teenager who never helps around the house on their own only when asked/ordered. Children are glorified exotic pets, one task from a bucket list or worst, investments. But part of the family? Less likely. Not unconditionally.

PAV-TI AND AHSOKA

If you think about Ahsoka's backstory in the Tales of the Jedi, her mother also brought her on the hunt and made her look when she skinned the animal. Teaching her that death is a part of life and even when they take resources from the nature, they should do it with respect. Pav-Ti was already teaching her to be a part of their small community.

I think Mando culture is the same: they involve their children in their profession from early age. Probably teaching your children how to kill for money is not exactly ethical by our earthling standards. Regardless, they do it together. Little mando'ade won't go to school, they spend their time with the family and learning skills they will need if they choose the same profession and lifestyle as their parents.

PRACTICES OF VARIOUS MEMBERS OF THE CUY'VAL DAR

So that's why I think that even if the members of the Cuy'Val Dar had seconds thoughts, training child soldiers are nothing out of ordinary. I can't speak for the remaining non-mando trainers what was in their mind.

But when Dred Priest and Isabeth Beau started their own little figthing rings in the guise of "preserving the old ways", it was really considered fucky even among the other mando trainers Death Watch couple-goals: torture children together <3. Dred Priest despised the clone cadets and they actually died under his care and this is one of the reason why Mij Gilamar killed Priest later in the books.

Walon Vau wasn't introduced to mando values until he ran away from home as an adult, but his abusive upbringing shaped his worldview on how he trained the cadets. Strict codes and harsh punishments. He had his regrets of it later.

From O66, Walon Vau to Kal Skirata

Love has many shapes. Vau wanted them to survive because he loved them. But loving them and treating them good/bad is not the same.

We know about Kal that he taught by experience. He never gave an assignment to his cadets before he first showed them how to do it.

And then we have these notorious parts of him regarding the clones which can be interpreted so many ways but often used as the evidence as child abuse:

And this one also:

(sometimes I throw my brain outtaaa windoooOOooOooOow what people call abusive these days...)

What is my stance about this particular passage? I think he didn't abuse the clones. He wanted them to survive too. He wanted to make it easier for them which was really hard considering the circumstances. He wanted to be a father to the clones like Munin was to him.

We saw the differences between Omega Squad and Delta Squad. The Delta first left Walon Vau behind because they were ordered to do so. Delta left Sev behind because they were ordered to do so. As far as we know, no one deserted from the Empire from Vau's commandos. They remained loyal to the Republic/Empire. Darman could have been with his son and with Clan Skirata but he choose to remain with Niner in the Empire. He remained loyal not the empire, not even Kal Skirata but his brother. Just like Kal thaught them.

What makes them different from the jedi and at the same time so similiar?

The Jedi seek out force sensitive children to teach them how to control this power within them and make sure, they won't use it for personal gain. And later, when they grow up, they will do the same.

Mandos take pity over war orphans (usually that's the case), take them into their clan of soldiers and they teach them a profession and one day, they can do the same.

Both faction are doing it, guided by the same principle: COMPASSION.

Jedi are practicing compassion toward every living, while Mando compassion is just much more personal on the individual level.

Dialogue from Imperial Commando between Arligan Zey and Kal Skirata. I think this baby stealing prejudice comes from that force sensitive children are separated from their parents and all this goes against the family centric view of the mandalorians where family is above all and the children are only safe with their families.

In conclusion...

My personal take after this little research that Mando trainers didn't abuse children, not in their own mandalorian standards. I say this because of Dred Priest who was condemned for actually hurting his cadets, forcing them to fight against each other, and lots of them actually died.

After the failed experiences with the Nulls, the kaminoans and trainers didn't expose the clones to live rounds and bombs until so much later, that's why the commandos and Alpha-class ARCs feel much more balanced in their phyche.

I think Walon Vau abused his cadets but he justified it with love.

Kal made them to do horrible exercises and said a lot of shitty things to the clones (though I think it's kind of like when you call your cat a whore out of affection) but overall he tried to make their suffering bearable.

[lieutenant-teach]

Being a pro-Jedi fan is super hard.

Stumbled upon a scientific paper ‘The Psychgeist of Pop Culture’ (2024) about ‘The Mandalorian’ and ‘The Book of Boba Fett’ series. It’s divided into many smaller research by various PhDs. The Boba chapters are actually very good.

And then there’s ‘Fatherhood and male emotions’ chapter. About Jedi. About attachment. The authors Keely Diebold and Meghan Sander, PhDs, are claimed as Jedi fans.

Good start. / s Bad enough Din Djarin is called ‘Djarin’ as a name throughout the whole paper (my own pet peeve about the dick move of Favreau and Filoni in the end of Season 3 which is a decision to criticize in itself). Of course, Obi-Wan wasn’t a ‘good father figure’ as claimed by Lucas himself. Neither was Bail Organa. /s

Yeah. Hypocrisy. Hey, ‘Jedi fans authors’, have you actually watched the movies? Sigh. Seriously, ‘the intergalactic therapists’ who were trying to help Anakin to cope with his emotions so much, working with ‘cognitive therapy’ – they suppressed emotions. I just… don’t have any coherent thoughts about that bullshit on the screencap. And – now we defend Palpatine. Just great.

By the way, rewatching Indiana Jones movies, I paid special attention to the moments when someone of the team is left behind and the main characters continue chasing the enemies (just like in the mentioned scene in AOTC). And it’s never presented as ‘left behind and forgotten, heroes don’t care about them’.

What is evident to me is that this all is a piece of banthashit. Mandos with the suppression of emotions – I agree. Jedi? When one of their main proverbs ‘feel, don’t think’?

‘His own interpretation’? It’s not! Why did the authors decide that’s what happened? The point is that Anakin is taught ‘compassion, which … [is] unconditional love, is central to a Jedi’s life. … we are encouraged to love’ by the Jedi, but acts in the way he wants regardless. Screams in the plush Grogu How do people manage to watch obvious in messaging children films with their ass holes?

Frankly, I suspect that these ‘Jedi-fans’ authors just don’t understand and didn’t even try to explore the meaning of ‘attachment’ in Star Wars – it’s not ‘a deep and enduring emotional bond that connects one person to another’, it’s ‘selfishness’. They never tried to google Lucas’s interviews, but only used books about child rearing. This is why we have all this crap in a ‘scientific paper’. I firmly believe that @david-talks-sw, @writerbuddha, @kanansdume, @antianakin, @smhalltheurlsaretaken and other fans could write a whole paper about Jedi and attachments – and this would be real in-depth analysis of the Jedi and Star Wars.

And a rotten cherry on the top of this shitcake I noticed just before publishing – using ScreenRant as a reference not the smartest move, really.

Now how can a reader trust your judgment if you use fucking ScreenRant as a proof? Ah, no, they cannot (see this whole post).

[dailydragon08]

I hate the “no attachments” rhetoric so much and I hate that both Ahsoka and Luke in Mando and TBOBF fell straight back into it. Cuz they especially should know more than anyone that the feelings of isolation, feeling like you’re not in a safe space to healthily process your emotions—which requires actually feeling them and being in an environment where you’re allowed to feel them—and feeling like you have a support system where you can speak your feelings without judgment to get guidance and support is REQUIRED for Jedi to stay on the light side. Cuz loneliness, feeling like a burden, feeling like if you have one bad emotion it makes you all bad because of rules around feelings that are unrealistic and too rigorous makes you way more susceptible to the dark side.

Trying to beat bad emotions out of people completely is unrealistic. Expecting literal children to not feel those feelings and just know what to do with them cuz you’ve created a space where those feelings are forbidden is unrealistic. Pushing feelings and emotions down and “burying” them (re: obi wan telling luke “bury your feelings deep down” in ROTJ) and expecting those people to be perfectly healthy is unrealistic. Wanting this level of control over people, their thoughts, and their emotions, and this black and white thinking is not only toxic and dangerous, but is akin to cult culture. The PT era Jedi were extremists in this way and just too blind and couldn’t accept any criticism enough to see it because for some reason, a bunch of old guys decided evolution was not allowed and they’d just keep running the system the same way they always had with no room for change and that would somehow be this foolproof path to survival—which is a complaint a lot of people have about our current irl political system and is causing a lot of damage, btw.

Like wasn’t that the whole point of showing the Jedi’s fall? And doesn’t clone wars especially show how this thinking created all these cracks in the system that Palpatine was easily able to exploit and manipulate and Anakin was just someone who wanted change in the order and he was ostracized for it, so Palpatine latched onto him and Anakin was like “oh finally someone values me,” just to be manipulated and abused and have his whole life blown up to the point that he thought the empire was his only option (obv not excusing the atrocities, just saying I can see how he got to where he did mentally by ROTS)? Like he literally tells Luke that they can team up to overthrow the emperor and in ROTJ, when Luke tries to get him to run with him pre-throne room battle, he says “it’s too late for me,” so he KNOWS this is bad and only going to get worse, but has resigned himself to it.

Like wasn’t the whole point of the OT and the “I can’t kill my own father/there’s still good in him/I can turn him back to the good side” meant to prove that Jedi DO NEED healthy connections in order to thrive and stay on the light side? If they wanna forbid anything, they should be forbidding possession and control, but the PT Jedi Council instead used that for their own benefit and lacked any self awareness to see they’d just become what they were preaching against.

Like give me a post-OT Jedi council who teaches healthy connection and letting things go that aren’t meant for you to control and that friendships and relationships can be powerful things that bring you back to the light in your darkest moments, and a more Legends-esque New Jedi Order that values emotional health and well-being and is a safe space for not only the galaxy, but Force sensitives, no matter how they’re built instead of trying to force everyone into the same box. This is the order I wanted to see Luke cultivate in canon and I will forever be salty that this isn’t what we got.

[thegreatzombieartisan]

Rings of Power + Tolkien Fusion Meta

Elvish Love, Sex, and the Single Maia

“Elves only love and marry once.”

Yeah, the Laws and Customs of the Eldar (Elves) aren’t this clear-cut. Foremost, Elves reflect Tolkien’s devout Catholic ideal including his strongly held belief in the dangers of unbridled sexuality. Also, Tolkienverse runs on morality and mysticism, not science.

Update: After performing direct research and analysis on Tolkien’s LACE text, I’ve come to new conclusions. I’ve highlighted updates in this post in blue. Otherwise the rest remains aligns and unchanged.

For Elves love =/= marriage. Most unions are love matches but at . However, Tolkien did write about Elves who love yet never wed à la courtly love. Elves that love with our reciprocity, even when married. Moreover, of lusty Elf men who wed Elf maidens with dubious consent gained from questionable means.

But sex complicates things. Elves are monogamous. And it's not just culturally.

Elf sex = marriage = binding. Elf marriage = intent + sex or binding of hröa/body and fëa/spirit. Since Elves are inherently bound to Arda’s fate through their fëa/spirit, marriages are thus eternal.

Most couples have children early in marriage and with each child, their sex drive would diminish. It infers that sex (at least cultural) is viewed as being primarily purposed for begetting of children. Based on that, though not explicitly stated in text, it’s also inferred that “real” sex, that kind that led to bringing, would be was PIV (pen-in-vagina). Perhaps a consolation price strong incentive for eternal monogamy, Elf sex is intensely pleasurable.

For Elves, choosing the right partner critical. Divorce doesn’t exist. More accurately, divorce can’t exist because Elves can’t unfuck-bind themselves. But the Valar, spirit stewards of Arda who favor the Elves, are capable. Otherwise an unhappy Elf couple could lead separate lives, and maybe love others, but not remarry.

Can widowed Elves remarry? In the uncommon event an Elf dies, its spirit is summoned to the Halls of Mandos (aka purgatory). After an unspecified amount of time, the Valar will typically reincarnate them. During this Time of Waiting, both dead and living Elf spouse remain bonded. Upon reincarnation, the formerly dead spouse returns home like returning from a very long trip to the store for bread.

As it stands, the Valar will unbind a widowed Elf’s marriage in these rare events: the dead spouse refuses the summons to Mandos (usually evil Elves), eschews reincarnation like Míriel (Celebrimbor’s great-grandma), or denied the opportunity like Feanor aka “Mr. Fuck the Morgoth, Valar, and Teleri Elves.”

Therefore, in RoP, even if Celeborn were indeed dead, he and Galadriel are still bonded. But look, the way she said, “And you? My king?” sounded thisclose to RISKING IT ALL for power and sitting on Halbrand’s handsome face for eternity.

Asking for a friend: Can Maiar and Elves “marry”? Yes, with ample space for speculation and theory

The only canon union between a Maia and Child of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) was Melian and High-King Thingol. They begot Luthien, a powerful Elf and fairest Maiden ever. She even once beat Sauron in a duel.

Maiar are disembodied Eälar or spirits that contrasted with fëar/spirits of Elves and Men. Halbrand is Sauron’s fana/physical form he can change like clothes. But far as an Maia-Elf marriage aka sexy times goes, it’s unclear if it’s inferred binding is like Elven marriage because begetting children requires mutual intention to impart each parent’s spirit to the child. But either way, it doesn’t provoke any mystical moral cockblocking.

Well, one thing is clear: Melian literally fucked around, begot Luthien, and found out such activity had a side effect. She became permanently bonded to her fana. Donning a new fana requires the death of the bonded fana. To note, even though Melian bonded to an Elven fana, she retained her Maia spirit class.

What if Thingol had an Elven wife in the Halls of Mandos? Understand that Elves live on Middle-Earth to guide Men toward a righteous path. Elves and Maiar cucking dead Elf spouses certainly defies Tolkien’s “ideal devout Catholic” behavior. Assuredly he’d invent some mystical punishment to reenforce monogamy. Perhaps even Valar intervention but if they let Morgoth and Sauron run wild, I doubt it. But without precedence, it can only be speculated.

But renegade Maiar like Melian and Sauron do not give a FUCK nor need the Valar’s approval. If they want to fuck elves, THEY WILL FUCK ELVES.

Thus, irrespective of likelihood, conscience, or wisdom, no laws bar love and/or sex between Galadriel and Sauron. Platonic besties, chaste courtly love, or cucking Celeborn to the end of Arda - do you, you crazy kids. Since she is still married to, the closet thing to binding with Sauron would be with a 3rd party conduit and magic. Like a blood oath. Or rings of power (teehee).

Many challenges exist to a productive Galadriel and Sauron union beyond the metaphysical. And the most awkward would follow her spirit husband’s reincarnation. Imagine Celeborn discovering Morgoth’s first lieutenant has been railing his wife for centuries (now that’s a good fanfic prompt).

Thank you for reading! Your likes and reblogs are appreciated. Got feedback?

What did you like? Got theories or insights to share?

Disagree? I love good faith debate and sparring!

Something not quite making sense? Got feedback on readability?

Spot an inaccuracy? Hey, Tolkien's work is complex. Drop it in comments or DM.

[corellianhounds]

Analyzing The Mandalorian’s Motivations — “The Heiress” Criticism

Part I / Part II

Word Count: 2k

I have several issues with how Mando is characterized in Season 2 of the show, and some of the most concise examples come from actions in “The Heiress” and “The Rescue,” which have parallels in their ending fights and character takeaways. In Season 2 it often felt like the end result the writers wanted dictated how certain plot points had to be accomplished without taking into consideration what the characters logically should have done in the situations that came up based on their prior scenes and established characterization. It didn’t feel like Mando’s reasoning, choices, or personal motivations were explored or exemplified, so his agency as a character was put to the side in favor of meeting certain plot beats (though he wasn’t the only one).

The biggest conflict of this show is the fact that being a Mandalorian makes Din susceptible to danger at every turn, which he feels is no life for a kid to be a part of, and the longer the things he holds dear are in proximity to each other (him being a devout Mandalorian vs. keeping a mostly helpless Force-sensitive child), the more he’s in danger of losing one for the sake of the other. Both are at the core of Mando’s internal conflict, which sets up the biggest question of the series: “If forced to choose, which will be more important to the Mandalorian in the end?”

That gives us an overall objective of Mando needing to give the child to somebody else so the kid will be safe and he can continue to be the kind of Mandalorian he aspires to, even if it means he and the kid will be separated as a result. That internal struggle should dictate each of his smaller choices within the individual episodes because at this point in their story he doesn’t see any other way for him to have both.

For some reason, Season 2 felt like the writers missed the obvious reason Grogu needs a Jedi teacher. Mando needs to find a Jedi to train the boy so that not only will Grogu be safe (and presumably happy) with a person who better understands him as a Force-sensitive child, but so Grogu will be able to defend himself when he is alone. It’s important to remember that the Jedi code wasn’t just a belief system and way of life, it was also a martial art.

Even if Din were to keep the child and protect him to the best of his ability, he knows his own past as a hunter and his reputation as a Mandalorian make the child a target by association (to say nothing of the Empire and whoever they send after them, though he won’t know those are still a threat until later). The child does not age at the same rate humans do, and Mando knows there’s no guarantee he’ll always be around to save him. Even if he survives to old age with the child by his side, he doesn’t know if the child will be mature or capable enough of even caring for himself, especially if he doesn’t grow to be much bigger than he is now. Grogu needs to learn self defense and strengthen his skills if he is to ever have a chance at surviving those he outlives. Din has to reckon with the fact being the best Mandalorian he could be isn’t enough to keep the child safe on his own (which is another inner conflict we don’t get to hear about from him).

We never hear Din’s perspective on his quest outside of “This is what I was told to do,” which makes him a character the story is happening to instead of him driving his own narrative. The external goal is good because it means we get to see him struggling to keep the child at arm’s length, knowing he’ll have to give him up and not wanting either of them to be hurt by that separation, but Mando needed to have that internal motivation because it ties directly back to his main objective. Yes, the Armorer tasked him with returning the child to his own kind, but it was not only because she understood the importance of him being raised with his own culture, it was because the child is virtually helpless if his strength and control over the Force is inconsistent like Din has seen.

Without that internal motivation, Mando ends up not having much choice in where the story goes, making his character in the second season weaker as a result.

So now we’ve clarified his overarching goal and given him a more driven role and perspective in the story. Everything that follows should be a result of his active ambition in achieving it, which brings me back to his choices in “The Heiress.”

This episode introduces the idea of different Mandalorians having different customs/placing importance on different aspects of the code, but has Din choose to set those thoughts regarding ritual aside in order for him to receive information now that he realizes he’s so close to getting it (showing us him prioritizing the child over himself). What we didn’t get and what we should have gotten to see was Mando more visually desperate to achieve the episode’s tasks in exchange for the connection Bo-Katan has directly to a Jedi. The internal conflict of the episode now comes down to “What is Mando willing to compromise on to achieve his goals, and how far is he willing to deviate from his own code to get it?”

The main external conflict the writers/show-runners initiate but don’t resolve is Mando’s problem with Bo-Katan not sticking to the terms of their contract. Bo-Katan changes the terms of the deal midway through the heist, having kept her real motive from him the whole time. His character has no reason in these circumstances to honor the deal that she broke first, and I think his willingness to continue with the heist in order to get the information deviates too far from another seldom-explored, nuanced character trait of Mando’s: while he does give everybody at least one chance, if they prove to be a continued threat or refuse to back down, he reacts with swift, decisive justice.

This should have been the point in the episode where her actions were the last straw; she put him in a much more dangerous position and proved by her deception that she was using him. This should have been the point he said “No.”

I made a post before talking about Gor Koresh that puts Mando’s actions into perspective, but there are plenty of examples in every episode to back up the fact Mando has a tipping point. That’s a good thing. Yes, it’s admirable how much Mando shows restraint, but there has to come a point where your characters refuse to do something because otherwise they’re just a pushover and a doormat. Characters shouldn’t have to say yes to everything, and they should be able to make decisions that result in the story becoming more difficult for them. His choice here, outside of saving his own skin so he can guarantee being able to get back to the kid he is responsible for, should be to let Bo-Katan experience the consequences of her actions. He should have refused to let her be rewarded for her deception. He doesn’t have to shoot her to prove a point, but he certainly doesn’t have to help her.

If he’s willing to let their dishonorable actions slide, what else would he be willing to let others do at the expense of himself without holding them accountable or without them receiving the consequences they deserve? What aspects of himself will he compromise? I’m not even talking about compromise in the choice to take the helmet off in “The Believer,” I’m talking about who he is as a person.

Bo-Katan changing the terms of the deal reveals to the audience that she knew he wouldn’t have agreed to do the job in the first place because otherwise she would have told him at the beginning. Hijacking the entire Empire ship is intensely riskier and poses a danger to himself and by extension the kid if he doesn’t make it back. She gets him onto the ship and only reveals her intentions midway through, thinking she’ll be able to coerce him because they’re both Mandalorians.

That should have been the moment Mando decided the cost of this job outweighed the reward because if she was willing to deceive him about this, what reason does he have to trust her at all? She could have simply lied about having any information about a Jedi to begin with, or could withhold the information once the job’s done. Season 2 has several episodes with the theme of honoring one’s word being what marks somebody as a good Mandalorian, or at least as an ally Din can trust. Cobb Vanth, the Tuskens, the Frog Lady, later Boba and Fennec all have story elements that relate to the idea of honoring one’s word.

What Mando should have logically done based on what we’ve seen of him up to this point was tell Bo-Katan “No deal. I’m done. I’ll find the information I need elsewhere.” And then we see him jump off ship.

This has two major consequences to the show’s story moving forward.

• One: Mando doesn’t receive information about the Jedi and will have to find it somewhere else, a cost he is willing to take because staying with Bo-Katan would have meant putting himself at undue risk, with the possibility of her having lied about ever having the information at all. As it stands in canon, he’s forced to allow somebody he thinks SHOULD be honorable to reap the benefits of their dishonor, and what does that say about his character’s sense of justice in the end?

• And two: Bo-Katan’s heist fails, losing her the shipment (and potentially, in her eyes, the information about Moff Gideon she could have gotten if Mando had continued to the cockpit with them to interrogate the Imperials), meaning Bo-Katan’s already established antagonism would have pushed her into open animosity, pitting her against Mando as an enemy. That makes for a much more interesting and compelling narrative conflict Mando has to overcome in the finale when he has to convince her to join him, which would heighten interpersonal tensions and have the audience truly not know whether or not Mando is going to succeed in the end.

It also sets up a stronger villain for Mando after Moff Gideon is defeated. The show already presented Bo-Katan as an antagonist, and it would have made more sense to lean into that especially with the conflict over the Darksaber coming up at the end.

When Mando goes to her in the finale to recruit her for the ambush, Bo-Katan initially refuses anyway. I don’t have reason to think she entirely cares about Mando’s kid because her actions in the heist put him at risk. He is the sole caretaker and provider for the kid, and being willing to risk his life as collateral shows she only cares about Mando insofar as he’s willing to do what she says. With that change to “The Heiress,” each of them becomes a more strongly written character and he now has to make a more compelling argument to get her in the finale. It’s still the fact he knows exactly where Moff Gideon is that wins her over.

Their interpersonal conflict comes to its Act III at the end of the finale when it’s revealed Mando won the Darksaber in combat, and to add insult to injury Mando offers it up in forfeit in front of witnesses, so now she can’t even challenge him to a duel; people will know he never wanted it in the first place, meaning they’ll assume he’d throw any fight the two of them have. It’s the perfect setup for Mando’s next primary antagonist.

[mariandjarin]

Have you heard about Kal Skirata?

There are no words to describe him the way he deserves.

He is stubborn and wise.

An aliit mando.

A very good verd.

His karta is as big as many galaxies together.

He is good at listening, giving advice, and helping.

He is good at recognizing when he doesn't know how to do something to help someone, especially his boys, and he doesn't stop until finding the proper way to give help, or at least try to help as much as he can.

He doesn't consider clones as tools for winning a war.

He considers them as his own sons.

After all, Mandalorian blood runs in their veins. They are fighting a battle that is not theirs.

Even when they were programmed to think that.

Kal knows they have a karta. He knows they are just children that were forced to grow faster than they deserve.

His love for them guided him to adopt the Nulls.

Even when he felt like a failure with his past aliit.

He knew and still knows what is the right thing to do.

Even when he didn't know how to raise six children with lots of questions and hunger, he found a way to do it.

He knows how precious each clone is

That is why he also adopted Omega squad.

For Kal, each clone deserves to be called son.

He knows they deserve more than just that.

He swore not to stop until having helped each one of them to have a proper life.

Kal is full of love.

I think that is the word I could use to summarize what I have told to explain what he is and why he does what he chooses to do.

His love for his sons.

His love for his culture.

Yes, most of the time, he is stressed and tired, he can't sleep for all the trouble inside his head, and he is very criticized, but that doesn't stop him.

If I could describe what a Mando really is and has to be, I would mention him.

Nor Jango Fett or Jaster Mereel

Kal Skirata

Even when he is considered part of the cuy'val dar

Even when he is old

He is more alive than any other Mando who can stand as a Mando

and he will prevail and he will let a legacy behind him that never will be forgotten

My buir

I missed him

Eleni Skirata's thoughts diary (A fanfiction in progress) Part 1 and 2 ready :)

Part 2

[tiptapricot]

Alright. Finally getting my thoughts together about Mando S3 episode 6! Forewarning this is a very critical and disappointed view on the episode, however I do try and be as nuanced and explanatory as I can, as just like with the rest of this season there is so much potential, so much I almost love, but it’s just not carried through or is handled in a way that makes me confused and frustrated.

This is somewhat organized, but not overly edited, so if things jump around a bit or if there’s typos, excuse me. Other than that, let’s get into it.

So this episode brings a first two seasons side quest vibe to stuff, which personally I enjoyed as I think those side quests (while many ppl see them as filler/a distraction from the main plot) are more ab exploring our characters under different stressors and circumstances and seeing how they act/react as a result. The design for Plazir was gorgeous and intriguing, and it was fun to see Jack Black and Lizzo and Christopher Lloyd. Similarly to a lot of people I had a “HEY I KNOW THOSE GUYS” moment, and it made me smile and laugh.

But then you get into the plot and I just. I was so icked out and uncomfortable and baffled at how it was handled. Plazir is, as it’s set up, an absolute fucking dystopia. Star Wars has never been good with its droid issues, something that always makes me extremely mad and uncomfortable, but beyond the Solo story, I think this may be one of the worst handlings of those issues yet.

I’ll be sharing ideas with the video “The Traegedy of Droids” by Pop Culture Detective pretty consistently in passing here, so please check it out if you haven’t or aren’t aware of what I’m talking about with “the issue with how SWs handles droids.”

The mini plot of this episode is, in summary, our main protagonists helping to carry out a targeted physical oppression of a droid revolution in order to maintain the droid’s enslaved class status and allow the citizens to continue living on free labor. Not only that, but the revolution and fighting back is revealed to not be a choice, but a drugged reaction from an evil human source. The droid bar literally called The Resistor is not, in fact, an underground place for droids to find community and power and push back (despite the fact that it proves they have off time and desires for relaxation and comraderie) but a place for our mains to be reminded that droids actually just love being an enslaved class, and that oh yes these violent push backs actually make them look bad, and what if they’re forced not to work anymore? No they care about their oppressors and couldn’t imagine fighting back. Action like that has to be forced out of them by humans and is unnatural to their regular existence.

And none of this is framed in the dystopian way it should be. Plazir and it’s leaders and citizens are not framed or presented in a negative light, and the moral is not put on helping the droids to not be the forced labor class for a whole planet. The interesting and terrible ideas presented are taken at face value of how the ruling class sees it, and we as the audience are meant to root for Din and Bo as they chase after a droid Din harassed into fighting back, who is running for its life and defending itself, who they kill. We are meant to be happy when they shoot it, feel triumph, see these outbursts the same way those on Plazir/our mains do. We are meant to see droids as both the enemy and as rightfully subservient.

And that’s. Absolutely fucking wild? Similarly to Solo and L3, I cannot fathom the thought process going through the writers brains while setting up a plot that focuses on droid revolution and freedom, only to treat it as a joke, or to end up condemning droids to a fate worse than death/to a content slave class. And all of this, again, our protagonists go along with.

Bo and Din never once question droid rights or sentience, never once go “oh hey we should actually help these guys out.” They stop the uprisings, Lizzo knights Grogu, and the story goes along its way like it was just an unimportant side quest, and not a nightmare. The mains don’t care, the writers don’t care, the world is telling the viewer not to care.

This is exemplified, unfortunately enough, with the use of the cameos. That reaction of “Omg haha! Lizzo! Jack Black! Mr Lloyd!” add to the comedic/trope-y framing of this episode. The acting was great, this is not against the actors present, I was happy to see them, but their presence added to the episode’s unserious/comedic/don’t think about it too much tone. Seeing celebrities we like takes the focus off of the content of the plot and onto “Haha people I like!” And that sours their presence for me.

And like. Droid stuff not being serious has always been around, with protagonists playing into/joking about droid oppression right from the original trilogy, but hating droids has within the mandalorian itself been built up to be unreasonable and a flaw.

Din is droid-racist. That’s been part of his character since the start, and it has been something he has grown with, that the story has attempted to show him working against despite his prejudices. Yes, he is not over his hate for droids, trusting a few will not change his views on them all, and his actions still being violent and prejudiced this episode are not totally out of character. But he’s been shown to be working on that, and the issue comes with the fact that these actions are not seen as an issue past being impulsive. Kicking a line of workers until one lashes out, saying “if they’re programmed right they shouldn’t mind,” threatening to kill a droid bartender, not questioning forced labor, being excited to kill droids, are all framed as funny or correct or just regular “fighting before talking” type characterization, and not as the deeply flawed and bigoted actions they are.

I’ve seen people in fandom saying “well it’s because of his battle droid PTSD” “din still hates droids that wasn’t resolved” “he’s not just going to be fine around the droids that killed his parents” and like. Yeah, sure. But that doesn’t excuse the actions. They should still be seen as a big fucking issue, as him acting grossly out of line and holding up a “one bad experience means the whole group is bad forever” mentality. Not just a character quirk or something funny or an excuse. The best I can liken it to atm is racism from war vets against the group they fought against. You may be able to understand the distrust and trauma associations but hey guess what! Doesn’t excuse the racism/xenophobia/etc.! But the plot and story framing sure does, and it’s been effective, because the fandom has been doing the same thing too! And it’s. Wild to me!

Like I get many people don’t think about stuff, because again that’s how the world frames it, but you gotta? You gotta see the messages being pushed here?

And from a narrative standpoint you can’t just introduce a storyline like this without dealing with the implications it therefore burdens the story with discussing. Otherwise you end up with something reductive, trivializing, and at its core really really ideologically gross, which is what we got here.

This also doesn’t even touch on:

—The further use of the amnesty program in a way that doesn’t fully dig into the messed up results or the irl parallels to operation paperclip

—Ugnaughts being the only organic labor class we see besides those monitoring security, another group that’s framed as loving to work on the things the ruling class don’t want to, and also living in the dark underground

—The implications of direct democracy and non-militant societies being seen as weak and unreasonable

—Leaders finding loopholes in their laws to intact violence into a revolting class without having to answer for the repercussions of rule breaking

Mainly because I don’t have the brain to unpack all of it. But hey! Just shows how much they introduced with no real thought of how big a can of worms it opened up from a political and social perspective. Something that while a constant in Star Wars at this point never makes it alright. It’s lazy and shows the underlying racist/capitalist politics running through most main pieces of the universe, of which this episode I’d say is probably Mando’s most outright example of. (There are exceptions, Andor being a huge one, but lord is that an exception with everything around it)

And like in concept a neo-noir detective story/procedural with the mando cast sounds awesome, that’s one of my favorite genres, but this was just good old fashioned copaganda and race/class fumble episode with no real nuance, point, or lingering effects on our characters and their view of droids. When I’m fully able to say Detroit become human did a better job handling the ideas of robot sentience/freedom/uprising/changing sides, I think you need to take a good hard look at your story.

So just. That’s that part of the episode. And that’s already so much, but then we have the ending/it’s ties into the overall plot.

From the start we get no real explanation for why Din is with Bo and no one else, what the fallout of the armorer’s decision and reveal of Bo’s place in things had on the covert or on Din and Bo. We just jump in. Then you have Din and Bo showing their individual leading strengths in the episode, the balance between diplomacy and action, heavily implying some joint ruling need, or even showing Din finally showing leadership skills.

But then we get to the final scene with the Axe and Bo fight, and I’ll say I loved that combat! Beat each other up! It was great and I think shows their competence and the statement that fighting makes in mando culture, as well as asserting Bo’s place leading her group. But then we also get two really fucking stupid things.

The first is Axe saying Din isn’t a real mando because of blood even though that? Has never really been a staple of the culture??? This opens up an idea that the night owls have different views on Mandalorian culture than the larger consensus that understands it as a religion, a culture, a people, but not a homogenous group with direct biological descent. Foundlings are huge! So where is this coming from? What’s the background there?

It muddies up a lot of character stuff, culture stuff, and the analogies Mandalorian culture has to real life groups like the Jewish community, various Indigenous and colonized communities, etc. As with so much of this season, Mandalorian culture and politics is begging to be explored, to be fleshed out and dug into in a deeper way than it has been already, and even with new ideas the writers decide to use, it’s given almost no focus. It’s frustrating and disheartening.

Second, ofc, is the Darksaber hand off. I have talked previously about one of the largest issues this season being the writers wrapping up Din’s arcs and plots with no real focus or fanfare, and this was another slap in the face in that regard. Officially, every single important thing from the end of S2 has been wrapped up either in a spin off series that shouldn’t even have had sm Din focus, or in the second episode of the third season. Everything that poised Din for a huge character arc at the end of season 2, at a fundamental change and exploration in himself, has been tossed aside. And it makes no sense to do that. So let’s go through them each!

1. Grogu. Throughout the first two seasons Din and Grogu’s relationship was a focus. It was about Din breaking rules and getting into danger to save this kid, his drive to protect him, to connect him with his people, and then to save him from Gideon. We get that line “He is more important to me than you will ever know,” and then Din has to give him away. This sets up exploring how Grogu has changed him, how that relationship has affected them both, how Din now operates without him.

But then he was reunited with Grogu relatively easily, and there has been no focus on how the newfound understanding of Grogu’s importance to Din affects their relationship now. He hasn’t even recognized himself as Grogu’s father yet, and there’s been no real bonding moments past some in the first two episodes and the background shallow cute moments in others. There’s been no side interactions of Din asking about what Grogu learned, or treasuring having him back, or reflecting on his place as a parent, or making sure he doesn’t lose him again. In episode 6 Din even leaves Grogu with strangers he’s just met for the entire episode and that has no fallout or recognition, despite one of them being an ex-imperial.

2. Breaking the creed. Throughout the first two seasons, again, Din’s faith and his adherence to the CotW’s beliefs are a huge focus. From episode one and on we get variations of the question “Why don’t you take off your helmet?” “Just take off your helmet” “don’t mandos never take their helmets off?” And we see Din is willing to die rather than break that, rather than not be Mandalorian anymore in his eyes. But he does anyway. For Grogu. A testament to not only his growth because of him, but to his commitment to Grogu over all else.

And he is in some ways hopeless because of that. He willingly takes off his helmet again to show Grogu his face before he says goodbye, because he is all Din has left at that point, all that matters in the moment.

But, of course, there is no lasting effect. Bathing in the waters, built up to be a season long arc, was aborted to being finished in episode two with relatively extreme ease, and even then, had no lingering focus on what being redeemed meant for Din. There was no questioning or clinging to faith, no discussions of how much this meant for him, no lingering on the bathing (because it was turned into a rescue action scene for Bo’s story!), no discussion of how being accepted back and cleansed affected him. One of the largest parts of the character since his introduction is. A footnote.

3. The darksaber/ruler of Mandalore story. This one’s just. Nothing. Also resolved retroactively in episode 2, and with no plot presence otherwise. To start this out, no I didn’t think Din was going to have this great rise to being Mand’alor, that was never really where the plot was going in my eyes. But no matter where it should’ve gone or what it should’ve been, it should’ve been something. Yes! He doesn’t want it! So show us why, show us what that responsibility or implication means to him, why his sect of culture doesn’t care about it, why he doesn’t believe himself to be the one to rule or unite. Make him giving it up feel as earned as if he’d kept it. This is one of the most frustrating aspects of this episode and a final straw in my vendetta against the writers.

The dark saber doesn’t even make an appearance between episodes two and six, it’s that unimportant. There is no conversation with Paz or the Armorer, who both know Din has it. There is no discussion about what it means with Jedi vs Mando history, or with Bo Katan about her history with it. This therefore makes Din having it pointless. It did nothing beyond maybe some combat scenes and the brief Butt up against Paz in BoBF. Another case of more actual plot engagement being in BoBF than the main show. There was no point for it to change hands to Din, because him having it changed nothing, made no one grow, made no one think. It affected Bo, which I’ll touch on again in a bit, but the story blooming there could’ve come around by many other means and was not tied to Din at all.

But before I dig into that aspect, the amount of times I’ve seen “Din never wanted the saber that’s why hes finding an easy loophole to give it up” “Din likes being a side character” stuff is so!!! Like!!! Yes! He doesn’t want it he doesn’t want action and responsibility and he doesn’t care about it but he is not making choices he is not real he is being written lazily! This is the writers not wanting to engage with their own character that they built up and created and set the arcs in motion for.

A show can have multiple mains, can shift character focus, but “The Mandalorian” at its inception was referring to Din Djarin and there was no precident for that focus to completely shift. This isn’t a show that changes protags every season, he used to be a shape in the title, is on the merch and the branding. And if there is meant to be a protagonist shift it has to be gradual, and to still involve his development in the impact on that other character. The explanation of “Well it’s called The Mandalorian not Din Djarin” just makes me really mad cause yeah? It is? But it’s also called Star Wars and not Luke Skywalker but we still understand he is the main protagonist, even if other characters develop and are present alongside him.

And there’s no excuse to sideline Din, because the truth is he does have growth to get, he does have arcs to explore, the only reason he’s so flat and has nothing to work towards right now is because the writers threw that away. Specifically in ways that did not make sense from a character or writing perspective.

And why is that? Because they wanted to write someone else, they wanted to write Bo Katan.

Which is exciting! I love Bo as a character from what I’ve seen of her. She is complex and flawed and has a deeply fucked up past that’s intrinsically connected to Mandalore and it’s future. That is a fascinating character to work with, and I don’t mind her being more present in Mando as it tracks for the goal of bringing Mandalorians together. But! This plot is not doing her justice either.

Throughout this season Bo has been dragged along through the shallows in her own journey. There has been no discussion of her past, of Death Watch’s terrorism and torture and murder, of Satine, of her several past attempts to lead Mandalore, of her history with the civil wars and with clan Viszla and with so much more. Which is wild, because you’d think a season which has chosen to focus on her would? Give a shit about her? Would actually engage with the character she is and what she brings to the table?

Instead she’s been handed every plot point, reduced to a girlboss leader, and her rise to getting the saber again is not only forced with no real discussion or nuance, but she’s once again been given it on a technicality. Just as Din giving up the saber is not a decision and shift earned by development, Bo getting it again isn’t either.

And as I mentioned earlier, she was affected by Din getting the saber in that it led to her people leaving her, and led her to question things, but it being Din having the saber means nothing. The same thing would’ve happened had anyone else gotten the saber, or had it been vented off into space or lost or hidden or whatever. By giving it to a specific character, that begs for interaction over that ownership, for discussion and reflection and connection with that character.

And yet there has been nothing. Bo and Din have had some good interactions, yes, but the development the show seems to want for Bo, seems to want the audience to be rooting for and going along with, is not being shown.

To make all of this more basic, the issue with this episode and this whole season thus far, is that it refuses to engage with its own ideas to a fault. It doesn’t want to get its hands messy, doesn’t want to untie the complicated and fascinating and fucked up knot it’s tied for itself. Instead it’s slicing through all of those Gordian style and leaving us to wonder about what might’ve been, about what the story seems to want to be.

I love a lot of the concepts this season, I love what it could be. I love the characters and the world and the religion and the politics, but I have to actually see what is set up, what is set in motion, what is built, to feel like I am watching the show I loved at the start.

And though it’s not as relevant to this episode, it feels relevant here: This should’ve been a Mandalorian politics season, not a new republic politics season.

Yes, they are intertwined, but at the moment the new republic development feels like a main focus, meant to set things up for further installments in the franchise or retroactively explain pst choices, and the mandalorian culture a side focus, and this has caused a detriment to both. Neither gets explored in their full complexity and nuance, and the story feels unfocused and weirdly disjointed as a result.

I’ve seen people upset by the great divide or presence of fandom negativity lately and I get that, but I feel there needs to be an understanding that people aren’t hating just to hate, this is a serious disappointment with the tanking quality of the show and it’s lack of commitment to itself. When something doesn’t deliver on what it markets itself to be, what the writing lays a basis for, that breaks trust and engagement and enjoyment, and leads to people being pissed. It happens. You can still enjoy the show, while also recognizing there is a boatload of valid criticism and issues and flawed messages that are making people uncomfortable, disinterested, and angry.

And having expectations doesnt devalue those criticisms either. I’ve seen a lot of talk of like “you wanted it to be something it’s not” and while that’s true in some cases, I had no solid ideas for this season beyond… what it showed it was going to do. And I am trying to engage with the ideas it is presenting. Again, I like the hypothetical arc at play, but the execution just. Isn’t it for me. The writing quality isn’t good and isn’t smooth and as I hope I’ve laid out, isn’t living up to its own potential or ideas.

So. Yeah.

I just want a show to be what it was begging to be, what it set itself up to be, what the characters and plot threads are wanting to be, but aren’t able to reach in their entirety. I want stuff that makes sense, that makes me think, that isn’t bigoted and lazy and frustrating. But I haven’t been getting that. And that really sucks.

TLDR: a train wreck in motion, but it was carrying cargo I would’ve loved to see.

[antianakin]

Do you think you’d like Mandos if they were more like Vikings? I think I heard from somewhere that’s what they were based off of. If they were anything like the TV show Vikings I would be behind them 100%. Imagine if they made Boba more like Ragnar instead of the Feloni version.

I can't quite tell if you're asking me if I'd like Mandalorians if they were written to be more like actual real life vikings or if they were writing more like the way the characters are written in the fictional TV show Vikings, but my answer is going to be similar either way. I don't know enough about either regular viking culture or the way the show Vikings chose to depict them to really be able to answer either way.

The thing I think you're remembering is that I believe it's been said that Lucas chose to bring in Mandalorians as a concept into TCW but changed them up to be more like "pacifist Vikings" (which is why they look the way they do in TCW) because he found that an intriguing concept despite how little it had to do with the way Mandalorians had been depicted in Legends up until then. And that concept mostly seems to come across as like "a group of people who were known for being very violent and doing a lot of pillaging and raiding and fighting in their past but it got to the point where they were so violent that they nearly destroyed themselves and their new leader has enforced a pacifist lifestyle in an effort to keep them from going completely extinct." I don't know that it necessarily took a lot from actual viking culture or traditions beyond that.

The reason I dislike the Mandos is more about the way they're written and the way fans tend to interpret them (especially in relation to the Jedi) than anything else. There's also the issue of like... the contradictions between Legends Mandos, Lucas's Mandos, and Disney/Favroni canon Mandos. People have tried REALLY REALLY HARD to fit in Legends Mando stuff with Lucas's canon Mandos, which leads to this idea that while Lucas shows Mandos as like... very black and white with Death Watch being the more traditional violent version and Satine being the modern pacifist version, there is actually some sort-of in-between that can exist. This is where you get the "True Mandalorians" and characters like Jaster and Jango and even newer characters like Din and, to some degree, Bo-Katan. There's this idea that you can be a violent person who works in something like bounty hunting and still be a good honorable person. Din is someone who does not CARE who he kills so long as he gets paid to do it when we first meet him (his whole catchphrase is "I can bring you in warm or I can bring you in cold" which tells his marks that he doesn't care if he has to kill them to get the job done), he's even initially fine with child trafficking being a part of his job description and BARELY ends up turning around to rescue Grogu after he's already been paid. And while I understand that this can make for some interesting character work and that a lot of people really enjoy the more morally ambiguous nature of this kind of character, these flaws and nastier choices often get brushed under the rug by their fans to try to portray them as better people than they are.

And of course, this often also ends up leading people to represent these characters, these "True Mandos" as the epitome of what a person should be. That these are people who truly understand honor and love and family, often as a direct contrast to the Jedi specifically. Even though these are people who hunt and kill others FOR A LIVING and are still choosing their leaders based on who can fight well enough to acquire one specific weapon. This is still a culture based primarily around violence, towards each other and towards the rest of the world. This doesn't mean these characters cant' be INTERESTING or ENJOYABLE, but too many people sit there and act like Mandos, especially "True" Mandos, are some sort-of mystical better than everyone else beings instead of the IMMENSELY flawed people that they are who would honestly be much better off if they were more like the Jedi.

This is one of the reasons I initially liked Sabine so much in Rebels, because we see how she has to learn a LOT of Jedi lessons about patience and mercy and sacrifice from Kanan that she's able to then apply to her Mandalorian heritage so that she can recognize which parts of their traditions are worth holding on to (the armor that's been passed down for generations and holds a lot of spiritual meaning regarding connections to their ancestors) and which are not (killing your enemies instead of showing mercy, being forced to be a leader just because she happens to be wielding this one specific weapon even though she's not ready or interested in the position). Notice that the things worth keeping about her culture are the things that are specifically NOT VIOLENT IN NATURE.

I think people also regularly overestimate how important and competent Mandos even are, True, New, or otherwise. We ROUTINELY see Mandos get their asses handed to them, by Jedi, by the Empire, by Rebels. There seems to be this pervasive idea that Mandos could change the course of the galaxy, that Mandos are the BEST fighters in the galaxy and if only they were around to help, they would be able to beat everyone else, and it just. Isn't true. They're good at BEING VIOLENT, sure, but this doesn't actually equate to being a better fighter than anyone else. They're so good at being violent that they keep just... exterminating their own people out of sheer stupidity to the point that they're not a real threat to ANYBODY. They destroy their own planet to the point that it's practically uninhabitable, they refuse to have a civil discussion with a group that is clearly outgunning them and then act surprised when this ends up with all of them fucking dead, they make themselves neutral in a galactic civil war and then act surprised when that means trade dries up, they lead two Sith lords and FOUR crime organizations onto their planet and then act surprised when they end up ousted out of their own leadership and instead accidentally end up with a Sith lord as a leader because he beheaded the Mando guy. Mandos IN GENERAL are just reckless, irresponsible, arrogant assholes, no matter which flavor they come in. They can't even help THEMSELVES let alone the rest of the galaxy.

And to some degree, I think that's part of the point of the Mandos in Lucas's canon, that they're just... total flops most of the time. They're an intentional foil to the Jedi in that they are a culture that RELIES on violence as a cornerstone of their behavior and worldview and never see peace as an option whereas the Jedi relies on peace always being an option and violence is just a last resort as a recognition that many other people don't share their desire for peace. The whole point of Mandos in Lucas's canon and even in Rebels to some degree is that their way of life is BAD and not one that SHOULD be preserved the way that it is. If the Mandos don't figure out how to change, they ARE going to just die out, not because anyone sees them as a threat and wants them eliminated, but because their own arrogance and stupidity is just inevitably going to cause their own end. The Mandos are a CAUTIONARY TALE more than anything else.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that isn't true about the vikings in the Vikings show. You're clearly rooting for them, so I have to assume that you don't view these characters and the culture they're representing as a cautionary tale about what NOT to do or be like. And that's fine, that show is clearly doing something very different with its story and the themes and messages it's sending than Lucas was doing with Star Wars. And I think shows like The Mandalorian are trying to do something similar by making their sort-of violently morally ambiguous character and his culture something you root for rather than a cautionary tale. Which... fine, in the vacuum of the story we had within the first two seasons of the show, that worked out okay. But as it's expanded outward into the greater Star Wars saga, this has become more and more of an issue because the Mandos AREN'T characters you root for in regular Star Wars. They just aren't, especially the variety that Din and Bo-Katan tend to represent. They're usually villains or antagonists for the more genuinely heroic characters, there to either be an obstacle or to represent the consequence of selfish choices. But Filoni and Favreau are SO insistent on making the Mandos the heroes AND on making them like the Legends Mandos they grew up on that these messages are getting flattened and lost entirely.

So I guess my answer to this question is that no, I don't necessarily think that the Mandos would be more enjoyable if they were more like the vikings, either the real ones or the fictional ones, because they just straight up aren't the heroes of this story and their entire culture as per Lucas's canon, the one based around violence as a first answer to everything, is intended to be a cautionary tale rather than something we root for. I think that the Mando culture as we know it isn't something that can be glorified and romanticized and still feel like it remains within the themes of Star Wars.

[isagrimorie]

I really love House of R's breakdown of the Ahsoka show. Listening to the breakdown I like their point that maybe the reason for the gap in knowledge about Ahsoka and Sabine's relationship is that this is a mystery that both old fans and new watchers would see together.

I do think we will get flashbacks to the moments of Ahsoka first taking on Sabine as an apprentice to the end why she walked away from Sabine.

Another thing I realized about the table setting in the first two episodes is that they're setting up that Ahsoka show might be set more in the unknown regions outside of their current galaxy.

I actually like that we're getting more into different lore for Ahsoka, more alien, more mystic and that by going to the Unknown Regions we might get to avoid the oft criticism about 'always returning to Tatooine'.

But most of all, I love that we might be exploring different kinds of Force Users, and the show might end up touching on an ancient society that predates both the Night Sisters and the Jedi/Sith.

But also speaking of Lore, I love how Baylon Skoll and Shin Hati were named after the two wolves from Norse mythology.

Skoll is the name of the wolf Who follows the shining priest Into the desolate forest, And the other is Hati, Hróðvitnir’s son, Who chases the bright bride of the sky

= the Eddic poem Grímnismál

And that Morgan Elspeth is a confirmed Night Sister. Night Sisters of Dathomir are often called Witches because of how the Night Sisters utilize the Force like magic.

In the Clone Wars, Grevious massacred the Night Sisters.

Ahsoka's had dealings with a Night Sister before -- Asajj Ventress and Darth Maul and Savage Oppres were also from Dathomir.

But also, Shin seems to have some reservations about Morgan after she learns Morgan is a Night Sister.

I also love the sense that Ahsoka is more mystical and science fantasy than the other shows. This show doesn't shy away that it's about space wizards and space knights.

Sometimes I feel current Star Wars (and some fans) are ashamed that Star Wars is basically a show about sword and sorcery but in space.

I also really like that if The Mandalorian is a Space Western, Ahsoka is very much the Space Wizard Samurai and Din's aesthetic (or the Mandos in the Mandalorian) is more like Space Cowboys and Vikings, Sabine represents the Japanese-flavored aesthetic of her part of Mandalore.

But also I love that the lead character is the grumpy samurai master, usually in anime/manga we see stories more from the point of view of the student seeking the master to teach them once again.

Very much borrowing from the influences of Samurai movies. Also, Kanan has done this (in other Western media-- Zuko and Iroh from Avatar and Korra from Legend of Korra).

For both Kanan and Sabine, this signifies commitment -- Sabine has mentioned before that she kept her hair short because it helps her wear her Mandalorian helmet.

Sabine letting her hair grow long meant she has set aside her Mandalorian heritage, she's been in a holding pattern, possibly since the day Mandalore fell (again). It's possibly another reason why Sabine is so reluctant to celebrate.

Yes, she helped save Lothal but what does that matter if she couldn't even save her own homeworld?

Almost every character in this show lost their families, their home worlds, and their people.

I also like how Ahsoka the show is also about the Good guys winning the war, they've all been busy fighting the war that now there's peace what do Ahsoka, a soldier who has been fighting since she was a child, and Sabine, a child who is from a culture that reveres war and warriors, do now?

Hera is the only one with a clear idea of what she wants to do -- and that's to build a better world and tomorrow for her son.

But for Ahsoka and Sabine?

I feel like Ahsoka and Sabine's theme music is Wait for It:

Life doesn't discriminate Between the sinners and the saints It takes and it takes and it takes And we keep living anyway We rise and we fall and we break And we make our mistakes And if there's a reason I'm still alive When so many have died Then I'm willin' to— Wait for it...

[short-wooloo]

I've seen a few posts about how mandos hate child endangerment...

Guys

That's fanon

There is no indication that mandalorians hate endangering children anymore than any other group, culture, individual or responsible/sensible parent

If anything the opposite might be true, in both canon and legends it seems that mandalorians (the warriors anyways) consider a certain amount of endangerment to be acceptable-if not tacitly encouraged-in child rearing

[jedimasterbailey]

filoni stans just don't quit huh?

"people are mad sabine has force powers because it's badly hidden misogyny-"

oh here we go again as if many people haven't already explained in depth how she's been character assassinated.

heads up everyone, if we don't like filoni's stupid ass decisions and contrived writing it must always be because of sexism, racism and whichever excuse stans use to deflect criticism. this is what happens when we spoil their fun. some of them are sounding like last jedi stans who screamed misogyny and racism when fans rightfully pointed out the badly written script, the way kylo almost took over rey's story and the way poc were mistreated. love how they yell sexism while glossing over how filoni made ahsoka's importance all about a man in this show.

sabine was already a good character in rebels without needing to be force sensitive. she had her own cultural identity as a mandalorian. guess none of that matters now, she gets to follow a rote padawan story that makes no sense for her and wasn't even properly developed. all because filoni is far up his own ass about his special mando jedi ocs while disrespecting established jedi characters. good lord, i'm glad this season is over.

NO THEY DO NOT ANON!!!! And that’s the thing that drives me crazy about Feloni Stan’s is I think his project promote bad behavior. There is so much racism and sexism in these projects that everyone is more than happy to turn a blind eye too. I, on the other hand, cannot condone any of it and I refuse to make excuses for it and I will say exactly what’s on my mind even if others are afraid to because this is ridiculous. There are so many talented writers and minds out there who can continue the Star Wars legacy without going low and create inspiring content that can generate hope in future generations to come but nope we’re still gonna keep ignorant people in high places and produce more crap.

And yes Sabine should have stayed true to who she was. There was no need for this Jedi nonsense.

[mamuzzy]

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY OPPOSING KAL SKIRATA part 2.

HIS FAMILY FROM THE PAST - Continuation

I've got a couple of response from @mysticaltora8276 and I decided that Ilippi's and Kal's relationship deserves another round to talk about because that's what the original post was about.

What you will find here now: - Dissecting Kal's and Ilippi's relationship even more but now with quotes from the books. - Me confirming the existing misogyny integrated into Karen Traviss' mando lore (I never doubted. I just wanted to find my own answers in this debate instead of choosing existing sides). - No. I still don't hate Kal. You can still love a character while not agreeing with their actions.

More under the cut.

One of my interesting observation about the antis and "critical thinkers" that while they think they are protecting the women of Repcomm with claw and blood, they are the ones who write them off as "cardboard characters with no soul and own will".

Starting from Ilippy. I thought I emphasised enough how badass was for her to divorce from Kal when she felt she can't adjust to this lifestyle, and wanted to protect her children from the warrior's life.

And it suddenly clicked.

Holy shit, it's 2024. Divorcing from your husband is not a big deal anymore!!!! CAN YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS??? O_____O

(this wasn't a sarcasm.)

Today, divorcing from your husband when you are abused, or neglected, you fear for your children, or bored or you realize after years of marriage that you just don't click is totally a normal thing today and doesn't come with social stigma anymore (in better places). You can even get an official distancing-order.

But people often forget that it wasn't always like this. And remember when these books were written. Hard Contact came out in 2004.

I can't talk about other countries, only the post-soviet ones, but in the 80's-90's, it was still considered shameful for women to initiate divorce from their husband, no matter whether she was treated bad, the whole neighbourhood knew she was treated bad, relatives very much aware that the wife was treated bad. They blamed women for not putting up the whims of the husband. Blamed by women and men as well.

Hungarian poetry is actually full of ballads, how the wives were forced to kill their husbands to save themselves from abusive relationships or forced marriage because divorce wasn't an option: it was, but then you were shamed by your whole community. Shamed by women and men as well.

One of the other thing, that really changed is the time when you get married. Today is also considered normal to marry and have a kid at age 30+, while couples of from my parents generation usually married at age 18-19. And Kal and Ilippi also married rather young, which is also the part of Karen Traviss's mandalorian culture, but can be a mirror about old generational couples of real life.

I looked up the definition of misogyny (my own experience is one thing but I'm not going to traumadump here):

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. It is a form of sexism that can keep women at a lower social status than men, thus maintaining the social roles of patriarchy. An example of misogyny is violence against women, which includes domestic violence and, in its most extreme forms, misogynist terrorism and femicide. Misogyny also often operates through sexual harassment, coercion, and psychological techniques aimed at controlling women, and by legally or socially excluding women from full citizenship. In some cases, misogyny rewards women for accepting an inferior status. (From wikipedia)

In this definition, IN OUR HUMAN EARTHLING STANDARDS keeping Ilippi in lower social status as a wife in a secluded place where she was expected to raise their children and wait for her husband without any other option (they lived in the middle of nowhere, no neighbours, no cities around for her to spend time or work or getting friends), yes, it is misogyny.

Only Ilippi had options: embracing the mandalorian culture and became a warriorwife, asking Kal to teach her, maybe joining him later.

ASSUMPTION HERE: I don't think Kal really knew how to handle a non-mando girl. I don't think they really talked about their future as a mando couple. Ilippi worked as a waitress and probably at that time it was a good idea to be a wife of a mercenary. Two young people met, fell in love, and later they realized, their expectations hadn't met. I don't think Ilippi was really interested becoming a fighterwife just as Kal wasn't interested leaving the mercenary life and his own culture behind. But also: here is the confimation of mando couples marrying young from Order 66. But also that Ilippi first found Kal and his profession attractive in her eyes.

Their serious arguments started when the possibility came up that Kal wanted to bring the children along with him.

This is a snippet from True Colors when they talk about the responsibilties of a mandowife.

Ordo is making a (rather sexist) joke, so how reilable this information can be is very much debatable. If he says it's nothing hard for a jedi, than it is probably very hard and tiresome for a civilian like Ilippi.

SPECULATION: I can imagine that sometimes Mandowife gets up, now it's her turn to go out and make some money and the husband stays home with the children. -> But because the conversation above it can be interpreted many ways, it's hard to say what exactly was their duty.

Before you kill me for using mandowife here mandoWIFE there instead of riduur...

One of my problem with Karen Traviss' Mandalorian lore, that the whole culture and social expectations were supposed to be completely gender neutral. Can you handle yourself as a warrior? You are a mando. That's it. But here, there are inbuilt gender expectations and roles. -> By the definition of the misogyny above, this is one, because mandalorian women are still bound by the stereotypes of the patriarchal role of a women in a heteronormative family.

Ok, back to Ilippi.

Now this is the first scene Ilippi first mentioned in Triple Zero. I fail to see how she was treated bad by the narrative or Kal or Jango.

Ilippi decided this life is not for her. Ilippi didn't wanted the mandalorian life for her and for their children. She didn't want to assimiliate. She realized these people are wackos and she has to get out as soon as possible before Kal really take their children to war. And she did.

This is how their divorce went (Order 66)

Ilippi was never deprived from choices. She literally took the kids when Kal was away and Kal returned to an empty home. If she was really held in lower social status, and her rights and feelings weren't respected at all, Kal could have go and forced her to come back without her consent. Or simply do honor-killing like many cultures and religions do in real life where misogyny isn't just making sexist jokes (like the Ordo conversation), but the whole family will actually hunt you down for leaving your husband.

Kal respected this choice. Does he deserve a praise for it? Probably not. This is how it should be: respecting others.

But also this confirms that Kal never stopped supporting financially his family.

And lastly I wanted to add this one because I really loved this conversation:

Kamino was the point were Kal actually cut himself from his family entirely. Not before. Kal had a chance to reconnect with his biological children when he got the news from Jango (though it's debatable, my speculation is that Kal would have been killed if he had left Kamino before the contract's end). He choose the Nulls and the commandos under his care.

But this is also interesting that in the Mando culture when your wife is divorcing from you, you, the husband are to blame: a switched-mirror to the formerly mentioned real life example of how divorcing from your husband is shameful as a woman. If you fail as a parent, as a husband, you fail as a human being.

ABOUT THE CHILD SOLDIER DEBATE: if you need the author to spoonfeed you with the narrative that explicitly condems the existence of childsoldiers, the problem is not with the media, the problem is with you.

IN CONCLUSION: Ilippy is still a fucking badass. Kal loved his family. Kal respected Ilippy and her choice. Real life misogyny integrated into the mando culture spotted which is - obviously - affected Kal too.

HOOOOooooooOOOooOoooOoly shit, that was a ride. Because I partially touched to topic about his sons, I think my next post will be about Tor, Ijaat and Ruusaan.

If you actually read through all this blurb, in one hand KUDOS TO YOU, on the other hand, you can expect something like this from me when I actually start to my blogging about the books.