may i ask your opinions on what ivan is truly like ?
( without pretending to be someone or something else entirely ? )
Okay !! Finally back to answering asks !! Once again, please be mindful of the fact that these are mostly my own personal thoughts. Always take them with a grain of salt.
The thing is, Ivan is an incredibly difficult character. He was written to be complex and multi-faceted, literally having more than just one "face". His actions almost always have another layer of depth to them and he tends to contradict himself, further complicating people's perception of him. It's not easy to pin him down, and that was exactly the intent. They made sure that the viewers wouldn't be able to fully grasp his emotions.
( I find this fact rather funny, because in one of the behind posts QMENG herself says that sometimes Ivan does things she cannot understand. The creators just allow Ivan to be complicated. He is what he is, and while there are undoubtedly reasons for it, the full truth remains unknown to us. )
Regardless, this is what I personally think.
Ivan seems to define himself by his imperfection, so much so that his actions and perspectives are influenced by his deep self-hatred. It's established that Ivan is "lacking" something, he is fundamentally different from others. Ivan builds himself around this since he literally has nothing else. He defines himself by his lack of definition. The fact that he is different and needs to be "cured". Ivan grows attached to the qualities that he "lacks", drawn to the biggest personality in the garden like a moth to a flame. He is fascinated, not envious, and I think that says a lot about him. He places those qualities on a pedestal, believing them to be so much better than himself. He feels that it's something he will never achieve or deserve, something he can't have.
It's interesting that the only time we can pin Ivan as "envious" is not when he's faced with his opposite, but with his parallel. Someone he believed to be just like him.
One thing about Ivan is that he is (unsurprisingly) lonely. Since his entire life is defined by this feeling of separation from others (either literally through the segyein's selection or more intangibly through his mental and emotional difference from others), Ivan feels constantly isolated. Nobody has been able to properly understand him, which further worsens the feeling that something is wrong with him.
When he finally finds someone that he can relate with, it brings him a sense of relief. Note that when Ivan refers to (what he perceives as) their similarity, he uses derogatory language. Twisted. This is how he views himself.
( translation is by @sorrowcure ! )
Compared to his interactions with others, his confrontation with Sua is uncomfortably honest. Ivan is most critical with the person he relates to, further emphasizing how deeply critical he is of himself. Ivan is not envious of Till or Mizi, who are so fundamentally different from him, he's envious of Sua because she is just like him yet has something that he doesn't.
It may feel unfair for the one person you saw yourself in to accomplish something so out of your reach. Her love was reciprocated in full, adored and revered by the person she loved most. They weren't the same, after all. It reinforces what he always believed to be true: he was alone.
( translation by @/oreganocactus on Twitter! )
There are many other instances of Ivan's self-deprecation and low sense of self-worth that leak into his behavior, such as down-playing himself in his interview, referring to his own feelings as "shallow", convincing himself that he was never truly cared about, etc. His deep dissatisfaction of himself rises to the surface quite often, shown in the way that he takes pride in his achievements (his work), yet cannot view himself as a person in a positive light.
INTERVIEWER: What do you think is your charm?
IVAN: I can't really think of any, because I think I have more flaws (haha),
To me, a lot of the "actual" Ivan can be seen in his younger self. It's not a complete display of what Ivan is truly like, obviously. He was a child and hadn't yet developed in certain areas. Still, it's a period in Ivan's life where he didn't mask or play up a different image. The quiet, stoic, and blunt Ivan seems to be a more genuine side of him, at least compared to his more charming persona. QMENG considered Ivan with his hair down to be "most like himself", and I think it's no coincidence that the most memorable version of Ivan with his hair down is his child self. The infamous Bowl Cut Ivan.
With this fact in mind, I also find it no coincidence that in ROUND 6, where Ivan is presented as a "perfect actor" in costume, he starts off with his hair slicked back.
And when he finally drops the mask, when he acts out of his own volition, his hair falls onto his face. Hair down, most like himself.
Another notable instance of Ivan's hair being down is the casino/karaoke room scene, which was quoted as an example for Ivan's emotional immaturity, his supposed "childishness".
There's so much to be said about Ivan, including the neurodivergent/autistic traits that have been discussed by other people in more depth (notably his difficulty in understanding/expressing certain emotions, his masking, his often misconstrued actions, etc). There's also many of Ivan's more conflicting aspects (which seem mostly confined to the patreon? so I'm not sure if they're still planning to incorporate it into the publicly official content or if it was overhauled), but I'm going to stop here because I feel like this post is already pretty random and disconnected.
The gist of it is that I don't think I can give a solid answer on what Ivan is truly like. I'm not even sure if he can answer that, as he seems to be at war with himself quite frequently. Ivan, under his charming and cheery facade, is unable to feel or express emotion in the same way other people do, which causes difficulty and struggle in many other aspects of his life. Not like the one he has is completely his anyway, but, you know.
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talks of the past - zhongli
ship: zhongli x reader
synopsis: in which the wangsheng funeral parlor’s consultant tries to restore your faith in rex lapis
notes: 1.7k words, chapter 7 of bookkeeping!verse; with ties to various chapters in the series
It was yet another day you found yourself traveling with Zhongli to Qingce Village. Objectively speaking, it was a beautiful morning. The sun was high in the sky without a cloud in sight, the birds were chirping, and the temperature was nice. Really, there shouldn’t have been anything there to get you down. And yet…
There you were walking with your head down and a faraway look in your eyes. Had you been more aware, you would’ve noticed your companion speaking a few times. You would’ve seen the concerned look in his eyes as he peered down at you. But you were lost in your thoughts, uncharacteristically troubled and insecure.
If you had noticed, you would’ve felt a bit of pity for your companion. It was not often that you were seen in such a depressed state. Really, despite your temperament, you were generally alert and sociable. He often enjoyed the banter that would come about between you two. Truly, you were a dear friend to him. That being said, it wasn’t often you shared your concerns with him. He wasn’t sure if you even would if asked.
He cleared his throat.
“First, is… there anything that’s bothering you?”
It took a few moments for you to respond, almost prompting him to ask again before you let out a long sigh.
“Zhongli,” you began, looking up to him imploringly, “Can I talk to you about something?”
He couldn’t deny the slight start of his heart that came with your question. You’ve brought up your concerns to him before, but those were often accompanied with glares and opinions regarding his financial decisions. This time, however, exhaustion was evident in your voice with dark bags under your eyes. He could not recall doing anything that’d result in your loss of sleep.
“Sure,” he began, careful to keep his wariness absent.
“It’s not a big deal,” you began in a way that implied the opposite. “I’m sure you know how much I revere Rex Lapis. Even though he passed, I still greatly respect the legacy he left behind.”
“Yes,” he replied with a nod. “You’ve mentioned this to me a few times in the past.”
A bit too many, he would add. And with your way with words, it never exactly was… pleasant. At the very least, he was relieved your lack of sleep wasn’t with anything he did as Zhongli.
“It’s just… Lately, I’ve been talking to Madam Ping in my free time, and… I feel like my faith is beginning to be shaken…”
He frowned.
“‘Shaken?’ In what way?”
“I…” You bit your lip as tears welled in your eyes. “Don’t hate me for saying this, but I…”
You hesitated.
“I’m beginning to think he was actually a complete weirdo.”
A… A weirdo?
He cleared his throat, feeling if not just a little attacked.
“In what way?”
You sighed, glancing away with your guilt-ridden eyes.
“In… in every way.”
‘Every way?’
“For instance, take into account Mora…”
Of course, it had to do with Mora.
“Well, I once heard a story that Rex Lapis created the first home out of Mora. I always thought it was metaphorical or just a silly children’s tale, but… Madame Ping confirmed it to be true. When I asked her why he chose Mora, she said it simply was because it was available. He didn’t have any deeper meaning to it.”
He frowned. Ignoring the sense of déjà vu he felt regarding this specific topic, he didn’t see any problem with his actions.
“Yes, it only makes sense. To the God of Wealth and Commerce, what material is easier to get than Mora?”
“Exactly!” You exclaimed suddenly, nearly causing him to flinch. “Only a simple-minded man would come up with such a simple-minded conclusion.”
“S-Simple-minded…”
You nodded.
“Just because he had all the access in the world to Mora didn’t mean the common folk did. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to make the first model home out of materials available to everyone?”
He coughed.
“Perhaps.”
You sniffled.
“It’d be fine if that was the only thing, but Shitou from the Jade Mystery told me that once Rex Lapis stopped by his family’s shop in the past and purchased a spoon made of fine Noctilucus Jade to sample the culinary delights of Liyue Harbor.” You buried your face in your hands. “Why would he spend that much Mora just for a simple spoon?”
“W-Well…”
“I know, I know. As the God of Wealth and Commerce, he had easy access to Mora. And I’m sure it made him happy to contribute to the wealth of Liyue Harbor’s commonfolk, but for someone who spent so much time around his people, it’s like he had no concept of his own creation’s worth! It’s shamelessly extravagant! I didn’t think he was such a wasteful person…”
In the back of his mind, Zhongli had the urge to disagree, to stand up for the good name of Rex Lapis. Really, he wasn’t so shameless as you made him out to be, at least he didn’t think he was. But before he could respond, you continued.
“That’s not all though…” you started again.
Oh no.
“A while ago, I told Meng and the Ferrylady that Rex Lapis wasn’t a self-absorbed narcissist, but…”
Oh no…
“I was talking to Sir Yun the other day of the Yun-Han Opera Troupe? I always knew that Rex Lapis enjoyed the troupe’s shows, but did you know he starred in a few of them? As a warrior, she said. And as you know, Rex Lapis is known as the Warrior God. So that means he basically played himself in operas singing songs about… himself. Can you imagine doing that? How…”
Tears came to your eyes.
“Cringe.”
He resisted the urge to clear his throat.
“Though records say he may have taken part in those operas, I can’t recall Miss Yun stating he starred as himself,” he began. “The assumption he did so is mere conjecture at best.”
That last part slipped from his tongue before he could rein it back in. You never took kindly when his opinions differed from yours, and yet… Well, perhaps he was feeling if not a little attacked. The Yun-Han Opera Troupe had a long history, after all. They certainly would not be more the wiser if some tales became embellished over the years. He thought out of all people you would be more aware of that than most.
Thankfully, much to his relief, you were. Instead of taking to anger like you usually did, you nodded obediently.
“That’s true. I hope you’re right,” you replied with a hopeful smile. “Madame Ping said that not even the great Cloud Retainer watches operas about herself. It’s too embarrassing.”
He did clear his throat that time.
“I suppose not everyone enjoys hearing tales of their past,” he finally let out.
You nodded.
“I’m glad at least she agrees with me that only weird and abnormal people do things like that,” you let out with a bit of relief. “I was getting worried I’m the only person that feels that way…”
He only smiled in response, ignoring the fact that Cloud Retainer only said that it was “embarrassing,” not “weird” or “abnormal.” You really did not hesitate to deal your blows, did you?
“You know what the worst thing is, though?” You asked, looking up at him imploringly. “Legend has it that the gods are able to change their physical forms. There are even tales of Rex Lapis taking a female form. But… out of all the records, there are no depictions of his female form, only that she had amber eyes.”
Zhongli frowned in thought. Though he heard and understood your words well, he didn’t know what was the wrong in what you said. The tales of Rex Lapis were often embellished, especially in the way they painted him as the type to change his form often. The truth of the matter was far from that. Not that he could tell you that, of course. But before he could respond in any way, your eyes became filled with tears.
“I mean, he obviously didn’t mind leaving evidence of his male visage. And as I told you before, he made sure he looked good in every one of them. So if he was narcissistic enough to do that, why not leave anything behind of his female form? You… You don’t think… she was UGLY, do you?” You cried in pain.
If his brain didn’t shut down before, it definitely did then. But not noticing, you continued on.
“That’s the only reason I can come up with. Rex Lapis shares his beauty with everyone, after all, so she must have been so ugly that a narcissist like him couldn’t bear for others to see!” You sobbed.
Every word that left your mouth felt like a blow to his ego. Was this truly what you thought about him?
“So do you see why my faith has been shaken? If we try to view him as a person, Rex Lapis was a simple-minded conceited weirdo that was so ashamed of his female form he wiped any and all traces of her depiction out of existence.”
He couldn’t do this anymore.
“While the tales of the past may be rooted in truth, it’s important to realize they are only that. Tales. Nothing more. As it is, we simply do not know how much we can take as fact. So I would not let it bother you too much, First,” he stated in a matter-of-fact manner.
Though you looked as if you had more to say, you slowly nodded once, then once again with more surety.
“You’re right. I guess I’m looking far too into this. Surely if the great Rex Lapis was revered by so many, even the adepti, he must have been worthy of the respect. I just need to remember that,” you replied bashfully. “I’m sorry to have piled this all on you, Zhongli.”
He shook his head with a chuckle.
“It is alright. I am glad to be your voice of reason.”
Laughing in return, you nodded.
“Yes, thank you. And well, I guess it could be worse, I suppose. Madame Ping was always respectful to Rex Lapis in her stories. She could’ve said that he was the kind of person with… I don’t know. No common sense or something. Like could you imagine if he was the type of person that thought it was a smart idea to bring square cups instead of circle to a party?” You asked with a laugh. “Now that would be horrifying.”
……
Yes, you certainly had a way with words.
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