#mike does love her but not in a romantic way and that's where the issues come in

[borbealis]

has anyone shared this here yet?? they are so unintentionally anti mint chips

[queermikewheelertruther]

“If Byler happens, what will happen to El?”

I’ve seen this question be asked a lot so I’m gonna answer it. I think she’ll be independent. She doesn’t need a romantic partner. She has so many loving friends and family to support her and if her entire arc was just breaking up with Mike in s4 and then their relationship being the entire plot in s5 would be kinda useless.

I’ve also seen a lot of people argue that if El doesn’t need a boyfriend and Mike isn’t good enough for her, then Will can be single too. This would be a good point if you watched the show with your eyes closed. Will NEEDS Mike, and I feel like people don’t understand if there is 4 seasons building up Will’s love for Mike just for it to end with a heterosexual relationship and him being alone would be a terrible ending. The difference between Mileven and Byler is that Mike can actually express his feelings to Will, in a way that they both understand. Their dynamic is SO much more intimate and passionate than Mileven. Byler being endgame would be a much better way to end the show because it would make El, Mike, and Will happy.

El NEEDS that independent strong women arc right now. She had her first kiss before she even knew how to form a sentence. They’ve been together for 2 (maybe 3) years without even knowing how to properly communicate and act in a relationship, and El needs to experience life without the pressure of being in a romantic relationship. I mean seriously, you cannot watch s4 and think that Mileven will be endgame. Every single other canon couple that is likely to be endgame all have something in common, they all understand and are on the same level romantically. However, with Mileven, this is not shown. They don’t understand each other romantically. This wouldn’t necessarily be an issue if they addressed and resolved this in season 4.

If Mileven were made to be seen as a healthy endgame ship, they would’ve put so much more effort and genuine and emotional feeling moments between them. They could’ve had Mike and El have a deep conversation about their problems, after their fight, and be in a private, calm space together. Mike could’ve explained directly to El why he’s been distancing himself romantically, his reaction at the roller-rink, and tell her how much he loves her. El could’ve explained to Mike why she didn’t feel comfortable enough to tell him she was being bullied, and they could’ve had some emotional, passionate kiss or something.

But they didn’t. Why? Because it’s not endgame. Why wouldn’t El and Mike be a main team together in s5? Why wouldn’t Mileven share similarities between other canon ships? Why does Byler have so many more intimate and romantic coded scenes in s4? What’s the point if Mileven is truly endgame?

(This is kinda badly worded but it’s like 2 am and idrk where I am)

[misterfibbly]

If Mileven is supposedly endgame, then why do we get ZERO moments from them together this season?

There are absolutely no scenes of them together, just them alone, having a moment or being couple-y in a way that doesn’t have either of them faking or lying to each other.

The first thing we see with both of them is El writing a letter to Mike, telling him about her life in Lenora, lying to him about it (what a great way to start off the season!! /s). Okay, but let’s give El the benefit of the doubt, maybe she’ll tell Mike as soon as they see each other, right?

Wrong.

Now, let’s get back to my original point about how they don’t have any scenes alone.

There’s a couple of scenes where we get them greeting each other, kissing (notice how Mike’s wearing sunglasses. Who’s to say he doesn’t have his eyes open under those? It certainly wouldn’t be the first time).

Also I’m not sure if it’s just me who sees this, but why does it seem like they’re trying to be as far away from each other as possible during that kiss?? Like lean into it a little if you really want it to seem like you like each other.

Oh look! We immediately see Jonathan in Will in the background (and Argyle in some frames) in a scene that’s supposedly a romantic reunion between Mike and El.

Mike is literally being DRAGGED right now, if he’s the one who got out of the car first, shouldn’t he be walking a bit more in the front? Oh and, of course, Will is in this scene too.

Will standing next to them as El lies to Mike about her friends. Will trailing behind them as they skate. Will eating with them. Will, Will, Will.

But wait — there actually is one scene where Mike and El are alone.

The fight! The only scene with just them, and the only scene where they show strong emotions for each other. Except it’s just El being angry at Mike, which she has every right to be, and she’s sad too. Mike seems distressed but he’s not nearly as upset as she is, and he’s showing absolutely no remorse either.

Even in the “love confession” scene, Will right there, and he’s the one who tells Mike to say “I love you” earlier in the van, Mike didn’t come to this conclusion himself, something he would have done if he really meant it and wanted to say it.

How the other couples are different

Jopper - Joyce spent the whole season looking for Hopper, Hopper spent the whole season missing Joyce and hoping she’s okay. Their reunion had emotional music playing they hugged for a long time and they kissed eventually too. The look in their eyes alone showed how much they care about each other.

Lumax - even though they were broken up for basically the whole season, they never stopped caring for each other and being there for each other. Lucas made sure Max was okay and continued to protect her. Max started to let Lucas back into her life and expressed that she needs him.

Even Jancy - they were separated for the whole season but we still got some lighthearted moments between them. They ranted to their friends about each other, and their meeting at the end was genuine and full of love.

Meanwhile, Byler…

They fought, too.

But they quickly made up.

I would add more pictures if I could, but my point is, Byler spent the whole season rebuilding their relationship. Mileven spent the whole season ignoring their issues. Byler had multiple heart to hearts, they continued to listen and understand each other, they worked together “as a team”.

[gayofthefae]

The ily speech isn't romantic because El indirectly got it from her brother, actually. It's part of why he's in the background of so many of those shots, and, really, the connection I just made is:

If Mike's reference to his earlier conversation with El empowered her to fight Vecna, Will's reference to his earlier conversation with Mike empowered Mike to tell El first.

It isn't romantic because it wouldn't exist without Will. It's not unromantic because that Mike wouldn't have said it otherwise. It's unromantic because you're brother shouldn't be that big a part of your romantic milestones.

The whole issue with Mike giving El strength is it undermines her independence arc because it gives him that partial credit for the fight. So if it does that, Mike's speech gives Will partial credit too.

This is Will in multiple shots of the speech:

This shot always gives me "WE love you".

Because when it cuts to Will, it's Will's reaction. But here it just feels like they're feeling this collectively, almost reminiscent of a joint reaction shot the way his entire body is fully in the frame. They agreed earlier that Argyle is making no sense so it cut to a shot of them. Now they agree that they love El and want her to live so it cuts to a shot of them.

When it gets more specific to Mike and El, it cuts to shots like this.

Actually, I found this gif. Where you can clearly see that when Mike is thinking only about telling El, something that Will is not privy to the internal motivation or struggle of, it shifts to primarily Mike - and there are later shots where Will isn't visible at all - but when it cuts back once he's built the courage, they're telling her together.

Even without all the reused lines, the speech can't be romantic because I could argue that Will gave that to her. The power of romantic love from your gay brother is not, I think, what we're going for here.

Especially when, most pertinently, the final shot in which Mike screams "fight!" Which is, after the whole speech, when El actually does, suddenly uses - after only using a close shot of Mike for quite a while including the last shot - uses this shot

Putting Will entirely back into the shot again, maybe even moreso than before.

And all these wide shots have El's head in them, El's POV - El's dirty OTS here. To Mike, it's just him (except for when it's Will too). To El, it's both Mike and Will every time we see her perspective.

Even to her, Will was included.

[emblazons]

I said I was gonna so a whole long post about the monologue after my rewatch so: having watched the whole Vecna monologue v Mike monologue that happens in the Piggyback in full for the first time in actual months…god damn. Just.

There is no way to understand what’s happening with El (and her relationship with Mike) during the monologue without looking at Vecna's monologue that comes right before it. There just isn’t, and if you try you’re 100% going to miss critical context for why things happen the way they do both in mlvn’s relationship and on screen.

First off: after what Vecna says to her, El is fully in self-defeat (and self-loathing) mode. She’d just learned that every single attempt of hers to do "right" with the knowledge she had at the time had actually been useful to the person destroying her world—

—and despite trying so hard to overcome her sense of destructiveness about things like scaring Mike and hitting Angela by going to “learn who she is” at Nina, it turned out that even the moments she perceived as her “heroic” ones (like closing the gate and stopping the mindflayer monster in S3) were actually tools useful to Vecna…just like her Piggybacking in to save Max.

El is literally hearing that even her best attempts at being “good” were used for evil, which makes her an accomplice to Vecna even if she didn’t mean to be—

—which we're shown, as El remembers all the moments she thought she was "helping" only to be told each one of those was her having her powers used by Henry/Vecna.

If that wasn't enough, we literally watched as El paralleled herself directly to the person whose powers are now being used to destroy the world, even as we (the audience) know most of what is happening is just Vecna do what he does best by tapping into her deepest core fears.

Vecna adds insult to injury here by making it clear that he once "wanted her by his side" in the first place (aka the powers she's been trying to use for good cannot be divorced from bad things)—

—and from this second onward (in El's perception at least) there is no way for her powers to be used correctly even when she wants to be helpful—which is why she “gives up,” lets the vine loop around her neck in the first place, and stares unmoving and crying at Max.

Basically: What Vecna says steals even the little resolve she gained back at Nina…which is why she stops fighting entirely.

Now, all of this is an extremely fair reason to feel defeated and dejected about trying to fight (on top of traumatizing af for El)—

—the problem is (like everything else wrong in their relationship) Mike once again has no sense of El’s internal state because she doesn’t and has not historically shared it (or can’t in this case), and therefore can only answer what he externally perceives her state to be—which he guesses, based on their last argument, has to do with him not being able to say he loves her.

The disjointedness between what is really happening with El and what Mike wrongly perceives the issue to be is why we see El not only look repeatedly displeased by his confession—

—but why the only thing she can think of in relation to Mike positively is his initial rescue, when he takes her to a space where her powers are neutral / unknown (and not the force for evil even her best attempts at using them just became in her mind).

That dissonance is also why she doesn’t fight until he starts saying she need to get over herself and save someone else…which is why she looks at Max and decides to fight anyway.

In truth, Mike could have glossed over the entirety of the “I love you," "not I'm scared of you but I’m afraid of losing you” part and just said “I believe you can do anything, but right you need to fight” and gotten the same result, given that what needed to be addressed was her self-loathing, not Mike’s (lack of) romantic affections.

Basically: even if they weren’t on the precipice of a breakup, Mike’s love wasn’t going to make up for the fact that El has basically just learned that what Brenner said was true—she wasn’t ready, not even physically, but mentally…because she was not prepared to learn that even her best attempts at saving the world were actually helping Henry build to the end of it.

Combine that with the fact that she ends up losing Max despite trying to fight with Mike's encouragement...on top of the fact that all of her relationship with Mike was rooted in her wanting to feel "normal" (aka what Vecna just shot out the window permanently)?

...no amount of "I love you's" from a boy as insecure as Mike (who she keeps at emotional distance) is was going to help that, especially given that Mike was directly mirroring what Brenner (who she literally cannot stand atp) said to her trying to encourage her.

All of this...we haven't even touched on anything happening on Mike's side or how her powers (that he so admires her for) are now officially "evil" in El's mind, never mind every other aspect of their incompatibility? ☠️

—I know I'm gonna move from this post on to how what Brenner said to her about "facing the good and the bad / humans are rarely so simple" is actually how El's arc has to be resolved in the end, but.

For now I'm at 30 images and anything more would get convoluted easy, so I'll just leave us (and my million mile an hour thoughts) here.

[kiirotoao]

Can we talk about Mileven for a minute. Another reason I don't buy their romantic relationship is the fact that most of their one on ones as a romantic couple (S3) are comedic and not very serious. Where are the deep conversations and when are we ever shown how much they understand each other... post (S2). It's almost like once they started dating they became a joke? Yes they have a few sweet moments but it's also scripted to be laughable. (S4) never showed them having a honest deep convo resolving issues and growing romantically. It could happen in (S5) but at this point I don't see the emotional romantic draw.

And then there is Byler to compare it to, where most of their one on ones are much much more serious, deep, heartfelt, with actual evidence of understanding and talks involving their feelings (which Mike seems to not have an issue with unlike his plot in S4 with El). This, mind you, happens to some degree in every season with Will. If Mike just sees Will as his best friend, why is he so serious about Will especially alone together. Even best friends are more casual then this.

Also a side note. The (S3) Mileven straight stereotype of the 'lazy, lying, clueless boy' dating the 'girl who is playing hard to get to teach her boyfriend a lesson' troupe is icky and makes me want El to find her power solo and Mike to remember that the old Mike (who has a special will voice) is a much better person and boyfriend. Thoughts?

Damn! Well said, dear anon!! I couldn’t agree more.

To anyone who says anything along the lines of ‘oh, Mleven can’t be broken up, they’ve been building up this whole time!’ Or ‘here’s the slow burn everyone wanted,’ or ‘Mike and El have grown so much even after fighting,’ I really don’t understand how any of that is founded. I totally agree and I feel like their relationship has been rather unserious. Even in the most serious love-centered topics of support (s1), connection (s2), breakups (s3), and expression (s4), it’s really interesting to me how their relationship has consistently lacked depth.

Despite dealing with some of the most important aspects of strong relationships, they aren’t close enough to showing, providing, or proving to have one. Mike supports El in season 1 as she does him, protecting and aiding each other with their strengths. But… so does everyone in that season to each other? The only difference is that Mike sheltered El which is very sweet, but not inherently romantic.

Then there’s season 2, which I must confess - I think that their reunion scene at the end of the season remains one of the sweetest moments on the show. Ever. It’s raw and emotional, and this was the closest thing we got to something romantic. But what shoots it down is the fact that their emotion was due to forced separation and Mike’s very real complex grief which gets completely glossed over in the show. So, I don’t know. It’s tricky. So are they romantic yet? They get virtually no time together. It’s a no for me.

And oh yeah, season 3 was the peak of unserious-ness. I also don’t enjoy that trope of ‘the boy chasing the girl who just doesn’t get it yet and she snubs him until the very end’ kind of energy. I swear that that stuff is littered in family-friendly movies usually as comedic relief, and Mike and El just barely made that trope more serious at the very least. Their breakup is dramatized and humorous, and the way that it’s mended still makes me chuckle. Mike offers her M&Ms, compliments her looks, they smile at each other, and suddenly they’re all good again? Yeah, that’s not very clear romance to me. All season long, they keep resisting each other. Mike lashes out to everyone and declares that he loves El but can’t say it to her face, and El has Max’s words tattooed on her heart that she keeps asserting that she deserves trust. The two just don’t quite reach each other that season. The second that I heard Hopper say that they’ve only been kissing all Summer long without complaining about them talking, I knew that I was not going to be invested in their relationship this season.

And so season 4 was truly the nail in the coffin, the final turning point. They’re not only shallow in making up, they’re shallow in being together. El isn’t honest with Mike about her time in Lenora, how she’s spent it, the people she’s met, the fun she’s truly having. Mike snaps about Will being disinterested, so it’s pretty clear that he was dishonest about his true feelings that day, too. And the most telling part is that he’s not mad at El. He’s mad at Will.

I think that what the writers have done is craft something so deeply intricate and hidden with Mike and Will to the point of confusion in much of the audience today. Will has always been a buffer of affection for Mike. In season 1 he’s the one they’re searching for. In season 2, he’s the one that Mike protects. In season 3, he’s the true breakup that Mike fights for. In season 4, he’s the listening ear and bleeding heart that Mike relies on. Their love only gets stronger and stronger whereas Mike and El are simply loving under the guise of physical closeness. I seriously think that that’s all that they have for each other.

That hug sequence at the end of season 4 really shocked me, because when I saw Mike and El hugging (not to mention that shot with Will right between them) I thought that it was sweet, but then suddenly Will and El are hugging, the siblings who are absolutely platonic, and it felt more emotional than Mike and El’s embrace. So not only are Mike and El visually equated to a platonic relationship, but their bond doesn’t even hold the same weight as the sibling-hood of Will and El.

It’s just wild to me that people don’t see it. I think that Byler is made abundantly clear for us to root for. The crazy together scene did it for me the first time I saw it. It was and still is one of my favorite scenes ever because it’s the total package. Closeness? Check. Honesty? Check. Hurt/comfort? Check. Matching, nerdy Halloween outfits? Check. The lack of anyone or anything else to distract them? Check. The crazy together scene is a marker of their relationship, and it never, ever dies.

Even though they fight, where are they years later? They’ve gone through supernatural and personal troubles together, and they’re still by each other’s side. “Friends. Best friends.” The same at heart. They promise to support each other, they reconnect, they come back from every breakup, and they readily express things on their minds and hearts. They’re there for each other and tell each other things that no other boys in the party have told each other.

Mike and El try to understand each other, they do, and sometimes it’s just trying that’s enough, but on a truly intimate level, that’s bullshit. Mike and Will have everything that they need and want for each other, and there’s no going through hoops to get it besides internalized homophobia. Which I very well think can be reasonably addressed next season.

So yep. Byler is endgame.

[ratnix]

As a fan of both the CBS and the BBC version, I'd like to spend a moment and appreciate both of them and talk about some things that I like, enjoy and appreciate about each version and some things that I think one version does better than the other without trying to bring the other down💚

- One thing I appreciate about the BBC version is the non-romantic relationship between the ghosts. As an aroace, it always bugged me how the CBS ghosts fell in love so quickly and it just seemed...forced. Isaac and Nigel have to be the only CBS couple that actually feels like a couple while the rest are just...there. Thor and Flower, sure, maybe I can understand this one too but Trevor and Hetty and Pete and Alberta (not a couple but Pete has a crush on her) are just dumb and pointless. On the other hand, you can feel the platonical relationship between the BBC ghosts -not saying that the CBS ghosts aren't good friends, but the BBC ghosts feel like they've spent an eternity with one another. The BBC ghosts work better as a group while the CBS ghosts work better as individuals

- I really like Jay's relationship with the ghosts. Where Mike is "oh ghosts", Jay is "oh ghosts☺️". Calling them "invisible friends", asking if Hetty's okay after she left his body, proposing that Sam should help Thor with his nightmares. He's literally Pete's bff! Wanting to play D&D with him, both of them making references to things they both enjoy. I mean, Jay's first instinct when he thought he could see ghosts was to hug Pete

- I actually don't have an issue with the CBS version revealing the ghosts' death soon. I mean, it's not even soon. It made sense that Flower would be the first ghost in the first minutes to reveal her death because she's Flower. Even in the BBC version, from the first episodes we can get an idea on how Julian died because of the no pants and and how Fanny died from screaming when falling from the window. Season 3 hasn't come out and we still don't know how Hetty or Sass died -we know that Sass died the day he was going to tell his first story but we don't know how. As for Hetty, I'm thinking it might have to do with overdose given the amount of drugs she took that she didn't know we're harming her. The mystery aspect of their deaths in the UK version ties with the more "haunting" atmosphere of the show whereas the US one is "sunnier", which isn't a bad thing at all! Alberta's death was a mystery and the reveal with Hetty knowing the truth all along was gasp worthy

- It bugs me when people say that the US version is a copy of the UK one because, a)that's... that's what an adaptation is. The Office is an adaptation of the UK office but no one really cares? B) Aside from Pat/Pete's storyline, I can't see any other similar subplots other than their "main" aspect. Hetty and Fanny are the conservative ladies of the house, Sass and Thomas are the artists, Flower and Kitty have bubbly personalities, Robin and Thor are the oldest ghosts who speak broken English. Sure, Trevor and Julian both died without their pants on but both are pretty distinct from each other. Isaac and the Captain are the closeted soldiers but both of their storylines take different paths. All of the characters are different, with different personalities, interests etc. If the US version had carbon copy characters of the UK one, people would, justifiably, call it a copy but even now where the characters are very different they're still calling it one. They compliment and parallel each other without being the same

- The BBC version follows a more "creepy" tone, if that's the correct way of saying it, with a haunted atmosphere and that's cool. The CBS version follows a more sitcom-y tone with a more cheering atmosphere and that's also cool! No need saying one's superior than the other

- I think Crash was kinda pointless? They wanted to make a Humphrey but it didn't really work. He's not even a ghost that's there, unlike Humphrey who had a role and contributed to the story

Feel free to add your own opinions 💚

[blush-and-books]

QUESTION how does darvey compare to ur other ships?? i feel like their shared body language and the way they convey HISTORY is so unique ahaha

this is actually a great question and i would absolutely love to know your own other ships vs darvey, bc darvey is so different from so many of my ships!!!

i will say that joyce x hopper from stranger things is probably the only ship i have that even comes close to having any similarities to donna and harvey because of that sense of shared history, partnership, and platonic support leading into romantic support. but for the rest of my ships, it's like so opposite.

one of my main ships that is one of my most tagged ships on my blog is Julie and Luke from the netflix series Julie and the Phantoms!!! this series devastatingly only got ONE SEASON but had a huge following on tumblr. compared to donna and harvey's nine seasons and canonical 13 years of buildup, that inherently makes the ships very different, because Julie and Luke do not become "canon" (although mutual romantic feelings are made pretty darn clear). Julie and Luke have history together in an offhanded way - Luke is a ghost, and when he was 17, he actually met a young Julie's mom before she had Julie, and then he died, got trapped in purgatory(?) for 25 yrs, and then was brought back into the world as a ghost where he met Julie (after her own mom had passed away). This has resulted in a LOT of theories regarding them being soulmates - their characters mirror each other so well to the point that the colors of their costuming is often matching or inverted to each others clothing. They both have an undying love for music, mommy issues, and they fit together like two peas in a pod. Literally there's only one season of buildup, and there are over 3,000 works of fanfiction for them on ao3. Julie and Luke truly couldn't be more different lmao, because a lot of the magic that comes from them is a sense of destiny, inevitability, and their instant ability to be vulnerable with each other. With Donna and Harvey, the romance comes from the steadfast partnership and daily choice they make every day to choose each other.

Another big ship of mine is Anne and Gilbert from Anne with an E (or the whole Anne of Green Gables book series lol, but them in the AWAE tv adaptation is so good)!! They have a good amount of buildup and a sense of choosing each other, but the stakes are nowhere near as high as they are in Suits. Gilbert is so down bad for Anne the whole time. He's so the perfect man that I have a framed photo of him in my home. The TV show introduces us to their plotlines and character arcs as parallel tracks as they are finding their way through life and eventually meeting at the same place, whereas Donna and Harvey are definitely just on their own crazy journeys until they crash into each other and are finally in a place to be together. However, a very silly parallel that Anne/Gilbert has with Donna/Harvey is there is a sequence of Person B running to Person A when they realize that they're meant to be together. And Person A is a redhead.

Other ships I have are like Nina and Fabian from House of Anubis, or Zuko and Katara from ATLA. Also Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennett from P&P. I think a lot of my ships involve the man blatantly worshipping the ground that the woman walks on and constantly being complimentary and admiring of her; where we get only crumbs of that kind of dynamic with Donna and Harvey. Harvey definitely thinks, and has stated as such, that Donna is the most amazing woman he's ever met, but because Donna and Harvey are not thee main plotline of the show or even arguably the main relationship (when compared to Mike and Rachel), there's a lot less room for there to be blatant moments where Harvey is like "wow she's amazing!!!" because he's just not that guy.

please also let me know your thoughts on this and what ships you have!!! do we share any?

also, my response to your domestic!Darvey ask is still unfortunately in the works. i just want you to know i did not forget about it!!! <3333

[spicybylerpolls]

The passive aggressiveness in that last poll 😂. They missed a few key points. Saying they are the main couple of the show is true, but it's a superficial explanation of why people think a sex scene is important for them and not for anyone else. To elaborate for the people too busy freaking out about sex to stop and think... Context matters. Byler having sex makes sense with their character arcs. Their arcs are about self-acceptance and learning to embrace their sexuality and sexual identity. This is not true for other members of the party. Will spent the past 2 seasons feeling like he is never going to have a romantic relationship and his sexuality sets him apart from his peers. This season he reaches a point where he accepts that he will be alone and pushes Mike to El without realizing this isn't what Mike wants. So next season will be about him realizing his mistake and accepting that Mike wants the same thing. Mike's arc has been about him trying to conform with El and realizing he lost the person he actually loved in the process. He avoided his sexuality and spent this past season reconnecting with Will emotionally and reestablishing their friendship. So next season will be about them fully embracing their romantic relationship which includes sex - because we have seen multiple hints now that they are both thinking about sex. Hints like Mike checking Will out, Will realizing this and not moving (I'm sorry but there is no way he knelt on the floor with his butt in Mike's face and didn't realize this was happening), they both flirt with each other, they both stare at each other and make lingering eye contact. Mike in his underwear is meant to show how he is getting older and more comfortable with his body. Mike checking out every male in his vicinity is meant to show he has attraction to them. Will on the other hand is more contained. He is literally buttoned up all season even in the desert. He is more shy/reserved about this part of his identity and fully embracing this would provide closure to his arc. The reason Lucas and Max don't need to have a sex scene is that it contributes nothing narratively to their arcs or the story as a whole. And why the hell would Dustin and El have sex? To pair off the spares? El's whole arc is about finding her identity outside of being a superhero and finding her family. It's about friendship and learning how to have stronger (platonic) relationships. Sex isn't a part of her story. She isn't ready for that and it's fine that she isn't at the same place as her peers. Her accepting this is important. It's plausible that Lumax would have an implied sex scene like Jancy because of the coming of age narrative, to show they are older now. But it's not as necessary for their individual character arcs. And it's not necessary to show it. It's doesn't represent self-acceptance. It doesn't represent an embrace of sexuality and release of shame like it does for byler because they don't have that component to their relationship. They don't show Jancy having sex because there is no reason to. But they have that component to their relationship because they love each other and progressing to that stage made sense to progress their story. In the same way that hinting that Lumax had sex could make sense for them but it is also plausible that their story takes a different turn next season. There isn't build up to them having sex the way their is with byler. In short, just because byler does something doesn't set a standard for everyone else. They have a different relationship. They have different arcs. They have different issues to overcome. So them having a different story is totally fine. We don't need to see everyone struggling with the same thing when they all have their own unique thing they are dealing with. Mike and Will's arcs are about accepting their identities and embracing their sexuality. Therefore, them having a sex scene makes sense with that arc. That's why it's them and not anyone else. No one else's story has to do with embracing their sexuality. Only theirs.

Please note that the purpose of this blog is not to be creepy or to make anyone uncomfortable. That's why I created the #spicy byler tag (I will tag all polls with this). If you don't want to see this blog or anything related to it on your feed, please block that tag. Not everyone is comfortable with this sorta stuff, and that's okay.

[blushweddinggowns]

Mike wasn’t homophobic, okay? He just wasn’t. And he really wished that Dustin would stop making jokes about it. He knew that he was kidding and he knew that he kind of deserved it for how much he shit on Steve, but he still didn’t like it. 

He didn’t want Eddie to think about him like that. He didn’t want anyone to think of him like that. Them being gay wasn’t the issue, there was no issue. He just would never understand what Eddie saw in the guy he decided to devote his whole life to. 

Because Eddie was awesome. He was so freaking talented as an artist, as a storyteller, as a musician. He was confident, took zero shit from anyone who dared to comment on his weird hobbies, and… he was kind of hot. But not like in a gay way, of course not. Mike wasn’t like that. More… in a tough guy kind of way. Especially when he got to bear witness to him beating the ever-loving shit out of Billy Hargrove, which outside of the things El could do was probably the coolest thing he had ever seen. 

He’d be lying if he said that Eddie wasn’t the sole reason why he started growing his hair out in the first place. He just… wanted to be like him. Even if he still would never understand his choice in romantic partners. 

It wouldn’t never not be weird seeing Eddie and Steve together, even after all this time. Like okay. Yeah, Steve wasn’t ugly. And he could be funny sometimes. Maybe. And yes, he was brave as hell and may have saved his life once or twice. But he still didn’t get it, not really. Though… Mike also didn’t quite get why El was into him either. Not when she was literally a freaking superhero and he was just… himself. 

Huh.

But that realization still didn’t make him understand why the two of them were so obsessed with each other. Maybe it was because they’d known each other for so long? Everyone knows they weren’t actually together in grade school, but that didn’t stop the two of them from acting like they were. Eddie never missed the chance to mention that they’d been together for over a decade, always with a big, dumb grin on his face. 

It makes Mike’s mind wander into odd directions. It was so weird, being with someone for that long. It would almost be like if he and Will had gotten together as kids. Except they had known each other even longer, since Kindergarten. What would that be like? Would they be just as weird as Eddie and Steve? In all honesty, Mike kind of thought that they would be weirder. If he was gay. Which he wasn’t. And neither was Will, so it was a moot point, but that doesn’t stop him from thinking about it. 

Maybe it’s because Eddie and Steve are always shoving how in love they are down their throats. It was so stupid that it kept making him think about Will instead of his actual girlfriend. Whom he loved. Like a lot.

Just… not enough to say it recently. But it’s not like it’s a big deal, right? It was just in letters. Besides, saying I love you felt like an in-person thing, didn’t it? It was more romantic that way. He’d say it to her when he saw her next, simple as that. She’d only have to wait a few more months, though Mike felt a little… weird about their plans for spring break. 

Technically he had no reason to feel like that. Everything was totally fine. El was doing great in California. Will was probably doing fine too, not that he asked anymore. He… didn’t like to think about Will much at all anymore, for reasons he’s not quite sure of himself. 

But not thinking about it was so much fucking easier. He was too busy enjoying his first year of highschool, something that he would never have thought was possible. But Eddie and Hellfire just had that effect on him. Though… he could really do without the sessions where Steve was hanging out in his lap. 

It’s not that seeing them together grosses him out or anything. Well… it does. But in the same way seeing Nancy and Johnathan making out was gross. And it kept making him think of all of that weird Will shit. If anything it starts to piss him off a little, even more than his sister’s relationship used to, it was seeing how happy they always were. 

But he was in control of it. Maybe his mom was right about teenage hormones making him crazy after all. It’s not like it has anything to actually do with Will. 

Right?

From the newest chapter of this fic

[ellmaii]

Anti Mileven Bylers: “Mike doesn’t love Eleven, he just loves her powers and glorifies her as a superhero”

Are they forgetting the whole season long drama between Mike and everyone because he was mad they were using her powers, causing her potential harm and risk of being exposed and taken?

Anti Mileven Bylers: “El doesn’t understand love and relationships and isn’t ready for a relationship”

Are they forgetting the conclusion of Eleven and Brenner’s relationship? Or her time in NINA entirely? She’s doesn’t severely lack emotional maturity, she does NOT have the mind of a child and limited capacity with independence. She struggles with a lot of things as result of being isolated and mistreated her entire life but it doesn’t make her incapable of a romantic relationship.

Anti Mileven Bylers: “there is an unhealthy mental/academic gap between Mike and Eleven”

Of course theres a gap! He grew up in a middle class background living a very normal life while she grew up confined and abused in a lab without receiving a formal education. But what’s the issue, why should it stop them from being together? Believe it or not, relationships between neurotypical, ‘normal people’ and people who have disabilities and trauma’s do exist. Relationships where one partner takes care of the other (that could be emotionally, physically, financially ect) do exist!!

Is Mike taking advantage of her difficulties? Does he control her, baby her, lie because she might not know better then to believe him?(him lying in season 3 doesn’t count, the circumstances are completely different🙄)No. That’s not an opinion it’s a fact, we never see him do that. In what way does her not being on the same academic/mental level as him make their relationship toxic?

At the end of the day they’re just two kids from very different backgrounds who love each other. They’re relationship isn’t perfect but it’s what they both choose. You love who you love.

I’m tired and getting really bored of people who ship Byler and use Mileven to further their ideology going to extreme lengths by finding ‘reasons’ Mileven is unhealthy and morally wrong. They don’t have to like them, their reasons for disliking them just often contradict the evidence or are straight up offensive and discriminatory.

[ven0moir]

Top 5 reasons why I firmly believe Byler is endgame.

This is just my opinion, I’m not saying these are THE most compelling reasons as a whole. 

01. Will’s painting + the way it was set up and used. 

As is, we know that Will’s feelings in the van 100% represent what he feels about Mike, with some of it applying to Eleven. But the painting was Will’s, those were his feelings, that was his effort, his gift. If the writers wanted it to feel like these were El’s feelings, with some of them applying to Will, then THE PAINTING WOULD’VE BEEN FROM HER. 

We ASSUME those are somewhat El’s feelings as well because that’s what Will implied to both Mike AND the audience, aka his POV of their relationship. This narrative REMOVES El’s perspective on the matter. We don’t truly know what her stance in her own romance is at this point anymore, and we got no interactions between her and Mike in the end to confirm that what Will said still applies to her or if it ever truly did to begin with. Why permit WILL to help solve their relationship issues, at the cost of his own feelings and heart, instead of giving Mike and Eleven a say in their own romance, to make the decision themselves and solidify them as a powerful romance? It was left open-ended for a reason. Because Mileven is the safe/obvious option. A red herring. 

The painting having been from Eleven would’ve confirmed to the audience that Eleven still needed and wanted Mike romantically after all. That their relationship could still be saved and that it was up to Mike now. 

This whole set up, as painful as it is right now, was necessary to move the three character arcs forward in a way that felt natural. Elmike (platonic) + Byler (romantic) is the only conclusion that leads all three parties to find balance and harmony with each other.

02. The Unreliable Narrator theory. 

The unreliable narrator technique was applied in s4 to conceal a big reveal. 

Victor Creel was an unreliable narrator.

When we first learn about Henry and his family, we do so through the lens of his father Victor. He had some answers, but not all of them, and since he did not know his son was a murderer, we as the audience were led to not suspect him. The general audience relies on Victor’s narration fully and doesn’t question anything. However, a more observant audience would have noted that something about Henry felt off, particularly when his mother was killed. He was just sitting there showing no emotion in a context where he should have. 

Not only was Victor Creel an unreliable narrator, the story was incomplete without Henry’s perspective and his re-telling of the SAME story. 

Flip Victor with Will, and Henry with Mike. We saw s4 from Will’s POV as a way to make us sympathize with him, meaning the story is incomplete without Mike’s POV. An example of this technique being present in their dynamic is in Rink-O-Mania. Will felt ignored and we did not once see Mike look at him, but during their fight we learnt that Mike WAS paying attention to him and noticing the little details about his behavior. Will leads us to believe this isn’t a big deal, and so the audience learns what he learns, and believes what he believes. At face value, we’re supposed to take Will’s POV and just assume Mike’s in his own head/worrying about his own problems. But an observant audience would pick up on Mike’s strange behavior around Will. Mike’s POV will reveal the TRUTH once we finally get it in S5, and Will’s expectations, along with the audience’s, will be subverted: Mike was acting strange around Will because his feelings are requited. Because a rejection is already expected. 

03. The airport scene.

This is basically self explanatory. If Mike doesn’t know Will is in love with him, as CONFIRMED by the Duffers and Finn, WHY does he act so awkward around him? It cannot be that he’s grown shy of physical contact with his friends, because we literally saw him hug Dustin in episode 1. It cannot be that it’s been THAT long he feels awkward around Will now, because it’s only been 6 months and they hugged fine when they last saw each other. 

But most importantly, if Mike wanted to act cool and like everything was normal, HE WOULD’VE HUGGED WILL. He’d have hugged his bestie without a problem to keep on the facade that he’s NORMAL and this cool guy, but instead he went the route of pretending he didn’t care … because he was jealous. And then spent the whole season seeming nervous around Will. 

Will was there when Mike said he loved Eleven that one time. And has no idea now that their entire problem was him being unable to say it again. Once again, this entire thing seems confusing because it is MEANT to be until they unravel the truth in S5. 

04. Try before you deny. The pineapple on pizza analogy.

Call me delusional all you want, but it is NOT the first time they use this type of foreshadowing to hint at a character’s sexuality IN THE SHOW. 

‘Blasphemous. Putting FRUIT on pizza?’ 

The pineapple on pizza thing is a debate irl but in the context of the show IT IS QUEER CODING. The writers know that. And when Mike goes ‘No, you’re right. It’s good!’ the camera is on Will. This isn’t ‘proof that Mike is gay’ this is a HINT, an ANALOGY. The pineapple represents ‘boys’, specifically, Will. The question now is if this analogy does end up meaning something in the end. And in my opinion, it will. 

And to any audience (that isn’t homophobic), it will be quite ironic and humorous upon rewatch seeing Mike being told to ‘try before you deny’ something knowing he ended up with Will. It’s very on brand with the show, it’s not delusion. 

05. The type of show Stranger Things is. 

Having one of the main couples get together at the end while they had been developed SINCE S1 RIGHT UNDER PEOPLE’S NOSES feels extremely on brand, especially having it be one of the final surprises of the entire series. It would also increase rewatch times, as if you did not notice it the first time, you’d HAVE to watch it again with the thought of Mike being queer in mind. It all falls into place then and it is sincerely GENIUS. Duffers have said they know the most ‘popular’ option isn’t always the best one, and as it stands, Mileven being the endgame would be the most predictable and expected outcome. 

There are MANY more, but these are basically the ones that just bring it home to me. 

[certainty2witch]

Sometimes i just go on Netflix and watch some scenes, not just the byler ones, also the m*lev*n ones.

Because Mike reactions are so different when he is with Will, i still have to get used to him faking so much for putting the “I’m straight and normal” mask. Is not just Will the one that is having troubles with his sexuality, i personally think Mike is in the worst position. Because faking is more hurtful than keeping yourself in the closet. Because he keeps everything inside and fake to be another person, is a double issue.

Attention! I’m not saying it doesn’t hurt! (and trust me it does, I know that feeling, before I confessed to my bff, now gf, i felt like Will)

The way Mike apologize along to the remorse he has on his face after he said something awful to Will, the way he flirts with him (mostly in s4), all the support he always gave him, those lips stares (started in s2!)… damn there are other stuff I could mention!

With El he feels so damn unnatural, he cares yes (like he also precise), but we can clearly see that he doesn’t love her in that way.

The truth always comes out sooner or later, and Mike already surpassed the edge, he can’t pretend anymore. We can see it at the end of s3 after El kissed him. Seconds before that, he was also lying about not remember the confession he said to Max about El. Plus his body language doesn’t help him, he looks so uncomfortable. He doesn’t want to keep her as his gf, it seems he was hoping she wanted to say “let’s just be friends”. But it didn’t happen. And he can’t refuse to accept that, because would expose his true feelings (🏳️‍🌈). Is a boy from 80s, he can’t freely be gay and in love.

With so it was obvious s4 would have a worst Mike in their relationship. He had enough of being romantically connected to her. But look how natural and adorable he is with Will, he is again himself! He was so terrible in s3, since was faking. He acted not like Mike. That person was what Mike wanted to be: “normal” and straight, is not just the rebellious phase of a early teen.

But we saw again that old Mike we all missed in s3 (we had a bit of it anyway), again we see s1/s2 Mike when he is again with Will, his home (“it’s Hawkins. It’s not the same without you”). When he is not with El, he also behaves like Mike. Remember at the start of the season, when he is with Eddie! I mean again he plays dnd, his biggest passion! And in s3 he told Will that they were grow up and they should have done something else instead of playing. And then he starts to play again dnd in the hellfire club (he was convinced to play again at the end of s3, in the scene where he sees Will donating his book, and I’m sure he was also convinced to not continue his relationship with El. So to be himself again).

The fact he was also not himself, that was faking reminds me of st*ncy, where Nancy was another person just for Steve. She didn’t love him, she was pretending too (ahh wheelers and their problem of being themselves).

Barb told her she wasn’t herself (“it’s not you”). And I’m glad Nancy understood it, not because I love Jancy, but because Nancy wasn’t Nancy and kept being a jerk (like Mike is in s3) Barb’s disappear and death probably made her realize it.

I hope Mike would realize it soon (and without something tragic pls), but I trust him and I know it’s already started.

[pinkeoni]

I am willing to ask this question even though i am aware that you support Byler; would you accept it if Mike and El broke up in the beginning of the S5, but then got together after fixing their problems? So in this case the writers decide to fix their relationship instead of making Byler a canon pairing?

Hiya anon,

I assume you are going off of this ask that I answered where I said that I would be happy with Jncy endgame if they broke up early s5 and sorted out their problems first.

The quick answer to your question is no but I'll explain a little more.

This is actually a compelling question: Would I be okay with Mike and El being together in the end if they broke up and fixed their problems? The issue here is that their relationship fundamentally does not work because they do not love each other romantically to begin with.

Compare this with Jncy. The big difference between Jncy and Milkvan is that I believe that Jonathan and Nancy do have genuine romantic love for each other, I just think that they are likely to break up early next season because of how pieces of their narrative has been written. Their issues are pretty easily definable— they have communication problems, but they also have some personal problems that need to be sorted out individually. Nancy is distant with her family while Jonathan needs to be de-parentified.

Milkvan's issues are on a foundational level. As stated above, I don't believe either one of them are actually in love with the other. There issues aren't something that I think can be fixed with a seasonal arc, I actually think that the only way to solve their issues would be to actually completely rewrite their narratives from the beginning. There are many other reasons that I could go into, like queerbaiting, how it would be detrimental to Mike, El and Will etc, but for the sake of this answer I wanna keep it brief.

Thanks for the ask!

[chirpsythismorning]

I am going to be honest, I want a quick Mlvn breakup and a quicker Byler buildup/it going canon BUT I also think it is very fitting for Mlvn's breakup to take place in the later episodes. E1 is literally into action, El's focus seems to be on Max and she doesn't break up her relationship issues with Mike for that reason. I just cannot really see El coming at Mike and bringing up her relationship issues or breaking up with him with everything else going on in these first episodes. It seems very likely that she'd just ignore the topic and would want to focus on Max and the fight that is coming to Hawkins. Her breaking up with Mike could potentially happen in EP3 or E4 when she feels ready to talk or when Mike finally brings up the argument when the time comes. Ofc they will have to focus on relationship issues too but I just think it doesn't fit in the early episodes to go for a Mlvn breakup.

It really does depend on how the first two episodes go down I feel like.

I doubt they're saving the time jump for smack dab halfway through the season. I just don't think mid-point would be enough time to have left to finally jump into the time difference. And I also doubt they'll devote up to 5 episodes to directly post s4, bc in all reality, they probably want to have the aged up cast be doing as much footage post-time jump as possible.

Along with that, they did say that early s5 would be fast paced. They revealed that s5 opener was pretty much set in stone, and that the first 2-3ish hours are pretty fast paced and they have a plan.

And for those reasons I do think we're in for an early s5 time jump.

Which means if we're looking at them having a plan and getting to work within like 1-3 hours, i'm going to guess that whatever happens at that 3 hour mark is going to be massive, leading to the time jump, into a setting where Mike and El are most certainly broke up.

This doesn't even have to do with byler purposes.

Mike AND El deserve closure on their relationship as soon as possible. Fans that love Mike and El don't need to be wasting their time watching s5 El scenes thinking she's holding out hope for Mike or this or that. She did not like his monologue, as it was quite literally the opposite of what she wanted to hear. So why leave that truth up to interpretation for half the last season? Why not let El speak for herself, allow the audience to digest it and accept it, so they too can focus on El focusing on Max.

I think if they were going to do a whole other half season of them being together along with them still being together post-time jump, it would make their point of having El distance herself from Mike at the end of s4 sort of moot?

I do truly think the next time they hang out or talk, she's not going to want there to be this present assumption they are still together because of what he said at Surfer Boy. I think that after what happened at the hospital, Mike might have started to convince himself that she did feel all those things for him and that his love for her saved max and it's miracle worthy. But then she's ignoring him at the cabin and that's not exactly great for that interpretation of things...

Being in a relationship means there is going to be an expectation that they want moments of privacy to be alone together and they're going to be gravitating towards each other in group settings and stuff... and that's just not happening, s4's ending made that more clear than anything else arguably.

So while I do think that El is going to be focused on Max, having this ambiguity most of the season that Mike is like in the back of her mind and stuff would take away focus from El finally having an arc compeleltely seperate from Mike and with the audience finally being able to let go of Mike and El. Because arguably, a big part of the reason fans can't let go of it is because they are convinced El wants and needs Mike romantically, irrefutably, and she still feels this way at the end of s4. But that is not the case. And with this being the very last season, the whole season needs to feel cohesive and not like a back and forth fake out for love triangle reasons.

This is why I think they've always made a point to have conflict between couples early in the season, because then it allows you to give the other part of the love triangle a chance without feeling guilty about it.

For example, Steve and Nancy technically never broke up. They went through almost an identical situation as Mike and El did, where Steve asked her to tell him that she loved him and she couldn't, followed by them just not seeing each other for the rest of the season and her showing up at the end with Jonathan by her side. They had a talk about it and Steve seemed to understand. They didn't need to say out loud I break up with you, for both of them to know it was pretty much over. Arguably it was even more over in Mike and El's case, because El actually sent Mike a letter without the word love, making it pretty obvious where she stood in their relationship.

And this is sort of how I understand the break-up in s5 to go down, where it's not even really a break up? Like are they even technically back together? Following the approach they went with jancy in s2, arguably, all that needs to happen is Mike and El having a moment alone, with Mike struggling to try to be who she wants him to be (bc he still probably assumes she wants him that way) and her just confronting him that they both cut the bs... I'm praying PRAYING for an I'm not stupid final parallel from El to Mike.

Basically, it can be argued El already broke up with him, or at least wanted a break and so her acknowledging her side of things and how she felt, now after years of not being able to really speak for herself (like literally), she finally can, and addressing how she feels about everything is something that needs to be done sooner than later.

El doesn't need to be in silence with the audience assuming her thoughts for her, any longer than necessary at this point. And she can focus on Max before during and after all of that, with the audience being forced to accept that there is no room for ambiguity in where she stands in the situation.

And I think Mike is obviously going to be confused.

And I think Will is probably going to be trying to give them their space assuming they want privacy.

And it's all going to be very tragic and epic basically.

But with the time jump likely happening earlier in the season than later, I think that we're due for an early milkvan breakup for the obvious reasons, but also because both of those characters deserve closure instead of living in uncertainty any longer.

Not to mention, byler getting together after like a few days or a week after mike and el broke up, would be uncomfy. It's just not ideal when they have the affordance of a time jump right there that they can take advantage of, give Mike and Will a little more slow-burn (depending on where they're even at I'm scared someones going to get stuck in the UD or something like JESUS).

To me it all just makes sense when you consider a bunch of other factors beyond just El needs to focus on Max. Bc... Yeah no shit and she doesn't need the audience thinking she's focused on Mike when she's not...

Like let's give El her independence arc and have it be for real and not with this cloud of she needs romantic love to feel fulfilled dragging her along. Romantic love is wonderful and beautiful, but for women it is always always framed as peak endgame for us, when we are more than that and we deserve some stories that focus on those other aspects of ourselves as being enough to make us whole, especially when the person we want to love doesn't love us the way we want to be loved, and so we're just settling for a love for the sake of an idea, and not how it actually makes us feel.

And I also think it's likely that we're looking at byler being stuck together at least 2+ episodes by themselves, and that's likely to be middle season, and Mike and El will definitely need to be broken up at that point to appreciate those scenes...

For now I think it's very likely that the break up will happen either in 5x01 or 5x02. If it happens later than that, then I think it's likely that we'll get a flashback revealing they've been broken up for a while and it'll make us rethink their previous scenes a little bit differently.

I also think it's likely that no matter what happens, there's a big possibility Will and maybe even the others won't be clued in on the break up right away, but especially Will. And that will cause him to distance himself and lead to a convo where he's basically confronted by Mike frustrated over Will avoiding him, with Will revealing that he'd thought that's what Mike wanted, for Will to give him and El space... And Mike, already broken up with El at this point's reaction to that... would be interesting. Because obviously that's not true. Maybe that could lead up to their 3rd and final boss fight?

I do believe we're getting a s5 fight (Will packed a blue shirt for himself in his backpack, which he has in Hawkins), but I also think it's going to end differently than the previous two..

On that note, when it comes to the byler aspect of it, it really is crunch time. Each season has to make you feel a certain way about things. I don't think it would make sense to have s5 be exactly like s4 for half of the running time, and then switch up halfway through, to like okay NOW it's obvious Mike and El aren't in love and Mike and Will are on their way. The WHOLE season needs to make us feel that way, so that we can appreciate it as like a whole experience.

Like I said, they could get away with it being 5x02, maybe 5x03, but I do think that they need to give off a vibe of 'we want you to be rooting for Mike and Will' as early as possible, so people can register it, agknowledge it and then have the capacity to appreciate it the way they intend, all in time for them actually getting together. And 1-2 episodes near the end isn't enough time for that. And having too much ambiguity for Mike and El simultaneously as they're building up Mike and Will's obvious endgame, would be just unfair to all of them, but especially El.

Please give us an I dump your ass part II and have them laugh crying bc it's something Max said...

Now that I think about it. Max being in the hospital could make Mike feel a little bit in agreement with how Max felt about his actions in s3... Like it's not like he would be resentful or arguing with a person in a coma right? If anything he'll be thinking even more critically of his behavior with El when he doesn't have Max there to call him out for it...

Thinking thoughts...

[kiirotoao]

Thinking about how Mileven could break up. I don't see how Mike can be the one to do it. Mainly because it has to be done in a way where El isn't the victim of heartbreak, otherwise it makes Mike look really bad to the audience and the audience needs to root for Mike and (Byler's) success. (At least to those who are not already there).

If she's the one to break things off, however, it could make Mike the sympathetic character. As long as he is simultaneously having gay realizations, that way it's not as if he's just choosing Will as a back up plan. (obviously Will isn't but it needs to feel organic and independent from his relationship with El)

Does that mean the break up has to be El driven or just mutual? (Mutual at least seems to have the least amount of breakup "negativity").

The other factor is Mike or El finding out about the painting. But I would argue that if El finds out and decides to leave Mike for the sake of Will happiness.... doesn't that just make her even more the sympathetic party and Mike is the one she loves.

If season 5 Eleven starts to move away from Mike romantically, I guess that wouldn't be an issue anymore

It all depends of how it's written. I want Byler to happen but for me it still needs to be executed well. The multiple time jumps could also help with giving more Byler/Mileven space to play out.

Thats it! Thanks

Thanks for the thoroughly written ask, dear anon! I love having some content to gnaw on 👌

So, yes, the question of how would Mike and El break up. I really hope that it’s mutual and that they both realize that they simply aren’t working romantically.

I find it interesting how you factor in sympathy and perception of Mike and El. In the Steve-Nancy-Jonathan triangle, I think that perception is relevant. Nancy is shamed for bringing Jonathan over. Steve and Nancy are the affluent power couple of Hawkins High, and Jonathan enters from a down-to-earth, poor family. It’s the talk of the entire school when Steve and Nancy get together - everyone knows their names. The thing is that I believe that Nancy has romantic chemistry with Steve as well as Jonathan, so for them, emotional bond and sympathy when breaking up is quite felt since choice and weighing options of relationships is highlighted for their dynamic.

But as for the Will-El-Mike triangle, their status isn’t the focus, it’s their interactions. That’s not to say that Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan’s interactions don’t matter, but as kids, Will, El, and Mike are still much more clearly developing and changing. Their concepts of romance are portrayed to us as much more consequential of each other rather than outside influence. Take Nancy and Steve being influenced by Tommy and Carol. Take Nancy and Jonathan being influenced by Murray. Those types of waves in questioning relationships don’t happen between the kids. The only “outside” influence to muddle Mike and El’s relationship is Hopper who doesn’t or at least didn’t like Mike and made him lie to El, but otherwise, the kids are never under scrutiny or peer pressure to do things to/with the person they like.

What also makes Will, El, and Mike unique from Steve, Nancy, and Jonathan is that all three of the youngsters know each other very well. Mike and Will are best friends. Mike and El are bonded after finding Will together. El and Will became sister and brother. They are not mutually exclusive, they exist in each other’s lives very tightly. Meanwhile, Steve and Jonathan haven’t had a proper conversation (besides arguments) in canon. Ever.

So, yes, I think that a typical sympathetic break up would blur things for Will, El, and Mike, but the thing is that I also don’t think that that’s how the break up will be handled.

At the crux of it all, they both love Will. They both clearly want him to be happy, too, and I think that that starts at acceptance. If Will comes out to the both of them, I think that they’ll be able understand what he means and sweetly realize that their entire situation works out for the better if Mike and El break up. It won’t be as smooth as that, of course - and, actually, I think that this might be the hardest part of the process as Will would probably feel too guilty to ever come out to either of them and risk changing what he has with them let alone expose his lie to Mike - but I think that all the pieces can clearly fall into place as their loves for each other mix and collide.

I know that Will is a point of contention and consideration, and I think that it wouldn’t feel as complete of a break up if Mike and El don’t address him and what he means for their standing relationship. Will did so much for Mike and El in season 4. He tried to push El to tell the truth about the bullying, and he tried to encourage Mike that he was “the heart” and that El needed him. Although neither of those pushes ended up in full, fleshed-out conversations, that’s not on Will. That’s on Mike and El. And the fact that neither of them could deepen their conversations even with Will’s help says a lot to me. But yeah, we’re here leaning on a break up, I know that I’m not here to argue that. The question is how.

I think that Will’s painting needs to be addressed, and once it is, no matter where Will possibly coming out factors into this, El will realize that her brother has a crush on Mike and not a girl, Mike will realize that he’s fallen in love with Will’s affections and thus him, and they’ll both be able to sort out their circumstances. Of course, it’s not that simple, but I think that they’ve come far enough to discern how to handle the difficulties. El needs to know that she’s not the monster first, and Mike needs to know that he’s worth more than being El’s support first. Then their disagreements about their perceptions will come more fully into view, which will lead to a mutual understanding.

I agree that it would be tough if it was one-sided in either direction. Because in order for it to be one-sided and difficult would mean that either of them haven’t fully grappled with who they are.

But if they do understand who they are, it puts many awkward notions at ease. Because if El is for Will’s happiness, she’s also for her own. She doesn’t have to be against herself. She can see how Mike isn’t the one romantically for her and that she can have someone who is openly affectionate, who writes “love” on every letter and note. He doesn’t see her qualities like a partner but as a confidant, and that’s okay. They can still be great together, they can still be close. And if Mike is able to realize his sexuality and point of affection for Will as romantic, it’s not like he suddenly needs to remove El from his life. Hell, El and Will are siblings now, so whoever he’s with, he’s going to have the other there. I think that El is special to Mike; she always will be. She’s the first person that’s given him this opportunity of a lifetime, and I think that he can love her as fondly as ever, just not as a girlfriend anymore.

Their bond as each other’s protectors and safe places will trump their being exes, if you ask me.

So here’s how I dream it to go: Mike and El talk. It’s casual at first, but they’re both still tense after all the tragedy. They talk about how scared/worried they are, how they just don’t seem to hold each other up. Even though they’re both trying, something is off. They like being together, but if this is love, then it doesn’t feel quite right. They both agree. Mike still genuinely thanks her for the painting to which things shift. El doesn’t know about the painting. It was for him? Mike is now flustered. El realizes that Will is in love with Mike. They piece it together aloud, and she asks how Mike feels about him. All it takes is for Mike to convey that he does like Will. He apologizes. He feels horrible, guilty. But El just puts her hand on his. It’s okay. She didn’t realize it, either. The fault isn’t always on one thing, she’s learned. They hug. Something like that.

I want to close this by saying that I agree that it all comes down to how the break up is written, and I think that the writers have all the pieces to make it pretty lovely. Will, El, and Mike all love each other very much, it’s just a matter of sorting out the displaced romance without losing anything other kind of love for each other.

Basically…

Their central bond of unconditional love doesn’t ever need to change, just the status of their flexible relationships.