#my brain has melted. I spent days on this and I'm still not any clearer

[celaenaeiln]

I know you don't really talk about Tim and Jason but I wondered why you said that Bruce likes Jason more then Tim when I always viewed it the other way around

og post in reference

Anon it's a such a coincidence for me to get this because this was something I actively debated over while creating the ranking.

In fact, originally I had written "4. Jason/Tim (tie?) 5. Tim/Jason (tie)" before I got rid of the slashes and ties.

This is the one part of the ranking that I'm most confused on/don't have an exact answer for. The rest are solid and those I'll be explaining in a different post soon but these two gave me a lot of confusion.

I think what it comes down to is in which shitty way that Bruce treats either of them expresses more love. And to me they're roughly the same in equally but different bad ways.

Bruce obviously loves Jason but he's also not remotely proud of him. His relationship with Jason is always "I love you BUT-" kinda relationship.

"You're good-

Batman (1940) Issue #415

BUT-"

Batman (1940) Issue #415

"You're loveable-

Batman (1940) Issue #410

BUT-"

Batman (1940) Issue #411

There's always an opposing side to every good thing Bruce says about him. He views Jason as a failure but he still loves him and yet can't help putting him down. After Bruce dies, he leaves a message for Jason -

Batman: Battle for the Cowl Issue #3

Like Bruce full on treats him like absolute shit. How could you as a parent tell your son straight to his face that he's a failure and then say that it's your fault?? Somehow this is adding more insult than injury than to just blame him directly.

Bruce and Jason had good and bad times when he was Robin. There many times when Bruce was like "Good job, lab!" and other times when he struggled to deal with Jason. There was one case in particular that soured their relationship irrevocably. Things became really bad between them after that such that Bruce actively fights with himself not to lose his temper at Jason more than he used to.

For example:

Batman (1940) Issue #426

Things get worse and worse, Batman benches him, Jason runs off to Ethiopia, and then you-know-what happens. In summary of their Robin-Batman relationship, Bruce thought he found a good partner in Jason, was happy for a while, but then started believing he made a mistake when Jason used the skills he taught him to go past the limits of what Bruce was acceptable with. The secret Bruce talks about is that one irreversible case I mentioned - Gloria/Felipe - where Jason killed a man. Or atleast Bruce suspects he killed a man.

Batman (1940) Issue #422

Batman (1940) Issue #424

When Jason came back as Red Hood, Batman felt so guilty for the fact that he made Jason robin because then Jason wouldn't have died but also believed that Jason was beyond saving. When Jason was at the hands of the society because of Black Mask who wanted revenge on him for what he did, Bruce almost let Jason die a second time - this time intentionally - before he changed his mind last minute and joined the fight to help him out.

Batman: Under the Red Hood Issue #10

It's this type of relationship I struggle with because Bruce very much loves him and even says so -

Batman: Hush Issue #11

But also guess what tips him off that he's not fighting Jason?

Batman: Hush Issue #11

I call this confusing but Dick calls this something else entirely.

Batman: Battle for the Cowl Issue #3

Tough love.

Maybe, but I guess how I would make out their relationship to be is: if Jason acts within Bruce's expectations, then Bruce loves him. If he doesn't then Bruce doesn't hold back hitting and punching. I don't think their relationship is tough love as much as it is conditional love. There are conditions to the way Jason must act in order for Bruce to love him and if he doesn't act that way then he stops caring about his son. He's happy if Jason comes to gatherings but doesn't particularly care if he doesn't. He leaves Jason alone if he follows his rules but actively goes after him if he doesn't. Both in his Robin days and now, Bruce doesn't tolerate Jason if he acts outside expectation but still loves him and although it's not the kind of love you would appreciate, it's also not the kind you can set aside and call it nothing. It's complicated. That's Jason and Bruce's relationship.

Tim on the other hand, he's very proud of. He thinks Tim is excellent, smart, dependable, and loves him very much.

Batman (2016) Issue #128

But I feel like Bruce takes him for granted.

Bruce was both neglectful and very involved in Tim's life.

Bruce means a lot to Tim in the sense that he was a true father to him.

Batman (1940) Issue #480

Tim's dad Jack gets really worried that Tim might consider Bruce more of a father than him. "Maybe - But I'm your father, Tim. Not him!"

The developing relationship between Bruce and Tim was based originally on need. Bruce needed someone who he could work with and Tim needed someone who could be there for him. As time evolved that need turned into liking which turned into love.

After Jason, Bruce needed someone who listened to him completely. Someone who never questioned him or doubted his orders and Tim was everything Bruce needed and he loved that.

Batman (1940) Issue #467

Bruce invested a LOT of time into Tim's training and he also depends on him heavily but at the same time I feel like he constantly brushes off Tim's words and worries.

Robin (1993) Issue #9

Batman: Urban Legends Issue #10

The classic "I trust you but I know better than you" x 10. And it's this thing that gives me doubts because I get this inexplicable sense of distance in their relationship. Bruce loves, trusts, and cares for him but I feel like there's something missing.

This being said, I realize that there's no clear explanation as to why I feel this way so I'll change the ranking back to "tie" for the two of them like I originally had. Because while Bruce loves Jason, he doesn't tolerate him and while Bruce loves Tim, he kinda disregards him in a way. And between these situations, I can't decide what represents more love or favoritism. I guess a part of me just felt really, REALLY bad for the way Bruce treated Jason. That post kinda shredded my heart so I gave him brownie points on the favoritism ranking list but in hindsight, after all this and writing it all out, I think Bruce loves Tim and Jason equally. It's entirely possible Bruce may actually love Tim more because unlike with Jason, I can't provide evidence of Bruce distancing himself from Tim in loving - only left with more of a sense. So in this case I agree with you, anon. It's very possible.