#not as much of an issue as Lyanna but still there in the fandom

[rosalinesurvived]

Adding onto that post I made on Lyanna’s appearance I also want to call out Elia’s canon appearance. The Martells are “Salty Dornishmen” meaning Elia should be small, black eyed, brown-skinned and having black curls like Arianne. She’s also chronically ill so she should be looking sickly.

[lemonhemlock]

Hi, sorry for this, but I just need to rant about this, or I'll explode. Feel free to delete this 🩷

I saw somewhere it was written that Elia Martell deserved her fate while Lyanna and Rhaegar were just in love and deserved to be happy...

THIS PISSED ME OF SO BADLY LIKE WHAT THE HELL !!!

Lyanna was 16 and even if we overlooked the part where she’s a westerosi woman at that age you know it's wrong to run away from your home to be with a married dude who's got two kids !

As for Rhaegar, I believe he was as mad as his father. leave your kind, beautiful wife and two kids for a 16 year old girl who's about to get married herself !? Yeah, there's definitely something wrong with your brain !

Also, that person painted Lyanna in such an innocent light like I do not believe she was that dumb she knew Robert would be furious, plus her father and brother's did this girl ever consider them ? The answer is no. Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert, and when Rhaegar showed interest, she decided to run away with his stupid ass !

The biggest victim of Rhaegar/Lyanna actions is ELIA MARTELL AND HER CHILDREN !!!

I can agree with Rhaegar being the most responsible for all the shit that happened, but at the same time, I don't believe Lyanna was just a little girl who fell in love with him.

And Yes, Lyanna is considered a child in our timeline, but in her universe and timeline, she was definitely not a child who didn't know how things worked given that she was also a noble woman and educated as well !

hello kitty 🐱🐱🐱

yeah, some rhagar/lyanna stans would do anything to justify rhaegar's actions because they have it in their minds that he was this fairytale prince charming. and, to be fair to them, that's how he is mostly presented in the text, heaped in praise and regret (apart from robert obviously but many fans disregard robert's appraisal because they see him as biased)

i don't hold it against people if they have a particularly idealised view of rhaegar, because you never know how much they've actually studied the text or thought about this issue in the first place. but if one does engage with the fandom on a general basis and reads meta/takes, it's very difficult not to eventually interact with critical analyses of rhaegar. so, even if his story didn't ring any alarm bells from the start, for whatever reason, if you do start thinking about the practicalities, the shadier elements emerge.

leaving all of that aside, if someone were to try and justify rhaegar's actions, then blaming his brutally-murdered wife is not the kind of stance that will win over the fence-sitters 🧍‍♀️ even if elia were an awful person who made rhaegar's life miserable (though there is no proof of this, on the contrary), then she still wouldn't "deserve" a violent murder and to witness her children being murdered in front of her. you'd think a reasonable person would agree with that, but this is the kind of fandom in which fans tell others to kys because they disagree with their opinion on fictional people, so for them it's only natural that being annoying (or any other some such dumb infraction) is such a huge and problematic crime that can only be sanctioned by death.

so it's like. i feel there are some huge behavioural issues at play here or at least an unhealthy amount of internalised misogyny or bully fantasies that are the real culprits here :))

i've outlined my general opinion of lyanna here for whomever is interested

[la-pheacienne]

I think there's a good chunk of the asoiaf readers/fandom that don't see Lyanna and Rhaegar as this tragic love story and blames Rhaegar about Elia's death and everything because of two things.

First, the sonewhat weird age difference. Lyanna dies at 16, and Rhaegar dies at 24. Meaning they must've run away around, 15 and 23.

But GRRM really isn't very good/reasonable with his female characters age.

And second, because of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna 'Queen of Love and Beauty', and the "humiliation of Elia Martell". And yeah, perhaps not Rhaegar's smoothest moment, but you know... Elia's family is planning a Targaryen Restoration. So, it's complex.

Well, at least I think those are part of the reasons.

Sorry about my English, not my 1st language.

Don't worry for the language nonnie, English isn't my first language either, so I make mistakes all the time, in french too.

So about the age difference, for one, I literally ship Daemyra 😂 While GRRM is weird with the age issue, I don't think there is anything weird in that case, sorry. We are in a faux medieval universe, Lyanna was already betrothed and of age for in universe standards and Rhaegar was still really young. I also shipped Cosette and Marius who fell in love with her when she was like 14? They didn't have sex then but my point is, who cares. In my personal life I have diametrically different standards, but that's fiction.

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna instead of his wife, apart from disrespectful to Elia, was also a naive political move, especially if we take into consideration the political context and what followed afterwards. But in Rhaegar's head, at the moment, it was a gallant gesture of reward to Lyanna for being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, while winning the Northerners favour. It absolutely didn't work, but he believed it would work, because he believed that being gallant and chivalrous was the absolute peak qualities of a Crown Prince.

Him leaving with Lyanna was ethically controversial at best. And I say controversial and not downright bad for two reasons:

1) he was in an arranged marriage, that speaks for itself

2) him running away with Lyanna and sticking to her because he loved her was still more authentic, more honorable even (yes I will go there) than staying with his wife and having mistresses all around, which was oh so common at the time (like Robert). What he chose instead was ultimately much more damaging than just keeping his position and fucking around, of course, but that's what choosing to live in an authentic and truthful way gets you. It can destroy you and those around you. That's the tragedy of it. We now know, after the facts, how catastrophic it was, but in Rhaegar's head at the moment, it was the right thing to do. The foolishness of the act itself is proof of Rhaegar's overall sense of morality and honesty, if he just wanted to fuck and have heirs and keep his position, it would have been so easy for him to do that without risking angering his father and the Northerners, possible exile and a damaged reputation. He could have had it all, quite literally. If he had chosen that, probably the war would have been avoided and everyone would be happier and there would be no ASOIAF, but Rhaegar would then be an unethical person.

I see what Rhaegar did more as an "error of judgement" (in the sense it is used for heroes of greek tragedies), than a "vice".

[bohemian-nights]

If Nettles looked like canon!Mysaira (pale skin, white hair, and I believe she even had purple eyes) Rhaenyra wouldn’t have had a problem with her. Because the reason Rhaenyra wasn’t mad with Mysaira was because a. she was useful to her and b. she looked Valyrian. Rhaenyra’s problems with Nettles lie solely in the fact that Rhaenyra is a racist. Not to mention racism in ASOIAF is pretty glossed over (the treatment of the Dornish in both the books and show). Which adds a new perspective in HOTD with Criston (the first thing Alicent says upon seeing Criston is “gods he’s Dornish” in amazement as though the idea hadn’t crossed her mind that he could be that good and still be Dornish) and Mysaira ( were people scandalized because daemon was going to marry a prostitute or become he was going to marry an Asian woman? It gets worse when you realize while even though in the books she’s not Asian she essentially gets deported for having a relationship with daemon. It also adds more context to when she basically tells him she can’t defy the king like he can, that they’d be quick to kill her and not him, as well as the fact she wanted daemon to protect her).

I actually think it’s a two part issue with Missy Anne. Yeah she’s a racist and that’s a big part of why she literally hates Nettles, but Nettles is also a younger (dragon-riding) woman who has the ability to give Daemon something she likely never can(kids). So even if she looked like canon!Mysaria she’d still hate her guts and view her as much more of a threat than Mysaria because of her youth and abilities(she’s the replacement).

Plus, Nettles would still be a dragonseed(aka a bastard) and there is an element of Miss Maegors rant that shows she is classist as well as a racist psychopath.

I will say though that the fandom would definitely view Nettles differently if she were a white blonde woman.

It’s pretty clear their main problem with her is the fact that she’s a Black girl and they refuse to see us as actual multifaceted human beings(see how happy they are with race bending her or saying she should be cut cause why do we need another Blackie, keep the her away from Daemon!).

A white!Nettles probably be treated like how they treat Lyanna and used as another self-insert(they definitely wouldn’t be denying Dettles that’s for sure. The evidence would suddenly be crystal clear and anyone who denied it would be mad).

[mxrgaery]

maesterleia seems to be confused as to why we keep bringing them up. the newer members of asoiaf fandom who have gravitated toward "neutral" bnf circles on here might be wondering too, since they keep talking about fandom drama without knowing fuck all about it (if you've been here longer and still trivialise this then good job for making it clear that you would rather be complicit in bullying than take stock of your own actions) so here is a shorter version. maybe it has something to do with maesterleia being a white person who accused a poc of harrassment and doxxing for the simple crime of responding critically to their public tumblr post. maybe it has something to do with them doubling down instead of apologising for their freak out. maybe it has something to do with their friend gatecrashing a private server and trying to start shit unprovoked and then actually doxxing a muslim woman for the crime of calling out her behaviour.

maybe it’s to do with leia and their mutuals being a bunch of entitled karens who won’t own their behavior. maybe it’s to do with them believing they can gaslight a group of poc into thinking they’re taking it too far while you harass and deplatform as you please. this particular post is very telling of the asoiaf fandom's behaviour toward people who were actually harrassed and who, instead of letting leia and other users like elaena, weirwoodking and even nobodysuspectsthebutterfly walk all over them, decided to push back and talk about this vile behaviour. maybe it’s to do with you, maesterleia and all of you who agree with what she did, being a bunch of hypocrites who deplatform one subfandom for fictional crimes while ignoring your (white) peers enjoying problematic fiction. maybe it’s because you value fictional characters and headcanons over real poc, because, in case it slipped your mind, real people can disagree and aren’t just props you can use to improve your social standing and clout. maybe because instead of owning up to all of this, you are continuing to pretend you’re non-partial.

just to show a little example of why the label "neutrals" is applied to certain asoiaf bloggers, here is a compilation of some of the people who have attacked @aerea-targaryen for the crime of shipping rhaegar/lyanna as well as some mentions of dany antis who love to preach about real world issues and lean on them (with as much insensitivity they can drag out of their white supremacist hearts) to support their anti dany metas and posts and whole ass source blogs while themselves being raging racists and rape apologists. compare this with the approach that r/l stans and dany stans have taken toward sansa stans/martell stans who churn out these posts on the regular. these......"neutrals" take great pride in equating these two things.

so the point here is that your double standards are glaringly obvious and are very very amusing to witness because you ("neutrals"), have convinced yourself that you are actually impartial and because your littany of equally privileged majorly white followers who regularly dismiss the concerns of poc in asoiaf fandom also seem to have adopted this delusion wholeheartedly. after a point, maesterleia, it's just utter shamelessness on your part and on every single person's who continues to pat your back for being a grade a bully.

as owning up to your shitty actions is something you are incapable of, everytime you bark there will be pushback because god fucking damn is everybody tired of you lying with your whole heart. i get it. i really do. you’re sheltered little karens who have never been told no. you’re shocked and confused and even a little bit disgusted that people (non-whites no less!) are prepared to disagree with you. you think you can sweep this under the rug and it’ll all go away, hopefully along with those you harassed.

sorry, but that's not going to happen.

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

It’s funny that person is still in Elia’s tag like even if we were deranged what are they trying to gain?

Of course they are.

It’s honestly baffling how obsessed they are with Elia fans. They’ve been targeting us for months and they pathologically do they same thing every time.

They go into Elia’s main tag and try to make people upset first it was ranting about Elia writers and how they write when we mentioned it’s a brutal double standard to try and dictate what fans of one character write and not the other they flew into a rage.

Afterwards we had Summer is for Dorne and the same individual who is currently in Elia’s tag every day started using Summer is for Dorne to mock us for having a fun event when we have never actively participated in their events because we want nothing to do with them.

Funny enough this individual threw a fitful rage when a random blogger reblogged their post with tags they didn’t agree with, this same individual also was furious when anyone used the main tags for their fav characters and we respectfully followed their wishes and started using anti tags.

These people have been obsessively focused on what Elia fans do and it’s sick. I’m not sure what their goal is if they’re trying to bully us out of the fandom or making people believe that Elia fans are so fucking crazy for liking her but it’s blatantly disingenuous. These people have multiple entire blogs dedicated to their favs and have had issues with numerous different people because of the silliest arguments such as “Lyanna stark loving Ned best” or “Lyanna Stark mourned her family”. Trying to claim people who like Elia Martell are “crazy” is so silly when your favs are just as much two meaningless useless plot devices to the equivalency of Elia Martell by your standards.

I’m not surprised they’re doing their usual act though because these are also the people that swear there is a fandom war, that they’re edgy rebels for liking universally well liked characters such as Rhaegar and Lyanna. They also created the whole dirty fucking neutral spectacle because their fandom experience revolves around conflict and fighting with people who don’t fall in line with them.They’ve been blocked by so many people so of course they resort to raging in the main character tags.

No one cares if you don’t like Elia Martell’s character, literally no one cares but literal children know it’s common courtesy to use the anti tag. Of course though these individuals don’t care they’re just desperate for attention and conflict as they always are and they can live in Elia’s main tag as they’ve always have no one has ever really cared besides to laugh at them for it? Lmao. She’s still going to have many fans because like it not fans isn’t just exclusive to the characters you think people are allowed to like. Also sitting in a characters main tag that you actively hate just shows how much of a clown you are and you are welcome to be the entertainment for all.

[cellsshapedlikestars]

If you are accepting prompts--how about Sansa and Jon being on opposite sides of a political contest? Prime Minister Rhaegar Targaryen is forced to call a referendum for Northern independence, as demanded by the Northern Nationalists party. He is campaigning in the North for a United Westeros, taking his second wife Lyanna Stark and their son Jon along, toshow how hollow all talk if Northern independence is. However, this means that Jon keeps running into his Stark cousins, particularly Sansa Stark, who accompanies her parents to every debate and campaign rally...

I've been sitting on this for a while (and yes, I do see all the anon prompts, I promise!) and I've sort of been writing this on and off since I got it. The thing is, I have no point of reference for these politics, I'm assuming you wanted something like the Scottish independence movement, which I have almost no knowledge of as I am a dumb American who can barely handle American politics without spiraling into anxiety and depression. So, I've sort of talked around the specifics and hopefully I haven't gotten anything too crazy wrong.

Also, you mention his Stark cousins, but... well, I cannot do modern incest. I can handle them being cousins in olden times where it was acceptable & common (I can't even handle the sibling incest aspect in any time period), but I was writing this modern and that's a hard nope for me. I know it's a fairly predominant part of this fandom and if it's your thing, absolutely have at it! There is no kink shaming in this house. It's just not for me and I couldn't write it, sorry!

Also, as usual, this turned out longer than I intended since these are supposed to be drabbles mostly. But 'drabbles' for me always end up like 2k words

.

Jon sits in the window seat of the jet, headphones on and turned up. Somewhere behind him, he knows his parents are sitting, likely talking strategy. He knows dad wants him to join in, but Jon's in no mood to talk politics. It's what got him in this situation to begin with.

That stupid reporter. Jon's stupid response.

Jon! How do you feel about Northern Independence?

I say let them.

It's what he believes, honestly – if the North wants independence, why not? The rest of the SK treats them like shit anyway, why not let them break off, like Dorne did? It's not a naming issue – they're still called the Seven Kingdoms despite losing Dorne decades ago, so what if they're technically only six now? Jon knows it's about more than that – it's economics and politics and... well, pride. The SK can't lose another piece of their kingdom – nevermind that piece has been conquered and beaten down multiple times over hundreds of years. Northern Independence isn't a new concept – it's just been met with military resistance every time and stamped out. But they aren't in the middle ages anymore.

For a moment he turns his head to look behind him – to see mom with her head bowed in conversation with dad and something ugly twists in Jon's stomach.

He knows dad only married mom because she got pregnant – because his political career was just taking off and a mistress and bastard would have ruined him. And mom, she'd been so young, she's convinced herself he married her for love. Jon swears that mom used to be different. She used to argue with Rhaegar all the time about politics, he even remembers her bringing up Northern Independence when Jon was just a kid. But over the years she's had to play the perfect wife for him and somewhere along the way it just... stuck. Mom isn't his mom anymore. No, mom is what Rhaegar's political advisors want her to be.

So even though Jon had wanted to protest this trip, there's also a part of him desperately clinging to the hope that when they get North, mom will snap out of it. When she's home, maybe she'll be his mom again.

Especially since the leader of the opposition is an old friend of hers.

Ned Stark.

Dad doesn't react to much, he's a politician to his core, so seeing him get riled anytime Ned Stark is on TV is notable. In fact, there's a rebellious part of Jon that already likes Ned Stark simply for the fact that dad hates him so much. There's more to like than just that, Jon knows – Ned Stark seems like one of those politicians that's doing the job because they want to make a difference. They're rare, nowadays, but Jon's been surrounded by politicians his whole life and he can spot the do-gooders from a mile away.

He thinks it's partly why dad hates it – Ned Stark doesn't use the same underhanded tactics Rhaegar's used to, and from everything Jon's heard, there's nothing to use against Ned. The only skeleton dad's advisors had ever found tucked away in Ned Stark's closet had been that his wife, Catelyn, had originally dated his older brother Brandon, who died in a car accident. They'd begun dating and married shortly after - a minor scandal that hadn't gained any traction, considering they've been married for over twenty years with five children.

Dad was hoping to get somewhere with the youngest daughter, Arya, who always seemed more wild than the rest of her siblings (except maybe the youngest, Rickon). The problem is that she's never done anything really wrong and the North loves her. The oldest son Robb is as perfect a son as any politician could hope for and Jon sometimes wonders if dad would rather have Robb than Jon.

The other two sons are still fairly young and going after them would only make dad look like the bad guy. Then there's Sansa.

Jon remembers her from growing up – not that he'd ever met her, but they're both kids of prominent politicians and he's seen her in photos since she was old enough to walk. A proper lady, he remembers even the southern press naming her. Perfect, just like her older brother.

A hand on his shoulder jolts him out of his thoughts and he turns to see mom, who motions at him to take off his headphones.

“We're landing in a half hour and your father would like to go over your role,” she tells him with a perfect, bland smile. (She hasn't been his mother for a very long time.)

“I know my role,” he says and he can't help the bitter tone to his voice. “Stay quite, don't talk to the press. Pretty easy to remember.”

“And yet you still managed to nearly undermine my entire campaign with one flippant remark,” dad's voice calls over from his seat, low and smooth, though Jon absolutely hears the annoyance underneath it.

“Oh, he's just a child,” mom says, trying to play the peacekeeper like she always does.

“He's twenty, he's hardly a child,” dad starts, but Jon doesn't listen to the rest. He pulls his headphones back over his ears and looks back out the window and tries to pretend he's anywhere else.

…

By the time they reach Winterfell Castle, Jon is in a bad mood.

Not that he hadn't been before, but he's not allowed his headphones in the limo and so he'd had to listen to dad talk nonstop about his two favorite topics: Jon's failure as a son and how much he hates Ned Stark. And the way mom doesn't even try to defend Ned Stark like she used to infuriates Jon even more.

Jon hates his tuxedo and he hates that they barely had any time between landing and having to get ready for this dinner and he hates that he's going to have to smile and shake hands with a bunch of people who hate him on principle, simply for who his father is. For what his father represents.

When he does step out of the limo, he ignores every photographer and reporter that shouts his name, eager to get any sort of scandal out of him.

He doesn't blame them for this, he's given them enough over the years – not just his apparent support of Northern Independence, but everything else he's done to gain his notoriety. His reputation as a heartbreaker and a playboy that's mostly over-exaggerated, that time he punched a teacher (though to be fair, Thorne deserved it)... Teenage rebellion, they'd written it off as, but he's no longer a teenager and he knows he should grow up and stop doing things to piss off his father at some point.

(His favorite one had been sleeping with that investigative journalist when he was seventeen. She'd been older than him by a good few years and he'd known she was using him to write an article, but he was using her just as much to infuriate his father. His only true regret is that Ygritte's article hadn't done any real lasting damage to Rhaegar's reputation.)

Inside, there aren't any reporters but there are politicians everywhere and that's worse. He does the bare minimum to not cause an issue – he shakes hands and says hello, though he refuses to smile while doing it. They already hate him for being Rhaegar Targaryen's son. They already hate him for being Northern-traitor Lyanna Snow's son.

He keeps an eye on mom to see how she's doing and his heart twists painfully in his chest when he sees her. She has a bright smile on her face and anyone who didn't know her would think she's fine, but Jon can see how pale she is under her makeup. This is the first time she's been back in the North since she married dad and he has a sudden, sharp pang of hatred for Rhaegar – for getting her pregnant, for marrying her, for never letting her go back. For turning her into this.

He can tell the moment Ned Stark enters the room because mom freezes. And sure enough, there he is – beautiful wife at his side, the three adult children with him. Robb, Sansa, Arya. Jon's eyes scan over them – Robb with his perfect hair and smile, an easy way about him that's always come through even on camera. Sansa standing poised and almost too beautiful to believe – Jon's only ever seen her on film and somehow she's even more unreal in person. Arya, who by all accounts hates politics as much as Jon does, stands firmly by her family and Jon gets the sense she only hates the system, not her dad. Not like Jon.

As Jon scans the room, he can see other families here that he recognizes – the Greyjoys, including Robb Stark's best friend Theon. The Manderlys, the Karstarks, the Ryswells, the Boltons, the Mormonts. More families than Jon cares to remember.

There's a sense of someone behind him and he turns just enough to see that dad has come up to stand next to him. For a moment, dad just stands there before turning his head ever so slightly and bringing his mouth close to Jon's ear and he says so low Jon can barely even hear it - “if you do anything to embarrass me tonight, there will be consequences. If you do anything that makes it seem like you support this pathetic independence movement, there will be consequences. Do you understand me?”

Jon feels blind rage that winds so hot in his chest it makes him shake and his vision narrow. He has to close his eyes and take a deep breath before he can answer, and he grits out, “of course.” Dad nods and moves away, putting on his best politician smile as he goes to greet Howland Reed.

Mom shoots him a concerned look, but Jon ignores her. He can feel it building in him – that rebelliousness the press likes to talk about so much. He wants to hurt Rhaegar. For everything – for his mother, for all the people dad's stepped on and hurt. He wants to embarrass him, consequences be damned.

Just as he's thinking this, his eyes catch on copper hair and bright blue eyes.

Sansa Stark.

Darling of the press. Perfect Northern princess.

It takes root in his mind, against his better judgment. What would make Rhaegar more furious than an affair between his son and the daughter of Ned Stark?

Jon can't imagine Sansa would be amenable to the suggestion, not like Ygritte had been – there is no mutually beneficial agreement here. She would never agree to do something that might embarrass her father (and once again, Jon is reminded of the, pun intended, stark difference between his relationship with his father and the Stark children's relationship with Ned. Jon has never even met them in person and he knows this).

So he can't approach her with any sort of offer or plan. No, he'd have to pretend it was real.

He's going to have to seduce Sansa Stark.

[tweedstoat]

im sorry, but reading ur last couple posts it kinda sounds like you think Ned should have been more overtly racist and bc he wasn’t grrm is racist, but on the flip side giving arya prejudice thoughts also makes grrm a racist and a bad writer? like grrm for sure has dodgy bits but you’re giving him a bit of a no win scenario here. if he had made the targs black like originally planned do you think that would have been better or worse? (1/2)

ok im going to address this point by point because there is a lot of reaching and misunderstanding here

1. I am not here to present a ‘win’ scenario for GRRMs writing. I am discussing the shortcomings of the way he writes racism and yet uses racist tropes. A lot of these are as you state ‘no win’ scenarios because he decided to craft a world where racism exists while having extremely few characters of colour in important positions, AND while using racist tropes. There are many no win scenarios simply because of this tension.

2. I dont want Ned to be a more vocally racist character? And please point out where I said that Grrm was racist because Ned wasnt portrayed as having overt anti-dornish sentiment? I stated that because GRRM created a world where racism exists everything now has to be analysed bearing that in mind. It’s the same as stating that because misogyny exists in universe male characters are possibly (and likely) somewhat misogynistic and their interactions with with women and the way they treat female characters must be analysed in such a way.

Me stating that anti-dornish racism could have been a possible reason why Ned reacted less vehemently to the deaths of Elia and her children is me analysing it within the frame-work that GRRM set up. I’m using this to point out that when white authors add fantasy racism into a story they dont see the raicst implications of what they are writing because they dont understand the way racism impacts almost everything in real life.

For example in our world when non-white children or women go missing or are murdered their deaths are much less publicized than when white women or children get murdered or go missing. So yes racism affects the way that people are treated in such scenarios and when you decide to include fantasy racism in your story you have now included all of this extra stuff and need to do work to make sure that what you are writing does not perpetuate or enforce racism.

3. I literally never said arya having racist thoughts made GRRM a racist and bad writer. I have no clue where you got that. I used Aryas remark to highlight how anti-dornish sentiment clearly exists in the North because 9 year old children dont develop racist ideas in a vaccuum.

4. Where did I ever state that everything that happens to the martells was a micro aggression? I’m also confused as to where you got the word “micro” from??? Because idk about you but things like characters not really caring about the rape and death of a non-white woman and the deaths of her biracial children, a child being shunned because they “smelled dornish” and dornish women being hypersexualised in the narrative are some pretty macro aggressions.

5. Finally you deciding to ‘not discuss the essoss stuff’ is missing one of the main points of what I am trying to say. GRRM’s writing isnt racist because sometimes bad things happen to the Martells. The combination of his writing of the dothraki as savages with no introspection when compared to the free folk, the brutal killing of many martells for shock value, the contrast between the way he portrays Lyanna and the way he portrays Elia, the exotic/erotic trope he uses when writing dornish women, the fact that he hasnt named the princess of dorne while all her male counterparts have recieved names AND backstories and the fact that he made a white character the centre of the essoss plotline and a whole host of other decisions combine to make his writing....kinda racist. If it happened one time it may be a coincidence. If it happens about 10 times its a pattern.

Would it be racist if the Starks were written as inuit and then split up? Probably - given the history of murder and brutal seperation indigenous families have faced! Would making the more visibly indigenous stark children plainer while making the more white passing stark children better looking be racist? Probably - considering the way that eurocentric beauty standards are still upheld! With GRRM his issue is that he doesn't use 1 or 2 racist tropes in isolation. That could be a mistake. He uses several in succession.

Regarding the Targaryens being Black I think that if he wrote them in exactly the same manner (unlikely given how he treats other characters of colour) it likely wouldnt be racist but that the fandom probably would take it as an excuse to be racist.

So now that weve gotten through all of that straw-man criticism about my “take” I’m actually going to suggest some ways that he could have still written about fantasy racism without accidentally perpetuating it

1. If he is going to brutally kill off Elia he needs to AT LEAST have more discussions surrounding her death. Who Elia was as a person (dont just make her a sad cardboard cut out - I want to see some background on who she was outside of being an abandoned wife and mother). One story about Elia by Oberyn isnt enough. I also want to see more societal shock about Elias death because theres a weirdly small amount. The rape and murder of the crown princess shouldve been an extremely huge scandal and should have horrified many more people.

2. Theres no real way to kill off two non white children and have their white sibling be a prophetic hero without dicey implications so Aegon needs to survive and be the actual Aegon and not a secret blackfyre. We dont know if he is a secret blackfyre or not so this may just be a case of the fandom taking an excuse to be racist and running with it

3. Have more Dornish characters that dont die brutally for shock value (Elia, Oberyn, Quentyn). Furthermore when you only have 2 povs of dornish characters,,,,and you kill one of them off, yes that is not a great look

4. Dont introduce the only WoC pov in the whole damn book nipple first and as a blatant play on the brown seductress when she has legitimate political concerns and greivances

And thats only the dornish characters! With the dothraki and most of essoss just.....anything aside from what he’s done would be better. But of course im sure none of this is actually racist writing decisions. No its simply complex characterisation of course!!1!

[esther-dot]

Sure I didn't mean it as ethnically Dornish, but there is the HUGE foreshadowing of the Dornishman's wife, dornish peppers etc that come into the equasion. No cultural usurpation involved here, just how Martin uses the words to foreshadow things. Also, in political terms it's still to be demonstrated why tf R took Lyanna to Dorne and why he was in accordance with the Daynes (Ashara-FAegon connection), and how Ned found out about that.

(Continuation of this convo)

Almost everything about Rhaegar makes me go: “WTF?! No, seriously, what the ever loving fuck is wrong with you dude?!” Taking Lyanna to Dorne while he leaves his wife and children behind where they are brutally murdered

^ me @ Rhaegar each time I think about him.

I took your comment the way you intended and didn’t elaborate/explain what we meant because I plan to write more about it later but I have to find the quotes I collected for it first 😬

I forget about how gross the rest of the fandom is when I go too long without it crashing into our sphere, so I didn’t even think about the need to clarify what we were talking about. But, this is a hot button issue because Dorne fans get weird anons arguing about the ethnicity of the Dornish and arguing that Aegon isn’t real or if he is real how he is violent and arguing that Elia is actually ok with Rhaegar running off with a teenager etc. They flood the tags with this crap too which makes it a sensitive topic. That is made worse by the fact that while the author writes some characters as racist, sometimes he utilizes racist tropes, so it’s really hard to engage with any of this because there are layers and layers of grossness. I mean, the fandom does all of that regarding Dornish characters, say nasty things about Quentyn and Arianne, but as the anon objecting to calling Jon Dornish pointed out, they still want to consider Dany a WOC and argue that it’s racist for Sansa not to like her.

Aegon matters to Dorne in a way that Jon never will, we all know that. I mean, you can’t read lines like this,

Prince Doran frowned. "That is so, Ser Balon, but the Lady Nym is right. If ever a man deserved to die screaming, it was Gregor Clegane. He butchered my good sister, smashed her babe's head against a wall. I only pray that now he is burning in some hell, and that Elia and her children are at peace. This is the justice that Dorne has hungered for. I am glad that I lived long enough to taste it. At long last the Lannisters have proved the truth of their boast and paid this old blood debt." (ADWD, The Watcher)

and not get goosebumps to think that Aegon is Elia’s son, that her son will defeat the Lannisters, that her son will claim the throne with Arianne at his side. And then we cry at this line,

His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?" (ADWD, Arianne I)

because we know what happened to Quentyn, that the Martells will side against Dany, and what she will do to KL, to Aegon, when she comes to Westeros. All of this is deeply moving, and I believe that Jon in turn will want justice for his brother after Dany kills him. 😭

Anyway, Martin just uses the Dorne references for R+L=J purposes, so even though it’s a little troubling because of all the baggage from the books and the fandom nonsense, it’s a valid observation.

I don’t know how much Martin will ever divulge about pre canon events, but the way that Meera speaks about Lyanna is full of reverence, presenting her actions as the gods answering a prayer, so their astonishment that Bran doesn’t know the story didn’t only read as “but this is your aunt!!!!” but as a story with great significance to them. So, I am hoping that Martin is planning to use Howland for a lot of info here? He hasn’t appeared on the page in canon yet, but that mention of him never leaving his swamps feels like a “this man will be making a grand entrance at some point” indicator.

[janiedean]

your villain origin story had a hate for ned and most of the stark brothers and thought sansa was the least loved stark and atuff. i remember because i used to stan sansa and her meta would keep cropping up but everytime there was so much shit about how ned preferred arya not sansa etc, even fics about that. when ???? and idek where the brothers preferring arya came over lol, if anything the reason arya and jon were so close was that they both felt like outcasts. sansa was the ideal daughter, if ned worried about arya more it was because she reminded him of lyanna and we all know what happened with her. asoiaf's world is not the best for women and but even in the upper classes if women weren't traditionally pretty + feminine they would likely NOT have a good life (some northern houses excluded), ofc he worried about her?? but i don't see how you can get "neglectful father" from that lol, not to mention all of sansa's positive memories with bran and robb. (i think they also got mad that ned didn't want sansa to witness beheadings and punishments when he let bran witness it lmfao like maybe consider the world of the books?????)

i mean write what you want and all, but her crowd had it in their heads that sansa was the misunderstood, less-loved, underdog protagonist of the books which... was not the case lol. it was projecting 21st century fandom politics onto sansa when in the world of the books sansa definitely had an upper hand before everything went to shit because she was a beautiful aristocrat who was good at her courtesies and singing and sewing and knowing what to say and all the who's who, the ideal daughter/lady. it's after she becomes a political prisoner and her worldview is shaken at the end of book 1 that she becomes an "underdog" with 0 privilege.

I mean.... yes that was pretty much her schtick but again she was like AH I READ THE BOOKS EXTREMELY ATTENTIVELY and she hadn't for shit bc again I only read the 'raised as a sexual object' meta other than that complete amount of crap that was the robb is a dick one which makes me suspect was the first time someone told her her analysis was bullshit bc she was pretty virulent when telling me I didn't understand my favorite character lmfao but like... that's what stayed in 80% of showsansa fandom atm and I wish like hell it wasn't because it looks like they all like sansa for being cerseilite when the entire point is that she's all the contrary lmao

but like the arya villification + ned/cat villainizing when like you can argue they weren't perfect but not that they didn't... love... their children plus absolutely not understanding the basic point that what will make the starks thrive at the end is that they actually do love each other and have the kind of bond that will get them to survive the shit they got even when their parents + robb are dead and died in that shit way and not that they backstab each other which dnd didn't get but the moment you open the books it's p damned obvious so honestly I think she basically went and decided sansa was the trope she's deconstructing and banked on the 'people hate feminine women' angle when like... yeah she got hate from fandom but in-verse she has the upper hand in comparison to arya as you say and feminine women in-verse automatically have an upper hand in society anyway bc if they don't perform we all see how it goes but anyway she completely interpreted stuff avoiding the context, the worldbuild and the circumstances the characters grew up in and minimizing things and not using the same standards of judgment which was wild but at the end of it I'm still sad that I couldn't manage to actually ask her for a cut of her favorite white boy t-shirt sales since she had to put them down a week after that shop opened *rolls eyes* and with this I mean that you can't criticize sansa because she was eleven-twelve when she did most wrong things she did WHICH I AGREE WITH but at the same time robb at fifteen is the worst for having thought with his dick when he had sex with jeyne which like.... okay he's not trained to be a king, his bff betrayed him, he thinks he caused the deaths of his brothers, has had canonically obvious instances of 'I HAVE TO PERFORM TO MY UTTERMOST BEST OR PEOPLE WILL THINK I'M WEAK' and repressed anger issues and he's fifteen or sixteen but he's thinking with his dick when he has sex with a girl who was being nice to him? like if sansa being a kid means it's explainable/understandable then robb is also fifteen which is not an adult where I come from but nah he was a dick X°DDD okay X°DDDDDDD and she did that with each single char never mind the indecent jon bashing when in the s6 finale he didn't say ACTUALLY MY SISTER SHOULD BE QUEEN which,,,,,, they elected him to fight the zombies and he's been doing that since S1 in which way sansa had more qualifications in an elective monarchy??? X°DDD just.... I'm really glad she seemingly isn't around much anymore because my friend those were takes we're all better off without

[samwpmarleau]

How do you think the Martell family dynamics would have changed if Elia and her children had lived? Do you think Oberyn would've named his fifth daughter Elia if his sister was alive? Would Arianne and Quentyn have been closer? (Personally, I think they'd be one of the happier, most functioning families in Westeros, but that's because I want nothing but good things for them at all times.)

This post and this post touch on that a bit, though are centered more around what the Martells would do re: the crown if Elia lived. This more in-depth answer to your ask got a lot longer than intended, so I’m putting it under a cut.

I don’t think the dynamics strictly between Elia and her brothers would change all that much, honestly. Elia and Oberyn have always been really tight, and that I think would continue. I do think Doran and Elia would grow a lot closer, which canonically they weren’t really by virtue of Doran being nine years older and fostered away from Sunspear most of the time, but they still wouldn’t have that same history together that she and Oberyn did so there’d probably still be a gulf there.

Perhaps the most stark (heh) difference would be between Doran, Mellario, and their kids. With Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon alive and well, Doran would not be caught up in getting vengeance, he wouldn’t be brokering arrangements to send Arianne to Tyrosh, and Quentyn might not even need to be forcibly fostered away either. Doran could try harder to sue for peace with the Yronwoods, or Elia could try, or maybe Aegon would be sent there instead of Quentyn. He may very well still have to be due to reparations for Oberyn’s foolishness, but at the very least, Elia would be able to temper the massive rift that caused between Doran and Mellario.

Speaking of which, while Doran and Mellario would still have the normal couple squabbles and Mellario would still feel the culture clash, I think there’s every likelihood they’d stay together. Elia felt a massive culture clash as well when she married Rhaegar, for example, and had to deal with unfamiliar and harsh realities where her ethnicity and society were Othered.

Mind you, to my recollection the Dornish don’t seem to have any particular disdain for the Essosi (Aliandra married one in Drazenko Rogare and I don’t remember anyone taking issue with Mellario herself either), but Mellario did canonically feel like an outsider. So Elia commiserating with that, having first-hand experience, I think would help a lot. And vice versa! While Elia did have female friends, she never had a sister, so I think she and Mellario could come together in that respect.

There would be a profound change, too, in Arianne. Doran would never be pursuing a Targaryen restoration, thus would never write that letter about making Quentyn the Prince of Dorne (with the intent of Arianne being queen), thus their relationship would never become so fractured, or at least not because of that. The domino effect extending to Arianne and Quentyn: Arianne would have no need to be jealous or angry towards her brother, so their relationship would be far better than it is in canon. Perhaps they’d be just as close as Elia and Oberyn, even.

As for Elia Sand, I don’t see any reason why Oberyn wouldn’t name her after his sister. The main reason in canon was to honor her, and that wouldn’t change here. After all, Oberyn’s three other children by Ellaria were also named after family members — Obella = Oberyn, Dorea = Doran, and Loreza presumably named after his mom. Oberyn was closest with Elia and would be ever so happy that she was back in Dorne, so it makes perfect sense that he’d give his daughter her name.

So yeah, I think your assessment is spot on: the Martells would indeed be one of the happiest, most functional families in Westeros. Sure, they’d have their issues, and Elia would undoubtably have some aftereffects from what she suffered due to Rhaegar and Aerys, plus there’s the matter of her kids being half-Targaryen and royal by blood, but returning to Dorne again would be healing for everyone.

It would also make a difference outside of Dorne. What about the threat Rhaenys and Aegon pose to Robert? What about them being lingering reminders of Rhaegar? Would Viserys and Dany go to Dorne? I feel it’s very probable they would, since the Martells are the only family they have left...though, of course, Dany wasn’t born until 284, so would Rhaella have gone to Dorne once Rhaegar and Aerys died instead of Dragonstone? Being given proper medical care and less stress, would she never have died? Would she, Viserys, and Dany stay in Dorne or would they, for example, go to Essos to start completely over?

Would Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon being alive mean Ned was a whole lot closer to Robert and didn’t have quite as much PTSD from the war, since one of the major sources of that is the slaughtering of Elia and the kids? On that note, what would the relationship be like between the remaining Starks and the Martells? Would Elia being front and center to Aerys’s tyranny mean she’d be sympathetic to Ned’s plight, or would her also being front and center to Rhaegar’s betrayal, and therefore ostensibly Lyanna’s, mean she would have none? Would Ned tell her that Lyanna didn’t stay with Rhaegar willingly? Would he tell her about Jon? Without the falling out that he and Robert had over Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon being killed, would Ned even have found Lyanna, let alone before she died? What about the Kingsguard? Would Rhaenys and Robb get together and be an amazing power couple?

And on and on the hypotheticals go. The books and fandom downplay Elia’s importance to a disgusting degree, and yet a frankly ridiculous amount of things and people would be altered had she lived, even more so had her children also lived.

[jackoshadows]

So just to put this out there with regards to some messages I got in my inbox.

As someone who really likes Jon and Arya, my interaction with asoiaf fandom is limited to browsing the Jon Snow and Arya Stark tags and then getting asoiaf content on my dash from a few Jon, Arya, Dany and Theon fans that I follow.

So I pretty much don’t interact with other sections of fandom or know what’s happening with them. I had a few angry Jaime fans in my inbox after I made a Jaime critical post (and even tagged it anti-Jaime Lannister) and when they did not let up after I addressed a few of their comments, I ended up ignoring them. And that’s it. So I have no issues with Braime or any other shippers. I even follow some nice folks who love Sansa and even ship Jonsa as a fanon ship and who follow me! Shocking, I know. But it’s never been about the ships and characters for me. Just the people who peddle nonsense and then instead of debating the content of these posts, make personal attacks on the posters.

For example, as I mentioned above, I only browse the Jon and Arya tags, I have blocked the Jonsa tag and several Jonsa shippers - so what I see everyday on the tags is limited. And still, and still I tend to come across nonsense. I end up talking about Sansa most of the time because it’s usually Sansa stans on the Jon and Arya tags talking shit about Jon and Arya. Sometimes I ignore these posts because it’s just not worth it. Other times, I am like Oh no they didn’t and end up making a passive aggressive rant post 😂 in response.

As I mentioned in another post, I really don’t want to talk about Sansa. As a character she does not interest me as much. But her hypocritical fans tearing down Jon Snow and Arya Stark, undermining their relationship, twisting them into the complete opposite of what GRRM has written for them or saying the most, nonsensical, out there, idiotic things about these characters has me going

and pushes me to respond and point out their hypocrisies and double standards by highlighting Sansa’s own flaws and deficiencies - which these fans ignore, white wash or justify while extrapolating from, highlighting or amplifying Jon, Dany and Arya’s own flaws and mistakes.

I know Dany fans have a hard time on tumblr - I used to see anti-Dany posts on the Jon Snow tag all the time but it’s much better now that I have blocked the Jonsa tag. I also don’t have to see Sophie Turner’s smug Sansa with her bad wig and constantly constipated looks show up on the tags all the time. The Jonsa tag block has really improved the Jon Snow tag ten fold even if some untagged nonsense gets through.

So yeah. Not much idea about the drama/toxicity in other sections of the asoiaf fandom and other shipper stuff. Just the drama with these Sansa/Jonsa stans is tiresome enough. I am waiting for the day when TWoW comes out (Please George 🥺) and we can go back to discussing actual book content and just ignoring all the toxic nutjobs and the idiot branch of the fandom. 

And as an aside, if TWoW does come out, I am looking forward more towards the reaction of these so called neutral, unbiased asoiaf experts than the idiot Jonsa shippers. As I already wrote about in another post, Jonsa shippers are like flat earthers/Qanon/anti vaxxer nutjobs - no amount of book material or text is going to convince them. They are just going to keep replacing Arya with Sansa and talk about how Jonsa is happening.

The so called unbiased neutrals on the other hand - they know their credibility rests on the pretense of being experts on the text. I can’t wait to see them backtrack and pretend that this is what they said would happen as Jon becomes KITN, Sansa is disinherited, Arya has Lyanna’s beauty, is a leader of people and plays a big role in the North, Dany does not burn down KL, accidentally or otherwise and the rat cook plays more of a role in the Starks taking back Winterfell than Sansa Stark does.

[aegonbeingfakeisracist]

I’ve probably brought up my annoyance with the fandom obsession with the idea of Elia Sand being unlike her namesake and the theories that Aegon will fall for her over Arianne and all that. Partially, that’s due to my resentment of Rhaegar and belief that Aegon would have absolutely no desire to repeat the past. But now that I’m thinking about it again, I have an even bigger issue with that theory, and that bigger issue is that not only does it romanticize Rhaegar/Lyanna grossly, it disregards the text of what we know about Elia’s own story. It’s another example of taking Dornish characters and contorting them to fit roles in which they don’t belong. Just like how fandom treats Elia Martell, just like it treats Arianne.

Throughout her preview chapters, Arianne is deeply concerned about Elia’s wildness and impulsiveness. And that’s not because she wants to “control” her and force her to conform to gender norms or any such nonsense, it’s because they live in dangerous times and she believes that Elia has to be aware of that. Arianne doesn’t care that Elia rides and jousts and kisses, she cares that Elia’s running off alone is dangerous, she cares that Elia is kissing much older men. Arianne’s protective instinct flares up when she sees Elia kissing Feathers, because Elia is a child. She tells her to kiss as many boys as she wants when they’re safe at home in Dorne. She tells her to stop talking about her father and jousting until they’re back at home. Elia is extremely important to Arianne, and Arianne is protective, because she’s still a child and they’re not in Sunspear where it’s safe anymore.

It all comes back to the fact that Elia is fourteen, because she’s fourteen.  Fourteen. Fourteen. She’s barely older than Sansa. She’s about the age that Lyanna was at Harrenhal. And if we accept it as true that part of the point of her character is to draw parallels with Lyanna, then, well...it’s being portrayed negatively! A romantic involvement between a girl barely in her teens and someone significantly older is bad. If anything happens between Elia and Aegon, it’s bad. It will be Arianne failing the cousin she’s supposed to protect.

[fromtheboundlesssea]

I have to get this off of my chest. Where the hell did this crazy theory that Daenerys was gona get pregnant by Jon come from? Like seriously these Jonerys and Dany fans concocted this ridiculous theory like where did it come from? What b/c they had one conversation about her infertility, and Tyrion asking her about the line of succession? Like do they think? Cause if they did they'd realize that she was never gonna get pregnant. She and Daario were having sex for 2 whole seasons and she still-

I don’t spend too much time in that side of the fandom, but here are my thoughts:

They probably thought the clues that D had no idea what to actually do after she ruled, like who the heck her successor would even be (when Westeros had just come off years of war due to inheritance issues) to be foreshadow for her having a baby.

They probably hought Miri Max Duur’s basically telling D that she will never have children as an actual prophecy when we’ve been shown time and time again to take every word of a prophecy with a grain of salt (like the YMBQ prophecy for Cersei, like, duh, that’s kind of how it always go with succession of queens).

They probably thought only a man with Targaryen heritage could give her a baby, dismissing, you know Elia and Lyanna and pretty much every freaking non TargxTarg pairing in history. I don’t honestly know.

They also seem to think that D would be a good mother which... not from what I’ve seen. She’s be like Cersei, picking favorites like she does with her dragons. She claims her dragons as children and still uses them as weapons. She has no patience that would be required for children. I forget who it was, but someone had a meta about how, every time in the books, she chooses her identity as the Mother of Dragons, she denies the possibility of being a true mother in general.

I don’t know why they wanted it so badly. I also don’t know why they think a JD child would have been healthy. They were more closely related than siblings. I know some people think it was because of Miri, but I think Rhaego would have been born the way he was even if blood magic wasn’t at work. D’s dna is fragile as it is due to the constant incest. Her family tree is almost practically a freaking straight line.

[karynlibrarian]

I read the post you reblogged and I can't believe how naive I am sometimes. Whenever I read "sansa alone at her coronation is book sansa’s worst nightmare", I thought it was related with Sansa's family not being with her. About how the show didn't include Bran or Arya or Jon or even Brienne in the party, because they are Sansa's family and friends and important people for her. But apparently, as usually is surrounding Sansa, it was about her not having a husband. Ugh.

I think there were people who meant it that way as well! Fandom is never really a hivemind, so at the time I saw both ‘why weren’t there any family/friends there’ and ‘the Stark line is ending because Sansa didn’t get married on screen’ versions of it. It’s still not going to be her worst nightmare though; even if the people she loves weren’t physically there Sansa knew they were alive and fairly safe, which is a much better position than she was in for most of the series.

The coronation scene issue was the culmination of something that had been building for a while; the lack of Northerners in the Northern storyline Since Lyanna Mormont was the only Northerner they bothered to develop it was either fill the place with visitors or extras. Or Lord Glover I guess, where did he get to? I understand why they could never have cast all the book characters, but it ended with the North down to Starks and generic Northern Lords. Set up a couple more secondary characters in season 5/6 instead of relying on Davos and Lord Royce and the problem goes away. I mean, as problems with the show go it was fairly minor, but it still annoyed me. In the end I’m happy with what we got; the people Sansa’s going to be leading choosing her, even if it wasn’t the ideal version of the scene.  

[thewitchqueenofharrenhal]

How do you think the fandom around the Silver Price Rapist would react if the roles of Elia and Lyanna were swapped. Lyanna his wife, mother of two of his children left abandoned if favor of this delicate beauty from Dorne. Left alone with his insane father while he ran away to be with Elia. Same exact story, just the roles are exchanged?

I’m going to be honest it’s not something I’ve really thought about so I welcome other opinions as my opinion isn’t really concrete on the subject.

However, considering how people treat Elia and Lyanna already I sincerely doubt the narrative would change too much. Elia would likely be vilified more than she already is for existing in the story and making Rhaegar look bad.

She would be treated as the Dornish stereotype of the “evil seductive temptress” who manipulated the poor innocent prince into straying from his perfect true love. There would be zero romanticization of the relationship.

Lyanna already is rightfully acknowledged to be a victim by most of the fandom and I think that would continue if the roles were reversed to a higher degree which I wouldn’t have a problem with because it would be 100% justified.

Racists like to rage that apparently people only like Elia because she’s “POC” or can be projected on as to “victimize” which is the most vile racist rhetoric I have ever heard. If Elia was treated as white by the narrative (which she’s not) but let’s say she was. She would still have fans and be treated exactly the same way because she was still horribly wronged by Rhaegar and Aerys. I think it speaks to the racism and misogyny of Rhaegar stans that they think people can only enjoy a character because she’s brown. I also think it speaks to their misogyny that they think the abuses Elia experienced by Rhaegar and Aerys would somehow cease to exist or matter to people if she was white. Them touting this argument time and time again does make me question if they would discard and hate Lyanna Stark just as much as they hate Elia if the roles were reversed because if Rhaegar doesn’t find her worthy than they definitely won’t.

Besides the argument referenced above I do think all the issues the fandom has with Elia and the way they foam at the mouth with rage at any positive love being directed at her would disappear. They would see the awfulness of the situation and actually have empathy towards Lyanna and the abuse she went through at the hands of Rhaegar and Aerys. Her willfulness would be praised because she had Aegon VI potentially spirited away against all odds. The northern rage at her brutal demise would be praised and not vilified as something to get over. I could go on.

Lately fans who agree with respecting and loving Elia are treated as “Martell cultists” by funny enough the loudest side of the fandom who’s entire existence revolves around self inserting into a 14 year old girl so they can imagine themselves with Rhaegar. They vehemently like to claim they “actually like Elia” and the problem is just her fans lmaooo but they will gladly label her and speak about her in just about the most disgusting ways possible referencing how utterly useless and irrelevant and worthless she is to them over and over again and how she can’t hold a candle to Lyanna Stark. They use the most Clearly vile misogynistic talking points and parrot them as truths because they’re incapable of critically analyzing the text for what it is and not putting two women against each other for the sake of a man.

They truly only care about Rhaegar. How attractive he is to them. How much he desired a particular child. How his dick is going to save the world. How he was an innocent victim. Etc.

Meanwhile ignoring the fact that both the girl and woman brutally lost their lives because of him. Their mentality is 14 year old middle schooler. Recently a mutual of mine got an ask pitting Lyanna and Elia again each other because the anon was apparently furious Elia fans like to call her the People’s Princess. It’s plain as day misogyny directed predominantly at Elia but also Lyanna. They really only care about Rhaegar and it’s pathetic. So while I think the general fandom would extend a lot more love and care than has ever been given to Elia if the roles were reversed I do still think for the Rhaegar stans the only one who matters is Rhaegar. The woman only exist to be tropes for them to either vilify or self insert into.