#octavian is A complex character

[plushieslayer]

some HOO/PJO/TOA fans :

“we need more complex characters”

MY BROTHER IN CHRIST,YOU COULDN’T EVEN HANDLE HIM

[a-sparrows-melody]

Things I Would Change About PJO

(I might write a fanfic based on these points):

The whole Hunters-Of-Artemis thing. Like what do you mean Artemis hates all men. What about Orion and all the rest. What do you mean she hates Apollo. She loves him so much. Stop already. That whole thing was just erroneous interpretation of Greek Mythology and it felt really weird and toxic.

Annabeth and Percy's trauma bond. Annabeth is pretty toxic in a relationship, especially in the HoO books when she and Percy get together. Love their relationship as a concept but the way Rick writes it is just... not it. To show Annabeth as a "strong woman" he continuously makes her put Percy down - and not only in COTG and WOTTG. She literally judo-flips him when they met after that long traumatic period where Percy was suffering from amnesia and being killed so many times. I would love to see more of their dynamic as friends and make it a longer, healthier, equal-footed relationship.

Thalia Grace joining the Hunters and never leaving. What the hell. She only joined to escape the Great Prophecy 1. She can leave right after the Battle of Manhattan and take Percy's place in Great Prophecy 2.

Bianca being alive, only "lost" (never specified dead!). It's a pretty big plot-point for Nico and I think it would probably have a bigger impact on him to lose his only care-giver and watch her come back into his life after he's grieving greatly and he's in the process of learning how to live life without her. It would truly change up their entire systems and I would love to see Nico and Bianca coming to a point where they realize it's time to live their own lives. ALSO STOP TREATING BIANCA LIKE A PLOT-DEVICE FOR NICO. COME ON. DO BETTER.

Make Nico better. In general. The character has so much potential but is just reduced to "sunshine character's grumpy emo goth boyfriend" or "kid whose type is NOT PERCY HAHAHAHA SO FUNNY". Give him some more development.

LUKE WAS A GROOMER AND ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN HUMAN TRAFFICKING. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU JUST FORGIVE HIM AND NOT OCTAVIAN, WHO WAS LITERALLY BULLIED AND MANIPULATED INTO DOING THE SHIT HE DID. If you want to hate Luke, hate Octavian too. If you want to forgive him, forgive Octavian too. Stop hating complex characters.

CALEO. OH MY GOD CALEO. LIKE ACTUALLY DIE. THAT IS SO HORRIBLE.

Piper does not need to be gay.

Jason does not need to die.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN GROVER DID NOT USE HIS EMPATHY LINK TO SEARCH FOR PERCY IN TARTARUS. SMH.

Percy should NOT have become Praetor.

Reyna should not be aro/ace or she's just horrible representation of both those things. STOP PUTTING EVERY ARO/ACE CHARACTER IN THE HUNTERS OF ARTEMIS.

Why would Nico search for Bianca and bring Hazel back? That thing makes no sense. His whole arc in TLO was to accept the loss of his sister. Instead, bring out Ethan Nakamura who is still angry and jealous and wants to bring balance to the world. He comes out on his own, BTW.

The whole "Wilderness school" plotline thing. OF COURSE monsters would come for Pipes and Leo. They're really damn powerful and really damn young. What the hell do you mean by they never knew anything till Jason? smh.

SOLANGELO. CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SAYING THIS BUT IT'S OUT THERE. Will is just a blank character to show that Nico's gay and prove he's over Percy (STOP WITH THE "NOT MY TYPE" JOKES OH MY GOD GET OVER IT ALREADY WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU). If you're doing this, at least give me a good, long slow-burn. Or don't show it at all. Nico decides to live in normal life after being shunned and confused all his life in the magical world. Now he finds a mortal boyfriend and is actually thriving. His character is so beautiful like stop ruining him and using him as a goddamn plot-device all the time. Ugh.

CHANGE NICO'S COMING OUT SCENE! LITERALLY WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT.

Jason and Piper breaking up was such a good plot point because not everyone falls in love but you need to make it heart-wrenching. Jason doesn't know what's going on. He's just dating Piper because that's what he's being told, that's what he did his whole life. MAKE IT HAPPEN IN HOO.

NO FRAZEL AND LEO LOVE TRIANGLE. ALSO JUST NO FRAZEL IN GENERAL. STOP WITH THE FRAZEL. THAT'S SO UNHEALTHY.

MAKE LEO ARO/ACE GODDAMN. He has so much potential. Like he always feels loveless? Like a failure? Feels a need to have a partner to prove his worth? DIE. MAKE HIM ARO/ACE. MAKE HIM DEAL WITH ALL THAT.

Actually valgrace is a pretty good plot point as well. valdangelo as well.

WHY AREN'T THERE ANY POLY SHIPS IN PJO? SMH. SERIOUSLY. SO MUCH POTENTIAL.

Don't kill me but... perachel is pretty good. I've written a small post about it here.

Welp this is officially too long. Anyway. I wanted to add more but this has been sitting in my drafts and collecting dust a long time so here you go.

[humblefryingpan]

Rick Riordan always villainises the most random characters ever and it's so stupid to me

Why would Hera, queen of the gods, protector of women, send a cow to shit on a teenage girl? What would she gain from that?

Why would Dionysus, the god of festivity, madness, ecstasy and theatre be an angry alcoholic? Why would he bully kids?? Rick was probably trying to make a point about how bad alcoholism is but he rlly didn't show that

Why would Hebe, goddess of youth and old age, curse people into turning into children? Why would you not at least google what she's the god of before putting her in the book??

All the gods are such complex characters but he just picks a few and decides to use one of their traits to form a whole new personality.

And then he'll glorify other equally random gods. Poseidon? He made him dear old dad, a harmless fisherman that wants to see his kid but is sadly not allowed to.

Poseidon in actual mythology has assaulted just as many people as Zeus, and he was one of the most feared gods because of his tendency to randomly hurt mortals and destroy entire cities

And then there are gods that should've been plot relevant but weren't. Because they weren't connected to his favorite characters

It's not just the gods though. It's easier for me to notice with them because they have existing characterisation outside of pjo but there is obvious bias towards other mortal characters.

The treatment of Luke vs Octavian specifically. Luke was a 26 year old man that was literally trying to destroy all of humanity. He literally enjoys hurting 13 year old Percy. And Octavian? He was a bit annoying? He cut up a teddy bear? And he's villainised so much for that. While Luke was able to go to elysium and never be hated by the main characters, Octavian was fired out of a canon and insulted constantly.

And remember Octavian always thought he was doing the right thing. He thought Apollo was supporting him, he thought the Greeks had already started a war (we know Leo was controlled, he never did). He thought his camp was under attack and took charge when their leader refused to (never giving him a real reason other than 'no that's bad')

I have many other thoughts but I cba to type more rn. Feel free to ask about other characters you think Rick did dirty. I'll probably agree and I'll yap about them too

[carmilllaofstyria]

Percy : making Annabeth laugh in Tartarus

Annabeth : literally needing to suppress a smile at his discomfort

No, just no.

This is canon. I'm not saying Percy's perfect. He's not. In fact I'm an avid supporter of flawed characters. As long as we and anyone with common sense in the story admit that they're flawed.

I'm one of the people who got goosebumps when Inej said "I like it when men beg, but this isn't the time for it." in SOC and arguably even for the wrong reasons. I admit it. So you know I mean it when even I think the whole Annabeth girlbossification is mortifying at best and wrong at worst.

I wouldn't even be against Annabeth getting progressively worse in the series. No one except Luke, Octavian and Bryce (not including gods and monsters) was shown as actually bad in the stories (I have opinions on that ) . I don't believe every single character has to get character growth or even a dramatic end. There's so much that could have been done with Annabeth. I've read some fics which portrayed Annabeth so well, it's clear she had potential.

But the relationship is just unforgivable. If at least someone around them actually reacted normally,

For example :

Annabeth: I only attack my boyfriend like that.

Reyna, abuse survivor :

Jason :

Piper, daughter of Aphrodite and hater of girls with a superiority complex (hypocritical but I'll allow it) :

Leo Valdez, abuse survivor:

Hazel 'don't touch Percy,Frank and Nico if you want to live' Levesque :

Frank Zhang, heart of gold and soft boi :

The entirety of New Rome :

Octavian, certified asshole and hater of Greeks :

YIKES!

You're saying not even Hazel and Frank who have never seen Annabeth interact and haven't gotten used to her behaviour wouldn't talk to Percy ( the same Percy who was nothing but kind to them and just came back after a life threatening quest with them) about his abusive girlfriend?

You're saying Reyna whose father whom she loved but abused her and her sister and gave her the trauma of a lifetime who's a no nonsense leader and Percy's co-preator didn't tell him he deserves better than that and not only that, but go in the entire opposite direction and admire her?

Just please, don't do this to him. Or the other characters. They deserve to have common sense.

I will also add that TLH had no business being as bad as it was. Because I wanted to.

[t470n]

I feel like Bryce Lawrence in effect encapsulates what I think is wrong with how the villains in HOO are written because he's so unimaginable flat and cartoonishly evil. And it's not like there isn't anything interesting to work with. Rick accidentally gave him the potential to be pretty fascinating actually! He killed his own centurion and was exiled from the legion but came back as soon as he heard there were pardons being offered. That could be really rich characterisation but Rick does nothing with it. Bryce is designed to be as antagonistic and unlikable as physically possible so everything about him is purely just a reason to dislike him.

What's his deal? he works for Octavian, he's a bad guy! Okay but there are non-bad guys working for Octavian so why is this one really bad? he was exiled from the legion! From the legion the heroes are fighting against? Yeah, but he was exiled because he murdered his centurion! oh wow that sounds important and dramatic and character-defining, care to say a little more? . . . he murdered his centurion! is that all? . . . And he hurts animals! wow, were the animals puppies and was his method of attack kicking them?

Bryce could have actually been a really interesting character because there are so many questions about him that just never get answered. Why did he kill his centurion? When? Was it during the Titan war? How does his family feel about all this considering they got his sentence reduced from execution to exile? How does he feel about his family stepping in like that? What about his and Orcus' feelings towards each other considering that Bryce probably broke an oath with all his antics? What was Bryce doing all that time in exile? How does he feel about being asked to rejoin the legion? Does he hate them and is only joining for survival/protection/to regain his status? Or does he still have some sense of Roman duty and loyalty?

All these questions, and more! are very interesting, but unfortunately rick was only interested in making the single most cartoonishly evil villain so no one feels bad when Nico wipes him from existence. Because characters are allowed to do morally questionable things as long as they're only morally questionable in theory, and in actuality are totally fine because the people these acts are being done to aren't people. If Bryce had layers and complexity, that would make Nico infinitely more complex and morally grey for his decision to kill him (same with letting Octavian die). Nico's grey morality is an optics thing. It's not allowed to be meaningful or have consequences. Characters like Bryce and Octavian (and several other HOO antagonists) need to be as bland and cartoonishly evil as possible so no one needs to feel bad or have any complex emotions about getting rid of these antagonists. They're not characters, they're obstacles for the heroes to overcome, which is such a downgrade from the antagonists of the first series. You feel something with the 'bad guys' there, from the minor antagonists like Clarisse and Claypso (even Quintus/Daedalus to an extent) to the actively villainous antagonists like Luke and Ethan (even Nico for a little bit during TTC). They have layers and character and motives and personality that makes you connect with them and root for them a little bit. This is completely absent with the antagonists in HOO which is why they don't work.

[wanderingmind867]

Luke Castellan and the Titan Army were like the bolsheviks and the jacobins. A bunch of angry people who had violence on the brain. They were clouded by rage, and so they became violent killers with god complexes and massive prejudices. They wanted to kill the gods and probably betray the titans and leave themselves as absolute rulers of all they surveyed. Sociopathic monsters. Luke wanted to be king, and he wanted Annabeth and Thalia to rule beside him. He wanted to watch everyone but his friends struggle it out in the gutter. Survival of the fittest style. He was a sick bastard of a kid. And his whole army of demigods reflect his horrible, horrible views.

Meanwhile, Octavian and his legions represented a return to the glory of the roman empire. Octavian wasn't a man who wanted to kill the gods and destroy the old order. Instead, he was a misguided soul who merely wanted to keep the old ways alive (and turned to some pretty dark means to do that). Octavian never wanted things to escalate the way they did, I really don't think. If not for Gaea taking a hand in the game, Octavian might have been persuaded to form a truce with the greeks. He wasn't that bloodthirsty. No, he just became blinded by paranoia and fear. And I can understand that more than I can understand Luke and his disgusting god complex and survival of the fittest mentality.

Octavian represents the opposite of Luke. Octavian is tradition and respect for the old ways. Luke is revolution and an overthrowal of the old ways. Neither one is fully right, but Luke sunk to much deeper depths of depravity before Octavian did. Because Luke was living on pure spite. He was willing to compromise on everything, so long as he retained his power and got to kill the gods. Octavian at least had a set moral compass, a desire to bring new rome valour. He always did what he thought was best for new rome, even when it led him to paranoia and violence.

Opinions are always subjective and divisive regarding these characters, but Octavian is the one I like better. Mainly because I hate revolutions. I like the idea of getting rid of money and capitalism and all the unfair systems in this world, but I wouldn't ever want to do it by murder. Kidnapping? Maybe. But not murder. If you're already prepared for murder when you start out, then you already have instability in your system. And that's a really bad sign. Violence should always be the last resort. But for people like Luke, it never is.

[iwannascreameurekaa]

I can never decide if I hate or love Octavian like on one hand he's a complex character that I could 100% write angst on but also he committed murder, killing an innocent girl who was most likely someone he knew for years so

[somewhereincairparavel]

ahhh congrats on 500

🍭

riordanverse, jercy

thank you anon!

jason and percy's relationship is so complex and, at times, messy just like any rival teenagers's relationship would be tbh. But if I'm being completely honest w you, they were only annoyed by eachother during the beginning of MOA, and I feel like the tension dissipated pretty quickly. A part of me feels like they BOTH idolized eachother secretly behind all that "jealousy" towards e/o, and I'm saying this because in the beginning of MOA, we saw them quickly come to eachother's defence in front of octavian, and percy even felt guilty to be taking jason's room (and by that point percy knew that jason was a very qualified and respected person in CJ) so I always felt like there was admiration on both ends mixed with envy aswell.

We saw how freely they could talk about their struggles to eachother underwater when jason saved percy. jason even kept his word that he wouldn't tell anyone that he saved percy's life in order to not shatter his ego when he could've used that opportunity to embarrass him in front of everyone to make himself appear superior, but he knew that percy would also never do something like that to him either, and he also understood percy's insecurity and wanting to keep his reputation intact since he still thought very low of himself. Overall jason and percy are such decent and humble people, that no matter how hard they try to be competitive, they simply understand each other so well.

We know that during one of the magnus chase books (the ship of the dead i think), which took place a short period after hoo ended, percy told magnus that jason once saved him underwater, causing annabeth to tease him about it. But it makes me think that jason and percy got to a point in their friendship where they completely let go of their egos, I mean, percy basically admitted that jason saved his butt in front of his girlfriend, when we know that the whole reason he even told jason not to tell anyone about it was bc he said annabeth would never let him live that down. so him freely admitting that is a huge indicator of how developed their friendship after hoo might have been.

We also know that, after jasons death, percy could never even mention his name without breaking into agressive tears. And unfortunately, apart from piper/nico, that was the only solid "crying my heart out" reaction we even got from the characters a long time after jason died.

[musicofthenightphantomoftheopera]

So I'm back on my percy Jackson bs again and I saw this one post on Tiktok claiming that Solangelo is "Klance Coded" and I simply had to laugh because that couldn't be any further from the truth...

Klance is Red and Blue, Fire and Water type polar opposites in both personality and aesthetics

However, not every polar opposite style ship is "Red and Blue Coded" there's also Sun and Moon, ( Or in Solangelo's case, Sun and Star) Light and Darkness.

so basically, and this might be controversial, but I know those who will get it will get it, what I'm trying to say is.....

Solangelo is NOT Klance Coded.

Solangelo is SORIKU Coded

I can go into heavy detail, and I will!

Will is definitely a lot like Sora in that even when surrounded by so much bad happening or even when he's going through his own stuff, he still puts on a smile and pretends nothing is wrong. of course to his own detriment and also has self sacrificing tendancies. Overworking himself to heal others to the point of exhaustion and even down to the self esteem issues. Sora sees himself alone as worthless without his friends ("My Friends Are My Power") and Will feeling like Healing is the only thing he's good for since he didn't inherit any of the other natural talents most of his other siblings have as demigod children of Apollo. And the incident with Octavian probably didn't help either. They also have somewhat of a hero complex and struggle with dealing with the fact that they can't save everyone. Sora broke a major taboo in order to bring kairi back in kh3 because he didn't want her to die, and Will being a medic that had been through not 1 but 2 LITERAL WARS, one in which he lost several of his siblings and of course being a medic in general, no matter how hard you try or how good at your job, it's just a fact that you cannot save everyone that's put in your care. Also, Both Sora and Will are heavily associated with Light both literally and figuratively

And then we got Nico, who just like Riku was lost for so long in lieral and metaphorical darkness, both trapped in metaphorical labyrinths of their inner turmoil of thier feelings, their pasts, their trauma (wether it be losing someone they care about, or being abused and manipulated at the hands of a shifty adult figure for their own gain) , and feeling that they have no place of belonging. only to be brought back by the people that care about them the most and through their own self determination and strength. And also both characters associated with darkness literally and as a concept.

Riku and Nico also have a teensy bit of Angel character symbolism with Nico's last name being Angel in italian and Riku's original keyblade Way To Dawn having both a monster/demon wing and Angel wing at the hand guard and for the "teeth" of the keyblade

you could also argue Riku could technically be seen as a "Fallen Angel" type character since he was originally chosen to be a keyblade wielder by Terra but lost that right when he fell to darkness hence why the keyblade went to Sora instead, then Riku spent the next several games on a very angsty redemption arc.

And of course, Nico and Riku aren't strictly associated with darkness. Nico is a son of hades, a prince of the underworld, The Ghost King. However, he isn't all doom and gloom. He's still just a teenage boy that's secretly a giant nerd and is actually a a good kid.

Riku as well, has the power to wield both the powers of light and darkness and it was Riku's light inside his heart that sora reached out to that dark and stormy night on the beaches of destiny island that let him wield the keyblade in the first place

And don't even get me started on how Riku is 100% gay coded (don't beleive me? look up the "Riku Is Gay" video on youtube, grab a snack and enjoy. you're gonna be there a hot minute)

Both characters in both medias are opposites to each other but both also compliment and balance each other out. But not like Fire and Water. Like Light and Darkness. Not only hat, but the dynamic between Sora and Riku and between Nico and Will are kinda similar. not identical by any means, but enough to where I definitely noticed it.

If anyone else has anything to add to this, let me know! I had this lightbulb a few nights ago and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it since!

[sforzesco]

Very strange and random question, but would you mind directing me to your character design of Hermes? I'd also love to know if you have any tips on creating good character designs. If not, no worries!

Thank you for sharing your amazing art! The style is so good, and I always enjoy reading your comic strips. ❤️

I’ve drawn Hermes properly like, once before I think? in this comic! there’s another illustration of the same kind of scene with him, but I’m not a big fan of it and I’m thinking of redoing it sometime this year

ANYWAY character design advice! the Team Fortress 2 school of design will never steer you wrong (recognizable silhouettes), and one teacher I had personally liked the ‘opposites’ rule of character design, where you want some kind of noticeable ‘opposite’ of a character if you’re mostly doing pairs in a scene (so tall > short, that kind of thing). I personally adhere to whatever I think suits the narrative best/in a fun way. like, Crassus and Pompey are set up specifically for the story I have in mind

Pomepy is supposed to (eventually, it takes him a minute) be bulky enough that he could fold Crassus in half like laundry if he felt like it, and Crassus is supposed to look tall and thin, but he’s more lean muscle and could probably break your jaw if he hit you, and the subtextual narrative is about exploring all the ways they DON’T touch each other in the acts of violence that their bodies would be suited for, which is in total defiance of what comes before them, and also after (Antony and Octavian have a similar visual pairing, and it’s all physical violence there, baby)

in other news, I have a hard time figuring out a consistent character design until I figure out the story I want to tell lmao

there’s more about figuring out repeat draw ability vs complexity, balancing out overall design shape with accessories, clothes conveying personality and intent (character design work is a whole specialty tbh), but I tend to be a little more laid back about it because I’m more interested in prying open the story and then designing characters as the story comes together. like, sometimes I’ll shove a century of art history discourse into something, other times it’s Actor Hot, Show Rearranged The Circuits In My Brain, etc. but at the end of the day, I want it to work with the story, so I do these things side by side.

if you want more solid advice than this nebulous mess of thoughts, interviews with costume designers for movies or shows you enjoy is always always always a fantastic place to go to if you really want to understand how clothing and form convey intent and narrative to an audience: I keep a lot of that kind of theory in the back of my mind when I start seriously figuring out what I want a character to do, and by extension, how to look. interviews with animators and comic artists are good places to learn abt character design too!

[onemeh]

who’s your favorite (or favorites) in pjo?

I think in canon I like Will Solace best, idek why :D Something about him just ✨️ Although that will probably change over time, I can never stick with one character, they're all so amazing-

BUT if we're talking about the more complex version of a character I made up myself in my head- probaby Mr. D or Jason.

Mr. D is a jerk, sure, but being put in charge of children made me relate to him so hard, ngl-

And Jason could be such an intersting character if his backstory was explored more! We know almost nothing about him. Kinda sad.

Also, I cannot understand all the hate Octavian gets. Were his actions fucked up? Was he going insane? Yes. Was he also mislead and in desperate need of some therapy like everyone else? YES!! Oh, I could go on and on about Octavian-

[sanityshorror]

We know about Killian, Cian and Julius, but which other Hellcrew characters canonly have kids? Even if they were present in their life?🤔

The majority of Hellcrew have participated in creating a child, the majority of them have made more than one 😭

Has children & knows:

Julius

Killian

Kelly

Cian

Duvessa

Devlin

Canonically confirmed by the creator as childless:

Lucien

If you know the character, you know why 💀

Has children; unknown by character:

Seraphina

Unknown by the creator & character:

Octavian

more likely than not especially due to his profession, but he's utterly unaware if he does or doesn't, and doesn't want to know

Sullivan

more unlikely, but they're also utterly unaware if they do or don't, and don't wish to know

Seamus

It's an extremely complex situation regarding the number of children:

Julius

Elaboration on Julius:

In present day will only acknowledge the 2 youngest out of 5 total he created as his children. Will not acknowledge his actual eldest actually exists and is debatable if even can be considered beyond biological; has in functional practice and mutually, fully become brothers with Octavian (now Julius' older brother) and Devlin (now Julius' twin brother) - the three will only acknowledge each other as brothers and refuse to acknowledge otherwise even if directly confronted.

Due to yet another very unfortunate situation, there is a possibility (more unlikely than likely) Julius could have one or two more children, but like the first, can only be considered in the technical biological DNA manner. If he does or does not and will not ever be known, it remains fully up to the reader's individual interpretation.

Lucien, Devlin © @scarfaxia

Seraphina © @gracilissart

All other characters mentioned © @sanityshorror

[navree]

Thoughts on HBO's Rome? Would love to hear you scream about it.

I've actually talked about it a bit here, but long story short is that I'm not a fan. There's some stuff I really like, I think James Purefoy as Antony was an inspired choice and he remains my favorite portrayal of him, and they seem to have done their research on how the world worked at the time, so I won't knock on people who like it. But I don't.

I'm not a super massive historical purist, one of my favorite shows is The Tudors and that took a lot of liberties with the history, but other than a few exceptions, such as the shit they did with Thomas Boleyn, they never really created a version of someone that felt antithetical to who that person likely was historically. My previous answer talked a bit about how they leaned into tropes with these people, particularly with Octavian and Cleopatra, and how they're not tropes I particularly care for (in general I'm forever craving something about Octavian that actually seems to line up with what we know about the dude and his various complexities, closest I've seen is maybe Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series but even that has some major flaws for me), but I've got a bit of a bone to pick about Atia.

For one, if she's basically going to be Fulvia (and I don't care what the show said, they absolutely didn't take shit from historical Atia, it was all Fulvia), why can't she just be Fulvia? Fulvia had a really interesting life, and her relationship to Antony through their marriage was really interesting, and I think Polly Walker could have played her exceptionally well. I would have liked to see things like her in Rome while Antony is basically an enemy of the state, and her role in the Perusine War and how that all went about.

For two, do people not realize the fucking goldmine they're sitting on when it comes to Atia and her relationship with her children? Atia appears to have been pretty close to her daughter, given that Octavia spent a lot of time traveling around with her mother, and Octavia's marital prospects were also really firmly tied to her family's political power from the getgo. Her first husband was pretty anti-Caesarian, how did Atia feel that her daughter was technically siding against her own uncle through marriage? How did that impact their relationship, or the relationship Atia had with her grandchildren. They're also the only women in their family, you could do so much with that and how misogynistic Roman society was.

And then, on the other hand, you have her relationship with Octavian, which is fascinating. Atia seems to have vacillated, historically, between incredibly distant and almost smothering when it came to her son; she sent him away to live with his grandmother rather than raise him with her new husband the way she did with Octavia, which was not the norm, but she was also so overprotective of his health that she and Caesar were the ones discussing whether Octavian was well enough to travel around with him, and she really wanted him to reject Caesar's will so that his safety wouldn't be jeopardized. And how did Atia feel about what her son was doing? That her son, her baby boy, was in essence rejecting his family to subsume himself to Caesar's and, against her wishes, is going around being his heir and getting involved in politics during such a tumultuous time? How did Octavian's adulthood, and the turmoil of it, play with his clearly complicated relationship with his mother? And Atia died in 43 BC. She died about a year after Caesar, and that's such rich ground for Octavian as a character in historical fiction. His father died when he was four, he latched onto Caesar who ended up murdered a year ago, and now his mom is dead too. You can even create good drama out of the fact that it's shortly after this that he starts working with Antony and Lepidus to eventually create the Second Triumvirate, that being a pretty firm orphan, suffering another loss during such a stressful time, kinda made him say "fuck it" and add to his aggression (this is the same year he's making fucking kill lists of people, come on). Atia and Octavian's relationship is so interesting, writing wise, the fact that nobody's jumped on it and all we got from HBO was "sociopathic kid hates his slut mom" doesn't do much for me.

Also, said it a million times and shall be saying it again, pairing Agrippa with Octavia (or really any other woman from Octavian's family) is a giant fucking cop-out. The man was heart and soul for Octavian, if you want to have Agrippa torn between his duty to Octavian as a subordinate and strong feelings of love that he can't really act on, his best friend since childhood is right there. These two were insane for each other, quit trying to het-ify it and just make them gay.

[doevademe]

Besides Nico Di Angelo and Percy Jackson, do you have any other favorite characters? In general how would you rank the characters from favorite to least(Luke can be added to that too. I personally think he was a really good antagonist)

I feel like this is a difficult question because, aside from Nico being number 1 with Percy close behind, ranking is a bit complicated, especially with so many characters. In general, I'd say my favorites aside from them are Jason, Hazel, and Hades (Wow, characters closely associated with Nico, who'd have guessed...), and my favorites to write about are Jason, Annabeth, and, surprisingly enough, Octavian.

As for Luke, I think he's a good character, with great motivations, complex morality and fascinating relationships... I just don't like him that much. There's no one reason for it, I just don't find the type of character he is very appealing. It has nothing to do with how he's written and all to do with the tropes and archetypes he embodies. It's just personal preference.

[ojamajoprincess]

my mother is listening to the pjohoo series and now she is on son of neptune.

and I’m over here excited for Octavian to show up. And I had the realization of Canon Octavian didn’t really have lots of depth. I don’t remember a whole lot about him— if there’s much to remember in the first place— but I do remember Headcanon Octavian.

AKA my own personal version of him from 2013-2015, a standoffish, rude gay trans dude with albinism and an accompanying sight impairment, an inferiority complex 5000 miles long, recovering from an eating disorder, and estranged from his family, but in a relatively new, ridiculously lovey-dovey, stupidly touchy-feely relationship with Leo Valdez, who also is my own personal version and not actually Canon Leo.

I freaking Love HC! Octavian, but, like, dude, that’s your own effing character by this point. eat your heart out, damn.

[f0xgl0v3]

The Camp Jupiter thing.

That is a vague title, but ‘The various reasons that we have gotten fundamental rules about the ascendancy in Camp Jupiter due to the list of characters we were given’ this post has turned into ‘Various reasons I’m sad about canon Camp Jupiter’

I will note I just go off on like 50 tangents through this post, bear with me. And I forget what I was talking about halfway through. But hey! Long post :D also I’m reading through this and note I am not serious about this, I am cannonically a silly Kerropi and Choco cat hugging on the internet that talks about how much I like Rome and this fictional franchise- please don’t take anything I say too seriously, I can’t put up good arguments without actually trying to format my points in a argumentative essay format. This is just me typing words and thinking it’s good enough.

This takes into account that I have not read ToA yet because for some reason the hidden oracle falls under the same problem that I had with reading TLT or tTC; which is very slow first chapters that are hard to get through :[ So nothing other than what I know about ToA Camp Jupiter stuff (which is dubious) won’t be talked about; sadly including characters that are fully introduced in ToA and their issues, though I’ll probably mention them or something.

Okay, these are claims, but I’ve now decided to dedicate my bus ride to this issue that I’ve realized (that probably is well known and whatever) while those are a couple things,

First and the most well-known Camp Jupiter thing is lack of characterization, or at least consistent characterization (the first cohort),

Aside from our POVs I feel that (and I think most of what I’ve seen from the community) the characters don’t have much of any Characterization, and not in a like ‘these characters don’t have complex narratives and that means they suck >:[‘ but in the fact that they don’t have.. much of anything? Comparing them to Camp Half-Blood seems the best, some of the side characters we see there like Clarisse La Rue, Charles Beckendorf, Silena Beauregard, and Thalia Grace, and more I can’t think about right now all have noticeable to somewhat noticeable arcs, and clear characterization and more than just 2D personalities. (I don’t focus on Camp Half-Blood nearly enough to give rundowns of them and I don’t have room, but note that every single CHB character mentioned has at least 1 B plot and is important to the narrative)

Now, let’s look at Camp Jupiter characters were given (that don’t end up POVs because they obviously have to be given complex personalities.. to which degree it is effective and how they chose to use those personalities is probably a different post) but we have characters that get Characterization like,

Octavian; A character set up to be some form of threat, even though repeatedly we are shown that, despite what traits were told he has, are shown a different character. Who then in the next books is played for laughs because the community didn’t like him enough and is eventually killed off without a solid reason to be killed off. He is set up to be a threat and told to be a threat, but showed to be incompetent and played for comedic value to varying sucess (don’t set up a character as a villain that is said to be hard to deal with if you then turn around and have him beat in the first 5 pages and then continue to beat him again and again without any strain from your Protags)

Michael; We know nothing about him, we are told that he is ripped and that he is meant to be Octavian’s closed ally and confidant (that is slightly exaggerated but he is meant to be close to Octavian) then we see him remorselessly wave and say goodbye as Octavian is murdered and simply walk away (Also and exaggeration, but like- he’s not doing himself any favors)

Dakota; he’s not really given a personality that is distinct, and is played for an addiction joke before being killed off (I have no idea if he is given any character in ToA, but like..)

Bryce Lawerence; given the stereotypical traits for a psychopath, given 2 minutes of screen time to be un-menacing and then to have a horrific death.

I chose some of the worse options (also options of characters I hold dear to my heart and like talking about) but there are probably a plethora of other characters that can also be used as examples. The point is, comparing them to other secondary characters that are presented in the books. They are used situationally, for laughs, to fill in a menacing problem blank or be killed off, and for one of them (*cough, cough* OCTAVIAN *cough, cough*) they fit all of the boxes I have listed. Which sucks because it generally means that when thinking about Camp Jupiter characters, there is digging and a whole lot of interpreting you have to do to squeeze character and possible traits out of them. I’ve been ranting a lot and it’s hard to get what I’m trying to say typed, but I hope when I say ‘most characters were given are nothing burgers’ people understand what I’m trying to convey; that compared to other characters in the same universe that are written by the same author; Camp Jupiters characters are given so much less amazing characterization!

Also I don’t quite know where to put this; but the books treat Camp Jupiter with this mob mentality, but not in a like actual way; but in a ‘I think of them as just a hive mind instead of people with distinct personalities’ where again, in Camp Half-Blood they all have these somewhat distinct personalities and would react differently to situations, where Camp Jupiter, one of the Praetors would say something and then we wouldn’t care because there would be no mixed reaction. There is no CJ equivelant to the Apollo and Ares cabin having a tiff over a chariot, literally it’s just ‘we agree that the 5th sucks haha’. I consider this for one key reason; we aren’t introduced to enough characters in Camp Jupiter who have distinct personalities nor are we introduced to a big variety of characters! And most of the times we get a variety of characters is in probatio’s journal, an extra short story book that people who aren’t interested in Camp Jupiter. THAT I AGAIN MENTION NAMED A DAUGHTER OF JANUS JANICE!!! it’s not a big deal, it’s fine; but it bothers ME. It shouldn’t, it’s fun, it’s a short story but still.

Okay, okay. Second reason is the Centurion/position of power issue. NOT including Probatio’s journal (which I decided not to read before this) almost every single character in Camp Jupiter we are introduced to is or ascends to a position of power. We don’t get a ‘hi I’m Jerry and I’m just a legionnaire trying to work through’ even characters that don’t need to be in other positions of power like my example, Larry.

Larry is mentioned in the Senate scene of SoN, opposing Frank rising to Centurion-hood. Great, he can be one of the 10 elected senators we are told about and then we never have to talk about him again.

But, they had to make him the Centurion of the 2nd cohort. Okay, great, that’s fine- he just was cool enough to be elected as a senator.

But that’s not just it. Every single character that was mentioned there (not including Cato’s ghost which is wild but extremely funny in my opinion- no I will not be elaborating on why it is funny to me) was a centurion or in a position of power. Every named character was a Centurion, Praetor, or someone who ended up being a Centurion or Praetor (I don’t remember if we’re told names of Veterans, other senators, or if there is a character that was just mentioned without a secondary rank).

But, that itself is like, all fine and dandy. If this and the scene right before it didn’t throw around a bunch of rules during it. Which- with the combination of lack of named characters that were purely elected Senators, we ended up with mishaps like thinking the rule for Centurion’s that they had to serve 5 years in camp before being able to.. like be a centurion (if there is confirmation that the rule applies to Centurions somewhere else in the book please tell me) but no, the quote is just in relation to being a Senator. (I just realized but it doesn’t help that Dakota; our in the book closest source of info for Centurions also happens to be a Senator)

But Okay, so that- and then there is the obvious assumption that Centurions just also go and serve in the senate. Though- I don’t believe that is explicitly mentioned in the books- so not confirmed..? My memory is dubious though so this is a little more flimsy- BUT THE POINT-

The point is, that without any labeling or clear-cut rules that are told to us, it’s harder to know. In combination with the rules we were told being muddled up between the two roles, and it’s not helping when all the characters there mentioned in the senate end up being Centurions- it’s a mess.

I at this point, I have lost the whole point I was trying to talk about. But yeah. Camp Jupiter has a lot of problems, and suffers so much (in my opinion) from the lack of utilization. It makes me sad and upset, and now I have to go re-read Camp Jupiter’s parts in SoN to confirm… a lot of things that were wrong. And think a lot harder on things.

But yes. Camp Jupiter makes me so happy and then realizing Camp Jupiter isn’t written the best makes me very sad/upset/angry but yeah. Lets give Camp Jupiter better characterization and actual characters- yeah :D

I say this a lot in recent posts, but I am a little tired compared to when I wrote most of this and I feel like that’s obvious, but Camp Jupiter map is about.. 75-80% ish done. The first draft at least will be done by at the least, this weekend. I’ll probably either finish a Dionysus/Bacchus kids post I was working on, or start on that Michael Varus post, talk more about Larry because he’s so infrequent but is so silly. OR just talk more over Octavian or Bryce Lawerence because those two are genuinely some of my favorite characters and one (Bryce Lawerence) clearly has much less reason and content for me to like about him.

ALSO possibly Outsiders (the book by S.E Hinton) content coming up? I don’t know how much people like the Outsiders, but I like it. And if anyone wants to know; I’d probably be posting about Two-Bit, Dally, really any of the Greasers. Or Bob- the Soc that Johnny murdered. He is my 2nd favorite character. Yes that is so stupid but I love him too much for no good reason one day I just joked with a friend about Bob being my favorite and it came true-