#rereading Gideon the Ninth and thinking about it

[saltcherry]

cannot for the life of me discover the point that Muir is trying to make with

a. the eugenicist policies of the Houses re: breeding for necromantic aptitude, maximizing genetic diversity, etc.

b. the innate physical weakness that necromantic aptitude causes.

c. the presumed/implied genetic incompatibility between the resurrected/their descendants/“thanergy” planet births and the conquered/independent peoples on “thalergy” planets.

d. the mutation of life-forms on “flipped” planets.

What is the relation between all these things, both lore-wise and thematically?? I cannot tell!!

[booksandothersecrets]

Thinking about this for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and

[puffywiz]

you can crown this bitch with so many crowns

[narlwhal-in-a-trashcan]

Nona is such a silly sweetie-pie

[lamentablequeen]

okay to be SO fucking for real about it? just now realized. there's definitely a lot of different reasons kiriona's named what she is. but firstly and foremostly can you IMAGINE how the houses would react if they knew god's heir was SOME RANDO FROM THE NINTH?? well. not so good it doesn't seem!

[notedchampagne]

vote now on your phones:

if you want to find the passage its page 164, chapter 16

i know about the permeability of souls but i love a good forced binary decision

[sparksandstarsandstories]

So if someone who knows like. Actual advanced gender theory (all I have is like 2 gender studies classes and tumblr.com) could chime in here that would be great but

I feel like there’s potentially an argument to be made about necromancers and cavaliers as some version of a gender binary within the tlt universe?

I feel like there’s an argument to be made that necro and cav are genders

[neil-jortson]

I cannot begin to describe my level of confusion rn

[necromancy-savant]

The Locked Tomb: What Happened to the 10 Billion Souls?

After reading Nona, I had to go back and read Gideon and Harrow again to look for clues about the 10 billion souls Nona invites you to question about, and I think I've figured it out. In Harrow, Teacher explains that the reason John and his disciples built Canaan House and researched Lyctorhood in the first place was because as a practical matter, John couldn't keep using his magic to keep the others alive forever: "'necromancy alone does not confer eternal life...They had to stay tucked near the Emperor's feet so as not to strain his powers" (HtN 150). But would Alecto's body, that John made for her, also need to be sustained in such a fashion? And if so, what exact amount of energy would it take to sustain her, if normal Lyctors only require one other, human soul? Her soul is massive and only contains part of John's human soul:

You weren't the small, strained soul of a normal human being. You were so much bigger than that...Fuck knows what would've happened if I tried to absorb you all the way...But I needed a house to put you in, if I wasn't going to put all of you in me (NtN 423).

While it does not say anywhere that this particular energy exchange must be equal, there are multiple references in the series to the concept of energy transfer and an expectation that things should "add up." It also notes that in a case such as Harrow's conception and birth, it can take the energy of many souls to get the desired effect (see HtN 139 and 165). I theorize that John and his original Lyctors put those 10 billion souls into Alecto's body to keep her going in the same way as the other Lyctors because that's the number of souls it would take to equal hers.

There are a few more direct allusions to such a theory. John likens the soul of a planet to a "communal soul" in the same way that a "human being" is "a sack of microbial life" (HtN 38). Teacher says that he was "only a man, or perhaps fifty men," but what's in the Ninth House is a "zoo" (HtN 352). Teacher himself was notably only a "prototype" for something else (GtN 388), presumably a version of the same thing on a larger scale.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I believe those souls, forever trapped within Alecto's body in the same fate as the souls of the original Lyctors' cavaliers (and on a much greater scale, with so many more of them), are the true "cost" (GtN 368, 461; HtN 35) or "price" (GtN 398; HtN 165, 352, 371) of the Resurrection and of keeping Alecto, and by extension John, Dominicus, and all of the Nine Houses, alive.

[luthiery]

hiiiiii gideon <3

[fingertipsmp3]

No thoughts in my head just Biblical allegories in the Locked Tomb

[abigail-pent]

HTN Act Two thoughts upon ??th reread:

- what Harrow actually says about her conception in this book is: "My parents gassed fifty-four infants, eighty-one children, and sixty-five teenagers, and harnessed that thanergy bloom to conceive me. My mother used the resultant power to modify her ovum on a chromosomal level, so thanergy ignition wouldn't compromise the embryo. She did this so I would be a necromancer." This is extremely interesting, especially with respect to the question of "is necromancy canonically genetic." It reads to me like the genetic modification to the ovum happened to protect the embryo from being destroyed through exposure to so much thanergy. The way I read this, necromancy is not genetic but rather epigenetic: exposure to outside stimuli causes genes to express differently than they otherwise would. The genetic changes are about ensuring survival.

this is completely consistent with what Harrow says about it in GTN. note that in the GTN pool scene, Gideon says "You can't just control whether or not you're carrying a necro" and Harrow replies "Yes, you can, if you have the resources, and are willing to pay the price of using them." I think if necromancy were just a matter of genetic modification, all the other Houses would be able to get necromancers on command, thanks to their superior fetal care tech. and then it wouldn't seem so obvious to Gideon that necromancy occurs randomly (or conditionally randomly).

- John says the ovum that became Harrow "ought to have been obliterated at a subatomic level" when Pelleamena and Priamhark modified it. Hmmm.

- "nobody has the right to know! nobody has the right to blame you!" oof wow uh. projection much? and like. I do agree that nobody has the right to blame Harrow for what her parents did, but they absolutely should hold them responsible... it's been said before but this is such projection and it's so bullshit

- when Alecto says: "you don't fear dying. you can tolerate pain. you are afraid that your life has incurred a debt that your death cannot pay. you see death as a mistake." and Harrow says "what else is it?" and Alecto says "I don't know" OOH. OOH. and like from Harrow's own letter to herself it's clear that she does view death as a mistake and a failure, an inability to finish the work. and her work isn't to become a Lyctor, it's to restore the Ninth and, I think, to restore Gideon.

- "Beloved, what were my eyes like?"/"She asked me not to tell you": so at some point before the lobotomy, Harrow managed to communicate with Alecto, even though the Harrow whose narrative we get via Gideon says she only walked with the Body for a year. Was Alecto visiting Harrow even during GTN?

- Ianthe says she carried off Corona's con, which is interesting that she assigns Corona ownership over it

- Augustine says "I should chuck things in the River more often. There's no way that could come back to haunt me" which feels like a pretty clear sign that something that's been chucked into the River will definitely come back to haunt them. Could it be... Augustine? Ulysses? Colum? The Tower, which is rising from the River and has for sure been haunting everyone with its tongue guys made from ten billion unfed ghosts? All of the above?

- Augustine says "you've formed a bond with [your body] through habit and genetics", which helps the soul adhere to the body... you know, like a revenant would do. Which is of course cuing me to think once again about Silas/Colum and the Eighth breeding batteries, or Harrow/Alecto and the strength of their bond. It seems like one function of the genetics in the bond between Silas and Colum (or the Tridentarii, or Alecto and Harrow) is that it helps you call a soul *to* you. To me this is another point in favor of the "cosmic Tridentarii walkie talkie" theory and the "Harrow is a descendant of both Anastasia and Alecto" theory.

- like when the soul goes bungee jumping in the River, the tether is made of anything exposed to its thalergy and thanergy before or after death (and gets stronger the more exposure there is), AND genetics.

- I know I've posted about this one before but - Augustine says Mercy has shot her bolt too many times and rendered herself unlovable; he says she was interested in trying to kill Lyctors; he says these things to her and, in the second case, in front of John. who did she try to kill?? I don't think it would have been Cassiopeia, but other than that I really don't have a good guess. Could be Augustine or Gideon; could have been Cyth if she asked Mercy to kill her and end her suffering. we don't have enough info about Cyrus or Ulysses to say.

- John says Gideon the First has "made a pact with an authority I have no power to gainsay to protect me from all dangers". This can only be Alecto or Pyrrha - probably Pyrrha- but if so, wild to think of the Pyrrha we know asking this.

- it is so funny how Ortus hates Protesilaus on sight

- many have noted this before but Gideon the First is described very much like Protesilaus was in GTN

[vivaciouscynner]

I began reading Gideon the Ninth again - i dunno, it's like the 6th reread so far. And It's actually a good thing that I read digital copies because if I had the physical book, I'd literally take a bite like a sandwich. Like an actual bite with my teeth. It drives me so insane that I'd be motivated to keep going as my gums bleed trying to saw through the cardboard covers (yeah, I'd buy hard cover) and violently grunting until my upper central incisors meet my lower. Like wtf has this book done to me.

"Oh, Griddle! But I don't even remember about you most the time!" I've been internally screaming about this line. Violently screaming because the book is almost completely centered around this lie. It's not even the end where it's all revealed so bluntly with "I am undone without you!" but literally the same chapter where she explains, "I got more hot and bothered digging all night."

OH YEAH, I BARELY THINK ABOUT YOU, I JUST THOUGHT TO, YOU KNOW, DIG THROUGH PACKED DIRT WITH MY BARE FUCKING HANDS ALL GODDAMN NIGHT SO THAT I NEVER SEE YOU LEAVE. BECAUSE YOU LEAVING WILL UNMAKE ME, BUT YOU KNOW... LIKE... AN AFTERTHOUGHT... YOU GET IT

There are so many one liners where I just have to put the book down for a bit and pace around the room manically.

This book makes me so unwell and yet - AND YET - I'm like, "gee what happens on the NEXT page!"

[fortjester]

since you're open to requests about the locked tomb data collection...

a spreadsheet on how many times the book points out someone eye color would be so cool since they are so important to the plot!

i'm rereading GtN and "dulcie" got her eye color named so very often compared to other characters. the fourth interestingly got their eyes described right before dying and gideon's eyes i think so far got only named by dulcie...

anyway don't worry if it's too much work i just thought i'd ask since you said you like tasks!

Tracked down all descriptions of eye colour (in Gideon the Ninth only), have listed (paperback) page numbers here:

for better, more immediate reference, i have also transcribed each description below the cut, as well:

[knaveofswords]

Thinking about TLT and specifically, how many times Gideon has died in the books.

As a baby, when she arrived at the Ninth. I've seen meta about Wake sacrificing her oxygen for Gideon, and while that could be interesting, I don't believe it. Gideon died as a newborn infant without any oxygen, with Wake.

Obviously as a kid with the poison gas or whatever it was that Harrow's parents did to conceive Harrow.

Avulsion trial! It's text that she shouldn't have survived that, that she died.

And also obviously when she throws herself on the spikes.

I'd have to go back and reread GtN to see if there are any others I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

But I do think she definitely did die; John was capable of dying, too-- Dominicus flickered in HtN when Mercymorn killed him. He just came back, is all. Gideon is the same. She can die, but she can also come back (unless someone eats her soul-- and even then! She still came back!)

[nonasbirthday]

so what order do all of these extra stories go in? I'm confused, I know there's others beside the unwanted guest

Yeah, it's a lot to sort out! (What a lovely problem - to have lots of bonus content!) If you have already read GTN, HTN, and NTN I wouldn't stress too much about the reading order; the short stories don't interface with each other as much as they interface with the novels. But if you were to line up the novels and the short stories chronologically, it would look something like this:

The Mysterious Study of Dr. Sex - takes place pre-GTN

Gideon the Ninth

As Yet Unsent - takes place between the end of GTN and the middle of HTN

Harrow the Ninth

Nona the Ninth

The Unwanted Guest - takes place during the latter part of NTN

And then of course there is some additional content at the end of the first two books which are not quite official short stories (I don't think) but have some valuable tidbits in them! Even the glossaries and pronunciation guides have me doing double-takes sometimes as I reread. GTN has "A Sermon on Cavaliers and Necromancers" and "Cohort Intelligence Files." HTN has a "Blood of Eden Memorandum for Record." I have the paperbacks of GTN and HTN so I am not sure if these are included in the hardcovers. (Edit: it seems the extra content is not included in the hardcovers or the audiobooks.) But in any case I would say these are best read exactly where they are at the end of each book.

I don't think I'm forgetting anything, but I hope folks will add on if I am!