#rhaenyra vs mysaria

[horizon-verizon]

Why are people so obsessed with the idea that Daemon must have killed Laenor and slept with Mysaria and Nettles to be gray? And that if we take it away, it no longer has any ambiguity? That's the worst bullshit I've ever heard! I don't think he killed Laenor or slept with Nettles. For Mysaria, it can be true as well as false, but honestly, I don't care about that part because if it happened, Rhaenyra had given her consent. To come back to Laenor's death, I definitely don't understand this obsession that we are absolutely certain to say that it happened with certainty. The number of people I saw outraged that Daemon didn't kill Laenor on the show, that he was cleared... It kills me with laughter. While obviously complaining of demonizing the Greens. People have a problem with the Targaryens and their most popular characters that I don't understand, always wanting to take them down and demonize them as much as possible.

As for Rhaenyra giving consent, it's kinda troubling to use the argument. Because I also see how she wouldn't. Even with her being so grief-stricken, maybe wanting to be alone, etc.

Because she could still want Daemon to show he's loyal to her by not sleeping with someone who would have had his first-ever child. That has got to be uncomfortable at least, anxiety-wracking at most. Since she lost her kid Visenya and could have wanted Daemon to not put his focus away from her, even if she did reject sex. The knowledge that he's there could be enough. But of course, Gyldayn and the persons witnessing this dynamic don't have the necessary details for us to know for sure. And that's ambiguity.

As for killing Laenor, I still don't think book!Daemon did it. Or that book!Rhaenyra did it.

She still needed Laenor's existence to make sure her sons were safe and were named Velaryon/legitimate by Viserys and Corlys while being with Harwin and getting her desire for intimacy and companionship fulfilled.

And Daemon was living in Driftmark with Laena, their daughters, and Laenor was alive while Laenor lived. Very close to the Velaryons in their own domain to risk it. He had time enough to have him killed before Rhaenyra and Laena grew their friendship, which lasted for 5-6 years I believe. Laena also died before Laenor. We don't think Laena would have noticed Daemon's demeanor change or any movements to suspect him of planning something against her brother? Yet, again, she lived well and was happy with him and Rhaenyra for 5-6 years.

And you're right, it wouldn't be "grey" morally if he killed Laenor. It'd just be amoral. Because he would have killed a likable person purely for power, while still married to the man's sister while being a father to the man's uncle, and living under the man's ancestral home.

[kazz-brekker]

hotd episode 9 thoughts:

thought i might miss rhaenyra & daemon & co in this episode, but there was enough tension and drama that i honestly didn’t and i think it was a good choice to have the whole episode be centered around the greens.

i do have to admit i’m a little amused that the way they stretched out the green council plot was by having people run around king’s landing looking for aegon. an egg hunt, one might say…

olivia cooke was absolutely FANTASTIC in this episode she did such a good job of showing how alicent was pulled between her love for rhaenyra and what she thought was her duty.

rip lyman beesbury you spent most of your screen time talking about boring finance stuff but you were a real one when it counted.

let out an actual flinch when they mentioned storm’s end and lord baratheon’s unmarried daughters. if you know you know.

helaena with her bug embroidery was so cute.

i don’t know who in this fandom coined the phrase “mommy’s favorite war criminal” in relation to aemond and alicent but i am literally incapable of not thinking it when they have a scene together now, so that’s your influence.

rhaenys was such a badass in this episode, i love her very much. her scene where she told alicent that she wasn’t seeking freedom but rather to make a window in her prison wall … oh hell yeah it was everything i wanted someone to say to alicent.

the whole otto vs alicent plot was SO good i am ready for their relationship to fall apart. alicent calling him out for manipulating her whole life was incredibly satisfying, i’ve literally been waiting all season for it.

criston cole saying all women are made in the image of the mother and they should be treated with reverence … i believe that’s what we call irony.

i enjoyed aemond complaining about aegon and how he should be king instead, it was a great insight into his character. also, aemond targaryen canonical nerd.

i do have to respect mysaria for just being totally on her own side with her own agenda and willing to support whoever will further it.

her stuffing aegon underneath the sept to keep him safe was honestly kind of hilarious.

aegon running away from his coronation was a bit funny but mostly just very sad. he doesn’t want it! he doesn’t want to be king! this whole tragedy could have been averted if not for the forces pushing him around!

the fight between aegon and aemond WAS extremely funny though. the hair pulling, the spitting, the rolling around on the ground shouting … peak sibling behavior.

as a twin i greatly enjoyed the building tension between erryk and arryk and their conflict about serving aegon, it’s going to lead to so much drama.

i could have lived a long and happy life without seeing that scene between alicent and larys. but unfortunately i have seen it. and now i must life with the trauma.

big fan of how completely dead-eyed and miserable aegon looked during the coronation scene, props to tom glynn-carney for his acting.

the scene with rhaenys and meleys bursting through the bottom of the dragonpit was extremely cool and i was rooting VERY hard for her to murder aegon even though i know it wasn’t going to happen. your dragon stepped on a bunch of people what’s torching one guy after that!

category 5 event imminent i spy aemond taking off his eyepatch and vhagar up to no good in the trailer for episode 10. 

literally since the moment this show was announced i have been steeling myself to see That Event at storm’s end adapted and now that we’re almost there i would like to publicly announce that i am still! not! ready!!

[daenerysies]

someone sent me an anon ask about the anti rhaenyra agenda most rhaenicent shippers have and like a dumbass i accidently deleted it so i'm just going to try my best to re-answer it here (yes i wrote a whole spiel about it and now it's gone forever and i'm upset.)

from what i can tell there are only two reasons as to why people can't stand rhaenyra but love rhaenicent; and it's because they either have some heavy internalized misogyny OR that's the only way to continue and keep their uwu sad lesbian alicent headcanons semi-tethered in reality. alicent is a character that has next to no positive interactions with other characters, least of all any women. she has a 'good' (and i say that lightly) relationship with rhaenyra for 2 episodes in hotd, and then they are adversaries for the rest of the show. the only other women we see her interact with are helaena and her lady in waiting talya ( who regularly spied on her for mysaria) and minus talya, those are the same female relationships she has in f&b. she doesn't really have a good track record with anyone.

in the book she terrorized rhaenyra from aegon's birth up until rhaenyra's death. rather than teaching her son to rule and raising him to be an upstanding prince of the realm she instead spent her time calling rhaenyra, a literal child, a slut, she accepted criston into her service as her own personal protector in spite of his predatory behavior towards rhaenyra (which she acknowledges), and continuously tries to have rhaenyra and her sons disinherited and killed due to her own spreading of the bastard rumors. not to mention that she was eighteen when she married viserys to rhaenyra's nine. there's really nothing romantic about it. in the show almost everything is still the same except for her being the one to arrange helaena's marriage to her known degenerate and rapist son (in f&b viserys is the one who had them marry) and most likely told her the same rhetoric of rhaenyra killing them to secure her claim that she told her sons from when they were babies up until the coup. with rhaenyra she still antagonizes her because she (lemme check again, told alicent she didn't sleep with daemon and got otto fired because he was working against the crown to install his grandson as heir over her). don't even get me started on the villainization of rhaenyra in order to uphold alicent's constant victimization storyline. alicent is the one who abused rhaenyra, not the other way around, and the age changes in the show (which are so stupid omg) only serve to make alicent more sympathetic and rhaenyra an apparent privileged brat who doesn't understand what it's like to suffer because of the men in her life and therefore deserves her fate (i can literally see the entire galaxy with how far back my eyes are rolled rn.)

if the show wanted to include or focus on two women who were torn apart by the patriarchy and the men around them, helaena's blank character was right there for the taking (and would've been even juicier with the sister vs sister, queen consort vs queen regnant debacle.) she has no personality in the book or any relevance besides losing her children in violent ways and going mad, they definitely could have made her a more present character on screen in a manner that adds an actual emotional connection to her but alas, rhaenicent is top priority. furthering that, if the show wanted to include queer representation with their leading lady, laena had more hints in the text for that type of relationship than anything the show has given us for the rhaenyra/alicent dynamic, even with how hard they're trying to force it down our throats.

the entire relationship has made the story go completely off kilter because the show won't just let it be, and it's affected almost all of their other relationships. they're not going to convince me that rhaenyra cares about alicent more than her own children or even vice versa (though in an entirely different manner) and that reconciliation is possible in spite of aemond murdering luke. it makes both the characters and the writers look like delusional idiots. there's absolutely no reason for these types of glaring mistakes in a series where characterization and the relationships that revolve from them are the reason it's so popular amongst the masses. this lack of proper relationship building has caused hotd to feel a lot more shallow and lackluster than what you'd expect with how massive it's budget was when they created it, the amount of talented actors they casted, and the literal blueprint laid out of what not to do that got season eight is. someone should have taken accountability for these dumb decisions and realized how quickly they're streamlining straight towards what ruined game of thrones in the first place.

[bohemian-nights]

HOTD has a misogynoir problem and it’s the reason why the fandom refuses to see Rhaenyra as a “villain” in Nettles story

The HOTD fandom has divided itself along the lines of the two factions of the Dance, team black vs. team green as if they themselves are actual members of the teams they root for. The inability to see nuance has resulted in major disagreements between the two camps. However, there is something seemingly that the majority of fans irrespective of their chosen team will agree on.

When it comes to the Rhaenyra, Nettles, and Daemon situation, Rhaenyra is viewed as an unquestionable victim of equal, near equal, or in some cases greater status to Nettles.

Despite the fact that she is the one that orders Nettles to be executed in her sleep, she’s somehow a woman we should all feel sorry for and take pity upon because she just had a little “breakdown.” It’s really Mysaria’s fault because she told a “lie” that Daemon and Nettles were sleeping(according to Team Black). Or it’s Daemon’s fault because he “groomed” Nettles like Rhaenyra(according to Team Green).

To put it plainly, Rhaenyra’s victimhood is due to the fact that the fandom will not view a “white” woman as the antagonist of the situation when a “black” woman is involved. It does not matter that she orders the death of an innocent young woman for merely sleeping with her husband. It does not matter that she used classism and racism(before you say “Rhaenyra isn’t a racist,” go ahead and replace “low creature” with the “n-word” then get back to me) to justify murdering said innocent woman.

Her actions are labeled as a result of stress brought about by the loss of her children. Pinning or rather passing the blame upon others who are less sympathetic. Mysaria(who though white in the books is now half Asian in the show and book(s) she is both a foreigner and a prostitute) and Daemon(who’s a white man). The HOTD fandom will not see Rhaenyra as being in the wrong because they view her as an innocent white woman. This article details this assumption, particularly in this paragraph:

In the case of Nettles, who is a brown-skinned black woman, while Rhaenyra does not cry she does have a strong emotional outburst that fans sympathize with. Nettles is seen as a victim, but the woman who tries to perpetuate racially motivated violence against her is also seen as an equal(and depending on who you ask greater) victim. Thus her own victimhood and innocence is lessened.

As far as the “lie” and the “grooming” accusations go, that too can be blamed upon fans' inability to see past their own innate racial bias.

To these fans, Nettles is only an acceptable and likable character when they can put her into a specific box of characterization. That box being that she is unquestionably a child.

She could not have slept with Daemon because she’s a child(she’s his child or he sees her like his child). Or she was groomed by Daemon because she’s a child. She can not be competition, sexual or otherwise, to Rhaenyra because she’s a child. If Nettles is a child she is not a threat because who is threatened by a child?

(Note, this is the whole reason why fans will “fawn” over Rhaena and Baela, when they don’t ignore that they exist or when they are trying to prop up a dead deformed fully white baby, because they aren’t “competition” in that way since they are Rhaenyra’s stepdaughters. Plus they are “white” in the books).

Nettles is a child in their eyes even though by Westeros standards she is an adult:

She did not sleep with Daemon even though the text explicitly frames their relationships as being romantic and sexual(unless you consider it normal for a father to bathe with his daughter).

She was groomed like Rhaenyra(again bringing in Rhaenyra’s victimhood so as to take away from her crimes) even though she’s an adult and her relationship with Daemon is described in a different manner than Daemon and Rhaenyra’s relationship beginnings.

This:

Versus this:

The only similarities are the gift giving and even then the gifts are of a completely different nature with a different motivation attached to them.

Nettles literally was homeless prior to the Dance so Daemon gifting her clothes, a hairbrush, and a mirror was actually what she needed. Daemon gifts these items and his affection without getting anything in return besides her company.

Daemon’s most selfless acts are done for Nettles. When it comes down to it, he is even willing to lay down his life for her. He sends her away to save her life, the life of a bastard girl who is looked down upon by even her defenders (like Corlys who calls her dirty and ill-favored) at the expense of his own. Disobeying his wife and queen's orders in the process, thus if he is grooming her, he sure is going about it the wrong way.

Unlike Nettles, Rhaenyra was actually underage(14 seeing how she was born in 97AC and the events detailed here happen in 111AC) by Westeros standards when Daemon begins his “courting” of her.

(The last little tidbit also proves that Daemon can not be Nettles' biological father seeing how he was in the Stepstones from late 111 AC until 115 AC and since Nettles turns 17 in 130 AC she was born on Driftmark in 113 AC).

Keep in mind that many of these fans who call Daemon and Nettles relationship abusive, label it as grooming, or deny it exists will gleefully ship Daemyra or Alysmond while saying that they are #toxic couple goals in an approving manner, that they are an epic romance and are or are going to be the OTP of the show, or wanting to see them be a #power couple.

Daemyra is straight-up grooming and as established earlier, even by Westeros standards Rhaenyra was actually a minor.

As far as Team Greens ship goes, Alysmond has the same power dynamic problems Dattles(Daemon x Nettles). Alys is a 40+ year(s) old woman(she’s described as being at least twice Aemond’s age). While Aemond is 19 or 20 in the books and 16-18 in the show.

Aemond is a prince while Alys is a bastard and a wet nurse. When Aemond takes Harrenhal he kills her entire family while sparing her and taking her as his mistress or rather a spoil of war. The stuff of romance novels people. (Note, I do like Alysmond, but to say it’s somehow better than Dattles is a huge stretch).

What do Daemyra and Alysmond have that Dattles does not? All parties involved are white. Fans don’t mind or are willing to overlook and ship emotionally manipulative incestuous based relationships or questionable power dynamic relationships, as long as both partners are white.

Both sides of the fandom infantilize Nettles to give her a sense of innocence, of blamelessness to the circumstances that befall upon her, while at the same time protecting Rhaenyra’s innocence by giving them a shared “villain.” Usually Daemon(and in some cases Mysaria).

The fandom can only sympathize with her when they view her as a child because a black woman who is a victim of racial violence at the hands of a white woman isn’t relatable. It just shouldn’t be because Rhaenyra is innocent.

Ultimately Nettles is not viewed as a dynamic character who is worthy of a complete arc that includes a heterosexual (I imagine fans would cheer on Rhaenyra and Nettles being together a la “Rhaenyra and Laena” which many fans cared more about than Laena’s relationship that she had with her husband, the father of her two girls who she had a loving marriage with in the books) romantic relationship. Especially with someone like Daemon.

She has to be a child because otherwise if Nettles is seen as a fully sexual being capable of making her own decisions, capable of consenting to a romantic relationship with a man who wants her in turn, a man who is willing to choose her over his white Valyrian(Aryan) wife, a wife who in her anger and jealousy seeks to enact violence upon her as a result of said consensual impossible relationship, she disrupts the natural order of things.

This phenomenon of desexualizing Black women characters who are love interests isn’t new or unique to HOTD. In fact, it’s pretty common in fandoms and is born as a result of misogynoir. This article is on the character Nyota Uhura from Star Trek, but it mirrors what is happening to Nettles right now:

The whole blog is a goldmine on fandom racism, particularly fandom misogynoir. I urge you to check it out especially if you are going to “speak out” on Black female characters when you yourself aren’t Black(this includes other “WOC”).

And before you say, “But Bohemian people ship Nettles with Daeron or Jace so they aren’t trying to completely desexualize her nor do they care about her being with white men because both Daeron and Jace are white,” hold onto that.

While there are some genuine fans of these crackships(neither have any basis in canon and Nettles never even meets Daeron) most of these “fans” are doing so because they know that it looks racist to desexualize Nettles, the only in-canon black character, to the point where she’s the only one without a love interest.

Yes, both Daeron and Jace are white, but you need to look at who their characters are. Daeron has no love interest in book canon so Nettles doesn’t threaten any white woman’s desirability since there is none to threaten.

Jace does have an in-canon love interest(s), Baela. and Sara Snow. They might change it up in the show, but in the books, Jace and Baela aren’t really a couple for long since he goes to the North and meets Sara Snow who he may have married. Sara Snow is a controversial character.

Most fans either don’t believe she exists(and they think she’s Cregan) or they don’t want her to exist(the fandom has a classism and a bastard problem in addition to racism, but again I’m not getting into that today).

Daeron hasn’t even shown up on the show yet(so mostly book fans are invested in him)and while he’ll probably be popular I doubt he’ll reach Daemon let alone Aemond’s popularity.

Jace dies soon into the narrative(he might die this upcoming season). He’s pretty boring in the show and outside of him being one of Rhaenyra’s baseborn sons I don’t think too many people actually care about him.

People are comfortable with putting Nettles with characters like Daeron and Jace solving many birds with one stone while not really stepping on any toes(especially the toes of white women who they actually care about).

It stops people from shipping Nettles with Daemon, because he is too desirable to be with a black woman especially when it would impact his Valyrian queen, it gives Daeron a love interest, keeps Sara Snow from showing up, and keeps the racist allegations off fans back. They are the comfortable choices. They are the non-threatening choices.

So to wrap this commentary up, the HOTD fandom has finally found something which to unite both the Greens and the Blacks. Trying to pidgin hole black female characters into narrow boxes of “acceptable” characterization that desexualizes them which serves to protect white female characters, who they sympathize with, innocence and desirability. As always, nothing brings together a fandom like good old-fashioned racism repackaged as “caring.”

[mazverdarekostoba]

fire and blood alicent vs house of the dragon alicent.

One of the ‘’criticisms’’ of the most annoying criticisms of the show is how ryan and co made alicent ‘’’weak’’ and ‘’submissive’’ to the men around her and ‘’’we want book! Alicent’’ , but if they had actually read the book or just the ‘Dance’ they would know that this is not the case. Here are some comparisons of f&b alicent vs hotd alicent.

show alicent: makes a statement at rhaenyra’s wedding; according to hotd: green dress = declaring war.

book alicent: wears a green dress to her & viserys’ 5th wedding anniversary, rhaenyra wears black – the beginning of blacks vs greens;

show alicent: request to see the baby the moment it’s born; ‘’keep trying ser leanor..’’ comment.

book alicent: eventually makes that comment about joffrey, but no mention of her ‘’inspecting’’ joff or any of rhaenyra’s other 2 kids.

show alicent: rejects rhaenyra’s proposal to marry jace to helaena.

book alicent: no proposal is ever made, viserys himself marries helaena (who was 13) to aegon.

show alicent & criston: are the reason why harwin was sent home; larys eventually decides to kill his dad and brother for his own gain, tells alicent and makes her an acomplince. + gets power over her.

book alicent and criston: have nothing to do with harwin being sent away,  viserys does it himself after the kids fight.

show alicent: attacks rhaenyra with a knife

book alicent: she and rhaenyra kiss and exchange words of love (forced by viserys)

show alicent: support vaemond’s petiton

book: vaemond never makes a petition, rhaenyra finds out what he has been saying, sends daemon to kill him; his family eventually comes to seek justice. – nothing to do with alicent.

the green council in the show: the stupidest thing the show did, all of the capable council members thought the best case scenario is to just men to kill the other half of the royal family + the ‘’grandsons’’ and granddaughter of house velaryon? Alicent being against the kill of all of them was smart and normal reaction. 

the green council in the book: there is the mention of the danger they would be in if rhaenyra takes the throne and how ‘’daemon would find any reason to put them to the sword, even helaena and her little ones’’.. no one talks about killing them; it was aegon who wanted rhaenyra and daemon killed only after she crowned herself and EVERYONE was of course against it as it’s a very stupid move; even aegon didn’t want all of them dead,,, (the show was really pushing it, not mentioning their fears of daemon, especially with the rumors of leanor’s ‘’death’’ and what happened to vaemond, but they are the ones who want to kill the other side of the family?)

also, there is no way to know if alicent loved viserys or whenver she was happy with him, she was still a young girl (18) married to someone who WANTED HER and her ‘’job’’ was to provide him with heirs – and so she did.  Book alicent could be a victim just like show alicent is – because you would never know since we have no POVs – just rumors.  

show alicent: orders the killing of mysaria and her spies, giving mysaria a reason to go after them.

book alicent: never happened.

[fatum679]

Hello, sorry to brother you again, please lmk if u have enough of my rants 🤣. I wanna ask , don't you think it's somewhat crazy that due to this ridiculous a*ysmond vs. helaemond ship war, the character of Helaena Targaryen seems to have more haters among the TG than TB part of the fandom? I legit know several TB supporters/ content creators who claim Helaena deserves better and it will be cool if it turns out she has kids with someone who likes and respects her(=Aemond). Also, even TBs point out if the showrunners want to give Aemond a romantic subplot, helaemond will be a better option, since unlike a*ysmond , this relationship is a consensual one + Aemond's protectiveness and attachment to his sister appear pretty obvious... It's such a pity some Green fans diminish Hel's clairvoyance and claim it's useless and she's far less powerful seer and less interesting character than A*ys. They want A*ys' magic to be explored further, and not Hel's. Which I totally don't understand, since in GOT, we have already seen greenseers, woods witches and even Red Priests, but we still don't know much about dragon dreamers. Imo focusing on Targaryen magic in a Targaryen -centric show would be a far better idea. Also, HOTD's portrayal of Helaena could potentially be a really refeshing and original take on a magical woman. I mean unlike stereotypical sorceresses, usually dark-haired, clad in flowy, dusky gowns and dwelling in fantastic, Gothic manors, Hel looks like a sweet Princess ,but she's still blood of the dragon and a seer. I mean she doesn't need Gothic aesthetics and stuff to be "magical", since she herself is magic!

Hello! I'm glad to see your questions and glad that you are interested in my opinion 😊

The asoiaf fandom has always been toxic, no matter if you discuss books or series, there have always been wars in the fandom. Treat it like a game and don't spend a lot of energy on it.

Yes, there is a war of ships going on now. It's true, alysmond stans is the anti-Helaena and the anti-Helaemond. I don't understand why TG thinks Alys is part of the green party. Alys is not green. She has her own personal interests and goals.

Dance of the dragons is a Targaryen story, Alys is not a Targaryen, she is just a tertiary character (like Mysaria), she will not have more time.

I really want to see more of Helaena as a character, more of her magical abilities, more of her personality, more of her connection to the people of King's Landing, her family, her children, and her dragon. Rhaenyra did more action (in the book she sat on Dragonstone for the entire war), so I'm sure Helaena will have a lot of screen time.

Helaena doesn't have to be a stereotypical and banal goth girl. Comparing her to Alys is a waste of time. Helaena is beautiful, she looks like an elf and a fallen angel to girls from sagas.

Helaegon stans opposes Aemond, and they don't like all the allusions to Helaemond. I'm not anti-Aegon, but I'm anti-helaegon because there was no love between Aegon and Helaena in the show or even in the book. It was a forced marriage. Aegon had a mistress and other children. helaegon is lmao. helaegon is an abusive relationship. Abusive to Helaena. This is the reality and the truth.

“Princess Helaena was breaking her fast with her children when the Kingsguard came to her…but when asked the whereabouts of Prince Aegon, her brother and husband, she said only, “He [Aegon] is not in my bed, you may be sure. Feel free to search beneath the blankets””

“Though the good septon admits Prince Aegon was with a paramour when he was found, he insists the girl was the daughter of a wealthy trader, and well cared for besides”

“We have nothing in common”, “You [Aemond] marry her [Helaena], then”

“She's an idiot”

“I regret the disappointment you [Baela] are soon to suffer. But if you ever wish to kniw what it is to be well satisfied, all you have to do is ask”

“It isn’t so bad. Mostly he just ignores you…except sometimes when he’s drunk”.

“Think of the shame on your wife, on me” [Aegon r*p*d the Dyana who helped Helaena with her babys]

“I will find a ship and sail away, never to be found” [Aegon wanted to run away, abandon Helaena and her children]

I think Aegon always wanted to be on Rhaenyra's side. Perhaps he thought that Viserys would start to notice him and love him if he was closer to his older sister than to his other siblings. Even as a child, he was more interested in spending time with his nephews, and he did not take Alicent's words seriously until Aemond's eye was gouged out (Aemond could have died after such a wound)

“If Rhaenyra come into power you very life could be forfeit. Aemond is as well. She could move to cut off any challenge to her succession”

“Then I won’t challenge”

Aegon has a bad relationship with his mother and siblings ("She's an idiot" "He's a twat"). I think Aegon was more interested in love from Viserys and Rhaenyra than from his real family.

“My sister is the heir, not me,” he says in Eustace’s account. “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?”

“He [Viserys]didn't like me”

Perhaps Aegon liked the idea of marrying Rhaenyra?

Sorry, I got a little off topic.

I agree with you, it would be great if Helaena's children were with the man she loves (Aemond). It is very sad and terrible that Helaena had to endure drunken se**ally har***ment from Aegon 🫣 😱 Poor girl 🥺 😭 I hate Aegon for this! Alicent, why did you let this happen? Helaena could have Aemond! Helaena was scared when Otto and Alicent asked her where Aegon was. She lowered her head - this is a gesture of protection. I don’t understand people who “like” Helaena and support the helaegon ship. They support abusive relationships and domestic vio**nce. It is a fact. This is anti-Helaena relationships.

#We need more Helaena in season 2!

[jonquilspool]

i actually do think blood and cheese should be rhaenyra's call. no 'oh noooooo someone went behind my back and killed children in my name. alas!' mysaria is coming to her saying 'wanna kill kids?' and rhaenyra is immediately on board. not only bc i think she should get to be a little evil too but also it would even the scales with team green in terms of war crimes (child murder vs wmd riverlands burning)

[princesssszzzz]

Team Black has interesting characters, but I need them to have more conflict with one another to see them truly shine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/nPLxtAKy0u

Thoughts on this post?

Hmmm I don’t fully agree. HOTD is a drama, but not a telemundo soap opera. They don’t need to argue with other characters in every scene to be interesting. They don’t need to create any problems, the problems are already there and just need to be fleshed out.

One of the issues with how people are reacting to these characters is trying to force their favorites to be villainous or nuanced like the Lannisters when no one in HOTD will ever come close to that. It’s forced “my fav is so bad and different”, especially when the characters have no agency and the few who do like Larys or Mysaria get ignored basically. My criticism for the show is not that I want all the characters to hate each other or it’s boring. I just want the characters to have natural reactions to what’s going on around them, and some of those reactions are negative. It doesn’t have to be plot altering or extreme. Like with Rhaena, I don’t expect her to HATE Daemon and start plotting his death. I just want them to talk about his behavior and have the show portray the effects it’s had on her. That’s actually very minor in the grand scheme of the story. People should also separate political vs personal happenings in the show because for some reason that keeps getting mixed. I like the realism of GOT, and it’s not realistic to have everyone on the same side in constant turmoil with each other. I genuinely get bored with main characters, so that’s just me. I get burnt out seeing the same character promoted over and over again. It’s like when they keep playing the same song on the radio it’s just annoying.

So I’m personally bored with most of the characters like Alicent, Rhaenyra, and majority of the them I won’t ever be interested in them and that’s how I was with GOT also. I don’t support either team, and people on both sides will claim the show is giving favoritism when really it’s…….both?? but only certain characters are being white washed so idk why people pick and choose when to have an issue with that. Rhaenyra has clearly been white washed but that’s not the only character. Like Aemond is a total horrible person in the book and now is allowed the grace to be the victim of teasing by Jace as a child that’s still brought up when he’s basically an adult now. He’s not controlling Vhagar, so not killing his nephew on purpose and people even vilify Baela and Rhaena claiming they started the war over wanting to claim Vhagar. Like if he’s a villain than he can’t be the victim at the same time. Characters like Rhaena are not given grace for their young age or how things in Westeros could be out of their control, so again people like to pick and choose and I don’t think the writers giving people conflict will stop a fandom from behaving like that.

Daemon is one of the morally worst characters right now (even if people ignore that) and will be that way when the show ends, and he’s actually portrayed as crazy. He himself I don’t think was white washed or portrayed as a good person, I just want the other characters to react to what he’s doing instead of just moving on to the next plot point. With Jace I’m interested in his character regardless if he’s portrayed as good or bad, but I just want him to have reactions to what’s going on in addition to his normal Dance plot if that’s makes sense. How he’s coping with being a bastard.

I kinda just gave up on Rhaenys and Corlys because I know they are just keeping Rhaenys around until she dies early in the war and Corlys will not always support team black. Season 1 Corlys is ridiculous and I think he’s been shown as ridiculous especially with trying to marry off Laena and they did have a scene with Rhaenys blatantly saying those aren’t their grandkids. But more is going to happen as the seasons go on. This is why I’m always comparing some of the the HOTD characters to their actual GOT counterparts and parallels. Rhaena and Baela especially they are surviving the war but they won’t have 8 seasons to flesh them out and then bring them back together so they can’t really have huge beef with people established to begin with bc it won’t be settled on screen. And people are not allowing time for the characters to actually be developed before trying to create some finalized view of them. They weren’t even in a full season. Idk why characters 16 and younger are adultified by the fandom when the grown ups are being treated like children. That’s so bizarre. Also for some reason a large section of the fandom only views the show and characters through a shipping lense and refuse to perceive the characters outside of that.

The characters I’m most interested in seeing interact is some what somewhat Daemon, Baela, Rhaena, and Jace & Aegon, Criston, and Otto and most of these characters will not have conflict. Criston and Aegon are about to be on the same page basically for the rest of the show. I don’t think Daemon and Baela will ever have serious beef on screen. And that goes way beyond the Dance because like I said in a post last year there’s more going on with them being girls in a patriarchal universe than people just yelling at the screen for them to do their own thing. We already know Jace doesn’t really like Daemon like that and the Daemon/Rhaena thing I’ve explained a couple times. Jace/ Baela interactions, it depends on how they portray Jace…….

[meraxesmoon]

I was on tiktok amd i saw a team green vs team black argument and omg... Its not that deep 💀

Why cant a person say they dont like a certain character? All of a sudden they are lectured about the topic until they are forced to change opinion, and on top of that get death threats about the subject 💀

The GOT/HOTD fandom is extremely too serious about fictional people who don't exist. Specifically speaking on team green v. team black, because if someone disagrees with someone on team black, they immediately get doxxed.

I personally don't identify with either team. They're both horrendous. Aegon and Rhaenyra both were horrible rulers, and a lot of people argue that Rhaenyra wasn't given enough time to be a good queen, which I can understand, but either way I don't think she would've been good. Aegon was a bad king because he didn't want the throne. The only reason he agreed to usurp Rhaenyra was because of the danger his family was put in.

I think the worst people in the fandom are Daemon stans and delusional Rhaenyra supporters. I have been very vocal about my dislike for Daemon, and I don't ever intend on being quiet about it. He's such a horrible person that I can not fathom why people say he's morally gray. He groomed his niece (this is in the book AND the show), and a lot of people defend this by saying Daemyra are soulmates or whatever, but he canonically likes younger girls, as said by Mysaria. Not younger women, GIRLS.

I think I've made it pretty clear how I feel about Blood and Cheese, as well. What happened to Lucerys was nowhere near close with what happened to Jaehaerys. Obviously Luke's death was horrible, but he wasn't a fucking toddler. Daemon is a coward, and saying that he redeemed himself by killing Aemond is fucking stupid.

I find a lot of team black people disgusting for being excited to see Blood and Cheese in the show, Why do you want to see a four year old boy get his throat slit?

As for Rhaenyra's supporters, I just think they're annoying. Specifically, those who enjoy the idea of her being on board with B&C (which she was not, Daemon did that behind her back). They're always pointing out how much she loved Helaena, and then they go and laugh about Helaena's children being stripped away from her.

"A son for a son" 🤓☝️

On another note, Alicent haters are the most unintelligent people you will EVER have the capability of talking to. They're all team women until it comes to Alicent and Helaena.

Ong, I literally saw someone say that Helaena and Alicent deserved to be r/ped

Proof

This is such a vent, but I quite literally cannot stand team black/green arguments, they're so unintelligent

[readerbell]

No. Nettles is not Daemon’s daughter.

No. Rhaena will not take on Nettles’ storyline no matter how hard Daemyra stans cry about it. George said just last week he’d love to have written a novella about Netty. The show isn’t going to get rid of one of his faves.

And no, Nettles isn’t Daemon’s daughter. That’s never even suggested. In fact, George goes out of his way to show how she tames Sheepstealer (a wild dragon) in the ways of the Shepherd Valyrians of old.

The closest Fire and Blood gets to suggesting a paternal relationship is Maester Norren saying he treats her as any man would a daughter. A man who doesn’t know Daemon would mistake special attention, gifts and constant companionship with a younger girl as that. The book never includes mention of Daemon’s relationship with his kids so idk why people think his actions towards Nettles are paternal as if he has a long history of paternal acts for his children. The only evidence we have of him acting like that is with the girl he goes on to marry: Rhaenyra herself.

In fact, let’s have a read of the different accounts about this relationship:

The Princess and the Queen suggests they’re lovers.

Norren’s account about the relationship being paternal isn’t in The Princess and the Queen. There, Daemon and Nettles are said to be lovers.

“Long leagues to the North in a castle overlooking The Bay of Crabs, another lord found himself sliding down a sword’s edge as well. From King’s Landing came a raven bearing the queen’s message to Manfryd Mooton, Lord of Maidenpool. He was to deliver her the head of the bastard girl Nettles who was said to become Prince Daemon’s lover.

The World of Ice and Fire outright calls them lovers:

Sheepstealer was eventually tamed by Nettles—a plain, baseborn, disreputable girl who fed the dragon mutton day by day until it became used to her. The dragon and its rider played their part in the war, but Nettles’s loyalties were not so clear as brave Ser Addam’s. When she and Prince Daemon became lovers it drove a final wedge between Rhaenyra and her lord husband.

The extra content from HBO in the GoT Blu-ray releases is clear they’re lovers

This also calls them lovers. They even have Oberyn narrate it for extra salaciousness.

As well as her dragon, the girl had taken to riding Daemon.

Fire and Blood falls on the side that they were

And in Fire and Blood itself, even Gyldayn concedes that given everything they know about Daemon, Mushroom might just be right this one time.

None of this constitutes proof that Daemon Targaryen had carnal knowledge of the bastard girl, but in light of what followed we must surely judge that more likely than most of Mushroom’s tales

The Rise of the Dragon suggests they were lovers

Then there’s the 2022 publication, The Rise of the Dragon, which doesn’t include any mention of a paternal relationship between the two of them. In fact, they say Norren supported the idea that Daemon & Nettles were lovers.

However, Mushroom suggested another cause for Daemon’s unwillingness: that he and Nettles had become lovers. This theory is supported by the Chronicles of Maidenpool, maintained by Lord Mooton’s maester, who remarked that the prince and Nettles were inseparable, their bedrooms were adjoining, and that Daemon often gave her gifts and even shared a bath with her.

So you have 4 different tellings of the story vs 1 that includes Norren’s and is easily dismissed in-world because it goes against Daemon’s nature and is contradicted by what others who were there saw too. Daemon was never faithful to Rhaenyra. He slept with Mysaria too but it’s Nettles people have a problem with. Why do you think the man who slept with other women at court would suddenly stop? We already know age isn’t the thing that stops him. He was always known for going for young girls. Nettles is definitely his preferred demographic. Not only that, she tamed a wild dragon without having Valyrian blood. She speaks to him in a way no one else does probably. She also tears down his world view about Targaryen exceptionalism in the way Brienne pierces Jaime’s own hubris about himself.

George replicates Cersei/Jaime/Brienne in this trio’s story. Rhaenyra becomes a tyrant, like Cersei. Daemon grows jaded by the war. He spends time with his Brienne like figure and starts to rethink things. Rhaenyra sends him an order calling him to return, just as Cersei does to Jaime as the Faith Militant turns against her. Jaime burns Cersei’s letter. Daemon allows Nettles to escape. Ceraxes’ wail breaks the windows on Jonquil’s Tower, named after one half of the most famous lovers in Westeros. Like them, Netty and Daemon are also tied together by the singers after this farewell (I think he dies but it’s notable that the singers memorialise them together).

After Daemon let’s Nettles go, he doesn’t return to Rhaenyra despite her order and the urgency of her need for him. He spends 2 whole weeks in Harrenhal. He never sends her a letter explaining his relationship with Nettles (if she’s his daughter as people love to say). He never flies to KL. He never even goes hunting for Aemond. He chooses to die all because she chose to order Nettles’ killing. Before that he’d been fighting to live.

I didn’t ship the two of them but given the racist undertones of so much of Daemyra stans’ hatred for her, I’m shipping this out of spite.

[prophecyqueen]

hi can i ask your opinion?)

have you seen the leaked audition video of the actor (cheese)? many are frustrated by the fact that jaehaerys will just be "kidnapped" by whitewashing blacks, i know many are looking forward to b&c because:

a) it's blacks who want "justice" for luke's death b) it's greens who want blacks (rhaenyra in particular) FINALLY would be shown as bad, and so that people began to empathize with them less.

may I know how do you personally see b&c, do you expect there to be a "brutal" scene or if the killers (cheese in particular) will be toned down? (given the fact that the twins are too small and can’t even talk, although they should have been six years old, and maelor is either a baby at all or hasn’t been born yet - this is even more terrifying)

I also can't help thinking that when it all happens the whole family will be in the same room (helaena, alicent, aegon, aemond, daeron and possibly otto and criston). I would really like to see how the family tries to support each other after the onset of the tragedy.

hi!

hmm yes, i know what you mean. ever since that audition came out, there's fear of them whitewashing b&c. i've seen people say it's fine because "they did so with aemond too" but idk...

in any case even if it would be the b&c scene from the book, i have a hard time believing the writers would imply rhaenyra knows/understands what happened before it happened. as in... rhaenyra will not be involved in this in the first place.

in the book it's daemon who sends rhaenyra a letter from harrenhal informing her that lucerys will be avenged and he says the famous line "a son for a son"

but yeah i get the frustration.... though i've come to terms with this show not being the grey vs grey storyline the book fans were talking about before it aired. my hope is that they don't pile on the greens even more, especially with aegon.

ultimately the narrative chosen for the show is alicent vs rhaenyra, but imo even then it falls flat because of how they want alicent to look in her relationship with rhaenyra.

i have a feeling they might not show anything graphic w b&c and mostly just imply what happens, but idk if they'll go with the brutal version or the kidnapping version. it would be a bit silly for it be a kidnapping event if daemon does say a son for a son before it happens because it's pretty obvious what daemon's words mean.

i think going with the classic book version is best here. and i also think mysaria will be heavily involved since she'll be pissed that alicent ordered the fire at her establishment.

but yeah. unless they age the twins up for season 2, the twins are meant to be four years old at most in episode 10. and i don't think they'll age them up because a) they reportedly said season 2 wil not have time jumps and b) there was a leak/rumor going around a while back that hbo was looking for blonde twins aged 3-4 with shoulder-length hair to cast

as for the aftermath.... i am so curious. i am so curious how helaena will react both before and after, i am curious how she'll react to all family members and how they'll react to her. i am so curious in general about helaena's storyline going forward.

[horizon-verizon]

They built all Daemon's charaacterozation on his love for Viserys. What whil become with him without Vizzy? In s2? Maybe that's why he will fuck Mysaria in show, because he will need a new bond (show Daemon hardly loves his wife or children, it seems)?

Gross.

No I don't think Daemon, in the show, should sleep w/Mysaria for the sake of Viserys' absence.

Show!Mysaria doesn't seem interested (sexually or platonically) at all in Daemon, but she should be in his employ or contact, since Daemon should already be in contact with her by episode 10. At least how I figure how Book!Daemon was so easily able to get Mysaria to send out her assassins in time after Lucerys was murdered...

Maybe the show will try to express how whatever flame they had is reignited by his need to get away from Rhaenyra’s grief, or his own guilt in choking her out some moments before he find about about Lucerys and is the one to tell her about it? Or that he just fucks off and tried to avoid Rhaenyra's pain altogether, like he did when she was birthing Visenya? IDK.

None of this makes any sense for why Mysaria, who the show shows as having been done with Daemon's bullshit in episode 2, would ever willingly mess around with him again. Unless they make her despise forever more Rhaenyra for some sort of slight or envy her, or something sexist like that....or they have Daemon force or coerce her into it?

I get hives just contemplating it. I truly have no hopes for this series.

[bohemian-nights]

TB's treatment of nettles is disgusting.

its ok to say "i acknowledge her importance as a character in the dance, and i know that she wasn't the reason for daemyra falling apart, but as a daemyra shipper i can't say that i'm excited for her and daemon to fall in love." that's fine, of course you'll only want to see daemon with rhaenyra. but i haven't seen anyone saying that.

instead they claim that "she wasn't important. they can cut her character and give her arc to rhaena, they're both black" and it's disgusting and racist.

i've also seen people calling her a home wrecker, or claim that daemon r*ped her - everything to not acknowledge the truth. daemon fell in love with her. he loved her. she was the love of his life.

The treatment of Nettles pisses me the hell off. They won’t even admit that she’s nesscary to the plot because that would mean acknowledging what her arc is actually about which goes directly against the house of lies they’ve built.

If they seriously believed that Daemon was her biological father and not his lover who he’d die for or that she was truly irrelevant they wouldn’t be calling for her to be cut or replaced every five seconds.

A truly irrelevant character wouldn’t be given half a thought to(see how they treat Mysaria vs. Nettles). And if she was actually Daemon’s kid and not the love of his life they’d welcome her with open arms cause using Black characters as props for their racist fave is their favorite pastime.

Imagine the most irrelevant unimportant character living rent-free in your head 24/7. Could not be me.

*Nettles arc is about more than her romantic relationship with Daemon. It's about how even one does not have to come from something to be somebody which is why I love her so much, but it's clear they won't acknowledge her importance because she’s very much apart of Daemon’s arc(vice versa).

[anothersarcasticdolphin]

Girl Dad Daemon Fic Spoilers (so a cut), but I need to get all this in one place:

Alyssa: King’s Landing Prostitute (Lysene), Silverwing. Born in 100. Named by Daemon after his mother. Daemon wanted her raised in the Red Keep with Rhaenyra, but Otto isn’t having Daemon’s bastards raised there, so she was shipped off to Dragonstone. Claimed Silverwing in 112. After her birth and the fallout with a Daemon vs Otto argument, Jaehaerys sends Daemon on a tour of the free cities, which results in:

Jaenara: ____ Belaerys (Volantene), Vermithor. Born in 102. Named by her mother after Jaenara Belaerys. Keeps a reasonable relationship with her mother’s family, largely splitting her time between Dragonstone and Volantis pretty evenly, especially after claiming Vermithor in 112. Is a bit of a hothead and claimed a dragon that young because her sister just did so she wants to as well, damit. 

Visenya: Pentosi Magister’s Daughter, Dreamfyre (yes, I’m stealing Helaena’s dragon). Born in 107, in such a way that Daemon kind of uses her birth to take attention away from Alicent’s Aegon. Named by Rhaenyra at several months old because Daemon was fresh out of names. Shipped off to Dragonstone to join the rest of Daemon’s bastards, though because Rhaenyra always wants to see her (the other two took one sniff of King’s Landing air and demanded to go straight back to Dragonstone) so she’s around King’s Landing enough to basically steal Dreamfyre out from under Helaena’s nose in 120. Of all Daemon’s brats, she succeeds her father as the devil incarnate in the eyes of the Greens. Rhaenyra’s favorite for similar reasons.

Daenys: Mysaria? (haven’t decided for sure yet), but rumors are spread that she’s Rhaenyra’s (she’s not). Born in 112. Clouddancer. Named by Alyssa and Jaenara, because Daemon still sucks as names. The only one to get a cradle egg, which hatches into twin dragons that go everywhere with Daenys - in the castle etc. Rides Clouddancer, but Shadowdancer likes her kind of in the way Viserion and Rhaegel do to Dany. Mostly banished to Dragonstone because Daemon is not supposed to bring his kids around anymore after the grief Visenya has been causing. Kind of a racist against Andals or those with Andal blood, even by the standards of the Targaryens. Fucks around with black magic for fun. Generally a bit creepy. Gets sent off to Volantis/Pentos a few times because she does _not_ get along with Rhaenyra’s eldest three (due to her being a racist and thinking they have andal blood). Rhaenyra is not a fan. 

Opinions on the dance of the dragons:

Alyssa: Yes of course I’m going to help my father and my friend Rhaenyra kill their enemies.

Jaenara: Well normally I would just sit in Volantis, this isn’t my war, but I can’t let Alyssa take all the glory.

Visenya: WHOOOOO! YEAHHH! Let’s go murder some Greens!

Daenys: Yes, let’s go kill the halfbreeds.

[lemonhemlock]

I've seen in twt and Tumblr rumours of changing the original script of Aegon's characterization in the show and making him a rapist on purpose just to make the audience side with Rhaenyra regardless of what she might do in the future. Now idk if it's true or not, but the more I think about it the more it make sense to me. Because Ryan before the show get aired was literally talking about how Aegon ii (alongside Aegon v) is his favourite Aegon of the Targaryens and that's because he is "grey" and he literally talked about how Aegon is not like joffery and joffery is a psychopath while Aegon is not etc... Combined with the suspicious absent of Daeron who doesn't get mentioned by anyone not even his own mother and how the show portrayed Aegon as much worse person than joffery (child arena is on Ramsay-level) all of this make think that these rumours are true. Because the show has make every white conservative male abuser side with the greens while make every Lgbt/poc character side with the black this is very politically charged. Making the Velaryons who are Valeryians (the whitest and most racist race in Asoiaf) black+ ignoring the fact that both of Corlys and Daemon are pedos+showing grooming as something romantic+ making larys not only a kinslayer but also a predator when he wasn't in the book+ changing the personality of a nasty character like Mysaria+making Rhaenyra a gay ally and has a good relationship with laenor when she was homophobic to him and he wasn't present in the lives of her children most of the time in the book. So it's very obvious that they wanted this civil war to be a simple bad guy vs good guy story.

I have reblogged a post about this very topic recently - it's not that it sounds unbelievable to me, because it doesn't, considering how divergent everyone was in their interviews. It's that it's so hard to verify if/how much of this is true? These people aren't going to the press and dissing each other off, airing their dirty laundry, because that would be unprofessional. But I'm still SO CURIOUS. Do you happen to know who is the source of these rumours? We need a deuxmoi of our own lol.

[thesilverlady]

what is your most problematic ships in f&b

mine are : Rhaenyra\Aegon ii ,Maegor\Aenys , Maegor\Rhaena Aegon ii \ Aegon iii (yeah i know lmao but i love evil uncles\nephews, nieces dynamics and this is ship would become more delicious if you add rhaegon too. Daemon\Alicent Aegon\Baela.

problematic from moral standing or from perspective of fans? Because tame ships like daemon/rhaenyra, alicent/viserys count as problematic apparently 💀

in any case, the ones that have the "are you mentally well?" vibe and I enjoy are:

rhaenyra/aegon ii (they have the most could have been)

aegon ii/aemond (sometimes you have to put the worst people together and watch everything burn)

aemond/rhaenyra (ok stay with me, stay. with. me! All the talk about psychosexuality, mirror imagery, and the fine line of misogyny vs repressed desire [in fiction only] has sold it for me. I'm digging it.)

maegor/aerys (that's canon I swear!)

aegon i/rhaenys/visenya (it's not problematic but ppl act like it is. The most throuple Targaryens we've ever seen. They all loved each other!)

mysaria/rhaenyra (something about taking revenge on your former lover's heartbroken wife and using her to hurt him & uplift yourself is doing it for me)

addam/daeron (listen, George shouldn't have written their dragons practically fucking if he didn't want me to ship them)

lucerys/aemond (I'm kinda cooler on this now because that side of the fandom that stans the Velaryon boys has made me a bit disdain with how they treat certain characters but overall I still like this pair but it's been a year since I've last revisited)

viserys ii/aegon III (survivors guilt, codependency, shared trauma. Do we really need more?)

daena/viserys II (vivi taking after his father is something I wholeheartedly embrace)

baela/rhaena (this isn't even problematic by all means but the reaction is always gets... I think it has earned its spot here. Similiar reasons for vivi & aegon + twincest hello?)

daeron/helaena (originally was gonna leave it in the tags but thought "fuck it". They only have 5 years difference, he's allegedly the best behaved of the brothers and helaena gives me the vibe of someone who wouldn't care about marrying someone younger as long as he's kind to her)