#swk did not kill macaque

[dr-chalk]

Yeah I'd be devastated

[cloverjester]

! spoiler for season 4 episode 1 !

Okay gays, I think I cracked ShadowPeach. I tackled it kinda in my other theory but it doesn’t really hold up so I’ll repeat it here.

Wukong did not kill Macaque.

When the Memory Scroll opens and reveals those inky monsters, one of them turns into Macaque and says ,,You abandoned me,, as a mean to torment Wukong, which implies that the worst thing he has ever done to Mac is abandoning him.

In an interview with a former showrunner (Villads Spangsberg), when asked about their relationship, he responded ,,The most logical conclusion one can draw is that their conflict was built entirely on misunderstandings from both sides,,

David Breen, a co-producer, when asked whether Wukong killed Mac, responded with ,,That’s what Macaque thinks,,

Add the fact that Wukong seems completely unfazed by the fact that he killed a person and it becomes pretty apparent that Wukong did in fact not kill Mac. I am not sure who did it, it’s still a mystery, I suppose that we’ll need to wait until another seasons.

You want to know a not so funny thing tho?

From Monkey King’s prespective he got imprisoned against his will with a torture device (circlet) for god knows how many years, and Macaque just shows up acting like a little bitch and causing trouble for no apparent reason

From Macaque’s perspective he got betrayed, blinded and then murdered by one person he loved most, and after his resurrection Wukong acts like nothing ever happened

That’s why they hate each other - they both have been trough hell but don’t realize the other one has been trough it too

That’s why communication is important kids

[katsettee]

Thinking a lot about what Peng said

They’re very normal about each other

[imminent-danger-came]

what do you think was the breaking point in macaque's relationship with wukong, like what filled him with enough vitriol to try and kill mk just to spite him?

because i dont think it was the fight in the mountain, but i also dont know if the show is going to go as far as to have had wukong literally murder him

Definitely whatever happened post-mountain-argument! The situation around this fight specifically:

They already alluded to it in 4x11 ("What happened between you two, for realzies!" "Come on man I need answers!"), which was an interaction between Macaque and MK AFTER the mountain flashback. We haven't seen what finally broke Wukong and Macaque apart.

[fluffypotatey]

rip to macky but i would not have fumbled so hard with the monkey king 💅 he didn’t listen to you warning about the Jade Emperor???? well, you also left him high and dry, my dude, i would never

[d3rpydoods]

Eyo what’s poppin’ , drew some god slayer!Macaque from @squidkid15 and @lotusmonkey’s newest AU of the same name i think? Either way, it’s amazing, Mac tearing heaven a new one for killing his dear friend is such a good concept, the bittersweetness of it all makes it even better, on God 😩😭

[avisisisis]

To add a little more to that post about how peaches represent SWK and Mac's relationship:

In the mountain, Macaque is the one to crush the peach in his hand. He offered it to Sun Wukong, and when he didn't accept it and instead yelled at him, he destroyed it and threw it on the ground

In the end, it was Macaque who left first, not the other way around. Now, their broken relationship isn't completely his fault, but he did play a part on it

SWK screamed at him when he tried to mend their friendship, so instead of trying again, he left. That's what broke their relationship for good. Not Sun Wukong yelling, not Liu'er Mihou not looking for him, but Macaque leaving and (as far as we know) not coming back. La gota que colmó el vaso, we could say. Stuff had already been going on between those two. SWK never seemed to genuinely listen to Macaque and his promises of staying forever were empty (he never would've been able to stay in one place for so long) and Macaque never even bothered to communicate his negative feelings over this, so when he warned him he was ignored

Sun Wukong left again and again and again, looking for more power to "be strong enough to protect them", and eventually he lost sight of why he was doing it. But no matter how many times he left, he came back. Macaque didn't

[itafushin]

LMK!Wukong sealed away his other JTTW adversaries instead of killing them so why should Mac be the exception?

because thats what lmk has established ??? like it would be really disappointing and incredibly frustrating if it turns out mac completely misremembered his own death. i know the whole point is that hes an unreliable narrator and i know he isnt mad about being killed, but it wouldnt hit as hard if it turns out wukong wasnt the one to kill him.

i dont think wukong ever sealed him away anywhere tbh... also this isnt to say i dont like the idea of lbd messing with his memories (because i do think she definitely did) but i just dont want such a huge chunk of mac and wukongs falling out to be so easily altered like that.

[liliavalley]

saga story notes: Sun, Blake, and moments rewritten.

In this au saga, Sun is actually from the same hometown as Blake in Menagerie. He is there for his early childhood, before moving to Vacuo with his family, and finally moving out to Mistral on his own to attend Haven. One of the few memories he still has of Menagerie, is stealing peaches from some guy's tree, and getting spotted by a little girl his age.

Blake has more faunus traits that she still attempts to hide while attending Beacon, specifically a tail, which she wraps around her waist and covers with an ill-fitting uniform, and a large overcoat in her fighting outfit (something similar to ryo's from dm: crybaby)

When she distances herself from the others and officially meets Sun, they spend those first two days getting to know each other. (more than small talk and weird looks) One ice breaker is Blake coming to the realization that Sun is from one of her early childhood memories in Menagerie, where she caught some kid stealing peaches from her family's tree.

Things go similarly to canon with the Roman fight, though Sun shows his more impulsive and straightforward fighting style.

Weiss and Blake actually have a conversation after the fact instead of the weird "I'm gonna say I don't care that you were a white fang member/are a faunus and somehow this is my way of saying sorry for earlier and something something teammates" speech. There's a lot still left to do to bridge the gap, but everyone working to make Blake feel comfortable and safe being herself is a start.

Sun and Blake get along very well, and though WRY understand why she was so closed off with them until now, they do get noticeably jealous at times. (Yang pining arc.)

Things go about the same from there to the end of the festival.

Post-Beacon

Sun no longer follows Blake to Menagerie, instead returning to Haven where his own journey begins. The serpent fight still happens, however Blake, with the help of the crew, is able to fight off the serpent long enough for them to escape from it's territory.

When SWAPS (starting to lean towards WASPS as Sun takes strides in learning to be a leader) arrives in Menagerie a few weeks later, having taken the long way around to avoid a densely-populated grimm areas, Sun and Blake are happy to reunite, and she's surprised to meet his new team, and see that he got a new fighting outfit.

As they catch up, Blake reveals she had been researching into a conspiracy in the town for the past few weeks with the help of her parents.

One sunrise, Blake finds Sun on the balcony, joking how she's supposed to be the brooding one. They talk more about how the fall of Beacon affected them, the mistakes they made, the regrets they have, and the things they'd been through since. Sun opens up to her about what happened with Macaque.

Events go similarly to canon, this time with WASPS showing up back to Haven with Blake after realizing they and other students and staff had been sent away by Lionheart so that the school, and the relic, would be vulnerable to Salem's next attack.

After the fight, Sun reunites with his old team, and while they don't plan to get back together, they get closure. Sun apologizes for abandoning them in the past, and the others recognize that he'd become a leader in his time away.

SSNN stay to help clean up Haven, but promise to meet up with WASPS at the end of their journey in Vacuo.

[acoraxia]

What are your thoughts on shadowpeach?

Fandom wise? I do not care for it.

Canon wise? I believe in men committing crimes while forming the most toxic, unhealthy attachments to one person could lead to such a dysfunctional relationship that it, eventually, turns into a functional one. And also they’re trans and aspec.

Disclaimer: this is all my opinion and people can do whatever they want, i simply have my gripes with some of the fandom stuff. this is just me explaining what i like and dislike about shadowpeach.

I think the most common thing people fall into when it comes to ships—or shipping in general—is how to domesticate these two characters without fully addressing their flaws, personalities, behavior, and their overall choices throughout the original media/show they come from. 

Macaque and SWK both suffer equally through this mischaracterization: Macaque is often painted as this shy or “edgy” character with little to no ties to his actual character in canon and, more often than not, he is perceived as this “dad” type of character when, in fact, he should not be allowed near children for I fear he will bully them nonstop until they sit there in the corner feeling disheartened and miserable about themselves; Sun Wukong is often portrayed as this dumb himbo with little-to-no means of understanding social cues, not understanding emotions in a way that’s very frustrating, and be this yearning, pining idiot who’s still longing for his childhood crush when he did not hesitate to punch this guy in the face multiple times throughout the show. So when they are paired up together it’s this weird mash of people believing Macaque is the better dad with more understanding of human behavior and Wukong is his dumb, doting husband who’s doing his best and cannot stand up for himself when confronted about things.

The amount of times people choose to make Macaque sympathetic by having Sun Wukong’s family side with Macaque when it comes to Wukong’s actions/choices is so vast I could not count them all on one hand. The common trope of having Princess Iron Fan (Sun Wukong’s sister-in-law) become Macaque’s sworn sister is so disheartening to see for someone who read through Journey To The West and thought of how silly the overall family dynamic of the Demon Bull Family and Sun Wukong’s troops was. Removing Iron Fan as Sun Wukong’s literal sister just to have someone backup Macaque and sympathize with him is funny and a bit silly. 

That being said… the canon version of Shadowpeach and its possibilities are, in fact, very delicious.

Canon wise this is what we know about Sun Wukong and Macaque’s history together: 

Sun Wukong and Macaque meet

The brotherhood is formed after Azure meets Sun Wukong, Macaque tags along with Wukong (note: Macaque is not addressed as “brother” by the characters, only Wukong is)

Macaque tries to warn Wukong about how dealing with Heaven might be a bad idea

They share a peach under a tree; Wukong reassures Macaque this plan will work

Wukong carries on with Azure’s plan anyway (yes, azure lion’s plan, not wukong’s)

The brotherhood is defeated and Wukong gets trapped under a mountain

Presumably no one comes to visit Wukong, only Macaque

During his final visit, Wukong is angry that Macaque is free and can’t see the fact that Wukong was trying to do everything for them and his kingdom

Macaque snaps back at Wukong and calls him an obsessive demon before leaving

They have another fallout and fight

Wukong ends up killing Macaque in the aftermath

500~ years later, Macaque and Wukong fight again with Wukong being more apathetic towards their reunion than Macaque is

Macaque obsesses over Wukong continuously (coughs)

Macaque is biased in his retellings of his and Wukong’s relationship (see: all of shadowplay and the scrolls memories)

They fight (again) throughout S3

They somewhat reconcile by the end of S4

We will address the fact Sun Wukong was groomed into going to war by this former celestial warrior instead of having it be because of his own want to protect his family and friends after Heaven refused to pay him the respect he wanted when he first joined their ranks later. Right now we focus on the fact that Sun Wukong is canonically a person people easily fall in love with (platonically) and have a tendency to want to stay close to regardless of what his future actions will be like and Macaque is sequentially obsessed with him throughout the show.

“The hero and the warrior were like the Sun and the Moon. Their light, a protective glow, shining upon the world. Together, there was nothing that could stop the two of them. Either in the Celestial Realms or on Earth. As time went on, the hero attained power beyond comprehension. As the hero's light grew, so too did his shadow. And soon, the warrior was cast in that shadow. In the darkness, the warrior was forgotten by the hero.”

Fun fact: Macaque is never going to be on par with Sun Wukong’s power and he works best as support than he does a duo-attacker along side Wukong. Wukong is on his own power level and Macaque, while being able of holding his own against enemies, could be stomped to death by Xiaoijiao is he crossed the line.

Macaque’s obsession with Sun Wukong comes from the inability to move on from the past; Macaque wanting things to go back as they were is a subtle theme going through the show — he keeps latching on to biased memories and avoiding the actual problems that caused their relationship to fall apart and it isn’t until Season 3’s big confrontation with Long Xiaojiao’s Samadhi Fire ritual. He realizes he abandoned Wukong during a time of need and proceeds to flee, abandoning him again. 

Macaque has issues. More often than not people call out on Sun Wukong for abandoning Xiaotian or the Monkie Kid Crew all while ignoring the fact Sun Wukong does not purposefully leave Qi Xiaotian, he tries his hardest to make it back in time and is visibly scared/horrified when LBD attacks in his absence. Sun Wukong tries his hardest to comfort Xiaotian while Macaque tries to torment him. 

Regardless, Sun Wukong and Macaque’s relationship is unique to most media’s portrayal of friends turned enemies. Because Wukong does not see Macaque as a threat up until he teams up with Lady Bone Demon — he is only scary by association, not by anything he has done up until that point. You can tell with the way Wukong mocks him and calls him something akin to a puppet during their interaction in Season 3 when Macaque trapped him and Nezha in the ice. 

And even then Macaque doesn’t even bother trying to engage with Wukong in a friendly manner because kindness is for losers HA i’m not apologizing for anything, bye Sun Wukong, you big old LOSER [proceeds to possibly live on the streets and stay homeless until wukong allows him to return to ffm under certain house rules]

You’ll notice that Sun Wukong barely has any opinions on Macaque.

This is because Macaque is favored by the narrative more than Sun Wukong is so we have very little context as to how Sun Wukong genuinely feels towards Macaque. 

Sun Wukong sees Macaque as an annoyance, a bother, a threat, a coward, an imposter and then, finally, an ally. 

But all we get from that is Wukong handing Macaque a peach-flavored ice cream pop as a parallel to him sharing a peach with his old friend back when they were young monkeys before he was trapped under a mountain for 500 years as a result of his abuser’s power hold on him that forced him to fight heaven as a way to “make the world a better place”. 

We love to see it.

Macaque and Wukong’s relationship goes from mutual interest and a supportive friendship established years prior to the original building of the brotherhood to a very weird, uncategorized type of dynamic. The only way to characterize Sun Wukong’s “affection” towards Macaque is, possibly, the same way most people would characterize Macaque to be towards Wukong. Y’know the slightly judgmental actions and eye rolls and scoffs of affection most people write about Macaque when Wukong does something stupid? Yeah.

“But Macaque said “this guy” when Wukong was presenting his plan to defeat Azure—“ yeah have you considered Wukong does a lot of masking in the presence of the entire Monkie Kid Crew and Macaque has a tendency to present himself as this cool persona when in fact he’s just a homeless monkey who’s been crashing on his ex’s couch for the past weeks since the ending of Season 3? 

“OK…. but why QPR Shadowpeach?”

Sun Wukong throughout the course of Journey to the West and all its past and future iterations have always had him be uninterested in both men and women. There are multiple instances where he’s capable of courting women and he instead backs away or does not pay it any mind; aside from this he’s heavily implied to only care about familial love and friendships. He does not see his pilgrim brothers as anything more than family and he views Tripitaka as a mentor rather than someone whom he was chained to. And Azure was his idol and he was groomed by him, and everyone else was viewed to him as a troop — or, y’know, a family.

This and the fact that— both Sun Wukong and Macaque are over a thousand years old. Why on earth would they have a normal type of relationship? Giving them a checklist of what passes on as romantic and platonic when to them the line is so blurred it’s barely existent to them is amusing. 

Sun Wukong and Macaque having their own weird relationship where it changes from frustrated best friends to partners to angry middle aged demons to the tired traumatized immortals who sometimes cuddle while still beating each other up is so deliciously interesting and unhealthy to the point where it is healthy. 

Also Celestial bodies are not the same as mortal bodies; canonically Sun Wukong has transformed into women before and people have addressed him with female-leaning pronouns before. my personal headcanon of sun wukong being genderfluid lves on and now we can have sapphic shadowpeach with transfem macaque.

also im still feverish so if this doesnt make sense then too bad damn im sorry

[dr-chalk]

This shot always felt very intentional to me. Angle, facial expression, composition, all that

[semisolidmind]

@fattyskeleton

(so the last bad end wukong post was a sort of swap au, i guess? it spawned from a post before it in which mac takes swk's place on the journey protecting the monk, because swk is a bad guy here. like, one of the big bads. like maybe "the buddha wasn't able to catch him at all" kinda bad)

but I really REALLY like your idea here, so

(let's preface with some backstory. summed up, reader and wukong were sorta married? but it was juuuust a little bit against her will? and he kinda forced her to drink an immortality elixir? and macaque, one of wukongs closest friends and a general in his army, becomes closer and befriends reader. wukong isn't cool with that, attacks macaque over it (cool but traumatizing eye scar), mac is determined to get away from wukong and take reader with him. wukong gets even more power, goes crazy, goes up against heaven, gets trapped under a mountain for it.)

reader has (kinda??) gotten used to immortality (not like she had anyone mortal in this world to be sad over), she and macaque have gotten comfortable living together in their little hideaway on a far-off mountain, everything is going okay...there's been no sign of the monkey king since his rampage through heaven. macaque has assured her; he's safely trapped under a sealed mountain, and there's noone dumb enough to remove the seal.

until tripitaka.

the mountain splits in half, the sound echoing across the land. miles away, tending to her garden....

...reader feels a chill down her spine.

(in this timeline guanyin put the golden fillet on wukong immediately cause there's no way this iteration wouldn't try to kill and eat tripitaka on sight. )

so, sometime later, the pilgrims arrive. macaque is stunned, how did he NOT hear them coming? how did he not know?! now his greatest enemy is free and, and– actively helping the tang monk? wukong seems calmer than he remembers, but it's obvious how much he's straining against the leash the monk has him on. the deadly aura radiating off the monkey king is enough to make macaque nauseous. he not-so-subtley places himself in front of reader when he greets the pilgrims. but...it's too late to hide her. if the small intake of breath he draws is any indication, wukong has already noticed her presence.

reader freezes when their eyes meet. no, no, he was supposed to be trapped, he wasn't ever supposed to get out! she sees his pupils dilate, his smile stretch to expose his fangs.

"Peach! Its so good to see you again. I was worried the elixir hadn't worked, but here you are! Beautiful as ever." he gently laughs. he waves off any questions from the other pilgrims. when they ask who reader is to him...his answer is an amused laugh and a sickeningly fond look in her direction.

macaque and reader play the part of good hosts, but they're both incredibly nervous the entire time the pilgrims are in their home. the atmosphere is tense, and macaque doesn't leave readers' side for a second longer than he has to. dinner is a stiff, polite affair, and wukong never takes his eyes off reader. macaque insists the monk and his disciples take his room while he stays with reader. but that doesn't stop the feeling of being watched, or the murderous aura radiating from the opposite side of the house.

neither of them sleep well that night.

the next morning, the monk has macaque help him gather provisions before they move on, distracting him just long enough for wukong to corner reader. he presses her against the side of her home, nuzzling his face against her cheek...

"I'll be back as soon as this little trip is complete, ok, peach? Just sit tight and wait for your king to return~♡"

macaque and reader pack up and move the next day.

—

[quitealotofsodapop]

For the Wukongverse, what do the SWKs feel about Mac / being married to Mac?

Like jealousy, confusion, or heartbreak?

I think only New Gods had any mentioned of Mac. (NG!SWK pretend to be him)

Will be funny if the other SWKs start flirting with Mac. Mac will be so flustered while LMK! SWK will be so annoyed.

One of my fave interpetations of different Macaques in the new JttW-inspired media is this one by @m4nt1dr4x. I especially love the idea of all these different Wukongs meeting their Macaque for the first time and being like; "Whoa... another weird monkey like me? And they cute!?"

But a bunch of them have yet to meet their Macaque, so they see LMK au Shadowpeach and are befuddled.

*all the SWK's are hanging out at LMK's Wukong's place* LMK!Mac, casually walks into room: "Peach, where's my fabric scissors? I need to fix one of Bai He's stuffed animals." LMK!SWK: "They're in the bathroom. I was using them to make toilet paper origami." LMK!Mac: "This crime will not go unpunished." *kisses Wukong on cheek before leaving* "Have fun with your alternate dimension counterparts." LMK!SWK: "Thanks plum." (〃￣ω￣〃) The Other SWKs: *in silent shock* LMK!SWK: "...what?" Netflix!SWK: "Who was that?!" LMK!SWK: "My husband?" Reborn!SWK: "Since when did we have one of those!?" LMK!SWK: "Since forever! I mean, not forever forever. We've had rough spots. But me and Mihou have known eachother since childhood." Meihouwang!Shihou: *excited gasp!!* "You and your Mihou are married!?" Hero is Back!SWK: "Do we all get our own "Mihou's"? I haven't met another mystic monkey yet." NewGods!SWK: "I have no idea, I killed my Six Eared Macaque." [is lying, he and his Macaque are very old and very married] All the SWK's: *loud arguing over whether or not they are destined to have a goth gf/bf* LMK!Mac, overhearing the ruckus: "Typical Wukong. A single kiss and he loses all rational thought. Even his counterparts." Meihouwang!Mihou: (๑❛////❛)

Soon you have a bunch of Monkey Kings running around their respective universes trying to find their own Macaque, both platonically and to possibly romance.

[imminent-danger-came]

Sun Wukong Knew About MK the Whole Time: A Theory

I am currently hyped up on leftovers and iced coffee, so let's do this!

I've talked about this before, here and here, but I think it's finally time I wrote an official post. You can go and read those posts if you want to (I definitely hit the nail on the head with some of this stuff), but I will be compiling a lot of what I said on those posts here!

So. Let's get the Mr. Elephant out of the room first: The David Breen Tweets. (thread here).

I see this tweet mentioned a lot whenever I bring up SWK knowing about MK, and honestly, this is a far cry from the "it's been confirmed that SWK didn't know" definite answer everyone's been implying.

So let's break it down!

#1: "Monkey King ain't the father"/"Monkey King isn't his dad." Well of course! Being born from a stone means you don't have any parents. I see it like this: Wukong isn't MK's dad, but he's also not NOT MK's dad, it's a secret third thing (creator and creation). Or, perhaps Wukong didn't help create MK at all, but he at the very least was involved in the circumstances that lead to MK being created/being born from the stone. (Aka eldritch abomination MK theory. My Beloved. Okay sorry.)

#2: "Monkey King was ripping his way through memories looking for MK, but kept coming back to the stone. He doesn't know why." So, while Wukong was ripping through memories, he didn't know why the scroll kept spitting him out by the stone. This is not a confirmation that Wukong didn't know about MK and his origins. It also begs the question: how did Wukong know MK was in the scroll to begin with? There's also some speculation to be had about why Wukong was so desperate to find MK to begin with:

MK: "Monkey King did this?" Macaque: "It looks like he's been tearing his way through his past—trying to find his way to.." MK: "Me."

(4x11 A Lifetime of Mistakes)

-

What was he so afraid of MK finding? Or, what was he afraid the scroll would force MK to experience? I think these are questions worth asking.

#3: "Wukong's trying real hard to leave the 'not being open with MK' days behind after s3. Problem is he's got lifetimes of info to catch them up on." Well, this one is a DOOZIE. One: we already know MK doesn't know everything about Wukong and his choices because he doesn't know Wukong killed Macaque (thank you 4x11). Two: "trying real hard" and "successfully doing" are very different things. And three: YOU DON'T JUST DROP INFO LIKE "Hey, did you know you're a Monkey Demon?" ON TOP OF SOMEONE RANDOMLY. Especially not MK. You have to prepare them for it.

Wukong is trying to do better and be better for everyone around him, but that still takes work. That still isn't easy. He's still going to make mistakes, which means he's not going to always go about being open with MK in the best way.

Sun Wukong: “Point is, mistakes happen, but so long as you leave the world in better shape than you found it, then it’s all good. Right?”

(4x01 Familiar Tales)

-

This scene—to me—feels like Wukong is trying prepare MK for his eventual "Hey did you know you're a Monkey Demon?" conversation he wants (and needs) to have down the line. Yes, SWK is trying to be more open with MK, but he's also just not going to be given that chance before the truth comes out.

MK: "Yeah right, if Monkey King really was my dad don't you think he would have said something by now?" Mei: "Yeah...because he's normally SOOOOO forth coming with information." MK: "Well uh, whatever—when we find Monkey King's stone, then we'll just ask him!"

(4x05 Court of the Yellow Robbed Demon)

-

Notice how they never asked Monkey King that question? From a writing standpoint, why bring this up at all if it wasn't to imply that (even if Monkey King isn't MK's dad) he wasn't involved with MK's creation in some way?

ANYWAYS.

NOW THAT THE BREEN TWEET THAT HAS RUINED MY LIFE IS OUT OF THE WAY, let's get into the evidence given to us throughout the entirety of the show. Starting with this:

This isn't a scene that takes place during the "A Hero is Born" special, as I'm sure plenty of people have noticed before now. Of course, this could have just been Monkey King "scouting out a successor", but with everything we know now doesn't that...feel kinda weird?

We were told at the beginning of the show that Monkey King gave MK his powers, but now we know that's not true. MK has had his own powers this whole time—and that's something Wukong, at the very least, knew:

Sun Wukong: "Listen kid: You fought demons, and you didn't die, and you made it here! Not just anyone can lift my staff, but you did." (1x00 A Hero is Born)

-

MK: "This whole time, I thought my powers came from the staff! Sun Wukong: "The staff's just a big 'ol stick bud! It takes someone special to lift it." (3x03 Smartie Kid)

-

There's also 1x09 Macaque, which I have mentioned before:

Macaque: "Ohohoh no, can't you hold the magic staff anymore? Well, you know what that means—there really isn't anything special about you. You're just a kid with a heavy stick."

This scene is then followed by MK lifting the staff, which only happens because Wukong encourages him.

MK: "Ugh, I can't! I'm not strong enough." Sun Wukong: "Kid! We're definitely going to have words later, but it's time for the Hero Stuff!"

(1x09 Macaque)

-

Ultimately, Wukong knows MK can lift the staff again even after Macaque supposedly stole all of MK's powers. He knows MK can beat DBK (more on that later). He does something similar to all this in 3x14, being the one to let MK face the Lady Bone Demon, powered by the Samadhi fire, alone (even after Pigsy tries to stop MK):

Wukong want's to protect MK. That's why he went to face the Lady Bone Demon alone in the first place—but here, he let's MK stop the end of the world all by himself. Why would he let his beloved student face not only LBD, but a reality ending flame alone?

Because he knows how much power MK has. Because he knows MK is capable of doing it.

This all brings me to my main point: If before now we were supposed to believe that Monkey King gave MK his powers, and he so clearly didn't, how would Wukong not know he didn't give MK powers. And because he clearly knew he didn't give MK any powers, why would he not question where this kid's insane level of power came from? He had to have "chosen" MK to be his successor for a reason right?

ESPECIALLY because Wukong never planned on being a mentor in the first place:

Sun Wukong: "I know I can never make it up to you. Honestly, I- I never thought I'd live as long as I have let alone be someone's mentor—turns out I'm not very good at it. I guess what I'm trying to say is...I'm sorry MK. For all of it."

(3x14 Destiny Fulfilled)

-

This was also alluded to in 3x05 Amnesia Rules:

Pigsy: "Of COURSE you don't remember the kid—one day you are going to grow up to be a terrible mentor!" Sun Wukong: "Ha! Zhu Bajie, can you imagine me teaching someone? HA!"

-

So, Wukong clearly didn't ever want to become a mentor, and this directly contradicts what Wukong says to MK in "A Hero is Born":

Sun Wukong: "You're perfect!" MK: "Perfect for what?" Sun Wukong: "To be...my successor!"

Honestly, think about it: has Wukong ever once actually needed a successor? When given the opportunity, he goes off and tries to handle things on his own anyways (Leaving in s2, wanting to go and reforge the Samadhi Fire on his own, going to stop LBD alone). It's the classic "we're being told one thing and shown another" trick.

Sun Wukong: "No no no- in case you forgot I'M retired, you're the one supposed to be taking care of the bad guys." (1x01 Bad Weather)

Even in 2x01 he's lying:

Sun Wukong: "Aw, come on bud! I promised myself that when I found a successor I'd go see some friends, take a tour of my old stomping grounds, just cut loose you know?" (2x01 Sleep bug)

It's proven in the next episode, and by the fact that all of his friends are dead/gone, that literally nothing he said here is true.

And, it's also note worthy to point out, that by this point Wukong had already disappeared for hundreds of years. Why step in again at all? Why put the effort into getting a successor you definitely were never prepared to have?

MK: "*sigh* You think Monkey King ever felt like this? Maybe that's why he stayed up on this mountain, just having a good time with you guys. You know cause- cause he knew he'd be out of the way where he couldn't hurt anyone he cared about." Macaque: "Or, he was doing his usual Wukong thing and being a lazy peach eating idiot. Ignoring all the worlds problems.

(4x09 Roast of the Monkie Kids)

-

So, I don't know about you, but I'm going to trust Macaque's insight on this. I'm not sure Wukong ever planned on coming back. Sealing DBK, he effectively cut off one of his last ties to the world (please go read wlw-wukong's thoughts, they are delightful), and he had already left the world alone for a long time. Why did he feel the need to train a successor now?

The simple answer is this: because he knew he needed to train MK and teach him to control his powers, and DBK's return was the perfect way to do it.

NOW. THE S4 MK VISIONS.

So, the visions MK see's all through out s4 (4x03, 4x04, 4x05, 4x06) are of Wukong ripping through the scroll and going to the stone—David Breen confirmed that himself in the above tweets.

Here's a list of what we see:

(4x03 The Great Tang Man)

-

(4x04 Pig Napped)

-

(4x05 Court of the Yellow Robbed Demon)

-

These are what I would say are the visions of Sun Wukong trying to find MK in the scroll. Yet, they are distinctly different from what Subodhi presses MK to remember ("Tell me of your childhood, your parents." "You do not remember?" "And what else?"):

(4x06 Show Me the Monster)

-

Look at that difference!

Every vision MK has includes the same scenes, except this one. That's why I think it's a memory; that and the way it's framed, with MK closing his eyes in focus. The other visions from 4x03, 4x04, and 4x05 all are unprompted, being forced upon MK. Why make this last "vision" so different from the others? Why show our mystery lady making the stone monkey? That would be because it's a memory—be it MK's, something from the scroll, or a mix of both.

There's also the matter of like, why Wukong going to the stone would trigger any sort of vision in MK to begin with. Overall, it just seems like there something more to those visions.

This would be how I imagine the general timeline playing out:

MK is created (through help of Sun Wukong), a beautiful baby boy pops out of the stone, and Sun Wukong "loses" that beautiful boy (if Wukong knew he was born to begin with) with MK finding his way to Pigsy's.

Then it's later Sun Wukong finds MK again, coming up with a plan to make MK his "successor" (still leaving MK with Pigsy, which I think was the right call lol). As Wukong says in 4x01, "You make ONE mistake, and no one ever let's you live it down! Looks like the ghosts of my past have finally caught up with me." That's what I think this parallel in particular is really trying to show off—in some way, MK is part of his past mistakes, just like Macaque is.

AND SO. I WILL CLOSE OFF THIS THEORY POST WITH EVERYTHING WE LEARNED IN THE SPECIAL.

Sun Wukong: "Heh, nothing gets under his skin more than a monkey. Leave Azure to MK and me."

(4x12 The Plan Man)

-

Sun Wukong: "Kinda embarrassing for the Jade Emperor to have two little cheeky monkeys running circles around him the first day on the job." MK: "Well, one monkey and one unconfirmed, but *laughs* yeah! I'd be embarrassed for sure!"

(4x13 Rip and Tear)

-

Wukong sounds suspiciously confident that MK is a monkey.

Not even MK is sure what he is (which he's probably just in denial, but also "Until I know what I am, what my destiny is?" from 4x08 anyone?), but Sun Wukong is extremely certain about what MK is.

Sun Wukong: "We got this bud. Would have liked to give you some new training with your monkey form, but-" MK: "Oh yeah yeah yeah- uh um- about that— um. I- I was thinking, I've never really needed a scary new monkey form before, so, I just thought maybe I'd use it next time." Sun Wukong: "Next time? Kid, there might not be a next time! This is the time."

MK: "It's be fine! Mei and I have got this awesome new armor and everything! You know, when we look this good? Ain't nothing gonna beat us." Sun Wukong: "Kid. New armor isn't going to cut it! We have to hit Azure with everything we've got! You can't just ignore this whole part of your power because it scares you!"

(4x12 The Plan Man)

-

If the writers were trying to highlight the fact that Wukong didn't know, this scene would have gone very differently. Instead of "You can't just ignore this whole part of your power because it scares you!" I think it would have been more along the lines of "I know this is new for all of us, but you've got to accept this part of your power!".

Even this exchange at the end of the special raises some alarm bells for me:

Pigsy: "Heh, don't bother. I've been telling him that for years but he LITERALLY never listens." Sun Wukong: "Yep! That's how we roll."

(4x14 Better Than We Found It)

-

That's how "we" roll? As in him and MK, as two monkeys? Again, Wukong is surprisingly chill and okay with this new form for someone whose first interaction with it was supposedly this:

MK, writhing on the ground in pain, completely destroying the world around him, and unable to control his powers.

Sun Wukong: "Yeah! Go MK, go! Just try not to totally wreck up my stuff would ya-"

(4x13 Rip and Tear)

-

Overall, it gives me the impression that Wukong already knew what MK was before 4x07. This new form didn't scare him because he always knew that's what MK was. MK, to Wukong, is MK! And MK has always been a Monkey Demon. He has unshakeable faith in his protege, and even while MK is absolutely tearing up the world around flower fruit mountain he can't help but cheer for him.

After all, Wukong knows MK is the only one who could defeat Azure:

MK: "Ne Zha's right—while Azure has the Jade Emperor's power and the scroll, there's NO way we could beat him head on!" Sun Wukong: "I mean, some of us could beat him! *ahem* One of us, specifically-" MK: "Nope! None of us at all."

(4x12 The Plan Man)

-

"But Imp!" I hear you say, "Wukong was talking about himself here!". To which I would reply, that's not true! This scene is right after Wukong has already said he only almost beat the Jade Emperor:

Sun Wukong: "But don't worry—I almost beat the Jade Emperor single handed once! Between both of us, Azure doesn't stand a chance." (4x12 The Plan Man)

-

Between this and Wukong's pre-fight convo with MK ("We have to hit Azure with everything we've got!"), he's clearly banking on MK using the full extent of his powers to win this fight. Wukong isn't banking on his own—if he were, he would never have left MK to go and collect the scroll pieces during their fight with Azure.

Conclusion

Sun Wukong knew MK was a monkey the whole time, lol—and fate has plans for MK. Great plans, or foul? Time will tell.

And Wukong has done his best to ensure that those plans are great.

[fluffypotatey]

I missed the part where Shadow Play took place over a few days and Macky is so stupid for going “you again? You must be my biggest fan” like SIR. He is the ONLY person coming to comfort binge popcorn and cry at an empty theatre while you repeat the same hero and warrior story like how are not tired and like, is MK ok bc this is unhealthy copism inflicting that depressing af story he kept internalizing on himself by coming back here. What was the goal telling that story over to no audience anyways lmao, okay safe enough hobby, but the lack of reaction to MK mentioning the LBD but THEN saying something is coming 👀 “good to see there is some potential” the “you’re just a bit too much like him” for a revived guy who just had a trauma flashback he’s way too dang chill, but oh the genuine FEAR when not mayor shows up, I hear macaques (as in the animal) smile to show fear, matches his personality fine but sometimes that breaks too and oof, and noooo his lantern. That’s like his only belonging, I personally love lanterns culturally, so wahh hope he gets it back it’s like that one fic where he also loved it a bunch and didn’t know where to hide it bc he thought the others wouldn’t like him keeping it.

ok there is some great art made by @llumetesdellums that perfectly encapsulate Shadow Play because yeah, MK is literally just obsessively rewatching this play (mood) where he sees himself as swk's shadow and warrior and unable to keep up, and the play just enables it because it is told in favor of the Warrior, who feels scorned and neglected by the Hero. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND!!! you have the hilarity of MK coming to this show everyday, every hour, eery showing and Macky just....goes on with the show 💀💀💀

like, on one hand, yeah, Macky had set the production times and (in my opinion) is a monkey of the arts™️. like yes, sure, this play was made with ulterior motives, but who is he to say no to more showings 😂 like on a story standpoint, MK's crisis is very emotional and tugs at your heartstrings because we've all (maybe) have been in his position of feeling second best and not good enough. but when you place yourself as a third party or Macky, you just see a guy obsessively coming to a show that clearly affects him negatively and nobody is stopping him

it's so hilarious from that end but also i just love this episode so much. and YEAH macky playing off MK's attendance like that is like, bitch you can just end the charade, you have the power!!! 😂 my guy

and then when it comes to Macky's own emotional feelings, i personally always see him as someone who's "cool" persona is his shield. fake it til you make it! if they think you're unfazed then nobody will ask questions, which Macky actually doesn't want MK to ask question that pertain to the specifics of his relationship with swk.

literally every answer he gives MK boils down to "he hurt me, i'm mad about it and feel incredibly betrayed, so don't repeat history". personally i don't think Macky can talk about the specifics bc it is still raw to him. a memory like a shish kabobed eye is pretty visceral, ya know? talking about it means reliving it, and Macky would rather be annoying vague and negative than do that.

[twinklecupcake]

Not sure if I’m over-analyzing but

I jut realized that while SWK expresses genuine surprise that Azure Lion is there in front of him, openly saying “I [killed you] myself, how are you here?”... he never expresses such a thing with Macaque.

Sure, it did take him a few episodes to go “Hey wait a sec” with Azure, but it literally is never brought up with Macaque... There’s only anger and taunting.

....seriously, what actually happened, and did he actually kill him or not?