#the homophobia in kpop is a whole other discussion.......

[ugh-yoongi]

Ok, a few things:

1. Thank you for saying something about Jimin's collab with Kodak. For DECADES Black women have been asking women of other races to show up for them, especially when they show up for us. Female kpop fans love to pat themselves on the backs for being "enlightened" and are quick to stand up against any anti-Asian racism. But historically when Black women have asked kpop fans for solidarity, or criticise a kpop idol for anti-Black behavior there is the sound of crickets from kpop fans, or what-aboutism, or outright vicious attacks on these women. All of which tells me that these folks should probably stop talking about what fabulous allies they are in the fight against racism because their actions put the lie to their words.

Kodak has very publicly and disgustingly raped and abused Black women AND girls for years. So I'm very glad that somebody in the general K-pop and BTS specific fan bases is saying something. I know that isn't easy sometimes in a fanbase that can rabidly attack internal critique.

2. For the anon who accused you of Islamaphobia... I'm seeing red. Labour Rights organizations all over the WORLD decried and protested that World Cup en masse. Human rights organizations protested that World Cup en masse. Queer rights organizations protested that World Cup en masse. And they had very good reasons to do so.

Let's just focus on the whole queer rights thing as this fanbase loves to consume fics about the BTS members having sex with each other. Being queer is illegal in Qatar with a prison sentence of up to 5 years in jail (and Qatari prisons are no fucking joke) and a heavy fine. The death penalty can be used to punish them vis a vis their legal code. However, while there are no verified uses of the death penalty being used in this manner there, there are verified accounts of torture being applied to queer prisoners in the Qatari prison system just for being queer. There are also verified reports of extrajudicial killings of queer Qatari people. For heaven's sake queer Qatari people were making videos BEGGING people to not support that World Cup.

That's not Islamaphobic, that's demanding human rights abuses stop.

As a bisexual woman, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for saying something about JK going there and being critical of that choice. Lot's of folks want to sexualize my community and proclaim themselves allies, but when real action or taking a stand is needed, they abandon us. So thank you. Again, in a fanbase that can viciously attack internal critique, you said the right thing and don't seem to care about other people's shitty opinions on that.

That means something real. 🌹

thank you for taking the time to write all of this. i'm just going to leave it as-is and hope it reaches others. <3

[sageistrii]

The amount of hate Jimin gets is so strange because it's so unfounded on anything substantial. He's hardly been in any controversy, he doesn't have any scandals - dating or otherwise, he's quite talented (kpop stans can't mind trick me into believing he's not, I've followed hundreds of performers - he's fvcking talented), his music always hits, he's always the kindest to the other members, he's really good looking (unfortunately people do target less handsome performers that don't fit their idiotic standards exhibit a namjoon) and doesn't even seem to have required plastic surgery (something kpop fans seem to hate for some reason which is ironic), he regularly donates to charity and I genuinely cant recall him being problematic. Truly bizarre

I get it and I agree but I've always had a somewhat different opinion on this topic of Jimin receiving hate.

The thing is that while I do think the analysis have all been spot on and I've also posted my own opinions about it that a lot of pjms agreed with. The whole "he can't be ignored. Love him or hate you always have to talk about him" post I made during my sagemariner era that is now deleted along with the account.

But at the same time I've also said and still believe that we try too hard to analyze the hate he gets, we dissect it too much and In the process have made it part of his image.

Yes kpop stans especially male gg stans see Jimin a certain way and their contempt for him stems from misogyny and internalized homophobia or just outright homophobia in the case of straight kpop stans blah blah blah. But at the same time if we come out of our Jimin bubble, you'll realize that kpop stans are just assholes to idols in general. Yes this is a nuanced conversation but generally it literally isn't more than kpop stans hating on idols they don't Stan. Go in the space of other idols and you'll also see them making posts reporting anti tweets just like pjms do.

This isn't exclusive to Jimin, and honestly it's more or less a BTS thing and I hate that we try to make it the former just because we'd rather wallow in self pity on his behalf.

Just like with BTS and most kpop artist, most of these people secretly Stan Jimin or listen to his music as we've seen a thousand times. Kpop stans just love being edgy on Twitter, most times it has nothing to do with Jimin personally and it's also because of the fact that he's the first person they think of when they think of BTS.

Also these drags have been going around on Twitter for so long that most people just parrot them in the heat of the moment regardless of the truth. Even bp as generally liked as they are more than BTS in the kpop community still get hit tweets and tiktoks dragging them.

Like I said multiple times before, I wish pjms would clap back and move on instead of always having to discuss the "why" of it Everytime. You don't know how many times I've seen the stans of other idols talk about the hate their faves receive from kpop stans when I've never seen the idol get hated on, but I just think just because I didn't see it doesn't mean it never happened.

Make a general post asking kpop stans to name idols who get the most hate and everyone's going to name their faves and with proof too.

Kpop stans will never openly praise an idol they don't like, doesn't matter if they do think he's talented. They might token Stan taekook for various reasons but you'll also never see them praise them for their talent and will also claim they're less talented than their ult idols.

They just praise those they Stan and bash those they don't Stan, that's it. They don't care about how good or talented idols are.

[suuho]

imo european kpop fans (or non-asia located kpop fans in general) need to get better at organizing. the reason kpop companies feel that they have the audacity to fuck us over time and time again is because we never move as a united front. it's not just concert pricing and touring dates, it's also cultural appropriation and racism scandals, homophobia, anti-semitism, fatphobia etc etc. western kpop fans rarely actually pull through when they criticize idols/companies on their behavior. boycotts don't last, threats are empty. of course companies don't give a fuck because their bottom line is never in jeopardy

i do, well. partly agree with this. there is an absolute difference in how kpop companies handle any non-american fans and if you think there isn’t, then. the entire argument already falls apart. especially in the past two to three years, there has been a definite shift in the way kpop companies have promoted in the west and that is the very distinct, obvious focus on the north-american market. hybe, for example, had an entire strategy that entirely focused on north-american promo and that was the sole goal for hybe after they established hybe america. (why do i know this? because my best friend worked at the american branch of hybe for over a year)

and it is evident. you saw the first bits and pieces of this shift when superm had their debut on an american tv show, when they sent bts to the billboard awards, and everything that has happened after. nct 127 has had an entire american tour last/this year and absolutely no dates for all other non-asian countries. seventeen has excluded anything that is neither america nor asia on their recent “world” tour. the truth is, that european fans get a few tours by smaller artists and groups, and other than that we only get well known performers in festivals. that wasn’t the case before covid; seventeen’s an ode tour was supposed to have european tour dates (that got cancelled), pentagon toured europe in tiny venues, it goes on and on. just saying.

so to speak of all western kpop fans like that is wrong, imo, because there is definitely a difference in how american stans are treated by these companies. they get WAY more. tour dates, extra album versions, events, all sorts of benefits, you name it.

other than that, kpop stans never had much of a backbone, so i agree with you. but that doesn’t change the fact that these companies treat america very differently compared to europe. (the treatment of non-european and non-american fans/places is a other whole can of worms that i will not get into now). but even so, look at international exols. they are treating exo way better than kexols, are actually a pretty united front, and yet we get nothing. all to say that this is a discussion with a lot of layers; i hear you and i partly agree with you but i think it is not simply down to the fact that they can fuck us over easily. i think there is also something to be said about making the demand known (and it should be known, look at how ateez sold out their european tour. same goes for blackpink. but these all had somewhat better organization, and yet european atinys were completely fucked over compared to ustinys).

[asahicore]

needed to rant so i'll post this here.. i have no idea what to think about the haruto issue ! 😀 putting a read more thing for those who dont care

obviously as a teume AND as a bi person i dont want to believe he's homophobic but it also would not be surprising at all considering how conservative japan and korea are.. like its known that homophobia and many other forms of ignorance/discrimination are prevalent there.

something i hate when there are scandals like this in kpop is the general reaction, whether people are defending the idol or calling them out. theres very rarely actual discussion around it and its basically just fans bending their backs trying to defend their favs (and being homophobic/racist/wtv themselves lol) or antis just happy to be hating on an idol and pretending like their fav is perfect next to them 😭 so here theres people saying his words are getting twisted and that he didnt mean it that way while others are just spreading hate and dont care about trying to understand what happened.. i just hate the way kpop stans speak on twitter lol it genuinely makes me angry and im not someone who gets angry easily but ANYWAYS im annoyed that yg isnt speaking about this bc genuinely i dont understand if he actually meant than two men together is weird like in a real relationship or if he's talking about himself with another member.. bc obviously he's allowed to be uncomfortable about being shipped but if thats what he meant then the wording is really really off 😭

another thing is how the members reacted (the way they start screaming is kinda funny ngl) like trying to shut him up they KNEW this was gonna get them in trouble (also this happened in aug 2022?? i was already a fan back then but hadnt heard of it why the hell is it resurfacing now lmao) .. but then now he's posted a song on his weverse story (i think) called 'hater' and at one of their concerts he's said he'd only listen to pretty words and continue growing or something like that. it makes me wonder if he's doing this bc 1 he knows people are misunderstanding him perhaps on purpose or 2 bc he IS homophobic and doesnt care that its out lmaooo so yeah all in all obviously im not gonna look for a reason to unstan him or trsr as a whole but i also dont wanna be one of those stans who throws their morals out of the window just for a man idek.. but this happens every single time an idol has a controversy lol people care for a month and bring it up every now and then but then everyone forgets about it.. god i just hate kpop sometimes 😭

[sincerely-krp]

Again, don't cancel these idols. They work hard. They are put in the spotlight 24/7. However. Hold them accountable. They're pretty boy, but they're not dense. They have to learn, have to know better. // so. i agree with your statement partially. but also like.. i hate how kpop stans always feel the need to police idols, "hold them accountable", and teach them—it almost veers on the other side of infantilization when it comes to this discussion. they're adults. they can choose to watch/engage in any fictional media they choose to. obviously, cases like cultural appropriation/homophobia/racism/misogyny are different—since those can come from a place of unawareness from living in a country as homogenous/conservative as sk and those things should be taught. and yes, i think they made a mistake in bringing up MiA to fans, and it's a messy situation. but it's also like.. all these idols are being dragged for MAYBE 15 seconds of speech or a sliver of a photograph within hours and hours of live content, thousands of photos from literal years of idol activity. in my perspective, i find MiA gross, i wouldn't ever watch it, but i'm also loathe to judge idols for watching media with darker themes. because it's fiction. there are actual serious offenses out there, and watching a dark anime is not one of them, imo.

what this convo really comes back to is the debate on engaging in "dead dove" themes and the culture of purity esp in the west — and whether engaging in dark media means that you agree with the content (which. is something i don't agree with, clearly). it's a debate that's gone as far back as fandom culture has existed on the internet (if not longer), so i don't expect krpers to unilaterally come up with a conclusion/agreement in a day or two.

realistically, knowing the krp space, this whole situation will die down within a year (if not a month, lbr), and people will go back to rping as soobin, taeyong, woozi, etc. if you feel uncomfortable with a face, i understand with not wanting to write them or with them. but that's a personal choice, and choosing not to engage with them doesn't make you morally more superior than someone who's also thought about the situation and came to their own decision (and vice versa.. choosing to keep writing any of these faces doesn't make you morally superior either). but like. at the end of the day. this is rp. and it's also fiction. smut rp and/or gen rp in particular is also frowned upon by most people outside the rp space, so what gives us the grounds to judge these idols?

・❥・

[kpop-stories-21]

Sunrise | Chapter 1

Group: ATEEZ

Pairing: OT8 x afab gn Reader

Genres + AUs: Fluff, Smut, Angst, Mafia AU, Idol AU

Word Count: 1.6k

Trigger Warnings: Strong language, homophobia, bullying, homophobic slurs, violence, blood, injuries

Tags: @kpop---scenarios @jeonrose @skittlez-area512 @umbralhelwolf @lukai-m @skeletor-ify @biaswreckingfics @bloopbloopkai @trashlord-007 @liliesofdreams @rdiamond2727

A/N: For the first half of the story there will be a lot of switching between English and Korean. So to help differentiate, English will be in regular text and Korean will be in italics. That's all for now, enjoy the chapter!!!

Masterlist

«-Previous | Next-»

|I{•------» - «------•}I|

"You worthless piece of human trash!"

Your mom's shrill voice pierces the air as her fist connects with your cheek. You hit the floor with a grunt and immediately curl into a ball, preparing for the onslaught you know is coming.

"Sinful heathen bitch! I wish you'd never been born!!" The sharp point of a high heel digs into your back, and you feel the exact moment it breaks the skin and blood starts trickling from the wound. You don't wince, it doesn't hurt as much anymore.

Your mom hits and kicks you a few more times, then storms out the front door to leave for work.

You sit up with a sigh, feeling around on your back for the place where her shoe stabbed you. If you can reach it, you'll treat it. If you can't, you have no choice but to leave it. Unfortunately, you can't reach this one.

"Just my luck she does this right before I have to leave for class." You mutter, slowly standing to your feet and limping into your bedroom to finish getting dressed.

You chuckle mirthlessly at the irony of your situation. Your own mother, the woman who brought you into the world and is supposed to love you unconditionally, treating you like the filth on the bottoms of her patent leather shoes. And all because you made the mistake of thinking she would be kind and understanding when you came out as non-binary and bisexual.

You remember that day all too well, how she absolutely lost it when you told her and thus has treated you like shit ever since, sometimes even wrangling your older brother James into bullying you as well. It was horrid back then, they constantly misgendered you and only called you by your dead name. You've gotten used to it by now, though sometimes it still hurts.

And college is barely an escape from this hell. After one of you closest "friends" decided that you being true to yourself was some kind of crime or something, she took it upon herself to tell the entire student body. Since then You've been bullied every day for the last three and a half years. This is your last semester before graduation and you can't wait for it to be over.

You fish through your closet, randomly pulling out a white tee and some ripped black skinny jeans. You lace up your favorite black boots, shove your laptop into your backpack, and head out to your cheap-ass car that's one small hit from falling apart.

|I{•------» - «------•}I|

Upon arriving at the college you park your car and take a deep breath, preparing yourself for the hours of torture ahead.

First class of the day is Chemistry II, one of your favorite classes of all time. One of the reasons you like it so much is that there's an odd number of students, which means that you don't have a lab partner and are pretty much left alone the whole period.

Upon sitting at your usual lab table in the front row, you notice that the others in the room seem more excited than usual, especially the girls. You figure they're all discussing the upcoming parties that ring in the new semester and pay them no mind.

Professor Hall enters the room, notebook and folders tucked neatly under his arm. He smiles at everyone, then lays his things down and begins to speak.

"Good morning class! I hope everyone is well-rested and ready for today's lesson." Groans echo through the room and Professor Hall chuckles. "I'll take that as 'no'."

Walking out in front of his desk, he adds, "However, before we get started I have an announcement to make." A glance toward the classroom door has it slowly swinging open.

"We are pleased to announce that Mazuma University has been selected to participate in an exchange program with a college in South Korea. That being said, I would like to introduce you to the eight young men who have come here all the way from Seoul."

As soon as Professor Hall finishes speaking, the eight aforementioned males step shyly into the room. You frown as You watch them. You can't deny they're extremely attractive, but any mention of South Korea reminds you of your absent father and the Korean half of your heritage, which leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

You sigh, looking down at the table. You slip out a notebook and pen and begin absent-mindedly doodling on a blank page. Your thoughts are interrupted when you hear Professor Hall speak your name. You look up, admittedly a bit surprised at being called on.

"Y/N?"

"Yes, Professor?"

"You're half Korean and have a fairly light course load since this is your last semester, would you be so kind as to help the boys around and explain everything they need to know?"

Fuck. You were afraid of this. Well, looks like there's no getting out of it now.

"Of course, sir. I'd be glad to." You say, putting on a tight smile.

"Thank you Y/N. Now then, I would like to introduce you to our new students: Kim Hongjoong, Park Seonghwa, Jeong Yunho, Kang Yeosang, Choi San, Song Mingi, Jung Wooyoung, and Choi Jongho."

Each young man bows in greeting as his name is called. You find your eyes almost immediately drawn to Seonghwa. There's just something so ethereal and commanding about him that you almost can't seem to tear my eyes away, yet somehow you manage.

Professor Hall smiles at them and gestures to the lab tables. "Please, sit wherever there's an empty spot." The one with the platinum blonde hair, Hongjoong, whispers something to the others and they walk forward, most of them pairing off together. One of them, however, chooses to sit next to you.

You look up and find yourself face to face with Wooyoung, whose light brown hair is slightly tousled. He smiles at you widely, a bright expression you can't help but respond to, offering a thin smile of your own.

"The teacher said you're half Korean." He says, voice low as he speaks to you in excited Korean. "That means you can understand me, right?"

You nod. "Yes, I can understand you." You smile a bit more sincerely, finding Wooyoung's excitement catching despite you aversion to associating with him and his friends. "My older brother and I were actually born in South Korea, Gwangju to be exact."

If Wooyoung was excited before, he's practically vibrating now.

"So was Yunho-hyung! We're gonna be good friends, I can just tell." He blushes a little, calming down slightly as he scratches his neck nervously. "Sorry, I tend to get a little carried away sometimes. Oh, and I don't mean this to come out the wrong way, but how old are you?"

You chuckle, surprised at how easy Wooyoung is to talk to. "I'm 23, 24 in Korean age." You tell him.

"Oh wow, you're the same age as Hongjoong-hyung and Seonghwa-hyung! That means you're a year older than me and I should call you Noona."

You hold back a frown, trying to figure out how best to explain your identity to Wooyoung. It's been so long since you was in Korea, perhaps they aren't as strict about these things as you remember. Besides all that, you barely know this guy and here you are considering spilling everything to him.

You quickly decide to see how things go before telling your life story. If you feel like they aren't gonna treat you the same as everyone else, then maybe you'll tell them. For now, you'll remain somewhat friendly and try to keep your distance until you can figure them out.

You smile at Wooyoung. "Noona it is." You reply. "Now let's focus on the lesson. I'll help you as much as I can." Wooyoung nods and the two of you turn your attention to Professor Hall.

After class is over you wait with Wooyoung for the others so you can show them to their next classes. After that you head to the cafeteria to get some studying done before lunch, since you don't have a class during second period. Thankfully no one else is there and you are able to get a good amount of work done before students start filtering in.

Unfortunately, some of the first people in are Tiffany and her boyfriend, your two main tormentors. Tiffany is the "friend" who told the school about you, and she loves to make your life hell. Her boyfriend Chad is your typical jock, captain of the football team and all that. He's blindingly loyal to Tiffany and believes all the bullshit she spouts.

"Shit." You mutter, seeing them walk toward you. "Here comes the bitch and her little puppy dog."

"Hey freak!" Tiffany's nasal voice pierces your ears like nails. You roll you eyes and say nothing. You've learned from dealing with your mom that words never help in situations like this, they just make things worse.

"Hey fag, she's talking to you!" Chad butts in. You grit your teeth. Oh, how you hate that word!

A hand grips your hair and you feel Tiffany's nails scratch you scalp as she jerks your head around to face her. "Listen you piece of shit, when I speak to you, you answer. Got it?"

You remain silent, glaring daggers into her pale blue eyes. You'll get beaten and that will be the end of it. No help required, not that the other students would help you anyway.

Tiffany's eyes narrow and she brings her other hand up, slapping you hard across the face. Her long nails leave bloody scratch marks on your cheek. She grabs your chin in her hand, squeezing your jaw in an iron grip.

"What's the matter bitch? Cat got your tongue?"

"Hey! Let her go!" A deep voice says from behind Chad.

Tiffany rolls her eyes, looking annoyed as she turns around. "Who the hell-"

Her words cut off as she catches sight of the newcomer. Curious, you look over to see who it is. Your eyes go wide in surprise at the sight of a tall male with medium brown hair.

"Mingi?"

«-Previous | Next-»

[kanmom51]

bts do "gay" fanserivce just like any other kpop group does because it's part of their job and it is totally ok to acknowledge it (genuinely appalled whenever I see someone claim that bts "doesn't need it", but nevermind). that isn't the problem at all. imo the problems are: 1) too many people just can't discern what's fs and what's not. I've been into kpop since 2008. I can recognize fs. yes jikook do fs sometimes. but a lot of what they do is not. staring lovingly at each other in a very consistent way isn't fs. constantly gravitating towards each other isn't fs. knowing every single detail about each other isn't fs. spending a lot of time together off work isn't fs. going on a trip together and making a very romantic-vibed video about it isn't fs. and so on. for some people everything jikook do is fanserivce either because they're aware groups do it and so they automatically think anything that "looks gay" is fs, or because it's just a very easy way to explain away certain behaviors that make them uncomfortable. in both cases, this is maninly rooted in homophobia. 2) fanservice has nothing to do with the idols' sexualities, or the actual relationships between the members of a group. for some reason, a lot of people have difficulty grasping this concept. an idol that does a lot of fs could be straight. they could be gay. they could be a raging homophobe actually. a pairing that does a lot of fs could just be friends (or maybe not even friends) who are confortable with e/o and are having fun. they could be crushing on e/o and use fs to flirt with e/o without exposing themeselves. they could be in a secret romatic relationship. we have no idea. every idol and every pairing will deal with it in their own way. assuming an idol's sexuality or the nature of a pairing's relationship on the base of fs is stupid. yet a lot of people will do it, and the prevailing opinion seems to be "these two do a lot of fanservice so they can't be real/gay lol". and if you disagree you are a "deranged shipper".

basically this is what leads people to scream "jikook is fanserivce" to their every interaction, imo. they do see jikook acting flirty/couply, and they also know the group does fs, so it must be all fs regardless. and if they do so much fs, they can't possibly be real anyway.

it truly is disheartening because it completely disregards the members' personalities and relationships and reduces them to a performance. yes, there IS a performance. yes, part of their interactions IS a performance. but there is so much more behind it and people just refuse to see it. jikook in particular like to let us know a lot of little details about their loving relationships that show how close and special their bond it, yet we still have people claim that jk is "uncomfortable" with jm, or that they hate each other, or that it's one sided, or whatever. mind-boggling. this applies to all the ships btw. they all actual genuine relationships with each other. don't reduce therir bonds to "fanservice".

(I didn't mention the queerbaiting thing because we could discuss endlessly whether fs qualifies as queerbaiting or not. imo, the term isn't accurate in this case. they just do it because they know the fans will like it. it isn't necessarily used to attract lgbt fans, in fact a lot of these fans, including shippers, have some very obvious homophobic tendencies. also sorry for my english! I'm not trying to start an argument btw. peace and love)

Ok, anon, as a whole I agree with you when it comes to how Jikook may be perceived.

I don't fully agree with your "bts do gay fanservice" comment though. I suggest, for that, a previous ask I posted. That anon sums it up in a nutshell:

"3, What western eyes read as queer baiting is generally elaborate y/n scenarios. (These are the things they sometimes do in skits on stage or in official content. Never the stuff they do backstage in their own time.) You’re not supposed to imagine the stars fucking behind closed doors, you are supposed to imagine that one of them is you. Again, these things are created for a local audience where any other read but straight would be uncommon. The intended audience knows the rules of the game, foreign audiences do not."

In actual fact some of what that anon wrote you also mentioned, so we all really agree about this, but the "gay fanservice" is the one thing I had trouble with, and it's explained in that post.

I have written a couple of posts in the past about fanservice. You can find them here & here.

[nightswithkookmin]

BIGHIT vs BTS SHIPS The Difference Between Jikook and Taekook

I think I have explained the commercial value of ships when it comes to content marketing in one of my previous posts. But allow me to use this opportunity to address it in depth.

Bighit did not invent shipping. Shipping predates Kpop and plays a vital role in spiking interest, relevancy and longevity of that interest in a piece of marketed content. It sustains Audience Retention rates and improves engagement rates significantly. It is a powerful marketing tool when used right but I'm not going to get into all that in this post.

Fact is BigHit does benefit from shipping culture because it is one way they keep the audience engaged with BTS content even when they aren't putting out new content for the market to consume. BTS ships serve the same purpose as all the Run, Soop, Bon voyage and myriads of sub content they put out. You may not watch Run every day, but if you are a shipper you will like a ship post at least once a day.

Shipping is organic and costs nothing unlike most other marketing strategies available to the marketer. TV programs such as Harry Potter (Dont lie. I know you shipped Hermoine and Harry. I did too. *tears) Star wars, Friends, Supernatural, Vampire Diaries, Shadow Hunter to name a few have all benefited from shipping culture significantly.

Can BigHit do without ships? Absolutely. They would be a fool to though. Shipping is just one of the many resource options available to a marketer. It bridges the gap in between formal contents and keep interest in a brand going.

I smirk when some people dismiss shipping, look down on shippers or make ignorant and ill informed comments about shipping culture in general. Audience retention and engagement is king in today's economy and BigHit taps into this resource very well.

All BTS ships are thus relevant and valid. All of them. Unfortunately, this is a numbers games. Numbers play a key role in the commercial value of a ship. And it is a fact universally acknowledged that Taekook and Jikook are ships with the most number of fans and as such provides higher engagement rates within a marketing context.

Taekook is the biggest ship not just in BTS but in Kpop. It is followed closely by Jikook. Does that mean all the ships are nothing but shallow interactions engineered to keep us tethered to BTS for as and when they are ready to sell a product to us? NO.

I don't see BigHit actively curating these ships and masterminding them.

What I mean is, I don't think BigHit is asking the members to interact or even forcing them to interact- except in recent moments but that is another topic for another day.

BTS interact with eachother from their own free will. Of course no two interactions are going to be the same as no two relationships are the same. We cannot compare Taegi to Jikook or Taekook to Jikook or even to VMin because the friendship between Jimin and V is not the same as between V and Jin etc.

No one is forcing Jungkook to interact with Jimin. No one is forcing Tae not to interact with JK. It's absurd to think in such a way.

They all interact with eachother and provide that content for BigHit's use. All BigHit does is decide when to show us that content as and if they want to show it to us at all. They are a business and all these ships are just marketing resources and so they will show us a ship's content in a way that advances their business marketing strategy.

However, if two people within a ship barely interact or do not interact at all with eachother then there wouldn't be any content on them for BigHit to promote or use in their marketing campaigns to begin with.

What I'm saying is, if Taekook sells- as in if there are a lot of people interested in seeing their content(which there are) and those two individuals actually have moments together on or off camera, then in their estimation BigHit will market that content to us. If Jikook sells they will sell it to us; as long as none of these ships are damaging to the reputation and business of BigHit.

[CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC BELOW- Proceed with caution.]

A ships value to BigHit, in my opinion, is contingent on its commercial value as discussed above but if that ship causes BigHit to lose money rather than gain, if a ship negatively affects the business or reputation of BigHit then that ship is as good as dead. They will kick that ship off the spotlight real fast.

Taekook and Jikook have both had moments like this where they are temporarily taken off the spotlight or even asked to tone things down. We've all seen it don't argue with me.

Not everything BigHit does is about these ships. BigHit is a brand in of its own. They have several other brands under their brand and they can't afford to ruin their brand image or any of their artists.

They will not hesitate to shut down a ship if it is doing more harm than good. They did it to Taekook when that ship was in it's hay days. As soon as they started recieving a ton of negative press that is when they started getting 'seperated' -on stage anyway. I don't think they were seperated or asked not to interact off camera. Clearly they do. They are friends after all.

BigHit does the same thing to Jikook whenever they start recieving negative attention. But we see them interacting backstage nevertheless and usually this happens at the same event they get 'separated at.'

It's nothing personal, just business.

[Controversial content ahead. Proceed with caution]

At this point, I know you would be asking why Taekook seemed to have dimmed as a ship where BigHit is concerned but Jikook recieve the same negative press and yet they still market Jikook and shine more light on it....

A Taekooker friend whom I had this discussion with pointed out to me that it seems whenever Jikook receives a ton of negative press BigHit claps back with more Jikook content and in an aggressive way yet has it being Taekook we wouldn't get any content outside official content for a whole year.

To be fair, BigHit treats all ships equally in my opinion. Jikook gets penalized for certain moments just as much as Taekook or any ship gets punished. Example, after the New Jersey VLive Jikook were banned(allegedly) from doing a Vlive on their own for a whole year and after the ban was lifted their VLive was monitored the same way Taekook's Vlive was monitored.

Secondly, perhaps they keep pushing Jikook content because that is all they have? Perhaps, they have more Jikook content than Taekook?

Jikook spend so much time around each other and they don't mind their interactions being filmed as content. Not because they are doing fan service but more so because they are lowkey exhibitionists or exhibit exhibitionist tendencies. Lol. More on that later.

When it comes to Taekook; Tae have said once that JK avoids him off camera which I assume by that he meant Jk doesn't interact with him much off camera. Now it could also be that Jk was not on good terms with him during that particular period which is normal because friends fight.

Jk have also said him and Tae's relationship is not for the cameras and I assume by that he meant they are both are not comfortable providing content for Bighit to use as marketing because as I said all these ship interactions are by their own free will. Bighit can't force Taekook to interact and if Taekook hasn't given them permission to air certain moments they just can't.

Or... or....

The reason BigHit pushes back with more Jikook content even after negative press is because Jikook is real. DEADASS.

Hear me out. Calling Taekook out for promoting Homosexuality in S.K will be deemed negative press if Taekook are not gay or in an actual romantic relationship. Calling Jikook out for promoting homosexuality will not be deemed as negative press but an abuse if Jikook are in fact gay and in a gay relationship with eachother.

BigHit is not homophobic. Bang PD is known for his openly support for members of the LGBTQ plus community. If people hate on Jikook because of their moment he will sympathize with them and shove that in your face.

While Taekook negative press will be a nuance, Jikook negative press will be revolution and BigHit will make a statement: a statement that says they stand with LGBTQ plus community PERIOD.

They will do this not for money but for the boys so they feel loved and supported. So Jikook knows they are not in this fight alone especially coming from a highly homophobic society as S.K.

The thing about Jikook is, Jikook is real. That alone gives BigHit a competitive advantage in the Industry. It means Jikook produce more content for BigHit over any other pair and that content is juicy. It's similar to how companies want exclusive access to certain power couples in the industry. If Jikook are real and BigHit have access to them, exclusive access mind you, then that places BigHit above the competition business wise.

Think of Jikook and BigHit as the Kardashians and Entertainment company behind them. Jikook has given BigHit partial access to their private lives extending beyond the access they have over BTS.

If Taekook or any ship give similar access to them we will see more of them. If they give BigHit content we will see more of them. It's as simple as that.

Jikook is a brand and BigHit is their brand manager. This means BigHit gets more content from Jikook and is at liberty to use that content any how they want and milk the shit out of it. In return, BigHit has a duty to protect Jikook and so no. When Jikook gets negative press due to homophobia BigHit is not going to cancel them.

May be chill on them for a while, because that exposure they give Jikook can be traumatizing for Jikook especially if the feedback is negative.

What I'm saying is, where Taekook would be asked to chill and lay low from public scrutiny it will be because BigHit wants to protect their business interest whereas in Jikook's case it would be to protect Jikook themselves. If Taekook are both gay and in a relationship with each other BigHit would do same for them.

I don't think BigHits marketing tactics however affects the status of Jikook, Taekook or any other ship's relationship in any way. Jikook is real whether it is made the center of attention or not. Taekook could be real regardless of whether they are marketed or not. Just because a certain ship is put under the spotlight doesn't mean that ship is 'real' neither does that negate the genuine friendship that exists between members of other ships.

It is weird to me when people associate BigHits business tactics to the validity of their ship. There is no correlation. BigHit is a business, BTS are their artists that make them money- all BTS not just two members from a ship. BTS is one of the most powerful brands in the world right now.

BigHit will explore and exploit all the relationships within the group, platonic or otherwise, if that will help them sell more albums or even Icecream.

Jikook gives BigHit a competitive advantage more so than any other ship in BTS not just because they are the second largest ship in South Korea but because Jikook are shaping out to be a power couple and Icons for the LGBTQ community. There is a reason why companies rush to support Pride month parades. I'll leave it there.

So no, I don't see it as BigHit highlighting the ship of the era as you put it or alternating between Jikook and Taekook as and when. BigHit has a business to run, shipping plays a vital role in its business marketing strategy but not everything is about these ships.

The members have a role to play in creating content for these ships and Bighit won't hesitate to market it if the content is quality entertainment, consensual and plays to their overall marketing scheme.

This means if Jikook ship content are boring they will choose to show a much entertaining ship content over them. Nothing personal.

I just think they treat Jikook differently because as much as they want to pander to our delusional shipping interests, they owe Jikook a duty to protect them from homophobic people. When you hate on any ship in BTS, BigHit assumes you are nuts but when you hate on Jikook BigHit will immediately assume you are both nuts and homophobic.

Promoting Jikook is business but it is also validation and acceptance and support. Bighit has a proclivity for sensitizing us to Jikook and normalizing their relationship.

If Taekook are also in a gay relationship they will be treated the same and I will support them the same. But to me, I believe Jikook are real and therefore Taekook and Jikook are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be real at the same time.

Ship whatever you want but support Jikook and stan all seven.

Signed,

GOLDY

[hollyhomburg]

(1) I find everyone's reaction to your belief in Yoongi's not-straight-sexuality more than a bit telling. Kpop is full of hysterical gender/sexuality policing. Lot's of straight girls/women who don't mind the idea of 2 men sexually as long as their self-insert is inbetween. G-d forbid any depictions of actual male bi/pan/gay identity come about. The men ALWAYS have to be dominant. G-d forbid you write femdom, they clutch their pearls. Gotta split this into 2 asks as I'm running out of room.

(2) Then if you write a bisexual female as actually having sex with another woman, they freak out. And that's if you can find F/F/M in this fandom, I have found 3 whole fics with it. And the writers had loads of comments about how the readers weren't into other women. It's complete and utter crap. So it's not you, it's a whole bunch of jerks who aren't as "open-minded" as they think they are and can't handle their fantasy being messed with. I feel this needs to be said: I'm not straight, I'm bi.

(i know i said i wasn’t answering asks on this but i wanted to give your ask it’s day in the sun!), yeah its honestly like- so hard to be in this community as a queer person sometimes, because for all its faults- the twitter army community actually is pretty open. and at least there they don’t shame people for just talking bout their idols in a queer way. I saw a thread that was nearly identical to the one I posted- and it had easily 10k retweets. some hate comments sure but still. 

recently I've been thinking a lot about writing a story, IDK how many people saw the little snippet I posted with like, transman Jimin, transwoman Tae, non-binary Koo, non-binary reader. and then Hyung line who are just like aggressively supportive in the “if you touch a hair on my babies heads or miss gender them at all i will absolutely shank you” “Yoongi no one says shank anymore” “okay i will absolutely BEAT YOUR ASS FIRST” 

and the story would just deal with like- tae figuring out she’s trans, and then having a kind of camaraderie with the reader because at the beginning of the story she identifies fully as female. and through the story she kinda starts to feel like she can’t come out because she and tae are just- they’re the babygirls of the group- she loves the kinda bond she and tae have when they talk about makeup and fashion and feeling pretty and wanting to feel pretty.

 but the m/c slowly starts to realize that liking makeup and wanting to be pretty has nothing to do with actually identifying as a woman and it kinda builds and builds until Jungkook comes out as non-binary and she kinda like breaks- and no one really knows why except for Jimin. Jimin who knows how hard it is to be one thing but still love things that alienate you from your identity.

 but it ends up being mostly positive! she and Jungkook start to explore non-binaryness together. with some conversation about how its really hard to be considered a ‘real’ non-binary by the community sometimes if you started on the female side of things. like- no one questions jungkook’s non-binariness if he wears sweats one day and skirts the next. but the second the m/c does anything at all feminine they’re “just faking it for attention” and there is a sweet moment between the two of them where jungkook is like. “you’ll still be not a girl if you wear dresses in skirts, we know who you are and we get it- and if you decide you want to lean heavily one way or the other that's fine too- we’ll still love you”  

i just like the idea of Jimin and jin help the reader cope with dysphoria. and jin never minds when you flip between calling him “Hyung” and “oppa” from sentence to sentence. languages can be hard and honestly, he doesn't mind, he just feels soft and protective and so possessive over you four. the youngest of your group, it makes his heart swell with pride when he sees you happy. 

you have little parties where you all decide “for the next 4 hours presentation doesn't matter- I just don't want to wear a fucking binder anymore” and you do facemasks and Hobi does all of your nails because he has the steadiest hands in Bts. Namjoon is always super soft with Jimin making sure he gets up in time in the morning to take his T, being all soft and swabbing the area on his hips, finishing it up with a bandaid when he’s done. 

this page for me has always been about giving comfort to the people who couldn't find it in other places in the fandom. I’ve always been willing to unpack this kind of emotional story, the trauma, the nitty-gritty. and i really think that we need to be more comfortable discussing queerness and gender identity- personhood- without distilling it down to “this is wrong” vs “this is right” 

because once we start classifying things that way- we’re only a shade off from bigotry and I don't like the idea that I create content for people who are in some way homophobic. one thing certain to me- if you saw my posts about Yoongi and me saying “huh- seems like he’s probably not straight” and felt the need to send me hate because of it- you have internalized homophobia in some way shape or form. 

cuz for me honestly- when I see something I don't like on the internet that I don't like- I just have a little icky feeling- and then I move on. maybe if I'm particularly upset about it I’ll make a post about it on this page- away from where anyone can see it most of the time. but to feel so enraged by the simple insinuation that someone isn’t straight- when that insinuation comes from the person's own mouth- that you need to go try and tear down the person who just wanted to talk about it- that's homophobia. plain and simple.  it gives me the vibes of like- if you went to your parent and you were like “sometimes i feel like i might be a little gay” and they go “no you’re not.” like- not even letting you question or explore your identity. 

well anyway- this has been a long rant. don’t know if I’ll ever write that super queer BTS drabble but who knows. 

[vlovers19]

I feel like the fandom as a whole ignore the fact Taehyung had been victim of homophobia with that christmas song. He talked about it twice! And I saw no serious reaction, discussion in the fandom. We easily talk about racism they encounter in the industry but now that its about homophobia within his agency, it's kinda silent :/

Yes, it's really sad. The thing is that people feel safe and relaxed if they just ignore the problem staring them right in the face. No one wants to really confront it because they are scared they might see the real, ugly and uncomfortable truth. So what do they do? They simply ignore it or cover it up

The painful truth is that there are a lot of people who don't even want to indulge the fact that Bts might not all be straight and that's because being gay is considered shameful. It's looked down upon as an abominable act so when someone like Taehyung a member from Bts which is considered the biggest group in the world, someone who is also seen as a role model for young people, a heart throb admired by millions around the world suddenly announces that he wasn't allowed to sing a Christmas duet with his best friend because the lyrics was too romantic for two men to sing. Even showing how upset he was on vlive, it's going to be a problem. That is an act of rebellion and defiance. It looks more like he is outing himself or something.

The first thing people think when they hear this is Taehyung might not be straight. We can all deny it as much as we want but it's true. Who gets upset for not singing a Christmas song with his best friend when such song is considered romantic then complains about it twice unless such a person may have feelings.

The rejection of the Christmas song must have really taken a toll on Taehyung because he mentioned about it again in 2019 which meant he was still not over it and he felt victimized. But why? Why didn't BTS let him sing that song with Jimin? And why didn't people really react?

Because there was a huge possibility that Taehyung might not be straight and for his image, it would be destructive so no one says anything and prefers to keep quiet. No one really wants to probe further because they might face a truth they aren't ready to hear or witness.

People will find talking about racism in the industry a lot easier than talking about homophobia because it won't damage the boys career. Racism has been a problem many nations of the world have faced and will continue to face. BTS a kpop group from a small Asian country has taken over the world with their music almost replacing musicians from the more westernised and highly developed countries who consider themselves more supreme than others. It is a problem that not only involves individual but nations from all over the world. It leaves room for conversation because it's a general topic. It isn't really such a sensitive topic as Homosexuality which some countries have even listed as a mental health problem.

There are things Taehyung has done especially regarding Jimin that seriously questions his sexuality but in other not to damage his personality, such things are swept under the rugs or covered up . People ignore it because they don't want to imagine or even believe it even though the evidence is right in front of their eyes.

Taehyung has always seemed stubborn and rebellious. Even the members acknowledge just how stubborn he really is. He also likes to say his mind not caring how such words may sound like. It's almost like he has no filter. That's why it's not a surprise when he keeps releasing quite suspicious songs that question his nature.

Jimin on the other hand seems more compliant, peace loving and amiable, putting others before his own self and his own happiness. Taehyung has even openly acknowledged the fact that Jimin is too nice for his own good back in their debut days when he was asked to choose a member from the group he can introduce to his sister. Of course he didn't choose Jimin because of that characteristic. Someone like him might be more willing to make a compromise. This could be why Taehyung seems more forceful in their relationship. It also seems like it's due to that stubborn nature of his that he sometimes finds things difficult within the company especially regarding promotions in the group. Well, that is a talk for another day.

Anyway, the thing is that with all the actions vmin have shown, referencing how their bond seems different from the others in the group, it is very likely they aren't straight but no one wants to even imagine it which is why coming out seems totally unthinkable at such a critical point in their lives and careers but as they mentioned in their song friends.

One day when this cheer dies down, stay hey

You are my soulmate

For eternity, keep staying here. Hey

You are my soulmate

They already know that one day everything will change. They won't be as popular as they used to be but they will still be together because they are soulmates. They are more than best friends. Seems to me like they already have their future all planned out.

So ultimately, people won't react much to anything regarding vmin because they seem too real and no one wants that. We all want to live in the fantasy world we have built for Bts and it's okay but one day, painfully it will all end. No one knows how life will turn out just like how no one knew that covid19 was suddenly going to appear from nowhere and press a pause on people's lives. Likewise, people should be ready for anything. It's better to think that Bts might not all be straight rather than being biased over their sexuality so that one day, if news comes out regarding the former, no one would be surprised and start hating on them because I feel these are the steps vmin are taking but they still end up being overlooked. Anyway this is my own opinion regarding Homophobia in K-pop. It's a sad thing and we are all hoping that one day people will be more open to even talk about it. But for now, the only thing people can do is just wait, see and hope.

Thank you for reading.

[lilquill]

Writeblr Drama Time! :)

Imagine being a gigantic writeblr, so big that you unironically write self-aggrandizing posts about how you’re a “writeblr myth” in the third person, and then falling apart at the seams the moment someone questions your intentions when you vague about wanting “nasty” writeblrs to leave the website.

And then imagine blaming someone who politely asks you to clarify your intentions, and responding in an absolutely astounding show of volatile fragility, tagging people and DEMANDING they explain themselves to you for all your followers to send vile nonsense aiming to shut down discussions and anything that dares question your perspective and why you have it.

And, beyond that, imagine painting innocent people trying to have a discussion as villainous attackers based on polite reblogs of their post made in good faith, while in the same breath absolving yourself of the behavior of the people acting on your behalf. And then, of course, going on to deliberately misinterpret a common colloquial meaning of the word “nasty” in order to build a shoddy defense.

Imagine sticking your nose into useless, pointless drama in the first place, getting some digs in at someone explaining the connotations of words in different languages by ganging up on them with a WHITE GIRL named INDIA (by the way, India, if you’re reading this, hello from a real actual Indian person! You can see why it’s important to clarify meanings of things in different contexts, don’t you?), thereby either deliberately misinterpreting someone to paint them as a villain and burn them at the stake or blindly attacking someone you don’t like, neither of which are good looks. And, not only that, but stirring up the drama again months later in a vagueblog implying you want them (and everyone who agreed with them) driven off writeblr!

I’ve seen you do this a few times in the past. Remember that time someone politely criticized your self-congratulatory post about how you included gay characters because you had magic in your story, and how they took issue with how your phrasing seemed to imply that they couldn’t exist in a world without magic? You ganged up on them with your Big Writeblr Friends in an INCREDIBLE display of homophobia and lack of self-awareness. You painted yourself as a victim of a smear campaign based on a polite discussion that questioned you.

This performative self-victimizing, painting anything that doesn’t completely bend to your will and prop up a version of events that paints you in anything other than good light. The intentions of this kind of behavior are never good. You want to shut down conversation and self-reflection with a villain/victim dynamic so that people will rush to your aid. Maybe think harder about yourself and your behavior. Writeblr doesn’t become a safe, positive environment if we demonize people for being critical of things that deserve criticism. In fact, it rots instead, as you let things fester in the dark with catty, two-faced behavior instead of being honest and open, shutting doors and living in the musty dark instead of airing things out and actually learning. People have tried being kind and polite to you, and you blew up at them. Perhaps this strategy will work instead.

And, before I get blocked in yet another fit of the exact phenomenon I’ve described, I’ll get one last thing in. Honey sweetie darling baby @boothewriter (is that enough coddling for you?), your wip about reverse harem kpop greek gods starring a white girl or whatever is honestly super weird and fetishistic and racist. Please rethink, like, literally everything about that wip. Like, I thought that maybe the pictures on there were just the default from the theme page you used, but….no, you picked them! I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I really did, honest. But maybe, like, DON’T write that lmao.

But since we all know you’ll just throw another fit when you see this, have fun martyring yourself as the pure lily-white innocent victim of a situation that you created entirely by your own fault. You want a eulogy that weeps over you as you, commemorates you as some sort of writeblr god with your 3000 followers or whatever as you leave Tumblr? Take this L instead.

Screenshots (with links) below the cut, because I know some nimrods will read this and ignore everything I say.

HILARIOUS third-person post:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/175158809961/boo-is-the-writeblr-community-myth-if-youre-good

Boo’s original post that sparked this whole thing:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/180803228551/tumblr-banning-explicit-content-lots-of-people

Polite response to that post:

Link: http://gingerly-writing.tumblr.com/post/180876218231/boothewriter-tumblr-banning-explicit-content

Boo’s fragile meltdown response:

Also see:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/180801111071

Boo getting herself into that drama that that white girl named India getting mad at a person who literally speaks Russian politely explaining the connotation of a certain word that means “mermaid” stirred up:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/178551594421/cant-believe-people-are-calling-out-writers-for

Boo’s humblebrag about including gay characters (ft. that white chick named India again!):

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/170196861536/theinkstainsblog-boothewriter-ive-been

Boo and her Big Writeblr Pals™ ganging up on a gay person critically examining the homophobic wording of the post above:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/post/170247458436/i-dont-think-you-meant-it-like-this-but-the

Her AMAZING character page:

Link: https://boothewriter.tumblr.com/gomm-chara

[rembrandtae]

Teenage K-pop fans DESTROYED far right governing party in a small country in Central Europe

Sounds like a clickbateing headline, but it's true. The thing happened in Poland where the government is led by a far right conservative party that also has a huge influence on national media.

It's no surprise that the situation of LGBT+ community is not the brightest, some people claim it's one of the worst in the whole Europe, due to anti-lgbt+ and homophobic propaganda in national media. The situation has become even more heated after a president of the capital, Warsaw, decided to sign the LGBT+ Card that basically should change the programme of sexual education in schools of the capital with consideration of WHO propositions. For those who don't know, sexual education in Poland is in ruins, most of the classes do not include discussing other sexual orientations, the differences between sex and gender and the possibility of being of different gender than your biological one. It's very, very heteronormative.

So what happened?

One of national stations decided to make a poll on twitter in which users were to answer a question: "Do you think homosexual couples should have the right to adopt children?"

Oh boy, were they surprised.

53% of users voted "yes" which, unsurprisengly, surprised the station. Thus, they decided there was only one thing they could do. Show the results to the public, you might think? No. They decided to delete the poll, saying "we do respect the opinion of our audience, however, we will not accept the votes of troll accounts that participated in our poll." They showed no evidence that it were troll accounts that voted "yes." And this is when kpop fandom appears.

Turned out, members of polish kpop fandom were a huge part of those who voted that homosexual couples should be able to adopt children. Many pro LGBT+ people and LGBT+ community members turned to thank and congratulate teenage kpop stan accounts. Though, not everyone was so amused with the turn of the events.

One of the headlines of the news said: "Is Korean pop depriving youth with LGBT+ propaganda?"

Now, why am I taking about it? There are few reasons.

I want to shine a light on the situation in my country, because it certainly is not good. Homophobic behaviour, homophobic slurs are very common in the media and among politicians. And it's not only homophobia. Woman rights, abortion, immigrant policy, nationalism, these are all very sensitive and important issues that are being thrown around like nothing, ignored, used as a argument in disgusting discussions that should never take place. This is the reality.

But there is hope. Hope in youth. Of course I'm not going to say that thanks to kpop young people are more tolerant because it's not true. We all know how toxic kpop industry is. We know the situation of LGBT+ community in Korea. However, thanks to the connection with the world that being a fan gives, not only a kpop fan, young people have a chance to see a point of view that is different from the information that surrounds them. And they want a change, too.

Even by staying on twitter and taking a part in a poll you can shake the whole government. Just let your voice be heard.

[sazawen]

Metapost #2: NamJin in Outro : Tear.

Hi, everyone ! Today I’m back for a Namjin analysis ! I will discuss today about the Namjoon’s rap on the Outro : Tear Track of their new album Love Yourself : Tear ! (I hope everyone is streaming everysong of this amazing album !! :D) So let me present you how this post will present himself, because I have a lot to say about it so I HAD to make all of this some what organized !

I-   Analysis of Namjoon’s verses

         = Verse by verse analysis =

II-   Why Outro : Tear is connected to Seokjin ?

         = Seokjin references=

         = Connection with other songs =

Before, I continue there is some disclaimers that I would like to mention :

1-English isn’t my mother language I will do my best to be as clear and correct as possible but I can’t promise that my post will be perfect I may do some mistakes. (Sorry guys T^T)

2-This post DO NOT promote the Namjin ship above another one. I will never say that Namjin is the ultimate ship in BTS and that Namjoon or Jin can not be ship with other members. I am an OT7 before any other ship.

3- This post explain why I feel Outro :Tear (Namjoon’s verses at least) makes me think about Namjin. I could be totally wrong and maybe that Namjoon didn’t want us to interprate his rap like this. But in the end of the day everyone one percieve music differently so, if you don’t agree with my point of view there is no problem. No hate, netherless will be accepted.

4- This post will explain how I percieve Namjoon and Seokjin relationship but like all of us I don’t know them personnally and my judgement can be totally false. If you disagree with me feel free to give me your point of view, I will gladly discuss it with you.

5- It will be a long post.

I-   Analysis of Namjoon’s verses.

        = Verse by verse analysis =

Let’s dive into the verse by verse analysis ! It will be quite long, so I hope that I won’t lose you on this part and that every thing will be understandable !

What you need to know before reading the fellow metapost is how I percieve the Namjin relation ship. To make it short, we consider here that Namjoon and Seokjin know the love that they have for each other, but they are to afraid to begin a relation ship because it could cause harm to Bangtan. As a the eldest and the leader they will never put themself before BTS.

(This is how I percieve them before the Love Yourself Era because I truly think that things have changed but I will talk about it in another metapost ahahah!).

Now let’s go!

Goodbyes are, for me, a tear

Namjoon, state from the begining that saying goodbyes are one of the rare thing that makes him tear up. « Goodbyes are a tear ». This literally means that goodbyes are equal to sadness. We will here consider that the goodbyes wich he talks about is a reference to the love that he has for Jin but that he has to let go.

Namjoon can not be with Jin, no matter all the loves he has for him, because of the music industry in wich he is, because of the homophobia that surrounds him and because he his too intelligent to know that claiming to be in a relation ship with one your band member will likely cause harm for BTS.

Without even knowing, it blooms around my eyes

The words that I could not bring myself to say flow down

Namjoon paint a scene to make us understand that he had a conversation with Seokjin about the fact that they couldn’t be together. Because by being in the Kpop industry, in a country were homophobia is strong and for the sake of their career, for the sake of the group and for their own images they can not be together. Namjoon and Seokjin had a conversation on the subject keep that in mind.

« Whitout even knowing it, it blooms around my eyes » = Whitout realising that he his crying, tears comes to his eyes.

« The words that I could not bring myself to say flow down » = The arguments that he gaves to explain to Seokjin why they can’t be together, escape his mouth because they are logic arguments. But even if it’s logical he couldn’t bring himself to believe in them. In his heart he doesn’t really believe that they should stop loving each other.

Namjoon as the leader says to Jin « we can not be together » but Namjoon as a person says « I want to be with you ».

And lingering regret crawls over my face

Namjoon is hurt by what he is force to say because in the end of the day he truly loves Jin. He regrets his words, he doesn’t want to believe that his and Jin relation ship are in a dead end. Netherless, he still say this words, he knows that he has to state the fact that they can’t be together but in the end of the day his sadness is showing on his face (« regret crawls over my face ») but he can’t do anything about it.

Namjoon often question himself : « Where my role as the leader of BTS begins and where does it ends ? » - Namjoon in Burn the stage.

To me, you were once my dear

But now you’re merely a bitter beer

Namjoon explain that Seokjin was the one he was calling « Dear » but since he has do hide his true fellings all this love feels « bitter ». Futhermore the beer is an alchoolic brevage, it can give you at first a sensation of happiness (like in a hiden relationship) but then if you drink to much of it, it will just give you a hangover/ a bitter sadness (just like when Namjin realise that even if they love each other they could never be together).

My heart that’s stained with belated self-loathing

Everyone knows that Namjoon is the kind of personn that has a lot of self-hate and self-doubt. This sentence state what everybody knows so no need for me to dive to much into this verse.

Becomes empty even with the passing breeze

With the fact that Namjoon can’t have Seokjin like he wants too, his heart earlier full of « self-loathing » is now empty. Before loving Jin he was full of self-hate, then he learned to love Seokjin and so his heart was full of love. Nonetheless when he understood that he couldn’t love him the way he wanted to, his heart drained from this heartwhelming love. The only thing left is the emptiness. Even the cold breeze can not make his heart even colder that he already is.

Goodbyes that ended up being only lies

Once again Namjoon make a reference to the « goodbyes ». If we still stick to the theory where the « goodbye » is the love that he has for Seokjin but that he has to let it go, Namjoon confesses here that the conversation that he had with Seokjin was only a big fool lie. A goodbye that wasn’t really one because both of them still love each other. Their goodbye was only a fake reality arranged to please the industry in wich they are involving. They are fake to the ones they truly are, they aren’t true to themselfs and they know it.

(Doesn’t this remind you for the lyrics of Fake Love and Singularity ? (both written by Namjoon)).

At the end of my play, my price did not come

Here by « play » Namjoon refers to the act that he had to come up with (aka the conversation « break-up » that he had with Seokjin). The famous « goodbye » that Namjoon is talking about is constantly refered as a « lie » but also as a « play » an act that they put on to please the public.

By « my price did not come » Namjoon is here saying that his happiness never came. His price (Seokjin and all the positive things that he brings with him) never came to Namjoon. In the end, they acted, they played roles, they tell lies to protect themself and Bangtan, but also to please everyone around them but they never recieve any price (=happiness) in return of what they sacrifice.

They told their goodbye to each other hoping to make things for the better but in the end of the day, nothing gets better. They are not more happier, in fact they are sadder.

If someone said they would turn back the time for me

This is probably the most important part of the Joon’s verses. The one that had, really, made me think that this whole outro : tear was about the Namjin ship. In the theory of the Bangtan Universe who is known to change things by turning back in time ? Who sacrifice himself to change the « bad events » and make them good again ? Who makes a pact with the devil to be able to comeback in time ? Who meets Namjoon at the gas station ?

Yep.

Kim Seokjin.

Would I have been able to be a bit more honest?

Namjoon asks himself if things would have gone differently if he knew how unhappy he would become by playing this act. If Jin was really able to turn back in time, would Namjoon listen to his own feelings ? Would he be more honest with himself ? Would he lets his love for Jin lives as he was wishing for ? Or would he still lie to himself and put a mask on his face to become someone else ?

The bare face that only I know

Here the bare face can have multiple signification. It can be the bare face of Seokjin or the bare face of Namjoon. It could be the one without makeup or the one without all the lies.

In my opinion, Namjoon here refer to his own self. To his own feelings that he is the only one to know because even if he lies to the whole world he can not lie to himself. That’s why his « bare face » is only knows by him.

The ugly and pathetic old friends within me

Here again he is talking about his self doubt. The friends that aren’t really his friends and that destroy him little by little as he let them do it. The emptiness his heart is full with after the depart of Seokjin begins to be filled with his old demons.

Would you still be able to love me again like before

With that smile with which you used look at me

Isn’t this self explanatory ? He asks Jin if they will still be able to love each other again, the same way as before, even after everything that was said. Namjoon knows that the conversation he had with Seokjin made both of them really sad. This conversation where they came to the agreement that they couldn’t begin a relationship with each other, was not a happy conversation, at all.

Stop saying things like forever, forever

From this point you have to imagine that all this verse where actual words that they told each other in this famous conversation. They are no more metaphorical verses, they were words actually said to each other. Namjoon was probably angry at this moment. So let’s try to think like him at this particulary moment.

Namjoon began to slowly get worked up over this whole situation. The overall positivity of Seokjin makes him even more edgy. Seokjin tries to confort him by saying that it doesn’t matter if they can’t be in a relation ship together, because no matter what they will still love each other forever. Seokjin is a positive person but Namjoon can’t see the world as Seokjin sees it.

Namjoon doesn’t believe that they will be able to love each other forever if they accept the fact that they have to hide their relation ship. Because by hiding their true love they will eventually destroy each others.

=>Seokjin thinks that it’s better for everyone if they don’t get in a relation ship and hide it. Namjoon says this words but don’t actually believe in them. He knows that lies aren’t not make to be hide forever and that they only brings pain.

I can’t help myself but to think that maybe this sentence « stop saying things like forever, forever »   is actually a sentence that Namjoon told to Seokjin. I truly believe that if Jin and Joon had this conversation then it’s 99% sure that this sentence was brought up.

After all, the end originally exists

Here the logic side of Namjoon is talking again. There is an end to everything.

So how can Seokjin say things like « our love will last forever ? ». How can Seokjin believe that their love for each other will survive everything ? Things doesn’t work like that.

This is the way of thinking of Namjoon.

If there’s a start, I don’t wanna listen to that

Once again this verse can be understood in differents ways. The « start » could refer to :

x The start of a relation ship between RM and Jin : If they start a relationship with each other the Kpop industry will destroy them and they both know it.

x The start of the end of the love between them two : If they start a lie where they ignore their own feelings, their love for each other will slowly began to grow in frustation and could with time disapear.

In both case the answer is scary, that’s why Namjoon says « I don’t want to listen to that » he doesn’t want to have any answer, because no matter what they choose to be, their answers will bring them only pain.

Words that are too correct or too much consolation... I don’t wanna listen to that

(We are still reading the conversation that Seokjin and Namjoon had between them).

Jin is trying to console Namjoon and to make him understand that everything will be alright. He gives good argument, he consoles RM with all his will but Namjoon isn’t dumb.  He probably percieve the world in a much correct way than Seokjin, probably because he is way less optimistic than Jin on the subect. He is more rational in a certain way.

Even if Seokjin gives him good arguments (« words that are too correct ») or console him (« too much consolation”) he doesn’t want to listen to that. He doesn’t want to listen to any of those false hope, he doesn’t want to fool himself as thinking that everything will be alright when he knows that they will both suffer from this situation.

I was just so scared

We quit the section where RM retranscribes his conversation with Seokjin. We turn back to his own trought and dives back into his mind.

I don’t think there is any need for me to explain this verse.

Because it seemed like perhaps I had never loved you at all

So here is the heartbreaking part of the whole RM raps. If this was a fanfiction I would have had add #Angst until the end #deal with it.

Here Namjoon say that if they began to believe in their lies, if they continue to play and act like they are expected to do, they will slowly began to forget what they feel for each other. If they continue to act like they don’t love each other, it will seems to everyones eyes that Namjoon never loved Jin at all when in fact he was in love with him since the begining.

He was scared that perhaps, it will seems that he had never loved Seokjin at all, when he had done so much for him.

Although it was late, that you were true,

That only you loved me more

I have to say that this last verse is the hardest one to understand for me… The translation when it concern this verse are quite different from sites to sites so I will try my best to express how I understand it.

The first « You » is here refering to the love that Namjoon has for Seokjin. The Love that they had for each other even if it did come « late » (Namjoon say that he didn’t fall right in love with Seokjin since their debut but that he had slowly began to grow in love for him). He his saying that his loves for him is true.

=>Here he goes against all the lies that he previously talk about, by saying that the truth is that the love he has for Seokjin is true.

[Chorus: RM]

You’re my tear

You’re my you’re my tear

You’re my tear

You’re my you’re my tear

You’re my tear

You’re my you’re my tear

What more can I say?

You’re my tear

RM repeating endlessly that Seokjin reprensent his tear, his sadness. (And don’t we have the proof of it just by the gif I have put higher?)

vII-   Why Outro : Tear is connected to Seokjin ?

         = Seokjin references=

Sooo now you could ask me : but how does this song is connected to Seokjin ? Why do you think it’s a Namjin song ? Aren’t you being a little bit delulu on this ?

I would only answer you, than in the end of the day, nobody really knows the real meaning of the songs exept for Namjoon himself. In my opinion this song, and like this whole album, could be : love between two people or love to yourself. That’s also exactly the words of Namjoon « It could be love between a person and a person or love between me and myself ». If you look at most of the songs in the album you will probably see that in fact each son gis a complex mix of both statement. It’s a reflexion between the love you give to another person and the love you give to yourself.

If we accept the fact, that Outro : Tear is at the same time a love song AND a love of self-esteem we can now, ask ourself of who Namjoon is talking in his song ? It could apply to any other BTS member so, why did I think of Seokjin when I heard this song and not of any other member ?

There is some hints that made thinks that way, so let me present them to you :

    x The Lyrics

« If someone said they would turn back the time for me (…) » As previously stated this is a direct correlation to the character of Jin in the BTS Universe. Seokjin is the one turning back in time. It’s the most direct hint that Namjoon gave us.

« Stop saying things like forever, forever (…) » This is also a reference to a previous song and to lyrics that Jin has sing in DNA. Yes, it’s the song and MV where Jin use his power to turn back in time to save his friends. His exact words in the song are : « Don’t regret it baby, Because we're forever, Forever (…) »

    x Interviews

For the song « Outro : Her » Namjoon had a very interesting answer that I will copy/paste just here :

« After talking with you [about Outro : Her], it feels like it recaps the whole album and it is really introspective. » - Journalist

I think that was the fastest work I did for this album. I wrote the verse in 20 minutes; it just came, very truthfully, from the bottom of my heart. I thought it was the right outro for this album [Love Yourself : Her] because it is really a range of emotions -- I'm saying I met this person that I really love, this person is the love of my life right now, I'm saying that I was confused and I was looking for love and this world is complex. But I think it's you so, "I call you 'her,' 'cause you're my tear." "I think you're the start and the end of me." That's what I'm saying: You're my wonder, but you're also my answers. You're my "her," but you're still the "tear."  » – Kim Namjoon.

Okay so guys, the answer to this question is a direct correlation to Outro : Tear and to Jin ? Please tell me that I’m not the only one to see it ! xD

« I met this person that I really love, this person is the love of my life right now » : Namjoon could litteraly be talking about anyone here. But it’s such a powerful answer that I had to put your attention on it.

« I call you 'her,' 'cause you're my tear. » : This are the lyrics of Outro : Her and again, Joon could be talking about anyone here. But at least we can see the direct correlation to Outro : Tear. And also by saying « I call you her » doesn’t mean that he is talking to a girl, he just use « her » to designated the person he loves.

« I think you're the start and the end of me. » : Another direct correlation to the Outro : Tear’s lyrics (« After all, the end originally exists, If there’s a start, I don’t wanna listen to that »).

« You're also my answers » : This is a direct correlation to Seokjin and if you don’t believe me look at this picture below. Answer is link to Seokjin just as much as Jungkook is link to Euphoria, Jimin to Serendipity and V to Singularity.

         = Connection with other songs =

Love Maze :

There is so much Namjin content in the song ? So I won’t be able to analyse them all, since this post is already mega long but I will take the most relatives one, and the one connecting with Outro : Tear.

« Let them be them, Let us be us, Love is a maze damn, But you is amaze yeah (…) » - RM

Maybe I am the onlyone but this makes me think a lot of the LGBTQ+ community… As a bisexual person, when I was in doubt of my sexuality and in family full of homphobia I had this conversation with a girl and she told me « Let them be what they want to be, and be what you want to be, love is complex but not it the way they think ». That why I indentify a lot this sentence with LGBT. Again this is a complete personnal opinion.

« Take my hand don’t let go, Lie in this maze, My never lose me, In the love maze » -Jin

I don’t really now what to say or explain for this verse ? It doesn’t really need explanation I think ? Lie makes again a reference to Outro : Tear where Namjoon and Jin have to put a mask and lie about their true feelings. Namjoon in Outro : Tear is afraid of losing Jin, he is afraid of not loving him anymore and here Jin asks him to not lose him in the love maze… Everything is connected ? XD

The truth Untold :

« And I know, All of your warmth is real, I want to hold, Your hand picking the blue flower (…) » -Jin

Jin here say to Namjoon that he knows that his warmth (aka his love) is real, that it is true.

=>Direct reference to the Namjoon verse in Outro : TEAR where RM state that he is afraid that his love will be percieve as indifference : « Because it seemed like perhaps I had never loved you at all. »

Then Jin says that he wants to hold Namjoon’s hand that is picking the blue flower. Here the blue flower is the Smeraldo flower wich is blue. This flower was often associated with Jin through the MVs and her symbolism represent an « Untold truth ». Jin wants to hold the hand of Namjoon when he is holding this flower in his other hand. Meaning that Jin is willing to be in a relation ship with Namjoon even if it’s a « Untold truth » even if nobody knows.

« Bloomed in a garden of loneliness, A flower that resembles you, I wanted to give it to you, After I take off this foolish mask (…) » - Jin

Here Jin is in a different time laps than before. Where in his previous line he was with Namjoon in this garden, holding his hands and watching this blue flower he is now all alone. In this time laps, Namjoon and Seokjin have choosen not to be in a relation ship with each other. To not take any risk and to act like they didn’t love each other head over heels.

« Garden of loneliness » refer to the fact that they are not together. They do not hold hands, they have choosen to be alone rather thant together.  

« Bloomed (…) a flower that ressembles you » refer to the Smeraldo flower. The Untold truth. Jin wants to give it to Namjoon because their love is the truth that can never be told.

« After I take off this foolish mask » But before give the flower that represent his love to Namjoon he has to stop playing, stop acting. He has to be true to himself and stop with the false lie. He has to admit that he loves Namjoons.

=>Direct reference to the Namjoon verse in Outro : TEAR where RM state « Goodbyes that ended up being only lies. »

« Maybe back then, A little, Just this much, If I had the courage to stand before you, Would everything be different now ? » -Jin

Jin ask to himself or to Namjoon if things would have been different if he had taken the courage to not put this mask. To be proud of his relationship with RM rather than hide it. Would things had been different if had stayed by Namjoon sides rather than put a wall between them ? Would things be different if they were in a true relation ship rather than a lie ?

=>Direct reference to the Namjoon verse in Outro : TEAR where RM state : « If someone said they would turn back the time for me, Would I have been able to be a bit more honest? »

[dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram]

So I have a lot of somewhat diverging, incoherent thoughts about things you and your anons've said said, and I'll try to whip them into shape. 1) I wonder if there is a some gap between rational acknowledge and subconscious - bias (or if we're being impolite, homophobia) when it comes to these things. Of course, that can be rationalized away to an extent, but what I'm mainly talking about is the subconscious bias that Louis "reads" as gay to a majority of people and Harry does not. 1/

To use external examples, one of my favs from kpop is Zhou Mi from Super Junior M, and it’s pretty much an open secret in his fan base that he’s gay. He got a lot of flack when he and another member late-joined the group which can be attributed to overzealous fans and xenophobia, but Zhou Mi, unlike the other new group member, reads as less straight even in a non-Western context and still to this day (9+ years) gets more hate/is less popular. 2/

OTOH we have someone like Matt Bomer who is publically out, but still has a lot of straight female fans who are outright thirsty for him. They campaigned for him to be Christian Grey, and recently I saw someone describe him as “Can look, can’t touch”. To me, Bomer - and Harry (and Ziam) - doesn’t necessarily read as “straight” but more as “not-NOT straight” (the new Hollywood soft action hero) whereas Louis doesn’t get that benefit. 3/

This has very little to do with their actual sexuality, but again just subconscious bias. Unless if we’re able to acknowledge and confront our bias, oftentimes that can turn into discomfort and hate/anger, which might explain some of the over-the-top reactions we’ve seen in the past against Louis (and Zayn too - his otherness, in more obvious ways). 2) In terms of the straight female fans/queer female fans/desiring - desirability/triangulation of desire conversation– 4/ 

I just want to make a couple of observations (1) Queer female fans who make up a large part of L’s fanbase also include women / NB individuals who ARE attracted to men, as well as women / NB individuals who aren’t attracted to ANYONE. It felt worth mentioning to be factual and objective that actual ability to desire is not always the issue. Of the ones I follow who identify as bi/pan/other queer, a majority seem to express similar aesthetic reverence towards H and L instead of sexual. 5/

(2) I’ve seen at least one lesbian-identifying blogger recently who recently got a lesbian-identifying anon who said they would be happy to do [explicit sexual things] to Louis despite the fact she was a WLW and Louis is a MLM and the blogger agreed. So there might be something else going on there– But in terms of general fan response, similarly, over many fan polls, Zhou Mi’s fans often cited that they’d rather be his friend than date him. So it might have to do with how Louis/ZM are “read” 6/

3) In terms of your “There’s nothing wrong with a woman fantasising about Harry fucking her.” comment – I might be misinterpretting or overreading your intention with that statement, but it makes me uncomfortable for a few reasons. I respect why you’ve come to feeling this way and for other bloggers “shaming” women, but I inherently disagree because there’s other factors at play. 7/ 

 I think we can readily agree that men vocalizing their violently objectifying and sexualizing comments towards women, especially women they don’t know, is problematic (e.g. Adam going “I’d fuck [Celebrity A]” while joking with his friends, Brad saying, “Her face don’t do it for me, but I’d take her bare on her hands and knees.”) I know that are ways in which the relationship is inversed with Harry because he is white, male, rich, privileged, in an industry where that is the peak of power 8/ 

That being said, you yourself pointed out that One Direction, and many boy bands, are treated the same way that females in the industry are treated – objectified, devalued for the actual talents they are selling while being told their most valuable feature is their desirability. ESPECIALLY for Harry, who has been given this role despite his vehement objections. For many larries, who are queer women, the violent objection against other [straight] women sexualizing Harry might be commiseration 9/

–as they themselves are often subjected to sexualization and unwanted advances despite their own sexuality or feelings, which is another level on top of just harassment. I want to point out that that commiseration is *empathy* with someone they perceive as a victim of systemic homophobia (also something else they experience) and not necessarily internalized misogyny against women and what they feel as a requirement for reciprocity in order to express desire for another party. 10/

I agree you can’t help who you’re attracted to, and if the fantasy is between you and yourself, then no harm done. However, in my experience on Tumblr, many straight fans of Harry do take it the next level equivalent with the Adam/Brad example I created above, in a way that treats Harry like an object for their fantasies rather than a person with autonomy, and a person who’s expressed discomfort in the past for being made into this object. 11/12

I understand if you disagree with me, but I wanted to offer another perspective that’s more nuanced than “women hate that women have desire because of internalized misogyny which is why they’re angry when women express desire”. Anyway if you read this… uh thanks!

**************

Hi Discluded - thanks so much for your asks.  I think they’re really interesting.  I think your idea of people being seen as not-NOT-straight is a really useful way of looking at some of the different ways celebrities are read.  I think your comments will be really interesting to people who have been part of this discussion.  I’m only going to respond tot he last bit, about Harry and het fans.

I’m not sure I agree that Harry has vehemently objected to being the object of desire at this point in his career.  He definitely objected to being seen as someone with a huge desire for women, but that’s not quite the same thing.  While he’s put some boundaries up (including literally with his wardrobe), his album gave heterosexual fans everything they needed in order to feel desired by him.  I’m not saying I know how Harry feels about all this, but I am saying I’m very wary of other fans using a claim that they know Harry’s feelings as a way of bolstering their own reactions.

To your more substantive point - you end with motivations, why people might be objecting to fans who desire Harry. It’s not something I had touched on.  If I was going to give a reason for why I wouldn’t talk about internalised misogyny.  I would probably start with fandom dynamics - in this case Larries creating a ‘bad’ fan’ to differentiate themselvesselves from.  I agree that a feeling of empathy and experiencing their own boundaries is probably a factor for queer women (although I’m not sure I think that queer women are more likely than straight women to express objection to women desiring Harry).

I think that people can have very good reasons for why they respond the way they do and still end up reinforcing existing power structures in the way they express that response (a distinction that tumblr is quite bad at acknowledging).  It’s possible that queer women are responding to particular aspects of how particular women express their desire to Harry, but the easiest language to hand is language that shames women for having sexual desires. 

For women who are objecting to particular articulations of other women’s desire for Harry then the way to make it clear is to be specific. To name expressions and actions that are crossing the line, rather than focusing on women’s desire.

And while I don’t think it negates your main point since I’ve been thinking about the gendered nature of desire - I also wonder about the example you used.  The whole point of hetreosexuality (as like a social instituion) is that it’s not easily reversible.  The language around sex gives very little option but to portray men as active and easily ignores women’s consent.  I’m not sure that ‘Fuck me in that hat Harry’ in the tags is very similar to your example with Adam and Brad.  I’m not sure I think heterosexuality works that way.

Thanks for your thoughts - and I’d love to hear anything else you have to say.

[3inghao]

How did you and Meena become a couple? Tell the whole story.

well…the story is quite long….but i guess our anniversary is the day to tell it! so we’ve gone to school all through middle school and high school together. We were in student council in middle school together but we weren’t really friends. And in high school we just had some classes together randomly (meena always thought i was really cool *wink wink*), and we started to get more acquainted with each other when i joined student council sophomore year and we sat next to each other in health class (although meena says this is not when we became friends *rolls eyes*). Then junior year we started to get a lot closer, we both had an executive position in student council and we would eat lunch together everyday for the majority of the year. We started to become a lot better friends this year and it was also the year I realized I was bi and trans and got into kpop lol. Near the end of the year I started talking to meena about kpop and she was super into kdramas and was like finn listen…you gotta watch my favorite kdrama reply 1997 bc it’s gay (read as lil gay babies bein stupid). So that summer was when we started hanging out outside of school. And when i say hanging out i mean we literally LIVED at each other’s house. We were with each other a majority of summer…she got SO into seventeen and we both watched a bunch of kdramas together. That was also the summer little closeted gay children finn and Meena came up with the Greatest Fanfic Idea Of All Time (plz read Ion You) that we started planning out as we went into senior year. As senior year came we started getting even closer than we already were like SO CLOSE IT WAS WEIRD. We like made our class schedules match up as much as possible so we could have classes together and we would take our free blocks together and just plan the fanfic but also just talk. And then as college applications came around we both would just chill at coffee shops or the library or each other’s houses for hours messing around/trying to write college apps. (and apparently when we would do this with other people they just felt like third wheels lol). And about a ¼ through senior year someone outted me to meena lololol (even tho i didn’t even tell them i was gay) but when meena confronted me I told her I was gay and then about a month later meena told me she was bi. And then about halfway through senior year this like group of friends we were apart of (we aren’t anymore) confronted meena when she was like “i don’t think I have really had a crush on many people” and they were like “nu uh you like finn !!” and then all the bricks came falling down and all the internalized crushiness hit meena across the face and she realized….frick…she actually likes me. Like we legit acted like we were dating we were so weird and whipped for each other omg, and she finally realized this and was like !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that whole week meena was acting so fricken weird around me but I didn’t understand why and then on that thursday she frantically called me and idk how much of this she wants me to say but long story short her parents found out about her being gay and so I went to go comfort her. And as we were sitting in my car she was like I didn’t want to tell you this way, but I like like you. and i was straight shocked…i don’t think I said much of anything after that and I just like died inside a little bit. bc i had never really thought about it and was like one of those people in high school that were like im not gonna date till college ! the next day at school was probably the worst day in existence bc she thought i was mad and her and i just didn’t know what to say or do and we had to spend the whole day together because we had almost all of our classes together. But the night before I had stayed up most of the night just like trying to work through this whole mess and there were just so many indicators that I had had a crush on her and she had a crush on me but we had too much like internalized homophobia to realize what was going on. And while I wasn’t sure, and I didn’t want to ruin our friendship, after our last class I pulled her to the side and said I liked her too and wanted to date. and she was estatic!! then we actually went to village in and shared a pie and it’s still one of my fondest memories of us

[chaj]

via planamag.com

Western reactions to K-pop, the acceptability of racist Asian jokes, and the perceived threat of Asians

Source: Big Hit Entertainment

This is a guest article by EC

Follow EC on Twitter at @ececlulu

The first time K-pop boy group BTS performed in America was on their show, American Hustle Life, where members “worried they wouldn’t find 200 fans to fill the venue” they were tasked to perform at in 2014 (Billboard).

Two days ago, BTS performed live at the annual Dick Clark’s New Year’s Rockin’ Eve’ to millions of viewers and rang in the new year in America. Yet, Andy Cohen and Anderson Cooper of CNN chose to comment on how they were “lackluster”:

“I mean…here’s the deal. We gotta get real. We just saw BTS, we think they were phoning it in.” — Andy Cohen (2:06:46 on the countdown here)

All while BTS was still performing on stage.

I wasn’t surprised. Disrespect towards Asian artists isn’t new in the United States. Unfortunately, informed by a history of devaluing and antagonizing Asian work, Western reactions to K-pop haven’t been as accepting as media outlets have made them out to be.

Creator Ethan Klein of H3H3 Productions has never been one to shy away from controversy, especially on Twitter and his H3 Podcast series.

Indeed, when Blackpink came up in “The Most Liked Music Videos” segment of YouTube Rewind 2019, Klein commented:

“I don’t like K-pop, I hate K-pop. I don’t get BTS. They look like — They’re just a bunch of — How did this become a thing in Western culture? Where all these grown men and little girls are jerking off to little k-pop boys. It’s like a little fetish. It’s like a little tw*nk gay fetish about these k-pop boys.” — Ethan Klein, H3 Podcast #164 (25:45–26:10)

#h3h3isoverparty trended on Twitter almost immediately after the episode’s release. K-pop fans criticized how Klein characterized them as “little girls,” emphasizing the diversity of the fandom. Other fans called Klein out for xenophobia and homophobia.

Klein did not take the criticism seriously. In response, he tweeted:

My message to K-pop fans: Lighten up nerds, it you can't handle your hobby being made fun of a little bit then you are really are just a bunch of little girls jerking off to kpop boys.

 — @h3h3productions

To the rest of the world, this may be easily brushed off as just fandom drama. Yet on a deeper level, Klein’s comments reflect troubling stereotypes. His comments add to a history of Western racial humor typecasting, antagonizing, and devaluing Asians — normalized by comics, presenters, and public figures.

We’ve seen it before. 2016, on the Oscars stage: Chris Rock’s tasteless skit involving Asian children, ironically after criticizing the Oscars for lacking diverse representation (Vanity Fair). 2017, from the Chainsmokers: member Alex Pall joking about not bringing his dog to China in a Chinese interview (Mashable). 2018, in a comedy podcast by then-to-be-SNL member Shane Gillis (he got fired for this segment): “Why do the fucking ch*nks live there?” when discussing reasons for disliking Chinatown and Asians (Vox). 2019, in an unaired “America’s Got Talent” segment: Jay Leno’s tired joke about Koreans eating dog meat (NBC). All perpetuate damaging, xenophobic stereotypes about Asians. All portrayed as harmless humor.

There’s a lot to criticize in K-pop. Fancam spamming, cultural appropriation, sex crimes, etc., the list goes on and on. But stereotyping groups and the industry as a whole isn’t productive.

Categorizing something as humor can be extremely effective at perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

After all, the easiest response to someone taking offense is to counter: “it’s just a joke!” It’s an easy way to absolve the speaker of responsibility. Suddenly, it’s the listener’s fault for getting offended; they’re too sensitive, or too slow, or just unable to take a joke.

Now, imagine you’re at a bar. Or in an auditorium. Or at the Oscars. Or wherever you’re among an audience where there’s more than just you listening. I don’t know how many times I’ve kept quiet because everyone else around me is laughing.

Here’s the thing, though: not everything that elicits laughter is a joke.

There are good-natured jokes, and then there’s just plain old mockery.

If we look at racial humor, Yumi Nagashima, for example, incorporates lots of stereotypes about Asian women in her acts. Hasan Minhaj bases material on his Indian family and identity all the time. Misha Han, Joel Kim Booster, and more do similar things. But these comics incorporate stereotypes effectively. Often, their jokes are funny because their punchlines subvert what the audience expects according to their preconceived notions. Or, they attest to a universal experience between them and their audience. Most importantly, their jokes effectively provoke an examination of relevant social dynamics. Take one of Hasan Minhaj’s jokes: “Americans hit on the arm and bruise the body…Indians slap on the face and bruise the soul.” This plays on the stereotype of Asian parents utilizing corporal punishment, but consider the “bruise the soul” part. The joke prompts reflection — how and why does corporeal punishment bruise the soul? There’s an implied statement on the Asian practice of corporal punishment and how it affects children’s development here.

But where’s the punchline with the Asian jokes mentioned earlier in this article? Is joking about Asians eating dogs going to make Asians and Asian Americans listening reflect upon their dog-eating habits? No, because most of us don’t. Eat. Dogs. And even if we did, why is a joke about Asians eating dogs more acceptable than a joke about Westerners eating cows or pigs? We have to acknowledge the inherent cultural bias in these hackneyed comments about Asians consuming dogs. (See a great article about the double standard here).

Cheap shots like this only serve to denigrate Asians and Asian Americans. Like Klein’s and Gillis’s segments, their comments are mere bashing. Once called out, they attempt to mitigate reactions by characterizing their comments as humor. So why did they consider their comments acceptable in the first place?

The fact that racist Asian comments are considered acceptable says something about how Asians are viewed in the United States. Think model minority. We’re meek, submissive, quiet. We’re followers, listeners, takers of what we can get. We don’t complain about what we can’t get.

First, how problematic is it that this is considered what’s “model”?

Second, this makes us an easy target. Mockery works best when it’s one-directional.

The portrayal of Asians as meek and submissive has special implications for Asian men. As Klein echoed in his comments about K-pop, Asian men are effeminate, weak, and only desirable as fetish symbols.

Now, calling a star “gay” isn’t a new comment in pop culture. Justin Bieber, One Direction, and countless other young male stars have been insulted in a similar fashion online. Once these insults are levied at stars of Asian descent, however, racial implications are emphasized. To call a man “gay” and a “tw*nk” suggests emasculation and effeminacy, reflecting Asian stereotypes perpetuated by early racial theorists. Assistant Professor at Lebanon Valley College, Julia Meszaros, sums it up well in a HuffPost article:

In order to “prove” to the world that colonialism was indeed a “civilizing” mission, Western theorists utilized discussions of others’ aberrant sexualities to justify their interventions abroad. As white Europeans colonized large swaths of Asia, white masculinity was posited as the apex that men could potentially reach. Asian men were placed on the opposite side of the spectrum and constantly portrayed as feminine and weak in the face of European conquerors. The colonial stereotypes regarding Asian men’s femininity continue to inform our current racial stereotypes. — Julia Meszaros, HuffPost

The stereotypical portrayal of Asian male stars isn’t new. Psy, when Gangnam Style became popular in the United States, received similar emasculating comments. In an analysis of Western media coverage of K-pop published by the University of Chicago, author Jenna Gibson notes that:

In addition, even supposedly positive appearances brought with them problematic stereotypes that likely colored the view of K-pop among readers or viewers. Particularly when discussing Gangnam Style and Psy, articles often described him as unattractive, chubby, and quirky, exoticizing and ultimately dismissing supposedly shallow Asian pop culture, as well as feeding into problematic stereotypes of hilarious but ultimately emasculated Asian men. — Jenna Gibson, University of Chicago

Here, we see a conflict between Western media’s desire to take advantage of the hallyu wave and its inability to tell informed, aware stories because of internalized biases. K-pop’s ability to generate buzz and conversation is undeniable. This is why there’s been a surge in news outlets covering K-pop and celebrities dropping K-pop names to attract views and clicks. And by the nature of media, there’s nothing wrong with that. What’s wrong is relying on clichéd stereotypes to frame commentary. Stereotypes that inform judgment.

Klein likely meant to generate controversy with his comments, not attack a whole racial group — he’s basked in the attention that fans on both sides have given him in the past few days. Yet no matter the intentions, the result is the same, and it again reflects upon how casually racism against Asians is accepted in the Western world today.

Furthermore, we can differentiate between standard anti-pop reactions and anti-Asian reactions by identifying an anti-Asian narrative painting Asians as alien and not belonging. About K-pop entering the US, Klein exclaims, “how did this become a thing in Western culture,” exasperated. Here, BTS and K-pop are portrayed as infringing upon “Western culture.” Subtext: they don’t belong — they shouldn’t belong. Klein’s comments, while reflecting standard anti-pop reactions combined with emasculating stereotypes against Asian males, also reflect another troubling angle on Asians: that they are somehow threatening to the Western status quo. It isn’t hard to draw a parallel between this stance and Yellow Peril, emphasizing again just how racially charged Western reactions to K-pop are.

Yellow Peril, a racist term originating from the 19th century, describes the existential threat that Asians pose to Western culture and lifestyles; it was popularized as Asian workers began to immigrate to the West. Economically, Westerners feared that Asians workers, who often worked for much lower wages, were undercutting native workers and stealing their work. Sexually, racial theorists painted Asian men as predators of white women and Asian women as hyper-sexual and submissive. Politically, Asian immigrants were seen as potential security threats and carriers of communism. These stereotypes combined built up the metaphor of Yellow Peril, which informed legislation such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and race riots such as the Chinese massacre of 1871. The depiction of Asians and Asian forces as threatening continues to exist and inform action in today’s society. White flight, when white people move out en mass out of ethnicized suburbias, often comes from fears that their children will be unable to compete with minority children in public schools. We see headlines about China encroaching on trade almost every day. And online, anti-Asian rhetoric festers in forums, posts, and social media.

Western society fears Asian improvement. It tells the Asian individual, yes, pull yourself up by the bootstraps enough so that he/she can be used as a model, an example, but never pull yourself up high enough to threaten existing power structures. Racial rhetoric places Asians as a convenient separator between white people and other minorities. The perceived success of Asians is used to delegitimize struggles faced by other ethnic groups; at the same time, Asians are still not welcomed into spaces traditionally inhabited by whites. The integration of Asians occurs when it only reinforces traditional hierarchies.

Pop music is not just a cultural export but also part of Korea’s economic engine. As K-pop songs begin to hit the US iTunes and Billboard charts, and as BTS begins to perform on shows such as New Year’s Rockin Eve, SNL, and GMA, the potential of K-pop unseating American pop (and by extension, Asian culture becoming more present in Western culture) becomes very real. This perhaps explains why as the Western music market has clamored to profit off of K-pop, they’ve carved out a niche for it instead of integrating it into the existing system. Despite high chart positions, K-pop songs are rarely played on radio. The VMAs were criticized for singling out K-pop as a category this year. Washington Post has called this “separate but equal” (Washington Post). And Klein’s comments, in an attempt to minimize the perceived threat of K-pop, infantilizes its fans and emasculates its idols.

BLACKPINK (Source: udiscovermusic)

It’s interesting to note that Klein’s first reaction, upon seeing a BLACKPINK music video, is to comment upon BTS’s entry into the US and not BLACKPINK’s. First, BTS is the representative group to Westerners right now. But beneath that, BTS is a male k-pop group, and in our examination of reactions to K-pop, we cannot ignore the implications that gender may have. Different stereotypes of Asian men and women likely inform differing reactions to K-pop groups as well. Asian women have been historically stereotyped as submissive and compliant. Yet Asian men, on the other hand, have been also stereotyped as predatory to white women: Asian men are a threat to dirtying or contaminating the purity of the white race, as perpetuated by Hollywood and WWII-era propaganda. Emasculation is a solution, as is redirection. Comments describing Asian men as asexual or gay invalidate their supposed sexual agency against white women, and these stereotypes may explain why Asian men are often seen as the least desirable type of partner. Steve Harvey utilized a punchline in 2017 based on the idea that finding Asian men attractive is amusing (Hollywood Reporter). Data from Yahoo! Personal in the 2000s showed that “more than 90% of non-Asian women said they would not date an Asian man” (Sage Journals). And 10 years later, OkCupid’s data shows Asian men rated lowest by women on their platform (OkCupid).

Pop culture has fed into this stereotype. As Eddie Huang from Fresh Off the Boat wrote in a New York Times opinion piece:

“The structural emasculation of Asian men in all forms of media became a self-fulfilling prophecy that produced an actual abhorrence to Asian men in the real world” — Eddie Huang, The New York Times.

Keeping Asian men undesirable proves beneficial to non-Asian men, as non-Asian men will never be the “most undesirable one.” An ego boost of sorts. However, K-pop’s popularity proves that Asian men can be attractive in the West, thus threatening this dynamic between Asian men and non-Asian men. Deconstruct further and we return to the concept of Yellow Peril, of restricting the spread of Asian culture, ideas, and genes. To racists, with K-pop, as masses of female, white fans begin to find Asian men worthy of idolizing, the popularization of Asian men connotes not just a cultural takeover but perhaps a racial takeover as well.

K-pop has continued to break boundaries anyways — groups playing major stadiums, BLACKPINK headlining Coachella, NCT 127 appearing on major talk shows — so I’m optimistic. Ironically, growing up, I don’t think my friends or I have ever been questioned for idolizing white pop stars as Asian Americans. Our favorites: Taylor Swift and One Direction. Neither have Western stars ever avoided the Asian music markets. Linkin Park, Beyoncé, Avril Lavigne— all have toured China in the last decade. Dua Lipa just attended MAMA 2019. And arguably, collaborations between K-pop stars and Western artists can be seen as attempts to capitalize upon K-pop’s popularity as much as they can be seen as attempts to penetrate a Western market. It’s just that Western reactions to K-pop can be informed by Western stereotypes against Asians.

I think back to when I went to Poptopia this year, when NCT 127 played last. Fans called out 99.7, the organizer, for letting NCT 127 apparently headline while other artists such as Halsey and Lizzo were not headlining.

Fans Expressing Their Discontent (Source: Facebook)

In reality, Halsey and Lizzo played the longest sets. NCT 127 only played four songs: Cherry Bomb, Regular, Superhuman, Highway to Heaven. Yet during the break between Lizzo and NCT 127, I watched as throngs of attendees streamed out of the stadium, leaving only a sea of fans holding green lanterns in front.

As a family passed by, I overheard the son asking, “Mom, is the concert over?”

“It’s over, we’re going home,” she answered decisively, while the son looked back at the fans congregating in the front.

Attendees were still streaming out as NCT 127 danced to Cherry Bomb. Less than half of the floor and 100s sections stayed. I couldn’t stop thinking about how disheartening it must be to dance to a leaving audience. Of course, not being able to finish watching the concert could be attributed to other things. Needing to rise early for work or wanting to avoid the traffic, for example. But secretly, I griped about attendees not being able to stay for just 15 more minutes out of respect for a new group. It seemed to me that they weren’t taken seriously because they were new, they were Asian, and that they were foreign. Like the CNN comments. It’s true that Cohen and Cooper might not have found the performances engaging. But to criticize on live national television, while the group was still performing in the background, conveys a fundamental level of disrespect.

Perhaps, the question isn’t if K-pop is ready for the United States, but if the United States is ready to accept K-pop as legitimate.

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CNN, H3H3, and BTS: The West’s Disrespect of Asian Artists was originally published in Plan A Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.