#the silvans avari and sauron/morgoth all know this

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Legolas’s family’s jobs/responsibilities:

Thranduil: “king”, he really is the leader of the silvans but he was elected. Leadership does not pass down through the bloodline. Basically in charge of the silvans, the silvan army as a whole, as well as maintaining at least civil relations with the other elven realms. Most notably the other avari countries, bc, unlike the light elves, they don’t mind murder. Also, the silvans have had 4 different wars with them by the time the third age rolled around, there is tension there. It has gotten more chill over the millenia though.

Cloudryad: whatever she wants, basically. She was the leader of the silvans for millenia, she’s done. She does occasionally courier things between the silvans and avari, though. She’s got a wolf pack, so don’t piss her off. Tends to travel with the Nomad Avari elves in her free time.

Lasgen: Basically the creator and head of the silvans’ Assassination/black ops squad. Is only thrown onto the battlefield when they need a one sided massacre bc otherwise it’s just over kill. Instrumental in maintaining good relationships with the other Avari countries bc she gets on really well with most of the other generals. (Mind you, she gets along with the generals in the third age, she was down with ripping out the throats of their predecessors)

Lirion: head of R&D department. People are fooled into believing he’s the responsible one bc he’s more introverted. Yeah, no, he’s a mad scientist. Has torn apart the time/space continuum on several occasions. “I don’t fear god, he fears me”

Kleoyia: switches between a scout and the head of the Torture and Interrogation department. She’s really good at the torturing, so she’s always brought in on the large cases, but she also likes to travel throughout the world with nothing more than her horse. Fastest rider, which means she’s occasionally a messenger as well. She likes traveling so as to not loose herself to her more gruesome job.

Legolas: He’s actually a really respected warrior who often leads teams/squads. He’s the one that spends the most times out fighting, bc Lirion’s not interested, Kleoyia is more useful at gathering information in one form or another, and throwing Lasgen into the mix is overkill 95% of the time. Legolas is also the best elf to send in order to maintain positive relationships with the light elves bc he’s the least likely to explode.

Oropher: he’s dead.

Miriel: she’s also dead.

(Actually, wouldn’t it be cool if the silvans and avari, as a virtue of not worshiping the valar and instead worshiping their own gods, do not go to the halls of Mandos when they die and are instead transfered to an afterlife created by the very gods they worship? And that’s why you can’t find any of them in the halls or valinor? And why Miriel’s spirit ‘refused to come out of the halls’ (aka: the valar have no clue where she is)?)

[outofangband]

Awhile ago I hijacked @katekatharos‘s post about this so I’m finally making my own! More in the post Angband and in the iron hell tags

The cultural context of Morgoth is really fascinating to me.

There was Morgoth in the beginning of the elves. A dark specter, the dark rider they called him, who came in the night to take their children, steal them away to a dreadful unknown fate. After Morgoth is defeated in the War for the Elves, these memories fade to whispers and ghost stories but the fear does not. Perhaps some of their numbers are still lost to those dark lands. Sauron was maintaining control over Angband in the absence of his master, after all

And when black smoke rises from the Thangorodrim, the Avari, Sindar, and Silvan who see it know exactly what it means. And they are afraid. Some scatter, some leave over the Ered Luin, some prepare to fight. But the cultural memory exists among them and in that memory there is no knowledge of a true escape or victory.

The Green elves of course do suffer more direct losses in the beginning with the death of Denethor at Amon Ereb, etc

Then we have the returning Noldor, Maedhros, his family, and the host of Fingolfin. Only a small number, if any of them, were likely of the original group of Noldor who had once been in these lands and traveled from them to Valinor which is I think always interesting to consider.

Many of them knew him personally! Now, the fact that the Noldor and other Caliquendi know the gods on a personal level is always difficult to scale or compare but regardless, this is still a betrayal in this way. Many might have learned from him! They might have laughed at an off color but seemingly harmless comment he made at an otherwise dull event! They might have admired his style or persona or his work! They brought their trades to him for approval.

Some mistrusted him. Some were frightened by the stories that their population have grown up hearing, of Morgoth and his dread fortress carved into the Iron Mountains, the evil things that befell elves who were taken there.

But their people have not grown up in the shadow of Angband. To them Morgoth was a known figure, the deeds of his time beyond Valinor the stuff of rumors and ghost stories.

Maedhros’s imprisonment is in a place he grew up hearing about, always with the assurance that it was no longer one his people had to fear. The cruelty, dehumanization, violence and death he witnessed in Angband on such a massive scale was inconceivable to him prior to his capture.

The being who oversaw his torture he could remember from scattered events and ceremonies!

I also think about the differences in the ways former prisoners are treated by varying elven groups based on their history of imprisonment in their cultures.

Then we have Húrin, a human, who, after the death of his young daughter, goes outside to literally shake his fist at the sky and yell at who he (correctly) believes to be the culprit; Morgoth, the Dark Enemy, the being who has haunted the lives of his people and his allies, who’s forces burned Morwen’s family and home to the ground and nearly killed him and his brother at a young age...he’s never known Morgoth as anything other than a villain. Distant as a distinct entity though his forces and destruction are not and always evil, always a threat On that note, for Morwen and her people, the evil of Morgoth is an even more immediate evil, one that as taken their home, is responsible for the massacre of her people For the humans, many of them at least, Morgoth is not simply an evil god, he is a tyrant and warlord who has cost them their homes, families, lives, and cultures.

He is both a distant enemy, an evil tyrant, and an actor in a variety of mundane and even pleasant memories and stories.

It’s fascinating to me  

[thevalleyisjolly]

1) Someone’s personality is very likely to change at least a bit over the course of 6,500 years.

2)Tolkien never said that elves have long hair

This reads like bait, but what the hell, let’s go back to Tolkien and see what he says, shall we? It’s been a while since I’ve gotten out the ol’ Silmarillion, so I thank you for the excuse, anon, this was a lot of fun :)

An abridged summary of and commentary on the chapter “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age” in The Silmarillion, focusing on the passages which relate to Elrond, with references to The Lord of the Rings:

Second Age Review

SA 1: Fall of Thangorodrim and the breaking of Beleriand! Many of the Eldar go to live in Lindon, “Gil-Galad son of Fingon was their king, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, son of Eärendil the Mariner and brother of Elros first king of Númenor.”

Alright, young Elrond’s with Gil-Galad. Nothing much to remark upon there, we all know it. Some mention of his family (y’know, in case we forgot in one chapter that his dad is Eärendil the guy who sailed the Straight Path and got the aid of the Valar against Morgoth and then slew Ancalagon the Black and who also happens to be the heir of both the House of Hador and Turgon’s line), but that’s neither here nor there.

So what about the Eldar who didn’t settle in Lindon under Gil-Galad? What are they doing? Well, there’s a good number who sail to Eressëa. Some cross Ered Luin to the inner lands, many of which are Teleri and explicitly survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand. Huh, I wonder which character is not only the direct descendant of the kings of Doriath, but is also one of the only surviving Elvish descendants, and didn’t seize the opportunity to lead the remnants of his people who didn’t seem content to live under Gil-Galad’s rule.

SA 750: We have the establishment of Eregion, primarily the Noldor under Galadriel, Celeborn, and Celebrimbor. Celebrimbor, in particular, establishes strong friendships with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm.

Yes, Amazon, it was Celebrimbor who established a friendship with the Dwarves, long before there were any rings of power involved.

So it seems that around the start of the Second Age for about 750 years, there were Elves splitting off into various groups. Some heading West, some going East, setting up their own realms and alliances, the Avari minding their own business. We’ve got Oropher and Thranduil heading up both the Teleri and the Silvan elves, Celebrimbor in Eregion, and Celeborn and Galadriel first in Lindon and then splitting off to Eregion as well.

If we step back a chapter to the Akallabêth, we also see that Elros chose mortality and became king of Númenor, which is more or less the closest you can come to Valinor in Middle-Earth, and is indeed described as a little closer to the former than the latter. The people of Númenor are divinely blessed by the Valar, depicted as possibly the greatest height of mortal civilization ever seen, powerful enough that Sauron, a literal fallen angel feared them. And to think young politically ambitious Elrond chose not to be a king of Men!

Alright, but maybe he’s a bit young and inexperienced. Maybe he didn’t know how to leverage any of his many family ties or the considerable reputation of his father the literal Evening Star. Maybe he didn’t know how great the people of Númenor would become! This argument is kind of weak because Elros was the exact same age when he managed to do a pretty bang up job of uniting different Edain groups, ruling them, and building a new kingdom. But let’s say Elrond was not as politically deft as his brother (except…the show's description is of a canny politician?) Let’s fast forward a couple hundred years, shall we?

SA 1200: Here comes Annatar, everyone’s favourite deceiver! He’s here to rule them all, to find them and bring them all and in the darkness bind them, you know the gist. And he’s welcomed by the Eldar, especially in Eregion where “the Noldor desired ever to increase the skill and subtlety of their works.” Sauron’s good, he offers custom temptations. Want to tempt some craftspeople? Show them knowledge of smithing and magical craft, offer many gifts. And it works! He’s welcomed everywhere!

Except for Lindon, that is. Gil-Galad and Elrond, “they doubted him and his fair-seeming” and he’s not even allowed in Lindon. So, firstly, it seems like Elrond already has a fair bit of influence; it’s implied that he and Gil-Galad made that decision together. He could be a very trusted advisor, or as good as unofficial co-ruler, but whatever it is, he’s not exactly someone lacking political influence. “But having power’s never stopped someone from wanting more!” I hear all you cynics out there say. Well alright, if he wants more power, why not take up Annatar’s offer, or at least not burn that bridge? Which leads into secondly, when Sauron is (quite successfully) tempting the other Elves with knowledge and power, neither Gil-Galad nor Elrond want any of it? Won’t even entertain the gifts that Annatar offers?

SA 1600-1697: Okie doke, so Sauron makes the Ring and Celebrimbor figures out what he really is. Open war breaks out 93 years later, and two years later, in 1695, Gil-Galad sends Elrond to Eregion. Two more years later, in 1697, Sauron has overrun Eregion, killed Celebrimbor, and forced Elrond into retreat with the remnants of the Noldor. It’s at this time that Imladris is founded as a stronghold and a refuge.

Little is said of Elrond during the Second Age after this. A lot of shit goes down with Númenor, as detailed in the Akallabêth, and the next time Elrond reappears in the narrative is in 3431, nearly 2000 years later, when the Last Alliance is formed and Gil-Galad and Elendil march to Imladris and muster their troops there. From other sources, including Elrond’s own monologue in Fellowship of the Ring, we know he was part of the Last Alliance and that he fought in the war and that afterwards, he and Círdan counselled Isildur to destroy the Ring, but did not press the issue. Also at some point before his death, Gil-Galad entrusted Elrond with Vilya, one of the three Elven Rings.

Discussion

So what do we learn from all this? Well, we see that despite multiple opportunities throughout the Second Age to make a play for power, he doesn’t. He doesn’t really need to in the first place, Gil-Galad obviously holds him and his opinions in high esteem. He doesn’t make a play for king of the Sindar or king of the Noldor, or even High King of the Eldar after Gil-Galad’s death, despite being related to almost all the Eldar kings. He doesn’t split off and start his own realm when everyone else is doing it at the start of the Second Age. Several hundred years later, when a group of Noldor split off from Gil-Galad’s rule and go with Galadriel, Celeborn, and Celebrimbor to Lindon, we don’t see Elrond taking advantage of the opportunity with them.

In fact, he only establishes his own place while he’s on the run from Sauron, and it essentially starts out as a refugee camp. Even later, Imladris was never a vast and stretching realm - it's pretty much a valley and maybe some of the surrounding lands; no borders on the map, just a dot. And even with the rule of Imladris, he still remains in Gil-Galad’s service, serving as his herald with no apparent complaints.

I mean sure, you could take the cynical view and argue that the narrative doesn’t show everything, that the narrative is biased, that Second Age Elrond was pulling a very long con and putting up some kind of facade of humility. But in a story that’s all about hope, that’s about characters in the midst of horrible events choosing to do good, to do better than has been done to them, why would you go that route? Some stories explore realism and even cynicism, characters with complex motives and behaviours, and those are fine and good! But Tolkien’s brand of fantasy has never been about that, not even The Silmarillion, which could be subtitled “Everyone Behaving Badly.”

We do have politically ambitious characters in The Silmarillion. There are tons of them, bucket loads of them. Most of them end up dead, but let’s look at one famous example that survived. Her name is Galadriel, and her character journey from The Silmarillion all the way up to and through Lord of the Rings has been about pride and ambition. And her personality has changed "at least a little bit" over those thousands of years, the Galadriel we see in Lord of the Rings is a great deal less ardent and militant than the Galadriel who left Valinor to rule her own kingdom. Even then, her ambition for power is something she continues to struggle with, as we see with the Ring's test.

Galadriel is a politically ambitious character whose personality has certainly changed across the thousands of years she’s been alive. And the thing is, her pride and ambition were very active during the Second Age! She would not go back to Valinor when the Valar offered a pardon, but stayed in Middle-Earth where she eventually split off from Gil-Galad and took a portion of the Noldor to Eregion, and then later on, took up rule in Lothlórien. Literally, Galadriel is right there if the series wants a canny political player who is canonically eager for power.

Conclusions

I’m actually fine with departures from Tolkien. I’m not in the camp that thinks we need to follow every single thing he writes, especially when it comes to things like race. Hell, it’s not even really possible to follow everything Tolkien wrote because he could change his mind a half dozen times on the same thing! Go ahead and explore a character more deeply, or come up with creative interpretations of the worldbuilding, or flesh out some aspect of the story you want to know more about.

But as with fan works, there’s a point (and this is a highly personal and subjective point) when it departs from the story so much that it’s no longer recognizable as the same story or characters you fell in love with. It's not necessarily a bad thing - there have been adaptations that departed drastically from Tolkien but have been entertaining stories in their own right. It’s just something different. For me, “politically ambitious” not only fails to resemble anything we know about Elrond from any of Tolkien’s writings, but it’s a character interpretation that I’m not excited about. Of all the directions they could have taken Elrond -his ties to Númenor; working through his family history; being a loremaster in a world where so much knowledge has been lost or destroyed; becoming a great healer- they had to go the ambitious politician route?

Solely in regards to Elrond, I’m not terribly impressed by the creative direction they've chosen to go with him.

+ A Note On Appearances

It's true, I’ll grant you that Tolkien never said Elves couldn’t have short hair. But if we want to play the game of quoting Tolkien, we could also say that “His hair was dark as the shadow of twilight…his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars.” (“Many Meetings,” Fellowship of the Rings)

So if you want to go by what Tolkien did and did not say, Elrond should unequivocally have dark hair and grey eyes, full stop. He should also resemble Luthien, since Arwen is said to be “the likeness of Luthién” and also “so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed she was one of his close kindred.”

But hey, who’s to say he didn’t dye his hair?

[diversetolkien]

I hope I’m not too late @diversetolkien, but I wrote this meta on decolonization themes for the anti-racism topic for Diverse Tolkien week! I love your meta’s and they definitely inspired me to write about my two favorite characters Andreth and Nimrodel both of whom are great anti-colonization devices and are also coded as WOC.

Aegnor and Amroth both represent white colonial establishments in power; however, we see them both as assimilating into their lover’s culture and lifestyle. Aegnor who’s one of the few elves ever to be on the frontline and fight alongside Andreth’s people. Aegnor who we have the implication that Andreth told him (and not Finrod) the human lore the Wise kept secret from Elves which as they should lol considering how Elves like Finrod react. Finrod who diminished and patronized Andreth, which is why she shuts down during their conversation, but Aegnor on the other hand who respected Andreth’s culture and believes in the idea of Morgoth as the one who caused humans to now leave Arda and have short lived lives (basically the Adaneth’s Tale).

When we’re first introduced to Aegnor, he echoed similar colonialist thoughts like Fingon and Angrod when they dreamed of creating kingdoms in far off lands they have no right to despite knowing that the Avari live in Middle Earth. The Noldor’s motivations overall have a lot of colonialist implications; however, we do see a journey of growth from Aegnor and him assimilating and respecting Andreth and her people really emphasize how much his mindset has changed. Tolkien had this strange theme of differentiating “good” colonialism as seen in the Noldor and later the Sindar’s arc too (which makes Aegnor stand out even more for this shift in mindset) and Aragorn in the 4th age, which is romanticized and glorified, versus "bad" colonialism, which is rightfully condemned, in the King’s Men and Numenor. It’s awful because all colonialism is terrible.

Andreth to me is the Edain equivalent to Nimrodel, who is coded as a WOC. Both are anti-colonization symbols who keep their own culture and maintain their own lifestyle prior to the introduction of the respective colonial establishments of the Noldor and Sindar. Nimrodel who continues to only use the Silvan language and rejects the Sindar way of living and culture, which was forced onto the Silvan elves. Andreth who’s literal job is to maintain human lore and the culture prior to ever meeting the Noldor. Andreth who wholeheartedly defends her own people. Andreth who is also coded as a WOC (her appearance is NEVER talked about and considering the House of Beor has canon dark skinned people to put two and two together Andreth is a dark skinned WOC -- Tolkien always tried to avoid being called out for racist story lines by making the character in question always ambiguous in ethnicity but nonetheless the coding is always there still).

Andreth and Aegnor’s narrative are heavily entwined with Nimrodel and Amroth. I don’t see any similarities between them and the other Elf/ Mortal pairings simply because a large difference between them and Andreth and Aegnor is that Tolkien himself is heavily against women who he feels is “lesser” than their lover. Both end in tragedies despite the love being of the star crossed lovers type, and I feel like a lot of it is because both narratives include a lot of anti-colonization themes which went against the larger themes of Tolkien's works which often glossed over themes of colonization and glorified it.

Nimrodel’s whole arc resonates with indigenous groups who are justifiably angry at white colonizers such as Amroth and his family. Amroth does later assimilate into Silvan culture, but regardless he definitely profited from the Sindar’s colonization of the Silvans. His family ruled over the Silvan elves who had not had kings prior to the Sindar’s influence as well as led the Silvan Elves to war with Sauron leading to so many innocent lives being taken not to mention how under prepared the Silvan Elves were against what they were facing. Andreth herself pushes back on the colonial propaganda that surrounds the Noldor. Finrod tries to literally correct Andreth’s own experiences, but Andreth remains stalwart in defending her people’s culture and traditions. Both characters definitely are narrative twins including Amroth and Aegnor too.

[halfelven]

In your opinion, given that tolkien didn't give us much about him, who do you think oropher's parents were? Or like,do you think his parents were members of court given that he knew enough about kingdoms to make one? I've seen a lot of hc around it and I just wanted to know your opinion on the topic if it's not too much to ask? (Also, I'm srry if nothing of this makes sense)

I think his father was one of the Avari and that Oropher went on the Great Journey with his mother but they both stayed in Middle-earth since his mother was a relative of Elwë Thingol 

(I also hc that he was captured briefly by Morgoth’s forces and escaped but the capture significantly influenced his opinion on the Ainur)

so Oropher is Elmo’s son Galadhon’s daughter’s child. Making him a nephew to Celeborn, and great-grand nephew to Thingol. I have not come up with a name for his mother (because the one I used as a kid was like pulled off a ‘cool elvish names! site’) Nimloth and Legolas’s names are kind of similar imo so it makes sense to me that they’re all somewhat related. (Plus there’s  the note on Celeborn’s close kin having names related to trees and Oropher is literally a tree name and Legolas is a tree related name.)

but yes that would make him a member of the court, and he would know a lot of how the running of the country went and politics, law, etc. 

anyway when Melian leaves he’s let down by the Ainur again so he’s like hmm going to go run off and see if I can find my father or kin with the Silvan elves (since some of the Avari later joined with the Silvan elves) and no I don’t think he ever found his father, but he did get to be happy with his back to the nature no interference from the Valar/Ainur bit for awhile before Sauron decided to ruin things for everyone again 

this ask made perfect sense dw 💖 

but this whole section is so complicated because there are so many drafts and versions that contradict each other and it feels like half of it will mess up the written story so. unreliable narrator/unreliable history indeed

[slvrlnce]

VERSE  SPECIFIC  HEADCANONS :  tolkien

The Bethmoora elves are cousins to the Avari and reside in Rhûn, the East lands of Middle Earth and were among those who refused to make the Great Journey west with the Eldar. Isolated from their brethren the Bethmoora stood resistant against Morgoth and later Sauron, building their cities beneath the Hearth tree, beneath a great mountain where they prospered away from the searching eyes of their enemies. The Bethmoora would wage their own wars against the corrupting might of both Morgoth and Sauron, though their tales of plight and victory are kept only by themselves and the Easterlings. The Bethmoora however were few in number, their population smaller even than the Avari, and still even fewer, besides the Bethmoora warriors led by Prince Nuada, risk to venture from their underground city.

The Bethmoora appear unlike any other elven kind in Middle-Earth, pale as bone with golden cat-like or hawk-like eyes and pale or amber hair, they appear somehow nearer to the earth and the trees they were said to be born from, with branches which grow from their crowns once they enter their final adult age. Very little is known about their culture even by their brother-kin, the Eldar and Silvan, as they are considered ‘refusers’ and the ‘unwilling’ for having refused the Great Journey. What contact the Eldar and the Silvan have had with the Bethmoora has created a view of them being secretive, aggressive, disagreeable and immensely proud.

Bethmoora are considered isolationists, no outsider has ever seen their city beneath the Hearth tree and very few outsiders even know the location of their city. Merchants and traders only ever leave their city once a year to trade with the Iron Hills, Erebor and the Greenwood elves and are always clad head to toe, features covered by beaded veils or handwoven masks that conceal their appearance from curious eyes. The civilian Bethmoora are far more timid and sheltered than Nuada and the Bethmoora warriors that make contact more often with outsiders but as they very rarely leave their homeland this is not known.

Nuada was born to his father and King of the Bethmoora, Balor, during the Second age, conflict and hostilities with the Easterling tribes of man were countless and Nuada would often lead raiding and war parties against their enemies to protect their lands. He would earn the title of Shadow’s bane as he was almost constantly in conflict with Khamûl, King of the Easterlings, the Shadow of the East, who was gifted with one of the Rings of power by Sauron and second only to the Witch-king. Due to the Bethmoora’s small population however, Nuada was unable to defeat the tribes of the East on his own and when Khamûl departed to wage war against the west, Nuada followed with a company of only nine fellow Bethmoora warriors.

Nuada and the Bethmoora joined the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and laid siege to Barad-dûr with their kin and with the armies of men. The Bethmoora tore through their enemies like streaks of gold and silver, tales sing of them walking on sunlight and fire, a blur among the armies of Orcs and it was here that Nuada earned his second title as Silverlance. Though victorious with the defeat of Sauron and the scattering of his armies, Nuada was the only survivor of the ten Bethmoora warriors to have traveled west to join the Alliance. During the last days of the fall of Sauron, Nuada rekindled relations with his elven brethren, most notably with his neighbors, the elves of the Greenwood though the secretive nature of the Bethmoora has caused their relationship with Thranduil and his kin tension over the years. As time went on the Prince would also make contact with the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and open trade routes between the Iron Hills and through them, with the Dwarves of Erebor, though trade only exists once a year with merchants and traders escorted by Nuada and a handful of newly trained Bethmoora warriors to the Iron Hills or Erebor.

Nuada has become the hand of Bethmoora and his father and King’s emissary, leaving the comforts of his home to negotiate trade dealings, though like Bethmoora’s dealings with the dwarves, these trades typically only occur in bulk once a year. The Bethmoora also hold alliances with their neighbors the Men of Gondor and Rohan against the various Easterling tribesmen and Orcish raiding parties. Often, Nuada is the only contact that any outsider has with the Bethmoora, he travels alone and is called the Wandering Prince, the Last Warrior of Bethmoora and the Yellow-eyed fiend, though usually only by his enemies.

Since Sauron’s defeat at Barad-dûr he has made several attempts to locate the Bethmoora’s city and while Nuada has trained new warriors since the Second Age, their numbers are still few and far between and their duty lies almost solely in the protection of their city as they are surrounded by enemies. Their secrecy and reluctance to allow others know of their location is due to necessity but it has caused many outsiders to question their stance against the armies of Sauron, especially during the War of the Ring.

Nuada is curious of men, halflings and dwarves, often interested in their stories and legends, as well as their culture and their crafting, such as blacksmithing and architecture. Nuada himself is something of an innovator, he enjoys tinkering and creating fantastical, delicate devices that can come to life under his guidance and trades his pieces while on the road. Unfortunately, Nuada’s disposition has done little to counter act the beliefs of the Bethmoora being somewhat violent and feral as he is often quick to temper and even quicker to strike.

Things that Outsiders know / think about Bethmoora elves:

Reside somewhere in Rhûn under a mountain

Bethmoora roughly translates to ‘people of the earth and/or trees’

Prone to violence, especially when insulted

Insults used for Bethmoora (though wisely not often to their faces) ‘go back to the dirt’ (means fuck off and die), ‘go back to your cave’ (just fuck off), ‘may your trees turn to ash’ (more like a curse/threatening death to all that a Bethmoora loves), ‘fainthearted cave-dweller’ (actually used by other elves and is an accusation of cowardice / being a coward), ‘no one/nothing’ (denial of existence / implies the Bethmoora are dying/fading/gone, favored by Easterlings)

Kill anyone and anything that comes close to their territories unless carrying the royal seal (Bethmoora clan symbol of the Hearth tree)

Omnivores

Known for ‘magical’ technologies

Their trade wealth lies in two kinds of unique metals that are mined only in Bethmoora

The most abundant is called asgeðe, or ‘bone steel’, which is a pale white and sometimes a pale gold-like metal

The second and more rarer and protected is called telpënethra, or ‘silver core/heart silver’, like bone steel, it can be smelted like any other metal

Wear veils that hide their faces

Royal colours are red and gold while war colours are red and black

Their love of dwarven ale is renown in the Iron Hills (it’s like soda for Bethmoora)

[undercat-overdog]

On Sindarin attitudes towards the Valar.

While the Amanyar would know all the Valar – and some have personal relationships with them – they would be far more distant to the Sindarin (and Nandor and Avari, but I’m not concerned with them here). There are only two Valar that a Sinda would have ever met in Middle-earth (well, three, if you include Morgoth), and I think another two (three including Mandos) that they would have much cause to think about. I think in general the Sindar have a more distant relationship with the Valar, and less positive attitudes towards them, than the Amanyar do.

This meta also gives Sindarin names for the Valar discussed below, if any authors are interested in that.

In the Age of the Trees, there are certainly some Sindarin who resent the Valar for leaving them in Middle-Earth – of note, the Falathrim (and possibly Mithrim) call themselves the eglain or eglath, which means 'forsaken ones.' Which, uh, says something about how they feel.

The Doriathrim would almost certainly know about all the Valar, given Melian's Maia-ness and Thingol going to Valinor, but without them actually meeting any, I think that their attitude towards the Valar is distant, though possibly somewhat positive.

The Mithrim may have more negative associations with the Valar than the Doriathrim. I think one of the reasons that they split from the Doriathrim was because of their suspicion and anger towards Melian, who kidnapped their their king and caused them to miss the boat to Valinor. Melian is the Valar's kin, so...

The Falathrim are led by Círdan, who has a personal relationship with Ulmo. Since the Falathrim, as noted above, call themselves 'the forsaken', I think it's rather likely that they also had a not-entirely-positive attitude towards the Valar. Of note, the Falathrim taught Turgon's people how to build and sail boats when Turgon tried to send sailors to Aman to plead for aid against Morgoth. Given that all those boats were sunk by the Valar, I imagine there was a fair bit of anger (and despair), especially since some Falathrim sailers were probably aboard them. (Which, wtf Valar! Killing people trying to send an SOS – and some of the sailors were born in Middle-earth too!)

As most of the Noldorin Exiles seem to have gone back to Aman after the War of Wrath, I also think that 2nd and 3rd Age Elven culture takes more after Sindarin culture in this regard, since it's likely, between the Exiles returning and the sheer death toll of the First Age, that the attitudes of the Elves of Noldorin descent (either pure or mixed) who stay in Middle-Earth are more similar to Sindarin ones than Noldorin ones. (Honestly, I'm not sure we can even talk of separate Sindarin and Noldorin cultures in the Second and Third Ages – I think they're pretty much blended at this time. And in Mirkword and Lothlorien, where there is less Noldorin influence (and probably none in Mirkwood), there’s also a huge Silvan influence.)

And, of course, early in the Second Age there's probably some anger over the Valar sinking Beleriand. In addition, the main Maia the ME Eldar have contact with is Sauron, who’s not exactly a stellar example of his kind.

On to the Valar that I believe the Sindar would think about:

Orome is obvious. He was the Vala that came to the Elves at Cuiviénen before the Eldar-Avari split. All groups of Elves would have cause to know about him, including the Avari (though the Avari probably see him in a more negative light). Sindarin hunters may or may not pay heed to him – I'm not sure he was particularly a god of hunting to the Úmanyar since the one thing we are told he did after the Eldar left Cuiviénen was introduce them to the lembas.

His name in Sindarin would be Araw (in the Doriathrim and Falathrim dialects) and Arum in the Mithrim and Noldorin Exile dialect.

Ulmo is also an obvious Vala: we are told that Círdan in particular was close to him. Whether or not he told the Sindar about the rest of the Valar is debatable, given his independent nature.

His name in Sindarin is either Ulu or Guiar (or Uiar, depending on which Proto-Quendyan root the word 'sea' comes from; Tolkien went back and forth). Ulu is the direct cognate of Ulu, but apparently Guiar was used more often.

The Maiar Osse and Uinen may also be of particular interest to the Falathrim. Osse's in Sindarin are Yssi or possibly Gaerys (which combines the word 'terror' with the proper name 'Yssi', which... says a lot about how he is viewed). Uinen is more difficult – in the Noldorin language that would eventually become Sindarin (after Tolkien made some changes), her name is also Uinen. I don't know enough about the historical development of Sindarin to recontruct it, so authors who want a Sindarin name might stick with Uinen.

Yavanna doesn't seem to interact at all with Middle-earth, at least not with the Elves, however she would certainly be known to them as the patron of the lembas cult. Botanists and farmers may or may not venerate her, but I lean towards not – I think she was only called upon when elven women were growing the corn for lembas and making the bread, but ymmv.

Yavanna's name in Sindarin is Ivann or Ivon. The name for the Yavannildi, the women who are part of the lembas cult, is Ivonwen in the singular and Ivonwin in the plural.

Varda is the last Vala. She's a tricky one – I can go either way about whether the Sindar thought about her before the Noldor arrived, though I think I fall on the side that she is venerated pre-Noldor. Again, Melian knows who the Valar are, and given how much the Elves love the stars and the role they play in Elven culture, 'knowledge about Varda probably spread from the Doriathrim to the other Sindarin groups. In addition, there doesn't appear to be a direct cognate of Varda in Sindarin, which probably indicates that she was known and venerated pre-Noldorin contact.

Of note, Varda seems to be the most distant of the Valar? Alone of the Aratar, the chief Valar, she has no dialogue that I can find. This may mean that she's not blamed for things like 'sinking Beleriand', especially since as the Vala who made the beloved stars, the Elves already have a positive opinion of her. Post-First Age, the Elves continued to venerate her – she is the only Vala mentioned in Lord of the Rings, so she is the most prominent in their cultural consciousness.

Varda's name in Sindarin is Elbereth and Gilthoniel, which mean 'star-queen' and 'star-kindler', respectively. Gilthoniel can also be translated as ‘female person who lit up the stars.’

After the Darkening, there are two more Valar that come into the cultural consciousness of the Sindar:

Námo Mandos is the Vala of the dead, and once people start dying, well... The Sindar probably find out more about him once the Noldor arrive in Beleriand, but if Elves have near-death experiences, some Sindar may have already had contact with him. Mandos in particular I think is viewed with some apprehension by all the Eldar – even the name Mandos means 'prison' – note that the root is also found in Angband (Quenya Angamando), which means 'iron-hell' or 'iron-prison'.

Námo may be called Badhor or Badhron, 'judge'. Mandos might be called Band, 'prison', which, uh, says something about how the Elves view the place of the dead and its keeper.

Morgoth, the Satan of the angelic Valar.

Morgoth is a Sindarinization of Quenya Moringotto (or Moringotho for Elves that keep the thorn – which, note, seems to have included Finarfin and his kids save Galadriel, though I kinda think they'd change /θ/ to /s/ on the march across the Helkaraxe). As such, Morgoth would only be called Morgoth after the Exiles arrive in Beleriand. Before that, he might be called Bauglir, which has its root in 'cruel, oppressive.'

(All names are from elfdict.com and searching through the Etymologies in HoME V.)

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Okay listen, absolutely joining the Legolas is old af boat, love the vibe, but what if he is genuinely that old AND still considered ‘young’ by his people? I recon that the silvan concept of age is vastly different to the noldorians simply because they didn’t start shit and typically minded their damn business meaning more of them survived. So he’s essentially super old by noldorian standards but considered pretty young by silvan standards. Pretty much ever other elf he’s met just assumed he’s ‘young’ by their typical standard (joyful personality only exacerbates this) and vastly misjudged his actual age

Also hello I love your blog!! Hope you don’t mind me adding this!

OH MY GOD YES, WELCOME ABORD!! AND OMFG THAT’S HILARIPUS I CAN JUST IMAGINE IT:

Legolas: casually comenting on how he’s one of the younger silvans on occasion

The noldo/sonda: ph, so he was probably born in the third age then, and this is his first tussle woth sauron, and he’s never even witnessed morgoth’s bs woth his own eyes

The twins (yes, i will alwys use the peredhel s a medium for these bizarre reveals bc i feel like they’re more open to asking questions about the silvans: *trying to figure out if they’re older or younger than legolas* so when were you born then?

Legolas, after thinking for second: well i was born about 1000 years before the feanorians landed on these coasts, so about *counts fingers* only 8 thousand years.

Elrond, who’s walking past: HOLD ON, WHAT-!?!

Legolas, continuing: None of my peers ever let me forget it, when we’re off duty i’m always refered to as the “baby captain”. With my siblings i can put up woth it, but oh my god, assholes, get over it! If they can bitch about it, they can work on their skills. Then they won’t have to take such a youngen’s orders!

Elrond, slightly histarical: hold on hold on hold on- you’re how old?!? That’s older than me! That’s older than my parents! Or my grandparents! You could’ve known luthien-

Legolas: -i did know luthien-

Elrond: AND YOU SAY YOU’RE YOUNG!?!-

Legolas: i am young:

Elrond: what am i a baby in your eyes??? A fetus?? Or my kids just eggs??? Oh my god, does that mean that all the times thranduil refered to himself as one of the youngest of the avari/silvan rulers, that doesn’t actually mean he’s that young either? Wll, he’s your dad, so he’s at least older than you- *horrified gasp* *horrified whisper* does that mean all this time we commented on his “young age” he was looking at us like we were fucking morons???

Legolas: i mean, tbf, 95% of the avari/silvan rulers are all elves that awoke at the lake way back when, while my father was born the old fashioned way, so when sm1 says they’re younger than the avari/silvan rulers, it don’t mean much…

Elrond: wait, but how are you still considered young by your elves’ standard?? Aren’t there a lot of older elves that have died?

Legolas: well, for one we haven’t killed each other for jewelry.

—————-—————————————————————————

No, but it probably helps that legolas is the younger/youngest sibling, and all the elves just automatically assume that, bc he’s the youngest of his siblings, he’s young. For some reason, a lot of people have a bad habit of considering the “-er” and “-est” to mean essentially the same.