#theatre commentary

[princesssarisa]

Musical fandoms and ingenue hate

Is this really such a problem?

There's a YouTuber named Katherine Steele who mostly makes videos about musical theatre, and who has a small video series in defense of ingenue characters, titled "Why Everybody Hates..."

There are four videos in the series: "Why Everybody Hates Cosette" (Les Misérables), "Why Everybody Hates Christine" (The Phantom of the Opera), "Why Everybody Hates Johanna" (Sweeney Todd), and "Why Everybody Hates Maria" (West Side Story).

Some other sources – like TV Tropes, for example – have cited those videos to talk about why these characters are "widely" disliked.

But is it really true? Of all four of those musicals' fandoms, I've only been deep in the Les Misérables fandom, but from what I've seen people say about the others, I had no idea that those ingenue characters got big amounts of hate!

Being indifferent to the character doesn't count as hate, nor does considering her unoffensive but boring.

Do Johanna and Maria get the same kind of real loathing in the diehard Sweeney Todd and West Side Story fandoms that we see in the Les Mis fandom with talk about "that horrid Cosette," "I hate her with a passion," etc?

There is a lot of visceral, venomous Cosette-hate in the Les Mis fandom, or at least there used to be in the '90s and early 2000s. But it has a cause: Éponine. Immature people hate Cosette because she's loved by Marius, when they want him to love Éponine instead. (And to a lesser extent because she "abandons" her father Jean Valjean, but that's more the novel's Cosette than the musical's.)

I know that there's also some Christine hate among Phantom Phans, which is also love-triangle related: they hate her for choosing Raoul instead of the Phantom.

But I had no idea that Sweeney and WSS fans were venomous about Johanna or Maria – are they?

From what little I've seen of Sweeney fans, I've occasionally seen them call Johanna boring or a Mary Sue (and even then, the context has been "I always thought she was, but then [insert actress here] made me appreciate her"). But for the most part, I see people talk approvingly about how she's more complex than an average ingenue, how she can be played as mentally unstable, etc.

And Maria? Yes, there are the people who can't stand how quickly she forgives Tony for killing Bernardo. (Although that complaint only seems to have become widespread with the 2021 film's release – I remember occasionally reading it in the past, but not nearly as much as now.) But apart from that, and from sometimes seeing people call both Maria and Tony boring, I had no idea that anyone hated her! And if you think she had no characterization but "pretty and nice" until the 2021 film, then you've been giving both the stage version and the 1961 film a shallow surface read! She's always had intelligence, playfulness, passion and strength!

I'd like people who have been deep in the fandoms of these musicals to tell me. Is there really a widespread problem of loud, venomous hate for all these ingenue characters, the way there has been for Cosette in the Les Mis fandom? Or is it really just a few people calling them "boring" now and then, with only the love triangles in Les Mis and Phantom making people nastier about Cosette and Christine?

[obvslybatgrl]

Fall Guy might be movie of the year guys idk

[unproduciblesmackdown]

"...my one year anniversary being on testosterone!!! I had a vision of capturing my total gender euphoria [...] My trans and nonbinary body is divine I honor my body as it is now, and as it will be as I continue to become more and more myself..."

[chuckecheeseshippingdiscourse]

(decided to make this a separate post)

the survey is now closed (after 2 days, lol) but I wanted to share takeaways and thoughts, in case anyone missed it:

cec is considering preserving animatronics at more locations, ala northridge. only stores that currently have them installed (and are pre 2.0) are being considered. as of now, there are less than 30 existing stages in the country. no word on what this means for studio c, or if those locations are even being taken into account at all.

the “retro” concept stores that have been speculated about for years are back on the table. proposals include themed events, adult only dance/karaoke nights, and “classic menu items”, whatever the fuck that means (jasper’s giant hot dog???)

in my opinion, if cec is going to lean into this concept, they need to take it a step further than northridge and go all out in ways that I find it hard to see them doing at this point. skip the new signage and the video wall. turn the lights down. leave decor featuring outdated art of the characters intact. admittedly these are all things that are a lot harder to justify when you’re a company that centers an IP in ways that other companies that have experimented with “retro” stores (burger king, pizza hut) do not. cec has always prioritized brand consistency so it’s difficult to imagine this as an attempt to create a completely unique experience rather than an attempt to save money by only partially remodeling a handful of stores and reaping good pr from a desperate fandom, but maybe I’m being too cynical.

the survey then proposes a few more themed store concepts, revolving around tech, art, education and nature. follow up questions mention things like interactive art installations, a homework help lounge (???), robotic waitstaff, and an entirely campground themed location.

some of the phrasing used in this part of the survey makes me wonder how seriously these options are being considered, but if they are, it’s interesting to note that they seem to have more in common with a children’s museum than a pizza place, and might hint that cec may be looking at expanding more into the LBE industry after signing that water park deal. I have more thoughts about this that I’ll save for another time.

finally, the last set of questions reveal that cec is also apparently considering an official fan club with exclusive access to archival material, meetups and a corporate sanctioned forum.

lol. lmao, even.

anyway only time will tell what, if anything comes of this. the next three years should be interesting.

[nonbinarytheatrekid07]

Bro why are a bunch of smaller Broadway shows closing while others are celebrating their 10+ year anniversary??? New York, New York gave one week of notice for their closing, Good Night Oscar and Grey House are both closing before August and Camelot and Parade aren't even making it through august. Why is this happening???

[immamapletreekid]

ok movie thoughts time

[radi0activesmile]

Angel told him he couldn't crucify anyone on Valentine's day.

[datshitrandom]

Goin’ Back To Hogwarts • Ginny’s Song (Cho’s Song) • Sami/Harry • The Dragon Song • Granger Danger • Not Alone • Goin’ Back To Hogwarts

Source: ♡ Download: ♡

[starlene]

Also upset about the ugly-ass AI designed PotO they did in Bucharest that I only found out about when @frankwildhorn told me a week ago.

Just so you know, I guess.

[notesbynor]

I just watched Chicago (2002)

I

Im

My brain is gonna explode

[venusianfog]

ok i would love to meet more folks on here, not quite sure how but i recall people just posting a list of interests and going from there.

so anyway, my name is florence and i’m 22 here are some things i like and do

• hozier (and many other musicians lol)

• bears

• witchcraft

• hellenic polytheism

• tv shows and movies of various interest and amounts.

• so much musical theatre

• art!! historical art and modern

• commentary youtube

• video essays

• gah??? what else do i like. i like stuff.

if you also like things message me i would love to make some more friends

[this-doesnt-endd]

I love the museum scene from ferris bueller so much not only cause its just great but also cause like everytime i see it i see myself and think about how special that kind of moment is

[schleckermaul]

   ' weenie. '

[eccentricphilosoph]

Actors are not always the best people to date imo, but they are so charming and great to flirt and fantasize with and about

[thrashntreasure]

Ep45 Truly Hadley, Deeply… w/ Hadley Fraser! (West End!)

It's a-liiive, IT'S A-LIVE… conversation with West End hunk, Hadley Fraser, who joins the boys for a hilariously spooky Hallowe'en episode! Together, they'll discuss Dream Theater's epic 'Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory', before hopping into the lab for Evan's dissection of 'Young Frankenstein' via the Original London Cast! Plus we discuss Mel Brooks, Cultural differences, Doctor Who fans, and we find out what recent movie made Hadley cry! Despite that, it's a HAPPY HADLEYWE'EN! Err, that sounded wrong… www.twitter.com/hadleyfraser

[seoafin]

hello!! this is oh so random but have u watched across the spiderverse ? i really love reading abt ur thoughts on stuff and was wondering if u had any about it!

hi!!!! i have!!! i actually had quite a few thoughts on miguel's character and his role as an antagnoist and miles overall character progression through the movies but i unfortunately did not tag them 😭