How St Paul changed the world (Full Show) | Tom Wright & Holland
Justin Brierley is joined by leading New Testament scholar
NT (Tom) Wright & popular historical writer Tom Holland to
discuss how the apostle Paul changed the world as
described in Wright’s recent book Paul: A Biography.
An agnostic in terms of his religious commitments,
Tom Holland has nevertheless described the way
that the birth of Christianity has shaped much of
what we value in Western society in terms of
human rights, culture and rule of law.
He engages with NT Wright on the way that Paul &
the early Christian movement stood in stark contrast
to the prevailing Roman culture of its day.
Introduction: Tom Wright
Today on unbelievable, we're asking:
how did St.Paul change the world?
NT Wright (or Tom Wright) as he's popularly known is
one of the world's most influential BIBLE scholars.
And his new book: “Paul a Biography” is a detailed study
of the Apostle
who brought Christianity
from Jerusalem
to the rest of the world.
Saint Paul's influence is almost incalculable,
2nd only in the world to JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF.
As he took the good news of a Jewish Messiah to
the Roman Empire that ruled the world.
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has described Tom Wright's book as:
"An enthralling journey into the mind of Paul
by one of the great theologians of our time.
A work full of insight, depth &
generosity of understanding."
So it's pretty good when you can get endorsements like
that on your book jacket.
Introduction: Tom Holland
Opposite Tom Wright for today's discussion is another Tom.
Tom Holland, popular historian whose best-selling books
such as Rubicon & Dynasty have told the story of the
rise & fall of the Roman Empire.
While not a believer himself, Tom Holland is also working
on a new book on the way that Christianity became the
most revolutionary force for changing the world &
it'll be interesting to hear how you've been getting on
in that endeavour Tom.
Connection between Toms
Today is really an exchange of collegial discussion between
two people who are simply fascinated in this era of history.
What can we know from Acts & the letters in the NT about Paul,
& what are the gaps that we need to fill in about:
● Who Paul was, &
● How Paul went about his mission, &
● We’ll also talk about his famous conversion, &
● The unique way his theology developed as he
brought Jewish monotheism &
JESUS the Messiah together.
So Tom Holland & Tom Wright, welcome to the show, it’s great
to have you both joining me today.
We’ll come to you first of all Tom Wright, I'm probably going to
have to use surnames to distinguish you both today.
But you've been writing & researching Paul for decades now
haven't you? (yes) I mean the last, well, a couple of years ago
I had you on when you wrote your magnum opus—which was
(that's actually amazing that's 5 years ago that it came out,
yes extraordinary) The two volumes sort of very academic
(yes Paul & the Faithfulness of GOD)
Q1: And is this really I suppose in a sense the popular level
version of what you wrote then?
Tom Wright: Sort of yes & no, when I did that big book, several
people (both including colleagues in the discipline said:
"Wish you'd do a shorter one"
Of course part of the point of the longer one was that I've
been writing shorter things & articles.
And people had always said,
"Yeah, but you didn't explain this or
yes but surely that has to be contextualized there."
Okay, you want the big thing, here it is.
Then of course they all said it was far too long,
so it's as JESUS said:
"We danced for you & you wouldn't even sing;
& we wept & you wouldn't mourn."
But this isn't exactly a potted down version, because that
was a book on Paul's mind & theology.
Now there's a lot of mind & theology in here, but part of
the whole point of it is that what Paul was thinking & saying
was contextualized in a rich multi-layered life,
which was to do with both
his Jewish upbringing
& his amazing knowledge of
the Jewish SCRIPTURES.
And with his contextualizing in the Roman world, where
he was a citizen, & in the Greek world where he knew
his Epicureans from his Stoics.
And we see Paul navigating these things in a
multi-layered way, which I find just perpetually enthralling
because I grew up with a Paul who was basically
a brainbox who said prayers as it were.
And then the rest of it was off on the side.
The older I've got the more, the whole man (of Paul) speaks to
this whole man. And that's been really exciting.
Justin Brierley: You probably feel like you know his era
almost as well as you know your own now.
Tom Wright: Well let's put it like this, "My students mock me,
because when I say the war, I mean
the Jewish-Roman war of (66–70 AD)
—not World War one or two.
And they say, "well yeah I sort of mentally live in the 1st century,
though I've tried to diversify more recently, & get back
towards our days as well.
Justin Brierley: And just kind of give us a sense of
how you structure this particular because you called it
a biography & in that sense you are trying to write
something that's sort of a narrative.
Tom Wright: “oh yes"
Justin Brierley: It's not a sort of academic book,
in the traditional sense.
Tom Wright: No. It's not at all, I mean the only footnotes are
basically references to bits of the BIBLE, or bits of classical
sources & so on.
So there's no discussion of other scholarly views or
if I do say there are various views here, I don't actually go
into details as to who said it. You can find those elsewhere.
So this is going through from what we know about or can
infer about his early life; &
how he got to the point where
he was on the road to Damascus when dot-dot-dot,
& then what happened next...[4:33]
And as with virtually all ancient history, there are gaps.
That's quite normal, but when you have gaps in any
narrative (ancient or modern) what you can do is
probe cautiously—from either side, as it were,
with the bits you do know & say:
"Well it's possibly this, it's likely that, or
it’s almost certain that such & such.
And that's what I tried to do to construct a whole story.
Justin Brierley: And something of a gift to us, 2K years later;
that he was obviously a prolific letter writer.
Tom Wright: Well he was comparatively prolific, but actually
the letters are short, you know:
How many volumes do we have of Cicero's letters
in the lower classics? I mean just...[5:09]
Tom Holland: They go on & on..have you read them all?
Tom Wright: Exactly! Exactly they do go on & on.
And they're fascinating, they shed a flood of light &
all sorts of things in the 1st century BC Roman culture.
But for Paul we've just got these snippets
because he's writing on the go.
He's not leisured sitting there all day to compose, he's
really sending bulletins from the front as it were [5:33]
Tom Holland: Yeah
Tom Wright: So most of his time, he isn't writing letters,
so far as we know:
he's talking with people, he's preaching,
he's praying. He's always trying to organize
these little communities;
And then from time to time, he has to buzz off a letter
to somebody.
Justin Brierley: Yes & you're always obviously hearing
one side of the conversation, (yup) & you sort of have
to fill in gaps (yeah).
And you have to, I suppose as a historian Tom, what
you're doing as well as saying:
Well here is what we know is going on in the
wider culture, & that makes sense of why
Paul said this & did this..
Tom Wright: And particularly I am very fortunate in that
I came of age as a scholar just when the contemporary
revolution in modern Jewish studies was happening.
So that we've got the Dead Sea Scrolls, in good modern
editions, we've got new good editions of Josephus.
We know much much more about the early rabbis,
than we did 50 years ago because of massive work
that's gone on. [6:23]
So we can reconstruct quite a lot about
how Jews in that period were thinking.
And of course that's controversial too.
But we can see a big picture, within which then the way
Paul is going after things—makes sense if you say
take somebody in that world, who is also
very much alive to the Greek & Roman context.
But who then happens to believe that
GOD has fulfilled HIS promises
by sending a Messiah, who was then crucified.
That's bizzare.
But the sense Paul makes of it, is the sense that
it would make within that Jewish world. [6:53]
Justin Brierley: And just before we come to Tom Holland here,
that was going to be my next question.
Will people reading this book simply know a lot more
about Paul by the end of it, or will it give us a
better picture of JESUS?
The person, he was obviously speaking of.
Tom Wright: I’m not sure it would necessarily give you
a better picture of JESUS, but it would give you a
better picture of how the very first
followers of JESUS were wrestling with
the question:
What does it mean that GOD's Messiah
was crucified & raised from the dead?
You know that's not part of the game plan, but if that's
what we've got: How does that reconfigure everything?
Obviously I & many others have written quite a lot
about JESUS as well. That's another story.
But so it's probing back & I mean for me, I just go on
being fascinated by the fact that within I would say:
"20 or so years after the crucifixion,"
here is a highly intelligent man saying
he loved me & gave himself for me.
You know that is extraordinary! [7:42]
It's hard to imagine anybody saying that,
about anybody else in the last 20 years (right).
Unless all sorts of other things were true as well.
And yet Paul says it [7:53]
Justin Brierley: Tom Holland, thank you for joining us
on the program today. We've thrown you in at the deep end.
Tom Holland: You really have.
Justin Brierley: Well thank you for putting yourself in the,
you know, the opposite chair. As I say, this isn't,
sometimes this program is combative, I have a feeling
that won't be the case today.
It'll very much be a meeting of the minds.
But tell us where your interest in the whole Classical Age
really began. You've sort of been doing this all of your
adult working life, haven't you? [8:24]
Tom Holland: Well it goes right the way back to childhood
& I was the kind of child who loved dinosaurs & I liked
them because they were big & they were fierce &
they were glamourous. And they were extinct, &
my interest, I suppose, was really in the Roman army
then by extension the Roman empire.
Well it kind of was a seamless movement from
Tyrannosaurus Rex to Caesar.
And so the kind of the glamour & beauty & the power,
& the cruelty of the Greeks & the Romans,
I found very appealing. [8:58]
The contrast to that, although I went to Sunday School &
I was very interested in biblical history as well.
I found them all a bit poor-faced.
Kind of I didn't like their beards,
I preferred the clean-shaven look of Apollo.
And in a way I was kind of seduced by the glamour (yes)
of Greece & Rome, I suppose. [9:20]
So the first books I wrote about of history
were about Greece & Rome, & in many ways
—you know the appeal particularly I think of
Rome is that in certain ways they do seem very
like as you were talking about Cicero's letters
This is a man who, you know, is:
● worrying about property prices,
● he's worrying about the weather,
● he's complaining apparently (people),
yes in all kinds of ways, he seems very familiar. [9:46]
But the more you live in the minds of the Romans, &
I think even more the Greeks, the more alien they
come to seem. [9:53]
And the more frightening they come to seem.
What becomes most frightening really
is a kind of quality of callousness,
that I think is terrifying because I think
it is completely taken for granted.
There's a kind of innocent quality
about it; nobody really questions it.
Justin Brierley: And what sort of form would that take? [10:13]
Tom Holland: Well if you know, within the age of Cicero,
you know Cicero's great contemporary Ceasar is by some
accounts slaughtering a million Gauls & enslaving
another million, in the cause of boosting his political career.
And far from feeling in any way embarrassed about this,
he's kind of promoting it & say when he holds his triumph:
People are going through the streets of Rome carrying
billboards boasting about how many people he's killed.
This is a really terrifyingly alien world
& the more you look at it, the more you realize
that it is built on systematic exploitations.
So the entire economy is founded on slave labour (right),
the sexual economy is founded on the absolute right of
free Roman males to have sex with anyone that they
want in any way that they like.
And in almost every way this is a world that is
unspeakably cruel to our way of thinking.
And so this worried me more & more, & it was kind of like,
I was thinking...well you know:
I'm clearly not as I had vaguely imagined,
the era of the Greeks & the Romans in
any way really.
And so where am I coming from?
It was like a kind of itch, you know,
on your back & you can't find it.
Then this was enhanced for me, by then writing a book
about the late antiquity & the emergence of Islam
from the late religious conflict that caught the religious
& imperial context of late antiquity [11:42]
And again finding in Islam, a profound
quality of the alien, that you know there
were aspects that were familiar, but
there were many aspects of it that
again seemed deeply deeply alien.
And I began to realize that actually:
in almost every way I am Christian.
I began to realize that actually Paul, although in many
ways he seems a much less familiar figure than Cicero,
in the kind of urbane man with his property problems.
Paul never had any property [12:11],
he just made tents.
In almost every what is it? Seven letters?
Conventionally that people absolutely accepted, & as
Tom Wright was saying this is not a very lengthy
amount of writing.
But compacted into this very small amount
of writing, was almost everything that
explains the modern world [12:39]
JB: Well the Western world as we take for granted, yeah.
Tom Holland: Yes but also the way that the West has
then moved on to shape.
You know concepts, like international law for instance.
So the facts that, the concepts of human rights,
all these kind of things.. Ultimately they don't go
back to Greek philosophers, they don't go back to
Roman empiricism
>> They go back to Paul & his letters [13:02]
And I think are along with the 4 GOSPELS the most influential,
the most impactful, the most revolutionary writings that have
emerged from the ancient world.
JB: When you penned that article for the New Statesman,
where you said, what I got wrong & you sort of came out
as it were & said, "as far as my values & background
are concerned I am a Christian." (yeah)
It was interesting to see the response to that.
Because I saw lots of atheists & humanists saying,
"Oh hang-on, you know we democracy goes
back to the Greeks, don't pretend that
Christianity gave us everything
we're grateful for.”
But you honestly think that actually
people simply haven't appreciated just
how much we owe to Christianity? [13:51]
Tom Holland: Well I think that, I mean if we're talking
of Paul, I think of him as a kind of depth charge,
deep beneath the foundations of the classical world. [13:59]
And it's not anything that you particularly
notice if you're in Corinth or Alexandria.
Then you start feeling this kind of rippling outwards [14:10]
By the time you get to the 11th century, in Latin Christendom
everything has changed. And you have this guy, essentially
what is Paul's significance is that:
He sets up ripple effects of revolution
throughout Western history [14:28]
So the 11th century where with the Papacy Revolution,
essentially establishes this idea that
Society has to be reborn/reconfigured.
And the vested interests has to be torn down, & then the
Reformation, is a further ripple effect of that [14:47]
The Enlightenment is a further ripple effect of that.
Tom Wright: Very interesting.
Tom Holland: You know it's spilled out so much that now,
in the 21st century, we don't even realize where these
ripple effects are coming from.
We just take them for granted. [14:58]
JB: I can hear Tom Wright, you want to come in on this..
Tom Wright: Well I was just thinking
I haven't actually read from cover to cover, but
Steven Pinker's two books where he's saying effectively
JB: Well I had him on the show recently.
Tom Wright: Oh really? Okay he's saying, “Forget all that
religion stuff, we invented the real world as it should be
in the Enlightenment, & all we have to do is apply it
more & more rigorously.
And just kick that religion stuff into touch.”
And it's very interesting that some commentators have said,
"Well if that was going to be the case, it would work
in America better than anywhere else & look at America
& you'll see that it doesn't.”
But I think I want to respond with what Pope Benedict
said 10 years ago when he was speaking at the
United Nations, when he said:
The whole idea of human rights is absolutely
rooted in the Judaeo-Christian tradition, & if you
try & get the fruits of that without the roots,
all you'll get is the thing will collapse..
into shrill special-interest rhetoric.
Everyone claiming the status of victim analogous
when I had these, which is exactly where we are.
[15:39-15:54]
Tom Holland: But the power of victimhood (yeah yeah) is
again something that is part of the Revolutionary
inheritance of Christianity—because that is
the point of the crucifixion.
Tom Wright: Yes & nobody in Caesar's world would have
said, “Oh I'm a victim therefore I've got to be prioritized.”
Tom Holland: Cause that'd be a scandal. [16:10]
JB: We actually had Steven Pinker in the very chair you’re
sitting on (right now) Tom Wright.
His response to this argument which at this point was
being put by Nick Spencer, who's written a very good
book as well on the evolution of the West making this
very odd move.
His argument was,
"No, Christians may have given us some
good principles. But all we need to recognize
is our universal humanity—that we're part of
the same species, we're all sentient. [16:31]
That gives us every grounding we need for treating each
other with dignity & human rights [16:37]
Tom Wright: And who thought like that in the 1st century?
I mean Paul talking about Adam & CHRIST basically. [16:39]
JB: So are you saying that kind of a belief simply can’t
emerge in a vacuum in a sense?
Tom Wright: Yeah the idea of universal humanists is
something that even in the 18th century they struggled with.
You know when missionaries went to America & came
back arguing about whether the American Indians
had souls or not?!
Were they really the same species as us?
And then John Wesley & George Whitfield
& so on saying,
"No these people have to be
taught to love GOD like any of us.
And so there's stuff going on there, which
is again rooted in human rights.
JB: And you’re part of the push back on this (Tom Holland)?
Tom Holland: In a way it seems to me that the most influence,
the single most influential phrase for why we have a notion
of a kind of common humanity is in Galatians where:
Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek,
neither slave nor free, neither male nor female."
And it's there you have this idea that we are
(of course he goes on to say: "in CHRIST JESUS")
And that for the contemporary world is...(we just).
[17:12-17:45]
Tom Wright: That's what people want to do without.
Tom Holland: But of course there is an issue there, as
Daniel Boyarin, a faceted Jewish scholar writing about
Paul says,
"So Jewishness & Greekness gets dissolved into
this universal humanity, but:
What if I as a Jew want to stay a Jew?
And so in a sense, there also you have the kind of
you know: The issues that continue to obsess our society,
which is essentially—
if you don't want to be part of a kind of
universal commonality—what then do you do?
Tom Wright: The dangerous thing, I was at a conference,
in America a couple years ago. Two-three years ago,
based on the big book on Paul, & there was an
African-American Theologian woman at Fuller Seminary
who basically pushed back on me on this & said:
"The danger is when you say we're
all one in CHRIST JESUS, what that
means is that everyone else is an
honourary white male, & the white males
have got it. And that everyone else has to say,
"OK, we're sort of part of your team as it were."
[18:17-18:40]
And I said, If that's what you're hearing, that's certainly
not what I was intending; & certainly not what
Paul was intending either.
And I know Danny Boyarin, we've had this debate,
it's great fun. Because I think what we're seeing there is
very interesting cultural moment, on the cusp of modernity
& post-modernity.
And David Horrell in Exeter, his book on Paul
'Solidarity & Difference" says it all:
That on the one hand, we've got this cutlural drive
towards we're all part of this together.
It's what's going on in the European debate, at the moment.
(Yes) Solidarity, we're all just part of this nice big family
& that's how it all works in economy of scale, & so on.
And then lots of people, including in Scotland,
where I now live.
Saying, "No that's squelching our identity, &
we're not going to let you do it.
And the interesting thing is that Paul in 1 Corinthians,
is faced with the same issues:
How do you navigate past this theologically
where you're simultaneously saying:
"We've all got to be one family;
& then you're saying, but if
your conscience means that
this is where you are at the moment
here's how we'll live with that &
how we have to respect that.
And he's basically wrestling with the big issues that
we're wrestling with as well.
Doing so very sophisticatedly. [19:45]
JB: Let's come to some of his specific story, because
you do a fabulous job in the opening chapters of the book,
in setting the scene of:
● Who Paul was,
● What we can know about his background,
● the sort of Judaism that he came from.
And for me, one of the fascinating bits was you kind of
speculating on what he might have been thinking
about when he was on that famous road to Damascus.
Because I thought that was quite interesting, you know
what was occupying Paul's mind—at the moment
when that famous event occurred.
Do you just want to walk us through that?
Because I think this is probably the most famous
conversion in all of history, in a way. [20:23]
Tom Wright: Yes if conversion is the right word. [lol]
But right off the top the danger with saying conversion is
that what that word means in our world:
If I say so-and-so has just got converted,
the chances are this means that so-and-so
was probably an atheist or an agnostic; &
they have now found some sort of faith.
And one would hope it might be for me,
my new Christian faith.
That's not really at all what's going on for Paul; & it's
certainly not about swapping from one religion to another.
That's the layers of misunderstanding there, in terms of
what the word religion meant in the ancient world
—in terms of what the word religion means in our world.
Neither of those fit what's happening to Paul. [21:01]
Paul always had believed in the GOD of
Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob—the CREATOR GOD,
he never for a moment stopped believing in GOD.
He was living in a narrative which said,
"All those ancient promises have got
to come true, GOD's got to show that
HE's in the right.
That HE meant what HE said, & that HE's going to
renew the whole world.
Quite possibly, not all Jews believed this
through a Messiah—who will come & do justice &
re-establish the Temple in Jerusalem, so that GOD
will come back & live there gloriously et cetra. [21:27]
So Paul is living with that narrative, & in particular
within that, & you see this in the later Rabbis, but
it's clearly there in Maccabees as well.
There are two figures in the ancient world, Jewish world,
who Paul is identifying with: [1] Elijah & [2] Phineas.
They're the great messengers of zeal.
If you like, bad things are happening,
we've got to do some sacred violence,
to stamp out the nonsense & get Israel
back on track [21:52]
And Paul is role-modeling Phineas & Elijah, and the texts
which embody their stories are clearly present.
JB: And he was very much part of this movement
that wanted to keep the law better, yeah, so that
we hasten on this event through will. [22:07]
Tom Wright: And let's be quite clear, this is not as
used to be said in Protestant rhetoric about:
Earning my ticket to Heaven, or
doing enough good works so that
GOD will be pleased with me.
It's GOD wants to
renew & restore this world,
& for the sake of that
HE's called Israel out
to be a special people,
as HIS holy people.
And so it's for the sake of GOD's purposes
they have to do this, & make more & more Jews
do this stuff. [22:28]
So here's this bunch you are letting slide down;
& going off after a crucified Messiah,
who ever heard such nonsense? [22:34]
So Paul is off to do the Phineas thing, the Elijah thing
These are like the new prophets of Baal, & we know
what we have to do with them. [22:40]
And then if you're in that mode, how do you pray?
We know from everything Paul says, he was a person
suffused with prayer & there are standard Jewish prayers.
And it's a guess, but I'm not the only one to make this
guess that on the road to Damascus,
he was meditating like many people
in his tradition did on the throne chariot
in the beginning of the Book of Ezekiel,
where the Prophet sees the whirling wheels & then the
chariot, & then his eye is raised up & he sees the
figure sitting on the throne & he falls down
(crash as though dead).
And then the Prophet is commissioned et cetera. [23:15]
I think Paul was meditating on the Throne Chariot.
Longing to get a glimpse of the GOD
he'd worshipped all his life, & I think
he gets to that glimpse & it's
JESUS of Nazareth.
And simultaneously,
all his life is fulfilled
& all his life is shattered.
And that is just the most devastating &
the most fulfilling moment. [23:35-39]
And in a sense he spends the rest of his life
working out what that means, & encouraging
other people to explore with him.
What I wouldn't want to say is forcing them to do
& believe that because you can't force people
to do & believe that kind of stuff.
But helping them to share the sense that JESUS
really is Israel's Messiah. [23:58]
JB: Lots of people have given different explanations for
what happened to Paul, psychological, some epileptic fit
maybe who knows.
Where do you go as a historian Tom Holland, with this,
obviously very significant event that I think you'd agree
there's some historical basis to it that something
happened on the road to Damascus. [24:17]
What do you think happened there in your view?
Tom Holland: I think in the broadest context, Paul is
negotiating a tension that is inherent within the
understanding of the GOD of Israel.
Because HE is on the one hand the GOD of Israel, &
HE is on the other hand the Creator of the entire world.
So how do you negotiate that tension? (Yes)
And in the globalizing world of the Roman Empire, which
many Jews lived. This becomes a particularly pressing
issue. So to what extent is GOD the Creator of the Greeks,
Romans, & the Egyptians, & whoever else..
This is somewhere & anywhere kind of question. [24:58]
That you know we were talking about earlier;
that we still have today (human rights issues)..
And I would suspect Paul is struggling to negotiate that
as a Greek speaking Pharisee.
>> What persuades him to think the things that he does?
I think it’s profoundly mysterious! [25:19]
And I have no doubt that he did think that:
He had seen JESUS. I mean I can’t think of any other reason
that would explain why he does what he does.
I mean it’s mysterious in 2 ways really:
1.] He chucks over what presumably would have been
a very comfortable career, to essentially embark on
a life as a kind of wandering bum, where he’s going
to face repeated beatings, ultimately face death.
2.] The other is why it would ever cross his mind?
That in some way a crucified criminal is a part of
the ONE GOD of Israel?!
And the strange thing about all his letters is that although
he’s arguing repeatedly for his understanding of who
JESUS is & HE should be understood, & how HE should
be comprehended..
I mean I may be corrected on this, but I don’t think at any
point does he feel the need to actually argue that JESUS
is in some way a part of GOD.
I mean this is just taken for granted; &
everyone seems to understand this. [26:27]
Tom Wright: You’re absolutely right, it used to be so. And
when you had Larry Hurtado on the show, you presumably
discussed these kinds of things.
It used to be thought that JESUS only was regarded as fully
divine much later, like the end of the first generation or even
early second century. And only at the end of the NT period.
And I think now most NT scholars are convinced (actually)
this is on the table from the beginning. It’s certainly taken
for granted in Galatians, which I think is Paul’s earliest
blessing [26:49]
Tom Holland: Yes, & the strangeness of that is something that
we perhaps are kind of immune to, because it’s in the BIBLE,
so you read it.
But you think though, why would he think this??
Why would anyone thing this?! [27:01]
JB: Yeah in this context, it is a very strange thing for a devout
Jew to have thought.
Tom Holland: But I would guess, & I can’t remember whether
you say this in your book because I read it a couple years ago,
when in proof.
But having had presumably this kind of convulsive experience,
presumably then he turns to SCRIPTURE to try & work out
what’s happened. (JB: Yeah to try & process)
In essentially he reads through all the passages; & kind of
constructs this theology. [27:33]
Tom Wright: I think one of the thins we fail to realize, often
in modern Western Christianity—never mind the secular world
—is the stories that people had in their heads about what
GOD was going to do.
And particularly the end of the Book of Ezekiel hugely important,
7 parallels in Isaiah 40 & 52 particularly are GOD’s promised
that HE will one day come back visibly in person. [27:53]
Isaiah 40:1-31 | “Comfort, comfort MY people,”
says your GOD. “Speak tenderly to Jerusalem,
& proclaim to her that her forced labor has been
completed; her iniquity has been pardoned.
For she has received from the hand of the LORD
double for all her sins.” A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our GOD in the desert.
Every valley shall be lifted up,
& every mountain & hill made low;
the uneven ground will become smooth,
& the rugged land a plain.
And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
& all humanity together will see it.
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
A voice says, “Cry out!” And I asked,
“What should I cry out?”
“All flesh is like grass, & all its glory like the
flowers of the field. The grass withers & the
lowers fall when the breath of the LORD blows
on them; indeed, the people are grass.
The grass withers & the flowers fall, but the
WORD of our GOD stands forever.” Go up on
a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news.
Raise your voice loudly, O Jerusalem, herald
of good news. Lift it up, do not be afraid!
Say to the cities of Judah, “Here is your GOD!”
Behold, the LORD GOD comes with might, &
HIS arm establishes HIS rule. HIS reward is
with HIM, & HIS recompense accompanies HIM.
HE tends HIS flock like a shepherd; HE gathers
the lambs in HIS arms & carries them close to
HIS heart. HE gently leads the nursing ewes.
Who has measured the waters in the hollow
of his hand, or marked off the heavens with the
span of his hand?
Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket,
or weighed the mountains on a scale & the
hills with a balance?
Who has directed the SPIRIT of the LORD,
or informed HIM as HIS counselor?
Whom did HE consult to enlighten HIM,
& who taught HIM the paths of justice?
Who imparted knowledge to HIM & showed HIM
the way of understanding?
Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;
they are considered a speck of dust on the scales;
HE lifts up the islands like fine dust.
Lebanon is not sufficient for fuel, nor its animals
enough for a burnt offering.
All the nations are as nothing before HIM;
HE regards them as nothingness & emptiness.
To whom will you liken GOD?
To what image will you compare HIM?
To an idol that a craftsman casts & a metalworker
overlays with gold & fits with silver chains?
To one bereft of an offering who chooses wood
that will not rot, who seeks a skilled craftsman to
set up an idol that will not topple?
Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been declared to you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the foundation
of the earth? HE sits enthroned above the circle of
the earth; its dwellers are like grasshoppers.
HE stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
& spreads them out like a tent to live in.
HE brings the princes to nothing & makes the rulers
of the earth meaningless. No sooner are they
planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner
have their stems taken root in the ground,
than HE blows on them & they wither, & a
whirlwind sweeps them away like stubble.
“To whom will you compare ME,
or who is MY equal?” asks the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high:
Who created all these?
HE leads forth the starry host by number;
HE calls each one by name.
Because of HIS great power & mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.
Why do you say, O Jacob, & why do you assert,
O Israel, “My way is hidden from the LORD,
& my claim is ignored by my GOD”?
Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting GOD,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
HE never grows faint or weary;
HIS understanding is beyond searching out.
HE gives power to the faint & increases the
strength of the weak. Even youths may faint &
grow weary, & young men stumble & fall.
But those who wait upon the LORD will renew
their strength; they will mount up with wings like
eagles; they will run & not grow weary,
they will walk & not faint.
To dwell in the Temple, to rescue HIS people,
to do what has to be done et cetera, etc.
And those promises are kind of shimmering in the background;
& some people in the Jewish world like the author of the book
called Ben Sira, or Ecclesiasticus—seems to think that this
sort of has happened because wisdom has come to dwell in
the Temple in the form of the teaching of the Torah.
Now most Jews in Paul’s day, I don’t think believed that.
[28:13] They still taught there was something major
yet to happen.
And it is as though with Paul & indeed with the GOSPELS,
it isn’t just that they are telling JESUS stories; & somehow
saying btw there’s another dimension to this.
They are telling the story which is Israel’s
story about GOD coming back, but the only
way they can tell it is by talking about JESUS.
So it’s not just a JESUS story with a GOD dimension, it’s actually
the GOD story with the JESUS focus. [28:39]
And it’s hard for us to realize that because the last 200 years,
philosophically & theologically, we haven’t been there.
So when I look at how Paul is handling Isaiah, how he’s handling
the passages about the new Exodus with the pillar of cloud & fire
coming. Only now it’s JESUS & the SPIRIT.
You see he’s drawing on Jewish traditions about the
Presence & saving power of GOD.
And then of course they all get focused not least on that
middle chunk of Isaiah—where you get the so called
suffering servant.
And the suffering servant seems to be GOD saying
actually when you look to see what it’s like
when I come back to rescue you:
Oh my! It’s going to be like this; &
we see Jewish exegesis at the time
struggling with Isaiah 53.
● Some of them thinking, it’s a Messiah, but actually
the suffering is what HE inflicts on other people
● And other people thinking: “No it’s real suffering
but it’s the martyrs, it’s not the Messiah.”
And JESUS, then Paul picking this up
—seemed to have fused these two together.
with this extraordinary notion of a suffering Messiah. [29:40]
Who turns out to be the personal embodiment of Israel’s GOD.
And then we see this already, by early on in Paul woven into
fresh prayings of Central Jewish prayers the famous one in
1 Corinthians 8, where it’s hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD
the LORD is one, & Paul astonishingly finds JESUS inside
that, so he says for us there is one GOD the FATHER from
whom are all things we to HIM & one LORD JESUS the
Messiah through whom are all things. [30:14]
1 Corinthians 8:4-6 | So about eating food sacrificed
to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the
world, & that there is no GOD but one.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in
heaven or on earth [as there are many so-called
gods & lords], yet for us there is but one GOD,
the FATHER, from whom all things came & for
whom we exist. And there is but one LORD,
JESUS CHRIST, through whom all things came
& through whom we exist.
So you’ve got he’s the Oscar, he’s curious, but it’s GOD & JESUS.
At the heart of Jewish monotheism Paul finds this bifurcation.
JB: And in a sense that is a massive transformation, but
at the same time somehow—for Paul it is a fulfillment.
Tom Wright: It’s a final revelation because he then obviously
looks back & says “Whoa! we now read the SCRIPTURES
with this in mind. [30:38]
HE is the image of the invisible GOD, so when
humans were made in GOD’s image—
HE is the image in whom we were made.
JB: And just how strange would this idea of a GOD who—
or a Messiah or whatever, who becomes crucified have been
in the Roman world that this message was being delivered?
Tom Holland: Beyond weird, it’d be totally beyond weird.
As Paul repeatedly says, I mean, he says that you know
“it’s foolishness, scandalous, outrageous, it’s ridiculous, &
he’s aware of this the whole time [30:58-31:12]
JB: Just how embarrassing this is in a sense.
Tom Holland: Well it is kind of I mean & that is the whole point
that (yeah) to suffer death on a cross is [31:20]
It’s the worst death that the Roman state can inflict, but it is
also shaming in the context of the Mosaic law which also
says that to be hung on a tree as a cause of (a curse).
JB: We often forget with our stylized depictions of the crucifixion
just how gory & shameful it was.
Tom Holland: Yes, absolutely & so what is happening is that
it’s like a kind of the ultimate judo throw—where you turn the
strength of your opponent against them.
The Roman power is affirmed by brutality, the governor of a
Province has the right to burn, to throw to beasts, to crucify
anyone who he feels is a danger to Roman power. [32:05]
And governors did that absolutely at the drop of a hat.
So what is happening with Paul’s proclamation of the one
GOD in some way suffering this fate is to absolutely upend
the very fabric & basis—not just of Roman power, but of
powerful stock because of course the Assumption through
from reading the Jewish SCRIPTURES was that GOD
is a warrior & GOD will overthrow Roman power.
The establishment of a kingdom of peace will in some way
be effected by the sword & what Paul is saying is that
actually the true source of power is to suffer.
And that notion, you know, that to be a victim can somehow
be a source of power is unbelievably subversive in the context
of classical antiquity. [32:56-33:05]
JB: And it’s still today to some extent, but I mean you know
it’s not as though we all believe that today.
Tom Holland: Although you see it all the time in the news
at the moment—that to cast yourself as a victim is somehow
to give yourself power. And you would only have power by
virtue of being a victim if you existed in the context of a
society that was still in its fundamentals Christian.
In the Roman world if you said I’m a victim, they’d say:
“Yeah, and...?? I’ll enslave you!” (lol) [33:27]
Tom Wright: Exactly thanks very much.
Tom Holland: Or I’ll rape you whatever.
JB: And on top of this there was also this statement, which
I think was being used in quite a political way of saying,
“JESUS is LORD” which was obvious.
Set against the idea that well, “No Caesar is lord.”
Tom Holland: If we think of Paul arriving in Galatia, it would
seem that in some way that the Galatians feel that they have a
particular relationship to the figure of Augustus. [33:58]
So they transcribe the ray’s guessed by his account of his
achievements. And it seems to have been done to a far
greater degree than anywhere else in the Roman Empire.
So they are inscribing this idea of Augustus, who describes
himself as (divi filius) son of god, son of Caesar but you know
he’s been raised up to the heavens.
He has been a prince of peace, he has established a universal
amnesty across the world & this is uangei leon, this is good news
to be proclaimed. [34:35]
But the statues of Augustus, the Res Gestae of Augustus, the
very essence of Augustus is that the peace that he has brought
has been brought by a sword.
He is an imperato, he is a general who is victorious.
This is what an emperor is, &so in the cities that Paul is
arriving at, this cult of Caesar—which is the fastest growing
cult, probably in history up until that point, you know it’s spread
like wildfire & it’s not a kind of frigid cult.
It’s a cult that people across the Roman world, invest in with a
deep emotional sense. This idea of a conquering human, who is
‘divine’ & who has risen from the earth & “gone to the heavens.”
Augustus is the epitome of earthly power (of his day).
And so in that context, the subversion that Paul is affecting
by turning up & saying actually the SON of GOD that I preach
is someone who was crucified by Roman power.
I mean you, it’s kind of makes you wince.
JB: But why did it work then? Why did anyone listen to such a
crazy message? [35:52]
Tom Wright: That’s a great question, I just want to endorse
everything that Tom said, I think it is one of the most extraordinary
turnarounds in history that the symbolism of crucifixion said:
“we run this world, & if you get in our way, we’ll rub you out.”
And that is callous brutal power.
Then to have within 20 years, the crucifixion as a symbol of all
conquering self giving love, that’s just quite extraordinary.
And as you said, we in the modern Christian world see crucifixes
we have them, we wear them, you know..as jewelry decoration,
or nice pretty things in Churches.
But actually this was like an electric chair
or a horrible gallows or something.
So why did it work?
I think if we’d have asked Paul that, he would have said because
when you announce the crucified JESUS as LORD, there is a
strange power, which he sometimes calls the GOSPEL or
other times calls the SPIRIT.
And that power goes to work in people’s minds & hearts.
And stuff happens, they find themselves gripped & grasped
by it; & I think Paul would have said there is no logical explanation.
Of course, there is no one who actually wants to sign off this.
But it’s everything that Tom Holland was saying just now was
reminding me of Mark 8, where JESUS says,
“We’re going to Jerusalem & it’s all going to happen;
& if you want to come after ME, you’ve got to be
prepared to die. Take up your cross as well.” [37:06]
I think they thought it was a metaphor.
But in fact, JESUS really meant it.
Then in Mark 10 when HE says (when James & John want
to sit int the best seats, to be HIS right & left-hand men)
& HE said:
“Don’t you realize the rulers of the nations bully people,
& harassed & lauded. We’re not going to do it that way;
we’re going to do it the other way.
Anyone who wants to be great
must be your servant.
Because the SON of MAN did not come to be served,
but to serve & to give HIS life as a ransom for many.
JESUS HIMSELF is precisely articulating
the redefinition of power with
the cross at the center of that.
Paul picks up from that, & says what he’d actually want to say:
[1] On the cross JESUS did in fact defeat the principalities,
& powers. He says that in 2 or 3 passages. HE disarms
the powers & made a public example.
Of course it didn’t look like that.
This is the theological interpretation in the light of the
resurrection. But then when you’ve got that interpretation,
you can go to work & say [38:04]
“Now actually JESUS crucified is the
fulcrum around which world history
turns & ppl find that it’s true for them"
JB: I mean this brings us to that interesting tension, that you
sit in a sense as both a believer & a historian of the
SCRIPTURES, Tom Wright. [38:16-38:31]
Because in a sense you’re saying the explanation Paul would
have given is that something supernatural happened.
This GOSPEL changed people, or are you? (lol)
And are you allowed to as a historian to say it? [38:39]
Tom Wright: It will be interesting to see what happens when
Tom Holland gets past Galileo & onto the 18th & 19th century.
Because this word supernatural has changed its meaning (OK)
the word supernatural in the Middle Ages as far as I understand
—meant a super abundance of godness over on top of, but not
excluding what goes on, so it’s what normally goes on plus some
extra dimensions.
But from the 18th century onwards, something very interesting
happened culturally & the ancient philosophy called Epicureanism
really became the dominant philosophy of the west. [39:09]
Epicureanism is a system of philosophy based on the
teachings of Epicurus, founded around 307 B.C.
It teaches that the greatest good is to seek modest pleasures
in order to attain a state of tranquility, freedom from fear
("ataraxia") and absence from bodily pain ("aponia").
And with Epicureanism the gods & our world are totally sepparate.
They’re made of the same stuff, they’re made of atoms, but they
have nothing to do with us—so supernatural means something
out there, as opposed to something down here. [39:23]
Then Christians trying to make sense of the faith within a basically
epicurean world, think of GOD quote intervening—so you either
have natural events or supernatural events [providence of GOD]
And I resist that dichotomy, I think it’s a product of agency.
JB: And this is of course, if you want more on this,
“the Gifford lectures” that you gave this year. [39:38]
Tom Wright: Thank you, yes.
Tom Holland: Brilliantly done [lol]
Tom Wright: That’s very nice, but unfortunately it’s gonna take a
little while before they get published. Because I’ve got some work
to do, but they are available online.
Yeah YouTube, goodness.
But the point is this, that we still in our culture & I think I say this
in on of the Givens actually. The only real question that the great
British public knows theologically:
“Does GOD intervene in the world or doesn’t HE?”
Which is why a journalist faced with the new archbishop says:
“Do you believe in the virgin birth & resurrection?”
In other words, “Are you going to be one of those embarrassing
fundamentalists, who says you believe it all? Or are you going to
be one of those equally dodgy liberals, who says you disbelieve
it all?” [40:21]
It’s a horrible dilemma.
And I’m going to say: “Wrong question”
For me as a historian, the more I know about hisotry, the more
I think yeah all sorts of odd things happen in the world.
And the idea that everything is just a closed continuum is a
very particular philosophical thing.
So I want to have it both ways actually. [40:41]
JB: How do you approach this, because we can talk about
metaphysical commitments on your part Tom Holland.
But at the end of the day, someone like you’re sitting opposite
Tom Wright. Obviously, does believe the BIBLE to be both a
historical document that we can both agree on.
You can pull apart & dissect & look at.
But it’s also a source of divine revelation at some level. [41:02]
Tom Holland: [missed initial opening, JB talked over TH]
...Rather as a kind of Darwinian rite, in the sense that I assume
Christianity triumphs, or you know achieves what it achieves.
Because it gives something that people want (yes)
They haven’t previously been given, so there’s a
social survival of the fittest.
It’s evident, most famously, from St. Paul’s stay in Athens that
there is in a sense a marketplace for gods in antiquity.
So if you think of Paul arriving in Galatia,
the Galatian gods are famously horrible. [41:38]
There’s one god that supposedly goes around punching women
in the breasts; & you think this is not kind or particularly pleasant.
The other deity in Galatia is Keyblade, who sits on a mighty
mountain & in the ecstasy of their worship, men will castrate
themselves in her honour [41:59]
And Paul kind of makes a grim joke about this, saying if his
opponents: I wish that they would castrate gods.
(Tom Wright: cut the whole lot of them)
So these are a kind of intimidating gods, these are gods
who certainly don’t love you.
Maybe you’re a philosopher & you look at the god of Aristotle,
you had to love this fixed mover, but there’s no implication
at all that it loved you back.
JB: And if it was a relationship, it was quite transactional.
(yeah) it was to keep them happy, & then we can get on
with our lives? [42:30]
Tom Holland: And that is also true of D.V. Phileas Augustus.
You know this is also a kind of transactional relationship, we
were worshiping & then please don’t come & kill us.
[Tom Wright: yeah]
Now so in that context, the GOD of the Jews, “you know, it
provokes a lot of mockery, a lot of kind of contempt” [42:47]
But also a fair degree of envy.
Because actually I think it’s pretty clear, that there are lots
of people (in the Greco-Roman world) who were quite jealous
of this idea of a GOD who loves the Jews. [42:58]
And who particularly cares for them.
And who would like to be a FATHER; & so you have these kind
of liminal figures who you know (they’re Gentiles) but they
kind of would like to have a part of this kind of Jewish vibe.
In anthropology, liminality (from the Latin word līmen,
meaning "a threshold") is the quality of ambiguity or
disorientation that occurs in the middle stage of a
rite of passage, when participants no longer hold their
pre-ritual status but have not yet begun the transition
to the status they will hold when the rite is complete.
And in that context Paul turning up & saying:
You don’t have to give up all, you don’t have to be circumcised.
And this GOD loves you, as HE loves me! [43:22]
JB: I can see why that would have been attractive.
Tom Holland: I think you can absolutely see why that
would have been attractive (right).
And I think that clearly this does cut through to people
who are relatively prosperous & Paul mentions them
in his letters. [43:35]
Women as well as men who can provide him with funding
& with backing. But it must also have given (I mean what)
the impact it must have had on slaves. [43:49]
To be told, that you are one with the free.
To be told, you know, a slave in Rome (in a household of
a Christian) to be told you are a child of GOD.
At the time when Nero is absolutely in his pomp, &
Nero is kind of dramatizing what it is to be a 'son of'
(you know) the ‘son of a god’...
In the Augustan sense, to an astonishingly historic degree.
For a slave in the attic, in the suburbs of Rome, to be told
(I mean) it must have been overwhelming. [44:22]
Tom Wright: Also for women, it’s a point that Rodney Stark
makes in his book “The Rise of Christianity” & I think it needs
to be drawn out particularly in today’s culture [44:30]
But the valuing of women, there is no fe/male in Galatians 3,
that is almost unthinkable in a post Aristotle world—where
wo/men are almost differnt species.
And you know who’s in charge here..
Then when you see the way that Paul treats his female
co-workers in the way that..when he writes this extraordinary
letter called Romans.
One of the most amazing pieces of writing in the ancient world.
He entrusted to Phoebe, who is a deacon in the Church in
Kencreo. She takes it to Rome. [45:01]
I mean to know Tom Holland’s take on this, but my understanding
is when you give a letter to somebody to take to somebody
(or to a group); she is likely to be the person who reads it out
& quite possibly explains it [45:12]
May be the first to..
JB: There is another brilliant book, that I’m sure you’re aware of
by Paula Gouda, on this very subject.
Her novelization of Phoebe’s..
Tom Wright: I know of that.
I’m very proud of Paula, she’s a former student of mine; &
I’m looking forward to reading that book, yes. [45:25]
JB: A different, actually, interlocutor—that was a
Francesca Stavrakopoulou
(Tom Holland: Ohh she doesn’t like Paul)
JB: Well she likes Paula, & funnily enough Francesca
was a student of Paula’s (Tom Wright: right, lol, okay)
so yes its the world of books.
Tom Wright: I’m very much interested & would like to press
this further, because I do totally agree that this idea that
you can all be one. [45:49]
There is a new community, & you are loved & valued.
I was thinking about this in relation to forgiveness,
the other day. The ancient gods didn’t forgive people.
I mean Zeus & Poseidon code, you might be able to placate
them, or you might be able to sneak around when they
weren’t watching [46:04]
But the idea that they would forgive you..is quite different.
I don’t think you’d find that in the Greco-Roman world. [46:10]
And people didn’t as far as I know reckon that they were
going around needing forgiveness in that sense. [46:16]
JB: But I’m still confused at one level, as to..
I mean I accept this thesis that the reason it caught on was
because it allowed slaves to suddenly feel like they were
people who maybe wanted in on this. [46:30]
But at the same time, you make it very clear in teh book
[Tom Wirght] just how socially inconvenient it was to
be a Christian. [TW: It’s massively so]
It’s like this is a way to climb the ladder. [46:39]
Tom Wright: I mean no, absolutely not.
This is part of the problem all the way through, in the first
Thessalonians—Paul was looking back to the time when they
became believers just a few weeks earlier.
He says: “You turned from idols to serve the living & true GOD.
Now it’s hard for us to imagine what that’s like, but an ancient
city like Thessalonica or Corinth or Ephesus, or any where..
You’ve got idol temples, or temples on every street corner.
You’ve got processions & you’ve got games in honour of the
lord god so-and-so; particularly lord Caesar, [47:00-47:08]
You’ve got celebrations, regular festivals, & regular holidays,
& everyone shows up.
people areregularly coming through the streets with sacrificial
animals, it’s what you do.
And in a world where there is no such thing as private life,
except for the very very rich—everybody knows if you
suddenly aren’t showing up..
“You know that family down the street, they haven’t
been to anything this last month—what’s going on?”
“Oh haven’t you hard they’ve joined this funny new
group,...(Well who are they?) They say they’re Jews,
but they’re not—so we don’t know who they are..”
And so suddenly, you’re not doing all the things that
people in your world would normally do..[47:35-47:40]
JB: You liken it, in the modern world, as simple as say
going into Wall Street & sort of saying:
“Right we have got to abandon all of these financial
institutions..& the way we run our lives.” [47:48]
Tom Wright: Or you know, I sometimes say to people
when they ask why didn’t Paul say: Slavery was wrong?
I say, “Well, when did you last go into the pulpit on a Sunday
morning & say, “BTW it’s quite clear that motorcars are
polluting our planet & destroying our world, so I want you
to leave your cars in the parking lot & we’ll have them take
them to the dump later on. Because we’re all going to be
either walking or on horseback from now on.” [48:06]
Most congregations would not think that was a very good
sermon, but actually when you’re talking about a major
social revolution—you’re just not going to be doing those
processions anymore. [48:17]
This is why in southern Greece, they get permission to
shelter under the Jewish (law) because the Jews had
permission not to do that stuff.
And this is where a lot of the hassle comes from.
Because then when suddenly there’s a bunch of non-Jews
claiming the same permission—the authorities want to
know who are...?
Then they’ll go around to the Jewish communities:
Who are these people?
JB: Then they sense things getting out of control.
Tom Wright: I think this is the best explanation for a lot
that’s going on in Galatians particularly & I’m very interested
in Tom Holland’s insight. [48:45]
Tom Holland: Well I’ve got a slightly edgier comparison
(JB: OK go on) any comparison between the 21st century
& the 1st century is obviously you know, they’re so different.
But if you think about the spread of radical Islam,
if you think about the way people worry about their family
members becoming radicalized.
I think might have some faint echo of how it’s working.
And we were talking about Paul’s use of letters—the
reason that he can communicate across the Roman world
is because there is an enormous road system.
Which is being used by Caesar & by governors to
communicate (JB: “their gospel”), yeah.
So it’s the kind of ganglion that’s connecting the fabric of the
mighty brain of Rome. [48:55-49:31]
And Paul is kind of piggybacking on that rather in the way
that Islamic radicals are piggybacking on the internet.
Which was originally developed by the American Defense
establishment.
JB: The internet is our Roman Road Systems of today?
Tom Holland: Yeah, & so it’s using technology & infrastructure
of a superpower, to come up with things that are profoundly
opposed to it.
And in a sense part of the appeal of radical Islam, is precisely
that it is subversive of almost everything that people in secular
society take for granted. [50:05]
I’m not saying that Paul is with...I’m not comparing Paul to
a kind of ISIS.
JB: Sure, I understand the principle you’re employing.
Tom Holland: But part of that, people say,
“Why would anyone run off to Syria?”
And you know, sign-up to this terrifying cult?
In a sense, it’s precisely the challenge of it
—that becomes the appeal. [50:28]
And Paul talks a lot about the SPIRIT bringing freedom;
& that idea of being free in a world where everyone
else is not free—gives you a kind of dignity & status that
in the long run will enable people to suffer torture & even
death in the cause of affirming that. [50:55]
And to this extent, I think that Paul & the
early Christians are the ancestors of ISIS.
And are the ancestors of almost every group that defines
themselves in terms of belief.
Because they’re willing to suffer martyrdom for belief.
You don’t really get—I mean you know there’s Socrates—is
kind of an example...
But the idea that you as a slave—you’re willing to suffer death
for a belief that is really something that originates from Paul.
Tom Wright: Obviously there are parallels, & it’s very
interesting to explore those; & they go back of course to
the pre-Christian Jewish radical zealots.
As in the Maccabean period who were perepared to die
for their hope that GOD was going to renew the world [51:47]
And you see that in the book called 2nd Maccabees,
particularly..
The Second Book of Maccabees, also known as
2 Maccabees, is a deuterocanonical book originally in Greek
which focuses on the Maccabean Revolt against
Antiochus IV Epiphanes & concludes with the defeat of the
Seleucid Empire general Nicanor in 161 BC by
Judas Maccabeus, the hero of the hard work.
Tom Holland: I mean that’s also about kind of defending
land. That’s always something there. [51:55]
Tom Wright: Defending land, re-establishing the temple,
et cetra, etc. etc. sure. Yes, but what we see in Paul
is the taking of that radical ttradition which is also a
violent tradition.
I mean some of them are martyred, but some of them
are going to sharpen their swords & win an
extraordinary battle.
In the 2nd century AD, you see this with the Bar Kokhba Revolt
in 132-135, we have a brief little messianic kingdom of Judea.
The Bar Kokhba revolt was a rebellion of the Jews of the
Roman province of Judea, led by Simon bar Kokhba,
against the Roman Empire. Fought circa 132–136 AD,
it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so
it is also known as The Third Jewish–Roman War or
The Third Jewish Revolt.
Under the rule of this man, the son of the star, & they are
going to have (they think) an astonishing victory over the
Romans. So that continues on...[52:26]
What you see in Paul has all of that energy, but
turned upside down—exactly as what Tom Hollands was
saying before through the notion of the crucifixion &
resurrection of JESUS. [52:37]
That this is a different kind of victory,
won by a different kind of means.
And we see if there is a sense in which Paul is the ancestor
of ISIS, then Paul is also the ancestor of St. Francis & of
Mother Theresa.
And to the people who are saying,
“No there is a different way to
transform the world & it is the
the way of love, it is the way
of self-giving.” [52:57]
And the ancestor of people like Desmond Tutu, who you
know we forget that in the 70s, Desmond Tutu was standing
in-front of crowds of angry people (his own people) who
wanted to use violence & he was saying that is not the way
we transformed the world. [53:11]
And astonishingly, that message got through & won the day.
Though, South Africa is still difficult—but there is a message
of love & forgiveness. [53:20]
Tom Holland: Well I hesitate to bring up the subject of
Paul & the LORD in the presence of Tom Wright. [53:26]
I mean it’s a hubristic thing to do, but Paul is clearly also
(I think) the ancestor of the modern notions of
international law that ISIS is committed to overthrowing.
Because what Paul introduces in to the bloodstream of
the West; & then by extension because the West spreads
those ideas across the world.
The entire kind of global framework of how international law
is structured, is the idea that:
GOD’s law can be written on the heart.
That you no longer need the Torah, the SPIRIT will write it
on the heart & therefore you will know what is right.
And that will be illumined.
What that gives in the long run, the West is a notion that
law can be human & can be morally valid.
And that’s the great contrast with the Islamic world
—where law is in a sense (the Torah & Talmud)
you know Sharia is about the idea of GOD having
directly revealed a kind of legal rulings. [54:36]
Tom Wright: Which is imposed on people
whether they like it or not. (Yes)
Tom Holland: Whereas in the West the idea that law can
be something that is of human origin is absolutely taken
for granted.
And this is kind of the great gripe that Islamic radicals
have with international law; it’s precisely that they
recognize it’s Christian origins. [54:53-54:59]
So there’s a guy (Al Makdessi), a Palestinian Jordanian
radical, who was hugely influential intellectually on ISIS
& Al Qaeda.
And he destests Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia
is part of the United Nations; & he’s saying:
“Well the charter of the UN is of human origins”
>> It is not of divine origin.
So essentially his argument is with the Pauline idea that..
Tom Wright: That is fascinating & it goes (I mean)
obviously that’s an ancient Jewish idea..[55:27]
(The 10 Commandments).
The writing of the law on the heart is in Jeremiah
& Ezekiel—& it fits with this whole idea that basically
Pauline Christianity is to coin an odd phrase:
Judaism for the masses.
I mean Nietzsche said it was Platonism for the masses.
That’s absolutely wrong, it s in the 19th century many
Christians were Platonists & that’s a problem.
But the idea that this Jewish insight about a loving GOD
who will inscribe the law in the hearts of HIS people; &
now this could happen to anyone!? [55:51]
Tom Holland: Just as liberalism is Christianity for the masses.
Tom Wright: In a sense, up to a point lord copper. (lol)
Let’s not go there.
But then what we get with that is with Paul this extraordinary
thing which (when I was writing this book) it impinged on
me again that:
What we already see when there’s a rumour
that there’s going to be a famine coming the
Church in Antioch instantly, instead of stockpiling
food, they said we’ve got to help them down in
Jerusalem. [56:16]
And you have a sense of a trans local community, as well
as a trans-ethnic community in a way which I think is
unprecedented in ancient world.
The Jewish communities, the synagogue communities
were trans local, they were across the world.
They sort of knew about one another.
And were in touch with one anther, but it was basically
Jews & proselytes, or GOD-fearers or whoever.
And there were trans local communities of the
Roman Imperial administration & the Roman army.
But that was all jolly well, loyal to Caesar,
thank you very much. [56:47]
What you have in Christianity is a community, which Paul
insists is one. It’s a united community, & has to struggle
for that unity.
And that is precisely the origin of the UN.
That’s a Christian Pauline idea.
The problem is if you try to get it
without the roots, in an explicit belief
in this particular GOD who has rescued
the world in this particular way...
Well you can see, go to the UN today.
You can whistle for it. [57:13]
Because it’s falling apart. Because we’ve
tried to get it without the basis.
JB: Gonna have to leave it there. I wish we had more time,
but thank you so much gentlemen.
Both Tom Holland & Tom Wright for joining me on the program
today. And Tom Holland we want you back when your book
is available; & we’ll get you in another interesting discussion
about it.
Tom Wright, looking forward (we’ve got alittle bit of a plan
in the pipeline), for a regular podcast with you.
So watch this space if you’re a Tom Wright fan.
You might be able to get more conversations like this
coming to you, in the future. But for the moment thank
you both for being with me on Unbelievable.
Tom Holland: Thank you.
Tom Wright: It’s been a pleasure.
Unbelievable Christian Radio | Jul 20, 2018
Video: youtube.com/watch?v=nlf_ULB26cU
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