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peachyqueenly · 11 months

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Cookie Run, Queerbait, and why the concept does not apply to SeaMoon... 2!!!

//This is a repost of an older post, as something else came up that I wanted to add to this analysis. If you don't want to reread the entire thing, feel free to skip to the section headed with 'Queerbait: Lost in Translation'.//

There are a lot of issues with the way Devsis, the developers behind Cookie Run, handle diversity in their games. Most notably, it falls into the common trap many, MANY gacha games do in that it partakes in a lot of orientalist tropes. But one debate I’ve seen that I just cannot get behind, as a lesbian, is the idea that they have queerbaited-- most namely, with SeaMoon.

Below the cut, I will explain why: what queerbait is and what it looks like, queerbaiting vs coding, and why comparing WlW tropes from other countries to queerbaiting is unfair (and also maybe don’t apply a Japanese literary concept to a Korean game, more on that later). All in a bid to show why it is not only wrong to compare SeaMoon to queerbaiting, it is harmful.

SeaMoon, for those unfamiliar, is the name popularly given to the ship between Sea Fairy Cookie and Moonlight Cookie in Cookie Run. Aside from the ocean and the moon being a common motif for romance in fiction already, the game had hinted at their romance in a lot of in-game and side material. Most namely, Sea Fairy’s line about Moonlight’s heart ‘being the warmest’ and the “I want you Everyday” music video with their moment together + the lines that went along with that moment...

Your love brought spring to my endless winter...

For more examples of where their romance was suggested, I recommend this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPJU8yBYD8Ng7lhh_lR0bA2XRwmJTtbRceGuKahFxFs/edit

The point is, most WlW in this fandom caught onto the romantic ramifications of the ship long before Moonlight was expanded on in Kingdom and the recent updates all but confirmed their mutual affection towards one another. The two of them even got matching costumes and a bond story that was as close to romance as Cookie Run would do (as it is ultimately not a romance centered franchise).

With who they are established...

Queerbait: What is it?

Queerbaiting most popularly is understood as a marketing gimmick where creators and multimedia companies suggest queerness to draw in LGBT people and allies, only for the rug to be pulled out from underneath fans. Though it has other meanings, especially in other cultures as I'll explain more below. Whether this is utilizing the ‘bury your gays’ trope, the rep being constrained to insignificant side characters/moments, or just not existing at all.

The two most popular examples of queerbaiting would be recent Disney movies and Voltron. Though special shoutout to Harry Potter, as if we didn’t have enough reasons to hate the book series and JKR. As the stuff with Dumbledore was an obvious retcon to go ‘look how progressive I am!!!’.

Voltron’s last season had two key things regarding queerbait: the Klance drama (the ship between Keith and Lance) and Shiro’s bait and switch with his partner.

To the show’s credit, Shiro was actually gay. Even revealed to have had a partner he was engaged to. However, this rug was pulled out from underneath fans when they actively killed said partner. He was given another partner in the epilogue, but the fact he was revealed to be gay only for his partner to be killed off (coupled with the next thing) upset many queer fans.

Klance is a lot more insidious. In the run up to the final season, Netflix and the crew actively promoted the show using Klance and its popular support. Despite the fact they knew the relationship was never intended to be canon. This is one of the most explicit examples of queerbaiting out there, and is foundational to understanding the specificity and insidiousness of the marketing ploy.

For Disney, I would like to focus on the Star Wars sequels and Beauty and the Beast (2017). The last movie of the sequel trilogy had the creators talking about how there would be queer rep... leading many queer fans to believe they were talking about Finn and Poe for obvious reasons, something the creators never corrected/confirmed. Only for the rep to merely be two background characters in one scene.

As for Beauty and the Beast, Le Fou was celebrated as Disney’s first openly gay character, leading folks to believe they’d explore him having feelings for the titular bad guy. But that was never really explored in any meaningful way, and the rep we got of him was a ‘blink and you’ll miss it’ moment between him and an unnamed character. Arguably he could fall more into coding, but the fact Disney actively marketed him for his gayness is where it bleeds into queerbaiting.

In general, queerbaiting is a more modern problem, as companies feel they can say the word gay now. But are still wishy-washy on actual depictions of queerness. So we get them celebrating their inclusion, even if it’s ultimately little to nothing.

Queerbaiting vs Queer Coding

This is when an important distinction needs to be made: what is queerbaiting and what is queer coding. Queer coding is when media uses subtext, but never explicitly says, a character is gay. A good way to understand this is to compare 90′s disney movies to modern ones.

As discussed above, modern Disney will often go on about having queerness in their movies only for it to be minimal at best if not existent. 90′s Disney meanwhile never marketed their movies as having LGBT elements, but many fans could see the way in which queerness came through from characters like Ursula (literally modeled off a drag queen), Scar, and Hades.

Queer coding can be seen as a product of the Hays Code era-- where positive depictions of ‘perverse sexuality’ (including homosexuality) was not allowed in film, relegating a lot of queerness to the roles of villains (hence the association Disney villains have with it). That, or queer creators had to find ways of coding their heroes in ways that went under the nose of cishet audiences.

Queer coding exists in a net-neutral space. As queer coding, while in many ways is outdated in a world where media can show explicit LGBT rep, was integral to the ways in which queer creators told their stories for years. And actively influences the way many queer creators continue to tell their story (for better and for worse). It can also perpetrate stereotypes against queer people, as we saw with the Disney villains, however.

Still, this is different than the relatively modern concept of queerbaiting as that is largely a negative phenomenon. Queer coding was a tool used and is still used by actual LGBT people, while queerbaiting is more often than not the work of cishet folks or corporations wanting to make a quick buck.

Queerbait: Lost in Translation

Another element of queerbait I did not previously address is how its more commonly understood in the context of cultures' media (such as in Eastern countries like Korea and Japan). As the financial reasoning behind the idea isn't as front and center (for a myriad of complicated reasons regarding how explicit queer rep can be from country to country). Though this definition of queerbait can also apply to US and English based media.

To some, queerbait also applies to coded LGBT relationships that are primarily centered on or meant to appeal to straight audiences (WlW rep meant for the male gaze, MlM rep meant for girls).

In other words, fetishized LGBT coding.

I would personally argue (as a queer non binary lesbian) that this meaning is less insidious than the money making logic behind modern queer baiting that happens in the US mainly, but its for an important reason...

A lot of this queerbait relies on elements of coding still. While the way many Western viewers see queerbait in American media relies on using explicit queerness as a marketing ploy. To compare, let's look at idol/sports anime and the previously mentioned Disney movies.

The idea that idol/sports anime is queerbait is... contentious. And one I'm not entirely sure I even agree on. But it is undeniable that some of its more WlW centric scenes appeal to the male audiences that view these shows or games. Still, nothing is ever made explicit. It utilizes elements of queer coding originating from the yuri/gl genre that was built up by queer people themselves.

To some, this may be more insulting. For me personally though coding has always been a net neutral, and this form of coding is just more on the negative end for me. Still, there is something there for queer people to take away.

Meanwhile, the way in which disney queerbaits its audience is by saying their character is LGBT then... doing nothing with it. Not even elements of coding. Just-- 'yep there's a gay character in our movie come watch it'!!! Its a lot more soulless compared to the previous one, and therefore to me is more insulting.

Why SeaMoon falls more into Coding

With the two elements defined, let’s explain why SeaMoon falls more into the realm of coding rather than baiting.

First off, the way the devs write romance is consistent with how they wrote SeaMoon. Most of the ways in which things were left vague before Kingdom could be explained in the devs unfortunate habit of not elaborating on things they really should elaborate on. On top of romance in general being coded rather than explicit in the franchise.

As an example, lets discuss the two closest things to M/F romance we have in the franchise-- PureLily (Pure Vanilla and White Lily) and MintCocoa (Mint Choco and Cocoa).

PureLily became more explicit in the same update as SeaMoon (with Pure Vanilla wondering aloud if he still loves her), but in general the way their relationship was shown before the Crunchy Dreams event was largely through subtext (how the two spoke of one another, PV’s garden, etc) and outside material (the love quiz).

This also applies to MintCocoa. During the days of OB, the game itself did not elaborate much on either of the two’s characters (just as they didn’t with Moonlight). With most of their romantic subtext (like SeaMoon) being in outside videos, media, and merch. Kingdom in general seems more willing to elaborate on romance, as we saw in the story that came with Cocoa’s release.

And secondly, the devs never really threw SeaMoon around as a way of saying ‘look how progressive we are’ or to appeal specifically to LGBT fans. Anytime SeaMoon was included in media, it was often alongside other coded relationships such as MintCocoa or things like RaspRose (Raspberry Mousse x Rose). And even the times they did do things like promote themselves during pride month, they never used SeaMoon. Instead they used the Hollyberry kingdom (due to its bg having same-gender couples dancing and having drinks together).

The way SeaMoon was treated up until the recent Kingdom update was more in line with queer coding rather than queer baiting. Which is NOT perfect, as media should go beyond coding in the modern age. But it is not as bad or as insidious as queerbaiting implies.

Not as insidious as either definition of queerbait; as nothing about the relationship between them is really centered on being for the male or fetishized gaze either. They're Cookies... in a series where romance is not a focus. While one could argue their romance is stuck more into the background compared to say MintCocoa and PureLily, it still isn't designed to be fetishized (in canon, what fandoms do with SeaMoon and other LGBT ships is its own matter).

Extra Note on S Class Comparisons

S Class is a trope in Japanese media where two girls will often have a very close bond, akin to romance. However, it is ultimately still platonic and disappears upon either graduation from school or marriage. It is over 100 years old, with some of the first pieces of the genre being in the early 1900′s. And was a major influence on the yuri, more commonly called GL now, genre.

Before anything else, I want to offer a brief aside that maybe we should be careful when comparing a Japanese literary trope to a Korean game. Comparing the two countries can be a very... very touchy subject matter. Especially in the context of this being a genre that rose in popularity during the colonization of Korea by Japan.

I do NOT think you can compare SeaMoon or anything in CR to S Class tropes. But I will discuss it just to clear things up, as I find comparing the trope to queerbaiting problematic.

It is more akin to queer coding rather than queer baiting. Why? Many of the authors who utilized the trope were queer themselves. In fact, “Obuko Yoshiya, a lesbian Japanese novelist active in the Bluestocking feminist movement, is regarded as a pioneer of Class S literature”. Again, a key factor that separates coding and baiting (being that queer creators will often code but won’t bait).

The genre is at its worst stifling and harmful to the modern day GL genre in Japanese literature, and extremely heteronormative. But to compare it to things like queerbaiting or to entirely dismiss it as a form of WlW rep in the context of how it was used by actual queer people in Japan is entirely unfair to the genre; queer rep does not look the same in every country.

S Class also evades the way in which queerbait can mean being meant for the male gaze, as it is a trope whose origins lie earnestly in media meant for girls. That does not mean it can't be used to appeal to the male gaze, but it is not where it started.

Ending Notes

Are the devs perfect in their representation of SeaMoon and WlW? Of course not, there is a valid conversation to be had on how queer relationships constantly being merely coded rather than explicit is annoying and hurtful. And more and more queer people have this critique of the concept of queer coding. On a personal level, I can forgive it in this specific case cause its in line with how the devs do romance in general. But if it bothers you that it was merely coded for the longest time rather than explicit, that’s entirely valid.

But the idea the devs ever queerbaited audiences is unfair and actively makes many WlW feel invalidated in how they easily saw the coding present in the two’s relationship. Again, queer coding is a net neutral phenomenon while queerbaiting is mostly negative. To subscribe such a notion to what is important rep to so many WlW is hurtful.

Sources

https://www.animefeminist.com/escape-yuri-hell-flip-flappers-critique-class-s-genre/

https://bookriot.com/what-is-queerbaiting-vs-queer-coding/

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPJU8yBYD8Ng7lhh_lR0bA2XRwmJTtbRceGuKahFxFs/edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_S_(genre)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queerbaiting#:~:text=Queerbaiting%20is%20a%20marketing%20technique,romance%20or%20other%20LGBTQ%2B%20representation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_coding#:~:text=Queer%20coding%20is%20the%20subtextual,character%20in%20media%20as%20queer.

#cookie run #cookie run kingdom #crk #sea fairy cookie #moonlight cookie #seamoon #media analysis #lgbt writing #lgbt #queer coding #queerbaiting #crob #cookie run ovenbreak

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highladyluck · 1 year

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Would you be so kind as to write a quick little "why you should/shouldn't read" for the Vorkosigan saga? Doesn't have to be specific, but it sounds like you're having a lot of fun over there and I want a reason to join in on another unreasonably long and convoluted-sounding book series. Also it sounds like you're ready to gush about it at a moment's notice

Ooooh, with pleasure! The Vorkosigan saga is a collection of short stories, novellas, and novels written across 30+ years by Lois McMaster Bujold, focused on Miles, the disabled scion of one of the most politically powerful (and progressive) feudal lords of the 3-planet Barraryan empire. Barrayar was a colony planet settled by a couple ethnic/cultural groups from earth (I’ve spotted Russian, French, & Greek and I think there’s a 4th) and they ended up left to their own devices until around 200 years ago when they were discovered by the rest of galactic society (other human colonies).

They have a cultural trauma around genetic mutations due to being atomic-bombed by a neighboring empire about 4 generations ago, and Miles’s life is shaped by the attendant prejudices around this. He isn’t actually mutated but he looks like he is, due to teratogenic damage from an attempted political assassination (chemical weapons + fetus = very short kid with brittle bones & chronic pain). He copes by being extremely desperate to prove himself, and is consequently pretty reckless with his physical body & mental health, but he’s protective of people he is responsible for & puts a very high price on personal integrity. (Reminds me of Rand and Mat, of course.)

There’s some ‘progressive for the 90s’ terminology/attitudes about queer people that are dated at best and wincingly off-base at worst, but that’s really the only complaint I have, and I think that has begun getting better as I go along. (I have similar issues with RJ.) It’s a series very much concerned with the politics of reproduction, in a way that still feels rare in science fiction. The implications of the technology of the uterine replicator on power, gender, sexuality, morality, and culture are explored. Worth noting is that the books also have some heavy torture scenes and occasionally deal with sexual assault. I think it is handled well & is not gratuitous but it’s definitely content warning territory.

The honor-based-checks-and-balances feudal structure of Barrayar is contrasted with various realistically flawed democracies (Komarr tends towards ogliarchy & the Beta colonies are a partially-automated semi-luxurious gay space socialist democracy), the other empire (Cetaganda is like the Byzantine empire if it was built on mad science eugenics), and various other interesting government models (Jackson’s Whole aka the libertarian goblin market, the Quaddie’s ascended engineer’s union, etc). The feudal structure is an exciting place to have the conversations about women’s labor (literally and figuratively), personal expectations, and societal responsibility that Bujold is interested in, because the personal and the political are so dramatically and obviously intertwined there.

In addition to the themes & setting, I’m enjoying it at least partially for the excellent structure of the stories; Bujold never forgets to hang up Chekov’s gun in the first act, but it’s always sneaky so it’s fun to try to spot it. Miles and his entourage are also a delight. These characters try their best, and make realistic mistakes, and are understandable even when you don’t agree with them. I also enjoy how the antagonistic cultures are fleshed out with nuance, much like how RJ introduces the Aiel and the Seanchan as faceless, inhuman enemies and then complicated things by giving them faces & human motivations. (In this analogy, Barrayar is Aiel and Cetaganda is Seanchan.)

For reading order, here’s some tips: https://bookriot.com/vorkosigan-saga-reading-order/

#vorkosigan saga #the vorkosigan saga #wheel of time #wot book spoilers #answered ask #using the RJ comparisons because I’m a WoT blog and so are you #also I like it for a lot of the same reasons I like WoT

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bohemian-nights · 4 months

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Someone on twitter pointed out that Netflix gets some portion of profits from the books because of the show-adjacent book covers (or vice versa?) which is why they absolutely will not and cannot change Michael to Michaela. Whether or not that's true (the profits thing) it's honestly a good point regardless. The book sales are bolstered by the show and the show gets Netflix more subscribers. Aside from the fact that Michael is the fan favorite male lead from the books too, it'd be impossible to sell WHWW by genderbending him into a woman because the book isn't queer. Michael and Francesca's story relies on the fact he's a man. Now one can argue that, for the show, they can switch things of inheritance by making it so John and Fran already have a son when he dies so there can be a happy queer ending since inheritance of estate would no longer be a problem, just the guilt. But in that case the entire story still ends up different, there's absolutely no conflict and, again, there's no correlation to the most popular Bridgerton series book either. They would be fools to change that. They won't be able to market the book adjacent to the show and they'd have a lot of people from one of the most popular sides of the fandom pissed off. Also didn't JQ say they're not gonna be changing any of the love interests? Idk but genderbending IS changing. If we go by the casting call that the woman they cast is going to be in a leading role next season and we suppose this is Michaela, Francesca's story being next also makes no logical sense because even tho it's guaranteed Bton—being Netflix's cash cow—will end up renewed after S4, they spend A LOT of money on this show and need to prove its worth the investment. Benedict is a fan favorite. He's for sure the next story especially because Cinderella as a story is popular with the masses too. It'll garner massive amounts of views for both those reasons. As opposed to Francesca, who viewers are just getting to know and most are even confused about (seen a lot of "where did she come from" comments), and if they make her love story queer then even less people of the core target demographics (casual viewers, not fans, altho they'll be isolating fans too) who watch Bridgerton will watch it. Unfortunate, but it's a fact. Changing Michael to Michaela and making Fran's season next would be a surefire way to tank views right before they're up again for another renewal evaluation and a surefire way to lose a lot of the readers who pick up the books that generate profit. They won't do that. Even by pure sense of logic: Masali is Sophie.

Yeah even if they just put Francesva the title of the book is literally When He Was Wicked. As someone who has read both WHWW and AOFAG(lol they were the first Bridgerton books I read) it makes about as much sense to genederbend Michael as it does Sophie aka it makes 0 sense.

It’s not like racebending because race isn't important. However gender dynamics are very much in play. Michael and Sophies genders are integral to the story. Michael becomes the earl because he’s John’s closet male relative. He has a lot of guilt surround that. They are cousins, but they grew up as brothers so inheriting an earldom that is John’s causes a lot of inner turmoil.

Francesca has fertility issues. When John dies she’s pregnant with his baby, but she loses that baby. She’s desperate to be a mother which is one of the things that makes her reconsider marriage, and after struggling some more with her fertility she eventually has children with Michael.

You take those plots away and you’re creating a whole story where the issue is overcoming homophobia rather than the actual plot.

That’s what these people don’t get and that’s why it’s not making any sense. The very essence of WHWW would be gone.

You can't genderbend Michael without creating a whole OC story and while Shonda can be stupid she isn't that stupid. Plus I can guarantee if that happened the show will be canceled after that mess airs.

And yes that casting call states that the one cast is next seasons lead. If people genuinely believe Francesca is next and they are pushing back Benedict again for a season that will do even worse than Polin’s🤣

#bnasks #bnask #🐝 show asks

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alarrytale · 1 year

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You know the interesting thing is, he’s already welcomed with open arms into the queer community! The fans haven’t been explicitly told, no, but everyone in the industry already knows. I’ve looked (yes I’m bored lol) and so many of the people who work with tay also follow G. Actors from rwrb, the director, his stylist, etc etc…they ALL follow G. Other people who tay is friends with in the industry follow G. So what is the point in hiding it now? He’s only hiding it from the fans, no one else. So looking at it that way, I don’t think he’s being private for his career. Back when KB came out I heard he hid things to appear single and straight so girls could be delulu (which is kinda sick honestly). But he’s literally in a gay movie now so I don’t see the point anymore lol. Plus since then he has posted G and hasn’t deleted sooo. Maybe it is just what you said the other day. It’s just to protect the hubby. I’m thinking that is probably it. I still wish he’d post about him more and be more open/out to the fans. Garrett can still keep his socials private.

Tzp should just put his ring back on. That’s all he’d have to do. Why the hell wouldn’t he? Protecting his husband isn’t a good answer because the dude could still remain private. It’s disappointing to me. I get why he took it off for kissing booth (though I don’t agree with it) but now there’s zero reason. :(

Hi, the both of you!

Tzp have played several queer roles before rwrb and before kb. He's also played straight before. Maybe he wants that option still, to play both straight and queer. Maybe he's bi/pan and was attracted to rwrb because of the story of a bi man falling for a man part mirrors his own life. If he was to come out as married to a man, people would or could forget that he's bi/pan. He'd maybe lose out on straight roles. That might be important to him as a bi/pan man. Maybe he also would lose out on straight roles as a gay man, but that wouldn't be as hard to deal with as if he was bi/pan. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Putting on his wedding ring again would jeopardise his chance of playing straight roles. He is by definition a hearthtrob (said so himself) and he could be marketed as that if he were bi/pan (even as a single gay man). But not if he is married, then he's off the market and both straight and queers would have a hard time projecting their fantasies onto him.

I also think they are very aware that tzp and nick are being shipped. Both as alex and henry, and nick and tzp. Just look at the fan service we've gotten. Being married would also ruin that fantasy a bit. Nick and tzp aren’t their characters, but still. I don't think they want the hype around rwrb to die down yet, by tzp going 'oh btw, i'm married to another man, have been for years. All the great chemistry between henry and alex, and nick and i is great and all, but i have a hubby at home'. The fandom would be like a deflating balloon.

I think it will be interesting to see what tzp does next in his career. It might be very telling. I also think it's going to be interesting to observe the fandom.

#tzp #not 1d #long post #of sorts #happy sunday!

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antiloreolympus · 2 years

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10 Anti LO Asks

(Note: All of these asks are before episode 206 (Season 2 finale) so some may be dated.) 1. do RS defenders realize the issue is in the fact that, despite being a woman who claims to be a progressive feminist marketing herself to be making a progressive, feminist "reclaiming" of mythology, her work and actions being indistinguishable from awful male writers is?? really bad?? the "if the roles were reversed" argument is to point out her and her work is really no different from the same misogynistic, bigoted men and their stories that she and her fans claim she and LO are better then.

2. The thing is an age gap isn't the actual issue, the issue is the fact Persephone was made A TEENAGER who looks/acts even younger and even in comic it was found gross, THAT's why people were and still are grossed out by it and find Rachel's insistences "subverting it" questionable at best, and an outright lie at worse. This especially is more pointed with the timeskip, because Persephone still looks/acts the same as she did at 19, so it just makes you wonder WHY Rachel made her 19 to begin with.

3. Ok but it IS important to point out how the double standards within LO and RS and especially the fact she is a rich white woman who wants the praise of being progressive and feminist yet her actual actions and story do not show that. We also have to point this out because of how she and her fans weaponize this to say any legitimate criticism is merely "hating women", over the fact she DOES promote and do harmful things other creators (like queer and BIPOC creators) dont get to "grow" from

4. I'm sorry if this comes across as racist. That is not my intention. I hate the human skin colors Rachel Smythe uses. They look unnatural. Like paper grocery bags or potato wedges from KFC.

5. If 10 years passed, shouldn't Dionysus already be born? Semele died? I feel like RS forgot about a whole Olympian God. 🤨

6. I'm reading the comments on Rachel's insta, with the fast pass showing the pink nymth, and the comments speak volumes. Everyone's questioning if it's another lover, or someone is trying to seduce Hades, or Kronos is possessing him (??), Some fans even talk about getting anxiety/blood pressure spikes. Wow... It's almost as if a trama bonded relationship isn't stable. It's almost as if Hades has been unfaithful to past lovers. As if there's a pattern here that makes the readers want to blame the nymth (who has NO voice lines yet, btw. Their attacking her for putting her hand out (smug) and showing side boob (telling her to cover up? That's ironic)) rather than Hades himself. You know. The other person in their relationship. And don't even tell me they're not official yet, I'm tired of beating around the bush, Persephone is literally the queen of the underworld.

7. Do LO fans know that flipping out over even potential other women in Hades' life, despite the fact the whole selling point is knowing Hades and Persephone ends up together, only gives the impression they're not confident in their relationship to begin with? Like yall know they end up together, there's absolutely no reason to flip out at the inclusion of a random woman other than they knowingly or not think the couple is too weak too stand on their own (also misogyny but that's a different convo)

8. Not to be a nerd or anything, but I think LO completely mixed up Kronos and Chronos. The former is the titan of harvest and leader of said titans, while the latter is the personification of time. Similar names, but distinctly separate entities.

-----SA Discussion Below-----

9. Yeah it's hard to say RS is a staunch supporter of SA victims and takes the topic seriously/handles it with care when she made Arion and the result of his birth a child support "joke" when the actual mythology is Demeter being violently r*ped. It's honestly disgusting the fans defend it as "just a joke' while claiming the series stands up for victims. No, it stands up for CERTAIN victims, the rest, what, "deserved" it? Especially Demeter because she's not their "precious cinnamon roll"?

10. The issue with the SA plot too is she uses it to push P towards Hades, but then also can’t just have them jump into bed because of the obvious barriers there from the assault, so she’s basically stuck in this bizarre juggling act where she wants to be praised as this “serious writer who tackles serious issues” yet does nothing because she just wants to draw them boning but can’t because she doesn’t know how to handle SA & its trauma without ignoring it outright, so she doesn’t tackle it anyway!

#anti lore olympus #anti lo #lore olympus critical #lo critical

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sapphosclown · 2 years

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i just finished watching wednesday on netflix and i wanna talk about it

spoilers ahead

first and foremost i would like to say i am not a fan of the addams family, i do not know pretty much anything about the lore or anything other than the basic stuff, goth family, morticia and gomez are in love, wednesday is spooky. i wanted to watch this show for two reasons, i wanted to see more of the addams family and i think jenna ortega is pretty.

now that thats out of the way, i saw some people critiquing the family dynamics of the netflix show, saying the big thing about the addams family is that whilst being goth and morbid they love each other and the fact that was changed in the show really softened a blow for them. considering i haven’t seen past versions i don’t want ti comment too much on this. i will say tho, i think maybe giving wednesday mommy issues was cheap writing because i think a loving family dynamic would have made for more interesting characters. the switch up i can only imagine came into play because they needed a way to draw out the plot/leave wednesdays visions a mystery for longer.

speaking of cheap writing, i did find the show a bit corney from an outside perspective. i think the actors did a great job, especially jenna ortega, but the writing was meh and the plot was predictable, to me at least. that’s not to say it wasn’t enjoyable. i truly enjoyed my watch through and had a fun time watching and trying to put together the puzzle with wednesday. i will say i predicted that plot twist half way through the show purely because it seemed right there and i thought it would be funny. a lot of little moments i totally saw coming.

the plot itself wasn’t bad, persay, but i would’ve liked it to be different. the heavy focus on romance/the love triangle was not something i expected but i really should have to be honest. i didn’t have any expectations walking into the show so i can’t say definitively what i would’ve liked to see instead. again, an enjoyable watch if you’re just watching something for the hell of it but it didn’t feel like anything special to me, just another retold story of a beloved character.

the thing that distracted me maybe the most the whole time was the cgi of the hyde. literally what the fuck was that. why did it look so fucking goofy. i literally couldn’t even be stressed when it was on screen bc of how goofy it looked. ESPECIALLY when it showed tyler turning into the hype, damn near peed my pants. there’s no way they’re budget was that damn small that they couldn’t get some better special effects. like i can’t tell if it was supposed to be goofy as a style choice or if they just ran out of money for that part. i watched the entirety of First Kill (also on netflix) which had many reviews on the poor sfx and i truly think the hyde was worse than anything in that show.

on a little bit of a separate tangent but relating back to first kill, it’s a little frustrating that this show honestly was just as corney as first kill was but this one will probably get a second season but first kill won’t. whether it be the queer love story or it just simply isn’t as marketable as the addams family, it makes me sad.

i’m regards to the romance, i truly think from the bottom of my heart wednesday and enid should have gotten together. assuming there will be a season 2 i would still like to see them end up together. their hug at the end of episode 8 brought more emotion than any scene they had with their love interests. and i don’t want to say that platonic love can’t be portrayed like that, because i love platonic love and would be happy to see more of it. but id also be happy to see sapphic content, especially in something as recognizable and popular as the addams family. not to mention how queer themes already present themselves relevantly in the plot. this whole “outcasts vs normies” thing is a painfully obvious reflection on minority groups. wednesday being the odd one out even in her own strange family would be so well tied together in her also being queer. not to mention the blatant metaphor in the parents day episode about enid wolfing out and being afraid her family won’t accept her if she doesn’t fit their expectations. a sapphic love story between enid and wednesday would have enhanced the plot substantially and made it feel more fleshed out than a half assed love triangle with two white boys i can barley tell apart. i would take a focused story of these two girls falling for each other over the other one any day.

not to mention, wednesday did not really like tyler nor xavier. she only cared about herself and used them to get what she wanted/needed. and i love it for her! but why did they try to say she liked them! especially tyler! she had absolutely zero interest in him romantically. i honestly wanted to like it so bad but there was nothing between them to me. he clearly had feelings for her but she did not reciprocate them. on the other hand, i believe wednesday loves enid, if not proven by their hug. there was a solid chemistry between the two of them and while consistently shown in their em sections of the screen it was deliberate to me in a way i don’t think i can dissect right now having only watched once. but neither of their love interests had the chemistry they had with each other and i really wish they would’ve just gone with that story or head that direction next season.

i think i will probably watch the show again, i enjoyed it. i’ll enjoy reading analysis of it because i just love film analysis. i think the visuals were pretty (besides the hyde don’t even). and most of all jenna ortega’s take on wednesday addams was, in my lowly opinion, wonderfully executed, despite the writing and plot, i loved her and feel like she fit the part very well. watching her do her little dancey dance is mesmerizing and i’m in love with her.

i believe that’s all i have to say, i just had many many thoughts as i was watching and i really wanted to express them. thanks for reading if anyone did, this was a little nonsenish. i’d love to hear other opinions as well :)

#wednesday #wednesday netflix #wednesday addams #bonk thoughts

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indiaalphawhiskey · 2 years

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If Harry is stunting for his acting career then won't it go against him that the relationship isn't convincing to most people? We laugh about how he is doing the bare minimum but won't Hollywood look down on that? It's not making a good impression. Why isn't Ariana stunting for Wicked? She has as much to prove. Harry has also said that he has declined movie offers. If he's so desperate to make it, wouldn't he be taking on anything? Not a small indie gay movie like MP.

I’m going to answer this really quickly because I feel like your questions are an oversimplification of the situation.

1. Stunts have primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. goals. The primary goal of fauxmance stunting in Hollywood is usually visibility. It’s to keep Harry and Olivia’s names in the press, and top of mind, while we all wait for DWD, MP or whatever other projects they have. In this specific case, visibility is priority, because visibility translates to PR, tabloid articles, social media mentions, etc etc, which leads to buzz about Harry and Olivia as people and whatever projects they’re tied to. They don’t need to be convincing as a couple to obtain that visibility. In fact, one can argue, the less convincing they are as a couple, the more gossip it drags up, the more buzz they get online in fan spaces, tada! Hollywood achieves their goal. This stunt isn’t an audition, it’s not there to measure Harry’s acting skills.

2. Ariana is very publicly newly married. She can’t stunt. Moreover, Wicked is an adaptation of a Broadway Musical, Ariana has classical Broadway voice training, is known for her vocal range, and has made her fortune through singing. Ariana has also acted on TV before. She’s not a wildcard for this part and it wasn’t a gamble to cast her.

3. I didn’t say Harry was desperate to make it, I said Harry wants to break into Hollywood, and doesn’t have a lot of acting experience. Just because Harry is a novice doesn’t mean he has to take whatever is offered. Clearly he’s still approaching this expansion of his art strategically, as he has the right to do. But, knowing that he doesn’t have as much leverage as he would in music means that he likely has to be more flexible about negotiating. He has to be willing to do what it takes (outside of production) to bring in an audience, so studios can feel confident about taking a risk on someone with limited professional experience. That means he has to be open to participating in PR and Marketing gimmicks. Like fauxmances.

4. I really don’t think ‘fame’ is the backbone of the reason Harry wants to break into Hollywood. He has that in spades. I think Harry wants to go into acting because it’s another challenging avenue to be creative, and because he wants a chance to play out stories that mean something to him, which is, for me, the best reason to go into acting. So, I doubt he’s choosing his projects solely based on their predicted commercial success. Yes, I’m sure that’s a factor, because this is still a professional career, but I do think he’s making the effort to choose things based on his interest.

(Also, while My Policeman is a smaller queer indie film, it certainly seems to be getting a much better reputation than Warner Bros. super highly funded Hollywood Box Office baby Don’t Worry Darling so… 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️ seems like Harry’s instincts were on the money there, anyway.)

#iaw ask #iaw anonymous #stunt discussion

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thebibliosphere · 3 years

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So I'm currently unemployed because I got fired for taking too much sick leave (it was legally sketchy blah blah blah but in the end I just can't work and take care of myself and investigate my mystery health problems at the same time). So I've been spending more time writing!

I really admire your writing and loved Hunger Pangs. I'm looking forward to the poly elements developing and I'm wondering if you have any advice for writing about poly. I've made one of my projects a snarky take on "write what you know" ... Apparently what I know is southern gothic meets Pacific northwest gothic, chronic illness pandemic surrealism, and falling back-asswards into threesomes.

I know this is a very open-ended question and I don't expect an answer, I'm just curious about it if you have the energy. As a writer, trying to write honestly / realistically about polyamory/enm, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on what's different about portraying monogamy or nonmonogamy in books, romance or erotica or otherwise.

I'm trying to read examples but it's hard to find examples that fit the niche I'm looking at. Excuse me if this question is nonsense, it's the cluster headaches.

I'm sorry to hear you've been dealing with all that and solidarity on the cluster headaches. But I'm glad you're finding an outlet through writing! And I hope you're happy with an open-ended ramble in response because oh boy, there's a lot I could talk about and I could probably do a better job of answering this sort of thing with more specific questions, but let's see where we end up.

There's definitely a big difference between writing polyamory/ENM (ethical non-monogamy) and what people often expect from monogamous love stories.

Just even from a purely sales and marketing standpoint, the moment you write anything polyamorous (or even just straight up LGBTQIA+ without the ENM) you're going to get considered closer to being erotica/obscene than hetero romances. It's an unfair bias, but it's one that exists in our society. But also the Amazon algorithm and their shitty, shitty human censors. Especially the ones that work the weekends. (Talking to you, Carlos 🖕.)

So not only do you start out hyper-aware that you're writing something that is highly stigmatized or fetishized (at least I'm hyper-aware) but that you are also writing for a niche market that is starving for positive content because the content that exists is either limited, not what they want, or is problematic in some fashion i.e. highly stigmatized or fetishy. And even then, the wants, desires, and expectations of the community you're writing for are complex and wildly varied and hard to fit into an easy formula.

When writing monogamous love stories, there is a set expectation that’s really hard to fuck up once you know it. X person meets Y. Attraction happens, followed by some sort of minor conflict/resolution. Other plot may happen. A greater catalyst involving personal growth for both parties (hopefully) happens. Follow the equation to its ultimate resolution and achieve Happily Ever After.

But writing ENM is... a lot more difficult, if only because of the pure scope of possibilities. You could try to follow the same equation and shove three (or more) people into it, but it rarely works well. Usually because if you’re doing it right, you won’t have enough room in a single character arc to allow for enough growth, and if ENM requires anything in abundance, it’s room to grow.

And this post is huge so I’m going to put the rest under a cut :)

There's also a common refrain in certain online polyam/ENM circles that triads and throuples are overrepresented in media and they may be right to some extent. Personally, I believe the issue isn't that triads and throuples are overrepresented, but that there is such minuscule positive rep of ethical non-monogamy in general, that the few tiny instances we have of triads in media make it seem like it's "everywhere" when in actuality, it's still quite rare and the media we do have often veers into Unicorn Hunter fetish porn. Which is its own problematic thing. And just to be clear, I’m not including this part to dissuade you from writing "falling back-asswards into threesomes." If anything, I need more of it and would hook it directly into my brain if I could. I'm just throwing it out there into the void in the hope that someone will take the thought and run with it, lol.

I’d love to see more polyfidelitous rep in fiction, just as much as I’d like to see more relationship anarchy too. More diversity in fiction is always good.

Another thing that differs in writing ENM romance vs conventional monogamy is the feeling like you need to justify yourself. There's a lot of pressure to be as healthy and non-problematic as possible because you are being held to a higher standard of criticism. Both from people from without the ENM communities, and from the people within. Granted, some people don't give a shit and just want to read some fantastic porn (valid) but there are those who will cheerfully read Fifty Shades of Bullshit and call it "spicy" and "romantic," then turn around and call the most tooth-rottingly-sweet-fluff about a queer platonic polycule heresy. That's just the way the world works.

(Pro-tip for author life in general: never read your own reviews; that way madness lies. I glimpsed one the other day that tagged Hunger Pangs as “ethical cheating” and just about had an aneurism.)

And while that feeling of needing to justify yourself comes from a valid place of being excluded from the table of socially accepted norms, it can also be to the detriment of both the story and the subject matter at hand. I've seen some authors bend so far over backward to avoid being problematic in their portrayal of ENM, they end up being problematic for entirely different reasons. Usually because they give such a skewed, rose-tinted perspective of how things work, it ends up coming off as well... a bit culty and obnoxious tbh.

“Look how enlightened we are, freed from the trappings of monogamy and jealousy! We’re all so honest and perfect and happy!”

Yeah, uhu, sure Jan. Except here’s the thing, not all jealousy is bad. How you act on it can be, but jealousy itself is an important tool in the junk drawer that is the range of human emotion. It can clue us in to when we’re feeling sad or neglected, which in turn means we should figure out why we’re feeling those things. Sometimes it’s because brains are just like that and anxiety is a thing. Other times it’s because our needs are actually being neglected and we are in an unhealthy situation we need to remedy. You gotta put the work in to figure it out. Which is the same as any style of relationship, whether it’s mono, polyam or whatever flavor of ENM you subscribe to* And sometimes you just gotta be messy, because that’s how humans are. Being afraid to show that mess makes it a dishonest portrayal, and it also robs you of some great cannon fodder for character development.

Which brings me in a roundabout way to my current pet peeve in how certain writers take monogamous ideals and apply them to ENM, sometimes without even realizing it. The “Find the Right Person and Settle Down” trope.

Often, in this case, ENM or polyamory is treated as a phase. Something you mature out of with age or until you meet “The One(tm).” This is, of course, an attempt to follow the mono style formula expected in most romances. And while it might appeal to many readers, it’s uh, actually quite insulting.

To give an example, I am currently seeing this a lot in the Witcher fandom.

Fanon Netflix!Jaskier is everyone's favorite ethical slut until he meets Geralt then woops, wouldn’t you know, he just needed to find The One(tm). Suddenly, all his other sexual and romantic exploits or attractions mean nothing to him. Let's watch as he throws away a core aspect of his personality in favor of a man.

Yeah... that sure showed those societal norms...

If I were being generous, I’d say it’s a poor attempt at showing New Relationship Euphoria and how wrapped up people can become in new relationships. But honestly, it’s monogamous bias eking its way in to validate how special and unique the relationship is. Because sometimes people really can’t think of any other way to show how important and valid a relationship is without defining it in terms of exclusivity. Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how ENM works for a lot of people and invalidates a lot of loving, serious and long-term relationships.

This is not to say that some polyam/poly-leaning people can't be happy in monogamous relationships! I am! (I consider myself ambiamorous. I'm happy with either monogamy or polyamory, it really just depends on the relationship(s) I’m in.) But I also don't regard my relationship with a mono partner as "settling down" or "growing up." It's just a choice I made to be with a person I love, and it's a valid one. Just like choosing to never close yourself off to multiple relationships is valid. And I wish more people realized that, or rather, I wish the people writing these things knew that :P

Anyway, I think I’ve rambled enough. I hope this collection of incoherent thoughts actually makes some sense and might be useful.

----

*A good resource book that doesn't pull any punches in this regard is Polysecure by Jessica Fern. It's a wonderfully insightful read that explores the messier side of consensual non-monogamy, especially with how it can be affected by trauma or inter-relationship conflicts. But it also shows how to take better steps toward healthy, ethical non-monogamy (a far better job than More Than Two**) and conflict resolution, making it a valuable resource both for someone who is a part of this relationship style***, but also for writers on the outside looking in who might have a very simple or misguided idea of what conflict within polyam/ENM relationships might look like, vs traditional monogamous ones.

** The author of More Than Two has been accused of multiple accounts of abuse within the polyamorous community, with many of his coauthors having spoken out about the gaslighting and emotional and psychological damage they experienced while in a relationship with him. A lot of their stories are documented here: https://www.itrippedonthepolystair.com/ (warning: it is not light material and deals with issues of abuse, gaslighting, and a whole other plethora of Yikes.) While some people still find More Than Two helpful reading, there are now, thankfully, much, much better resources out there.

*** Some people consider polyam/ENM to be part of their identity or orientation, while others view it as a relationship style.It largely depends on the individual.

#long post #writing #ethical non-monogamy #relationship styles #relationship models in fiction #also that kindle link is an affiliate link #because fuck giving amazon free recs

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absolutebl · 2 years

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Why do you think it is that Thailand is getting more explicit with their sexual interactions? There's a lot more tongue kissing; there was that rape scene in KP that was as explicit as the sex in Queer As Folk, and there was New grabbing Zee's crotch in Kinky Pie(I haven't seen ep 10 yet so please no spoilers if there's explicit sex in that one). What's up with that?

Why do I think Thailand is getting more explicit in their BL?

I'd blame TharnType, (and then Why R U?) it was evidently clear from that it's what international viewers want and many indie houses (to distinguish themselves from GMMTV in particular) are gunning for the mature rating and audience these days.

Honestly, KP was always going to be high heat it goes with the mafia theme. (TRADITION! Tradition!) And if you go back to like 90′s yakuza yaoi - also super rapey. (Not excuses here, it is what it is, dub con, non con, and so forth. I do not wish to get into a debate about KP, that sex scene last week squicked me tf out for many reasons but the first aspect was vomit breath and I’m sorry I am never gonna get over it. We all have our baggage.)

Back to the question:

Thailand has always served the market, it’s how they became the juggernaut they are.

I mean, we used to say “ratings don’t lie,” now it’s like “ad revenue and streaming subs and YT eyeballs don’t lie.” Cutie Pie is a SENSATION and KP is certainly getting a ton of bandwidth.

Production studios/houses always do this thing where they’re like “why you successful, little show?”

Which is code for: What elements can we cherry pick and then reproduce to continue the trend? Then they only pick the cheapest ones and forget about everything important.

It’s like focusing only on archetypes, tropes, and setting but forgetting the whole narrative structure (story, themes, messages, script, etc...). Which is kinda how many Thai BL pulps in particular have become these shows loosely held together by nothing but tropes. (I’m looking at YOU Tuxedo.)

For a long time Thailand was like: school setting (CHECK), faen fatal, CHECK, kiss or two, CHECK. And so forth.

Right now many Thai houses have decided to put high heat on that check list, and take some of the other items off.

There’s another factor.

I’ve talked about this before, but I think the talent is super cheap in Thailand (as opposed to say, Korea) and the hits to reputation for playing gay seem less severe (although other issues arise, see sasaeng shippers). As BL has become so ubiquitous over the last 5 years, it’s almost like a right of passage for Thai actors to do BL, again, as opposed to the much more conservative and homophobic social structures of some other BL producing countries (also places where BL is still marginalized).

Which is a long way of saying:

I bet it’s cheap to pay boys to kiss in Thailand. So when studios are pricing out production costs and they want to get lots of eyeballs out the other end (which many production houses do) they might put high heat into the budget.

Before you ask, I don’t know for sure in Thailand specifically but here (USA) and in many other film industries nudity clauses and intimacy restrictions in actor contracts literally mean the more kisses the more it costs, and more than kissing can get very very expensive. Also, many actors reserve rights around having a say in their body doubles for the nude scenes - and yes they sure do pick “prettier”. *

Image is EVERYTHING.

I know I know, here I am, RUINING YOUR enjoyment again. But you did ask ME the question.

Carry on!

* which is not to say there aren’t actors so who will do this themselves, but like doing your own stunts, it can be risky.

#thai bl #thai film industry #why r U?#cutie pie #tharntype #love stage!!

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inawickedlittletown · 3 years

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Queerbaiting and Buddie

(word count: 1,900)

I keep saying that I don’t want to spend any more time on 9-1-1 meta or fic, but the events of this weekend made me open up a document where I had some unfinished meta and in light of the S4 finale airing tonight, I thought I might at least write this:

“Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not actually depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ representation. They do so to attract a queer or straight ally audience with the suggestion of relationships or characters that appeal to them, while at the same time attempting to avoid alienating other consumers.”

That is how Wikipedia defines queerbaiting. And I really feel like everyone needs to read that and then read it again and realize that what is happening on 9-1-1 with Buddie is NOT queerbaiting.

I don’t want to go into the long history of queerbaiting because we would be here all day and anyone that wants to do some research should go and do so. There are a lot of resources out there. Use them.

But the short of it is this: queerbaiting has a lot more to do with the way a show is promoted, with the way that anyone involved in the show talks about a queer ship, and with the show deliberately scripting scenes that hint at a relationship without any intention of following through. Expectations and wanting a queer ship to go canon and those expectations not being met do not alone equate to it being queerbaiting.

For any of us that have been around a long time there are a lot of perfect examples and if you compare Buddie to any of them, they are very different. I’ll name a few:

Merlin/Arthur

John Watson/Sherlock

Emma Swan/Regina

Derek/Stiles

Castiel/Dean Winchester (though they did go canon...barely)

Lena/Kara

Buck and Eddie do not fit into that list. Which isn’t to say that someday they could belong there, but I just do not believe that they will even if Buddie never becomes canon. And this all lies in how Buddie as a ship has been treated both on screen and off. I’ll break it down by season.

S2:

Eddie is very clearly introduced as a new character, a straight Army veteran with a disabled kid and family drama. He and Buck have immediate chemistry. We can’t deny that, or deny that from that first episode there are immediate sparks. Unintended sparks, but sparks nevertheless. And it is easy to tell that no one on the production team expected that and the story reflects that.

Yes a foundation for their friendship is formed and yet the season long story focuses on Eddie’s relationship with his estranged wife and Buck is dealing with his own growth after being left by Abby. Their friendship shines and their scenes are great but none of them suggest romance and there are actually a lot of episodes where Buck and Eddie barely interact in S2 aside from in the background or for small work related moments (this mostly happens after Shannon returns).

S2 does give us the first acknowledgement from the powers that be aka Tim Minear that they know what the fans have seen. This is why the elf scene exists, but it exists in a space where it’s a nod to the fans and not meant to do much more than that. The other moment is during the call with the livestreamer. But S2, places them completely and without question on a strong friendship.

S3:

We see a lot more conflict for Buck and Eddie in this season and we see how close and important they are to each other. Those are the two main things. That can be read as friendship easily and it’s a season where both Buck and Eddie deal with their pasts and in one way or another start to get closure while their friendship remains intact.

Yes there are some scenes that make us squint and go huh, wtf? (I’m looking at you kitchen scene), but narratively we also know that neither of these boys is ready for a real relationship with anyone, let alone each other. But we can bask in how close they are as well as how Christopher fits in into all of it.

But in S3 we are also introduced to Ana and we see the return of Abby. We also get to see that Buck and Eddie have become closer than ever and that the lawsuit only serves to highlight the importance that they both feel about having the other available to them. I’ll also quickly mention that Eddie Begins worked hard to highlight Buck’s devotion to Eddie.

S4:

Without considering the events of the finale (I am avoiding spoilers and know nothing about it or the speculation), we’ve seen Buck and Eddie both grow and get further closure on their past. This season has paralleled them well and their friendship has not faltered, they’re as close as ever.

The beginning of the season was heavily focused on Buck and we saw him grow as a person and begin to work on himself in a healthy way and we’ve seen Eddie be supportive of that.

We also have Ana to consider and her relationship with Eddie as well as the return of Taylor and yet the appearance of these women has not changed the Buck and Eddie dynamic. And I find it fascinating that Eddie beginning to date Ana, is the thing that prompted Buck to start dating. The parallels are all over the place but it is the strength of the friendship and the way they care so deeply about each other that remains whether that becomes romantic is still to be seen, but it could still go either way.

Off-screen by the end of S2, Tim Minear had already addressed Buddie by throwing in that elf scene in a wink/nudge fashion that said “I see you” and in the scene with the girl with the livestream with the comments. During S3 he tweeted about being frustrated by the fans demanding and being hostile and thinking that that would make him more likely to do what they want (I’m paraphrasing what I remember seeing). Tim has never once said that Buddie will happen or shut the door on the ship entirely, but he did say he did not want to engage in conversation about it because he doesn’t want to get into arguments with fans.

Oliver has always been enthusiastic about Buddie and has even said that he would be perfectly fine with it happening both a while ago and more recently in promo for S4. Conscious of queerbaiting and not wanting to give fans false hope, he has specifically said that he does not know if it will or won’t happen and that he wouldn’t speak on that as he’s not the one making that decision. His support for it happening does not mean he has any sway one way or the other. He’s said this a few times and even wrote a letter to the effect to make it clear to fans that the last thing he wants is to disappoint someone due to something he’s said.

All in all, it just isn’t a constructive environment for anyone working on the show to interact with fans on this topic because any time that they do, they get attacked by overly enthusiastic buddie shippers that in many ways are making everything worse.

In all of the interviews from Tim that I’ve seen, he has always been very quick to hint at what was coming up on the show in a way that at times has been misleading on purpose. The number one thing that comes to mind is early in S4 where Buck was said to get a new woman in his life. Tim absolutely made it out to seem like it was a girlfriend while knowing fully well that it was a therapist. This is an excellent example of what promoting and hinting is actually like. No one from this show has done that in regards to Buddie.

No one has gone out of their way to hint that it may happen in a way that excites the fans. And this is one of my main reasons for knowing that Buddie is not a queerbait. At no point in the life of the show so far has anyone used Buddie in a promotional way to bring in viewers. Because THAT was the whole point of queerbaiting in the past.

It was a way that some showrunners found to bring in a lot of viewers when they needed to up their numbers in order to show networks they were worth keeping around. Someone figured out that LGBTQ people wanted to see themselves represented so much so that they would tune in to anything that promised an LGBTQ character in some fashion. It was a tactic that worked well in the landscape of tv where there was so little LGBTQ content on mainstream media that anyone wanting it would latch onto anything. And then they just wouldn’t deliver on those relationships or characters. In 2021, that is not the world we live in any longer.

In today’s tv landscape there is so much to watch and so much to pick from and diversity has grown, it is celebrated. Queer characters are well represented as are queer relationships and queer stories. The times are different. A while back I was listening to a podcast (Bait: a queerbaiting podcast) and something I found interesting was how the hosts both agreed that in today’s tv landscape there is no more real queerbait and that we won’t easily find anything like the ships I mentioned above. I think I agree more with this than I expected to, because I do think that it exists in some spaces, but it definitely isn’t what it used to be. This is a good thing.

Specific to 9-1-1, this is a show that has that diversity and that isn’t afraid of tackling that diversity and giving us interesting and nuanced perspectives and stories embracing that. We have characters of color, women in positions of power, a F/F relationship, two multi-racial relationships, a disabled character, other queer characters including a M/M relationship. There is so much in this show that embraces diversity and that embraces the reality of what the world looks like. To call it queerbait is to disrespect everything else that this show is and has done and the hard storylines that have been tackled that we would not have seen on tv ten years ago.

And I get that Buddie would be another breakthrough. It would be a novel way to tell a queer story, and it would be amazing if it were to happen. The set up is there, but it isn’t fully realized, and Buck and Eddie can still be read as just friends if we take off the shipping goggles. But it also isn’t queerbait or likely to become queerbait and people have to stop calling it that.

What Buddie resembles is one of the many unintended slow burn ships that have frustrated viewers in many forms across fandoms and we just have to go along for the ride and maybe it will happen. Or maybe it won’t. But if we know anything about relationships on tv, it is that a lot of the fun comes from the journey, even if the destination is good too.

#911 fox #buddie #911 meta #911 on fox #buddie meta #buddie is not queerbaiting #long post #this is almost 2k long

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peachyqueenly · 1 year

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Cookie Run, Queerbait, and why the concept does not apply to SeaMoon

Your love brought spring to my endless winter...

For more examples of where their romance was suggested, I recommend this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPJU8yBYD8Ng7lhh_lR0bA2XRwmJTtbRceGuKahFxFs/edit

With who they are established...

Queerbait: What is it?

Queerbaiting most popularly is understood as a marketing gimmick where creators and multimedia companies suggest queerness to draw in LGBT people and allies, only for the rug to be pulled out from underneath fans. Whether this is utilizing the ‘bury your gays’ trope, the rep being constrained to insignificant side characters/moments, or just not existing at all.

Voltron’s last season had two key things regarding queerbait: the Klance drama (the ship between Keith and Lance) and Shiro’s bait and switch with his partner.

Queerbaiting vs Queer Coding

Why SeaMoon falls more into Coding

With the two elements defined, let’s explain why SeaMoon falls more into the realm of coding rather than baiting.

As an example, lets discuss the two closest things to M/F romance we have in the franchise-- PureLily (Pure Vanilla and White Lily) and MintCocoa (Mint Choco and Cocoa).

Extra Note on S Class Comparisons

I do NOT think you can compare SeaMoon or anything in CR to S Class tropes. But I will discuss it just to clear things up, as I find comparing the trope to queerbaiting problematic.

Ending Notes

But the idea the devs ever queerbaited audiences is unfair and actively makes many WlW feel invalidated in how they easily saw the coding present in the two’s relationship. Again, queer coding is a net neutral phenomenon while queerbaiting is negative. To subscribe such a notion to what is important rep to so many WlW is hurtful.

Sources

https://www.animefeminist.com/escape-yuri-hell-flip-flappers-critique-class-s-genre/

https://bookriot.com/what-is-queerbaiting-vs-queer-coding/

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPJU8yBYD8Ng7lhh_lR0bA2XRwmJTtbRceGuKahFxFs/edit

https://twitter.com/CRKingdomEN/status/1532119839178952704?s=20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_S_(genre)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queerbaiting#:~:text=Queerbaiting%20is%20a%20marketing%20technique,romance%20or%20other%20LGBTQ%2B%20representation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_coding#:~:text=Queer%20coding%20is%20the%20subtextual,character%20in%20media%20as%20queer.

#cookie run #cookie run ovenbreak #cookie run kingdom #crob #crk #sea fairy cookie #moonlight cookie #seamoon #queerbaiting #queer coding

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emcandon · 3 years

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I enjoyed your book. Quite a bit actually. I imagine I'll like it even more on my second read through. The story was well told and the characters were charming. It was nice to see a nonbinary character in a Star Wars story that was more than a bit player. I especially liked the romantic tension between the Ronin and Idzuna. There was one thing that was sort of concerning to me though. The character Yuehiro is said to be only 14 and on hormone replacement therapy. Having a young trans character would be wonderful, but promoting the use of life altering drugs by a child is somewhat problematic. In modern society, we've sort of agreed that children don't have the maturity of mind to make decisions that will affect the rest of their lives. Children can't get tattoos. They can't marry or consent. They don't receive life sentences for heinous crimes (except in cases where the law is manipulated unjustly.) I've known more than one person in my personal life that has identified as trans and then later gone back to identifying with the gender assigned to them at birth. It's a phenomenon more common than you'd think. And the consequences are sometimes irreversible. I don't expect you to answer this ask. I just want to you understand that writing for a franchise that markets to children puts a lot of responsibility in your hands.

I’m very glad you enjoyed the book. Thank you for telling me.

However, respectfully, I’m going to have to vehemently disagree with your concerns. I don’t think they’re grounded in empirical evidence, to the point that I have found myself wondering whether this argument is presented in earnest.

To wit: HRT is safe, reversible, and life-saving.

My background: for a time I was planning to go into health psychology with a specialty in queer health. My own health problems interfered with my plans, but I completed an MA before branching into new work. For that MA, I conducted research on treatment and support for adolescent trans and genderqueer individuals.

My academic approach tends to be skeptical. I don’t trust my own instincts until I’ve investigated them thoroughly and formed a conclusion around that investigation. I also don’t like to challenge people’s lived experiences. I don’t think it’s fair. I don’t think it’s kind.

So when I say that I investigated the topic of reverse transition as thoroughly as possible, I hope you believe me. I made one professor nervous, when I explained my intention. I think she worried that I was a developing TERF. That concern shaped my thoughts as well. It made me wonder what kind of agenda would lead a person to seek to preemptively prevent someone from obtaining treatment for their pain. It didn’t stop me from looking into the subject. If anything, it deepened my understanding of the question.

In the end, I found that for a variety of reasons, including those aforementioned, I fully and fiercely support children’s right to seek treatment with HRT. There are already enough excruciating barriers between trans kids and whatever support they need to live their lives — barriers external and internal. I have no right to be another. In fact, I refuse to be.

In any case, I hope you revisit your thoughts. They deserve reconsideration.

Edit: As a note, after a good deal of consideration, I concluded that this probably wasn't asked in good faith. I decided to respond anyway in order to make myself clear -- for the benefit of trans and queer readers who might be concerned by this matter. I will not be entertaining more questions in the same vein. (Anon, if you do believe you asked this in good faith, I urge you to consider why you actually didn't.)

#star wars #star wars ronin #tw: terfs #ask reply

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spacejellyfish3 · 3 years

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So I watched—and loved—Fear Street on Netflix. It’s fun, it’s scary, it’s very well directed, impressively shot, and delightfully queer. I’m also really excited to see where it goes next, since it is a trilogy of films that are APPARENTLY COMING OUT ONE AFTER THE OTHER IM BEING FED VERY WELL

Um…

Ahem…so anyways…I’m super stoked to foray into the 70s for the obviously Friday The 13th homaging next installment. But I as I’m wont to do, I have thoughts, I have theories, I have several analyses bursting out of my brain for zombies to eat.

And so without further ado; here’s my Fear Street theory (and yes, all of the spoilers apply):

So…yeah.

Sara Fiers is not the villain. She most definitely is not.

That’s pretty unlikely given the intensely unsubtle foreshadowing in the opening credits ALONE.

No…the witch isn’t the villain at all.

Sunnyvale is.

It’s particularly interesting to me how much the high key in your face opening credits establish very clearly the dichotomy between Shadyside and Sunnyvale; one town full of murder, mayhem, and misfortune, the other prosperous, picturesque, and peaceful. It’s the difference between Killer Central USA and The Sunniest Place On Earth. And that, in my opinion, is—forgive the pun—shady as all hells.

In fact, it’s so very much and exceedingly reeking with suspicion…

It’s stated extremely plainly throughout the film how Shadyside has continuously descended into a pit of death and suffering as the years pass by, while Sunnyvale remains rich and pleasant and as safe as can be. That cannot be a coincidence—especially in a horror movie, a genre where almost nothing is ever coincidental.

And if Buffy the Vampire Slayer has taught me anything at all, it’s that supposedly idyllic towns that market themselves as “sunny” are never ever to be trusted at all costs.

Ever. Never ever ever.

The main reason I find Sunnyvale sus is pretty obvious, however: if they weren’t, why even mention the difference in the towns’ wealth and safety? Why bring up that conflict? Why even have two towns in the first place? What would be the point if there’s no relation? Sunnyvale’s entire existence within the story, and their relative prosperity in comparison to Shadyside, seems very much like a clue that they’re involved in some freaky deaky dealings and possible black magic. They wouldn’t bring up these details if they weren’t gonna matter in the long run; you don’t spend that much time and effort just to set up a red herring.

Unless it’s just bad writing, which might be probable but seems unlikely for this specific property at least…

Another big indication comes in the witch’s supposed motivations…which don’t seem to exist beyond “muah ha ha murder” and “generic revenge” if we’re being completely honest here. But that flimsiness made me take a closer look into the visions Sam got after her blood seeped into Sara’s grave and as she got closer to death: a swarm of bees, red tinted almost like blood got splashed onto the camera, a girl screaming into the ether, an image of the Witch’s Mark, and who I presume to be Sara yelling “YOU! IT’S YOU!” over and over again. But when I look at that and put it in context with the motives the 1994 cast comes up with, there’s not much cohesion, is there?

Revenge as a motive wouldn’t explain why Heather was killed in the cold open. It also wouldn’t explain the weekly tragedies that befall Shadyside. If Sara wanted revenge on the town that tortured and killed her, why all the drama? Supposing she can possess the dead, why not just necromance an army of unkillable zombie monstrosities to raze the town in one go and get all over with? Why is this bitch out here doing the most? It doesn’t add up and it doesn’t make sense.

And if you take all that in tandem with the various tragedies of Shadyside—the ways people were murdered, the consistency of the massacres over the years, etc—it starts to paint an intriguing picture:

These deaths aren’t passion filled or emotive or generalized, they’re targeted (at those whose blood has mixed with the witch’s grave) and more importantly: they’re low key ritualistic. It screams of the classic sacrificial deaths and equivalent exchange. Sunnyvale’s peace and prosperity is very likely rooted in a demonic ritual that both feeds on the suffering of Shadyside as well as directly cause it as a sort of feedback, taking the brunt of the bad luck, poverty, and decay meant for Sunnyvale only heightened and magnified to insane degrees. It’s why so many deaths have happened over the years: it’s a clear method of perpetuating that state of perfect, suburban idyllia.

And honestly if this theory does turn out to be the case, it’d serve as an excellent metaphor for wealth inequality, possibly gentrification, and most definitely exploitation of the lower classes of the socioeconomic hierarchy by the upper crust elite WASP 1% so as to perpetuate the status quo of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and continuing to suffer. That itself is kinda sorta already supported by the text of Fear Street too in that Sunnyvale is made up of mainly privileged white suburbanites who live in antebellum architecture style houses and manors blanketed by green grass and white picket fences whereas in contrast Shadyside is home to a clearly diverse and multiethnic population that is disenfranchised, poor, low in prospects, high in death and suffering, and living in relative squalor…

So imma leave that here and I hope y’all add your own theories and observations if you can and want to. I’d love to read them so please don’t hesitate to reblog with your additions and stuff!

#fear street #fear street 1994 #fear street 1978 #fear street 1666 #netflix #horror #horror movies

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alarrytale · 1 year

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I've always thought this, but the theory of Larry is why it's so popular. As in, if they had already come out in, say, 2012, everyone would have been over it by now. "Oh, those two are in a relationship, yeah. It's cute," is what people would say and then they would move on and not spend all their time making blogs or tiktoks analyzing their every move because, duh, they'd already be out. What I mean is, the mystery that surrounds it is what makes people so obsessed with it. If there were no mystery, they'd just be another gay couple in the industry. People will probably still be obsessed with it to a degree even if they come out, but only now since the mystery has gone on for so long. But I think most people will become uninterested a couple years after they come out, because they'll have gotten their answers. It's the same logic behind slowburn fanfics, wherein people say that it's more fun when it's a "will they-won't they" situation and becomes boring a few chapters after the couple in the story get together.

This is also why I think H & L's teams and even the 1D management, at least in the later years, somewhat encouraged it. Why else do you think they were allowed to do the rainbow bears for months? Or why they kept in obvious larry moments in interviews in 2014 and 2015? Sure, they needed to make sure people didn't know for sure they were together, and they needed certain people to think H & L hated each other, but back then and even to a degree now you can hear most people screaming at their concerts whenever they make a reference to the other. I think they use the mystery behind it to their advantage. Plus, come on, the world's biggest boyband has a secret gay relationship that has to be suppressed by management and you have to analyze their every move to figure out whether it's real? It's a crazy good marketing strategy, and young girls have always loved thinking about two cute guys making out and being in love or whatever. Though it does seem like they really were suppressing it because a big chunk if not the majority of the fanbase still fantasized about being with H.

Hi, anon!

I very much disagree with this take. Maybe it's because of the way i came into this fandom, but i think very few larries are here for the mystery, to solve the puzzle and find "proof". This is not a game, and people on both sides are hurting over this situation, and have been for a long time.

I think you are forgetting your larrie history a bit here. Us larries saw two people who were together, but weren't allowed to be open about their relationship, despite wanting to. They weren't allowed to sit next to each other, interact or show that they were gay. They were punished if they did and reprimanded. They were given female partners and had to stunt to hide their sexuality. They weren't happy and tried to give us subtle signs of their true selves, even though they knew they'd be punished for it.

Us larries saw injustice, oppression of queers, mental abuse and controlling behaviour from syco, sony and modest. We were fighting to let them be together and let them be themselves.

I also think you underestimate how big an out and gay young couple like h and l would have been for the queer community back in 2012. They'd give the queers a voice and representation that's sorely needed. They already had a large fanbase behind them, but they would have gotten backing from the queer community too. They would have been role models for young queer people. They wouldn't be just another gay couple in the industry as you say, because there simply aren’t any other gay couple in the industry that would compare to their level of fame and celebrity.

This is not fan ficton, there is no will they, won't they situation. You don’t have to analyse every move to prove larry is real. Larry is real and it has been that way since 2010. The only reason we have to prove ourself and provide evidence is because of the constant gaslighting from 1dhq, lthq and hshq, and the hate we recieve from antis. "Louis" tried to get rid of larries in september 2012. In a very agressive way, that harmed both larries and the queer community. I will never forgive them for that and the aftermath that followed. Ever. And that's a situation syco, sony and modest created. Also, they couldn’t and wouldn't be able to plan their marketing strategy that far ahead in 2012.

I agree that they use larry for promo, but that's because we are a powerful and loud target group. But if you think they created a situation where people are recieving death threats over thinking two guys are together and are afraid to show rainbow colours at concerts, as a marketing strategy, then i question who you think h and l are as people.

#long post #sorry for the late reply it's a busy week for me #fandom #larries ftw

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pippenpaddlopsicopolisthethird · 4 years

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That person might not have said top ten but I would like to see the other five underrated animes 👀

(First post) I’LL KEEP ‘EM COMING, I LIVE FOR RECOMMENDING ANIME. I keep changing my mind on which ones to include because there’s so much good shit out there.

By the way, all of the recommendations in this list AND the last one are 26 episodes or less and tell a complete story. No cliffhangers, no “finish the manga to see the finale”, no “where’s the rest of it???” endings. That’s why, for now, Stars Align and Princess Jellyfish still get stuck with the honorable mentions even though what’s been made for both of them is incredible.

1. The Tatami Galaxy (Drama, Introspective)

The director behind Ping Pong the Animation and the original author behind Eccentric Family join forces to make Tatami Galaxy, which capitalizes on the best strengths of both shows. The protagonist is a lonely college student facing the prospect of graduating after having thoroughly wasted his college years. He bemoans how circumstances outside of his control, from conniving fake-friends to selfish and shallow extras, have conspired to ruin what should have been a “rose-colored campus life”, and wishes he could do it over again so he can get it right.

So he does, with the show using avant-garde animation and abstract storytelling to explore all of his threads of what-ifs. The plotlines seem separate but weave together and subtly build on each other, culminating to a finale that explores the meaning of relationships and who you are in the absence of outside forces that can define you. It’s heartfelt, funny, raunchy, and deep, and perfectly encapsulates the existential dread of being in college. I watched it for the first time when I was about to finish undergrad and it hit like an emotional freight train, then I rewatched it during quarantine and it hit like a truck. This is one of my top favorite anime of all time.

2. Re:Creators (Fantasy, action)

Most of the anime I’ve put on these lists get their spots for being deep, nuanced, and delicately crafted. This is not one of them. But, by god, is it one of the most over-the-top fun shows I’ve ever seen. Re:Creators is a rare reverse-isekai. Fictional characters from popular anime, games, and manga suddenly start turning up in the real world, instructed to “find your Creator and reshape the world you came from”. The soundtrack by Hiroyuki Sawano is bar-none one of the hypest things out there; seriously, just listen to Layers, the song for a character from a grimdark everyone-dies series begging her author to tell her why.

The characters in this show are so fun to watch bounce off each other, even if they’re not as “three dimensional” as others. Magical girls fight Stand users, mechs face down scifi-noir detectives, Lawful Good Paladins go toe-to-toe with Chaotic Evil light novel villains. But by including the artists who imagined these characters as characters themselves, it also has a lot to say about the creative process, the reasons people create, and the relationship between an artist and their work. Between the high-octane fight scenes, there’s a surprisingly human and genuine throughline.

3. Sora no Woto (Slice of life, music, post-apocalyptic)

This show is another of my favorite examples of worldbuilding done right. A young girl joins the army as a bugler because it’s one of the only ways she can learn to play music. The episode plots focus on how she and her tiny regiment of young women stationed at a small town in the middle of nowhere deal with day-to-day troubles, while the details of the world around them slowly fill and round out the picture of a broken society where people still just... live. They still create myths, they still have festivals, they still blow glass and tell ghost stories and make art. The plots seem inconsequential, until the world built into the background becomes too prominent to ignore. The background art and music is some of the most gorgeous I’ve seen. It’s part of a genre I’ve been calling “soft apocalypse” and it’s been one of my favorites for years.

BONUS MENTION: Girl’s Last Tour (Slice of life, post-apocalyptic)

Yes, I’m cheating, but listen. Girl’s Last Tour fits perfectly into the canon narrative provided by Sora no Woto, just set in the far future, a few apocalypses later. It’s got less of a main plot, because there’s almost nothing of society left, just two girls wandering together through an abandoned world. It’s soft, introspective, and bittersweet, showing how humanity is still humanity no matter how few people are left. Despite having nothing about their productions in common, it’s the perfect spiritual successor to Sora no Woto and they deserve to be recommended in the same spot.

4. Tamako Market (+ the movie) (Romance, slice-of-life)

This show is the platonic ideal of a soft, heartwarming, sweet-as-sugar, slice-of-life romance. It follows the daily life of Tamako, a high school girl who lives above a family-owned mochi shop in a shopping center, who is followed around by a talking bird trying to find a bride for his prince in a far-off land. But really the show isn’t about the bird. The show is about love in all its forms. The love that the other families in the shopping center have for Tamako, the love that she and her friends have for each other, the love they have for the activities they’re passionate about, the love you feel when someone makes you a cup of coffee, fated love, childhood crushes, family love.

Something about this show that also stands out is how gently and naturally it incorporates some of the best queer representation I’ve ever seen in anime. One of the shop owners is a kind and soft-spoken trans woman, who is never the butt of a joke, never questioned, never treated as different, loved all the same. One of Tamako’s friends is gay, and her crush on Tamako is treated with as much respect and care as every other moment in the show. This series never makes you flinch for fear of “representation” that turns sour. It’s the epitome of a feel-good show.

5. ACCA 13-Territory Inspection Department (Political, mystery, drama)

Yes, I keep saving my favorites for last on these lists. I can’t describe this show as anything but the perfectly written plot. As a rule, I don’t like political dramas, and this is one of my favorite anime of all time. It’s set in a fictional country, where 13 regions all exist relatively independently under one collective monarchical ruler, and follows Jean, an agent of the independent Inspection Department, which acts as a check and balance to each power. The series begins with Jean being assigned a full review of each territory while the powers-that-be field whispers of a coup. This show masters foreshadowing, intrigue, escalation, and mystery. The stakes build and overlap on scales from intensely personal to national. The pacing is amazing, keeping tension balanced with plot twists that answer more questions than they ask.

Plus, it’s got one of the most visually appealing and stylized openings out there. I realize that political drama isn’t exactly escapism right now, but believe me, this series is worth it.

#my posts #anime recommendations #acca 13 #tamako market #girls last tour #sora no woto #re creators #tatami galaxy #i literally spend HOURS on each of these lists #i love pointing people towards good anime #THERES GOOD SHIT OUT THERE #again if yall dont know about baccano by now just assume im always willing to tell you abt it #my asks #Anonymous

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