#this is how shipping discourse should go

[worstloki]

oh god oh please not odin it's just a matter of time until frigga is here too

Upcoming discourse where people argue it’s more moral to bang a variant of your adoptee father than a girl version of yourself/your brother from another timeline

[alexandraisyes]

The cutest reminder ever that the way family works in TSAMS canon is that two parties have to be in mutual agreement that they are family. If one party doesn't agree then they aren't family. Parties can revoke familial ties whenever they want and that means they are no longer family.

"Code Relation" theory is stupid because you're then implying that Eclipse is Sun and Moon's child. Which he isn't. Or that Killcode is somehow Moon's child and his brother at the same time that he's Eclipse, Lunar and Bloodmoon's "father" at the same time that they're Sun and Moon's grand children. Like, we're seeing the issue here, right?

Don't make things more complicated than it has to be. Just accept the fact that family is literally determined by a verbal agreement between two animatronics and nothing else because none of them were born from wombs. That means respecting canon when characters in canon decide that they aren't comfortable being family (like Eclipse) or just straight-up disown everyone (like Bloodmoon). It's okay to have headcanons, but don't try to push them onto canon.

[ruffbunny]

“growing up is going from billdip to billf/rd” growing up is realizing shipping is harmless and we all have bills and shit to pay and god above it does not actually matter outside of the online discourse bubble like…. It really doesn’t.

Please just go do something that makes you happy instead of being miserable and militant about thought crimes. Pleeeeaaaseeee Fortnite is free, the local animal shelter would love some volunteer work, there’s probably a shocking number of nature trails in your area, you could make bread😭

[essektheylyss]

I do think some of the handwringing I've seen about "hate" is funny because from what I can tell, even on twitter people are being surprisingly civil. The cast hasn't even had to make a big announcement clarifying a situation because everyone misinterpreted something and worked themselves into a furor. It took less than 12 hours after the c2 finale before Matt and Liam were like, "Uh, what do you mean, we literally said on stream Caleb and Essek get together." But there's also been a significant shift online since then to the point where anything short of "the precious baby blorbos were treated so niceys :3" is considered vicious hate, for some reason*, so I can't say I'm really surprised.

[violet-moonstone]

waiting for the day that people in a certain fandom learn that you can express a dislike for a ship without insulting people who ship it.

insinuating that someone is mentally unstable for shipping something you don't like trivializes mental illness, and it's ableist as hell to use that as an insult (funny how people's so-called progressiveness goes out the window in fandom discourse)

anyway I'm talking about some specific posts i just saw but honestly this applies to fandoms in general

the people playing pretend with fictional characters can't hurt you, nor are they trying to. but you going out of your way to make sure that everyone knows you're good person because you play pretend in the correct, good, wholesome way makes being in fandom spaces fucking exhausting

more ranting under the cut

The ship in question isn't even one of those "illegal" ones; it's an age gap between an adult and another adult. Would this gap make me wary IRL? Yeah...but these are not real people. What's more, there are real couples with significant age gaps and you cannot convince me that all of them are inherently toxic.

The fact that the ship is enemies to lovers also made them upset (because of implications of abuse) but people are unfortunately not good at separating what people like to explore in fan works from what people think is healthy in the real world.

I'm always annoyed when I'm just trying to look for my ships in peace and come across those kinds of posts -- not because it annoys me that there are people who don't like it, but because the way they do it is so irritating. There's no real conversation or critique going on. It's just "eww that's so yucky! Anyone who likes this is sick!"

They are absolutely not interested in discussing complex (and sure, even unhealthy) relationships between characters in an in-depth way, because it's icky. And anything icky must be avoided at all costs because if you think about the icky thing for too long that must mean that you are actually bad person.

Anyway, turn your brain off and only consume good, wholesome things. Prove to the fandom gods that you are holy and unproblematic.

[muirmarie]

Me: I joke about writing the same McCoy centric story over and over again in different ways

Me: and like. I love doing it and imma keep doing it because it makes me happy.

Me: but also. I do sometimes wonder if it's like. A little Much.

Me: like maybe I should branch out or something

Me: [reads another fundamental and extremely insulting misread of McCoy's character by someone who is clearly making a Choice to cast McCoy as the villain, because they have to get him out of the way of spirk, because they're too???? idk immature??? to realize that even when you're in a relationship with one person, other ppl can and SHOULD still be important to you]

Me: lmao I hope I AM too much actually!!!! I hope it is 100% obnoxious how much I love that doctor!!!!! Time to write more versions of the same story of McCoy being forced to realize that he is loved and cared for!!!!!!

Me: I KNOW MY NICHE AND IMMA DIE IN THAT NICHE, THANKS

[winepresswrath]

Darla/Angelus is also great because the show has a competing designated OTP and they exist to serve as contrast and hateful competition to THE ship. they are soulless monsters even by the standards of soulless monsters, they literally make the other soulless monsters go "yikes... your relationship seems not good maybe." but they love each other so fucking much. the writers can't help it. they are constantly trying to find their way back to each other. the way she hits him over a head with a shovel and leaves him to an angry mob while he tries to say he doesn't mind dying if it's with her AND the way they coo about it to each other afterwards. the way she takes him back against her better judgement because she missed him so so much but then kicks him out again later because he still can't be who she needs him to be. that's just how they say i love you.

[mellowmaidenhairs]

i think ppl who are super online or into fandom should watch/read/etc something without ever touching fandom discourse or making aus or shipping characters just like every once in a while

[skitskatdacat63]

.

[mistninja]

Working on my s.hadowhunters post and I think we can blame c.assandra c.lare for every fic-turned-into-novel book out there. I'm so serious

[femslashspuffy]

Pov you open up the shipwars tumblr poll of some new gay ship vs someone else:

Normal ship, long runner, for fun fans: haha yeah we're so much better I love this ship this ship is so good this ship for the win yeah kill them guys this ship SWEEP

New gay ship everyone thinks is so enlightened fans: I can't believe people aren't voting for stock ship don't they know they literally kissed on screen. Sorry your ship didn't kiss but this was just introduced and the actors have the bare minimum of chemistry. Also it's so mean for you guys to make fun of our ship like you're all being homophobic right now* I can't believe you all hate gay people.

*both ships are gay

[empty-blog-for-lurking]

🔥🥺? Hiiiii btw<3

Hiiii!!!!!!

Opinion- Werewolves are much cooler than vampires however neither of them are as cool as Dullahan (which are frankly underrated), Mermaids (specifically deep sea fucked up monster mermaids) and Dragons.

[partywithponies]

Listen. Beloveds. I say this gently. But you have got to stop using the "oh yeah? you think it's fine to ship this? trying telling your family members and coworkers about your ship and see how they react 😤" argument in your shipping discourse.

You do realise that to most normies who have never been in fandom, all shipping is deranged behaviour, right? You know this, right?? You do know that even if your ship is the most wholesome and unproblematic thing possible, if you go up to your Great Auntie Barbara or Gary From I.T. or whoever and are like "oh yeah one of my main hobbies? going online every single day without fail and talking to a bunch of strangers about how much these same two fictional characters should kiss. yeah I spend HOURS of my free time drawing them kissing and writing them kissing and editing footage of the show to appear more romantic too", there's a strong chance they are going to think you are unbelievably embarrassingly cringe at best and utterly insane and worth avoiding from now on at worst, right????

Please. Please don't encourage impressionable teens and young adults to think it's okay to bring up any fandom shit at the dinner table or in the staffroom unprompted without the danger of having real social repercussions. Please my loves you are stressing me out. Please promise me you don't do this. Oh baby no.

[ryin-silverfish]

One nerd's musing about Chinese religion and "respect"

-I try to stay away from fandom discourse, but, much like how you can smell the stench from a dumpster fire without walking into said dumpster fire, I've noticed something that seemed to come up a lot in western JTTW + adjacent fandoms: "respect Chinese religion".

-Usually as a reason for why you shouldn't ship a character, because of fucking course it's shipping discourse too.

-And my first reaction is "Man, you are taking Chinese religion too darn seriously, more than people who are born and raised in China."

-My second reaction is "I mean, most of us are atheist/agnostic by default anyways, with a good number of what I'd call 'atheist/agnostics with superstitions': people who said they were not religious, yet believed in Fengshui or divinations and burnt incense at temples for good luck."

-My third reaction: "But why do I get the feeling that when you mention 'Respect', you are thinking about something completely different?"

-Then I reread an essay from Anthony C. Yu, "Religion and Literature in China: The "Obscure Way" of Journey to the West", and the metaphorical lightbulb just lit up over my head.

(Everything below applies more to Daoism + associated folk religions, but by the time most classic Chinese vernacular novels were written, the blending of the three religions had become well and truly mainstream.)

(The conception of gods differs from dynasty to dynasty. What I'm describing here is mostly based on Ming and Qing ones; if you went back to Han or pre-Qin times, most of these would not apply.)

(I am one of the "atheist/agnostic by default" people. I just have an interest in this kind of stuff. I am also just one Chinese person, and an actual Daoist/Buddhist/Religion Studies researcher would probably have a lot more valuable information and perspective to offer when it comes to contemporary practices and worship. Like any people on the internet: take my words with a grain of salt.)

-Even in the past, when society was far less secularized, Chinese gods are not omniscient, perfect beings whose worship is a solemn, humorless affair. Some's worship are Serious Business, but that has more to do with the sort of gods they are and the patronage they enjoy, not godhood in and of itself.

-And even the ones that you are supposed to "treat seriously" are still very human. To use an analogy I've used plenty of times before: you respect and fear them in the same way you'd respect and fear an emperor's official, or the emperor himself, because if you don't, you are not gonna like the consequences.

-However, unlike Jesus, the emperor & his officials were capable of being temperamental, flawed, or an outright asshole, divine or not. Ideally, they wouldn't be, and if you were one of the "serious" believers——people who actually got an official permit, became ordained clergy, and went to live in a temple, you were unlikely to think of your gods in that manner.

-But it wasn't a complete, utter impossibility. The lower you go in the pantheon, the closer you get to popular religion, the less "serious" the gods and their worship become. By that, I mean general attitude, not sincerity of faith. You still shouldn't be rude to them, but, well, they are more likely to take a joke in stride, or participate in the "vulgar" pleasures of commoners because they weren't as bound to Confucian moral standards or religious disciplines.

-To stretch the same analogy further: you should still respect your village head, they could still give your ass a good spanking for being a disrespectful brat, but you were not obligated to get on your knees and kowtow to them like you would do in front of a provincial magistrate, the emperor's minister, or the emperor himself, nor did they have the power to chop your head off just because you were rude.

-On the other hand, the emperor would never visit a random peasant just to help them fix their broken plow or treat them to a nice meal, but your village head could, and your relationship would probably be warmer and a lot more personal as a result.

-Your respect for them was more likely to stem from the things they actually did for you and the village as a whole, instead of something owed to this distant, powerful authority you might never get to see in your lifetime, but could change its course with a single stroke of a brush.

-Now exchange "village head" for your run-of-the-mill Tudis and Chenghuangs and friendly neighborhood spirits (because yes, people worshipped yaoguais for the exact same reasons), emperor + his officials for the Celestial Bureaucracy, and you'd have a basic idea of how Chinese religions worked on the ground level.

-This is far from absolute: maybe your village head was a spiteful old bastard who loved bullying his juniors, maybe your regional magistrate was an honest, upright man who could enjoy a good drink and a good laugh, maybe the emperor was a lenient one and wouldn't chop your head off for petty offenses. But their general degree of power over you and the closeness of your relationships still apply.

-Complicating the matter further, some folk gods (like Wutong) were worshipped not because they brought blessings, but because they were the divine equivalent of gangsters running a protection racket: you basically bribed them with offerings so they'd leave you alone and not wreck your shit. Famous people who died violently and were posthumously deified often fell into this category——shockingly enough, Guan Yu used to be one such god!

-Yeah, kinda like how your average guy could become an official through the imperial examinations, so could humans become gods through posthumous worship, or cultivate themselves into immortals and Enlightened beings.

-Some immortals aren't qualified for, or interested in a position in the Celestial Bureaucracy——they are the equivalent of your hermits, your cloistered Daoist priests, your common literati who kept trying and failing the exams. But some do get a job offer and gladly take it.

-Anyways, back to my original point: that's why it's so absurd when people pull the "Respect Chinese Religion1!!1!" card and immediately follow up with "Would you do X to Jesus?"

-Um, there are a lot of things you can do with Chinese gods that I'm pretty sure you can't do with Jesus. Like worshipping him side by side with Buddha and Confucius (Lao Tzu). Or inviting him to possess you and drink copious amount of alcohol (Tang-ki mediums in SEA). Or genderbend him into a woman over the course of several centuries because folks just like that version of Jesus better (Guan Yin/Avalokitesvara).

-But most importantly, Chinese religions are kinda a "free market" where you could pick and choose between gods, based on their vicinity to you and how efficient they were at answering prayers. You respect them because they'll help you out, you aren't an asshole and know your manners, and pissing them off is a bad idea in general, not because they are some omnipotent, perfect beings who demand exclusive and total reverence.

-A lot of the worship was also, well, very "practical" and almost transactional in nature: leave offerings to Great Immortal Hu, and he doesn't steal your imperial seal while you aren't looking. Perform the rites right and meditate on a Thunder General's visage, and you can temporarily channel said deity's power. Get this talisman for your kids at Bixia Yuanjun's temple, and they'll be protected from smallpox.

-"Faith alone" or "Scripture alone" is seldom the reason people worship popular deities. Even the obsession with afterlife wasn't about the eternal destination of your soul, and more about reducing the potential duration of the prison sentence for you and your loved ones so you can move on faster and reincarnate into a better life.

-Also, there isn't a single "canon" of scriptures. Many popular gods don't show up in Daoist literature until much later. Daoist scriptures often came up with their own gigantic pantheons, full of gods no one had heard of prior to said book, or enjoyed no worship in temples whatsoever.

-In the same way famous dead people could become gods via worship, famous fictional characters could, too, become gods of folk religion——FSYY's pantheon was very influential on popular worship, but that doesn't mean you should take the novels as actual scriptures.

-Like, God-Demon novels are to orthodox Daoism/Buddhism what the Divine Comedy is to medieval Christian doctrines, except no priests had actually built a Church of Saint Beatrice, while Daoists did put FSYY characters into their temples. By their very nature, the worship that stemmed from these books is not on the same level of "seriousness" as, say, the Tiantai school of Buddhism and their veneration of the Lotus Sutra.

-At the risk of being guilty of the same insertion of Christianity where it doesn't belong: You don't cite Dante's Inferno in a theological debate, nor would any self-respecting pastor preach it to churchgoers on a Sunday.

-Similarly, you don't use JTTW or FSYY as your sole evidence for why something is "disrespectful to Chinese religion/tradition" when many practitioners of said religions won't treat them as anything more than fantasy novels.

-In fact, let's use Tripitaka as an example. The historical Xuanzang was an extraordinarily talented, faithful, and determined monk. In JTTW, he was a caricature of a Confucian scholar in a Buddhist kasaya and served the same narrative function as Princess Peach in a Mario game.

-Does the presence of satire alone make JTTW anti-Buddhist, or its religious allegories less poignant? I'd say no. Should you take it as seriously as actual Buddhist sutras, when the book didn't even take itself 100% seriously? Also no.

-To expand further on the idea of "seriousness": even outside of vernacular novels, practitioners are not beholden to a universal set of strict religious laws and taboos.

-Both Daoism and Buddhism had what we called "cloistered" and "non-cloistered" adherents; only the former needed to follow their religious laws and (usually) took a vow of celibacy.

-Certain paths of Daoist cultivation allow for alcohol and sexual activities (thanks @ruibaozha for the info), and some immortals, like Lv Dongbin, had a well-established "playboy" reputation in folklore.

-Though it was rarer for Buddhism and very misunderstood, esoteric variants of it did utilize sexual imageries and sex. And, again, most of the above would not apply if you weren't among the cloistered and ordained clergy.

-Furthermore, not even the worship of gods is mandatory! You could just be a Daoist who was really into internal alchemy, cultivating your body and mind in order to prolong your lifespan and, ideally, attain immortality.

-This idea of "respect" as…for a lack of better words, No Fun & R18 Stuff Allowed, you must treat all divinity with fearful reverence and put yourself completely at their mercy, is NOT the norm in Chinese religious traditions.

-There are different degrees and types of respect, and not every god is supposed to be treated like the Supreme Heavenly Emperor himself during an imperial ceremony; the gods are capable of cracking a joke, and so are we!

TL;DR: Religions are complicated, and you aren't respecting Chinese religions by acting like a stereotypical Puritan over popular Chinese deities and their fictional portrayals.

[absolutelynotsanebaby]

Okay, so, I’ve been seeing this idea that Jay was completely out of character in Skybound and ngl been driving me a little insane so I figured I’d finally share my thoughts on the topic. See the thing is, Skybound is a very flawed season for reasons regarding misogyny and racism (<-- Nadakhan). It’s got redeeming features like any other seasons (I really like some of the concepts, nadakhan was a very genuinely intimidating villain, I like the pacing and action, the gis are literally so good) but of all its flaws, Jay’s BASELINE CHARACTER is not one of them.

Two of Skybound’s objectives are to A) pick at Ninjago’s earlier misogyny and B) pick at Jay’s flaws. Which I believe are insecurity, lack of impulse control, and not respecting boundaries like he should. Especially regarding Nya. The season goes out of its way to parallel Jay to Nadakhan (main season villain, man who feels very entitled to Nya’s body and person, amongst other things) and to Cliff Gordon (man who’s dating advice book said to literally lie to women). One of Jay’s earliest scenes is him asking if a kidnapped girl was hot, this decision and characterization didn’t come from nowhere! He’s obviously not evil or irredeemable because of those flaws either. There’s an entire scene where he defends Nya against outward, blatant misogyny and affirms she’s one of them. It’s one of the numerous scenes where Jay is shown behavior worse than his and I believe the motivation behind that is to teach him not to be like that, because he is a better person than that.

I understand the impulse to defend your favorite character but to entirely dismiss one of Jay’s defining seasons is just such a frustrating way to do it. Some people go out of their way to demonize or over-exaggerate his flaws, yeah, 100% but it’s not productive to overcorrect so harshly. Additionally, not everything about Jay’s characterization in Skybound is negative.

Skybound really hammers in some of Jay’s most heroic or positive traits. It’s especially clear during his “stay” on the Misfortune’s Keep. It proves that above all else Jay is extremely adaptable. It shows him withstanding Nadakhan’s mental games/torture because he grows to understand it, and in creative, smart ways figures out how to contact people, how to sew discourse into the crew, and nearly escape all on his own! Even off the ship, Skybound affirms that when put into the position with necessity, Jay can and will step up to leadership and do it well. All of this characterization is seen later in Prime empire if I’m remembering right, though I haven’t watched Prime Empire in a while.

But, back on track, to conclude while I get feeling frustrated I think dismissing a large portion of Jay’s early characterization and flaws in an effort to defend him doesn’t help, because it really takes away from other aspects of his character (that being everything I listed, and also his ability to change for the better) and all around makes him a less interesting character. I don’t hate Jay but I also don’t hate that he was or is flawed, it’s not an inherently horrible thing, narratively or otherwise.

[maenefa]

This kind of Denethor discourse is so frustrating to me that I am literally pacing back and forth like a panther in a zoo enclosure. Ugggggggghhhhh

A lot of people will tell you that the moral of The Lord of the Rings is “never lose hope,” and that Denethor is bad because he loses hope.

Please read THIS and THIS and especially THIS, which is one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking meditations on LotR you’ll ever read. Tolkien’s ideas about hope are so much more radical than “hope good despair bad.”

Denethor—Tolkien’s Denethor, not Peter Jackson’s Denethor—is unsettling because he tries to hope, but his hope isn’t strong enough to save him. Here are his thoughts on hope, just a few days before his death:

The time will not be long. In what is left, let all who fight the Enemy in their fashion be at one, and keep hope while they may, and after hope still the hardihood to die free.

Denethor has a more “realist” worldview than Gandalf or Faramir, but he’s not a nihilist. He’s still hanging onto hope even though he’s grieving Boromir and he’s positive that Frodo is going to be captured by Sauron. He only breaks when Faramir is mortally wounded and he sees the black ships in the palantir. And I don’t mean he gives up, I mean his mind snaps:

And as [Pippin] watched, it seemed to him that Denethor grew old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and his stern mind was overthrown.

Tolkien repeatedly uses language like “madness,” “madman,” “he is not himself” and “his mind was overthrown.” It’s not subtle!

Denethor is having a psychotic episode. His culpability is reduced, either partially or totally; we can’t know for certain. But I don’t think that everything he says and does in his last moments is “the real Denethor.”

We can do our best and try to have hope, but sometimes life crushes us. How are we supposed to live with the knowledge that this can happen?

Tolkien was haunted by the idea of heroes who fail, heroes who are crushed by their burdens:

Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. (Letter 246)

….I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world – in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking-point. (Letter 246)

Tolkien himself tended to judge Denethor harshly, but the character fits very well into the same template as Frodo: a “sacrificial” person who is pushed beyond his limits. The palantir aged him and weakened his mental health, but what truly pushed him over the edge was the wounding of Faramir: Tolkien says that Denethor “maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son.”

It’s easy to judge Denethor for using the palantir (although Tolkien said that he had the right to use it and Gandalf admitted that the palantir’s knowledge had often proved useful!) but what should Denethor have done differently regarding sending Faramir into battle? We know that the defense of Osgiliath was necessary because Tolkien had the Rohirrim arrive at the exact moment the Witch King is about to ride through the gate of Minas Tirith. If Faramir hadn’t delayed Mordor’s army, the Rohirrim would have showed up to a conquered city.

Denethor believed that it was necessary to send Faramir to Osgiliath… and he was right! But the pain of being responsible for Faramir’s death was too great for him to bear. You can say that his craving for information killed him, but it’s just as accurate to say that his love for Faramir killed him.

Gandalf tells Denethor’s servants that they were “caught in a net of warring duties,” and this is also true of Denethor. His duty as a father conflicts with his duty as the leader of Gondor, and the strain destroys him.

It may be true that Denethor’s need for control is a character flaw, but I wonder about his final use of the palantir. His son appears to be dying: why does he leave his side to go look in the palantir? I actually think this was a hopeful act: Denethor was hoping to see the Rohirrim, or some kind of good news about the war, some indication that Faramir’s death would not be in vain. But the palantir shows him that he sent his son to die for nothing.

It’s the tragedy of Denethor lamenting “I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril” and dying before he can learn that the battle wasn’t needless… you can’t reduce this tragedy to a morality play!

Okay, I can’t deny that the palantir is a very topical analogy for the internet/smartphones/the tyranny of “data” in general.

But Denethor is so much more than a blackpilled internet doomer, and I will defend him forever.