#which i know is like. the thing of sansa's pov lol

[atopvisenyashill]

Feed my delulu bestie… Sansa & Theon book canon??? Your posts give me hope when I shouldn’t have it lol.

there's so much canon evidence dammit! i always get a lil put out when people say it’s a show only thing. certainly the show made it more popular but you can say that about like 90% of the ships in the fandom! and there’s a lot here already without the obnoxious sansa bolton show arc!

For one thing, theon straight up dreams about marrying sansa-

Sansa was the pretty one. He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard Stark might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fancy.

I think this is very similar to Sansa’s fantasies about Willas Tyrell-

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

For both of them, they dream of a marriage that signifies a return to the safety and welcoming of childhood, of home. Notice the focus for both of them on Stark Identity - Theon wants to be accepted as true kin by the family that raised him in an attempt to cope with his status as a hostage while Sansa focuses on the idea of having children named for her lost family members in an attempt to cope with her continued instability also as a hostage.

Which brings me to their shared status as child hostages! While not a unique social status in the world of Terros, they are unique in being our only two PoVs that really dig into the harm of being a hostage. From Theon’s longing to be a Stark and the way it's held against him by Balon to Sansa’s longing to be Joffrey's queen turning to resentment over being “made a Lannister”, both of them go from a sort of rose colored happy go lucky outlook to an extreme drop into brutal reality as Theon reckons with his trauma while sacking Winterfell and Sansa is shoved head first into the danger of politics and intrigue.

As their time as child hostages morphs into a status that is more murky but considerably more dangerous - who knows what the fuck Littlefinger is planning, and whatever Ramsay has cooking it's obviously nothing good - both of them take on another identity in Alayne Stone and Reek. They are both forced into this identity by the person in control of them, becoming subsumed into this new identity. Here is, imo, a very interesting aspect of both their characters as they exhibit a sort of...mental break of a sort when they change identities. They "kill" their old identities and truly become this new person; they act different, they speak different, they actively reject reminders of their former identity, with their chapter names even changing from "Theon" and "Sansa" to their new names. And yet that former identity is a key part of who they are and it cannot stay buried for long-

I am not your daughter, she thought. I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell. She did not say it, though.

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek."

Again, both Theon and Sansa focus on their connection to House Stark - Sansa as the blood of Winterfell, Theon as a ward of Ned. For Sansa, it’s about going to the home she took for granted, the home Theon years for; a place she felt safe, a family that loves her, a space she can reflect on her memories and grief with peace and understanding. For Theon, that home never existed at all! It was something he made up in his head, cobbled together from half remembered feelings of love from his mother, a dream of what it might have been like to be an older brother and beloved son. Ultimately, Winterfell and the North represents to both of them the concept of reconciling reality with the dream & delusions they’ve built up in their minds, taking a step forward and growing into adulthood.

Now….the thing about adulthood is it typically involves marriage and that is something I think a lot of people don’t take seriously when it comes to Theonsa - oh theon is too gross or whatever. But the thing is that Theon experiences this kind of sexual violence and helplessness that he himself visited upon others and enabled and I think it puts him in this interesting and unique place of finally understanding a) how gross he actually is and b) connecting to Sansa through a shared sexual helplessness. Now I’m not saying like, ~theon being reek’ed was narrative setup and punishment for theonsa~ but i AM saying this is a natural stepping point (imo) of Theon’s arc.

Think about like. Theon looking the other way while his men rape the women he’s captured, uncomfortable but feeling like this is what is necessary to be seen as A Man (and pay no mind to what they means To Be A Woman). Bedding down with the miller’s wife just to enable the very brutal murder of her sons. Taking his frustration and powerlessness out on Kya sexually. And Kya still tries to escape with him (who else could have possibly helped her?), and he dwells on the ways in which he helped lead her to her death. Dwells on the boys whose bodies he hung on the walls. Dwells on the similarities between his own falling apart body and Jeyne’s bite marks and injuries from Ramsay. For me the next step is - Theon forced to see his own helplessness as a hostage of the Starks and then a captive of Ramsay’s when he confronts Sansa, who was a hostage of the Lannisters and [wild gesture] like the kept pet of Littlefinger’s. I think seeing his own suffering so acutely reflected in the girl he projected his idealistic fantasy of happiness and home onto would be fascinating!

And equally fascinating is Sansa’s perspective - I’m sure she WILL initially see his torture as some sort of cosmic retribution for betraying Robb! But the same as she ultimately only saw another child suffering when Joffrey died in front of her, I think she will see that whatever Theon deserves for what he’s done, being flayed and tortured by Ramsay is not retribution, it’s just more suffering. And once she starts to see past her anger, Sansa too I think will be quite disarmed by the similarities between them. To have been a hostage, to have been some sort of captive under an identity forced on you, to have that captor use his power to force sexual situations you are not asking for onto you, I think it would make Sansa wrestle more with her own place In The System - similar to how being a hostage makes her realize how fucked up her conception of knights and chivalry and court is when compared to the reality, seeing the effect she herself helped have as A Good Hostage Taker will make her reflect. Theon realizing Sansa is her own person with her own inner life and Sansa realizing the same about Theon!

Once again, its about what I talked about re: Sansa and Arya being the only Starks left in Winterfell or Sansa and Jon meeting first! To grow up and embrace adulthood by growing to appreciate the reality in front of you and not the fantasy you conjured up as a child. For Theon to love Sansa for who she is and wrestle with the REALITY of what marriage would be like - both in a sense that he’s physically traumatized & no longer “handsome” but also like, having lived through the concept of “They will make a STARK out of me” and thinking about what it means in the context of sex and relationships. For Sansa to love Theon for who he is and wrestle with the reality of, like, herself in the Lannister shoes in this position, and what being an heiress and marrying actually means for her going forward. Two people who are defined by their identities being eclipsed and overlooked, wrestling with whether they’re repeating that pattern on each other or actually healing and grieving and figuring out how to define themselves on their own and not against someone else.

[esther-dot]

Lately I've been toying with the idea that Jon will indeed become king of the FF. It's the only reasonable ending for him, the only one that matches both Jon's show ending and Sansa's book foreshadowing (to marry a king, not a prince, not a king who had been). I think the show ending on such ambiguous (and bitter!) terms for Jon was decided because of the sequel. In other words, I'm considering the possibility that M. will transfer his 5year gap at the end, and we'll see them again at the end after some time will have lapsed and they'll be older and firmly in their positions. But, with this ending I'm afraid we'll only get hints of Jon and Sansa's romance on page, and nothing too explicit (although I guess that it might have a role in Daeny's death).

I think that, throughout the book, the famous "the FF don't kneel" is only meant to be subverted: they will kneel to Jon, after everything he has done for them, and he will probably settle them in the Gift(s). In my opinion, this ending is truly poetic. If ASoIaF is a fairytale, then the hidden prince does not become king because of his inheritance (which he has already foresaken just as he will reject the Targaryen inheritance: so vividly given as "I don't want it!" in the show, lol), but has forged a kingdom for himself, because he is truly worth it. I am not sure that he will go to the Wall because he will be punished, but regardless, he will become king of the FF. If it will be like this, then Jon's ending is the apotheosis of subversions.

And only as an equal will he be able to marry Sansa: when Sansa becomes queen, everybody will want her for her claim twice over, unless her husband is already king. I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.

And with this explanation I've made peace with the disastrously ambiguous ending of GoT.

I wish you'll make your peace too, Esther!

(old anon btw, anxiously waiting for your posts for years, and now this darn thing made take a name. So be it).

It's so nice to finally "meet" you @justleaves!

I like that reading of book foreshadowing and the mess GoT gave us. You know I can't agree with most of the fandom that we can entirely or even mostly dismiss the show's ending. Too much of it gave me that, "it was always meant to be this way" feeling and since the ending of the show, Jonsas have turned up a lot of foreshadowing for Arya sailing away, King Bran, Dark Dany, Jaime and Cersei dying together...so many things were kinda-sorta right, just presented so horribly they felt wrong!

I've always felt very weird about Jon becoming King of the FF, most of us Jonsas reject that out of hand because it really rubs us the wrong way, but I had a series of anons critical of Martin's handling of aspects of Dany's POV some time ago, particularly how he characterized the Dothraki, and I did go back to read/re-watch some interviews, and I've accepted he doesn't share our sensibilities there, or on a handful of other issues. I hadn't even realized I was projecting when I dismissed the possibility of a kid from a different culture becoming the leader of an indigenous group. To me that is inherently negative. But of course, at the time when Martin began all this, it wasn't generally perceived that way, and we have Mance so...

Right after GoT ended some of us speculated that not including the Gift was why they had Jon ride off past the Wall with the FF, while in the books, he might be responsible for the Gift, so I really like how you've blended the two. I've written before about how it would make sense to me that Jon rejects the Stark/Northern claim and then rejects the Targaryen/Southern claim, and is rewarded in he end for those decisions, and I think it would be a more satisfying resolution to the bastard struggle if he is chosen as a leader because of who he is rather than who his "father" is (whether we mean Ned's son -> KitN or Rhaegar's son -> Targ heir). The way Jon is of the North, has such connections to the Starks (whether as Ned's bastard or Lyanna's boy post parentage reveal) as well as his time with the FF, the understanding he has and care he has for them which others do not, well, it certainly sets him up as a great bridge between the cultures. A person uniquely capable of creating a lasting peace.

I also really like your idea of the time-lapse because a) Sansa's age b) allowing all these revelations time to settle. I can't rationalize how the cast of characters would accept Jon as the legitimized son of Ned, only to turn around and accept that actually he's Lyanna's son, and how they'd be ok with a Jonsa marriage immediately thereafter. And that's not even dealing with how he'll be perceived/the rumors that will be swirling around him post rez and whatever his actions are immediately after. Love it in fics, but when I think about it in Martin's words, hard for me to imagine, so the idea that in a few years after Jon has established himself they'd be able to marry, that makes sense to me.

I think this ending is foreshadowed in her ASOS, Sansa IV chapter: two castles in the sky, one black, one grey, become one in all the colors of spring. Note that this is something Sansa sees in the morning sky, meaning after dawn.

That is a beautiful reading of the scene! I can easily see that being the idea! The other reading I've seen on this is that it's the Jon and Sansa competing claims being joined as the solution to the Northern succession crisis (that may be @agentrouka-blog's spec? I'm not successfully turning anything up atm). I had actually written into the margins in my copy "sounds like Winterfell" by the line about a castle in ruins, and later in ASOS, we have back to back Jon and Sansa chapters that talk about Winterfell and have a weird number of similarities (link). But, specifically, the ruins/rebuilding idea seems like it points to Jon and Sansa's stories converging and allowing them to restore Winterfell together:

The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins. (Jon XII, ASOS) The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. She found twigs and fallen branches beneath the snow and broke off the ends to make the trees for the godswood. For the gravestones in the lichyard she used bits of bark. Soon her gloves and her boots were crusty white, her hands were tingling, and her feet were soaked and cold, but she did not care. The castle was all that mattered. Some things were hard to remember, but most came back to her easily, as if she had been there only yesterday. The Library Tower, with the steep stonework stair twisting about its exterior. The gatehouse, two huge bulwarks, the arched gate between them, crenellations all along the top . . . (Sansa VII, ASOS)

So as always, I see the pros, I see the cons, I can't make up my mind, but I'm ok with that. I have no problem talking about GoT/my frustrations when I get an ask, but after I wrote my post canon fic Free, I just...wasn't angry anymore. D&D's choices will always baffle me, I'm disappointed we don't have TWOW yet, but I enjoy the different spec, fics, gifs, and art we have in the Jonsa fandom, so as long as we're all having fun, I'm happy.

I'd love to read any other observations you have about ASOIAF and fairytales, I think posts about parallels with other lit are fascinating!

[agentrouka-blog]

so this is really random but coming from a non shipper (as you know lol) the ways in which arya fans talk about her reaction to jonsa has always baffled me. especially if we're talking about a scenario in which it's a political match in which sansa & jon don't really get a say like most other political matches. so idc really care about arya's hurt feelings or whatever when from her pov sansa is the one being forced into another marriage. "Oh damn you have to marry our brother I mean cousin even though it's the last thing you want? how can I make this about me".

like i wouldn't expect her to be happy about it but they just make her sound terrible here.

I don't really hang out in Arya fan circles, so I wouldn't even know how they treat the issue.

I do agree that this specific scenario would be a very unflattering look on Arya, though. By that point she would be more mature, I imagine, too.

That's not the scenario I suscribe to, though, so Arya gets some slack from me for being a tiny little bit aghast at first. :)

[branwendaughterofllyr]

What's the deal with these BNFs like JoLa and such lmao? Sorry I wasn't chronically online during GOT so I had no idea this was a thing until recently LOL.

Oh man, nonny, you are really taking me back. BNFs or “Big Name Fans” are one of the worst aspects of ASOIAF/GOT fandom in my humble opinion. I think the fact that there has been such large gaps in between books, a lot of fans are really desperate for content and thus BNFs are created to fill that need for new ASOIAF content, their word only being surpassed by George. Most BNFs have one or two good takes/theories that got them big and then are uniformally idiots in everything else they say, but the fandom takes them as gospel because they’ve been around so long or were right about one really important thing. A lot of the biggest of the BNFs originated on the westeros.org forums and actually interacted occasionally with George back when he still did stuff like that, and now are considered authorities on the series. The most successful BNFs are probably Elio and Linda who now actually work with George and co-wrote AWOIAF with him (and they’ve had their own very stupid drama that I cannot be bothered to remember. @starkmaiden probably remembers it though. She’s my go to fandom drama lorist)

A lot of the worst but most widely accepted theories can be traced back to a BNF, and since the books have been so slow in coming, these theories ended up just becoming part of the fabric of the fandom. It also doesn’t help that most BNFs are absolute divas that hate it when they end up being wrong or having pushback. I remember rolling my eyes at BryndenBFish who had particularly influential (but often very dumb) theories who I believe left the fandom in a huff and deleted all his stuff. The worst BNF fans in my opinions are the ones who made super long videos or podcasts about the most inane details (I’m taking specifically about Lucifermeanslightbringer here since I ended up listing to like ten hours of the Bloodstone Compendium trying desperately to understand why he was so popular)

On tumblr during GoT, most of the BNFs here were part of the asoiafuniversity account, (including the lovely JoLa) which branded itself as neutral but was decidedly not lol, and had particular drama with people who asserted the Dark Dany theory, which ended up being true, lol. I think they even straight up banned contributions that supported “Mad Dany” at one point. Most BNFs tend to be pro-jonerys, pro-Tyrion, pro-Dany, intensely into Targaryen history (and weirdly a lot of them were really into Stannis before he bit it. The Stannis the Mannis faction was crazy but also kinda fun lol) I’ve always been pro-Bran, pro-Catelyn, and pro-Sansa, so I never really got too into the BNFs, but I did accept that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany were the three heads of the dragons before I read ADWD because everyone else seemed to think that was the case.

And that to me is the biggest problem with BNFs, that a lot of them still espose theories and takes that they came up with before AFFC/ADWD were published and they refuse to budge even though there’s clearly been a shift. (This was before the show ended, which changed a lot of the fandom landscape)

(I also think that a lot of them couldn’t analyze their way out of a paper bag, but that seems to just be me lol. The POV trap is very real for most of these people.)

I’ve also noticed that a lot of BNFs are also Wheel of Time fans, and sometimes use that series to theorize about the end of ASOIAF, which is uh, a strategy I guess. (I know George likes it and all but I think the series have very different vibes, and George has listed series he was drawing on and I don’t think WoT was on that list. Somebody somewhere compiled it, and I think LoTR and The Dragonbone Chair were on it.)

The greatest hits of the BNFs in my opinion are that Tyrion, Jon and Dany are the three heads of the dragon and are going to save the world, which was widely accepted as the ending to the series, by pretty much everyone who was anyone. Season 8 killed that stone dead though, big lol from me. Some people still believe it though for some reason. Some three heads of the dragon propenents also believed it in conjunction with the “Tyrion is secretly a Targaryen” theory which has like one piece of actual evidence, that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and the weight of Tyrion is Tywin’s son thematic narrative against it.

My favorite offshoot of the three heads of the dragon theory is the curtain of light one, which is simply *chef’s kiss* Basically the curtain of light that Bran sees at the edge of the world is entirely literally and in no way a metaphor, and Bran will have nothing to do with it. Instead, Jon and Dany are going to fuck in the curtain of light to save the world while Tyrion awkwardly watches, and the baby they conceive will be the messiah. AMAZING stuff right there. And because this brilliant take was thought up by a BNF, it actually gained a fair amount of traction.

Other highlights include screeching about the “Main Five” in which they only grudgingly include Bran in order to exclude Sansa from having any relevance to the big endgame, that Catelyn is an absolute bitch responsible for all evils in the world, that Tywin is the biggest mastermind in Westeros, that f!Aegon is definitely fake with no room to debate, Val will be plot relevant to Jon somehow (as his future Queen for those who aren’t super into Jon and Dany endgame), Stannis will take WF, Jaime is going to be redeemed, and Azhor Ahai is some eleborate metaphor for the nature of the universe.

Say what you will, but BNFs really did fill some of the content void while we all wait for TWOW but a lot of them were absolutely batshit and their insane takes were taken extremely seriously by most of the fandom. Some of them even did rounds at conventions I believe. There are some BNFs still around and kicking but a lot of them left permanently after the show ended, which fair enough. The meltdowns during s8 were spectacular and many. Almost makes up for how shitty the show’s writing was lol.

My pet BNF was JoLa, and I even had some civil interactions with her about non Jonsa metas, related to her one good contribution to the fandom, the Dead Ladies Club. She had some of the wildest takes about Dany despite her constantly claiming she wasn’t that invested in non-Lannister theories and ships.

The BNFs were a fascinating phenomenon that you really had to experience in real time to get the full breadth of insanity. The most crazy takes being taken as basically canon really made me feel like I was losing it, or straight up reading different books.

[lycorim]

Ask game!! Here's: 11 & 17?

(what fic or piece of art are you proud of making?, the thing in canon that everyone loves and that you also love)

11- I am proud of a lot of my art, but if I had to pick one piece it’s this one, which I lovingly call Daenerys Piece (to date, my only Dany art, which really needs to change lol). It took me just under a year to finish (on and off bc I’m a procrastinator) and in a way I see it as the culmination of my art education. A close second is this comic adjacent thing that I still really like.

17- gee, this might be the hardest question on the list, mostly because I don’t know if there’s any one thing in canon that everyone likes. This is going to sound corny and basic, but… the characters. The points of view. The way Tyrion’s chapters are so misleading and conniving that they actively confuse the reader until Martin finally wants you to know what’s going on. The way Sansa and Ned talk around their emotions to themselves, so that it’s only upon a second read that you actually get what they are saying. The POV trap that is Theon Greyjoy. Brienne. Cersei. The way the we only learned that she really genuinely believed she had seduced Ned by lamenting about her incestuous tendencies several books after it happened. Everything about Cersei. I could go on and on, but it’s that stuff that I always gush about when the books come up in conversation. Maybe it’s cheating to say that the characters are my favorite part of a character-driven story, but idk man Martin went fucking hard when he chose to write for over 20 points of view and kept them all distinct. Also Lady Stoneheart because the moment she was introduced took me OUT. On my work break no less! I should get workers compensation.

(The ask game)

[cellsshapedlikestars]

Great chapter, as always!

Jon really sucks at picking up clues and he is really concerned about what Robb might think about him and Sansa dating. The man didn't pick up the clues that Sansa might want something more with him, although Sansa could also have told him more directly.

It seems that after the summer party, she decided to move from Jon and started dating Harry. The interaction between them at the holiday party was great and it seems that Jon is still thickheaded to not realise that Sansa wanted something serious with him. He was so in his head about her being way out of his league, that he missed the signs that she was really interested in him. It was also interesting to see that Margaery knew about him; I'm guessing that Sansa told her, right? I am curious to see how will things end between Harry and Sansa.

Will Jon and Sansa have an actual, direct conversation about their feelings and the relationship between them and what they would want from each other?

I'm going to assume the second ask is because of a very similar comment I got on the chapter lol.

The fic is not focused on their individual lives and so we aren't going to get much of that at all. But I also think people are making Jon a bit more kicked puppy than he actually is. He's aware of the class differences but he also isn't lamenting it on the whole. He thinks about it once in a negative way in regards to Harry. And yes, he picked his major for practicality, but he doesn't express any passion that he had to give up, because he doesn't really have one. I got my degree in Finance because I'm good at math and knew I needed a degree, which is exactly what I wrote Jon doing. What is that degree doing? I dunno, it's somewhere, I'm certainly not using it. I found a job that I really enjoy and am passionate about without that finance degree. And you know what? I work with a girl who went to college for something she was passionate about, and we both ended up at the same job that has nothing to do with either of our degrees. Both of us are perfectly happy here. A college degree does not define someone's life or happiness and I think people lose sight of that. Jon will be perfectly fine with or without Sansa.

Sorry, you got the rant bc that ao3 comment slightly annoyed me when I got it tbh. Not for commenting that they hope Jon has personal happiness without Sansa, it was just the tone of the comment. Yours did not bother me lol. I'm glad you could at least get the subtext in the chapter. I have a comment or two from people that seem to fall into POV traps reallyyyyy easily and I never really know how to respond to that. I have people commenting that Sansa is using Jon & rubbing Harry in Jon's face and treating him bad and I'm like... did you read the chapter? Where Jon is the one dismissing them as just hooking up? Where he literally calls her, to her face, "Robb's little sister" right after they hook up? Of course she thinks it's just sex for him.

You hit the nail on the head that Jon is oblivious and Sansa isn't saying what she really wants. Other commenters also got it right that she is not as confident/sure of herself as she presents.

Anyway, I've rambled long enough I think. I haven't been responding to comments on this story bc it takes some pressure off, but now I feel like I have to respond to some. But then I feel bad not responding to all???

[elegantwoes]

Are you the same elegantwoes on asoiaf reddit?

Because if so, I saw your recent response to that user CL. I have been apart of that subreddit for years and MY GOD they have the weirdest takes on Sansa! It gets even weirder because they present it so coolly and detailed and yet if a person were to actually think about it, they would see this person's takes are straight up unhinged. This is not a matter of opinion. It is unhinged when you seriously believe that someone who pulls the shit Tyrion does and is still a good person????

It is even more DISGUSTING that they call Sansa's molester (because yes, Tyrion did assualt her) a hero and in contrast Sansa's heroism is up for debate??? Fuck right off. Like even if you don't consider her a hero, you do not get to call her molestor/potential rapist, the man who married her who would know full her brother would have to DIE for him to get WF etc, a hero!

I think what upsets me even more is that I know this poster is a HUGE Arya fan and because of that I KNOW they would not be overlooking Tyrion's behaviour if he acted the same way to Arya - ie forcing her to undress while she's terrified and touching her breasts. I can guarantee you they would not be OK with Arya being forced to have Tyrion's children, is what both Tywin and Tyrion wanted - too bad Sansa interfered with those plans LOL.

Finally I think it's really telling that they haven't responded to any of the points you made. Because they can't.

Yes I go by the same username on Reddit. I know which comment you’re specifically talking about. When I read it for the first time I needed time to recollect my thoughts. I was that speechless. Imagine calling Tyrion Lannister, after everything he has done, a hero. He is by far the darkest grey among all POV characters. GRRM has called him a villain. What is there to argue against that. Meanwhile Sansa is both explicitly and implicitly called a hero. GRRM said the Starks are heroes - which includes her. He agreed with the statement that Brienne is basically a Sansa with a sword and according to him Brienne is the most morally pure POV character. Sansa who is GRRM’s fairy tale heroine. Sansa who is patron saint coded. That Sansa Stark isn’t a hero? Anyone who says such thing is not arguing in good faith.

[wandering-scavenger]

I think in contrast to Show Daenerys, I feel House of Dragons is portraying Rhaenyra as deeply flawed person. I am for it, she actually does get nuance and but at sametime you see where she is leading towards her own downfall both morally and literally.

Hello anon!

I do agree with you to an extent. However, I think it is mostly that Rhaenyra's opponents are given more nuance which allows us to understand that she herself is flawed.

Game of Thrones did portray Daenerys as a flawed person, as early as season 2 we see how her answer to opposition was almost always violence (i.e. threatening the Lords of Qarth that she'd come back to burn them all if they didn't allow her and the Dothrakis to enter) and that she makes promises based on her dreams rather than reality (i.e. asking for their ships to retake Westeros without offering a concrete reward in return for Qarth and having no solid evidence that Westeros was waiting for her return). The thing was, much of Daenerys' journey pit her against characters that the audience didn't care about or even know enough about to be invested in. If I recall, this was a deliberate choice on GRRM's part because of the eventual intention of pitting her against other asoiaf main characters. Because she was pit against slavers, rapers and other supposed men who only wanted for power and riches, she always seemed like the underdog to root for.

However, they even made it explicitly clear in Season 5 that she had issues with her Targaryen exceptionalism and deluded sense of having a moral high ground. This was seen when she was in the fighting pits with Hizdahr debating over the savagery of having men fight to the death for entertainment. Eventually, they come to this exchange:

Daenerys - One day your great city will return to the dirt as well.

Hizdahr - At your command?

Daenerys - If need be.

Hizdahr - And how many people will die to make this happen?

Daenerys - If it comes to that, they will have died for a good reason.

Hizdahr - Those men (the fighters) think they are dying for a good reason.

Daenerys - Someone else's reason.

Hizdahr - So your reasons are true and theirs (the fighters) are false? They don't know they own minds, but you do?

D&D's issue is that once it got to seasons 7-8, they were so invested in the "shock value" of Daenerys burning KL that it came at the cost of actually taking the time to have other characters besides Sansa Stark speak against Daenerys' actions from the start. Even worse, much of the heroes' POVs were always in relation to Daenerys without giving enough emphasis to their personal thoughts and motivations (*cough*jon*cough*), which then painted anyone who opposed her as automatically in the wrong (at least until she burned KL). But the truth is that Daenerys was a deeply flawed person relatively from the start. It was only when she was pit against the Starks that some people actually noticed those flaws and thought "hmm, maybe this isn't okay?" Emphasis on *some* because we still have a massive number of people who think she was done dirty lol.

Rhaenyra is more clearly viewed as a flawed person because the hotd showrunners took care to give nuance and explore the fears and motivations of characters like Alicent and Criston, which I am all for. There's still a ton of people who think she's precious and can do no wrong, who are likely the same people who view her as a proxy for their Daenerys hang up hahaha.

I really thank Condal and Sapochnik for having more respect and care for the hotd characters than D&D ever did for the asoiaf characters.

I can't wait to see how everything continues to unfold. While I sympathize with Alicent and her motivations more, I definitely enjoy Rhaenyra and sympathize with her as well.

[ziskandra]

Fic Round Up 2022: Questions and Stats

I posted the actual list of fics in a separate post to keep things from getting too unwieldy! I produced 38 written works across 10 fandoms this year, which means that despite writing less than 2021, I actually dipped my toe into different waters! Thank you @queenaeducan, @mxanigel & @little--abyss for the tags! 💖 Now, onto the questions. Words posted: 68,731

Additional Words Written: Probably another 10k or so all up scattered across various half-written exchange treats...

Highest Kudos: At 69 kudos (nice) it's White Noise, my first, and so far only, foray into Hot Fuzz fic! Definitely could be tempted to write some Butterangel again. 🧈👼 Highest Kudos to Hits ratio: Possibly because of recency bias (it hasn't had time to accumulate more hits!), but it's with no place to go, the angsty Franziska ficlet I posted just before Christmas this year! (That being said, there are a few fics of mine with less hits, so I think it's doing well regardless 🥰)

Highest Hit Oneshot: two in the bush, a Cersei/Sansa fic I wrote for nonconathon this year. Never underestimate the power of porny fic in a large fandom: this work received four times as many hits as the next fic on the list (which was Kristoph/Phoenix hatesex).

New Things I Tried: I did a lot more drafting and rewriting and starting things earlier than I have in the past, and I think it's really improved the quality of my writing, and I've found that I actually quite enjoy it? Surprise, surprise, this was the first year I tried writing after starting ADHD meds 😅 (the autism really takes over once I can actually focus, lol.)

Fic I Spent the Most Time On: All's Fair, the arranged marriage Meresino fic I wrote in an exchange for @venatohru! I kept wanting to add things to it, and then a whole actual plot evolved that I had no hope of actually completing in the time allocated, so I had to then rework the actual fic I submitted to be properly standalone and ahh. It was so much fun, though! Still working on that sequel...

Fic I Spent the Least Time On: Funnily enough, also an exchange gift for @venatohru! This time, an Ace Attorney twincest fic, (be)longing. I literally sat down, wrote the first draft in forty minutes, and when I looked over it again a few days leter to edit, discovered it didn't really need much improvement!

Favorite Thing I Wrote: Basically anything from Orsino's POV, which is still a massive surprise to me. Here's a couple of my favourites. From Precipice:

And Orsino was so, so tired of losing more of his own to the crushing oppression of the Gallows. It had been bad enough when he had been an apprentice, templars breathing down the necks of those who didn’t learn fast enough, or conversely, those with too much ambition. Only those who were able to adequately toe the line between these two different types of danger had successfully escaped notice.

Fortunately, Orsino’s childhood in the alienage, what little of it he remembered, had served him well when it came to knowing when to keep his head down and when to speak up. Make too much noise, or too little, and one could disappear.

It was why his parents had said nothing when the templars had come for him. Better the Gallows than the alienage, better this than dead.

He’d always held onto the hope that so long as he lived to see another day, he might one day bear witness to a better world, and perhaps even be granted the chance to help shape it himself.   

Only here in the Gallows would he, an elf, a mage, an elf and a mage, be granted such an opportunity. Only in this unique set of circumstances could Orsino be the kind of man who might ascend to the ranks of First Enchanter.

It hadn't mattered that no-one else had wanted it, that the chalice was tainted, nor that he had most likely signed his own inevitable death warrant. In the absence of a silver spoon in his mouth, or indeed, any spoon at all, Orsino would always make do with whatever scraps of success he could scavenge.

But also the entire masturbation scene in end and the beginning, wherein Meredith becomes an unwilling passenger in Orsino's body after The Last Straw and nobody's truly having a great time. A tinier snippet because I don't want to make this post too nsfw:

Meredith had known that someone like Orsino would find her actions indefensible long before the red lyrium had entrenched itself in the recesses of her mind, promising her the power to fix everything she had broken, the ability to save everyone she had failed —

I suppose, Orsino interrupted, dead is a type of safe.

Favorite Thing I Read: My reading tastes are wide and eclectic! (I've actually been working on a small project to do themed fic recs, starting with weekly DA recs, so keep an eye out for that!) If you're really burning for recs right now, my bookmarks are pretty reliable!

Writing Goals for 2023: I'm actually hoping to write less and read more. (Both in fandom and otherwise.) 😅 I'm planning on doing less exchanges and working on more of my own fic ideas.

Tagging: @ineffableaz, @venatohru, @darethshirl, @bogunicorn, @chocochipbiscuit, @syrupwit, @fandomn00blr, and YOU!

[redwolf17]

What do you think of these edits? (Warning, long lol)

Catelyn Stark -  Reunites with Arya, and receives confirmation that Rickon is alive and safe, and indications that Bran is as well.  Dies laughing as she manages to help Robb escape the Red Wedding.

Elia Martell-   Not only is Elia spared assault from Gregor Clegane by Jaime Lannister,  but both her children didn’t end up being killed in the sack thanks to Elia’s cleverness and Sansa’s weirwood timeline intervention.   Not only that,  but she eventually lives to see Gregor Clegane face justice.   Subverted in that Elia is still plagued with guilt and shame over what befell her fosterlings Gawen and Jonquil, the two children who were swapped with Rhaenys and Aegon.

Arya Stark -  Word of God states that although Arya has still experienced trauma,  she has been better off.   Reunites with her mother and older brother at Riverrun,  eventually reunites with Rickon at Winterfell,  and eventually learns of Bran’s survival and as of her last POV is with Sansa again.   She is also eventually freed from an unwanted betrothal to Hoarfrost Umber.   Subverted in that Arya suffers intense guilt for both Catelyn and Jeyne Westerling being directly and indirectly killed due to the Frey’s betrayal.  She believed Sansa hated her and that explained her not returning to Winterfell.   Character development shows that while Arya matures and does sincerely try in her position as the highest-ranking female at Winterfell with Robb widowed and Sansa absent,  her discomfort in this role is evident but still written without the character not falling into not-like-other-girls nonsense.   While she does escape this unwanted betrothal,  it comes at the cost of her own fertility with Part IV having Maester Luwin diagnose her with MKRH, a condition which inflicts the sufferer with no uterus.

Jeyne Poole-  Among the supporting cast,  Jeyne Poole is perhaps one of the best examples.  According to Word of God,  they wanted Sansa’s friend to have a much gentler storyline.  In the Weirwood Queen,  Jeyne’s father is still killed in the attack on Ned’s household and afterwards she is still sent to one of Littlefinger’s brothels to be “trained” this time along with Meri, a smallfolk girl from Sherrer Sansa took into her service.  Subverted in that the brothel madam Bel stalls on training Jeyne and Meri, rightly recognizing that they are not only too young but have been forced into this work by Littlefinger’s greed and Cersei’s indifference.    Bel then helps Jeyne, Meri, Arya, and Sansa escape from the city.   As of Part V,  Jeyne has spent years in a privileged and comfortable position as a lady-in-waiting to Arya,  something that other commentors have pointed out that a steward’s daughter’s would not normally be considered for in the ordinary course of things.   Thanks to everything they have been through together,  Jeyne and Arya are also now friends,  with Jeyne being among the women to console Arya after she finds out about her diagnosis.    Simultanteously,  Jeyne and Meri have been in a discreet but long-running relationship,  something that commentors have delighted in.    As of Arya’s last POV in the Part V,  the two have returned to the Riverlands with Arya’s retinue and also will reunite with Sansa soon.

Poetic Justice/Poetic Karma - Littlefinger sells Jeyne Poole's maidenhood to a paedophile sells word. Fortunately Jeyne escapes the city with Meri and the Stark sisters before that happens. Littlefinger ends up being killed by said sellsword.

Jorah Mormont sold people into slavery and lusted after a barely teenage Daenerys. After being exiled by her, he meets his end at the hands of a teenage slave.

Office Romance - Brienne Tarth and Deziel Dalt are an example of this, with both being sworn to Olyvar and Sansa. Over time, they become close and eventually Brienne accepts Deziel's offer of marriage.

I know there are a lot more obviously, lol. I'll add them when I get the chance or if someone else wants to, feel free to take my notes and update it.

I definitely agree the quotes section needs updating! Honestly each POV should get one IMO. The problem is choosing haha

I’m a little confused, because a lot of the edits at the top don’t have a trope/context?

Also, Littlefinger was killed by Bel. She framed a pedophile sellsword to whom she’d sold Jeyne’s maidenhead (after she escaped and was already out of town)

[snowsandstones]

Like when Sansa reunited with Jon, I feel like all the Night's Watch men for sure thought she was his sweetheart! The way Sansa burrowed into him, and Jon holding her tight in his arms, and the fact that everyone around, knew Jon has a thing for redheads and that he hadn't probably ever mentioned Sansa as a sister, to them... There might have been some catcalls and well-meant snarky remarks, which Jon definitely tried his best to stop, but Sansa for sure enjoyed it! Even though she pretended not to hear them.

Omg I know right!! Someone had a post zooming in on the people in the background because even the actors kinda play it like they’re unsure what to make of this. I mean canonically when has Edd seen Jon show this kind of emotion really?

Lately I’ve been obsessed with reading castle black reunion fics and my fave fave trope in them is when Tormund is like oh so this is your woman obviously because she’s kissed by fire I see you have a type LOL + I also love fics set from other people’s POVs like Davos, Tyrion etc because I just know it was painfully obvious to them (Tyrion being like….I’ve seen this film before 😭)

(on that note if anyone reading this has recommendations for these PLEASE lmk)

[hilarychuff]

for the fic writers questions: 3, 4 (fic choice up to you), 7, 12, 13, 41 & 42 :)

ty for sending so many!!!

3. What are some tropes or details that you think are very characteristic of your fics?

ummm they're very demisexual a lot of the time 🥲 nobody kisses until they're in LOVE love usually lmao. or at the very least a strong basis of "i love you as a person" before it gets to "i'm in love with you"

4. What detail in [insert fic] are you really proud of?

i think there are a lot of really fun easter eggs in howl!!!!!! there are lots of horror references in scream but given the sansa pov i sprinkled in a lot of romcom references in the first howl. in scream 2, the initial victims have names related to the victims from the first scream, so in howl 2, i kept that true to the ~message~ of the killer but pulled scream character names for the other bits of it. so like in scream 2, the initial victims are maureen evans and phil stevens — ghostface's nods to maureen prescott and steven orth. in howl 2, my initial victims needed to be references to catelyn tully and ned stark, so i named them tully prescott and eddard becker (like casey). also the moment when tyrion is talking about going on a talk show i changed it from diane sawyer to gayle king so it could be a lil wink to gale weathers. :)

7. Any worldbuilding you’re particularly proud of?

lmao the worldbuilding in all the right reasons (all the right places) is probably unnecessarily complicated for what the fic needed to be!!! obviously i did not create the bachelor world BUT i did get very into like. ok. steve is the bachelor. how did he BECOME the bachelor. how do i adapt his canon storyline. if he's besties with robin it's presumably after a fall from grace. and i pulled a lot of bachelor storylines to build that out like.

it's very much a combination of nick viall going on the show a bunch of times/being kind of a dickish runner up plus becca kufrin last minute swap sympathy arc plus nick viall paradise redemption to bachelor journey but i think if you look at it it really mirrors his canon storyline!!! also all the names of girlies mentioned of seasons past/present are names pulled from stranger things canon so that's fun too

but yeah i mean given that it's basically all back story before the fic even starts (also that it is secondary to the main chrissy/robin romance) it was really more just for fun and to make the world make sense to me of how we got here so!! i think it's interesting

the background targaryen/martell politics for the royal records (jonsa princess diaries au) was also fun and took me a bit to stump through before i was like ah ok i know why dany would now be seeking jon as an heir

12. Are there any tropes you used to dislike but have grown on you?

hmmmm. the only thing that really comes to mind here is like... omegaverse lol. it's still not really my thing (the animal aspect of it doesn't really have any appeal and scent glands in particular is a squick that i also simply do not understand like what are they supposed to be!!!) but i can fuck with the elements of it that's like. soulmate adjacent. biological irrepressible need to fuck RIGHT NOW!!! also this person smells great to me and everyone else is blech. lmao.

13. Are there any tropes you used to like but don’t anymore?

much as i love an au i'm not really into crossovers at all which i used to be much more willing to entertain. i'm a very like "this must make sense" type of reader/writer and it's a lot of logical leaps for me usually. i also used to be a lot more willing to entertain incest ship stuff (which was sometimes a necessity for jonsa) but i much prefer when that is not an element at play (so like a modern au where they're not related at all, or a canon interpretation where they know they're not siblings by the point they come to care about each other romantically).

41. Link a fic that made you think, “Wow, I want to write like that.”

i think i don't have the energy to really attempt this but i looooooooved chrissy and eddie's infinite mixtape from @little-scribblers-heart and especially loved how rosie included references for each chapter in the notes at the bottom. i thought it was a really cool way to incorporate either knowledge about the era or all the research put into it!!! the writing of the fic is amazing in general but i was always super impressed by the work that went into that aspect of it, too.

42. Have you ever received a comment that particularly stood out to you for whatever reason?

not to put her on blast but @beholdthemem will occasionally spoil me with gorgeous in-depth psychoanalysis about my characters and that always makes me go 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 whenever she has thoughts about something i've written i always know i am going to be given a very special gift!!!!!!! these days we're usually chatting over discord rather than leaving comments exactly (btw if anyone wants to be discord friends always feel free to hmu in tumblr messages) but it still counts!!

that said every comment means a lot to me 😭 especially if it is about how a fic made you feel or a lil bit you really loved or a lil bit of commentary on piece of it. truly i am fueled by comments!! motivated by comments!! and i try not to beg for them but i do need them to keep going!!!!!! so anytime someone takes time to leave a thoughtful comment know that i am thinking about it and going back to read it a couple of times!!

[melrosing]

We all know the end of GoT is full of loads of stuff that is in no way going to be book canon, but are there any small details that jump out at you that you think MUST have come from George?

Here's some things I think sound like GRRM. I've omitted a few others because.... have you seen the state of this fandom lmao. But anyway:

King Bran: I know this is essentially confirmed, but am aware that some fans still don't buy it... so just reiterating that I definitely do. I think the foreshadowing is all over the place in the books, it's just that it points more towards the 'fisher king' concept than it does the King Bran we see in the show - which is just a guy sitting in King's landing doing much the same as previous monarchs had done, only with fancy powers. I think King Bran in the books will have a lot more mystique about him, and will be about restoring the supernatural and the symbiotic relationship between lands and their people. Kind of the opposite of what happens in LOTR, where magic instead dies away and the magical races just gradually vanish

Also I think he will be 'democratically elected' lol, but in Winterfell. Catelyn basically spells it out all the way back in ACOK: "We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them." CAT IV, ACOK Obviously I think it'll be less about holding the Lannisters accountable (I think House Lannister will be largely dead/utterly depleted by then), more about just making sense of what has happened in Westeros and what is should become. I think Tyrion will also be instrumental in advocating for King Bran, they've had a connection since AGOT

Jon rejoining the Night's Watch and going beyond the wall: Controversial maybe lol, but I think this absolutely rings true for Jon. His arc starts with him trying to escape to support Robb, and his brothers of the NW reclaiming him and reminding him they stand for something beyond the politics of the south (or the relative south). In TWOW and ADOS I think Jon will be caught up in those politics and become utterly disillusioned with it all. He's spent his life craving recognition as a Stark, but I think honestly his true values lie beyond names and Houses with his NW bros - this is reiterated again and again in his POV. So the NW won't exist in the same way it does in the books currently, I think it'll be more a force to unite the wildlings with the country they'd heretofore been completely cut off from, and to help them rebuild what they'd been forced to abandon. I just don't see Jon ruling in the south or in Winterfell: GRRM believes in 'cripples, bastards and broken things', and I think Jon and his brotherhood in the NW is very much symbolic of that motif. I don't believe that means he'll be exiled/cut off from his Stark family, just that the wall and beyond it is where his priorities will lie post-series.

Arya might travel Planetos. I don't think it'll be what the show does where it's almost as though she's never coming back, or that she thinks she's somehow incompatible now with her own home. But basically just because Arya likes meeting new people and learning about their countries and cultures - I can imagine her wanting to do so on her own terms post-series. So I think that idea could easily have come from GRRM (D&D would've been more likely to just stick her in Winterfell as Sansa's bodyguard if it were up to them), but I also think her story is one of the more flexible - when GRRM recently said he'd thought of a new and very fitting ending for a character, I think it could easily have been Arya

Sansa will have Littlefinger executed. Hated how this was done in the show but was so relieved to have him gone lmao. Anyway i think the foreshadowing's there and honestly good for her

Cersei will be fucking around with wildfire. This has basically been broadcast all through both hers and Jaime's chapters, no way it's not happening

Jaime will wield Widow's Wail. GRRM basically confirmed this by having him wield it in those svudu cage matches (?) he did years ago. He'll fight in TLN as well

Jaime may knight Brienne? Have discussed the pros and cons of this concept before but ultimately I think it comes from GRRM

[shieldofrohan]

I say it again... if you keep giving the villains' side to the readers, they will be more interested with THEM and THEIR FEELINGS and THEIR STORIES (no one cares about Bran because he has like 20 povs in 5 books).

This is such a great point 👏 . From what I have seen in the fandom , people are just not invested in Bran's character . Once in a while you get to see an analysis on his character and that too in Tumblr whereas it's just not present in other forums . D&D are to be blamed for the way they took him out of a season and then later just wheeled him around before crowning king . But the thing is as you said even in the books , Grrm hasn't done enough work with him considering he is the fantasy protagonist and the endgame emperor .

One of my favourite character in the series is Jaime and in the fandom he is also someone people are invested in and it's interesting to see how much material we get to see of him after he is given POV status . As you said , giving more page time means that the readers will be invested in their character's arc regardless of whether they like them or hate them . Just in 2 books his chapters closely number to Bran's in five books .

Hello Anon,

Previous ask: XX

Other asks about this: XY , XZ

If Sansa and Bran weren't main characters then I would understand author's choice of giving fewer chapters to them but they are the MOST IMPORTANT ones according to his ending.

Like I said before Martin is (fortunately and unfortunately) too obsessed with gray characters. Because he can go both ways in extrem measure with them. They can do sth really fcked up but also can do sth really heroic. Believe me if Jon wasn't at Wall he wouldn't have these many chapters. Because Jon is not that grey like Tyrion, Jaime, Daenerys, Arya... He is lucky that he is the only POV from Wall.

In AGOT, we have Arya, Ned and Sansa in KL and do you know which Stark girl had the more chapters? SANSA. I know... shocking but also tells a lot (btw she has only ONE chapter more than Arya- Sansa: 6, Arya:5) because KL was Sansa's story not Arya's. Bran had even more (7) because he was truly a main character back then (Jon had 9 btw) with him seeing Jaime/Cersei, finding wolves, coma dreams etc

AGOT:

Jon: 9

Bran: 7

Sansa: 6

Arya: 5

In ACOK... things change a little..

Arya: 10

Jon and Sansa: 8

Bran: 7

Gonna pretend Arya's chapters were necessary (she didn't need more than 8 if you ask me...)

ASOS:

Arya: 13

Jon: 12

Sansa: 7

Bran: 4

(I understand people thought Bran was dead but come on... and 13 for Arya is just absurd and ASOS was Sansa's book for real... but then again hiding her POV was necessary for keeping Tyrion in the dark I guess... whatever)

AFFC:

Sansa: 3

Arya: 3

(why? Also lots of new povs)

ADWD:

Jon: 13

Bran: 3

Arya: 2

(why the fck she was in AFFC too then?)

AFFC and ADWD were supposed to be one book so:

Jon: 13

Arya: 5

Sansa: 3

Bran: 3

(lol even Arya suffered because of the new POVs)

Jon, Tyrion and Daenerys are the most popular trio for a reason as you can see. Even after the new POVs, they didn't suffer much...

ADWD:

Jon: 13

Tyrion: 12

Daenerys: 10

This is why people believe that these three are the ThreE HeadS Of thE gEcKo...

And Arya follows them behind because in total (minus TWOW):

Tyrion: 47

Jon: 42

Arya: 33

Daenerys: 31

OUR FUTURE KING AND QUEEN MEANWHILE:

Sansa: 24

Bran: 21

Tyrion is in the middle of every fcking thing and Martin loves writing his man-pain so he has the most chapters.

Jon has his own arc and he is the only pov of that storyline.

Daenerys also has her own story (I think Dany should have had more than Jon ngl).

Arya ??? IDK. Martin loves writing her. Her having more chapters than Dany is just stupid.

Sansa suffers in ACOK and ASOS because of Tyrion (oh the irony) and Bran suffers in ASOS because... idk- he is hiding etc.

I think the problem is that Bran has a very limited storyline. He has one purpose and very few people around him. And Grrm can't go too further with his visions because of spoilers. Still his story is more interesting than Arya's. It is funny that Arya is the real CaMeRa most of the time but whatever... we should keep pretending that her too many povs were necessary (there was no way for Grrm to cut things out you know... they were all necessary).

ANYWAY... Can Grrm mend this mess? Realistically: maybe?

ALIVE POVs:

ARYA

SANSA

JON

TYRION

BRAN

DAENERYS

JAIME

CERSEI

AERON

BARRISTAN

JONCON

ARIANNE

THEON

ASHA

MELISANDRE

DAVOS

SAMWELL

VICTARION

BRIENNE

AREO HOTAH

ESSOS:

Arya (Braavos)

Tyrion, Barristan, Victarion, Daenerys (Meereen, Dothraki Sea)

WESTEROS:

STORMLANDS: JonCon, Arianne

KING'S LANDING: Cersei

REACH: Samwell, Aeron

DORNE: Areo

RIVERLANDS: Jaime, Brienne

VALE: Sansa

NORTH: Davos, Theon, Asha

WALL: Jon, Melisandre

BEYOND WALL: Bran

THE MAP:

I made this map to see the last locations of POV characters (might be wrong so let me know). And according to this map, some POVs can be cut. For example:

Asha will tell Theon's story too -> fewer Theon POVs. And also we'll read about Stannis' North story via these two characters. And we'll hear about Ramsay too.

Brienne and Jaime are in the same place in Riverlands right now -> My guess: Brienne POV will be cut to keep Jaime in dark till meeting with Stoneheart.

Jon and Melisandre are at Wall and he is dead.. lol -> so Mel will cover for Wall story: Others, Watch, Wildlings

JonCon and Arianne are both in Stormlands and they are about to meet -> more Arianne POV is my guess. We'll see the foundation of Martell/Aegon alliance

Aeron and Sam are in Reach -> My guess: we'll read the aftermath of Euron's antics via Sam

Barristan is in Meereen, Tyrion is near Meereen, Victarion is on Meereen's Bay. -> I think we'll read the Battle of Fire from all of them. And after Daenerys returns from Dothraki Sea (Vaes Dothrak) with the ultimate Khalaasar her POVs will suffer because of Tyrion and others. And this will also help to author to keep Dany's established FireAndBlood persona in subtext.

Lonely POVS and my predictions (time to bullish*t folks):

Arya in Braavos -> No idea don't care... but my guess: I think we might read the Red Wedding 2.0 and Nymeria's pack's contribution via her (warging). She'll be in trouble with Faceless Men probably and she'll need to leave Braavos. I think she might come to Riverlands because her story is really intertwine with Stoneheart I feel like she should face the reality of pursuing revenge. After that she'll probably head North.

Areo in Dorne -> If I am not wrong he is after Darkstar with Obara and Ser Balon Swann. We might hear about Doran's plans via him but other than that I am not sure.

Cersei in King's Landing -> Kevan is dead, Jaime is not coming and there is no one to stop her. She is gonna blow up the sept, the death of Margaery, the alliance with Tyrells end... We might read about Aegon taking KL via her.

Sansa in Vale: Shadrich or sth else happens, she'll travel North with Brienne imo. She'll meet Jon at Wall and reunite with Jeyne Poole

Davos in White Harbor -> He will go Skagos to find Rickon. And after that he'll probably sail for Wall and after his arrival I feel like Mel, Selyse and Shireen will join Stannis because we know that he'll burn Shireen and we'll read these via Mel.

Bran: Some visions, warging, Bloodraven, sth sth sth, Hodor dies and they'll go back South.

TWOW and ADOS will have prologue and epilogue POVs.

We know that TWOW prologue will have Jeyne Westerling. So the book will start with Jeyne and others' journey to Crag (Westerlands). Nothing good will happen...

I really can't imagine the other prologue and epilogues. Sorry.

But there are some plots that is set to happen so make your own guesses for these:

Myrcella and Nymeria Sand and I think Trysten Martell will go KL and Cersei was planning an attack to kill Trysten on the way but she'll frame it like Tyrion did it (Doran knows this plan). It would be tragic if Myrcella dies during this..

Martin kind of said that we'll have a Casterly Rock POV. This could be a prologue/epilogue or maybe Tyrion/Cersei/Jaime in CR.

Red Wedding 2.0

ok... I am done.

So as you can see many POVs will be cut. Martin should use this to give more voice and build up to characters like Sansa and Bran.

WILL HE?? Fck me if I know. Hopefully.

HEY!! I love Jaime too even though he is a jerk, he just makes me laugh and I like his oaths dilemma. And yes look at how fans' approach to him changed when Martin made him a POV character. He is a villain and yet I care about his story because Martin is filling pages with him.

The more chapters he gives to a character more interesting they'll become to the readers. Simple math really.

Occasionally people become fans of very minor characters with sparse content BUT in those cases readers KNOW that these people won't end up as the heroes/protagonists.

So the author makes his statement with chapters numbers and so far Martin's: "Bran is the protagonist" statement doesn't match with his writing choices.

Let me repeat it again: I understand why he is not writing 30 sth Bran chapters. Because he can't reveal too much but while doing this he fails to make readers CARE about Bran. Martin should find a balance. In Sansa's case... he can remedy it more easily in TWOW and ADOS than Bran's case. We'll see. It is all about planning the story and shaping the reaction according to his statements.

Thanks for the ask, have a nice day.

[sansacherie]

“sansa’s feminity is defined by social constructs that the man made world created. its materialistic and performative and restrictive. it harms all women. thats not to say women can’t... enjoy certain aspect of it but the objective is female subjugation and that cannot be disregarded.”

There is just a.... lot with that statement.

First off, you can really tell that OP does not understand Sansa as a character (or girls like her) when they say her femininity is “performative”.  

Sansa’s interests in particular things aren’t her attempting to put on some kind of “performance”, it is a natural part of who she is. it would exist regardless of whenever she is canon Westeros or in a modern AU. Could you argue that Sansa has been shaped/influenced by the women around her (Catelyn, Septa Mordane, Margaery, Cersei) Yes, to a certain extent. Because Sansa “being a lady at three” (and going by normal developmental stages, would have been in diapers not that long ago) again suggests to me this is who she is inherently. Using words “performative” suggests falseness and that doesn’t work because a proper look at Sansa’s chapters would understand that her interests/desires/behaviour is sincere.  

Regarding her femininity being “materialistic” …. In that same post, the OP defines Sansa’s femininity as “fancy dresses, pretty embroidery, floral perfumes, dainty desserts, slippers on polished floors, music and dancing, love stories, traditional marriage, courtly intrigue, smiling when you want to cry”

I look at the statement above with OP’s own definition of Sansa’s femininity… and I’m like, where’s the bridge?

This is where you actually need to understand the words that you are using instead of just throwing them in to make yourself sound revolutionary.  The word “materialistic” means “excessively concerned with physical comforts or the acquisition of wealth”.

None of that really applies to the things OP listed.  First off, a lot of the items they listed “floral perfumes, dainty desserts, music and dancing” could actually be considered a form of self-care- that is to maintain “one’s emotional and spiritual health.”  Looking after yourself doesn’t just mean keeping a proper sleeping schedule or drinking water because self-care is unique to the person. Self-care is about that person making themselves feel good.  It is not materialistic.  

Let’s move onto “fancy dresses and pretty embroidery”.  I don’t think liking “fancy dresses” makes you materialistic. If it is, then why are so many Arya stans insistent on arguing that Arya actually likes dresses? Because being materialistic is defined as being “excessively concerned” so in other words, “overly, extremely” – so basically obsession. Sansa loves pretty clothes, but not to the point of being obsessed.  She understands the need for her to dress in simple clothing in the Vale, even if she resents it.  She was genuinely surprised by the dress fitting because Cersei neglected her clothes.

“Pretty embroidery” … I would argue (and somebody correct me if I’m wrong) but embroidery is related to sewing… and that’s actually a really important, practical skill that transcends class lines (something I’ve talked about before)?  People in Westeros – even the rich- simply do not have the luxury where if they were me, the local shopping centre is 10 minutes away by car and at this centre, I have thousands of dresses to choose from right then and there (if money wasn’t an issue) Instead, the clothing that Sansa and Arya wear (both at the beginning of their stories and throughout), as well as the clothing of Catelyn, Cersei, Arianne, Margaery, Daenerys, Beth Cassel, Jeyne Poole, to the small-folk (i.e. Pia) also took the time to make- but the difference lies in that Westeros hasn’t undergone a textile revolution where clothing can be produced at a mass-scale.  That dress Sansa wore for her wedding? Took weeks to make, and if something had happened it the day before- they would not be able to get another copy of it elsewhere.

Furthermore, there’s also the fact that sewing circles/doing embroidery together can actually be a way for women to bond, share conversations, perhaps hatch plans because it is done within a feminine space that their husbands/brothers/fathers don’t cross.

“Music and dancing”. How? Why? Loving music and dancing don’t make you materialistic.  Loving music and dancing- things related to the arts, is deeply human.  It brings joy to people, helps us to connect with others. People often use music as a form of self-healing. The same for dancing, which enables people to express and tell entire stories/send messages through movement.

Fuck off with this “materialistic” bullshit.

“Love stories”.

LOL, what?  How is liking love stories “materialistic”?

And if it is… then why are Arya stans also huge Gendrya shippers? (Which I also ship btw, although I definitely wouldn’t say I’m invested. I can take it or leave it.)

“it harms all women. that’s not to say women…can’t enjoy certain aspects of it but the objective is female subjugation and that cannot be disregarded.”

The issue with that statement is that it is IMO putting the blame entirely on women/girls who happen to enjoy these things naturally (for example, I like to wear pretty clothes because it makes me feel good) rather than the men in their society with the actual power.

Ned Stark might have indulged his 9year old with sword lessons but it is abundantly clear through his POV that he saw it as a passing interest. “She would tire of it soon”. Tywin wouldn’t even consider doing the same for Cersei.  Selwyn Tarth finally relented after Brienne broke three-four betrothals.

Sansa or any girl liking “pretty dresses, perfume, music, dancing, love stories” is not the thing driving female subjugation. You know what I tend to think of when reading the books? I think of how girls can be forced into marriages they don’t want/have their entire futures decided for them at the age of 11/12, be subjected to marital rape, queens being abused by their husband’s Kingsguard, a sex worker being murdered in bed, an eighteen year old girl’s virginity treated as a contest, that same girl being told by Tarly not to look to him for justice if she gets raped,  the fact that smallfolk women if Kingslanding had fallen would have been at most risk of violence/rape, the fact that women can be excepted to keep having more children even though it would be dangerous for them to do (Naerys, Alysanne)

Just… the amount of conscendation and arrogance in that statement (as well as the entire post) is staggering.  imagine thinking you’re writing some sort of feminist post only to degrade women/girls like sansa because they don’t fit your way of being. you do realize you are no different than the adults in arya’s life who keep trying to force her to be someone she’s not? smdh

[butterflies-dragons]

Just passed on my tl that post about Sam/satin/Sansa and that that anti reblogged your post to add that quote about willowy creatures 😭 and I have to remind myself that this is the same fandom who reads jon saying that only a monster would give a child to the flames something like that, followed by a daniela chapter where her dragon BURNS A CHILD and says “if they are monsters so am I” and still manages to believe jon will love this girl. But a willowy creature? Never.

Hello Anon,

This post? The ‘willowy creature’ quote was added to the original post (@istumpysk), they missed my addition I think...

They always use that quote to claim “Jon loves warrior women and ‘consequently’ he hates ladies.” That’s their "clever logic"... LOL

I wrote about the ‘willowy creature’ issue in this post:

Val

Repeat after me: Val is not a warrior woman. Again: Val is not a warrior woman. One more time: Val is not a warrior woman. If you don’t believe me, then read this:

However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a “warrior woman” per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not.

[Source]  

But you may say, ¿What about the “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” quote?

Well, as GRRM has stated many times, all his POVS are “Unreliable Narrators”. Being from a “warrior culture” doesn’t make you automatically a “warrior woman”.  But here is Jon Snow “deciding” that Val was a “warrior princess”. Once again, the contrast, the dichotomy in one single person: ¿A warrior like Arya, a princess like Sansa?  Not that Arya has ever fought in a war, but you get my point.  And Sansa was created following the princess archetype.  

I will show you one of my favorite Jon’s passages that will serve us to read “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair” line with a better and more revealing light:

I call this passage the “Jon -It’s nothing special- Snow”.  Or as we say in Spanish when we can’t get what we really want: “Al cabo que ni quería”, that can be translated as “I didn’t even want it anyway”.  Let’s see:  

"Oh, I learn things everywhere I go.” The little man gestured up at the Wall with a gnarled black walking stick. “As I was saying … why is it that when one man builds a wall, the next man immediately needs to know what’s on the other side?” He cocked his head and looked at Jon with his curious mismatched eyes. “You do want to know what’s on the other side, don’t you?”

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

—A Game of Thrones - Jon III

I mean… COME ON!  This is one of the most telling passages to know, to really know Jon’s true nature, and it’s very, very similar to the quote about “the warrior princess and the willowy creature that only brushes her hair”:  

They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

“Some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.”  Nah, it’s nothing special, I didn’t even want it anyway, not for me, no.

“It’s nothing special,” Jon said. He wanted to ride with Benjen Stark on his rangings, deep into the mysteries of the haunted forest, wanted to fight Mance Rayder’s wildlings and ward the realm against the Others, but it was better not to speak of the things you wanted. “The rangers say it’s just woods and mountains and frozen lakes, with lots of snow and ice.”

Do I have to say more???

Actually, yes, I have.

Jon Snow does really want a lady.  Jon Snow does really want to be a knight and rescue a maiden.  Jon Snow does really want a lady to love and be loved back by her.  Here some evidence:

Jon Snow wished that his mother were a highborn lady: “Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.”

Jon Snow wanted to be a hero like the Prince Aemon Dragonknight.  The same Prince Aemon that jousted in a tourney, won it, and crowned his sister and lady love “Queen of Love and Beauty”, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king’s mistress”.    

Jon Snow tried to comfort Gilly with courtesy: “Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower.”  “That’s pretty.” He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her”.

Jon Snow put Ghost between Ygritte and him and remembers that knights put their swords between their ladies and themselves, something that is straight out from the courtly love book: “After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword”.

Jon Snow imagined romancing Ygritte as if she were a lady: “If I could show her Winterfell … give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us”.

Jon Snow wished for a domestic life in Winterfell, with his wife and children: I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. […] I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. […] Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily”.

Jon is a romantic that called his mare “sweet lady”.

Jon Snow closer friends in the Night’s Watch are Samwell Tarly and satin, they are literally male!Sansas.

Jon remembers fondly Sansa’s more feminine and ladylike traits: her romantic nature, her courtesies, her singing.

It’s also worth to mention that, despite Val’s beauty and physical attractiveness, Jon Snow, once again, appreciates her being maternal and singing to Gilly’s son, but was turned off by Val saying she would kill Princess Shireen:  

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Once outside and well away from the queen’s men, Val gave vent to her wroth. “You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …”

“Greyscale.”

“The grey death is what we call it.”

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

Wait a minute! Val was “singing to herself” like Jon’s memory of Sansa “singing to herself” while brushing out Lady’s coat???

Where did Jon get this idea of “some willowy creature that only brushes her hair” from???  It could be from his half sister Sansa, a literal princess, now trapped in a tower, that always brushed her hair and even brushed out her direwolf’s fur???

“She had brushed out her long auburn hair until it shone” —Sansa

“Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone.” —Eddard

I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. —Catelyn

He thought […] Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. —Jon

And I also suspect that when Jon said this about Val:

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

He was remembering another pretty girl, princess like, next to a direwolf, looking as though they belong together.

A young beautiful girl, that everyone considers a princess, next to a direwolf??? 

Val is a beautiful young woman, Sansa is a beautiful young maiden.

Val has long blonde hair the color of dark honey which she wears in a braid. Val actually take care of her hair, enough to braid it, like Sansa that always brushes it. And if you google “dark honey” hair color you will find a variety of reddish brown (auburn) and reddish blonde hair colors.    

Val has high sharp cheekbones, like Sansa.

Val’s eyes are pale grey or blue.  Again the grey/blue eyes pattern…  

Val is slender with a full bosom, like Sansa.

So?

Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. […] It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself.

Think about it!

***

Thanks for your message ♡