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nightwingsgypsyrep · 3 days ago

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hello, i hope your day is going great

for my question, i like to hc dick as trans, how would that be influenced by his cultural/ethnic identity?

Hi, hope you’re well.

So, of course, I may not be able to answer fully, as I am cis, but a fellow-Showman friend of mine is trans, so I’m going to be basing my answer mostly around her experiences, as well as my general experience of other GRTSB peoples’ attitudes to transgenderism, etc.

Of course, this answer is not representative of everyone, but it is - as always - 100% true of my own experiences (and, in this case, the experiences of my friend)!

TW: quite upsetting and brutally honest discussions of transphobia and homophobia

It obviously goes without saying that all trans people experience some degree of transphobia, whether that is just scepticism or full-blown animosity. However, in the interest of being brutally honest, I do believe this is felt moreso within the GRTSB community.

I love my culture, and, of course, you can’t tar everyone with the same brush, but (at least in the UK), a bit part of the culture is tradition and isolationism. Ideas which would be considered outdated in gorja society are still very much at play, and considered crucially important to cultural identity: for example, the importance of marriage, modesty, etc. There is also the gender role aspect: whilst it is very normal for women to work in the family business, there is still a concept of ‘men’s work’ and ‘women’s work’ which really goes to define how many in the community perceive gender. In all honesty, those who do stray away from these gender roles are met with some backlash (hell, I am a fem-presenting, cis, straight woman, and I was met with backlash throughout my teenage years as I didn’t wear makeup, so you can imagine what that is like for queer, NB, or trans people!) The isolationism also has an effect here: most of us find our friendships and romantic relationships within the community, and don’t often attend school fully (it’s common to drop out after primary school, aged 11, to work, and even those who finish secondary school at 16 are unlikely to go to college or university), so there really is not much opportunity for the average GRTSB person to change their worldview on these things (of course, this isn’t the case for Dick, but may be for any other GRTSB people he interacts with).

Because of this, I do believe (and, certainly, my friend’s experiences do suggest) that trans people experience a heightened level of transphobia within the community. I think this may also be furthered by how we treat all elders as family, so they may even be more willing to be openly judgemental, seeing it as their right. My friend is a trans woman, and a lot of people have treated her like she is mentally ill. There is also a big emphasis on ‘dont ask don’t tell’, in the sense that a lot of this moral conservatism leads to the view that people shouldn’t be discussing anything to do with their nether regions - of course, particularly in the case of trans people, this goes beyond that, as being trans is a bit more obvious to the naked eye than someone’s romantic/sexual preference, and, in all honesty, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear a slur thrown their way. This can lead a lot of LGBT+ travelling youth to ostracise themselves somewhat from the community.

I do, however, have hope that this may improve in future. Whilst there is still a LOT of homophobia in the sense that people “hope their child is straight”, there is also a lot acceptance in the case of same sex relationships, especially in the past 30 years. Whilst 50 years ago, my uncle (who was a gay man) effectively left the community (even if he maintained a good, and healthy relationship with his family), my cousin lived his life as an openly gay man all the way until his death in his 60s, and this was never viewed as “a problem”. Similarly, I have a lot of cousins and friends who are gay or bi, and they are fully supported within the family and community, including milestones such as marriage and children.

In terms of trans GRTSB people specifically, it does appear somewhat harder, as even within GRTSB LGB circles, there is still often a massive case of transphobia. But, again, I’m choosing to be hopeful: my grandmother was a huge advocate for trans rights her entire life (probably aided by the fact that she was a proper old school Cockney, so really valued diversity), and increasingly, more and more GRTSB people are going to uni (thereby exposing themselves to the wider world), and exploring more left-wing politics, which I hope will lead to a lot more tolerance and support for trans people within the community.

So, in summary, I think Dick would experience a lot of transphobia from other GRTSB people. It’s a sad reality, and one I hope will change over time, but I do think it would be more likely than immediate acceptance and support from all. 😢

For more resources on GRTSB Pride, definitely have a look at The Traveller Movement’s page, and also organisations like Traveller Pride, who are particularly active on Twitter.

#tw: transphobia #tw: homophobia #transphobia #homophobia #romani dick grayson #gypsy dick grayson #carney dick grayson #trans dick Grayson

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nightwingsgypsyrep · 3 days ago

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So, I’m fairly certain that Dick’s middle name is after his father (in the same way that Bruce’s middle name is Thomas), but it wouldn’t actually fit the parameters of the tradition, which exclusively refers to naming the son after their father so they have the same first and last name, e.g. John Doe’s son John Doe, with the purpose of being instantly recognisable upon introduction (since most people don’t introduce themselves with their middle names).

Traditionally, they can have different middle names. There’s no explicit rule/tradition with middle names as there is with first names, but middle names (and often more than one middle name) are often used to honour relatives, often the child’s grandfathers (if they have a different name) or uncles.

So, imagine that Dick had a son. Under the tradition, that kid’s full name would be Richard John Bruce Grayson (or maybe something like Richard James John Grayson, if it’s a Dickbabs kid). The second son could be named whatever they liked, including the opportunity to recycle middle names as first names. (In Irish travelling culture, it’s also not unheard of for the eldest daughter to be named after her mother, but this is less common in girls as it serves no functional purpose as male naming conventions do. It’s also not really “a thing” in other British gypsy subgroups, as far as I am aware.)

However, it is common to use a different first name if a close relative has dibs on it first, for example. So, in theory, if Mary Lloyd-Grayson had a brother called John, and that John Lloyd had a son first, he’d have dibs on the name. And given how close gypsy families are, cousins are basically like siblings a lot of the time, so you can’t have two cousins with the same name. This would then essentially free you from any perceived obligation of the tradition. (Obviously, this is just a hypothetical to explain how the convention works. Dick is canonically named after Mary’s childhood friend, Richard, who also went by Dick, and who later became Raptor).

Obviously, this is just a tradition not a law, but it is one which is taken extremely seriously. In my own family, I can’t think of a single example of the tradition not being followed.

Feel free to delete this ask if it’s offensive or anything but I have a couple questions. For AU’s that change Dick Grayson’s birth parents (or give him an unrelated sibling) but still have him with Mary and John, how would this affect his identity as Romani/a carney? Would his relationship with the titans/batfam and how he defines that be influenced? Are there any specific stereotypes or tropes people should avoid while writing him? (Sorry if I used the wrong terms or anything)

So first, no one should ever be worried about being offensive - this blog is intended to help educate about my community and there’s never anything offensive about asking a genuine question.

So, this is a long one, and kinda branches off into the realm of “canon-compliant headcanon”, as I wanted to express my feelings on the matter completely and honestly, so it’s kind of my take of ‘if I were hired as a Nightwing writer, how would I represent these scenarios’, but hopefully it sheds some light on the culture in a way which is informative?

1. In terms of AUs wherein Dick has different birth parents, and how that affects his identity as Romani/a Carney… it’s funny as my dad and I were actually having this conversation the other day, about the idea of adoption within the community.

Adoption isn’t an unheard of thing in our community: my grandmother had two adopted siblings, for example; however, it is uncommon to adopt from outside the community (for example, my grandmother’s adopted siblings were biologically her cousins). In all honesty, I think this comes from xenophobia in both directions: local authorities see ‘gypsy’ and naturally peg us as inappropriate adoptive parents; whilst within the community, I think there is some apprehension about the thought of raising a non-gypsy child, as I think anyone adopting from outside their race would be cautious of. Of course, many of us are quite white or white-passing, especially in Northern Europe, but even so, I think many of us would be anxious about a non-gypsy child being excluded or ostracised growing up for being other - kids can be cruel.

In terms of the adoption of non-gypsy children, I can only really think of one example that I know of, and that is the case of my cousin adopting his gorja wife’s child from a previous marriage, so slightly different circumstances. The boy took his adoptive father’s name, and was raised as part of the family: living in a trailer in the yard, working on the fairground, learning the Romani language, etc. We embraced him as part of the family - I call him my cousin - but both we and he knows that he is, in fact, a gorja, not a gypsy.

The fact of the matter, at the end of the day, is that Gypsy/Romani/Traveller is an ethnic identity. Just as a white child adopted into a black family doesn’t become black, a non-gypsy child adopted into a gypsy family will not become a gypsy. The child will be brought up with all of the same cultural morals and participation in cultural events as a gypsy child would, as they’re family, and you’re not going to exclude family, but if it is known that the child is adopted (and frankly, given how close we are as a community, it would be difficult for it not to be known if a child is adopted), it will be equally known that the child is not ethnically a gypsy, and therefore would not be considered a gypsy. If that child married a gypsy and had a child, that child would be considered a diddakoi (half-gypsy), even if the adopted gypsy grandparents are fully embraced as the child’s grandparents.

So, in a world where Dick is simply adopted by John and Mary, he would not be considered Romani/a gypsy/a Carney himself, as those identities are explicitly tied to one’s blood, but he likely would still grow up immersed in the gypsy culture and way of life, with the same moral implications, ability to speak Romani, social connections, etc.

2. In terms of his relationship with the Titans and the Batfam…

If this is still the Adopted by John and Mary AU, I imagine his worldview on this may only be slightly changed. I tend to fall on the nurture side of the nature/nurture debate, so I believe that he’d likely fall back on whatever values were instilled in him by his still-very-valid adoptive gypsy family, but if he knew that he was adopted in the first place, I think it may affect how he adapts to his part in the Batfam, just the same as in how Jason did upon learning that Catherine was his adoptive mom.

If this is just normal Romani/Carney!Dick canon, then I do think his cultural upbringing would have an affect on his relationships. I’m quite unusually close to a lot of gorjas, myself - my best friend is a gorja, my sister is engaged to a gorja boy, I work a gorja job Monday-Friday (even if I’m still on the fairgrounds at the weekend), and have grown less close to my childhood friends who are also gypsies as our lives went in different directions. However, my upbringing still massively affects all of my interpersonal relationships. For example, I sometimes struggle to relate to gorjas (even those I’m closest to) as the morals I was brought up with seem completely foreign to my gorja friends (e.g. fighting is a big part of my culture, and there is a strict honour code of having a fight and shaking hands, whereas my gorja friends would be horrified if a fight broke out.) I also find that I struggle with romantic relationships (without going into too much detail, the purity culture is a big thing, and since in the modern world most non-gypsies expect a sexual relationship pre-marriage, it rather limits my options. On the other hand, whilst gypsy men may be more aware of my moral values, and accommodate that, I struggle to relate to them as we have different opinions in terms of interests and politics, since most gypsies in the UK tend to be quite traditional and right wing and I most definitely am not!).

I think this would be something which Dick would struggle to come to terms with, and I don’t think it’s something which would ever go away entirely. As someone who has interacted with both gypsies and gorjas, even the ways in which families interact with each other appears completely different, and I’m sure it would have been quite alien to Dick at first.

And then there’s the subject of little micro aggressions, if that’s the right term. I remember when, at 22 years old, I found out from a non-gypsy friend that apparently it’s common for gorja parents to threaten to sell misbehaving children to the gypsies, and I was bloody horrified. In Grayson’s Gotham Knights, Bruce continuously references ‘Dick’s gypsy temper’ and wtf Bruce? That’s so rude and needlessly racist? But at the same time, I kind of get it - as a general rule, it seems that gypsy and gorja kids are taught to deal with conflict in quite different ways, so I feel like that’s something you could HC for Dick (and something Grayson could have explored if she had known).

And then, as I’ve discussed before, I think it’s definitely possible to read a gypsy upbringing into Dick’s Titans days: there is one comic in which Dick discusses his anxieties about moving in with Kory whilst unmarried, and I think this is a valid anxiety which any gypsy making that move would have, as it would generally be considered morally apprehensible within the community, and by moving in with Starfire, Dick was in a way sacrificing that little part of his upbringing again.

I think, realistically, that the loss of culture is one which Dick would have definitely have felt, with little bits of it being chipped off all the time. From being settled, to being raised by a gorja man who doesn’t know anything of our morals or traditions or language, to how Dick would then come to interact with his friends and team comprised only of gorjas, and how even little things like the choice of words used in a conversation (for example, my grandad banned the words ‘great’ and ‘massive’ for ‘sounding too much like a gorja bred joskin’) would be obviously different, to even fully consensual decisions like willingly and happily having pre-marital sex, I think it’s very likely Dick would have felt each little bit of his identity and upbringing being slowly chipped away each time. And with Dick’s personality, I definitely think he would have felt a little bit of guilt about that - hell, I am still heavily involved in my community, and yet I still feel a bit of guilt sometimes if I do something considered ‘joskiny’ (e.g. dying my hair, or if I’m not working on a bank holiday).

I also can’t help but imagine Dick on big gypsy/carney occasions, and the loss he feels at not being able to participate. In Showman/Carney culture particularly, the bank holidays are central to our culture as these are our busiest work days as they’re the days wherein we can draw the biggest crowd, so I can imagine Dick feeling a bit guilty about not working on a bank holiday for that reason (and maybe throwing himself into Nightwing extra hard on those days to make up for it). Another interesting aspect of our culture is that, traditionally, weddings are held on Wednesdays in Back End (autumn, after the busy summer season has ended), as these are the days that most guests are likely to be free to attend (since Thursday is build-up day, we’re open Friday-Sunday, Monday is pull down and move day, Tuesday is fairground maintenance/travel to the event, so Wednesday is the natural day off - effectively our version of a weekend). I’m not sure if we’re ever given a date for his wedding to Kory, but if Dick isn’t actively close with many other Carneys at this time, and with most of his adoptive family following the ‘joskin work week’, it wouldn’t make sense for him to have to get married on a Wednesday in back end, and again I wonder if he feels a little bit of loss at that. Same goes for big social events: the annual dances, and attendance at the races, etc.

I definitely feel like his removal would have an effect on him - if not changing all of his morals, then definitely lending a small bit of grief, which I doubt Dick ‘Conceal Don’t Feel (Until You Crash Out)’ Grayson would freely express to his family, with the fear of being perceived as ungrateful.

3. In terms of stereotypes/tropes to avoid, there are a few which I constantly see which are just so irritating to me. These are as follows:

The overly flamboyant/feminine Dick Grayson - look, if that’s your perception of him as a character, go for it, but don’t use ‘he’s a gypsy’ to back up that interpretation. It really seems to stem from the overly sexualised exoticism we see in the media and it’s low-key a bit uncomfortable to witness.

The fear of ‘whitewashing’ Dick. My pasty arse is here as proof that white gypsies exist. It’s ok for him to be paler, just as it’s ok for him to be darker. I saw another TikTok comment of someone correcting someone’s fan art by saying that we’re from India so should be portrayed as dark skinned. My family have been in the UK since at least the 1500s, it’s kinda expected that various intermarriages etc would result in us being a bit paler. That’s how you get variations within the culture.

Arranged marriage. Not something I see in fics, a lot, but you would not believe the amount of times IRL people have asked me if we did arranged marriage. I’d be a lot less single if we did, babes. Also, on a similar note, getting married young - I do know a few who got married before the age of 21, but I’d say the most common age for marriage is 24-28, and 20 years ago it was probably 26-30!

Another trope that I see quite a lot is the idea of Dick having a ‘gypsy name’ (as suggested by Yoska - my number one op - in Grayson’s run). Obviously, I’m in the UK, so I can’t speak for everyone. It may be different for different subgroups in different locations. But, in my case, I only have one name. I don’t have a secret, second name in Romani. The only gypsy naming conventions I am aware of actually existing are: 1) naming your eldest son after his dad. This serves the practical purpose of allowing us to relate to gypsies anywhere across the country. For example, if I mentioned that my brother/dad/grandad is called John Doe to a random gypsy from Scotland when I am from London, it’s very likely that they will be able to relate in some way - for example, ‘Oh! John Doe! My missus’ cousin was married to a Doe, James Doe! Oh, that’s your uncle? Come inside my baby and have a cup of tea.’ B) it’s also common, particularly historically, to have a nickname. ‘Darko’ is a common one for women, but I’ve also got Chewbacca, Redshirt, and One-Eyed Polly (her name was not Polly), and Charlie (not his birth name) in my family tree. It’s a lot less common nowadays, but quite a few of the older generation still go by this.

The idea that we constantly travel and never stop. NOPE! This is often used as justification for the racist stereotype that we don’t pay taxes as we don’t have a home address, but we do! Our home address is often a ‘yard’. This yard can be on its own, or in a wider yard filled with other showmen/travellers/carneys, with each family having its own nicely walled, private plot. We usually pull in in the winter (known as back end/after back end), until the spring. We keep our rides, equipment, and trailers here, and tend to live in homes called ‘chalets’ (pronounced ‘shall-lees’. I highly recommend looking at Vanguard chalets if you want to see what these look like), which are all fully plumbed etc, and static. During this time, the kids in the family will attend a local school, and parents will either use the winter to maintain their equipment (and maybe go to a few winter dos, eg Christmas events), or may get a local job if they need to, though this is admittedly less common. It’s also quite normal for a big group holiday of some 50+ showmen to be organised for January, lasting sometimes 3 weeks, paid for using the money saved on bank holidays.

The idea that we all share our trailers with our coworkers. NOPE! Trailers are FAMILY HOMES. Gorjas don’t share their houses with their coworkers, so why would we? You may invite someone or be invited for a sleepover at someone else’s place, but as a rule, we will always have our own trailers as family homes (though some teens may have their own). So, as a child, Dick would live in his own trailer with his parents. As an adult, if he returned to Haly’s (like he did in Nightwing: Year One, and that one arc where he goes to Florida (I forget when this was)), he may temporarily bunk in with someone until he bought his own trailer, but that would be as a favour and he would be expected to establish his own home asap.

That we don’t have beds and sleep in hammocks. Nope! Most adults will sleep in a perfectly normal double bed, whilst kids may have a built in bunk bed, but we definitely have normal beds. We also have electricity, heating and running water for that matter (if we’re travelling, the electricity comes from a lighting set which must be turned off at 10.30pm so it gets quite cold if you’re travelling in the winter, and when I was staying with my best friend, we’d take it in turns in the morning to run out and switch the set on. We did have to either manually empty our toilets, or pay for them to get sucked before we moved though).

The overuse of the Romani language. At least in the UK, Anglo-Romani almost acts as slang. We tend to construct a sentence in English, and then substitute key words in Romani. It’s very rare to make a full sentence in Romani, beyond simple expressions or commands. And whilst it’s very important to know Romani, the overuse of Romani can lead to people laughing behind your back as it’s perceived as trying to hard.

Also, similar to the overuse of Romani in general, the specific use of daj and dat for mom/mum and dad. The first time I ever encountered these words were in a Dick Grayson fanfic, and since I am a gypsy who grew up speaking Romani, I think that says something. Again, it may be different for others - I can only speak of my own experience - but I have only ever called my parents Mum and Dad (never even Mummy or Daddy, as that is considered to be a ‘gorja-ish’ thing to say in my experience), and my grandparents were Nanny and Grandad.

The concept of a Romani accent??? Romani ≠ Romanian. Whilst it’s fully ok to HC Dick to have a non-American accent, there’s no such thing as a Romani accent. A traveller accent is a thing though - it tends to have a bit of an old fashioned twang to it, like a Victorian cockney street urchin.

The idea that Dick wouldn’t speak English growing up as he’d only speak Romani - as I’ve explained above, Romani isn’t functionally used like that nowadays. And besides, he’d need to know another language just to function in society.

The idea that Dick grew up inherently privileged. Not only is it a thing in Rebirth canon that the Graysons were quite poor, but it just doesn’t make sense to me. Even the richest carneys are still working class, and proudly so.

Another interesting thing, I think, is the representation of Dick’s cop era. Obviously, in canon, this was a way for Dick to attempt to fix the problem from the inside, and Dick rejects the opportunity to return to the police as he realises he won’t be successful in his mission and therefore there is no point anymore. In Seeley’s run, we see Dick be a bit more apprehensive about the police, and from a gypsy POV, I quite like this. Growing up, we’re taught to be quite untrusting of the police (that’s systematic racism for ya baby). I know of one Showman/gypsy woman who married a gorja man and their daughter became a cop, and they’re low-key shunned for it because it’s seen as contributing to a system which is inherently corrupt. And I just think this would be a fun, and not often explored, thing to bring in to people’s writing about Dick’s cop era, or even his relationship with the Gordons.

The confusion of ethnic Carneys and our staff. Just working on a fairground/circus does not make you a Carney/Showman. It’s an ethnic identity, and is defined by your blood. We often have hired staff, who the public confuse as gypsies, but they are not. The traditional term for these people are ‘chaps’, but today it’s considered more polite to simply call them ‘staff’.

Also - just a general writing tip: since circuses are often accompanied by fairgrounds, and any ethnic Showman would be culturally aware of this anyway, it’s worth noting that we have different names for a lot of the rides/stalls on the fairgrounds. Some basics include: funfair = fairground/ground, helter skelter = slip, waltzer = “walzzer” (still spelt waltzer), bouncy castle = funbag, bumper cars = dodgems, twister = twist, burger van = kiosk, coconut shy = coconut sheet (though shy is still quite popular in America), caravan = trailer, generator = lighting set/set, truck = lorry. This segment is brought to you by my once reading Dick say the words ‘bouncy castle’ and me promptly dying a little inside.

That’s all I can think of rn!

Anyway, dordy (😉), that was longer than I thought! I’m so sorry for making you read all of that, but hopefully it answered the questions in a decent enough way? Sorry for infodumping😂

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nightwingsgypsyrep · 3 days ago

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So first, no one should ever be worried about being offensive - this blog is intended to help educate about my community and there’s never anything offensive about asking a genuine question.

2. In terms of his relationship with the Titans and the Batfam…

3. In terms of stereotypes/tropes to avoid, there are a few which I constantly see which are just so irritating to me. These are as follows:

That’s all I can think of rn!

Anyway, dordy (😉), that was longer than I thought! I’m so sorry for making you read all of that, but hopefully it answered the questions in a decent enough way? Sorry for infodumping😂

#ask #dick grayson #romani dick grayson #carney dick grayson #showman dick grayson

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