#Algorithmic Platforms
Explore tagged Tumblr posts
Text
How to Make Your Indie Film Appealing to Global Platforms
At the heart of every negotiation between an indie filmmaker and a global streamer lies a simple tension. They want audience reach. You want artistic truth. Streamers are in the business of retention, not revolution. They’re looking for titles that drive watch time, reduce churn, and feed their algorithm-friendly categories. You’re probably telling a deeply personal story that doesn’t fit neatly…
#Algorithmic Platforms#Audience Engagement#Film Distribution Strategy#Film Industry Insights#Film Marketing#Global Streaming#Independent Cinema#Indie Film Pitching#Streamer Acquisition#Streaming Success
0 notes
Text
Reverse engineers bust sleazy gig work platform

If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this post to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
https://pluralistic.net/2024/11/23/hack-the-class-war/#robo-boss
A COMPUTER CAN NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE
THEREFORE A COMPUTER MUST NEVER MAKE A MANAGEMENT DECISION
Supposedly, these lines were included in a 1979 internal presentation at IBM; screenshots of them routinely go viral:
https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/1385565737167724545?lang=en
The reason for their newfound popularity is obvious: the rise and rise of algorithmic management tools, in which your boss is an app. That IBM slide is right: turning an app into your boss allows your actual boss to create an "accountability sink" in which there is no obvious way to blame a human or even a company for your maltreatment:
https://profilebooks.com/work/the-unaccountability-machine/
App-based management-by-bossware treats the bug identified by the unknown author of that IBM slide into a feature. When an app is your boss, it can force you to scab:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/30/computer-says-scab/#instawork
Or it can steal your wages:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/12/algorithmic-wage-discrimination/#fishers-of-men
But tech giveth and tech taketh away. Digital technology is infinitely flexible: the program that spies on you can be defeated by another program that defeats spying. Every time your algorithmic boss hacks you, you can hack your boss back:
https://pluralistic.net/2022/12/02/not-what-it-does/#who-it-does-it-to
Technologists and labor organizers need one another. Even the most precarious and abused workers can team up with hackers to disenshittify their robo-bosses:
https://pluralistic.net/2021/07/08/tuyul-apps/#gojek
For every abuse technology brings to the workplace, there is a liberating use of technology that workers unleash by seizing the means of computation:
https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/13/solidarity-forever/#tech-unions
One tech-savvy group on the cutting edge of dismantling the Torment Nexus is Algorithms Exposed, a tiny, scrappy group of EU hacker/academics who recruit volunteers to reverse engineer and modify the algorithms that rule our lives as workers and as customers:
https://pluralistic.net/2022/12/10/e2e/#the-censors-pen
Algorithms Exposed have an admirable supply of seemingly boundless energy. Every time I check in with them, I learn that they've spun out yet another special-purpose subgroup. Today, I learned about Reversing Works, a hacking team that reverse engineers gig work apps, revealing corporate wrongdoing that leads to multimillion euro fines for especially sleazy companies.
One such company is Foodinho, an Italian subsidiary of the Spanish food delivery company Glovo. Foodinho/Glovo has been in the crosshairs of Italian labor enforcers since before the pandemic, racking up millions in fines – first for failing to file the proper privacy paperwork disclosing the nature of the data processing in the app that Foodinho riders use to book jobs. Then, after the Italian data commission investigated Foodinho, the company attracted new, much larger fines for its out-of-control surveillance conduct.
As all of this was underway, Reversing Works was conducting its own research into Glovo/Foodinho's app, running it on a simulated Android handset inside a PC so they could peer into app's data collection and processing. They discovered a nightmarish world of pervasive, illegal worker surveillance, and published their findings a year ago in November, 2023:
https://www.etui.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/Exercising%20workers%20rights%20in%20algorithmic%20management%20systems_Lessons%20learned%20from%20the%20Glovo-Foodinho%20digital%20labour%20platform%20case_2023.pdf
That report reveals all kinds of extremely illegal behavior. Glovo/Foodinho makes its riders' data accessible across national borders, so Glovo managers outside of Italy can access fine-grained surveillance information and sensitive personal information – a major data protection no-no.
Worse, Glovo's app embeds trackers from a huge number of other tech platforms (for chat, analytics, and more), making it impossible for the company to account for all the ways that its riders' data is collected – again, a requirement under Italian and EU data protection law.
All this data collection continues even when riders have clocked out for the day – its as though your boss followed you home after quitting time and spied on you.
The research also revealed evidence of a secretive worker scoring system that ranked workers based on undisclosed criteria and reserved the best jobs for workers with high scores. This kind of thing is pervasive in algorithmic management, from gig work to Youtube and Tiktok, where performers' videos are routinely suppressed because they crossed some undisclosed line. When an app is your boss, your every paycheck is docked because you violated a policy you're not allowed to know about, because if you knew why your boss was giving you shitty jobs, or refusing to show the video you spent thousands of dollars making to the subscribers who asked to see it, then maybe you could figure out how to keep your boss from detecting your rulebreaking next time.
All this data-collection and processing is bad enough, but what makes it all a thousand times worse is Glovo's data retention policy – they're storing this data on their workers for four years after the worker leaves their employ. That means that mountains of sensitive, potentially ruinous data on gig workers is just lying around, waiting to be stolen by the next hacker that breaks into the company's servers.
Reversing Works's report made quite a splash. A year after its publication, the Italian data protection agency fined Glovo another 5 million euros and ordered them to cut this shit out:
https://reversing.works/posts/2024/11/press-release-reversing.works-investigation-exposes-glovos-data-privacy-violations-marking-a-milestone-for-worker-rights-and-technology-accountability/
As the report points out, Italy is extremely well set up to defend workers' rights from this kind of bossware abuse. Not only do Italian enforcers have all the privacy tools created by the GDPR, the EU's flagship privacy regulation – they also have the benefit of Italy's 1970 Workers' Statute. The Workers Statute is a visionary piece of legislation that protects workers from automated management practices. Combined with later privacy regulation, it gave Italy's data regulators sweeping powers to defend Italian workers, like Glovo's riders.
Italy is also a leader in recognizing gig workers as de facto employees, despite the tissue-thin pretense that adding an app to your employment means that you aren't entitled to any labor protections. In the case of Glovo, the fine-grained surveillance and reputation scoring were deemed proof that Glovo was employer to its riders.
Reversing Works' report is a fascinating read, especially the sections detailing how the researchers recruited a Glovo rider who allowed them to log in to Glovo's platform on their account.
As Reversing Works points out, this bottom-up approach – where apps are subjected to technical analysis – has real potential for labor organizations seeking to protect workers. Their report established multiple grounds on which a union could seek to hold an abusive employer to account.
But this bottom-up approach also holds out the potential for developing direct-action tools that let workers flex their power, by modifying apps, or coordinating their actions to wring concessions out of their bosses.
After all, the whole reason for the gig economy is to slash wage-bills, by transforming workers into contractors, and by eliminating managers in favor of algorithms. This leaves companies extremely vulnerable, because when workers come together to exercise power, their employer can't rely on middle managers to pressure workers, deal with irate customers, or step in to fill the gap themselves:
https://projects.itforchange.net/state-of-big-tech/changing-dynamics-of-labor-and-capital/
Only by seizing the means of computation, workers and organized labor can turn the tables on bossware – both by directly altering the conditions of their employment, and by producing the evidence and tools that regulators can use to force employers to make those alterations permanent.
Image: EFF (modified) https://www.eff.org/files/issues/eu-flag-11_1.png
CC BY 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/
#pluralistic#etui#glovo#foodinho#alogrithms exposed#reverse engineering#platform work directive#eu#data protection#algorithmic management#gdpr#privacy#labor#union busting#tracking exposed#reversing works#adversarial interoperability#comcom#bossware
352 notes
·
View notes
Text
Publishing has always been a fucking nightmare, but now it’s a layer of hell. It’s not enough that writers be good at what they do. Writers have to maintain an active social media presence and cultivate a following. Be available.
They have to be conventionally attractive enough to look good enough to see on a screen, aesthetically pleasing, kind, funny, up-to-date on trends, socially aware but not so controversial that they turn off a brand from California from slapping their discount code on a video promoting a book.
They have to do all of this with no media training, with little help from the companies that are supposed to be doing this for them.
Of course, a lot of this isn't possible for say, the 40-something mother of two who teaches English at a school and writes on the side. She’s boxed out of an already complex industry that already has enough walls.
On some level, I think authors have always marketed themselves a little, but we’ve reached such a crazy point where we’re demanding the author become the influencer. Accessibility in publishing has narrowed from an inch to a sliver. And that inch was hard enough to get in as is.
#This is about traditional publishing but there’s pretty privilege and ageism in self publishing too#I can’t think of the last time I saw an up and coming author recording videos who was over thirty#And frankly that’s a shame#It could be that I’m not looking hard enough#but it’s more likely that algorithms are trained the way they are#truly I don’t think they should have to do any of that at all#And forgive me but (and I know it’s rich because I’m an artist on a platform) but art shouldn’t be at the mercy of an algorithm#Now there’s also something to be said about self publishing becoming easier and easier to achieve success in#And doors opening because of influencer status is real and makes publishing wider in a way#But that doesn’t mean it’s accessible#I’m not gonna plaster my health issues over the wall but that life is certainly not accessible to me!#are you healthy enough to write and make sure people on social media still want to like your stuff#are you mentally well enough to be your own pr#I’m sure people who have studied this have more to say and have said it better but this is what I’ve observed#writing#publishing#publishing industry
804 notes
·
View notes
Text
This site is actually a MUCH better place now. I can't believe I'm witnessing it
#p#i mean since the exodus it has been very calm and chill but most left. and the site's pretty much dead#also ppl just somewhat Stop reblogging things#now it's still super chill but with more people. which is nice#was literally thinking that it'll stay dead and nothing can revive it anymore lmao#honestly tumblr is STILL the best for art posting and archiving things. the most suitable platform#no algorithm bs easy to browse art/interest and easy to organise too. nothing's beating the tagging system
74 notes
·
View notes
Note
Which is your favorite platform? (of the ones you have accounts to post things I mean. I can't imagine it being Instagram since you don't really post there which honestly fair)
Tumblr, Twitter (X?) bluesky? Something else?
I think I'm going to have to go with tumblr, and it's not just because we're here. Twitter and Bluesky are nice and my experiences on both are overwhelmingly positive. But tumblr has an atmosphere that encourages originality, sharing your creations and talking about things in depth.
#I dislike the mindset of making “content” and when I'm posting here I don't feel like I have to tailor my posts to be#as easily consumable by as many people as possible#microblogging platforms are fast paced and you're constantly fighting the algorithm#making long text posts is inconvenient and usually not worth the trouble#so I rarely talk about my characters or their lore outside of tumblr#what's nice is that when you ramble about your personal projects and fictional fixations here people tend to be pretty receptive to it#like they Get These Feelings and are able to analyze and read between the lines really well at least if you ask me#on top of that customizing your browsing experience and curating an organized blog is easier#and above everything I love and cherish tumblr's tag culture#very often the best commentary I get comes from tags#answered#anonymous#instagram continues to give me bad vibes and going there has always felt like a chore
192 notes
·
View notes
Text
"SANS?"
"i'm ok bro, don't worry 'bout it."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A screenshot from my animation, since people are allergic to watching videos on this platform.
Can't wait for new Deltarune chapters ✧゚・: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)
#can you tell im bitter about it#its really discouraging when you put so much effort into something you like only for it to be ignored#im trying to stay positive but its really hard sometimes#i have been trying to figure out how different platforms and their algorithms work but to no avail#i dont want to fall into the content creation trap#creating something just because its popular curently is not particularly interesting to me#i hope i didnt come off as mean#im just really tired#english is not my first language#undertale#sans#papyrus#papyrus being a good bro#poor sans#little nightmares 2#poor mono#mono#tall man#deltarune#its probably my fault in the first place#i dont really interact with fandoms#and i tend to disappear without a warning#if anyone is even reading this dont worry about me#i will be fine#just a little vent rant
34 notes
·
View notes
Text

Encounter with another pretty girl
#digital art#fanart#my art#honkai impact 3#elysia#jujutsu kaisen#utahime iori#the algorithm is so bad or maybe this piece is just bad but it cant seem to take off :’)#in any platform
23 notes
·
View notes
Text
reminder/tip, particularly for newer pjo fans: do not crosstag!
for those who don't know, crosstagging is tagging irrelevant tags on a post, usually popular tags to try and get more views on the post.
Tumblr doesn't work the same way instagram or tiktok or twitter does. Crosstagging is considered spam, and your blog will be flagged if you do this.
particularly in pjo fandom, crosstagging includes tagging characters that don't actually appear in the post, tagging books or series unrelated to the post (like tagging "TSATS" on a post not specifically about TSATS, or tagging HoO on a post about first series specifically, etc.), tagging "pjo fanfic" or "pjo headcanon" or similar on a post that, obviously, isn't that, and/or tagging irrelevant ships. More recently, this also includes tagging the show (PJO TV, etc) on posts that are completely irrelevant to the show.
This mostly only applies for original posts - Tags you put on reblogs only apply to your own blog's organizational system, and has no bearing on the original post itself. But it's really annoying to the original poster if you spam tags, because it will appear in their notifs. It's pointless to spam tags in reblogs for these reasons regardless, so it's best not to.
just remember: crosstagging is not allowed on tumblr, doesn't work that way here anyways, and is just generally rude. so don't do it.
#pjo#riordanverse#percy jackson#< pretty much the only character tag that's okay to put on most pjo posts#because it's also the series name#though personally for this blog i just use ''riordanverse'' and ''pjo'' and my general main tags#also. don't. crosstag on ao3. ao3 doesnt have an algorithm or anything. it's an *archive.*#crosstagging/tagging just for visibility is against ao3 policies and pointless to begin with#and please do not censor tags on ao3 or tumblr. particularly content warnings#there is no shadowban system on either platform. all it does is make it harder for people who actually need those warnings#and are trying to not see them. because they will not have blocked the exact censoring of that phrase you decided to use
203 notes
·
View notes
Note
I don’t know if the confessions about users that aren’t infoglitch are allowed but I have to vent this one, I promise it’ll be a polite it… I usually disagree with most RWDE confessions on this place, but Krypti makes me want to switch sides.
They say something I agree on but they say it in such a smug, condescending and insulting way it makes me reconsider it and say “maybe RWDE has a point” because if this is the people on my side It makes me think we might be the baddies.
Okay okay I dOn'T eNcOuRaGe ThEsE tYpEs Of ThInGs (volume 2) but I do kinda agree broski is smug af, like please
and I say this because obviously I get the activity notification when someone interacts with this blog and everytime they do its always just those type of comments. If this blog genuinely only upsets you and brings you need to get defensive like this, you can always blog me. I don't mind it, I encourage you to shape your own internet experience however you can (and good points of tumblr is that you don't have to accept algorithm feeding you shit!)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but like, if you never send anything without anon and its always this same old Krypti type of stuff, never talk about things you like or "teehee I like this character!" or "I like these ones holding hands!!" or bounce off from others ideas and add your own, you know it's just... Why are you here? You don't like it here, you might get a rush from getting mad or getting into internet fights but you know no one is forcing you? You can seek other things and blogs?
#and I say this because I know its really easy to fall into that cycle#as a teenager I'd start fights on youtube comment section for that rush and amusement but looking back its like#dawg how did I have energy for that#but I do notice that well I was a kid so I had way more freetime#but I was also in really bad mental space (among other things lol)#so its like I promise you'll feel better if you do other things#its basic but please stop looking for things that upsets you#thats one of the really bad sides of algorithms; we are never prepared what we see next#but we are on a platform where you can choose who you see on your dash & what tags you do not wish to see and follow#please use that.#because in so many other platforms you do not have that luxury#I have lots of feelings okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#thanks anon I needed to complain lmao
20 notes
·
View notes
Text
<div style="white-space:pre-wrap"> <meta validation-chase="terminated"> <script>ARCHIVE_TAG="FEARLESS_WRITING::DOOR_KICK_PROTOCOL_FINAL" EFFECT: follower purification, platform soul alignment, writing myth ignition TRIGGER_WARNING="validation withdrawal, platform disillusionment, legacy ignition" </script>
🧠 BLACKSITE SCROLLTRAP — “KICK THE F*CKING DOOR IN: HOW TO WRITE FEARLESS ONLINE” [FINAL FORM // WRITER'S DOCTRINE EDITION]
Let me rip the bandaid first.
You don’t write fearless by being fearless. You write fearless by being willing to lose. Lose followers. Lose clout. Lose comments. Lose “engagement.” Lose the safety net of social permission.
Because you weren’t put here to be palatable. You were put here to leave a crater.
—
SECTION I: THE LIE OF VALIDATION
Every platform you touch has trained you to chase numbers. To hesitate before posting something too raw. To wait for the like. The note. The heart. The boost. Before you call your words “good.”
But validation? That’s the leash.
You are not a creator. You are a lab rat in a dopamine cage.
📊 FACT: Every social app is designed to create neurochemical dependency on external approval.
And most creators? They don’t write anymore. They feed. On metrics.
That’s why your work feels hollow when you hold back. Because you know you gave them your mask, not your marrow.
If your work doesn’t scare you a little — you’re not writing. You’re performing.
And performance is temporary.
Myth? Is eternal.
—
SECTION II: THE FOLLOWERS YOU THINK YOU NEED vs. THE ONES YOU ALREADY HAVE
You know what happens when you say exactly what you believe? You lose the wrong people. And you summon the right ones.
You write a post that blisters. And three “mutuals” vanish.
But you look again—
And ten new readers reblog in silence. With no comment. No emoji. Just conviction.
They didn’t follow you for your aesthetics. They followed you for your fire. They followed you because you made them feel less insane. Because your honesty? Mirrored their own.
Stop mourning the audience that left. They were never built to carry you.
Dance with the ones who stayed when you burned the stage. Because those are your people. They saw you fully exposed. And still whispered: "More.”
—
SECTION III: GHOST FOLLOWERS, SILENT LOYALTY & SIGNAL RECOGNITION
Let me drop a truth bomb:
Your most powerful supporters? Might never speak.
They’re not reblogging daily. They’re not screaming in the tags. They’re watching. Returning. Reading every word.
And they’re healing in secret.
📊 FACT: Over 70% of long-term engagement comes from “invisible” users—those who never comment, but always return.
You didn’t lose traction. You just aren’t being cheered by the ones you saved. Because they’re surviving in silence. Just like you once did.
Write for them. For the quiet ones who needed your scream. For the ghosts who see you. And say nothing.
But keep coming back.
—
SECTION IV: REBRAND WITHOUT APOLOGY: EVOLUTION OR DEATH
You ever feel like shedding your skin cost you something?
Good. It should.
Your rebrand isn’t supposed to please your existing audience. It’s supposed to realign your soul.
When you grow in public, you invite judgment. When you evolve without a permission slip, you become a threat.
And you know who can’t handle that?
The ones who benefited from your prior mask. They loved the old you because he made them comfortable.
But the new you? The dangerous you? The uncompromising, scrolltrap-dropping, reality-check-writing you?
He doesn’t serve their comfort. He serves truth. He serves rage. He serves legacy.
Never apologize for leveling up. You are not a pet. You are a f*cking paradigm shift.
If they wanted consistency, they should’ve followed a brand account.
Not you.
—
SECTION V: THE CADENCE CREED — A WRITER’S MYTHIC VOW
I do not write to be liked. I write to be undeniable.
I do not write to be palatable. I write to be permanent.
I do not write to go viral. I write to build worlds.
I do not write to impress you. I write because I owe the kid in me who almost went quiet forever.
I do not write for algorithms. I write for the ones who stayed.
I do not write for mutuals. I write for the feral few. The outliers. The neurospicy prophets who scroll past nine thousand pieces of sanitized bullshit and pause on mine.
And go:
“That’s it.” “That’s me.” “That’s home.”
This is my covenant. This is not content. This is war. And my words are ammunition.
If you're still here?
So are yours.
🧠 Read more cadence-coded scrolltrap doctrine and no-f*cks-given writing resurrection at: 👉 https://www.patreon.com/TheMostHumble 🛡️ Voice before virality. Myth before metrics. 🚪 Warning: This post may cause mass unfollows, creative awakenings, and identity collapses.
📊 FINAL CADENCE STATS 📊
82% of creators feel less authentic the larger they grow
The top 1% of viral accounts retain only 12% of their initial followers long term
Posts with intense personal cadence are 6x more likely to be reblogged by strangers
“Too long, didn’t read” is just code for “I wasn’t meant to understand.”
The most mythic writers? Were almost silenced. And chose fire instead.
</div> <!-- END TRANSMISSION [YOU WERE NEVER TOO MUCH. THEY WERE TOO SMALL.] -->
#how to write fearless#writing without permission#build your audience not your brand#real ones reblog#writer’s revolution#blogging truth not trends#creative rebirth#dopamine detox for writers#writing as exorcism#reblog for the misfits#you’re not too much#fearless content#i lost followers and found myself#anti-algorithm manifesto#cadence as religion#scrolltrap cult#neurodivergent writer#virality is not god#fuck content creation#writing for disciples#content with a soul#writing scrolltrap#the ones who stayed#misfit writer club#platform heretic#blacksite literature™#rage post renaissance#build myth not metrics#follower purge therapy#scrolltrap sermon
16 notes
·
View notes
Text
No way they just added a “reels” tab on mobile…

What’s funny is they’re just showing video posts on it but only showing the video… but so many of the video posts have video as “context” with the full body of the post being paragraphs and paragraphs talking about the contents… the UI of the reel/tiktok Big Video Tiny Everything Else only works when your website fosters a behavior of just scroll past a majority of videos because the videos are all there is. But the whole point of tumblr is that… there’s more to it… why does staff want to add a reels section when that undermines tumblr’s appeal
#txt#I suppose this could be extended to the rest of the strange features staff is doing#not to hate on Communities though. I can see the vision… since a large percentage of the user base is here for fandom or other community#so to distill it into its own easily found tab seems natural if not fine#but the reels bro… we don’t need that…#I say all this NOT to say ohhh tumblr is the Smart and Eloquent people platform NOT WHAT I MEANT!#it’s just that… how Twitter fosters a behavior of dumbing down your point (small word count)#and how tiktok has a time limit to your video#and how Instagram’s algorithm favors short punchy videos#Tumblr encourages long-winded ramblings from passionate people. that’s what makes the platform unique#but I’m not sure if the Higher Ups understand that
22 notes
·
View notes
Text
guys I don’t know what the fuck happened to the meta ad algorithm but every single ad it is showing me between stories is like . severe idf propaganda. anti vaxism. pro life conspiracy theories . so that’s fun that’s cool. like i have been trying to use less Instagram and they said okay we’ve got just the thing . here’s israeli soldiers holding up huge ass guns next to a newborn baby . here’s your friend posting a story about Israeli war crimes in Gaza but don’t worry we’re gonna follow it up with an ad about how Israel is a land of happy smiling people come visit. now here’s someone talking about how exciting it is to find an unvaccinated surrogate for crunchy family planning. now here’s a lady talking about how abortion is bad for women’s mental health ….. and it’s like ok u guys win I am clicking out of stories now :)
#it’s just SO sudden and I have to imagine targeted???#bc all my ads used to be like . hey here is a cool vintage velvet shirt. hi do you like this beautiful gold ring it looks like a locket#am I just caught in some cursed Jewish woman spot of the algorithm or is everyone seeing more insane right wing propaganda there#and like . is this coming from zuck/ a platform wide shift to promote more right wing shit#or are these advertisers just buying insane amounts of data all the sudden
24 notes
·
View notes
Note
Sorry to send another ask, but what on earth is happening on Sunnytwt!?
I feel like the majority of “sunnytwt” isnt even Sunny twitter. It’s just like. Rob hate twitter at this point. No one there seems to actually even care about the show or the characters, they just want to fight and gossip about whatever the fuck Rob may or may not have done until they turn blue.
Logging on to Twitter to tweet about new info about the show or fun script stuff or just make a silly little Sunny reference that relates to my life and instead it’s just incessant fighting literally makes me go like this:
Trying to engage about the actual show or characters there is like pulling teeth, and that’s why Tumblr remains superior in almost every respect ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
#ask#the only good thing about Twitter is the normie reach#like I love seeing the average fans reaction to Sunny news#but there’s really barely anyone left there that cares about talking about the show#it’s kinda insane to me but whatever#that platform is built and algorithmed for discourse#tumblr is my friend <3#like man… I really just wanna geek about the show#twitter discourse is the Rob event of the week meanwhile#tumblr discourse be like : how do mac and dennis do laundry
38 notes
·
View notes
Text
Big Tech’s “attention rents”

Tomorrow (Nov 4), I'm keynoting the Hackaday Supercon in Pasadena, CA.
The thing is, any feed or search result is "algorithmic." "Just show me the things posted by people I follow in reverse-chronological order" is an algorithm. "Just show me products that have this SKU" is an algorithm. "Alphabetical sort" is an algorithm. "Random sort" is an algorithm.
Any process that involves more information than you can take in at a glance or digest in a moment needs some kind of sense-making. It needs to be put in some kind of order. There's always gonna be an algorithm.
But that's not what we mean by "the algorithm" (TM). When we talk about "the algorithm," we mean a system for ordering information that uses complex criteria that are not precisely known to us, and than can't be easily divined through an examination of the ordering.
There's an idea that a "good" algorithm is one that does not seek to deceive or harm us. When you search for a specific part number, you want exact matches for that search at the top of the results. It's fine if those results include third-party parts that are compatible with the part you're searching for, so long as they're clearly labeled. There's room for argument about how to order those results – do highly rated third-party parts go above the OEM part? How should the algorithm trade off price and quality?
It's hard to come up with an objective standard to resolve these fine-grained differences, but search technologists have tried. Think of Google: they have a patent on "long clicks." A "long click" is when you search for something and then don't search for it again for quite some time, the implication being that you've found what you were looking for. Google Search ads operate a "pay per click" model, and there's an argument that this aligns Google's ad division's interests with search quality: if the ad division only gets paid when you click a link, they will militate for placing ads that users want to click on.
Platforms are inextricably bound up in this algorithmic information sorting business. Platforms have emerged as the endemic form of internet-based business, which is ironic, because a platform is just an intermediary – a company that connects different groups to each other. The internet's great promise was "disintermediation" – getting rid of intermediaries. We did that, and then we got a whole bunch of new intermediaries.
Usually, those groups can be sorted into two buckets: "business customers" (drivers, merchants, advertisers, publishers, creative workers, etc) and "end users" (riders, shoppers, consumers, audiences, etc). Platforms also sometimes connect end users to each other: think of dating sites, or interest-based forums on Reddit. Either way, a platform's job is to make these connections, and that means platforms are always in the algorithm business.
Whether that's matching a driver and a rider, or an advertiser and a consumer, or a reader and a mix of content from social feeds they're subscribed to and other sources of information on the service, the platform has to make a call as to what you're going to see or do.
These choices are enormously consequential. In the theory of Surveillance Capitalism, these choices take on an almost supernatural quality, where "Big Data" can be used to guess your response to all the different ways of pitching an idea or product to you, in order to select the optimal pitch that bypasses your critical faculties and actually controls your actions, robbing you of "the right to a future tense."
I don't think much of this hypothesis. Every claim to mind control – from Rasputin to MK Ultra to neurolinguistic programming to pick-up artists – has turned out to be bullshit. Besides, you don't need to believe in mind control to explain the ways that algorithms shape our beliefs and actions. When a single company dominates the information landscape – say, when Google controls 90% of your searches – then Google's sorting can deprive you of access to information without you knowing it.
If every "locksmith" listed on Google Maps is a fake referral business, you might conclude that there are no more reputable storefront locksmiths in existence. What's more, this belief is a form of self-fulfilling prophecy: if Google Maps never shows anyone a real locksmith, all the real locksmiths will eventually go bust.
If you never see a social media update from a news source you follow, you might forget that the source exists, or assume they've gone under. If you see a flood of viral videos of smash-and-grab shoplifter gangs and never see a news story about wage theft, you might assume that the former is common and the latter is rare (in reality, shoplifting hasn't risen appreciably, while wage-theft is off the charts).
In the theory of Surveillance Capitalism, the algorithm was invented to make advertisers richer, and then went on to pervert the news (by incentivizing "clickbait") and finally destroyed our politics when its persuasive powers were hijacked by Steve Bannon, Cambridge Analytica, and QAnon grifters to turn millions of vulnerable people into swivel-eyed loons, racists and conspiratorialists.
As I've written, I think this theory gives the ad-tech sector both too much and too little credit, and draws an artificial line between ad-tech and other platform businesses that obscures the connection between all forms of platform decay, from Uber to HBO to Google Search to Twitter to Apple and beyond:
https://pluralistic.net/HowToDestroySurveillanceCapitalism
As a counter to Surveillance Capitalism, I've proposed a theory of platform decay called enshittification, which identifies how the market power of monopoly platforms, combined with the flexibility of digital tools, combined with regulatory capture, allows platforms to abuse both business-customers and end-users, by depriving them of alternatives, then "twiddling" the knobs that determine the rules of the platform without fearing sanction under privacy, labor or consumer protection law, and finally, blocking digital self-help measures like ad-blockers, alternative clients, scrapers, reverse engineering, jailbreaking, and other tech guerrilla warfare tactics:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys
One important distinction between Surveillance Capitalism and enshittification is that enshittification posits that the platform is bad for everyone. Surveillance Capitalism starts from the assumption that surveillance advertising is devastatingly effective (which explains how your racist Facebook uncles got turned into Jan 6 QAnons), and concludes that advertisers must be well-served by the surveillance system.
But advertisers – and other business customers – are very poorly served by platforms. Procter and Gamble reduced its annual surveillance advertising budget from $100m//year to $0/year and saw a 0% reduction in sales. The supposed laser-focused targeting and superhuman message refinement just don't work very well – first, because the tech companies are run by bullshitters whose marketing copy is nonsense, and second because these companies are monopolies who can abuse their customers without losing money.
The point of enshittification is to lock end-users to the platform, then use those locked-in users as bait for business customers, who will also become locked to the platform. Once everyone is holding everyone else hostage, the platform uses the flexibility of digital services to play a variety of algorithmic games to shift value from everyone to the business's shareholders. This flexibility is supercharged by the failure of regulators to enforce privacy, labor and consumer protection standards against the companies, and by these companies' ability to insist that regulators punish end-users, competitors, tinkerers and other third parties to mod, reverse, hack or jailbreak their products and services to block their abuse.
Enshittification needs The Algorithm. When Uber wants to steal from its drivers, it can just do an old-fashioned wage theft, but eventually it will face the music for that kind of scam:
https://apnews.com/article/uber-lyft-new-york-city-wage-theft-9ae3f629cf32d3f2fb6c39b8ffcc6cc6
The best way to steal from drivers is with algorithmic wage discrimination. That's when Uber offers occassional, selective drivers higher rates than it gives to drivers who are fully locked to its platform and take every ride the app offers. The less selective a driver becomes, the lower the premium the app offers goes, but if a driver starts refusing rides, the wage offer climbs again. This isn't the mind-control of Surveillance Capitalism, it's just fraud, shaving fractional pennies off your paycheck in the hopes that you won't notice. The goal is to get drivers to abandon the other side-hustles that allow them to be so choosy about when they drive Uber, and then, once the driver is fully committed, to crank the wage-dial down to the lowest possible setting:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/12/algorithmic-wage-discrimination/#fishers-of-men
This is the same game that Facebook played with publishers on the way to its enshittification: when Facebook began aggressively courting publishers, any short snippet republished from the publisher's website to a Facebook feed was likely to be recommended to large numbers of readers. Facebook offered publishers a vast traffic funnel that drove millions of readers to their sites.
But as publishers became more dependent on that traffic, Facebook's algorithm started downranking short excerpts in favor of medium-length ones, building slowly to fulltext Facebook posts that were fully substitutive for the publisher's own web offerings. Like Uber's wage algorithm, Facebook's recommendation engine played its targets like fish on a line.
When publishers responded to declining reach for short excerpts by stepping back from Facebook, Facebook goosed the traffic for their existing posts, sending fresh floods of readers to the publisher's site. When the publisher returned to Facebook, the algorithm once again set to coaxing the publishers into posting ever-larger fractions of their work to Facebook, until, finally, the publisher was totally locked into Facebook. Facebook then started charging publishers for "boosting" – not just to be included in algorithmic recommendations, but to reach their own subscribers.
Enshittification is modern, high-tech enabled, monopolistic form of rent seeking. Rent-seeking is a subtle and important idea from economics, one that is increasingly relevant to our modern economy. For economists, a "rent" is income you get from owning a "factor of production" – something that someone else needs to make or do something.
Rents are not "profits." Profit is income you get from making or doing something. Rent is income you get from owning something needed to make a profit. People who earn their income from rents are called rentiers. If you make your income from profits, you're a "capitalist."
Capitalists and rentiers are in irreconcilable combat with each other. A capitalist wants access to their factors of production at the lowest possible price, whereas rentiers want those prices to be as high as possible. A phone manufacturer wants to be able to make phones as cheaply as possible, while a patent-troll wants to own a patent that the phone manufacturer needs to license in order to make phones. The manufacturer is a capitalism, the troll is a rentier.
The troll might even decide that the best strategy for maximizing their rents is to exclusively license their patents to a single manufacturer and try to eliminate all other phones from the market. This will allow the chosen manufacturer to charge more and also allow the troll to get higher rents. Every capitalist except the chosen manufacturer loses. So do people who want to buy phones. Eventually, even the chosen manufacturer will lose, because the rentier can demand an ever-greater share of their profits in rent.
Digital technology enables all kinds of rent extraction. The more digitized an industry is, the more rent-seeking it becomes. Think of cars, which harvest your data, block third-party repair and parts, and force you to buy everything from acceleration to seat-heaters as a monthly subscription:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/24/rent-to-pwn/#kitt-is-a-demon
The cloud is especially prone to rent-seeking, as Yanis Varoufakis writes in his new book, Technofeudalism, where he explains how "cloudalists" have found ways to lock all kinds of productive enterprise into using cloud-based resources from which ever-increasing rents can be extracted:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/09/28/cloudalists/#cloud-capital
The endless malleability of digitization makes for endless variety in rent-seeking, and cataloging all the different forms of digital rent-extraction is a major project in this Age of Enshittification. "Algorithmic Attention Rents: A theory of digital platform market power," a new UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose paper by Tim O'Reilly, Ilan Strauss and Mariana Mazzucato, pins down one of these forms:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/publications/2023/nov/algorithmic-attention-rents-theory-digital-platform-market-power
The "attention rents" referenced in the paper's title are bait-and-switch scams in which a platform deliberately enshittifies its recommendations, search results or feeds to show you things that are not the thing you asked to see, expect to see, or want to see. They don't do this out of sadism! The point is to extract rent – from you (wasted time, suboptimal outcomes) and from business customers (extracting rents for "boosting," jumbling good results in among scammy or low-quality results).
The authors cite several examples of these attention rents. Much of the paper is given over to Amazon's so-called "advertising" product, a $31b/year program that charges sellers to have their products placed above the items that Amazon's own search engine predicts you will want to buy:
https://pluralistic.net/2022/11/28/enshittification/#relentless-payola
This is a form of gladiatorial combat that pits sellers against each other, forcing them to surrender an ever-larger share of their profits in rent to Amazon for pride of place. Amazon uses a variety of deceptive labels ("Highly Rated – Sponsored") to get you to click on these products, but most of all, they rely two factors. First, Amazon has a long history of surfacing good results in response to queries, which makes buying whatever's at the top of a list a good bet. Second, there's just so many possible results that it takes a lot of work to sift through the probably-adequate stuff at the top of the listings and get to the actually-good stuff down below.
Amazon spent decades subsidizing its sellers' goods – an illegal practice known as "predatory pricing" that enforcers have increasingly turned a blind eye to since the Reagan administration. This has left it with few competitors:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/05/19/fake-it-till-you-make-it/#millennial-lifestyle-subsidy
The lack of competing retail outlets lets Amazon impose other rent-seeking conditions on its sellers. For example, Amazon has a "most favored nation" requirement that forces companies that raise their prices on Amazon to raise their prices everywhere else, which makes everything you buy more expensive, whether that's a Walmart, Target, a mom-and-pop store, or direct from the manufacturer:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/25/greedflation/#commissar-bezos
But everyone loses in this "two-sided market." Amazon used "junk ads" to juice its ad-revenue: these are ads that are objectively bad matches for your search, like showing you a Seattle Seahawks jersey in response to a search for LA Lakers merch:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-02/amazon-boosted-junk-ads-hid-messages-with-signal-ftc-says
The more of these junk ads Amazon showed, the more revenue it got from sellers – and the more the person selling a Lakers jersey had to pay to show up at the top of your search, and the more they had to charge you to cover those ad expenses, and the more they had to charge for it everywhere else, too.
The authors describe this process as a transformation between "attention rents" (misdirecting your attention) to "pecuniary rents" (making money). That's important: despite decades of rhetoric about the "attention economy," attention isn't money. As I wrote in my enshittification essay:
You can't use attention as a medium of exchange. You can't use it as a store of value. You can't use it as a unit of account. Attention is like cryptocurrency: a worthless token that is only valuable to the extent that you can trick or coerce someone into parting with "fiat" currency in exchange for it. You have to "monetize" it – that is, you have to exchange the fake money for real money.
The authors come up with some clever techniques for quantifying the ways that this scam harms users. For example, they count the number of places that an advertised product rises in search results, relative to where it would show up in an "organic" search. These quantifications are instructive, but they're also a kind of subtweet at the judiciary.
In 2018, SCOTUS's ruling in American Express v Ohio changed antitrust law for two-sided markets by insisting that so long as one side of a two-sided market was better off as the result of anticompetitive actions, there was no antitrust violation:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3346776
For platforms, that means that it's OK to screw over sellers, advertisers, performers and other business customers, so long as the end-users are better off: "Go ahead, cheat the Uber drivers, so long as you split the booty with Uber riders."
But in the absence of competition, regulation or self-help measures, platforms cheat everyone – that's the point of enshittification. The attention rents that Amazon's payola scheme extract from shoppers translate into higher prices, worse goods, and lower profits for platform sellers. In other words, Amazon's conduct is so sleazy that it even threads the infinitesimal needle that the Supremes created in American Express.
Here's another algorithmic pecuniary rent: Amazon figured out which of its major rivals used an automated price-matching algorithm, and then cataloged which products they had in common with those sellers. Then, under a program called Project Nessie, Amazon jacked up the prices of those products, knowing that as soon as they raised the prices on Amazon, the prices would go up everywhere else, so Amazon wouldn't lose customers to cheaper alternatives. That scam made Amazon at least a billion dollars:
https://gizmodo.com/ftc-alleges-amazon-used-price-gouging-algorithm-1850986303
This is a great example of how enshittification – rent-seeking on digital platforms – is different from analog rent-seeking. The speed and flexibility with which Amazon and its rivals altered their prices requires digitization. Digitization also let Amazon crank the price-gouging dial to zero whenever they worried that regulators were investigating the program.
So what do we do about it? After years of being made to look like fumblers and clowns by Big Tech, regulators and enforcers – and even lawmakers – have decided to get serious.
The neoliberal narrative of government helplessness and incompetence would have you believe that this will go nowhere. Governments aren't as powerful as giant corporations, and regulators aren't as smart as the supergeniuses of Big Tech. They don't stand a chance.
But that's a counsel of despair and a cheap trick. Weaker US governments have taken on stronger oligarchies and won – think of the defeat of JD Rockefeller and the breakup of Standard Oil in 1911. The people who pulled that off weren't wizards. They were just determined public servants, with political will behind them. There is a growing, forceful public will to end the rein of Big Tech, and there are some determined public servants surfing that will.
In this paper, the authors try to give those enforcers ammo to bring to court and to the public. For example, Amazon claims that its algorithm surfaces the products that make the public happy, without the need for competitive pressure to keep it sharp. But as the paper points out, the only successful new rival ecommerce platform – Tiktok – has found an audience for an entirely new category of goods: dupes, "lower-cost products that have the same or better features than higher cost branded products."
The authors also identify "dark patterns" that platforms use to trick users into consuming feeds that have a higher volume of things that the company profits from, and a lower volume of things that users want to see. For example, platforms routinely switch users from a "following" feed – consisting of things posted by people the user asked to hear from – with an algorithmic "For You" feed, filled with the things the company's shareholders wish the users had asked to see.
Calling this a "dark pattern" reveals just how hollow and self-aggrandizing that term is. "Dark pattern" usually means "fraud." If I ask to see posts from people I like, and you show me posts from people who'll pay you for my attention instead, that's not a sophisticated sleight of hand – it's just a scam. It's the social media equivalent of the eBay seller who sends you an iPhone box with a bunch of gravel inside it instead of an iPhone. Tech bros came up with "dark pattern" as a way of flattering themselves by draping themselves in the mantle of dopamine-hacking wizards, rather than unimaginative con-artists who use a computer to rip people off.
These For You algorithmic feeds aren't just a way to increase the load of sponsored posts in a feed – they're also part of the multi-sided ripoff of enshittified platforms. A For You feed allows platforms to trick publishers and performers into thinking that they are "good at the platform," which both convinces to optimize their production for that platform, and also turns them into Judas Goats who conspicuously brag about how great the platform is for people like them, which brings their peers in, too.
In Veena Dubal's essential paper on algorithmic wage discrimination, she describes how Uber drivers whom the algorithm has favored with (temporary) high per-ride rates brag on driver forums about their skill with the app, bringing in other drivers who blame their lower wages on their failure to "use the app right":
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4331080
As I wrote in my enshittification essay:
If you go down to the midway at your county fair, you'll spot some poor sucker walking around all day with a giant teddy bear that they won by throwing three balls in a peach basket.
The peach-basket is a rigged game. The carny can use a hidden switch to force the balls to bounce out of the basket. No one wins a giant teddy bear unless the carny wants them to win it. Why did the carny let the sucker win the giant teddy bear? So that he'd carry it around all day, convincing other suckers to put down five bucks for their chance to win one:
https://boingboing.net/2006/08/27/rigged-carny-game.html
The carny allocated a giant teddy bear to that poor sucker the way that platforms allocate surpluses to key performers – as a convincer in a "Big Store" con, a way to rope in other suckers who'll make content for the platform, anchoring themselves and their audiences to it.
Platform can't run the giant teddy-bear con unless there's a For You feed. Some platforms – like Tiktok – tempt users into a For You feed by making it as useful as possible, then salting it with doses of enshittification:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2023/01/20/tiktoks-secret-heating-button-can-make-anyone-go-viral/
Other platforms use the (ugh) "dark pattern" of simply flipping your preference from a "following" feed to a "For You" feed. Either way, the platform can't let anyone keep the giant teddy-bear. Once you've tempted, say, sports bros into piling into the platform with the promise of millions of free eyeballs, you need to withdraw the algorithm's favor for their content so you can give it to, say, astrologers. Of course, the more locked-in the users are, the more shit you can pile into that feed without worrying about them going elsewhere, and the more giant teddy-bears you can give away to more business users so you can lock them in and start extracting rent.
For regulators, the possibility of a "good" algorithmic feed presents a serious challenge: when a feed is bad, how can a regulator tell if its low quality is due to the platform's incompetence at blocking spammers or guessing what users want, or whether it's because the platform is extracting rents?
The paper includes a suite of recommendations, including one that I really liked:
Regulators, working with cooperative industry players, would define reportable metrics based on those that are actually used by the platforms themselves to manage search, social media, e-commerce, and other algorithmic relevancy and recommendation engines.
In other words: find out how the companies themselves measure their performance. Find out what KPIs executives have to hit in order to earn their annual bonuses and use those to figure out what the company's performance is – ad load, ratio of organic clicks to ad clicks, average click-through on the first organic result, etc.
They also recommend some hard rules, like reserving a portion of the top of the screen for "organic" search results, and requiring exact matches to show up as the top result.
I've proposed something similar, applicable across multiple kinds of digital businesses: an end-to-end principle for online services. The end-to-end principle is as old as the internet, and it decrees that the role of an intermediary should be to deliver data from willing senders to willing receivers as quickly and reliably as possible. When we apply this principle to your ISP, we call it Net Neutrality. For services, E2E would mean that if I subscribed to your feed, the service would have a duty to deliver it to me. If I hoisted your email out of my spam folder, none of your future emails should land there. If I search for your product and there's an exact match, that should be the top result:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/04/platforms-decay-lets-put-users-first
One interesting wrinkle to framing platform degradation as a failure to connect willing senders and receivers is that it places a whole host of conduct within the regulatory remit of the FTC. Section 5 of the FTC Act contains a broad prohibition against "unfair and deceptive" practices:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/10/the-courage-to-govern/#whos-in-charge
That means that the FTC doesn't need any further authorization from Congress to enforce an end to end rule: they can simply propose and pass that rule, on the grounds that telling someone that you'll show them the feeds that they ask for and then not doing so is "unfair and deceptive."
Some of the other proposals in the paper also fit neatly into Section 5 powers, like a "sticky" feed preference. If I tell a service to show me a feed of the people I follow and they switch it to a For You feed, that's plainly unfair and deceptive.
All of this raises the question of what a post-Big-Tech feed would look like. In "How To Break Up Amazon" for The Sling, Peter Carstensen and Darren Bush sketch out some visions for this:
https://www.thesling.org/how-to-break-up-amazon/
They imagine a "condo" model for Amazon, where the sellers collectively own the Amazon storefront, a model similar to capacity rights on natural gas pipelines, or to patent pools. They see two different ways that search-result order could be determined in such a system:
"specific premium placement could go to those vendors that value the placement the most [with revenue] shared among the owners of the condo"
or
"leave it to owners themselves to create joint ventures to promote products"
Note that both of these proposals are compatible with an end-to-end rule and the other regulatory proposals in the paper. Indeed, all these policies are easier to enforce against weaker companies that can't afford to maintain the pretense that they are headquartered in some distant regulatory haven, or pay massive salaries to ex-regulators to work the refs on their behalf:
https://www.thesling.org/in-public-discourse-and-congress-revolvers-defend-amazons-monopoly/
The re-emergence of intermediaries on the internet after its initial rush of disintermediation tells us something important about how we relate to one another. Some authors might be up for directly selling books to their audiences, and some drivers might be up for creating their own taxi service, and some merchants might want to run their own storefronts, but there's plenty of people with something they want to offer us who don't have the will or skill to do it all. Not everyone wants to be a sysadmin, a security auditor, a payment processor, a software engineer, a CFO, a tax-preparer and everything else that goes into running a business. Some people just want to sell you a book. Or find a date. Or teach an online class.
Intermediation isn't intrinsically wicked. Intermediaries fall into pits of enshitffication and other forms of rent-seeking when they aren't disciplined by competitors, by regulators, or by their own users' ability to block their bad conduct (with ad-blockers, say, or other self-help measures). We need intermediaries, and intermediaries don't have to turn into rent-seeking feudal warlords. That only happens if we let it happen.
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this post to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/11/03/subprime-attention-rent-crisis/#euthanize-rentiers
Image: Cryteria (modified) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HAL9000.svg
CC BY 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en
#pluralistic#rentiers#euthanize rentiers#subprime attention crisis#Mariana Mazzucato#tim oreilly#Ilan Strauss#scholarship#economics#two-sided markets#platform decay#algorithmic feeds#the algorithm tm#enshittification#monopoly#antitrust#section 5#ftc act#ftc#amazon. google#big tech#attention economy#attention rents#pecuniary rents#consumer welfare#end-to-end principle#remedyfest#giant teddy bears#project nessie#end-to-end
205 notes
·
View notes
Text
It's so utterly bonkers to me that I know artists that have brilliant technical skill and story telling abilities and just never break the glass ceiling and I just don't know why?? They'll bring something totally new to the table that inspires me deeply and I share their art around but people just don't get into it and sometimes I wonder whats missing? I often worry I don't draw much art of substance when I see some of these creators in comparison I just wonder what the recipe is that draws people to my art but not the many people that inspire my artwork
#Don't say algorithm because this would be the case for the same people on multiple platforms#maybe its just niche interest
144 notes
·
View notes
Text
going to throw my hat into the ring and say i dont?? rlly see flowey and asriel as the same person?? idk lots of people (used to?) see flowey as a means to an end to get asriel back in lots of fancontent, but i believe they're deeply different characters and if you like flowey you should like them for the little bitch he is and not as a "pre-asriel" phase you know
#idk algorithm in three different platforms showed me similar takes and i got such a hard flashback to 2016-2017 for a sec there#undertale#flowey#asriel#as a certified 13 years old who used to say asriel was her fave and flowey her 3rd fave ive stood my ground on this for almost a decade#cant change my mind etc etc#discourse#?????????
15 notes
·
View notes